Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Starman01 on November 03, 2004, 01:38:30 pm
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Hello folks,
I posted this already at sectorgame (because I couldn't wait to show it to the public), so a few people might know this already :)
While playing freespace and encountering the sentry guns, I always thought "WTF..." when seeing those sentryguns.. They were IMO totally useless and unbalanced. Let me show you my thoughts here :
Normal gunbases in Freespace are extremly weak und under-armed. They are wiped out instantly and had no real defense (good weapons, armor or even shields, this also includes the 4-gunned shivan one (forgot it's name right now)
Why should a goverment invest money in such useless installations (you know how expensive even small military stuff is already nowadays), so I thought these things should be changed to something more logical and effective, but shouldn't be to overpowered too..
And this "overpowered" brings me to the second point I don't like about freespace's sentryguns, the Mjolnir RBC. We all see it's incredible fire-power, and it's rather tiny hull. If that wouldn't be bad enough, it has also rotating parts, which certainly use up some room for the mechanical equipment. So I must really ask, where should this thing house a power-plant strong enough to power such a beam. (but don't take my opinion here to start another scientific discussion, at least it is just MY opinion) :)
Now, I think those beams can be only carried and powered by capital ships and their reactor cores. Because of this, at least in "my" freespace-world I completly ignore anti-cap-, and even anti-fighter beams on sentry guns (maybe I will make an ancient one with two AA-Beams, but less other weaponry, we will see about that).
So, this is enough about my thoughts into the following models, I just wanted to explain myself. Now I want to show them to the public to get some feedback (but I hope the critic will not be too hard, because I like those things like they are now :) )
One more thing, I'm not sure if the names are already used, so they might be subject to change. Also, I think the Shortage "SG" doesn't fit to them anymore, rather make it "ASG = Advanced Sentry Gun" or "GB = Gunbase".
When I write about laser-turrets, I also think about giving them some "terran-turret"-variants (fighter lasers would be to weak for these installations), and the vasudan pulse laser should be "small bolt"-variant of the vasudan turret, using the swarm flag to fire two bolts at once (I like that feature :) ) Besides their armament, they are all shielded, which gives them enough offensive and defensive-capabilities. Note that the armament is a little race-specific, but I also tried to balance them out between each other in their summary firepower.
If you wonder about their size, I made this because of the thoughts mentioned above. If there are that many turrets to supply, you will need room for power-plants and other technical stuff.
There is a lot of work for me at WC-Saga, but as soon as I will find the time, I will finish the models with debris and LOD and will then release them for public use. Also I created some minor modified vasudan and shivan-maps for this models, which can be better used for texture-tilling.
1) The Terran Variant (2500 Polygons) (Recycled version of my very first working FS2-Model)
(http://www.scifi-3d.de/wcsaga/Starman/gunstar.jpg)
2) The Vasudan-One (my personal favorite, even if it was the hardest to build an texture). (also 2500 Polygons)
(http://www.scifi-3d.de/wcsaga/Starman/bastet.jpg)
3) Finally, the shivan one (maybe some Shivan-Megafunk-turrets on the centerpods ? ) (3500 Polygons)
(http://www.scifi-3d.de/wcsaga/Starman/cerberus.jpg)
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Yay Starman. Though I'd suggest retexing the Terran one it looks too WCish with all the textures from us.[BTW Check the internal I need something]
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Correct about the first one, but I'm also your opinion that the visual hullplates are rather unrealistic (but it looks cool on vasudan and shivan), so I tried some of our textures. :)
About the internal : I'm coming, I'm coming, old man is no train" :D
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awesome. I love the vasudan's quad flak turrets. One suggestion though, on the inside faces of the turret (the part where it would rotate around) use something other than the default hull plates. Perhaps put a border on one of the more "greebled" textures, or just use one of the more interesting texies.
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The Vasudan one is A1-supar :yes:
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Vasudan gun platform is best:yes:
Toorets on all of platforms look very good
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Hm, I expected some more feedback from you guys outthere on HLP :confused:
Is anyone interested at all in those models ? If not, I can save me a lot of work making debris and lods for them, and release them in my own campaign when it comes out (2010 or so) :p
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Already said I liked them on SectorGame.
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Finally some kickass sentry guns!
Hey Starman,
If ok with you I might like to browse my "little" texture library and screw around till I find one I think would jazz up the main hull a bit (like a paneled bright metal sheen, chromish maybe?) I think the dull brushed grey look takes away from it.?
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Damn, how did I miss this? Great work, specially on the Vasudan one - and welcome to the highlights!
:)
The Terran one could use a bit more work, though. And the Vasudan one, though it looks great now, would look even better with some "ribbing" on the flat portions on the wings.
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[color=66ff00]Nice one but there's only one spacefaring vessel you can call a Gunstar. ;)
Vasudan one kicks neck. :yes:
[/color]
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Congrats on your highlight, Starman.:yes:
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Wow, this is nearly too much honor, but thanks a lot :D
About the terran-textures, I think I agree with you guys that it could use some other textures. Any suggestions is welcome (my map-libary is more for WC-Models, which the terran-one proves).
About the ribbing on the vasudan, I'm not fully sure I translate this right for myself. Do you mean, I should add more structures where now the red-technical texture is set ? (After all, this model
was a real pain, I'm not sure how many further booleans Truespace will allow me on this model).
About the names, they are subject to change of course, escpecialy the "gunstar" ;). Though "ammut" fits right good, this is supposed to be an egypthic hybrid-goddess between a scorpion and something else, I do not remember very clear right now (I surfed some egyptic-tales-website for this). Same goes for the Erebos. It stands for "darkness", but I don't like the sound of this name, does not sound evil enough.
Again, suggestions are welcome.
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How about Gunslinger (Meg has a point!)
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Nice stuff :yes:... the shivan sentry shape reminds me of something... not sure what... weird...
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Overall: Hell, yeah! :yes:
(Hopefully) Constructive Criticism:
Terran: I'd think that less bright textures would be more logical - perhaps drop the caution wasp-striped textures for something resembling exposed machinery?
Another point - consider the placement of the turrets on the 4 arms. Placing them further out along the arms would seem to make more sense to me. Having the arms stick out beyond the turrets' position just seems to be offering a larger target.
Also: Are you on ICQ/MSN/whatever? I've a few more ideas you may want to make into a seperate model as opposed to incorporating them into a current one. :)
Vasudan: I agree with Anaz... the inside faces of the "mandibles" at the end of each arm - the parts enveloping the turrets themselves - should have a different, machine-like texture. Same with the "inner" faces of each turret - i.e. the "slots" that each barrel is situated it. And perhaps use a different glow texture for the inner hollow section... something green, perhaps?
Additionally, the largish central pods that have the flak cannons mounted on them don't seem to be very Vasudanish to me. I think that Vasudan design tends more towards the flowing organic (which the main body of the platform demonstrates quite well). Perhaps instead of "pods", you could just bring the central portion of the platform up (and down) into a severe - but smoothly transitioned - bulge. Add some vertical ribs from the bulge's "north pole" down to the arms, or something like that to supply more detail, and you'd have a winner. :)
Shivan: Kinda hard to make out the geometry, but the one thing I do see is the arms. Particularly, the part where they split in 2 and then rejoin. A cross-section of those arms would be square - top, bottom, inner side, outward side. But look at the Shivan Comm Node - all it's "arms" are (IIRC) triangular - or perhaps diamond-shaped. The flat-sided arms look too Terran IMHO.
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Not to be a pessimist, the turrets look great and all, but do those turrets actually work as they are intended? Multipart turrets, in my experience, are very picky and require a lot of assumptions to be true to behave as you would expect them to. Of those, barrels rotating on an axis not directly above or below the turret's center of rotation (which your model seems to cover just fine) and all fireing point normals being both radially outward from the barrel's rotation axis and pure y (vertical), meaning that the only truely supported configuration would be a row of barrels in line like on all the "normal" multiparts. While they will still work if either of these conditions is violated, they will either look very strange when rotating or not track properly. Of course it's been a while since I actually tried other configurations, so I could be mistaken here.
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Heh, if there's one person who knows how multipart turrets have to be done it's Starman, he converted over 20+ capships for WCSaga already and all of them feature multi-part turrets exclusively. The only thing with the turrets is probably that they only fire from one barrel, but that's a code thing and shows why the turret code sucks so hard that black holes can't escape it.
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Ok, this are some serious points I have to think about.
1) The turrets : The entire models can be converted, so can the turrets, I already checked that. Ignore the turret-position in the renders, for the real model I have to point them all straight up and in one direction, that is sure, otherwise rotation will be screwed up.
The shivan-one and the flak-turret can become a problem though, because the turret-arms are not alligned along the y, but the x-axis (or the same way around, depends how you set the axis in truespace). But I don't see any problems with them, they should work fine.
What definitly works is the missile-turret, we already have one of that kind in WC-SAGA, and it rotates exactly on it's mounting point.
The terran-base will get an overwork (as I said, it is my very first model I made :) ) The turrets are placed more inside because of the models geometry (which is a little bad visible due to the texture), and more on the outside the podests have not enough space.
Vasudan : I was also thinking about a special texture for the mantible-inside, but I had nothing at hand, which I thought it would fit in. Suggestions ?
But I would rather keep the red-texture, If I choose a green one, there is no big difference to the hull anymore (and I tried blue and yellow, and it sucked (btw, I'm colourblind (red+green), no kidding :) )
I also think about something for the inside of the laserturret, maybe just a dark texture.
I can't see the picture before my inner eye, what you guys mean about the structure under the flak-turrets. I know this one is a little to blocky and symetric, but I had no other idea at hand.
What I had in mind was, since there are 6 faces combining in the center, I merged a six-sided-object in the center. When I now glue a rather round part on it, there will be some place in the model where a hard-break will be visible.
Shivan : I will try changing the arms and give them a shaper edge on the in- and outside. ( But I will keep the two-split arms). About the geometry, it may be a little hard visible, but the centerpart has a reactor-like structure, with 8 big armor-plates on the mainhull covering the inside.
(Making shield-meshes for these bases will be hard though). I will
try to improve the models (but give me some more insight), but you must give me some time, cause I'm hard at work :)
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(edit) If you have any suggestions, just post 'em here or mail them to me at [email protected] ([email protected])
Getting me on ICQ is not easy at all, and I have no other chat-progs. :)
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Oh I'm not saying it won't work; the turrets will still track and fire well enough. But from building a similar turret to your missile launcher in a model of mine some time ago, the barrels do a small bobble when they are trying to track, and don't actually point at their target when they lock on. Your missile launcher (very cool launcher, by the way) may have its tubes too close together to notice the bobble, and it may not even happen all of the time. They still look and fire in the right general direction, it's just another odd behavior that comes out when you break the very specific rules of turret behavior.
That said, I actually think WC had similar turret restrictions, (except that they didn't have to be placed with normals strictly up or down), because every turret I can remember seeing on a ship in that series comformed to the horizontal row rule.
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Actually WC3 whic came out in '94 supports multipart turrets on any angle, the barrels look in the direction while firing, bolts come from both barrels. Cheers up for the mighty Freespace turret code!:sigh:
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Exactly what I said Lynx, but as I also said I can't think of a single instance where the turrets in any WC game have their barrels configured like this:
_X_
_X_
as opposed to this
_XX_
That is what I'm cautioning Starman about the Vasudan and Shivan turrets. While the vertical alignment is a cool idea in theory, in general it makes a different set of assumptions than the turret movement code allows.
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Originally posted by Getter Robo G
How about Gunslinger (Meg has a point!)
[color=66ff00]...and also a slight bias, note my avatar. :lol:
[/color]
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It matters jack**** if the barrels are vertical.
The two barrels are still one entitiy and still revolve around the same axis. Youe could try it yourself. Load some ship into modelview and manipulate a turret's firing points that way. There's no difference. It wouldn't even be noticeable since due to the turret code it fires from only one barrel all the time anyways.
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Lynx is correct, it is one object, and it will rotate normally. There should be no problems at all.
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That's exactly my thinking what Lynx said.. I have to try them however, to be completly sure. But there is another thing. When these are more or less rapid-fire-turrets, and since freespace can fire only single bolts, so I would have no problem at all in creating only one single firing-point in the pof-data. It will be not really noticable to a player (and isn't now too) which barrel is actually firing.
Stratcomm has a point though, but I think there will be no problem (and as I said, our missile-launcher which looks a little different (bad) is build the same way, and works perfectly).
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has'nt the scp sorted that single shot code thing yet?
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No. The turret code is an utter nightmare.
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turrets will fire from multable points if they have the same weapon
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Since when? :wtf: They don't for me.
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u should prolly make shinemaps/glowmaps for terran/shivan respectively.
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Here's an idea for the rapid pulse effect. Use 2 fire-points and create a specific turret weapon with a swarm factor of 6 or 8. Depending on what the fire rate of the main weapon is, it should send out a near continuous stream of fire, alternating between the 2 points.
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Dude, those freaking own. Move over, Belial. :yes:
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I would sugest placing the quad flak in the terran sentry, and the missile pods in the vasudan, since quad flaks are a terran thing more than a vasudan thing.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
turrets will fire from multable points if they have the same weapon
Can we get confirmation on this? I have some turrets in dire need of such code changes.
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I think this is maybe a little bad visible, depends on the quality
of the effect-file.
For example, our Laserturret-effect is always a little deeper than
the view-point of the turret-barrels, but I think the effect-file is not
very high quality, so it is subject to change though
Could be really good visible, if you use a high swarm-faktor, it is
worth a try, but I'm also pretty sure that bobboau is right on this.
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Very cool stuff, Starman! Hope you get these working properly! :yes:
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Originally posted by Bobboau
turrets will fire from multable points if they have the same weapon
Just tried it out. It works. Now our capships are twice as deadly.:cool:
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Here's an idea for the rapid pulse effect. Use 2 fire-points and create a specific turret weapon with a swarm factor of 6 or 8. Depending on what the fire rate of the main weapon is, it should send out a near continuous stream of fire, alternating between the 2 points.
How do you propose to do a swarm factor? If you do it with the missile swarm flag it will be very inaccurate. But i think the Babalon project is making code to allow this type of weapon.
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Originally posted by boewolf
How do you propose to do a swarm factor? If you do it with the missile swarm flag it will be very inaccurate. But i think the Babalon project is making code to allow this type of weapon.
I copied this weapon entry out of one my mod tables:
$Name: TT-DoubleHuge
$Model File: none
@Laser Bitmap: laserglow03
@Laser Glow: 2_laserglow03
@Laser Color: 20, 150, 20
@Laser Color2: 2, 15, 2
@Laser Length: 20.0
@Laser Head Radius: 6.40
@Laser Tail Radius: 2.60
$Mass: 0.4
$Velocity: 175.0
$Fire Wait: 3.0
$Damage: 100
$Armor Factor: 1.25
$Shield Factor: 0.5
$Subsystem Factor: 0.75
$Lifetime: 12.0
$Energy Consumed: 0.30
$Cargo Size: 0.0
$Homing: NO
$Swarm: 2
$LaunchSnd: 111
$ImpactSnd: 85
$Flags: ("Big Ship" "Huge" )
$Icon: icongun03
$Anim: LoadGun02
$Impact Explosion: none
I've highlighted where the swarm entry goes.
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Yeah, try it, this is really cool gun-effect
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I want it. As soon as I can get ahold of a weapon pack I made some months back, I believe I can work some magic with the terran one.
Good work, and i'll be in touch.
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Man, i really wish these would have more pollys and take advantage of the scp advancements...
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Originally posted by Krackers87
Man, i really wish these would have more pollys and take advantage of the scp advancements...
Huh ? Can you be more presisive ?
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presisive ?
That isn't English. Normally I wouldn't complain, but I don't have a clue what you meant.
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I think he meant "precise" and since the v is next to the c, he probably didn't read over what he just wrote.
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Sorry, that was bad translation, i was meaning precise. (english isn't my native language). I don't really understand what Kracker is complaining about, so I asked for more information :)
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
Here's an idea for the rapid pulse effect. Use 2 fire-points and create a specific turret weapon with a swarm factor of 6 or 8. Depending on what the fire rate of the main weapon is, it should send out a near continuous stream of fire, alternating between the 2 points.
I've done that dozens of times. Thing is, barrels will fie alternately (if you have two), then they switch around.
Example:
2 Barrelled turret, with a 'Swarm 4' weapon, 5 sec firewait.
Fires like this:
1..2..1..2...........2..1..2..1...........1..2..1..2.... etc.
Of course, If Bobboau is correct, then things are looking up, and this rather crude method is out of date. Which Version are you refering to Bob?
BTW, those are some cool gun platforms!
Terran:
The Red bits and the Yellow markings don't really work. Also switch the colours on the Pulse turrets bodys (pale outside and dark inside)
Vasudan:
Pretty good, may need a little more smoothing.
Shivan:
It's a Giant Belial!;) Apart from the square sided arms, it's pretty good.
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Originally posted by Raptor
I've done that dozens of times. Thing is, barrels will fie alternately (if you have two), then they switch around.
Example:
2 Barrelled turret, with a 'Swarm 4' weapon, 5 sec firewait.
Fires like this:
1..2..1..2...........2..1..2..1...........1..2..1..2.... etc.
How about a swarm of 8 with a firewait of 2 or 3?
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That's an energy-machine-gun like thingie. Did this one in accident.
Since Freespace is a space-fighter-thing, you will be dead
when approaching a ship armed with that. But it looks funny :)
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What i was complaining about was the fact that those guns, and 98% of mods i've seen, are rather low poly, (600 or so) when with HT&L and all the other advancements being made with SCP they could look so much better if the time was taken to do Glow/Spec maps and To make the models more detailed (2500 polys)
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@Starman
Have you pics of that energie-space-mg-thing firing?
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Originally posted by Krackers87
What i was complaining about was the fact that those guns, and 98% of mods i've seen, are rather low poly, (600 or so) when with HT&L and all the other advancements being made with SCP they could look so much better if the time was taken to do Glow/Spec maps and To make the models more detailed (2500 polys)
No offend, but wake up. What good shall those Ultrahigh-Poly models be ? When I look so around in the forums, who has a computer strong enough to run a mission with 10 or 15 fighters with 8K Polies, or two of those highpoly-fenris's? All of those models are extrem cool, but more or less useless. (I remember the cool Discovery-Model (from the 2001-Movie) Gevatter Lars once made. It had nearly 100K polies. It was awesome to look at,
but beside being used for renders (which take ages) it is useless.
I bought a new computer myself these days, and picked the best
stuff available, and paid nearly 1300,- € for it. Which pupil or student out there can afford this ? And seriously, why should someone use highpoly-models when he then can play only in 640x480 resolution, because his computer goes in his knees? If you want to have cool graphic, the first thing to change is the resolution.
Take the WC-Saga for example. Our missions containing dozend of fighters, and big fleets fighting together, everything glow and spec-mapped, and with TGA-Backgrounds. Now guess how good the performance is ??
Seriously, HighPoly are really good looking, but at least today they are more or less useless for game-design. That's my opinion, now you guys can stone me.
@Lars : No, but I can create you a table-entry in a matter of seconds (somehow it seems hard to get screenshots of laserbolts).
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
How about a swarm of 8 with a firewait of 2 or 3?
Not sure, but I'd expect you would have overlap, two shots in the same place at the same time (ouch!)
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It'd probably take some testing and tweaking to get the right combination of swarm factor and firewait to get it to look right.
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Is it possible to change the time-delay between the swarm-bolts ?
(I don't mean the fire-wait between two shots, which can already
be set in the table)
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As a small suggestion to your excellent work, perhaps you should add engine modules? Strategically, sentries aren't very useful because they can't move; even extremely slow firebases could relocate between attacks to throw off bombers. Stationary targets are far too easy to destroy, particularly when they're so large. Think about it economically; small turrets aren't very useful but dirt cheap, turrets much larger than fighters will cost a shivan-load and be destroyed with only slightly more difficulty, since they can't maneuver like fighters or have huge hp like capships.
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Well in that case it might as well be an unmanned cruiser, but that's not what he's after. I would suggest merely putting dockpoints on it to allow for combat deployment and retrieval.
Later!
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Thats a brilliant idea! Hopefully mission scripters will use that sort of thing :)
Has any thought been put in to what deploys them? The normal SGs are deployed by anything cruiser and up, but these are much larger. It would almost be restrictd to carriers to deploy any large number of them... unless they're all deployed by transports through subspace?
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maybe they could be towed.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
maybe they could be towed.
My thoughts exactly. If this was in FS2 era, I suggest the following tow configurations:
Terran: Argo
Vasudan: Argo (since Vasudans have been known to use them), Satis, Bes
Shivan: Dis
If they're for FS1 era:
Terran: Chronos, forward bridge docking port
Vasudan: Satis
Shivan: Asmodeus, forward ventral dockpoint
The dockpoints and paths on these platforms are gonna need to be quite precise to make sure the ships can get into position properly.
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Originally posted by Starman01
All that stuff
I dunno what's with your setup, but my PC (see siggy for details) can run with the big dogs. I have my settings on highest standard res (1024x768x32) All of the options enabled (except pcx32, which is useless) and I get framerates of ~ 45 at the lowest, and 120 at it's cap. And I don't have a 'super machine' I'm a student, on a very limited income. This rig only cost me ~$5-600 and it runs perfectly.
So your hipoly phobia is limited to you. If your game is stammering because of two Fenri, then I think there may be a bottleneck somewhere that needs to be looked at.
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Originally posted by Starman01
No offend, but wake up. What good shall those Ultrahigh-Poly models be ? When I look so around in the forums, who has a computer strong enough to run a mission with 10 or 15 fighters with 8K Polies, or two of those highpoly-fenris's? All of those models are extrem cool, but more or less useless. (I remember the cool Discovery-Model (from the 2001-Movie) Gevatter Lars once made. It had nearly 100K polies. It was awesome to look at,
but beside being used for renders (which take ages) it is useless.
I bought a new computer myself these days, and picked the best
stuff available, and paid nearly 1300,- € for it. Which pupil or student out there can afford this ? And seriously, why should someone use highpoly-models when he then can play only in 640x480 resolution, because his computer goes in his knees? If you want to have cool graphic, the first thing to change is the resolution.
Take the WC-Saga for example. Our missions containing dozend of fighters, and big fleets fighting together, everything glow and spec-mapped, and with TGA-Backgrounds. Now guess how good the performance is ??
Seriously, HighPoly are really good looking, but at least today they are more or less useless for game-design. That's my opinion, now you guys can stone me.
@Lars : No, but I can create you a table-entry in a matter of seconds (somehow it seems hard to get screenshots of laserbolts).
.....HTL makes it so that a ship with say 2500 polys, causes no more slowdown than a ship of 600 polys in vanila; maybe you should keep more track of the advancements in the scp before criticising my statement. And theres a big difference between 2,500 polys and 100,000 polys.
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Originally posted by Krackers87
.....HTL makes it so that a ship with say 2500 polys, causes no more slowdown than a ship of 600 polys in vanila; maybe you should keep more track of the advancements in the scp before criticising my statement. And theres a big difference between 2,500 polys and 100,000 polys.
I have to agree with Krackers87 on this one.
The biggest misunderstanding about HTL models is the source of their resource drain:
Their polys are fine - I used to have several HTL Fenris on screen.
The true problems began when a lot of textures were assigned to them.
The real killer of performance in HTL is the number and size of the textures - some big textures are beareable. Several small textures are really bad - and several high-res textures on a single model are the worst.
What determines wheter a model is well optimized or not depends on how well it was mapped. The first screen is the number of textures - each new texture means another pass when rendering.
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So why not just take every HTL model mapped with multiple textures and UV Map them on there?
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It's possible. Given enough time, I could probably bake the Leviathan, and in doing so, create the base, spec, and glow maps from the current, just, I'm not sure wether or not alpha channels get baked.
Nor do I know if I can get the baking process to not darken, or overly lighten any part of the ship because of Max's funny lighting techniques...
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Use Lithium.
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Use Lithium.
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Isn't UV Mapping it a seperate process from baking the textures?
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The way I understand it baking gives you one texture and a model with a UV Map that fits that single texture.
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More or less, yes. But Max creates maps lit by the current scene rather than just combining the maps. It's nearly impossible to make the textures from a Max texture bake to come out looking the same as they would before being processed.
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Originally posted by Starman01
And this "overpowered" brings me to the second point I don't like about freespace's sentryguns, the Mjolnir RBC. We all see it's incredible fire-power, and it's rather tiny hull. If that wouldn't be bad enough, it has also rotating parts, which certainly use up some room for the mechanical equipment. So I must really ask, where should this thing house a power-plant strong enough to power such a beam. (but don't take my opinion here to start another scientific discussion, at least it is just MY opinion) :)
i'm preety sure the rotating parts are part of the beam generation assembelly, not just decoration.
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Additionally, the Mjolnir is anything but tiny. The hull is a freaking 108m long!
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I wonder what happened to that second beam weapon and the 3 misslile banks though, owell..
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Originally posted by FireCrack
I wonder what happened to that second beam weapon and the 3 misslile banks though, owell..
*ahem* (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,28324.0.html) :p
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Originally posted by Sandwich
*ahem* (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,28324.0.html) :p
are you just pointing me to the thread in general or to that specific post? i'm confused :confused: :confused:
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Oops... I meant to remove the goto=lastpost thingy. That thread in general.