Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Corsair on October 03, 2004, 08:17:26 pm
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I hate bringing up the Israel-Palestine conflict here because it always devolves into senseless head-bashing but...
I just got word that one of my friends who lives in Gaza might have been killed this weekend. I've been frantically searching all sorts of news websites looking for names of casualties from the weekend. It's ridiculous...too many people dead. And for what?
It makes me wonder why the hell the world is so screwed up. It makes me thankful that I don't have to worry about going to school or going out of my house or spending a night on the town or even just sleeping at night because I might get shot or blown up.
I won't find out until tomorrow if what I heard is true...
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Anyone else think it'd be funny (in an ironic way) if, during one of these frequent bouts of land-grabbing, Sandwich ended up shooting some random HLPerson?
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My sympathies Corsair, it's always tragic when lives get lost so needlessly. I sincerely hope your friend's ok.
This is the most unfortunate consequence of the unrest in much of the world. It always ends up hurting people who want no part of the conflict.
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I thought they were pulling out.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Rictor
I thought they were pulling out.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
That was before Hamas lobbed a pair of rockets into Israel from Gaza. Now they're establishing a buffer zone before pulling out again. :sigh:
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remind me, was this before or after Israel assasinated a Hamas leader in Syria?
bah, the whole mess is FUBARed. it'll be fun trying to see if Sharon can get the settlers to leave without firing on them, or without a fullscale coup within the military.
and best of luck on finding your friend. I hope it turns out well.
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After. And it is one enormous fubar.
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I really hope your friend is alive, the situation in the reigon baffles me most of the time, some reasonable agrement should be found so this mess can be sorted out.
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Well, if Hamas behaved themselves, they wouldn't get slapped by the Israelis so often...
Tell your friend to move.
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It's just another bit of usless, cyclical violence. :sigh:
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It's not useless. It reduces the number of Muslims, Jews and poor people in the world.
I'd call that a plus.
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Originally posted by Corsair
That was before Hamas lobbed a pair of rockets into Israel from Gaza. Now they're establishing a buffer zone before pulling out again. :sigh:
no that was before hamas fired few kasams to sderot in israeli holyday and killed 2 childs. thats the reason, and for now there is 70 casualsits from the palastine side all are hamas men/armed men. so if your friend wasnt armed or in hamas u can be sure he didnt died.
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you can be sure this operation will be another week or 2, because the hamas still fireing at us.
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Originally posted by Fear
no that was before hamas fired few kasams to sderot in israeli holyday and killed 2 childs. thats the reason, and for now there is 70 casualsits from the palastine side all are hamas men/armed men.
Palestinian casualties are not exclusively Hamas, and of course include civillians.
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all of them were armed.
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Originally posted by Fear
all of them were armed.
Are you really so naieve as to think you can send an army into one of the most densely populated areas in the world and not have non-combatant civillian casualties?
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If only a few Christian Evangelist would have the guts to preach there... This way, all of the three major religion involved in killing/maiming/torturing for their faith would lose people daily. That would be the best thing that could happen :p
I respect all of those faith, but I don't respect what people have made of them.
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this ought to be settled David and Goliath style. The two sides send their strongest man, they fight to the death and to the winner go the spoils. Or better yet, Sharon vs Arafat, on pay per view. Now thats something I would watch.
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There is no hope...
Hamas does not recognise the right of Israel to exist.
Overtime in our battle against terrorism we have concluded that there is no one solution to this problem. This is an ongoing operation, an ongoing process and it will continue as long as our forces estimate it will take to carry out this operation whether it be a matter of days or weeks
Hamas...receives some funding from Iran but primarily relies on donations from Palestinian expatriates around the world and private benefactors, particularly in Western Europe, North America, and the Persian Gulf region.
Last month Saudi Arabia transferred $15.4 million in advance aid to the Palestinian Authority. The transfer was made to a controversial Arab League fund, a product of the recent Arab summit in Beirut. According to Arab spokesmen, the money was hurriedly contributed due to the dire plight of the Palestinian people as a result of "vicious Israeli aggression.”
The IDF is considered to be one of the most high-tech armies in the world, possessing top-of-the-line weapons and computer systems. Beside of purchasing American-made weapon systems (such as the M4A1 assult rifle, F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon jets and Apache helicopter), the IDF holds a large department of weapon develoment, Rafael (The Authority For Weapons Development), which develops new weapons and technology to the IDF. Most of the technologies are produced by the Israeli security industries including the IMI, Elbit, El-Op and the IAI.
And finally:
These chapters (40-48) contain one of most powerful arguments for the
existence of God. Through prophecies uttered by His servants hundreds
of years before they are fulfilled, we find evidence that God exists,
and that He is the God of Israel!
Belief in one God, Allah in Arabic, constitutes the very foundation of Islam. There is no deity except Allah. He is indivisible and absolutely transcendent. God is the Almighty, the Creator and the Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing and nothing is comparable to Him
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No news is good news and I didn't hear anything today so he may be okay.
Fear, he absolutely wasn't armed. This is a kid who believes in peace, knows some Israelis and is friends with them. There have been a bunch of kids killed in Gaza over the last few days. Not everybody is armed...so many civilians have been killed.
And Clave, it's not exactly easy to move.
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I understand. I just have been in one of those 'lets stab everyone' moods lately...
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well i hope it will end soon but this operating will countinue for a few week, if they will just stop firing the kasams.... god they dont understand they are dooming their own people.... if it will countinure this way palastine will have more than 200 deads by the end of the month.
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now why on earth do you think they're attacking Israel? Could it possible be the illegal and barbaric occupation of Gaza and the West Bank?
no, they have no reason, surely, they're just crazy is all.
or do you think that if Hamas & Co just stopped attacking, Israel would pull out?
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The conflict will only continue to get worse, there were a few glimmering chances at lasting peace but they are gone. In my view both (militant) sides are so bloddied that there is no right side, and the civilians on both sides are becoming so angry with each other that they are willing to do more and more to each other-regardless of cost. It just seems like such a massive waste of life. One of those things that just...doesn't make sense.
and I hope your friend is well.
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Originally posted by Rictor
now why on earth do you think they're attacking Israel? Could it possible be the illegal and barbaric occupation of Gaza and the West Bank?
no, they have no reason, surely, they're just crazy is all.
or do you think that if Hamas & Co just stopped attacking, Israel would pull out?
U know why did they start this operation? because the hamas didnt stopped firing kasams on israel... non-stop for over a year. THEY ARE ATTACKING! get it in your mind.
its thier fault now they are paying badly for it, the sad thing is that they are getting madder sending more "soldiers" to die.
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Yes, they're fighting the IDF. And if you were a Palestinian, would you do something differently? Wouldn't you fight for your land and your people instead of fleeing in the face of the enemy? You have just as much pride as they do and you'd do the exact same. Look at yourself in the mirror...Palestinians and Israelis are, at heart, the same.
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Originally posted by Fear
U know why did they start this operation? because the hamas didnt stopped firing kasams on israel... non-stop for over a year. THEY ARE ATTACKING! get it in your mind.
its thier fault now they are paying badly for it, the sad thing is that they are getting madder sending more "soldiers" to die.
And Israel is simply playing into their hands- stooping down to their level if you will - by acting the aggressor in return.
This tactic hasn't worked for..well, it hasn't ever worked - why should it make any difference now?
The only way Israel could solve the 'Palestinian problem' with the army would be genocide. Otherwise they're just acting as chief recruiting seargant for Hamas and the other militant organisations.
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we are protecting ourself from them.
thats all.if we didnt act they will find us weak and attack.
the strong will survive.
Originally posted by Corsair
Yes, they're fighting the IDF. And if you were a Palestinian, would you do something differently? Wouldn't you fight for your land and your people instead of fleeing in the face of the enemy? You have just as much pride as they do and you'd do the exact same. Look at yourself in the mirror...Palestinians and Israelis are, at heart, the same.
No. palestinians are like a child that cant admit he lost. u and the rest of the world will do the same as the palastinians if u were in that situation. for that im sure.
and if u were insteed of israel u will do the same acts israel is doing right now.
look at the mirror u are the same as us.
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That's right. All people are the same. The US (where I live) is doing the same in Iraq as Israel is doing in Palestine. If Americans were in the position of the Palestinians, they'd most likely be doing the same as the Palestinians are right now. If Israelis were in the same position as the Palestinians, they'd be doing the same. It's human nature.
The way out is for common sense to override human nature. Level-headed people have to prevail for there to be peace. Otherwise, they'll shoot rockets at you and you'll invade again. That'll piss them off and they'll shoot more rockets at you and then you'll invade again. Around and around we go, with no end in sight and no true beginning...both sides are at fault because you're BOTH like children that can't admit they're wrong. Nobody wins when innocents get killed.
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True.. everyword of it i belive.
and u can be sure it will last forever untill 1 side will lose and die.
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Originally posted by Fear
we are protecting ourself from them.
thats all.if we didnt act they will find us weak and attack.
the strong will survive.
They think they are protecting themselves from Israel. From the tanks shells that kill their children, from the bulldozers that crush their houses, and from the helicopters that kill bystanders firing on targets. This is them 'being strong', taking the same action which you want your own country to take, fighting in whatever way they can.
Originally posted by Fear
No. palestinians are like a child that cant admit he lost. u and the rest of the world will do the same as the palastinians if u were in that situation. for that im sure.
and if u were insteed of israel u will do the same acts israel is doing right now.
look at the mirror u are the same as us.
If I was in the same situation as Israel, I'd rather have a constructive solution rather than a never-ending cycle of violence. I'd want my government to at least act morally, not stoop to the level of those they are trying to fight. I'd want to see a country built which wasn't reviled by its every neighbour, and which wasn't constantly being criticised by the international community.
Yes, the Palestinians are losing. But so is Israel.
No-one wins in this. history has proven this, time and time again. Violence begets violence, and you're an idiot if you think this can solve anything. It won't even stop the rocket attacks, Hama will simply relocate somewhere else, or even just sneak in and out.
And all you end up with is more innocent blood spilled. See the other side. Understand them - what they do, why they do it, and how they see you. And if you can, maybe then there's still hope.
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i want the same country as u. but more than everything i want the world to stfu while we do our bussiness. because every time we act we got the france govermant whinig.the world isnt helping nor is media that show us as a bad side and them as a weak child. because they arent and i hope u understand it.
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Originally posted by Fear
i want the same country as u. but more than everything i want the world to stfu while we do our bussiness. because every time we act we got the france govermant whinig.the world isnt helping nor is media that show us as a bad side and them as a weak child. because they arent and i hope u understand it.
If you show a bad side, it will be seen by people. Patriotism is blind.
The world is 'whining', because a civillised government should be able to act in a more moral way. The world has a right to comment, because every Israeli action like this affects us. As long as there is a Palestinian situation, then there is conflict and instability between the western and muslim world.
And because the world wants a fair and equal solution, not a one sided one, you view that as not helping.
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Originally posted by Fear
and if u were insteed of israel u will do the same acts israel is doing right now.
Points at Northern Ireland. No. We wouldn't. The Brits tried it in the past but finally figured out that it didn't work and did something else.
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Pardon me putting in my 2 pence, but things neeed to be said (once again).
Pence #1: The IDF acts very morally. How many soldiers - reservists, with wives and children back home - lost their lives in Jenin in 2002 because the IDF made a decision to go house-to-house in the search for terrorists and explosives labs, as opposed to just carpet bombing the sh*t out of the whole region, world opinion be damned? I was there, risking my life right alongside every one of my unitmates - all so we could prevent the needless loss of Palestinian life. FFS, sometimes I look at the latest suicide bomber/ess and think that the Israelis care more for the Palestinians than they care for themselves! DAMN them for the hatred they pour into their own children!
Pence #2: Listen, and listen good. Ever since Sharon decided to pull out of the Gaza strip, the terrorist attacks on Gaza strip settlements has increased. I repeat - increased. The Palestinians are getting much of what they claim they want, for Israel to pull out of Gaza, so what do they do? "Hey, the Israelis aren't supposed to be capitulating to our demands! Attack them!" :rolleyes:
Why do you think this is? One of two things that I can see:
[list=1]
- Perhaps they want it to look like they are driving Israel out of Gaza. Dumb move. They know quite well that such attacks will only bring about Israeli retaliation and hurt the accomplishment of their claimed demands.
- Or, perhaps they don't want their excuse to commit acts of terrorism against Israel to be removed. Perhaps they attack Israel because they want to wipe us off the map, not because they want "land". Perhaps they hide their true intention amongst statements of "we demand our land back from the Zionist aggressors!" This would be in line with Arafat's refusal of Barak's offer of more than 90% of Judea and Samaria... "Don't give us what we demand! We'll have no excuse to continue trying to wipe you off the map!"
Take your pick. :rolleyes:
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Look, I have nothing against Israel. I understand
But this strategy has been proven, time and time again, to be completely useless.
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If terrorist attacks increase on the Gaza strip, isn't it a palestinian internal affair rather than an Israely one since they don't ask for help (that I know of)?
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
If terrorist attacks increase on the Gaza strip, isn't it a palestinian internal affair rather than an Israely one since they don't ask for help (that I know of)?
Well, the Israeli reason is that the Palestinian authority isn't doing enough to stop the attacks.
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If the attacks happen in Palestinian territory, how can they protest? :wtf:
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exactly, its sad and it seems it will never end.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Pardon me putting in my 2 pence, but things neeed to be said (once again).
Pence #1: The IDF acts very morally. How many soldiers - reservists, with wives and children back home - lost their lives in Jenin in 2002 because the IDF made a decision to go house-to-house in the search for terrorists and explosives labs, as opposed to just carpet bombing the sh*t out of the whole region, world opinion be damned? I was there, risking my life right alongside every one of my unitmates - all so we could prevent the needless loss of Palestinian life. FFS, sometimes I look at the latest suicide bomber/ess and think that the Israelis care more for the Palestinians than they care for themselves! DAMN them for the hatred they pour into their own children!
Pence #2: Listen, and listen good. Ever since Sharon decided to pull out of the Gaza strip, the terrorist attacks on Gaza strip settlements has increased. I repeat - increased. The Palestinians are getting much of what they claim they want, for Israel to pull out of Gaza, so what do they do? "Hey, the Israelis aren't supposed to be capitulating to our demands! Attack them!" :rolleyes:
Why do you think this is? One of two things that I can see:
[list=1]
- Perhaps they want it to look like they are driving Israel out of Gaza. Dumb move. They know quite well that such attacks will only bring about Israeli retaliation and hurt the accomplishment of their claimed demands.
- Or, perhaps they don't want their excuse to commit acts of terrorism against Israel to be removed. Perhaps they attack Israel because they want to wipe us off the map, not because they want "land". Perhaps they hide their true intention amongst statements of "we demand our land back from the Zionist aggressors!" This would be in line with Arafat's refusal of Barak's offer of more than 90% of Judea and Samaria... "Don't give us what we demand! We'll have no excuse to continue trying to wipe you off the map!"
Take your pick. :rolleyes:
Alright, I understand that, but tell me one reason in the world why Israel should not withdraw outright from the West Bank and Gaza, to the Green Line? Anyone who crosses the border then can be shot on sight. Seems like a plan to me, better than holding on to the occupied terrortories at the cost of Israeli lives.
As I've said, Sharon's plan is *not* beneficial for the Palestinians. They get Gaza (maybe, if the settlers and religious authorities allow it), but they lose a big chunk of the West Bank. If you give me $10 and take $20, should I be thankful that you've been so generous and given me $10?
70 Palestinians dead in this new offensive, 40 of which are women and children. You call that humane? It doesn't make it right, but its pretty obvious that the attacks on Sderot came in response to Israel's assasination thing in Syria.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Alright, I understand that, but tell me one reason in the world why Israel should not withdraw outright from the West Bank and Gaza, to the Green Line? Anyone who crosses the border then can be shot on sight. Seems like a plan to me, better than ho
Possibly because that, given the past & recent history, they would view that as being tantamount to surrender to surrender. I don't think this conflict can be solved by the actions of one side alone. I think the Israelis, being the dominant power, are best equipped to make the first step. But I also think the Palestinians have to make their own efforts, too.
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It is documented fact that Arab-Israeli peace treaties brokered by even Jews have been rejected on the notion that "by fighting we will gain more in the long term".
I wish I could remember the quote source, but I can't. The point is still valid though - this attitude is the problem.
I have no doubt you believe you're country is doing the right thing Sandwich but if you haven't already go check out 70's history and don't just accept the standard, omissive version.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Possibly because that, given the past & recent history, they would view that as being tantamount to surrender to surrender. I don't think this conflict can be solved by the actions of one side alone. I think the Israelis, being the dominant power, are best equipped to make the first step. But I also think the Palestinians have to make their own efforts, too.
Of course, I wasn't implying otherwise. The way I see it, it is Israel;s job to take away any legitimate reason for the Palestinians to fight them (this obviously does not include dismantling Israel or anything of the sort, and does include ending the occupation), and it the Palestinian's job to make sure than any such groups that are currently hostile do not remain so after this has happened.
If two sides are commiting equal crimes (in this case they're not, both in killings and in daily oppression Israel is far ahead, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt), I will side with the faction that has the better cause for commiting these crimes, wrong though they be. I dunno, maybe thats just me.
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I know, I just wanted to emphasise that I'm not for any side beyond that which wants peace. Which is neither at the moment, it would seem.
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People can never agree, god I hate this argument, and you know why? Because the only way it can end is when one side is dead. It took quite a few years for this to sink in but Palestine/Isreal is one of those "special" cases people like to call.
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thats bull**** and you know it. The conflict isn't even near the proportion of many historical conflicts, and they were all (fine, some) solved without one side annhiliating the other.
70% of Israelis favour a peaceful, just solution to the war, a two-state solution. And needless to say, probably the vast majority of Palestinians do as well, considering how they live now. The problem is that no one is listening to what the clear majority wants, only to arcane prophecy and selffish, mindless greed and nationalism.
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Israel - Palestine
Centauri - Narn
I'm sittin' this one out.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Points at Northern Ireland. No. We wouldn't. The Brits tried it in the past but finally figured out that it didn't work and did something else.
Yeah they did something else all right THEY BUILT A SEPARATION FENCE/WALL!!!! W007!!!!! It works doesn’t it? But n0000oooo0oo0o EVIL Zionist NAZIS BUILDING WALL SHAME, SHAME!!!! Good god the hypocrisy present in the European condemnation of the fence is stifling.
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We built a border fence on accepted territorial lines. It was manned by the republic's army on thier side.
If you're talking about actions pre-seperation of Eire then yes, we made a few mistakes - and what worked in the end? Negotiations.
I wasn't happy when we released prisoners under the good friday agreement, but if it brought peace then so be it.
Now, you are gonna have to grow up if you want your children to live in a free and safe country - otherwise 20 years from now Sandwich is gonna be watching his future nephews man guard towers and get blown up by bigger rockets from Palestinian trucks, while Palestinian children are shot in crossfire while Israeli force launch "defensive" raids against what's left of the Palestinian people.
Force is never the sole solution.
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yeah. Building a wall is one thing, building a wall in someone else's territory - annexing their lands, to fence them in, while keeping control of both sides of the wall, and while their livelyhood depends on the good will of the border guards, thats called a ghetto.
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Well that's the crux of the matter, ain't it? "Someone else's territory". We obviously disagree on whose territory it is, so the only response I'll give is the fact that if you repeat something enough times, it will be accepted as truth.
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Originally posted by Rictor
yeah. Building a wall is one thing, building a wall in someone else's territory - annexing their lands, to fence them in, while keeping control of both sides of the wall, and while their livelyhood depends on the good will of the border guards, thats called a ghetto.
The Facts Mac
This fence is for security so it must follow a route that ensures security. The green line is not a security line it’s a political line. The fence is not a border; final borders will be determined only through negotiations. Its a temporary step that Israel feels compelled to take until the Palestinian authority finally puts an end to the terror being carried out with its approval and financial and moral support and enters into a comprehensive peace agreement. In 40 months the Israeli population has suffered from 20,497 acts of terrorism including stabbings bombings axing shootings car ramming car bombs kidnapping etc... Had the Palestinian leadership abided by its pledge to act against terror there would have never been any need for the fence. Since the fence was completed around the Gaza strip not a single suicide bomber has gotten past. In the parts of the west bank where the fence has been completed terrorist activates have dropped by some 50%.
The "wall" is only 20km of the total 730 planned... that is less then 3% of the total "security FENCE" and that’s only where the danger of shooting attacks require a solid structure. There’s a delicate equation here that forces Israel to weigh the freedom of movement against the right to life. It is being built with the needs of the Palestinian people in mind as much as is possible while maintaining security. The fence will include 41 gates for farmers, 11 crossing points, and 5 terminals for the transfer of goods. The security fence is temporary meant to provide self defense it can be dismantled and moved within days its a phenomenon that can be reversed unlike the deaths that have resulted from the terrorists starting this "intefada” Israel has already moved fences as a result of political agreements. That’s what it did along its borders with Egypt Jordan and Lebanon. In fact Israel moved its Lebanese border security fence no less then 12 times! The anti-terror fence is a matter of self-defense. It’s a pragmatic effective, temporary measure necessitated by endless terror attacks. When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.
Israel has replanted more than 63,000 olive trees (the main crop of Palestinian farmers) to ensure the livelihood of the Palestinian farmers despite construction of the fence. The few and I quote "FEW" landowners affected by the construction of the fence have been offered compensations for their lands and for their harvests of the next five years. While they retain legal ownership of their property.
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To be honest, I don't give a flying squirrels nutsack who's land it is as long as both sides sodding well grow up stop killing each other over it :(
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[q]When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.
[/q]
You see, that's exactly what the Palestinians are saying to you... You may want to contemplate that.
[q]We obviously disagree on whose territory it is[/q]
Dude, if everyone in the world went around claiming land on the basis of events so far back in history (or biblical) as yours.... every bloody nation on earth would be in turmoil. If your God does exist, I seriously doubt He would approve of this behaviour - especially when it results in so much suffering for the Israeli people themselves.
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Originally posted by Flipside
To be honest, I don't give a flying squirrels nutsack who's land it is as long as both sides sodding well grow up stop killing each other over it :(
On that note I saw a red squirrel at university the other day. Little buggers move fast! :)
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Originally posted by vyper
[q]When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.
[/q]
You see, that's exactly what the Palestinians are saying to you... You may want to contemplate that.
:lol::yes:
You want to know what they are saying to us? Please pull up a chair.
Palestinians Civilians are saying nothing to us because they are the ones who want peace as we do and if they voice that they are willing to live alongside the Jews they will be called collaborators traitors and hanged in public. Its happened hundreds of times before and it can/will happen again.
Palestinian Terrorists couldn’t give a rats tiny ass about the land as long as it’s free of Jews they don’t care who lives there. And that’s their stated resolutions and constitutions. You can read them on their online sites if you like.
And the Palestinian Authority is one of two things. 1. They want peace as well but are afraid of what the terrorist organizations will do since they are the ones with the firepower. 2. Since they are supporting the terrorists anyway you would think its pretty clear their goals are the same?
If you see on the news there is never a march for peace in the Palestinian territories there are never big rallies like there are every year of hundreds of thousands in Tel-Aviv calling for peace. Oh no the Palestinians have bigger gatherings but ones that honor dead terrorists huge marches and rallies supporting that very force that is trying to wipe us out. Hmmm nice face they are putting on.
So what do we have? The real potential peacemakers under threat of death by their own people. Terrorists in charge of pretty much all the demands and agreements taking place weather directly or indirectly with their puppets in the PA... and the PA those useless wooden figures with strings dangling about. They have even stopped condemning suicide bombings. Anyone else notice this? They now say it’s sad but its Israel’s fault and they condemn the missile strikes on terrorist leaders... And don’t say they are condemning the civilian casualty... in all the latest air strikes not ONE civilian was hurt. And they still condemn it.
If they will not be responsible and take out their own trash we will do it for them because they are making us suffer for their deficiencies or unwillingness to deal with the terrorists.
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Two Words
Saudi Arabia.
The vector, the crux, the pivot ;)
Not all of the 'Thousand Princes of Arabia' are pro-American. It's also worth noting that we must try to divide 'Terrorists' from 'Militants' the two have blended too close to be distinguishable, which is worrying.
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You seem to be under the impression the entire world sees you as the bad guy and the Pal's as poor guys. You're seeing more in my words than I intend if that's the case.
The reason the Palestinians won't turn on thier leaders who advocate terrorism is because the alternative is demonstrated to them every time you bulldoze their homes, launch rockets down their streets and shoot their children in the middle of gun fights.
You want to disarm the militants? You can take away their biggest weapon by just restraining military action, and then put out VERY public peace feelers - then one of two things will happen:
Eventually the Palestinian people will turn against their militant leaders on the basis that there's no need for them
Or the Palestinians will throw it back in your face, and then you can call the United Nations in with peace keeping troops from the position of moral authority. The rest of the Arab world is still a bit miffed, but a lot less than if it's a purely Israeli campaign against the Palestinians.
Now, as for the issue of civilian casualties: If you're waging a war, that's conventional and follows the tactics of invading the enemy after they have attacked you - yes there will sometimes be casualties. However, you're trying to act like a police force in Gaza, and a police force can't have civilian causalites - it doesn't work that way.
[q]If they will not be responsible and take out their own trash we will do it for them because they are making us suffer for their deficiencies or unwillingness to deal with the terrorists.[/q]
How blase - not the best attitude for a man in the middle of a powder keg.
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Well, I'm not normally one for quoting M.Moore, since a lot of his work tends to serve it's own agenda, however, in Dude, wheres my Country he makes a very valid point....
America is capable of, at less cost than the current Iraq War projections, promising and deliverig the facilities to provide clean water to every living person on the planet. How many people, do you think, would want to fly planes into their buildings if they were known for doing that, rather than such things as Pol Pot etc?
Sometimes I wonder if it is worth the old practice of looking up the leaders of the warring factions in a room 'with neither food nor sleep' till a single decision is made, either because they agree, of the strongest willed person has out-surviveved all the others ;)
Seriously though, you must not forget part of the Isreali governments reaction to Sharon wanting to remove settlers. It was no worse, no less condemning of it's own people than Palestinian reactions to those they see as 'sympathisers'. Some even called upon Israeli troops to disobey direct orders from Sharon.
There are factions on both sides that want to hate the others, no one side is to blame, that is the utter tragedy of all this. While Israel thinks it is Palestine, and Palestine thinks it is Israel, and I fear that you are no less being manipulated by your governments as we are by ours.
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Sorry for a double post but, you see, this is the sort of thing that really gets my goat...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1514&e=13&u=/afp/20041004/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_italy_troops
If he had said 'Middle Eastern' forces, I'd have said 'Great, good idea, be thy neighbours helper'. However, he specifically states a religion. Follow this path and you end up with 'Christian Forces', 'Sikh Forces' etc etc, which is, quite frankly, a bloody scary thought.
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Originally posted by vyper
You seem to be under the impression the entire world sees you as the bad guy and the Pal's as poor guys. You're seeing more in my words than I intend if that's the case.
not the entire world... Just the people I debate with ;)
Originally posted by vyper
The reason the Palestinians won't turn on thier leaders who advocate terrorism is because the alternative is demonstrated to them every time you bulldoze their homes, launch rockets down their streets and shoot their children in the middle of gun fights.
That is not the alternative in reality or even percived. that is the consequence. The alternative is demonstrated by the people up north and in the town a block away from my house. The alternative is demonstrated by arabs who have proven themseves peace seekers who are living among us with not a road block policeman or soldier in sight. My friend up north is an arab man who is serving in the police force there. his father was a man who travled for his business around the wrold and his family hold poitions in the government and law offices and medical areas around Israel... this is how his family and thousands of families like him have been living for decades. And damn the Palestinians for sending thier children out deliberatly into the middle of gun fights. No you say, in reality the soldiers are firing across a street and a kid runs out and the one guy turns to the other and says "look a smaller target" $10 say I can hit him in 3 shots :rolleyes:
Originally posted by vyper
You want to disarm the militants? You can take away their biggest weapon by just restraining military action, and then put out VERY public peace feelers - then one of two things will happen:
Eventually the Palestinian people will turn against their militant leaders on the basis that there's no need for them
Or the Palestinians will throw it back in your face, and then you can call the United Nations in with peace keeping troops from the position of moral authority. The rest of the Arab world is still a bit miffed, but a lot less than if it's a purely Israeli campaign against the Palestinians.
1. yes because any country would be willing to stand by and let thier civilians be murdered so that the people attacking can get a clue and maybe grow a consience. suuuure. thats not unreasonable. hey USA you were attacked on 911 but hey listen dont retaliate then the taliban would have stoped and said. "hey they didnt fight back oh man we are so sorry. we were only doing it to make trouble not because we wanted to kill the infadels!" Maybe they would have, but after how many more attacks costing how many more lives? :doubt:
Originally posted by vyper
Now, as for the issue of civilian casualties: If you're waging a war, that's conventional and follows the tactics of invading the enemy after they have attacked you - yes there will sometimes be casualties. However, you're trying to act like a police force in Gaza, and a police force can't have civilian causalites - it doesn't work that way.
how can you wage a conventional war against a terrorist orginazation that resides at home with thier families?!!?!?1 seriously?! they dont have an army so who will we fight? they dont have bases outside public areas so what will we bomb? they dont want a conventional war they target civilians. but what the hell. since we cant wage conventional war well just let them on thier way.
Originally posted by vyper
[q]If they will not be responsible and take out their own trash we will do it for them because they are making us suffer for their deficiencies or unwillingness to deal with the terrorists.[/q]
How blase - not the best attitude for a man in the middle of a powder keg.
Somtimes the simplest explanation is the hardest to swollow.
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Originally posted by Flipside
Seriously though, you must not forget part of the Isreali governments reaction to Sharon wanting to remove settlers. It was no worse, no less condemning of it's own people than Palestinian reactions to those they see as 'sympathisers'. Some even called upon Israeli troops to disobey direct orders from Sharon.
There are factions on both sides that want to hate the others, no one side is to blame, that is the utter tragedy of all this. While Israel thinks it is Palestine, and Palestine thinks it is Israel, and I fear that you are no less being manipulated by your governments as we are by ours.
lol they arnt protesting the pullout because its a pain to palestinians to ahve them their. They are protesting the pullout because they have been there farming that land for longer then the states of Israel has existed. they bought the land 7 decades ago and worked it. the arabs called them crazy and called the land "cursed" now its a leading producer in agricultural technologies. when the arabs saw the fruit of the settlers labour so many years ago they blessed them and praised them for reviving a dead land they swarmed in by the hundreds of thousands seeking the jobs that were suddenly created. most of the settlers families have been in the gazaa strip area for longer then the palestinians that are now there. THAT is why they feel betrayed by this disengagment plan.
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well you'r going to have to make a few sacrifices on your own side, a hundred or so pissed farmers seems like a small price to pay. you think that's not fair, well, there's lots of stuff that isn't fair in this conflict, I have hopes for this, they put up a fence/wall/baracade of unholy doom/whateveryouwanttocallit, say screw you guys, were drawing the line, the palistinians have had plenty of time to sweet talk were they want the line draw, from what I've seen that line isn't too far off the old one, Israel gets a mile or so so they can say "we won", and the palastinians can stew in there new nation untill getting mowed down at the wall loses it's luster.
does anyone have an up to date map o ware the wall is, I remember a few months ago a map were it showed were it was (and showed a 'totaly unbiased I'm sure' projection that had it jet out into the west bank at a 90 degree angle, lets see how acurate that was)
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[q]hey USA you were attacked on 911[/q]
DEAR GOD MAN! Have you not realized WHY the damned yanks were attacked that day? THEY ****ED OVER HALF THE MIDDLE EAST AND 2ND/3RD WORLD FOR YEARS - even a worm will turn on an agressor no matter the consequences - you can't just blast the palestinians out of the way YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY THINK.
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yeah, it was our fault, we brought it on our selves
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Originally posted by Bobboau
yeah, it was our fault, we brought it on our selves
That had seriously better be sarcasm...
Sandwich/Splinter, I hope your government keeps doing whatever it has to until those bastards wake up and figure out that blowing themselves up in shopping malls is not too smart. Until then, I'm very glad that my country, at least, supports what you're doing :).
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People always miss the simple point; violence begets violence.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
People always miss the simple point; violence begets violence.
I aint arguing however in this case with this types of people peace begets weakness and they attack even more. look at the history here its happened time and time again we are going to be attacked weather we retaliate or not.. might as well get rid of a few of the terrorists as long as they are giving us the excusse eh? at this rate the will be gone long before we are now we just have to wait for them to realise it... oh wait. they do! they just dont care. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by vyper
[q]hey USA you were attacked on 911[/q]
DEAR GOD MAN! Have you not realized WHY the damned yanks were attacked that day? THEY ****ED OVER HALF THE MIDDLE EAST AND 2ND/3RD WORLD FOR YEARS - even a worm will turn on an agressor no matter the consequences - you can't just blast the palestinians out of the way YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY THINK.
ok lets just say you are right. which i dont actually agree with.
so the us deserved that atack? so in reality the people in those countries that were wrongedc shouldnt have said USA we want peace treties we want talks. they were right to bomb the crap out of people who had nothing to do with thier overseas problem. yes I see your logic....:wtf: :nervous:
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I blame the following:
The UN
The USA
Russia
The UK
The simple fact is that in 1947/48 when this started to kick off, so many people could have intervened and did not. The UN created Israel, not God. And pretty much every day and every year since that decision was taken, there has been violence and mayhem.
Israel was created as a religious state, which means that it could have been created somewhere else, not right in the centre of a group of hostile Arab nations....
But what's done is done. The only way forward is negotiation.....
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Originally posted by Splinter
I aint arguing however in this case with this types of people peace begets weakness and they attack even more. look at the history here its happened time and time again we are going to be attacked weather we retaliate or not.. might as well get rid of a few of the terrorists as long as they are giving us the excusse eh? at this rate the will be gone long before we are now we just have to wait for them to realise it... oh wait. they do! they just dont care. :rolleyes:
Peace is peace, not weakness. The only people that view peace as weakness are those that do not know it.
Of course, if military action is so effective at getting rid of terrorists, why hasn't it worked yet, eh? Maybe because you're creating martyrs to their cause?
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@Splinter
If someone decides to mess with a foreign power, they are bound to get hammered (lightly or heavily) some times... mess with half of the world's foreign powers and... well... about every country in the world has learnt this except a very few... I can only think of one country in the world that hasn't learnt the last part of that statement and I don't think I need to say which.
When speaking of the USA, one wants to say the USA Government. So IMHO the USA (government) deserved to be attacked... the USA's people... that's a completly diferent story.
Other countries governments have as much right to "bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their overseas problems" just as much as the USA has the right to bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their problems... see a similarity?
To get back on topic, I think the UN should muster what is left of their balls and simply grab Palestine and Israel's territory and declare both countries to be "UN's property" and then form some little protectorades for both sides.
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Originally posted by Clave
I blame the following:
The UN
The USA
Russia
The UK
The simple fact is that in 1947/48 when this started to kick off, so many people could have intervened and did not. The UN created Israel, not God. And pretty much every day and every year since that decision was taken, there has been violence and mayhem.
Israel was created as a religious state, which means that it could have been created somewhere else, not right in the centre of a group of hostile Arab nations....
But what's done is done. The only way forward is negotiation.....
umm nooo if Israel was a religious state wholey then it deffinetly coudlnt have been put anywhere eslse because Israel is the only holy place for jews. :wtf:
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Peace is peace, not weakness. The only people that view peace as weakness are those that do not know it.
Of course, if military action is so effective at getting rid of terrorists, why hasn't it worked yet, eh? Maybe because you're creating martyrs to their cause?
maybe we are talking out of experience. maybe we know that every time peace is brokered there is a brief stop in the violence while they gather forces and then when they are strong enough or think they are they attack again. sorry dude but im right. im not saying that peace in our eyes is weakness dont misunderstand that is in fact our highest goal... but in the eyes of the terrorists us declaring a peace and havign peace is a sign that we are giving up that we are defeated... I suggest you study thier mentality on the issue its quite fascinating.
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
@Splinter
If someone decides to mess with a foreign power, they are bound to get hammered (lightly or heavily) some times... mess with half of the world's foreign powers and... well... about every country in the world has learnt this except a very few... I can only think of one country in the world that hasn't learnt the last part of that statement and I don't think I need to say which.
When speaking of the USA, one wants to say the USA Government. So IMHO the USA (government) deserved to be attacked... the USA's people... that's a completly diferent story.
Other countries governments have as much right to "bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their overseas problems" just as much as the USA has the right to bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their problems... see a similarity?
To get back on topic, I think the UN should muster what is left of their balls and simply grab Palestine and Israel's territory and declare both countries to be "UN's property" and then form some little protectorades for both sides.
roight well maybe ill let somone from the US argue with you about what the US governemtn deserves etc etc...
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Originally posted by Splinter
maybe we are talking out of experience. maybe we know that every time peace is brokered there is a brief stop in the violence while they gather forces and then when they are strong enough or think they are they attack again. sorry dude but im right. im not saying that peace in our eyes is weakness dont misunderstand that is in fact our highest goal... but in the eyes of the terrorists us declaring a peace and havign peace is a sign that we are giving up that we are defeated... I suggest you study thier mentality on the issue its quite fascinating.
You're not going for peace with terrorists, you're going for peace with Palestinians in general. Ceasefires are not peace* - peace is an equitable solution that removes the cause of the terrorists and the public support that keeps them in business.
*they're a delay, a lull, temporary by nature.
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yeah peace with the palestinian people that fine and dandy so we get peace with them and open up the borders and what changes? now they have a state that is letting terrorists throught our borders they still do nothing about it and the terrorists are still trying to whipe us out. and NOW they are a state so we declare war and boom a whole new war era starts... blah blah. dude first the terrorists go then theres peace. they need to show they will take care of the terrorists otherwise what asurances do we have that we can let them have a state and they will be responsible enough to take care of the terrorists? besides that emans civil war arab vs arab like in jordan or somthing.
They need to show us they will take care of the terrorists by starting now. theres not much besides that to be done
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By that statement I assume you would have encouraged Spain invading France just because the ETA was based in France...
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Originally posted by Splinter
yeah peace with the palestinian people that fine and dandy so we get peace with them and open up the borders and what changes? now they have a state that is letting terrorists throught our borders they still do nothing about it and the terrorists are still trying to whipe us out. and NOW they are a state so we declare war and boom a whole new war era starts... blah blah. dude first the terrorists go then theres peace. they need to show they will take care of the terrorists otherwise what asurances do we have that we can let them have a state and they will be responsible enough to take care of the terrorists? besides that emans civil war arab vs arab like in jordan or somthing.
They need to show us they will take care of the terrorists by starting now. theres not much besides that to be done
They can't go after the terrorists because the Palestinian people support the terrorists, because Israel marches in with tanks going against the terrorists.
(and, of course, the likes of Hamas also play a political / charitable role within Palestine, which makes Israel look even more the enemy when they do attack Hamas, and this thus boosts Hamas by strengthening resentment towards Israel)
you're making a remarkable number of unfounded statements there, anyways. How do you know that a) they can currently go after the terrorists (with the current poverty and poor infrastructure in the Palestinian territories)? b) the terrorists would continue to attack after an equitable peace was established? c) there would be some form of civil war in Palestine?
What you've done, is made the worst possible assumptions about the Palestinians and treated them as such. Which, when in turn replicated by government, has removed any moral superiority Israel did have, and turned many moderate nations against them.
It's blatantly obvious the military 'solution' isn't one.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
They can't go after the terrorists because the Palestinian people support the terrorists, because Israel marches in with tanks going against the terrorists.
(and, of course, the likes of Hamas also play a political / charitable role within Palestine, which makes Israel look even more the enemy when they do attack Hamas, and this thus boosts Hamas by strengthening resentment towards Israel)
well now its back to who started what first? did the terrorist attack Israel first? or did Israel march in and kill terrorists first?
Originally posted by aldo_14
you're making a remarkable number of unfounded statements there, anyways. How do you know that a) they can currently go after the terrorists (with the current poverty and poor infrastructure in the Palestinian territories)? b) the terrorists would continue to attack after an equitable peace was established? c) there would be some form of civil war in Palestine?
were talking past example here we funded and provided training and weapons for the PAs police force what did they do 1. some did nothing. 2. some gave the wepaons and helped trian the terrorists. so yes they have had the chance to deal with the terrorirsts when they were full able and equipped and they chose to support them instead.
Yes the terrorists would continue to attack I suggest before coming into an argument you try to study the credo of each opposing side and listen to what they want... the palestinian people want a state. the Palestinian terrorists want dead jews. I suggest visitng hezbola hamas islamic jihad fatah and all thems online websites they have it right there in thier "purpose" area of thier pages.
yeah civil war... if the PA now try and take care of the terrorists it would be civil war... whats so hard about that? you think the terrorists would just give in?! :wtf:
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Originally posted by Splinter
well now its back to who started what first? did the terrorist attack Israel first? or did Israel march in and kill terrorists first?
The first step to peace is forgetting the past. both sides can doubtless claim a long history where the other side is responsible for starting it.
Originally posted by Splinter
were talking past example here we funded and provided training and weapons for the PAs police force what did they do 1. some did nothing. 2. some gave the wepaons and helped trian the terrorists. so yes they have had the chance to deal with the terrorirsts when they were full able and equipped and they chose to support them instead.
Yes the terrorists would continue to attack I suggest before coming into an argument you try to study the credo of each opposing side and listen to what they want... the palestinian people want a state. the Palestinian terrorists want dead jews. I suggest visitng hezbola hamas islamic jihad fatah and all thems online websites they have it right there in thier "purpose" area of thier pages.
yeah civil war... if the PA now try and take care of the terrorists it would be civil war... whats so hard about that? you think the terrorists would just give in?! :wtf:
The terrorists wouldn't have a cause or, crucially, public support any more. You said so yourself - the palestinian people want a state, not terrorists. Remove the cause, you remove the recruits and the support.
And if it emerges that the terrorists are attacking just to kill Jews, then Israel will be able to justifiably claim the moral high ground from them - and with that comes international support and aid.
If the current Israeli strategy was working, then you could claim justification. But it doesn't work, and has only exacerbated the situation.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The terrorists wouldn't have a cause or, crucially, public support any more. You said so yourself - the palestinian people want a state, not terrorists. Remove the cause, you remove the recruits and the support.
yes... and? if the terrorists realise we arnt retaliating they dont need to kill themselves in the process anymore they will simply plant bombs forget about blowing themseves up! beside I said the Palestinian people I didnt say how many... atm in poll 80% support the terrorists and their methods... that dosnt leave me to confidant
Originally posted by aldo_14
And if it emerges that the terrorists are attacking just to kill Jews, then Israel will be able to justifiably claim the moral high ground from them - and with that comes international support and aid.
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights. "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
Today, Palestinian Islamic Jihad is committed to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel through a jihad (holy war).
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/PIJ.html
Fatah online constitution: Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.
Article (22) Opposing any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation in Palestine, as well as any project intended to liquidate the Palestinian case or impose any international mandate on its people.
http://www.fateh.net/e_public/constitution.htm#The%20Essential%20Principles%20of%20the
wow dude. you are as blind as the rest of the world and thier governments. they have never hidden this fact you just have to pay attention. welcome to the real war, the war of our survival have a nice day. :yes:
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Wow! only 2 pages and people have already turned on the US.
Does it matter who attacked who first? Does it matter whos land it is? Does it matter whos fault it is? Does it matter how much oil is around there? Does it matter if they have sizeable support elsewhere?
Mostly Yes: Welome to the land of the Free and the home of the Brave
Mostly No: We're yes' target
Oh looks like Isreal wants to prosecute several UN workers, damn those sneeky terorist bastards and thier cunning disguises
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Originally posted by Splinter
yes... and? if the terrorists realise we arnt retaliating they dont need to kill themselves in the process anymore they will simply plant bombs forget about blowing themseves up! beside I said the Palestinian people I didnt say how many... atm in poll 80% support the terrorists and their methods... that dosnt leave me to confidant
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/PIJ.html
http://www.fateh.net/e_public/constitution.htm#The%20Essential%20Principles%20of%20the
wow dude. you are as blind as the rest of the world and thier governments. they have never hidden this fact you just have to pay attention. welcome to the real war, the war of our survival have a nice day. :yes:
As long as there is no Palestinian state, then Hamas and the rest can claim a justified cause, and thus recruit 'ordinary' Palestinians to it.
I appreciate your situation, and that you have a justified reason for hating these people. But this hatred is the same reason they use, the same excuse they give, and is why there is no hope for peace for either side whilst this situation continues.
Maybe if you read what I'm saying, what you will understand is that am suggesting a peaceful solution that will remove the popular support and perceived legitimacy of these terrorists.
NB: Maybe if Israel wasn't retaliating, there'd be less people angry enough to be come terrorists - think of that?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
As long as there is no Palestinian state, then Hamas and the rest can claim a justified cause, and thus recruit 'ordinary' Palestinians to it.
look im no expert on the psychi of a terrorist all I know it what they tell me and that is you are a dead man because you are a jew and in what used to be our land. plain and simple. maybe your right maybe if there is a paletnian state they would stop attacking... but then why are they still attacking they know that the world already want us to give them a state if they stop attacking we will HAVE to... if they stopped attacking we couldnt say well the terrorists dont deserve a state well the keep attacking they dont deserve a state... yeah sorry but I dont belive the terrorists will stop at a state and by what I quoted niether do they.
Originally posted by aldo_14
I appreciate your situation, and that you have a justified reason for hating these people. But this hatred is the same reason they use, the same excuse they give, and is why there is no hope for peace for either side whilst this situation continues.
hate these people? the only people I hate have ceased to be human in my eyes they dont deserve to hold the title and they deserved to be treated as such unhuman animals. Sorry but thats my view of terrorists. those who arnt terrorists belive me I could care less where they live they can live in the aprtment next to me or they can live on the other side of the world who cares?! they arnt trying to kill me because of my ethnicity and or location!
so yes I hate the terrorists but not the people in the territories.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Maybe if you read what I'm saying, what you will understand is that am suggesting a peaceful solution that will remove the popular support and perceived legitimacy of these terrorists.
NB: Maybe if Israel wasn't retaliating, there'd be less people angry enough to be come terrorists - think of that?
look I can appreciate your trying to think up solutions and they may seem good, yeah in the world itll remove thier support... but you think that will make a diffrence to them? all they have seen is that since they started killing civilians the world has pressured Israel to meet thier demands. and I highly doubt it will work.
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Originally posted by Splinter
look im no expert on the psychi of a terrorist all I know it what they tell me and that is you are a dead man because you are a jew and in what used to be our land. plain and simple. maybe your right maybe if there is a paletnian state they would stop attacking... but then why are they still attacking they know that the world already want us to give them a state if they stop attacking we will HAVE to... if they stopped attacking we couldnt say well the terrorists dont deserve a state well the keep attacking they dont deserve a state... yeah sorry but I dont belive the terrorists will stop at a state and by what I quoted niether do they.
See all previous comments RE: removing support & cause. I'm not rewriting that stuff for the 5th or 6th time.
Also, if they stop attacking, then they Israel will have no more of a reason to back out of Palestine.
Terrorism is - as they see it - their only real leverage against Israel (as Israel has repeatedly ignored the UN resoltions against it, and is being covered by the US veto as well). They feel abandoned by the world, so all they think they can do is fight. For some it is suicide bombs, for others it is passive support, and for others its picking up rocks and ak-47s when Israel troops march in.
In short, for them it's better than doing nothing and standly idly by while they suffer.
Originally posted by Splinter
hate these people? the only people I hate have ceased to be human in my eyes they dont deserve to hold the title and they deserved to be treated as such unhuman animals. Sorry but thats my view of terrorists. those who arnt terrorists belive me I could care less where they live they can live in the aprtment next to me or they can live on the other side of the world who cares?! they arnt trying to kill me because of my ethnicity and or location!
so yes I hate the terrorists but not the people in the territories.
Yet you seem to be so unable to distinguish between them.
lOriginally posted by Splinter
ook I can appreciate your trying to think up solutions and they may seem good, yeah in the world itll remove thier support... but you think that will make a diffrence to them? all they have seen is that since they started killing civilians the world has pressured Israel to meet thier demands. and I highly doubt it will work.
The worlds has pressured Israel because Israel has been killing civillians as well, and Israel has the power to stop. And because Israel is a powerful, democratic, civillised state, people expect it to be able to make the first move. Whether the terrorists do or do not attack will make no difference to what Israel does in Palestine - if there are no more attacks then there is no impetus for Israel leave.
It's simple, really. Terrorists can't operate without support, the same as political parties, armies, etc, can't. Moreso, if they operate against that support, i.e. in ways that hurt the interests of said support, then people turn on them.
Terrorism exists as an extreme expression of social issues. remove the issue, and you will remove the terrorism.
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hey does anyone have a map of the current wall, and an acompanying craph/chart of suicide bombings over the last two or three years
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Originally posted by aldo_14
See all previous comments RE: removing support & cause. I'm not rewriting that stuff for the 5th or 6th time.
and I keep telling you fro a 5th and 6th time history and thier current swearing lead anyone actually taking the intrest to look into it to the conclusion that it will not work. Your is a theory that it will work mine is a theory based on historical situstions and what they now say but a THEROY none the less that it will not work... cant you accept that?
Originally posted by aldo_14
Also, if they stop attacking, then they Israel will have no more of a reason to back out of Palestine.
what is this Palestine you speak of?
Originally posted by aldo_14
Terrorism is - as they see it - their only real leverage against Israel (as Israel has repeatedly ignored the UN resoltions against it, and is being covered by the US veto as well). They feel abandoned by the world, so all they think they can do is fight. For some it is suicide bombs, for others it is passive support, and for others its picking up rocks and ak-47s when Israel troops march in.
ignored UN resolutions taht were passed against it when it went into the territories because of an attack on its civilians so it could hunt down terrorists thank GOD Israel ignores that usless body of wind bags the UN who have been helping terrorists in fact. that latest article about athe quassam rocket being tranported in the UN vehicle and this video: http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=gunslinger5&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en/
Originally posted by aldo_14
In short, for them it's better than doing nothing and standly idly by while they suffer.
They are suffering because they started it! they started bombing we started going in. they stop bombing we stop going in. they are suffering cause they choose to fight and kill and murder. like I have said before jsut look at all the arabs living in Israel who have great homes lives families jobs with no crap going on they ahve no raids in their villages they have no checkpoints or army people.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Yet you seem to be so unable to distinguish between them.
I do? lets see somone who marches in hamas rally goes and blows himself up shoots at settlers stuff like that = terrorist
somone who wants peace stays out of the conflict dosnt help terrorists in any way and just want to live thier lives and support thier families = not terrorists... I dont think its very complicated. I can see a big diffrence between the 2 I hope you can to.
Originally posted by aldo_14
The worlds has pressured Israel because Israel has been killing civillians as well, and Israel has the power to stop. And because Israel is a powerful, democratic, civillised state, people expect it to be able to make the first move. Whether the terrorists do or do not attack will make no difference to what Israel does in Palestine - if there are no more attacks then there is no impetus for Israel leave.
the point is Israel kills civilians? yes. intentionally? no. are the soldiers who do punished? yes. are there casualties of civilians in wars? yes. Like Sandy said we could jsut bomb the hwole place get it over with... you think these people liek going house to house so that needless lives are not wasted at the expensse of thier own?!
Originally posted by aldo_14
It's simple, really. Terrorists can't operate without support, the same as political parties, armies, etc, can't. Moreso, if they operate against that support, i.e. in ways that hurt the interests of said support, then people turn on them.
Terrorism exists as an extreme expression of social issues. remove the issue, and you will remove the terrorism.
so we are going to ahve to sit and wait for the US to attack Iran Syria and Saudi Arabia before the terrorists quite getting support ?! how many years will that be? you can come here and sit it out that long if you wish but we happen to value life slighty more then you apperantly
the palestinian terrorists get support from their onw people yes. but do they get the support they need to operate from them? no they are to poor they have squandered any money they did have on trying to blow israel up in the first year. the support these terrorists get is from outside Israel.
ISRAEL IS THE SOCIAL ISSUE!!!!!!!!! READ WHAT IS BEING W-R-I-T-T-E-N FOR ONCE!!!!! I will repeat this once more and hope you can comprehend simple english. the terrorists want Israel gone nothing more nothing less. that is the issue removing the issue is removing Israel from existance. So now maybe do you understand this is like nothigna nyone has faced before. these people will not stop attacking till we are gone for good that is the issue... how do you remove that issue without resorting to thier methods?
I hope this time you absorb this information review the links i posted our existance is their issue. if you still think that removing the issue is the only solution then you agree to the destruction of Israel... its quite simple ina very tragic way. :doubt:
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Okay, you're young even compared to me and aldo, I get that- you see things very black and white. That's allowed.
But... just... argh. You really are so arrogant about this whole thing e.g. what is this Palestine you speak of? "usless body of wind bags the UN who have been helping terrorists in fact. that latest article about athe quassam rocket being tranported in the UN vehicle and this video:" etc.
In fact most experts on british media said most rockets/launchers would be too heavy to be carried the way that guy carried the object he had.
The UN was created to stop power-hungry men and silly little boys playing war whenever they think they have divine right to something. Unforutnately we've never backed it up with any real weight.
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Originally posted by vyper
Okay, you're young even compared to me and aldo, I get that- you see things very black and white. That's allowed.
But... just... argh. You really are so arrogant about this whole thing e.g. what is this Palestine you speak of? "usless body of wind bags the UN who have been helping terrorists in fact. that latest article about athe quassam rocket being tranported in the UN vehicle and this video:" etc.
did you watch the video? im sorry I dont care if I do come across black and white the UN isnt helping here.
My age has nothing to do with my arguments... my experiences would. and so you want age? would any of the things I posted make any more or less sense if you knew I was 30? 40? 70? 25?
Originally posted by vyper
In fact most experts on british media said most rockets/launchers would be too heavy to be carried the way that guy carried the object he had.
The UN was created to stop power-hungry men and silly little boys playing war whenever they think they have divine right to something. Unforutnately we've never backed it up with any real weight.
hey the UN is at fualt directly or inderectly for not doing F*** all. If they havnt been backed up... well by whome? who was supposed to be backing them up... and with what? :doubt:
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The US, the world's biggest military power, fails to support the UN when it sanctions against Israel, or any other satellite state for that matter.
Britain hasn't helped either - we've cowtowed to US demands on the security council for far too long and the major European powers are afraid of getting their hands dirty due to the unpopularity it causes at home.
[q]less sense if you knew I was 30? 40? 70? 25? [/q]
Mate, if you posted these things at 30 years of age I'd think you were damned arrogant, if you posted them at 40 I'd think you were lacking intelligence, if you posted them at 70 I'd call you senile and if you posted them at 25 I'd call you a retard.
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Originally posted by vyper
The US, the world's biggest military power, fails to support the UN when it sanctions against Israel, or any other satellite state for that matter.
Britain hasn't helped either - we've cowtowed to US demands on the security council for far too long and the major European powers are afraid of getting their hands dirty due to the unpopularity it causes at home.
well then thats not our fault... and maybe the US has good reason... maybe they agree with me about how usefull the UN is in some issues. :yes:
Originally posted by vyper
[q]less sense if you knew I was 30? 40? 70? 25? [/q]
Mate, if you posted these things at 30 years of age I'd think you were damned arrogant, if you posted them at 40 I'd think you were lacking intelligence, if you posted them at 70 I'd call you senile and if you posted them at 25 I'd call you a retard.
lol dont you know. people around the world are diffrent at diffrent ages. unless you live among clones I would expect you to know that. I could be 14 and posting like I was 30 who cares? if the argument is valid you adress it plain and simple.
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i think the whole situation is rather funny, allot of people dont share my opinions, altho they never could really explain to me:
1) why Palestinians even have any right to claim that territory theirs ?
2) why Palestinians attack civilians, use funds that are supposed to be for feeding their people and buying medication, to buy weapons and ammunition ?
3) why a blantant terrorist group (Hamas) can be sponserd by the UN and no one gives a **** about it ?, could i fund AL-Quaida if it had a "political front" and not just a militery one?.
4) why every time israel decides to take a step towards peace ( leaving gaza, altho i have no idea how that will give peace ), palestinians decide they are all-mighty and attack civilians, only to see the troops coming back and whiping them out.
i dont know why, but i just see things this way.. i cant see where palestinians have ever given a hand for peace, i cant find one incident where israel was the "fire-starter" in this whole terror war and its battle's..
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Originally posted by Splinter
and I keep telling you fro a 5th and 6th time history and thier current swearing lead anyone actually taking the intrest to look into it to the conclusion that it will not work. Your is a theory that it will work mine is a theory based on historical situstions and what they now say but a THEROY none the less that it will not work... cant you accept that?
Who's this 'Roy' you talk of?
Your theory, as far as I can tell, is preserving the status quo that has cause over half a century of mutual violence, hatred and bloodshed. History has proved you cannot use tanks to stop terrorists.
Mine, at least, involves trying to stop that.
Originally posted by Splinter
what is this Palestine you speak of?
The squalid overcrowded territory which will have to become an independent nation of some sort in order to facilitate lasting peace.
Originally posted by Splinter
ignored UN resolutions taht were passed against it when it went into the territories because of an attack on its civilians so it could hunt down terrorists thank GOD Israel ignores that usless body of wind bags the UN who have been helping terrorists in fact. that latest article about athe quassam rocket being tranported in the UN vehicle and this video: http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=gunslinger5&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en/
Even the IDF admits that's not conclusive evidence. I would hardly call a bunch of local support staff indicative of the rest of the world - which the UN represents - regardless.
The UNs charter was founded to protect the basic rights of man and to seek peaceful solutions instead of armed conflict. Frankly. I can;t think of any more appropriate area for it to pass resolutions on.
Originally posted by Splinter
They are suffering because they started it! they started bombing we started going in. they stop bombing we stop going in. they are suffering cause they choose to fight and kill and murder. like I have said before jsut look at all the arabs living in Israel who have great homes lives families jobs with no crap going on they ahve no raids in their villages they have no checkpoints or army people.
They don't choose to live in Palestine, or in refugee camps in other countries like Syria, Jordan, etc. They don't choose to be stopped from working in Israel because of IDF roadblock. they don't choose to have their homes bulldozed, or their towns cut in half by giant concrete blocks.
And they started it? If you really want to go all the way back to the beginning, then it's down to the conflict between Arabs & Israelis in 1947, when thousands of Arabs were driven out of what became Israel, at the same time as Jewish refugees came from Arab countries into Israel itself. If you look at history, both started it.
Originally posted by Splinter
I do? lets see somone who marches in hamas rally goes and blows himself up shoots at settlers stuff like that = terrorist
somone who wants peace stays out of the conflict dosnt help terrorists in any way and just want to live thier lives and support thier families = not terrorists... I dont think its very complicated. I can see a big diffrence between the 2 I hope you can to.
And someone who is unfortunate enough to get in the way of a bullet? Someone who lives (or tries to) in the refugee camps and sees their house destroyed, or their family caught in crossfire?
Do they deserve it? If not, do they have a right to seek revenge as Israel would for attacks upon it?
Originally posted by Splinter
the point is Israel kills civilians? yes. intentionally? no. are the soldiers who do punished? yes. are there casualties of civilians in wars? yes. Like Sandy said we could jsut bomb the hwole place get it over with... you think these people liek going house to house so that needless lives are not wasted at the expensse of thier own?!
To the Palestinian who sees his son/dauighter/wife/etc caught in the crossfire, intention doesn't matter. What matters, is that Israeli troops did it.
Originally posted by Splinter
so we are going to ahve to sit and wait for the US to attack Iran Syria and Saudi Arabia before the terrorists quite getting support ?! how many years will that be? you can come here and sit it out that long if you wish but we happen to value life slighty more then you apperantly
So it's blame the big bad arabs overseas, now? So...it's not about Palestinians, but about Arab countries? So why even bother going into Palestine and not attacking them?
Originally posted by Splinter
the palestinian terrorists get support from their onw people yes. but do they get the support they need to operate from them? no they are to poor they have squandered any money they did have on trying to blow israel up in the first year. the support these terrorists get is from outside Israel.
So....all Palestinians are idiots who've went bankrupt trying to blow up Israel?
Originally posted by Splinter
ISRAEL IS THE SOCIAL ISSUE!!!!!!!!! READ WHAT IS BEING W-R-I-T-T-E-N FOR ONCE!!!!! I will repeat this once more and hope you can comprehend simple english. the terrorists want Israel gone nothing more nothing less. that is the issue removing the issue is removing Israel from existance. So now maybe do you understand this is like nothigna nyone has faced before. these people will not stop attacking till we are gone for good that is the issue... how do you remove that issue without resorting to thier methods?
I hope this time you absorb this information review the links i posted our existance is their issue. if you still think that removing the issue is the only solution then you agree to the destruction of Israel... its quite simple ina very tragic way. :doubt:
Look, if you're not going to pay attention to what I'm saying, then there's no point in this. Popular support, that which is accepted by the international community and an accepted necessity for lasting peace, is to have an independent Palestinian state.
Do this, and you remove the legitamacy and defensibility of terrorism. And you also remove the vast majority of popular support. By doing that, you weaken if not destroy the terrorists ability to maintain an infrastructure. You also ensure that any assistance to these terrorists is no longer seen as assisting freedom fighters, but as helping murderous terrorists.
If you are too blinkered to understand what I'm saying, then it's not my fault. I will spell it out one more time; terrorism exists because of social conditions. The social conditions are the poverty, deprivation, and fear of Palestinians living in the settlements, who have grown to hate Israel as a result of their role in this sorry affair.
If you remove the root of that hate, you remove the root of that problem. This hate of Zionism that you are so keen to allude to, is an extension of that hatred - it's justification is rooted as much in the Palestinian situation as it is in religion. Palestine is the key to the solution. solve that, and the rest will follow.
Send in more tanks, and all that will follow is more suicide bombers and civillian casualties on both sides.
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Originally posted by ffRule
i think the whole situation is rather funny, allot of people dont share my opinions, altho they never could really explain to me:
1) why Palestinians even have any right to claim that territory theirs ?
2) why Palestinians attack civilians, use funds that are supposed to be for feeding their people and buying medication, to buy weapons and ammunition ?
3) why a blantant terrorist group (Hamas) can be sponserd by the UN and no one gives a **** about it ?, could i fund AL-Quaida if it had a "political front" and not just a militery one?.
4) why every time israel decides to take a step towards peace ( leaving gaza, altho i have no idea how that will give peace ), palestinians decide they are all-mighty and attack civilians, only to see the troops coming back and whiping them out.
i dont know why, but i just see things this way.. i cant see where palestinians have ever given a hand for peace, i cant find one incident where israel was the "fire-starter" in this whole terror war and its battle's..
1/ they live there and did prior to the founding of Israel. i.e. nationalism
2/ Hatred & fear. applies to both sides.
3/ Evidence? (NB: Hamas does play a humanitarian role within Palestine as well as being terrorist, that's one of the reasons it gains support within there)
4/Because every time Israel steps back, it launches some form of action to avoid looking weak - be it incursions as the ones we're seeing now, building a bloody great illegal wall round the place, or assassinations of terrorist leaders (who often hold a degree of spiritual support)
I think that the causes of this conflict can be put down to mutual culpability - one side takes an action, and the other seeks revenge to avoid looking wounded.
Neither side will probably make peace offerings without international interference. But I think - and I've said this earlier - that Israel is in the best position to make the first move, because it holds the cards - the territory & the military.
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peace != having to like each other
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Who's this 'Roy' you talk of?
Your theory, as far as I can tell, is preserving the status quo that has cause over half a century of mutual violence, hatred and bloodshed. History has proved you cannot use tanks to stop terrorists.
Mine, at least, involves trying to stop that.
No, my theory isnt one of a solution my theory is simply that your theory wont work.
Originally posted by aldo_14
The squalid overcrowded territory which will have to become an independent nation of some sort in order to facilitate lasting peace.
you are paying absolutly no attention are you? you are dealing with terrorists who clearly state thier demands... which is not a Palestinian state! I just PROVED that to you with those links... seriously and then reminded you of those links... I mean I dont know how else to show you this... buy me a plane ticket and ill come over there and make sure you have your eyes open.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Even the IDF admits that's not conclusive evidence. I would hardly call a bunch of local support staff indicative of the rest of the world - which the UN represents - regardless.
The UNs charter was founded to protect the basic rights of man and to seek peaceful solutions instead of armed conflict. Frankly. I can;t think of any more appropriate area for it to pass resolutions on.
they are responsible for thier personell just like any other orginazation acting in that name... IDF soldiers who make mistakes are punished UN workers no matter who they are if they help terrorists need to be punished... thats not hard.
Originally posted by aldo_14
They don't choose to live in Palestine, or in refugee camps in other countries like Syria, Jordan, etc. They don't choose to be stopped from working in Israel because of IDF roadblock. they don't choose to have their homes bulldozed, or their towns cut in half by giant concrete blocks.
they live in Israel there is no Palestine yet. they are not stopped they are inspected for bombs and weapons which will be used to kill civilians. to bad they chose that route they make the innocent civilians living on that side of the road blocks suffer. they do to chose to have thier homes bulldozed... do you even know why or whose houses are bulldozed? the houses of terrorists who have commited murder. towns cut in half by concrete blocks? hardly I suggest you review the route of the wall again and look at what is being done for the ffew landowners affected by its route.
Originally posted by aldo_14
And they started it? If you really want to go all the way back to the beginning, then it's down to the conflict between Arabs & Israelis in 1947, when thousands of Arabs were driven out of what became Israel, at the same time as Jewish refugees came from Arab countries into Israel itself. If you look at history, both started it.
dude thats no where near the begining. the begining was thousands of years before that... you know abraham had 2 sons isac and ishamel and isac was the father of the jews and ismael the arabs. with diffrent mothers of course and them and thier decendents went on to colonize many many many places around and then you have the israelites coming out of egypt and taking cannan and then the babylonian exile and then the return in the late 1800s... i mean dude you skipped about 5000 years or so lol
Originally posted by aldo_14
And someone who is unfortunate enough to get in the way of a bullet? Someone who lives (or tries to) in the refugee camps and sees their house destroyed, or their family caught in crossfire?
Do they deserve it? If not, do they have a right to seek revenge as Israel would for attacks upon it?
To the Palestinian who sees his son/dauighter/wife/etc caught in the crossfire, intention doesn't matter. What matters, is that Israeli troops did it.
Thats called racism. you find out which soldier and prosecute call on the authorities whatever. but to exact your own revenge just because its an IDF soldier? lol dude... Israel acts uppon deliberate attacks upon its civilian population.
Originally posted by aldo_14
So it's blame the big bad arabs overseas, now? So...it's not about Palestinians, but about Arab countries? So why even bother going into Palestine and not attacking them?
dude that was in responce to your claim that after the palestinians get a country the terrorists will lose support and cease. my point is that they get their funding and such form private billionairs overseas in europe and by mullahs in saudi arabia and outrightly by the governments of iran and syria... the palestinian population has no say in weather they continue or not.
Originally posted by aldo_14
So....all Palestinians are idiots who've went bankrupt trying to blow up Israel?
all? no. many many many? yeah. but hey i mean that girl the other week that was stopped before the busstop by the soldier and she blew herself up she was the daughter of a wealthy man who ran a public tv station for palestinians and she was the host the kids show every morning... she wasnt poor.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Look, if you're not going to pay attention to what I'm saying, then there's no point in this. Popular support, that which is accepted by the international community and an accepted necessity for lasting peace, is to have an independent Palestinian state.
yes that is the popular support... and?
Originally posted by aldo_14
Do this, and you remove the legitamacy and defensibility of terrorism. And you also remove the vast majority of popular support. By doing that, you weaken if not destroy the terrorists ability to maintain an infrastructure. You also ensure that any assistance to these terrorists is no longer seen as assisting freedom fighters, but as helping murderous terrorists.
dude if it were the terrorists fighting for a state there is no way anyone would be telling us to cave. the point is the terrorists are jsut a means to an end for the palestinian people... the palestinian people want a homeland well alot of them... the terrorists provide them the publicity they need for thier demands to be heard. the terrorists on the other hand have no intention and dont need to have their support to continue. like I have pointed out many times before... you know if your going to continue like this then the facts about what the palestinian terrorists are fighting for will from now on be reffered to as "Fact X" okay?
so forget that whole paragraph... Fact X is my response and remmber it this time eh?
Originally posted by aldo_14
If you are too blinkered to understand what I'm saying, then it's not my fault. I will spell it out one more time; terrorism exists because of social conditions. The social conditions are the poverty, deprivation, and fear of Palestinians living in the settlements, who have grown to hate Israel as a result of their role in this sorry affair.
and I will spell it out to. F-A-C-T---X!!!! terrorism exists because Israel does. boo frickity hoo.
Originally posted by aldo_14
If you remove the root of that hate, you remove the root of that problem. This hate of Zionism that you are so keen to allude to, is an extension of that hatred - it's justification is rooted as much in the Palestinian situation as it is in religion. Palestine is the key to the solution. solve that, and the rest will follow.
the root of the hate? the existence of jews in what was at one pont muslim land which means by islamic law when they have the chance they are commanded to take it back. so now maybe this argument will shift to a religious debate. :rolleyes:
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So in your eyes Splinter, the only solution is the destruction of the Palestinians?
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If your not going to listen to me, I'm not interesting in the constant ****e you spout.
Unless you're genuinely not listening, you appear to be equating every Palestinian as being an idiotic, Jew-hatic fanatic. I'm not prepared to give any credence to that particularly inane argument.
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Originally posted by vyper
So in your eyes Splinter, the only solution is the destruction of the Palestinians?
nope I never said what my solution is but its deffinetly not that... why kill inocent civilians what will that accomplish?
Originally posted by aldo_14
If your not going to listen to me, I'm not interesting in the constant ****e you spout.
Unless you're genuinely not listening, you appear to be equating every Palestinian as being an idiotic, Jew-hatic fanatic. I'm not prepared to give any credence to that particularly inane argument.
down to personal insults eh? hehe nice.
if thats how it appears to you then you havnt given more then a second glance to my posts because you will find that when I talk about the palestinians and the palestinian terrorists im reffering to 2 very diffrent and distince groups. to bad you had to resort to practically calling me a racist here. quite sad you know. ah well lets hope next time you can keep your cool about you. I would have thought for somone who is apperantly much older then me that would have come naturally. poor show :no:
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[q]nope I never said what my solution is but its deffinetly not that... why kill inocent civilians what will that accomplish?[/q]
Tell the IDF that next time they go into the camps.
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Originally posted by Splinter
down to personal insults eh? hehe nice.
if thats how it appears to you then you havnt given more then a second glance to my posts because you will find that when I talk about the palestinians and the palestinian terrorists im reffering to 2 very diffrent and distince groups. to bad you had to resort to practically calling me a racist here. quite sad you know. ah well lets hope next time you can keep your cool about you. I would have thought for somone who is apperantly much older then me that would have come naturally. poor show :no:
No, you don't. You describe all Palestinians as having bankrupted themselves to bomb Israel. You confirmed it. If you want to push it, then yes, that is blatantly racist.
That shows how much of a zealot you are. You don't want peace, you just want to eradicate them. you're not interesting in trying solutions, just the same failed tactics over and over again, not caring about how many have to die in order to make you think you're winning the unwinnable.
I've made it clear, time and time again that this is not about taking on, or even talking to the terrorists, it's about removing their support. Removing the people that prop them up. Beyond that, it's about basic human decency and doing the right thing.
But you ignore it, eventually resorting to tired stereotypes along the lines of 'they started it' and 'they all hate us'. And then it's 'oh, God put us here, so we have a right' - yet denouncing their own religious reasons for wanting to be there. Tell me, would God be pleased at the thousands of people on both sides who have died needlessly over a tiny sliver of dust & sand?
Blaming the UN, the arab nations, everyone - except maybe looking at your own country and asking "is this the right way to go, if it doesn't work?". Maybe thinking that actually listening to the rest of the world - who are crying out for a proper, peaceful solution- isn't caving in, but the the right thing to do?
you are in a country, which has the ability to choose its own destiny. I would have thought you would have chosen trying for a better future, a peaceful future, ahead of repeating the status quo of blood, hatred and violence.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
No, you don't. You describe all Palestinians as having bankrupted themselves to bomb Israel. You confirmed it. If you want to push it, then yes, that is blatantly racist.
[q]the Palestinian terrorists get support from their own people yes. but do they get the support they need to operate from them? no they are too poor they have squandered any money they did have on trying to blow Israel up in the first year. the support these terrorists get is from outside Israel.[/q]
so I said all Palestinians? no, I said the ones who support the terrorists. now you are putting words in my mouth and trying to pass off my comments as racist? hehe nice. :yes:
Originally posted by aldo_14
That shows how much of a zealot you are. You don't want peace, you just want to eradicate them. you're not interesting in trying solutions, just the same failed tactics over and over again, not caring about how many have to die in order to make you think you're winning the unwinnable.
I want to eradicate whom? because I don’t subscribe to your theory cause I don’t think it will work that means I’m calling for genocide? I'm not interested in trying solutions?! hell i even said your might work but I don’t believe it will I never said we should or shouldn’t try it and if sure never said we should continue on as we are. yeah and about killing all those people... so all the posts about how the innocent civilians and stuff are stuck and that shooting them is crimes etc etc and all that stuff that just what>? registered in your mind that i was saying "yes kill them all!" wtf dude seriously this is sick, your projecting and its a lame attempt at that. I suggest you watch what you type next if you answer this post.
Originally posted by aldo_14
I've made it clear, time and time again that this is not about taking on, or even talking to the terrorists, it's about removing their support. Removing the people that prop them up. Beyond that, it's about basic human decency and doing the right thing.
you are suggesting in principal to do that but when you describe the plan it is not doing that... you will be removing SOME moral support from the Palestinians who do not participate in the acts themselves but like I said they aren’t the money behind the attacks for the most part... you say remove the support I will say again that would be Syria and Iran and some rich oil guys in Saudi Arabia and some rich guys in Europe... so hey if you plan to do all that, sure that might work. but you are simply suggesting you cut out the support they get now from the Palestinian populace which financially is minimal... morally it is huge but then again so is their support from every other Arab nation.
Originally posted by aldo_14
But you ignore it, eventually resorting to tired stereotypes along the lines of 'they started it' and 'they all hate us'. And then it's 'oh, God put us here, so we have a right' - yet denouncing their own religious reasons for wanting to be there. Tell me, would God be pleased at the thousands of people on both sides who have died needlessly over a tiny sliver of dust & sand?
They started it yes. they started this latest bit of violence that lasted these 4 years. that all I meant... and yes all the terrorists do hate us... if they didn’t I hardly think they would blow themselves up. When did I say god put us here so we have a right? you went back in history to see who maybe started it and so I went back further to show you that where you went was nowhere near the beginning... and I never denounced their religious reasons for being there... unless you would like to quote a post of mine and show us all you aren’t just lying again. nasty habit that. you know, your intentions are good you are trying to solve the problem here then you go and spoil it by saying all this crap about me and saying i said all this other crap and all the while I was trying to tell you that I didn’t believe your plan would work and why not. seriously.... this is pretty ridiculous don’t you think?
Originally posted by aldo_14
Blaming the UN, the Arab nations, everyone - except maybe looking at your own country and asking "is this the right way to go, if it doesn't work?". Maybe thinking that actually listening to the rest of the world - who are crying out for a proper, peaceful solution- isn't caving in, but the right thing to do?
again you took me saying that: the PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS would view a peaceful retreat of forces and the claim that we would fight anymore as caving in and a sign of weakness. and you twisted it into saying that i think a peaceful compromise is caving in... if it wasn’t so easy to point out how much you are projecting and twisting my words this would be pissing me off... :rolleyes:
Originally posted by aldo_14
you are in a country, which has the ability to choose its own destiny. I would have thought you would have chosen trying for a better future, a peaceful future, ahead of repeating the status quo of blood, hatred and violence.
well I would love to. but unfortunately because you have gone and lied about what I actually said before I now apparently want to kill all Palestinians I think they are wasteful people all of them I think they all support terrorism I think its all their fault and I think us doing anything peaceful is caving in. thanks you've made me out to be some sort of monster or some sh1t, good thing for me the evidence is right here on the last few pages to disprove you and luckily your a horrible liar. This just gets more and more amusing every post you apparently get more and more desperate. :lol::yes: GG
I suggest before this goes any further you examine what’s been said... hey maybe you have deceived yourself into believing I actually said that stuff you said I did. if so I suggest you work that out it can be harmful. think about it before you post a reply again... you’re on wafer thin ice. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Splinter
so I said all Palestinians? no, I said the ones who support the terrorists. now you are putting words in my mouth and trying to pass off my comments as racist? hehe nice. :yes:
Yup, you pretty much did.
Originally posted by Splinter
I want to eradicate whom? because I don’t subscribe to your theory cause I don’t think it will work that means I’m calling for genocide? I'm not interested in trying solutions?! hell i even said your might work but I don’t believe it will I never said we should or shouldn’t try it and if sure never said we should continue on as we are. yeah and about killing all those people... so all the posts about how the innocent civilians and stuff are stuck and that shooting them is crimes etc etc and all that stuff that just what>? registered in your mind that i was saying "yes kill them all!" wtf dude seriously this is sick, your projecting and its a lame attempt at that. I suggest you watch what you type next if you answer this post.
You're the one who's saying the only option is sending in tanks, aren't you? That there can't be peaceful negotiations?
Originally posted by Splinter
you are suggesting in principal to do that but when you describe the plan it is not doing that... you will be removing SOME moral support from the Palestinians who do not participate in the acts themselves but like I said they aren’t the money behind the attacks for the most part... you say remove the support I will say again that would be Syria and Iran and some rich oil guys in Saudi Arabia and some rich guys in Europe... so hey if you plan to do all that, sure that might work. but you are simply suggesting you cut out the support they get now from the Palestinian populace which financially is minimal... morally it is huge but then again so is their support from every other Arab nation.
Morally, it is key. Where do you think they get their recruits from?
Originally posted by Splinter
They started it yes. they started this latest bit of violence that lasted these 4 years. that all I meant... and yes all the terrorists do hate us... if they didn’t I hardly think they would blow themselves up. When did I say god put us here so we have a right? you went back in history to see who maybe started it and so I went back further to show you that where you went was nowhere near the beginning... and I never denounced their religious reasons for being there... unless you would like to quote a post of mine and show us all you aren’t just lying again. nasty habit that. you know, your intentions are good you are trying to solve the problem here then you go and spoil it by saying all this crap about me and saying i said all this other crap and all the while I was trying to tell you that I didn’t believe your plan would work and why not. seriously.... this is pretty ridiculous don’t you think?
a) you mentioned the bible as justification for Jews being in Israel, implying that meant the Palestinians (or rather, arab residents) had no claim.
b) if you go back to the bible as evidence of the origins, then your on very,very shaky ground. The bible is not guarenteed to be true, for you maybe, but for others it is mere folklore and myth
c) you've not given a proper reason why a peace effort would not work, only spouted nonsense about 'the terrorists hate us' without considering one of the key reasons.
d) Sharon - alleged war criminal visitng a site known to be of contention. (a nice election ploy, too - the hard man is elected just as he helps set of an intifada)
Originally posted by Splinter
again you took me saying that: the PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS would view a peaceful retreat of forces and the claim that we would fight anymore as caving in and a sign of weakness. and you twisted it into saying that i think a peaceful compromise is caving in... if it wasn’t so easy to point out how much you are projecting and twisting my words this would be pissing me off... :rolleyes:
I didn't twist anything. That's exactly what you said, because you;ve consistently failed to discriminate between the Palestinian populace and the terrorists.
Originally posted by Splinter
well I would love to. but unfortunately because you have gone and lied about what I actually said before I now apparently want to kill all Palestinians I think they are wasteful people all of them I think they all support terrorism I think its all their fault and I think us doing anything peaceful is caving in. thanks you've made me out to be some sort of monster or some sh1t, good thing for me the evidence is right here on the last few pages to disprove you and luckily your a horrible liar. This just gets more and more amusing every post you apparently get more and more desperate. :lol::yes: GG
I suggest before this goes any further you examine what’s been said... hey maybe you have deceived yourself into believing I actually said that stuff you said I did. if so I suggest you work that out it can be harmful. think about it before you post a reply again... you’re on wafer thin ice. :rolleyes:
So you now agree that most Palestinians have not bankrupted themselves trying to blow up Israel, and actually live in poverty as a consequence of the situation in the Palestinian territories? (specifically the effect of the ongoing conflict on free trade and movement for arabs who work or want to in Israel)
You've talked in what sometimes seems extremist language, without a willingness to understand the point of view of the other side and why they do what they do.
I've interpreted literally what you've said.
If you think this is twisted, then maybe you should clearly and explictly state;
a) why peaceful negotiations towards the establishment of Palestine would not lead to peace and security in the region?
b) whether you think a peaceful solution should be attempted?
c) what your solution to this problem would be?
d) whether you can recognise why terrorists want to attack Israel directly and IDF troops in Palestine & what you think that reason is?
e) if the current strategy of disproportionate response is reducing or increasing terrorism?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
You're the one who's saying the only option is sending in tanks, aren't you? That there can't be peaceful negotiations?
ok I have jsut told you liek 3 times in a row that that is exactly what im not saying! I never said anything about a solution you have never heard me put forth my ideas for a solution. and I never said there cant be peaceful negotiations. I keep telling you that THE (singular) way you are suggesting wont work. that does not mean that there cant be peaceful negotiations... isnt english your native tounge... shouldnt you understand this after it is said just once?
Originally posted by aldo_14
Morally, it is key. Where do you think they get their recruits from?
currently they have enough recruits to not run out in many many years. have you not ever seen the marches of hammas there are hundreds of thousands... and belive me if we said we would stop retaliating and we sat down gave them thier state and all they would realise that without retaliation they wouldnt have to give up their lives and kill themselves anymore they could just plant bombs and be far away when they go off... and tahts the 2nd time iv said THAT!
Originally posted by aldo_14
a) you mentioned the bible as justification for Jews being in Israel, implying that meant the Palestinians (or rather, arab residents) had no claim.
b) if you go back to the bible as evidence of the origins, then your on very,very shaky ground. The bible is not guarenteed to be true, for you maybe, but for others it is mere folklore and myth
c) you've not given a proper reason why a peace effort would not work, only spouted nonsense about 'the terrorists hate us' without considering one of the key reasons.
d) Sharon - alleged war criminal visitng a site known to be of contention. (a nice election ploy, too - the hard man is elected just as he helps set of an intifada)
a) I did no such thing
b) I go back to the Bible as evidence that you cant just say oh before 1948 the arabs owned it so its thiers I go back that far to show you that you CAN go back taht far and still not decide wholly whose it is. and the bible may not be garunteed truth for you but that part is a truth both arabs and jews belive in so its good enough for them.
c) Fact X
d) what does this have to do with anything? so a guy visits a site and tahts an act of war?! yeah ok man. if for you that means Israel started this then ok I think that wrong but hey lol to each his own. but I ask you (your english right?) if you saw a person from northern Ireland at the... uhh london tower or somthing... would you start 4 year war over it?
Originally posted by aldo_14
I didn't twist anything. That's exactly what you said, because you;ve consistently failed to discriminate between the Palestinian populace and the terrorists.
exactly what I said? so quote me. show me where I dont know the diffrence...
Originally posted by aldo_14
So you now agree that most Palestinians have not bankrupted themselves trying to blow up Israel, and actually live in poverty as a consequence of the situation in the Palestinian territories? (specifically the effect of the ongoing conflict on free trade and movement for arabs who work or want to in Israel)
I do? now your telling me what I agree to? I suggest you use the quote tool when claiming these things. like so:
[q]so I said all Palestinians? no, I said the ones who support the terrorists. now you are putting words in my mouth and trying to pass off my comments as racist? hehe nice.[q]
See? I just told you there what I thought. now how exacltly do you take that to mean that I agree that "most Palestinians have not bankrupted themselves trying to blow up Israel, and actually live in poverty as a consequence of the situation in the Palestinian territories."
Originally posted by aldo_14
You've talked in what sometimes seems extremist language, without a willingness to understand the point of view of the other side and why they do what they do.
I've interpreted literally what you've said.
If you think this is twisted, then maybe you should clearly and explictly state;
a) why peaceful negotiations towards the establishment of Palestine would not lead to peace and security in the region?
b) whether you think a peaceful solution should be attempted?
c) what your solution to this problem would be?
d) whether you can recognise why terrorists want to attack Israel directly and IDF troops in Palestine & what you think that reason is?
e) if the current strategy of disproportionate response is reducing or increasing terrorism?
good god man If what I have said before this post wasnt clear then... well I hope you dont have this kind of trouble understanding people in day to day discussions. I will try one more time to clear this up for you.
A) Why your suggestion wouldnt work? see Fact X. other peaceful negotiations... bring em up and ill tell you but as of yet I havnt commented on them.
B) yes, when possible this is always the better way.
C) I dont see a solution at the moment.
D) I already told you I can think of 1 million and one reasons for them to but you seem to have somthing sepcific in mind and you should share.
E) Dont know. Would have to look at current statistics... I can tell you what IS reducing the terrorist activites although I already have... go back and find my post about the wall.
I hope that thats the last time i will have to repeat myself. what you were doing was taking that because I didnt agree with (a) the meant that I automatically said that I agreed with (c) when actually I didnt comment on what I agreed on and in actuality that I agreed with (b). I suggest you dont do that anymore it can be very confusing and frustrating.
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Originally posted by Splinter
ok I have jsut told you liek 3 times in a row that that is exactly what im not saying! I never said anything about a solution you have never heard me put forth my ideas for a solution. and I never said there cant be peaceful negotiations. I keep telling you that THE (singular) way you are suggesting wont work. that does not mean that there cant be peaceful negotiations... isnt english your native tounge... shouldnt you understand this after it is said just once?
why? All you've said is either a) they would see it as Israeli weakness and b) it's because the terrorists all hate Israel - and b) in particular is not valid if you recognise that not all Palestinians are terrorists. (a is also highly debatable)
Originally posted by Splinter
currently they have enough recruits to not run out in many many years. have you not ever seen the marches of hammas there are hundreds of thousands... and belive me if we said we would stop retaliating and we sat down gave them thier state and all they would realise that without retaliation they wouldnt have to give up their lives and kill themselves anymore they could just plant bombs and be far away when they go off... and tahts the 2nd time iv said THAT!
Whilst you try and slag me off as if english is not my language, I have to re-read that about 3 times to understand it - so forgive me if i misunderstand.
So... what you're saying is that Hamas has hundreds of thousands of Palestinian recruits. And if peace was achieved, they'd still want to run out and plant bombs, because they have nothing better to do.
Perhaps you have not considered the political role Hamas play in Palestine as well as the terrorist role outside? Namely that the former can be used to gain support from people that would not participate or endorse terrorism?
You should also not I never said no retaliating, I said peace. i.e. ceasefire, truce, etc. In other words, seeking an alternative & eventual end to this senseless cycle of violence, rather than helping perpetuate this.
Originally posted by Splinter
a) I did no such thing
b) I go back to the Bible as evidence that you cant just say oh before 1948 the arabs owned it so its thiers I go back that far to show you that you CAN go back taht far and still not decide wholly whose it is. and the bible may not be garunteed truth for you but that part is a truth both arabs and jews belive in so its good enough for them.
c) Fact X
d) what does this have to do with anything? so a guy visits a site and tahts an act of war?! yeah ok man. if for you that means Israel started this then ok I think that wrong but hey lol to each his own. but I ask you (your english right?) if you saw a person from northern Ireland at the... uhh london tower or somthing... would you start 4 year war over it?
b) So you agree that both sides can have a valid historical claim which goes beyond the point in history where it is verifiable. Good.
c) see later
d) He should have been aware of the significance of his visit, as nearly everyone else was. If, as you claim, this is a holy war then he should have been more than aware of what would happen. I'm not blaming Sharon exclusively for this, but he should have considered that he would be presenting a pretext for further troubles and erred on the sign of caution.
NB: you've shown a complete misunderstanding of the Irish troubles, BTW. For a long time the UK used similar tactics to that of ISrael in dealing with the IRA - targeted assassinations (SAS shoot on sight), heavy military presence, etc. It did, of course, differ in its exact nature (it's not a case of entering a ghetto of popular resistance ) - but the only concrete peace has come from long & hard negotiations, such as the Good Friday Agreement.
Originally posted by Splinter
See? I just told you there what I thought. now how exacltly do you take that to mean that I agree that "most Palestinians have not bankrupted themselves trying to blow up Israel, and actually live in poverty as a consequence of the situation in the Palestinian territories."
Exactly that. In other words, a retraction of your statement that most (nearly all) Palestinians bankrupted themselves trying to bomb Israel. Followed by an acceptment that the poverty situation of the territories is exacerbated by the roadblocks, etc, and the continuing conflict, and that a permanent solution is required to help correct this & allow these people to rebuild their lives.
Originally posted by Splinter
good god man If what I have said before this post wasnt clear then... well I hope you dont have this kind of trouble understanding people in day to day discussions. I will try one more time to clear this up for you.
A) Why your suggestion wouldnt work? see Fact X. other peaceful negotiations... bring em up and ill tell you but as of yet I havnt commented on them.
B) yes, when possible this is always the better way.
C) I dont see a solution at the moment.
D) I already told you I can think of 1 million and one reasons for them to but you seem to have somthing sepcific in mind and you should share.
E) Dont know. Would have to look at current statistics... I can tell you what IS reducing the terrorist activites although I already have... go back and find my post about the wall.
I hope that thats the last time i will have to repeat myself. what you were doing was taking that because I didnt agree with (a) the meant that I automatically said that I agreed with (c) when actually I didnt comment on what I agreed on and in actuality that I agreed with (b). I suggest you dont do that anymore it can be very confusing and frustrating.
a) I don't believe that's true. Firstly, I think the hatred of Zionism is limited to a select group of die-hards in the terrorist factions and secondly I believe that it can be reduced and removed in the Palestinian population when you remove the main reason behind it (the current situation within the territories). (NB: and that the main reason recruits join the like of Hamas is because of the situation over the territories rather than a blind hatred)
At the moment there is little to lose for the terrorists - they literally have nothing but hate. Give them something for peace, and they have a lot more to lose, and a lot less reason to fight.
In other words, reduce the hate by removing the key reasons behind where possible.
b).
c) I see the best solution as trying for peace. Not, I should emphasise, a universal withdrawl, but a mutual ceasefire with clear 'breakage' conditions and penalties. This should be very public, to make it exactly clear that neither side will take action and that if they do, then they are aware that the consequence will be further bloodshed.
Followed by this, negotiations between the civillian authorities, Israel and the UN to establish a seperate Palestinian state and which will include the formal diplomatic recognition of Israel by Arab nations (as well as the signing of non-aggression treaties). Also including the Palestinian (now) government signing an undertaking to ensure Israeli security through the removal of terrorist elements (with UN oversight to ensure this is done), etc.
Areas which are of dual/ equal interest, i.e. contested sites, would be administered by a UN peacekeeping force and be considered 'free cities'.
Um... and other stuff, too. But it's morning and my head hurts.
d) would you agree a key reason (behind terrorism/militancy) is that they feel oppressed and attacked within the Palestinian territories, and that as a result they justify attacks and hatred of Israel with this?
(NB mentioned this lots of times before, i'm surprised you've not picked up upon it. It's a simple case of having a pretext which allows terrorists to justify and gain support for their worst crimes from within their own people/recruit source)
e) But the wall is illegal under international law (and there is a reason for these laws) and will ultimately back fire if not already - it's simple - it's turning the areas it borders into virtual prisons. This means that deprivation, overcrowding, etc in the enwalled areas will become ever more acute - breeding more resentment and hence more terrorists. Even if there is a lull, there won't be a halt, and its more likely there will simply be a change in attack methods ala the rocket attacks.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
1/ they live there and did prior to the founding of Israel. i.e. nationalism
2/ Hatred & fear. applies to both sides.
3/ Evidence? (NB: Hamas does play a humanitarian role within Palestine as well as being terrorist, that's one of the reasons it gains support within there)
4/Because every time Israel steps back, it launches some form of action to avoid looking weak - be it incursions as the ones we're seeing now, building a bloody great illegal wall round the place, or assassinations of terrorist leaders (who often hold a degree of spiritual support)
I think that the causes of this conflict can be put down to mutual culpability - one side takes an action, and the other seeks revenge to avoid looking wounded.
Neither side will probably make peace offerings without international interference. But I think - and I've said this earlier - that Israel is in the best position to make the first move, because it holds the cards - the territory & the military.
1) werent the jews there like from the begginning of time? also why dont indians have a right for terrorizing america ?
2) i dont think israel ever initiated a direct assault to kill civilians, just like america doesnt go around looking for civilians to kill in iraq, its casualties of war, and usually the ones that get killed are people who were all cheering for those with the guns.
3) evidence ? the UN chief said it himself two days ago ? its well established, and i dont see how they control the funds going for hamas "humanitarian support" going to terrorist's.
4) now thats just throwing accusations, if ur talking about the recent event, its about israel backing out and 100 missles getting launched just from where they backed out killing young children, the wall being illegial, is your opinion, assasinating terrorist leaders is wrong ? maybe they should just send them money to keep the action going ?
now here is my opinion, it doesnt take 2 sides to make revenge acts for this circle to go own, it only takes 1 side.
as far as im seeing Israel has only but defended itself for now, and palestinians played the "revengfull" role, lets not forget they started the whole thing and could stop at the minute they want to.
seems rather blinded to blame both sides, thats what you do when you have no idea who to blame.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
why? All you've said is either a) they would see it as Israeli weakness and b) it's because the terrorists all hate Israel - and b) in particular is not valid if you recognise that not all Palestinians are terrorists. (a is also highly debatable)
That’s all I’ve said? I haven’t said that ummm FACT X and I also haven’t said it wont work because THE FUNDING THE TERRORISTS NEED FOR SUCCESFULL OPERATION COMES FROM OUTSIDE THIER OWN PEOPLE AND THEY HAVE SHOWN BEFORE BOTH IN JORDAN AND IN LEBANON THEY WILL FIGHT ANYONE IN A CIVIL WAR IF THEY TRY AND STOP THEM! There I added that bit about Jordan and Lebanon... hope that sheds more light on the picture. Terrorists don’t care... they really don’t.
Originally posted by aldo_14
So... what you're saying is that Hamas has hundreds of thousands of Palestinian recruits. And if peace was achieved, they'd still want to run out and plant bombs, because they have nothing better to do.
It’s impossible to tell just how many but if you can take any judgment from the marches? Yeah that many... I wouldn’t limit it to just hamas though there is PFLP Islamic Jihad Fatah Hezbollah... no this is the last time I will repeat this. FACT X!!!!!! GOOD GOD READ THIER CREDO. It stats the destruction of all of Israel and the nation of Palestine IN ITS PLACE!!!! You get that?! That’s their goal they will not stop for peace they have never stopped for peace even when it was being negotiated.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Perhaps you have not considered the political role Hamas play in Palestine as well as the terrorist role outside? Namely that the former can be used to gain support from people that would not participate or endorse terrorism?
Ok and? What’s the point so they have lots of support... I know this... so they will lose moral support among some Palestinians if they get their state so what? The terrorists will still have the ability and desire to try and attack Israeli civilians.
Originally posted by aldo_14
You should also not I never said no retaliating, I said peace. i.e. ceasefire, truce, etc. In other words, seeking an alternative & eventual end to this senseless cycle of violence, rather than helping perpetuate this.
Dude ceasefire and truce that’s the same thing... not retaliating because every time something like that has been called the terrorists break it by attacking over and over and over again what makes you think this time it will stop?
Originally posted by aldo_14
b) So you agree that both sides can have a valid historical claim which goes beyond the point in history where it is verifiable. Good.
c) see later
d) He should have been aware of the significance of his visit, as nearly everyone else was. If, as you claim, this is a holy war then he should have been more than aware of what would happen. I'm not blaming Sharon exclusively for this, but he should have considered that he would be presenting a pretext for further troubles and erred on the sign of caution.
b) Sure I do... I always have.
d) You didn’t answer my question... in the ruff times with the IRA or whatever they are called had one of them come to an English "holy site" (and mind you in this case the place Sharon visited is also holy to Jews) that was also "holy" or beloved to Irish folks would that have justified England going off and killing a bunch of them over there? Would that have even made people that mad as to the point of wanting to kill Irish people? Seriously.
Originally posted by aldo_14
NB: you've shown a complete misunderstanding of the Irish troubles, BTW. For a long time the UK used similar tactics to that of ISrael in dealing with the IRA - targeted assassinations (SAS shoot on sight), heavy military presence, etc. It did, of course, differ in its exact nature (it's not a case of entering a ghetto of popular resistance ) - but the only concrete peace has come from long & hard negotiations, such as the Good Friday Agreement.
What’s NB? And I know it’s different in many aspects but just answer the question it’s still valid... or better yet... answer this one. Do you think Sharon’s visit to a Muslim AND Jewish holy site was a justifiable act of war and they had a right to start this whole thing over that?
Originally posted by aldo_14
Exactly that. In other words, a retraction of your statement that most (nearly all) Palestinians bankrupted themselves trying to bomb Israel. Followed by an acceptment that the poverty situation of the territories is exacerbated by the roadblocks, etc, and the continuing conflict, and that a permanent solution is required to help correct this & allow these people to rebuild their lives.
Ok you refuse to just take my statements "as are" you HAVE to take them and say that because I said that that means I also mean this. I refuse to answer you when you do that it’s ridiculous and very rude.
Originally posted by aldo_14
a) I don't believe that's true. Firstly, I think the hatred of Zionism is limited to a select group of die-hards in the terrorist factions and secondly I believe that it can be reduced and removed in the Palestinian population when you remove the main reason behind it (the current situation within the territories). (NB: and that the main reason recruits join the like of Hamas is because of the situation over the territories rather than a blind hatred)
Fact X. it’s their whole purpose. And I wish you not believing it to be true made a difference but it doesn’t fact is what is written by them the oaths they take the reason they kill themselves in the name of Allah. For them this is a very religious based war I suggest you look into what makes it tick mainly the part where if there is ever land/territory that was once Muslim it is forever Muslim land and must be taken back when the opportunity is there as in no matter what Israel must go... also allot of Europe will be under attack soon because of the wars after the crusades where they held much of Europe... also the part where they are encouraged to become Sahadeeds (martyrs who kill themselves along with others who they are fighting) just a bunch of crap that urge them on... its quite interesting if you have Azereaus or something like it I can give you a link to a documentary about some of this I just dled the other day.
Originally posted by aldo_14
At the moment there is little to lose for the terrorists - they literally have nothing but hate. Give them something for peace, and they have a lot more to lose, and a lot less reason to fight.
In other words, reduce the hate by removing the key reasons behind where possible.
b).
They have plenty to lose! They have families and stuff. The thing is they have everything to gain by doing this. By killing yourself and Jews along with you, you get.
1. A martyrs celebration where your name is praised and murals drawn
2. Terrorist nations send your family an ass load of money
3. You are now a prince of paradise and 72 virgins whose virginity regrows every time you screw them.
They are brought up to have that as their highest aspiration in their schools in their homes. That is what they have to gain.
Originally posted by aldo_14
c) I see the best solution as trying for peace. Not, I should emphasise, a universal withdrawl, but a mutual ceasefire with clear 'breakage' conditions and penalties. This should be very public, to make it exactly clear that neither side will take action and that if they do, then they are aware that the consequence will be further bloodshed.
Followed by this, negotiations between the civillian authorities, Israel and the UN to establish a seperate Palestinian state and which will include the formal diplomatic recognition of Israel by Arab nations (as well as the signing of non-aggression treaties). Also including the Palestinian (now) government signing an undertaking to ensure Israeli security through the removal of terrorist elements (with UN oversight to ensure this is done), etc.
Areas which are of dual/ equal interest, i.e. contested sites, would be administered by a UN peacekeeping force and be considered 'free cities'.
Um... and other stuff, too. But it's morning and my head hurts.
Dude this offer is already in place it ahs been since the beginning. We beg them stop the attacks so will we and we can broker a deal! Forget it they wont the terrorists DONT CARE!
Originally posted by aldo_14
d) would you agree a key reason (behind terrorism/militancy) is that they feel oppressed and attacked within the Palestinian territories, and that as a result they justify attacks and hatred of Israel with this?
No. I would agree its part of the reason for a select FEW. I will agree however that some supporters of the terrorist acts PRETEND to justify their actions with this so that the international community will not see the blatant FACT X.
Originally posted by aldo_14
(NB mentioned this lots of times before, i'm surprised you've not picked up upon it. It's a simple case of having a pretext which allows terrorists to justify and gain support for their worst crimes from within their own people/recruit source)
The only support THAT gains them is from the outside world. Believe me the Palestinians are not stupid they know exactly what the terrorists are doing. And the terrorists are not hiding it... you would think people would be able to see that.
Originally posted by aldo_14
e) But the wall is illegal under international law (and there is a reason for these laws) and will ultimately back fire if not already - it's simple - it's turning the areas it borders into virtual prisons. This means that deprivation, overcrowding, etc in the enwalled areas will become ever more acute - breeding more resentment and hence more terrorists. Even if there is a lull, there won't be a halt, and its more likely there will simply be a change in attack methods ala the rocket attacks.
Ok about the security fence I REALLY REALLY don’t care if its legal illegal I really don’t give a rats tiny ass! Its working that’s what matters. Not one terrorist has gotten out of the Gaza strip since the completion of the partition around them and in places on the west bank that the wall has been completed terrorism is down %50! Would be more except they are just going around to the gaps... but the results speak for themselves and I'm glad Israel is doing it. They are protecting their civilians in the most nonviolent way possible. And it’s working. So. All those who don’t like the wall can piss off. People’s lives are saved and those people right now are flipping you off (not you Aldo "you" as in all those who don't like the wall). :lol::yes:
FFRule has the right Idea. :thepimp:
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Originally posted by ffRule
1) werent the jews there like from the begginning of time? also why dont indians have a right for terrorizing america ?
2) i dont think israel ever initiated a direct assault to kill civilians, just like america doesnt go around looking for civilians to kill in iraq, its casualties of war, and usually the ones that get killed are people who were all cheering for those with the guns.
3) evidence ? the UN chief said it himself two days ago ? its well established, and i dont see how they control the funds going for hamas "humanitarian support" going to terrorist's.
4) now thats just throwing accusations, if ur talking about the recent event, its about israel backing out and 100 missles getting launched just from where they backed out killing young children, the wall being illegial, is your opinion, assasinating terrorist leaders is wrong ? maybe they should just send them money to keep the action going ?
now here is my opinion, it doesnt take 2 sides to make revenge acts for this circle to go own, it only takes 1 side.
as far as im seeing Israel has only but defended itself for now, and palestinians played the "revengfull" role, lets not forget they started the whole thing and could stop at the minute they want to.
seems rather blinded to blame both sides, thats what you do when you have no idea who to blame.
1/ I didn't say they had a right, I said they had a reason to do so. I'm not excusing their actions, but I feel you have to understand them and tackle that reason to have a proper solution.
2/ Fear, for example, led to the wall. To people being unwilling to make positive modes. Mutual distrust, in other words, is a block upon peace.
3/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3719432.stm (yesterday, 6/10/04). Besides which, this is not UN funding of Hamas - it is individual sympathisers who, if guilty, are abusing the UN.
4/ The wall was declared illegal by the International Court of Justice. Not my opinion, it is a legal fact. The UN also voted to condemn it.
I think history has proven that targeted assasinations don't really work, because the leader becomes a martyr and someone else steps up to take his place. The result is, of course, attempts at revenge. So I don't believe assassinations are conductive towards a ceasefire.
EDIT; Israel attacks terrorists as revenge for attacks, terrorists attack Israel for revenge.... you can see where this is going, yeah?
Oh, and I blame both sides when both are at fault. The Palestinians for terrorism, and Israel for holding this land in contravention of the UNs rulings... http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpalnew/security_council.htm
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Originally posted by ffRule
1) werent the jews there like from the begginning of time? also why dont indians have a right for terrorizing america ?
2) i dont think israel ever initiated a direct assault to kill civilians, just like america doesnt go around looking for civilians to kill in iraq, its casualties of war, and usually the ones that get killed are people who were all cheering for those with the guns.
3) evidence ? the UN chief said it himself two days ago ? its well established, and i dont see how they control the funds going for hamas "humanitarian support" going to terrorist's.
4) now thats just throwing accusations, if ur talking about the recent event, its about israel backing out and 100 missles getting launched just from where they backed out killing young children, the wall being illegial, is your opinion, assasinating terrorist leaders is wrong ? maybe they should just send them money to keep the action going ?
now here is my opinion, it doesnt take 2 sides to make revenge acts for this circle to go own, it only takes 1 side.
as far as im seeing Israel has only but defended itself for now, and palestinians played the "revengfull" role, lets not forget they started the whole thing and could stop at the minute they want to.
seems rather blinded to blame both sides, thats what you do when you have no idea who to blame.
:wtf:
1 - The land was theirs except for a small part that was owned by members of the jewish community. Politically, Israel as a jewish state hadn't existed for well over a millenia, while multiple nations existed and owned that land. Indians don't have a right to terrorize the US (nor does anyone else has the right to terrorize anybody), besides the fact that they compensated the Indians, created reserves, *gasp* allowed them to enter and leave their (US) cities! *gasp*, etc, etc, etc...
2 - If you iniciate a "war" you are going to have civies dying. I don't think any war in the 20th century had no civilian casualties. By the way, how would you react if for some wierd reason, your countrymen were commiting acts of terrorism in another country while your own was ocupied by that other country?
4 - link?
For the conclusion. It takes both sides to make a circle. If it's only one side attacking it's mearly a full assault. Which I don't remember hearing in the news Israel being under siege by the Palestinian (being "literaly" the other way around ironicly).
And they started it? :wtf: :lol: That's funny...
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Originally posted by Splinter
That’s all I’ve said? I haven’t said that ummm FACT X and I also haven’t said it wont work because THE FUNDING THE TERRORISTS NEED FOR SUCCESFULL OPERATION COMES FROM OUTSIDE THIER OWN PEOPLE AND THEY HAVE SHOWN BEFORE BOTH IN JORDAN AND IN LEBANON THEY WILL FIGHT ANYONE IN A CIVIL WAR IF THEY TRY AND STOP THEM! There I added that bit about Jordan and Lebanon... hope that sheds more light on the picture. Terrorists don’t care... they really don’t.
If there is a civil war, will they be attacking Israel? No, they'll be fighting in a civil war. So what are you worried about? The Palestinains? If you wre, you wouldn't be so keen on the wall.
Originally posted by Splinter
It’s impossible to tell just how many but if you can take any judgment from the marches? Yeah that many... I wouldn’t limit it to just hamas though there is PFLP Islamic Jihad Fatah Hezbollah... no this is the last time I will repeat this. FACT X!!!!!! GOOD GOD READ THIER CREDO. It stats the destruction of all of Israel and the nation of Palestine IN ITS PLACE!!!! You get that?! That’s their goal they will not stop for peace they have never stopped for peace even when it was being negotiated.
Read my previous reply/s RE: depth of extremism and context for violence.
Originally posted by Splinter
Ok and? What’s the point so they have lots of support... I know this... so they will lose moral support among some Palestinians if they get their state so what? The terrorists will still have the ability and desire to try and attack Israeli civilians.
They'll lose logistical support if they lose moral support.
Originally posted by Splinter
Dude ceasefire and truce that’s the same thing... not retaliating because every time something like that has been called the terrorists break it by attacking over and over and over again what makes you think this time it will stop?
Israel have also conducted raids into the territories during ceasefires, as well as IIRC assassinations of terrorist figureheads.
Originally posted by Splinter
b) Sure I do... I always have.
d) You didn’t answer my question... in the ruff times with the IRA or whatever they are called had one of them come to an English "holy site" (and mind you in this case the place Sharon visited is also holy to Jews) that was also "holy" or beloved to Irish folks would that have justified England going off and killing a bunch of them over there? Would that have even made people that mad as to the point of wanting to kill Irish people? Seriously.
The IRA/ Northern Ireland situation is not analogous to this. Firstly, there are no holy sites contended by both sides. Secondly, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been any British political leader accused of war crimes against the Irish. Thirdly, N.Ireland is not of a single national group but 2. Fourthly, the Irish troubles were not about the establishment of an independent nation but of unifying an existing one. Fifth, British troops were never deployed en masse in Ireland to hunt down Irish terrorists (which would be the closest parallel to the IDFs operations within the territories).
In order to be analogous situation, I would imagine the UK would have to be occupying all of Ireland with a strong military force for a very long time (>50 years). When this was true, it was more or less resolved peacefully - albiet after a long conflict - with the then IRA disbanding.
Now, I've not said this was a valid justification for the intifada. But in this sort of situation, any justification will be inviting trouble. It's effectively giving ammunition to the terrorists, and that's not advisable.
Originally posted by Splinter
What’s NB? And I know it’s different in many aspects but just answer the question it’s still valid... or better yet... answer this one. Do you think Sharon’s visit to a Muslim AND Jewish holy site was a justifiable act of war and they had a right to start this whole thing over that?
NB: Nota bine (from latin); means an additional point o relevance. Like notes jotted in pencil down the margins of a book.
No, I don't believe it was a fair justification. But, I believe it was also obvious that it would give one to Palestinains, because they have a different mindset which is more prone to anger against Israel, as a result of the long history.
what you may not have noted, is that my argument in this area is two-fold. 1/ you can't allow terrorists to have any justification 2/ the Palestinian mindset is one which, due to history, lives in a seige mentality - so you have to be very careful to avoid this sort of thing.
tip-toeing on eggshels might seem a little undignified, but it's important to avoid violence.
Originally posted by Splinter
Ok you refuse to just take my statements "as are" you HAVE to take them and say that because I said that that means I also mean this. I refuse to answer you when you do that it’s ridiculous and very rude.
So you agree with me then? I'm only paraphrasing what you said in a number of previous posts;
[q]Originally posted by Splinter
the palestinian terrorists get support from their onw people yes. but do they get the support they need to operate from them? no they are to poor they have squandered any money they did have on trying to blow israel up in the first year. the support these terrorists get is from outside Israel.[/q]
[q]Originally posted by aldo_14
So....all Palestinians are idiots who've went bankrupt trying to blow up Israel?[/q]
[q]all? no. many many many? yeah. but hey i mean that girl the other week that was stopped before the busstop by the soldier and she blew herself up she was the daughter of a wealthy man who ran a public tv station for palestinians and she was the host the kids show every morning... she wasnt poor. [/q]
You said, twice, that many Palestinians are idiots who've bankrupted themselves trying to blow up Israel. Unless you wish to retract that, of course.
Originally posted by Splinter
Fact X. it’s their whole purpose. And I wish you not believing it to be true made a difference but it doesn’t fact is what is written by them the oaths they take the reason they kill themselves in the name of Allah. For them this is a very religious based war I suggest you look into what makes it tick mainly the part where if there is ever land/territory that was once Muslim it is forever Muslim land and must be taken back when the opportunity is there as in no matter what Israel must go... also allot of Europe will be under attack soon because of the wars after the crusades where they held much of Europe... also the part where they are encouraged to become Sahadeeds (martyrs who kill themselves along with others who they are fighting) just a bunch of crap that urge them on... its quite interesting if you have Azereaus or something like it I can give you a link to a documentary about some of this I just dled the other day.
(see previous post rE: this much vaunted 'fact x' vs degrees of extremism)
If you're pointing to Muslim history as a reason for a threat, maybe you should also point out the history of the Crusades themselves?
NB: the 'Muslims' never held much of Europe. Even the Ottoman empire never covered what is considered mainland europe, reaching about as far north as Hungary IIRC.
Originally posted by Splinter
They have plenty to lose! They have families and stuff. The thing is they have everything to gain by doing this. By killing yourself and Jews along with you, you get.
1. A martyrs celebration where your name is praised and murals drawn
2. Terrorist nations send your family an ass load of money
3. You are now a prince of paradise and 72 virgins whose virginity regrows every time you screw them.
They are brought up to have that as their highest aspiration in their schools in their homes. That is what they have to gain.
Do they have families to lose if their families get caught in crossfire? Or homes if those are bulldozed? you've basically described why death is more attractive to them than living in the squalor of the territories, which is exactly my point about why you have to tackle this.
Originally posted by Splinter
Dude this offer is already in place it ahs been since the beginning. We beg them stop the attacks so will we and we can broker a deal! Forget it they wont the terrorists DONT CARE!
No. I would agree its part of the reason for a select FEW. I will agree however that some supporters of the terrorist acts PRETEND to justify their actions with this so that the international community will not see the blatant FACT X. [/B][/quote]
You say some, I say many. I don't believe extremism is endemic to Palestinians, but a product of the conditions and political situation they live in.
(Of course, you don't broker the eventual solution RE: Palestine with terrorists, but with the Palestinian civil leaders)
Originally posted by Splinter
The only support THAT gains them is from the outside world. Believe me the Palestinians are not stupid they know exactly what the terrorists are doing. And the terrorists are not hiding it... you would think people would be able to see that.
Originally posted by Splinter
Ok about the security fence I REALLY REALLY don’t care if its legal illegal I really don’t give a rats tiny ass! Its working that’s what matters. Not one terrorist has gotten out of the Gaza strip since the completion of the partition around them and in places on the west bank that the wall has been completed terrorism is down %50! Would be more except they are just going around to the gaps... but the results speak for themselves and I'm glad Israel is doing it. They are protecting their civilians in the most nonviolent way possible. And it’s working. So. All those who don’t like the wall can piss off. People’s lives are saved and those people right now are flipping you off (not you Aldo "you" as in all those who don't like the wall). :lol::yes:
FFRule has the right Idea. :thepimp:
What about the innocent people trapped within the barrier who have lost their livelihood (through being unable to get to work within Israel), or their land. Why do you think the UN and the ICJ have decided the barrier is illegal?
If the barrier has worked as you say, then the only reason it has done so is by turning the enclosed areas into a virtual(?) prison. Legal? I think not.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
If there is a civil war, will they be attacking Israel? No, they'll be fighting in a civil war. So what are you worried about? The Palestinains? If you wre, you wouldn't be so keen on the wall.
Palestinian Civil war would be devastating for them and hurt them more then anything we have or could do atm. yes it just goes to prove that you didnt read the post I made on the wall... I suggest you study it.
Originally posted by aldo_14
They'll lose logistical support if they lose moral support.
ok you just keep refusing to aknowledge that I dont think it will work and you do I differ I HAVE PROVEN WITH FACT why I think your plan wont work accept that and move on any reply to this matter which was already resolved the first time I posted the answer will be ignored. finally.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Israel have also conducted raids into the territories during ceasefires, as well as IIRC assassinations of terrorist figureheads.
during ceasefires? maybe... I would have to see though... go look it up post a link.
Originally posted by aldo_14
The IRA/ Northern Ireland situation is not analogous to this. Firstly, there are no holy sites contended by both sides. Secondly, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been any British political leader accused of war crimes against the Irish. Thirdly, N.Ireland is not of a single national group but 2. Fourthly, the Irish troubles were not about the establishment of an independent nation but of unifying an existing one. Fifth, British troops were never deployed en masse in Ireland to hunt down Irish terrorists (which would be the closest parallel to the IDFs operations within the territories).
In order to be analogous situation, I would imagine the UK would have to be occupying all of Ireland with a strong military force for a very long time (>50 years). When this was true, it was more or less resolved peacefully - albiet after a long conflict - with the then IRA disbanding.
Now, I've not said this was a valid justification for the intifada. But in this sort of situation, any justification will be inviting trouble. It's effectively giving ammunition to the terrorists, and that's not advisable.[/B][/quote]
fine ok so the england ireland situation isnt valid and nither was thier justification for going into war. plain and simple they started it weather it was because they didnt like the look of him or because they ahted him dosnt matter they didnt ened to react with war and they did they started it plaina nd simple.
Originally posted by aldo_14
NB: Nota bine (from latin); means an additional point o relevance. Like notes jotted in pencil down the margins of a book.
ok thanks.
Originally posted by aldo_14
No, I don't believe it was a fair justification. But, I believe it was also obvious that it would give one to Palestinains, because they have a different mindset which is more prone to anger against Israel, as a result of the long history.
yeah really if peopel though him visitng there would cause somthing like this you really think that we wouldnt have protested his visit? mhm.
Originally posted by aldo_14
So you agree with me then? I'm only paraphrasing what you said in a number of previous posts;
[q]Originally posted by Splinter
the palestinian terrorists get support from their onw people yes. but do they get the support they need to operate from them? no they are to poor they have squandered any money they did have on trying to blow israel up in the first year. the support these terrorists get is from outside Israel.[/q]
[q]Originally posted by aldo_14
So....all Palestinians are idiots who've went bankrupt trying to blow up Israel?[/q]
[q]all? no. many many many? yeah. but hey i mean that girl the other week that was stopped before the busstop by the soldier and she blew herself up she was the daughter of a wealthy man who ran a public tv station for palestinians and she was the host the kids show every morning... she wasnt poor. [/q][/B]
You said, twice, that many Palestinians are idiots who've bankrupted themselves trying to blow up Israel. Unless you wish to retract that, of course.[/B]
I didnt call them idiots but I did say many of them squandered money yes. but my gripe was taht you kep claiming i said ALL palestinians are idiots and have squandered money nither of which is true.
Originally posted by aldo_14
If you're pointing to Muslim history as a reason for a threat, maybe you should also point out the history of the Crusades themselves?
I was pointing mainly at their religon.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Do they have families to lose if their families get caught in crossfire? Or homes if those are bulldozed? you've basically described why death is more attractive to them than living in the squalor of the territories, which is exactly my point about why you have to tackle this.
if thier homes were bulldozed then they were already dead and thier homes were dozered cause they had died blowing up innocent people. Dude ok tell me you can download torrents PLEASE!!! I need to send you a link for this video it will show you that even people in lebanon syria pakistan iran anywhere who arnt living in squalor belive this is thier highest aspiration and honor! you ahve to understand thier mindset before you can argue about what they are willing to lose gain etc...
Originally posted by aldo_14
[B You say some, I say many. I don't believe extremism is endemic to Palestinians, but a product of the conditions and political situation they live in.[/B]
(Of course, you don't broker the eventual solution RE: Palestine with terrorists, but with the Palestinian civil leaders)[/B][/quote]
I dont belive Extremism is endemic to Palestinians either... I think it endemic to many Muslims in that region.
Originally posted by aldo_14
What about the innocent people trapped within the barrier who have lost their livelihood (through being unable to get to work within Israel), or their land. Why do you think the UN and the ICJ have decided the barrier is illegal?
If the barrier has worked as you say, then the only reason it has done so is by turning the enclosed areas into a virtual(?) prison. Legal? I think not.
again you obviously have not read my post on the wall. it has the same passage of the checkpoints that the territoires now have the only diffrence is now they cant go around the checkpoints now with the wall they will have to go through them thus preventing terrorists from exiting. go educate yourself by reading my post RE the wall then come back. :yes:
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Originally posted by Splinter
Palestinian Civil war would be devastating for them and hurt them more then anything we have or could do atm. yes it just goes to prove that you didnt read the post I made on the wall... I suggest you study it.
See links RE: wall below. If you are worried about a Palestinian civil war, and hence the safety of the civillian community, then surely it's double standards to be so keen on the wall?
i.e.
Ok about the security fence I REALLY REALLY don’t care if its legal illegal I really don’t give a rats tiny ass!, within the context that the illegality of the wall is based upon its effect upon the populace
- see http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwpframe.htm
6. With respect to humanitarian and human rights law, the Court has rightly adjudged that both these régimes are applicable to the occupied territories; that Israel as the occupying Power is under an obligation to respect the rights of the Palestinian population of the occupied territories. Accordingly, the Court has held that the construction of the wall in the occupied territories violates the régime of humanitarian and human rights law. To put an end to such violations, the Court has rightly called for the immediate cessation of the construction of the wall and the payment of reparation for damages caused by the construction.
(summary; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3879057.stm )
Originally posted by Splinter
ok you just keep refusing to aknowledge that I dont think it will work and you do I differ I HAVE PROVEN WITH FACT why I think your plan wont work accept that and move on any reply to this matter which was already resolved the first time I posted the answer will be ignored. finally.
I've already stated why I disagee with you. My previous posts should be enough of a response to indicate why.
Originally posted by Splinter
during ceasefires? maybe... I would have to see though... go look it up post a link.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3173107.stm
This http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3143783.stm is probably a good example of exactly how it broke down.
I'm trying to find another article RE: an incursion into Nablus (I think) which is a more clear cut example.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3149689.stm this may be related, but there's a caveat that it doesn't state if the terrorists had done anything prior to this to break the truce themselves (I'm assuming not, given the content of the story).
I'm also sure there's also a quote from an Israeli government official stating they will go after militant leaders anywhere & everywhere regardless of truces. Unfortunately, I can't find this, so I may be incorrect.
Originally posted by Splinter
fine ok so the england ireland situation isnt valid and nither was thier justification for going into war. plain and simple they started it weather it was because they didnt like the look of him or because they ahted him dosnt matter they didnt ened to react with war and they did they started it plaina nd simple.
yeah really if peopel though him visitng there would cause somthing like this you really think that we wouldnt have protested his visit? mhm.
View on the Palestinian view post-Oslo which explains the significance of Sharons' visit to the Temple on the mount. An Israel perspective is also linked from this article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/998921.stm
Little more on Sharons' histroy and why he would be hated by the Palestinians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/190257.stm
( As defence minister he sent the Israeli army all the way to Beirut, a strike which ended in the expulsion of Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) from Lebanon.
The move stopped the PLO using Lebanon to launch attacks against Israel, but also resulted in the massacre of hundreds of Palestinians by Lebanese Christian militiamen in two Beirut refugee camps under Israeli control.
Mr Sharon was removed from office in 1983 by an Israeli tribunal investigating the 1982 Lebanon invasion, finding him indirectly responsible for the killings. )
Also "Israel apportions blame"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/953507.stm
I think people were well aware of the potential consequences of the visit. Personally, I think Sharon wouldn't be displeased with the boost to his popularity (bbeing a hard man) that would result from renewed strife.
I would also like to re-emphasis that 'they started it' is no excuse for a war. It's playground excuse material.
Originally posted by Splinter
I didnt call them idiots but I did say many of them squandered money yes. but my gripe was taht you kep claiming i said ALL palestinians are idiots and have squandered money nither of which is true.
You said 'many many many', implying a large majority. I gave you the opportunity to rephrase or correct this, by asking 'So....all Palestinians are idiots who've went bankrupt trying to blow up Israel?'.
and you said you agreed that 'many many many Palestinians are idiots who've went bankrupt trying to blow up Israel.'
What i had hoped, that by putting a question for which a positive answer would be deliberately offensive, you'd backtrack and clarify your position and maybe concede that the majority of Palestinians have not bankrupted themselves trying to plant bombs (because this implies you believe they are too stupid to manage their own finances and thus deserve to live in poverty)
Originally posted by Splinter
I was pointing mainly at their religon.
And what exactlywas your point?
Originally posted by Splinter
if thier homes were bulldozed then they were already dead and thier homes were dozered cause they had died blowing up innocent people. Dude ok tell me you can download torrents PLEASE!!! I need to send you a link for this video it will show you that even people in lebanon syria pakistan iran anywhere who arnt living in squalor belive this is thier highest aspiration and honor! you ahve to understand thier mindset before you can argue about what they are willing to lose gain etc...
I'm not interested in the people outside Palestine/the territories when referring to Palestinians. It's worth noting that the indoctrination of these people to hate Jews/Israel/Zionism is often based upon using Palestine as an excuse/reason to hate.
(example)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3620836.stm
Soldiers then demolished two of the buildings which the army said had been used to fire mortars, rockets and anti-tank missiles at Israeli forces and the nearby Jewish settlements of Gush Katif and Neve Dekalim.
Helicopters fired missiles into the camp, wounding six Palestinians.
Palestinians and human rights groups criticise as collective punishment the Israeli tactic of demolishing houses which it says are used to launch militant attacks.
i.e. punishing the innocent people who are unfortunate enough to have to live where they do.
I believe this is excessive and breeds resentment, leading new recruits for terrorists.
Originally posted by Splinter
I dont belive Extremism is endemic to Palestinians either... I think it endemic to many Muslims in that region.
I disagree and believe that is a highly erroneous statement with no evidence or proof in either history or the present. You are mistaking a vocal minority for a majority,
Originally posted by Splinter
again you obviously have not read my post on the wall. it has the same passage of the checkpoints that the territoires now have the only diffrence is now they cant go around the checkpoints now with the wall they will have to go through them thus preventing terrorists from exiting. go educate yourself by reading my post RE the wall then come back. :yes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3111159.stm
I presume you're aware of the Israeli / pro-barrier argument, so i'll show the 'anti' side (some key points in red)
What are the main objections to the plan?
Israel's critics say the plan epitomises everything that is wrong with Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and its approach to making peace with its Arab neighbours.
Palestinian land is confiscated to build the barrier; hundreds of Palestinian farmers and traders are cut off from their land and means of economic survival. Most significantly, it creates "facts on the ground" and imposes unilateral solutions which preclude negotiated agreements in the future.
The impact of the plan has been felt most acutely in Qalqilya itself, once known as the West Bank's "fruit basket", which lies within a tight loop in the wall. It is cut off on three sides - from the farms which supply its markets and the region's second-largest water sources. Access to the 40,000-inhabitant town will pass through a single Israeli checkpoint.
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you guys are grinding water here really..
the "wall" or whatever new political propaganda word you use to compare it to berlin's, is illegial by the UN, but they openly support terrorists like the Hamas.
so by UN laws, terrorisem is legal and defences against terrorisem are illegial. *sigh*
and how can you call killing terrorists before they blow up, ATTACKING the palestinian people.. thats just sad.