Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Knight Templar on November 04, 2004, 06:59:31 pm
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[This ain't a political discussion thread as much as it is a polling. So don't delete it please, and don't ****ing chastise people's opinions either, just answer the question]
Okay, I already know the answer from most of you, but here's the deal.
I'm writing an article in the school newspaper about people who live outside the US and their opinions on us, be it out foreign policy, government, people, etc. So, being that I frequent here a lot, I figure I'd ask you guys instead of being vague and uninformative, telling our students that people from sandy countries want to kill us and people from cold places think we are lazy, although I'm sure it'd be news to a few of them.
So, post away. Try to make it civil /quotable too, please. That way I can include you.
Also, if you could include a real-life name of some sort, I don't care if it's the one that you use or not, I just don't want to it seem like I asked people on gaming and pr0n forums for their opinion on the US for something that is supposed to be semi-professional. Thanks.
(To those who saw this on NW or SG, I figured I could get a larger polling here too.)
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Good luck.
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Good luck, man. I'd help, but I live in States, and Don't have much of an opinion other than 'Sucks.'
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I'm from somewhere cold, and I think Americans are lazy.
Just use what I posted on NW (as for a name, an actual one) feel free to use...Dan...
...wow, that was even less imaginative than I had anticipated.
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I think most of the 'debaters' have actually had their say, so you may get some interesting variations here ;)
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Indeed.
Also, did I mention I need this witihn the next, say, five hours?
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Ask Tin can. He may not know he's part of the US and he's opinionated anyway. :p
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I dont think I'd want to comment. :)
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As I'm a resident of NYS, that means you don't need my input.
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Okay guys, really, leave your foreign opinion or shut up.
Please.
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well people here are very cynnical of america, you americans seem uninformed of other parts of the world and think you can impose your views on everyone else, and that whole calling yourselves the leader of the free world thing is really annoying as the rest of the world does not follow america lead. also my name is Mr Smith ;7
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Well, dont know much of what other people think, but personally, I'd say that Americans are acting a bit too....'spoilt' when it comes to international relations. The general attitude I get from tourists who visited India is 'how horrible' and 'how tragic' when it comes to the state of affairs, which I find surprising. This is especially since they keep complaining of how things are horrible back home and then make it such that we're supposed to take it as being more important than whatever happens here.
It's this ignorance and general 'holier-than-thou' attitude that annoys me the most, especially when they flaunt it right into your face.
My name is Mr. Singh.
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Here's what hopefully is my short response.
I live in Canada. I live 1 hour from the border...as do many Canadians. So American's are a very close next door neighbor and we pay as much attention to what goes on in your country as we do in what goes on in our country.
I've visited the US many times...its a good country, lots to explore, lots to see, but I don't think I'd want to ever live there.
The number of run down houses, areas, and even entire cities is something that I wasn't prepared for as a tourist not always being on the beaten track. Some things don't seem to get the care down there that they tend to get a bit more of up here. Some of the social and education policies down there don't really appeal to me...Canadian healthcare may be the biggest issue facing our country but I think most Canadians believe in having a publically funded system. Same goes for subsidized universities and educational institutions...the tuition Americans pay for higher-education is astronomical and rediculous. And frankly, Americans in general, seem way too uptight about alchohaul and sexuality in entertainment and not worried enough about rediculous levels of violence. I guess it boils down to lobby groups.
Anyways...the United States and Americans...generally good neighbors to Canada...we don't always get along but thats alright and I think we probably wouldn't have it any other way.
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We have subsidized Universities?
Tell that to my $6000 student loan, or to the $40,000 student loan I'll probably have next year.
And I don't think Ice should count, Canucks are basically like Americans only more polite and attracted to hockey. ;) ;)
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Not very high, put it that way. You'd be surprised how often the topic of America comes up around here, and how rarely the discussion is complimentary.
In short, your country is generally seen as arrogant, overbearing, inward looking to the point of isolationist and, to be entirely honest, none too clever. I mean, I've associated with many americans, both online and in person (especially over the last year) and I've found them largely to be reasonably sensible, normal people. But I'm also fully aware that the people I normally associate with are not entirely representative of the country. These are people who care enough that the rest of the world exists to want to see other parts of it, and I know that for every reasonable, intelligent American I meet there are a dozen gun toting, flag waving, half educated born again fundies waiting in the wings.
Oh, and electing Bush didn't help much either.
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I hope I'm one of the sensible ones... *wants to move to Australia*
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My opinion doesn't count since I live in the US.
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Originally posted by Raa
Ask Tin can. He may not know he's part of the US and he's opinionated anyway. :p
Ass hole....
And you can quote me on that...
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Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Ass hole....
And you can quote me on that...
Baby Bush cries when people swear...
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It's a shame, the Bush re-election just proves to the world what a lot of them think, that Americans are homophobic, right wing, bible thumping, war mongering morons. You have your bible belt to thank for that one.
Currently I think there are a lot of people outside of the US that have a hell of a lot of sympathy for the people that didn't vote for Bush. I know I do.
On a personal level, I have absolutely no problem with American PEOPLE (besides your average christian fundamentalist), however I and a lot of people like me despise your administration and I personally hate what they have done to people's opinions of Americans worldwide.
Oh yeah, if you want to quote any of this then my name is Daniel and I'm from the UK.
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No beef with the american people, it's american society that I want to *****slaps. I mean, rampant disinformation anyone ? Last I heard, at least 50% of the population still believed there was link between 9/11 and Iraq, when it has been repeatedly proved that there wasn't, and that a link in general between al-quaeda and iraq was more than grasping at straw.
Plus the fact that people approve of the privatisation of health care and retirement still make no sense for me. All it would take is another financial fall, and all your social advantage would be down the drain. I prefer having assurance that I will have these advantages, thank you. I've been to China, when health care is non-existant for most, due to the fact that they can't pay for it, and believe me, this isn't pretty. And it's the road that America is currently taking, so I prefer to warn you in advance.
And lastly, I'm still afraid of a president, in a seculiar nation, who doesn't really understand separation of faith with decision-making.
Sorry for not giving a name, but if someone of my family still have to travel to USA, I'd like for them not to be arrested and interrogated at the airport :p
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Genryu, Iraq was a much a part of the larger "War on Terror" campaign.
Did they **** up trying to explain why we went in? Yes.
Was it wrong? HEEEEEEEELLLLLL NO!
Also, I would be afraid of a leader who didn't admit that he prays regularly. And it's not a separation of faith from decision making, it's a separation of government from favoring one religion over another, and that's all it is.
Explain to me exactly how you can make a decision without faith anyway? Any decision requires faith that it will turn out okay, either by chance or divine influence.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Genryu, Iraq was a much a part of the larger "War on Terror" campaign.
Did they **** up trying to explain why we went in? Yes.
Was it wrong? HEEEEEEEELLLLLL NO!
Also, I would be afraid of a leader who didn't admit that he prays regularly. And it's not a separation of faith from decision making, it's a separation of government from favoring one religion over another, and that's all it is.
Explain to me exactly how you can make a decision without faith anyway? Any decision requires faith that it will turn out okay, either by chance or divine influence.
'War on Terror'...what a load of bollocks that is.
A decision based on the cold hard evidence is always more reliable than one based upon faith. And, of course, a decision based upon religious faith is very likely to conflict with other religions / aetheism in a discriminatory way - if a decision based on this sort of faith is best, then surely Iran or the Taliban are the model you want the US to follow?
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Well I find that in general I havn't got a problem with americans. Yes your government is arrogant, thinking its better than everyone else. I get the impression that everyone else has to conform to your government wishes or else. Maybe because the american people are too patriotic at times and the government uses that to their advantage to get you (americans) on their side no matter what the consequences are. If you arn't with us then you are against us sort of attitude. Well that is my general impression I get while the general down to earth american is ok its the government polices that need to be cleaned up.
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My personal opinion of american is that they are fine as people, byt they are starting to lack openness and curiosity in a worrysome way, like they satiated their thirst for knowledge once for all...
This makes also them pretty vulnerable to disinformation, in a way that hiding the bad messenger has been set as a standard.
You really need to study more history, geography and foreign culture at school ;-)
You can quote me as Marco from Sardinia.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Genryu, Iraq was a much a part of the larger "War on Terror" campaign.
Did they **** up trying to explain why we went in? Yes.
Was it wrong? HEEEEEEEELLLLLL NO!
Excuuuuuse me, but Iraq was one of the only secular, not-terrorist-backing regime in the middle east. It was a dictature, people were dying, on that I agree. But it had nothing on the war on terror as seen by americans. Yes, they sent money to the family of palestinians blowing themselves up, but Saudi Arabia was FUNDING them, and I don't see America goign there to blow things up. In short, what many people reproach to the bush administration is rampant hypocrisy in their reason for going to war.
Also, I would be afraid of a leader who didn't admit that he prays regularly. And it's not a separation of faith from decision making, it's a separation of government from favoring one religion over another, and that's all it is.
And why would an a leader not praying would be a bad thing ? I mean, from all western leader, the majority of them doesn't pray, goes to church, etc... and I don't think you can call all of them bad leaders.
See aldo for the rest of what I think.
Explain to me exactly how you can make a decision without faith anyway? Any decision requires faith that it will turn out okay, either by chance or divine influence.
Or you can analyse the fact, think about how your action will influence the problem, and go from here. :p
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the reasons for invading iraq were false and the war was for oil but at least it got rid of saddam, if bush really wanted to stop this terrorism he would have attacked the scource of it money Saudi Arabia, but bush is too buddy buddy with them to do that.
Sign the pettition now NUKE Saudi Arabia :)
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Every argument ends with 'lets nuke someone'
Well, I've had enough!!
The next person to say 'nuke' will get err... nuked...
OK, I am going to rethink this....
Anyway, the USA is like fat Godzilla, just lurching around mindlessly breaking stuff.
Lovely people mind you, just don't invite them for tea....
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Another Irish view.
First I just gotta say to Liberator.
Making decisions without a religious influence? Faith and religion have probably been the number one cause of most war, murder, proscecution, genocide, and political and social inequality in human history.
I've been to America, New York, working for a summer (on the J1 visa; its a big Irish college tradition, but no more evidently with the ludicrously overbearing security measures) and I have no problem with the people. Sure they can be loud, obnoxious, ignorant, selfish and stupid. Like most people but unfortunately, maybe because America's power only makes it seem so, they seem to be all these things abit more than most others. But then Ive met kind, generous, funny, friendly, and well informed americans as well. And this was only in four cities, main NY.
Bush on the other hand is officially a reformed addict, to which substance is open to debate, and now a religious evangelical. THIS IS A MAN WHO NEEDS SOMETHING MORE THAN HIMSELF TO HOLD ON TO. Its the greatest sign of weakness. Theres nothing wrong with religion, it guides decisions and gives us generally a good moral message. But it cannot be applied as a blanket ace card. Saying 'God bless America' doesnt give Bush moral authority or validation on any of his actions. Its exactly the same as Bin Laden saying 'Allah willing'. These two people have more in common than they'll admit. I'll only say, and this will probably make me the enemy of every American on the board, that I have slightly more respect for Bin Laden than Bush. I despise the man and his actions, and given the opportunity would strike him dead for the future victims of his actions, but he has, at least according to his beliefs, taken the virtuous path and a life of danger and what would seem to be now, great discomfort, instead of hanging at home with his rich family.
In reelecting Bush, Americans have again signed up for the selfish and I gotta think in relation to their world position, stupidly blind action. I say stupid because this is a man who has neglected the lower class majority of his country and allowed the biggest foreign strike since Pearl Harbour. AND YET AMERICANS SAY THEY FEEL SAFER WITH HIM IN THE WHITEHOUSE! The 9/11 (or 11/9 as we would say it (it does lack that ring though)) attack was a result of decades of biased and unjust foreign policy in the middle east due to Republican and Democrat alike. Bush has embarked on a policy that will deepen this Arab hate and resentment 100 fold. I really think that he's making the world a much more dangerous place. And we're all going to pay for it.
Well thats my longest rant so far by a long shot. I hope you all read it if you're going to rip into me and try and see what I mean.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Genryu, Iraq was a much a part of the larger "War on Terror" campaign.
Did they **** up trying to explain why we went in? Yes.
Was it wrong? HEEEEEEEELLLLLL NO!
Also, I would be afraid of a leader who didn't admit that he prays regularly. And it's not a separation of faith from decision making, it's a separation of government from favoring one religion over another, and that's all it is.
Explain to me exactly how you can make a decision without faith anyway? Any decision requires faith that it will turn out okay, either by chance or divine influence.
Shut the **** up. This isn't a political debate. It's his ****ing opinion. Read the first damn post and bugger off.
Also goes for the rest of you. No rebuttals.
Please.
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[color=66ff00]Pretty much everything Black Wolf said.
I always remember this quote:
America is an enormous frosted cupcake in the middle of millions of starving people."
-- Gloria Steinem
I don't completely agree with it, there are horrific numbers of americans living below the poverty line, the moneyholders have all the control and sate the masses with an illusion of democracy and choice.
Americans get to choose whoever's got enough money to get into office. Those people are put there effectively by doing favours for the corrupt money owners who want to sack other countries for oil, make money building weapons, tell you what food to eat, tell you what music, or film, or television show to watch, and they do this with a smile and a handshake that makes you believe that it was you that chose.
Ultimately america will either kill itself or kill all of us in it's death throes if it continues on the path it has been following.
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Gotta agree with that. America is becoming more and more facist by the day, at least in regard to certain minorities, i.e. people of an Arabic heritage. I say this because citizens rights are being weathered away in favour of the state (read the patriot act and others I probably havent heard of).
Only difference in this case is that the state is now being controlled by corporations instead of itself being the top of the pile. Its all leading to people not mattering. Its already happened in 'far away' and 'out of sight' nations and is starting to reach back to the source too.
I sound like a Doomday sayer but its happening. As Bush himself has quoted ,'The price of Freedom is constant vigilance'. But thats worth nothing if we let ourselves be told where and against who to direct that vigilance while ignoring all others.
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I believe that knowing your enemy means knowing the ones both at home and overseas. I believe a lot of Americans have forgotten this.
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never been in usa, so it's hard to reply trying to making a serious discussion.
All the European countries have millennia of history. Even when they are "young" as a State (Italy for example). This is history, and I don't mean a simple succession of facts, is the history of the western society, and it goes from the greek polis to the roman empire, the barbaric invasions, the new raise of rome as religious capital, the renaissance, the Luther's reform, the french revolution, the world wars, the industrial revolution, communism.... and the birth of USA is one of those big chapters.
You are the product of those millenia of history exactly like us because we have the same fathers but more like if you are a relative who wanted to go away from his known world starting something completely new.
This history define what we are as individuals, what is our role in our societies, the philosophy of states as organizations... even if we are not aware of it, and the results aren't the same for all the western societies, and I don't think that americans realize how different they are from many of the europeans, and viceversa, as europeans are often very different to each other (there are for example big differences between catholic and protestan states).
Those differences are usually perceived in a negative way, and tends to vanish into a nationalistic beliefs, like when you as a fan of a football team judge the fans of another team.
I think that we live in a period of great transformations of the results of this history, those transformations are in act in your society but also, in a different manner, in Europe, althought we don't completely realise it, and they are causing a crisis of our old "weltanschaung" but it is easyer to see the problems of the neighbor than our owns.
There are many other reasons for all the misunderstandings between usa and europe, I just cleaned the surface, trying to go over the stereotypes of the american cowboys, stupid, ignorant, who believe that everything has a price, and the europeans weak, traitors etc etc
Personally I hope -but doubt so- that one day we'll go over those misunderstanding finding a way to learn from each other (and we need it badly!)... before we'll have to start learning chinese:)
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If you're intersted in the good old "Why do they hate us" question, I've just remembered a quote that sums it up nicely.
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
George Orwell
*shrug*
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In the circles I frequent, the US is respected as a powerful example of industrial and military might as much as it is resented for being responsible for so much world conflict. Particularly with regard to Australia - it seems that our government loves to follow America wherever it leads, and yet we are punished in trade agreements that really harm the export market for our farmers. Generally it seems reasonable to believe in Sydney that the US has no interest in helping anyone in the world - everyone else can pretty much wither and die, so long as the US continues to prosper. It's pretty negative, and I don't like this attitude toward the US, but there it is in plain sight.
- Eddie Woo
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Hmm, if Australia (and Canada), both relatively powerful Western nations have trouble dealing with the US on trade issues (specifically, the issue of imports and impact of free trade), imagine how much trouble some impoverished third world nation has. I often think that if Canada were located somewhere in Latin America, it would long ago have had a puppet government set up, after years of oppression been overthrown, replaced by a legitimate government which would finally have been forced to accept foreign rule and "structural readjustment" plans.
But I digress....
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It's a valid point, Rictor. With the amount of trouble it causes, it's only a matter of time - decades, centuries - before it all comes crashing down.
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Yep, who would have thought that the USSR would disintegrate? but it did. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" And yes, it's not a valid comparison, but the US contains the seeds of it's own destruction. It will be financial, not political though......
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There's no such thing as an equal relationship with a superpower.... the likes of the UK / Australia, are just hoping for a few happy scraps to fall from the table.
I think the only real complaint I can have against the US, is that it (i.e. the government, usually regardless of the actual party in charge) seems to have a very insular attitude which means that international opinion is often ignored or brushed aside as irrelevant. And there is nothing more galling to a people as to be treated as invisible.
Like all countries, the US has both faults and good points. But I think the sheer size of the country, means that its faults affect the entire worlds view, whereas - for example - that's not a problem that affects the UK.
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Good point guys, to be fair to the US, every nation simply looks for its own interest. I have yet to see a nation go out of its way to help other nations just for the spirit of charity. They are all doing this because they know they can get some sort of pay back or leverage from it.
America simply tends to push other nations like Aussie around simply because it is advantagous for them and they can get away with it but if the tables were turned I'm sure Austraila would do the same to the US.
And I agree, dispite of being a huge part of a continent the US's insular attitude make them come off like an island nation :)
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Don't talk to me about scraps from the table. The parade of spineless asskissing and gutless accomodation that is issuing forth from the Canadian press is recent days is really quite pathetic. The Prime Minster publicly rebuked Carolyn Parish (an MP who is known for making anti-American* statements) for calling Bush a "war-like man" in the wake of the election, despite the fact that he is, and has publicly paraded the fact.
Originally posted by aldo_14
I think the only real complaint I can have against the US, is that it (i.e. the government, usually regardless of the actual party in charge) seems to have a very insular attitude which means that international opinion is often ignored or brushed aside as irrelevant. And there is nothing more galling to a people as to be treated as invisible.
So, you don't actually resent that they lord over the world, but that, what, they don't consult you while doing it? The problem surely is not the fact that they responsible for untold suffering, but that they haven't, in recent times only, bothered to get it rubber-stamped by the UN in an effort to pay lip-service to "multilateralism"? C'mon, you're going to have to do better than that.
*calling the US government "bastards" and suggesting that Canada not join the "coalition of the idiots", those who plan to the join the US in its missle defense scheme.