Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on November 25, 2004, 09:52:21 am
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THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF STEAM AND THE STEAM SOFTWARE REMAINS WITH YOU, THE USER. VALVE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTY FOR STEAM AND THE STEAM SOFTWARE. STEAM AND THE STEAM SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT. ANY WARRANTY AGAINST INFRINGEMENT THAT MAY BE PROVIDED IN SECTION 2-312(3) OF THE UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE AND/OR IN ANY OTHER COMPARABLE STATE STATUTE IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED.
VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S). YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK WITH RESPECT TO THE PERFORMANCE AND RESULTS OF THE STEAM SOFTWARE IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR HARDWARE.
NEITHER VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, NOR THEIR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT, YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS AND THE STEAM SOFTWARE INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT. BECAUSE SOME STATES OR JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS, VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, AND THEIR AFFILIATES LIABILITY SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.
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You MUST have Steam to play HalfLife2 right? Therefore STEAM is an inseperable function from the game. Doesn't this mean they are trying to say that no matter what goes wrong with Half Life 2, you are the person responsible for it?
Seems a wee bit iffy in the UK, gonna check that out ;)
Edit : Bolded another interesting part.
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NEITHER VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, NOR THEIR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT, YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS AND THE STEAM SOFTWARE INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES.
That's brilliant.
Our software is perfect. It's the users fault.
Talk about drinking the kool-aid.
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As far as I'm aware in the UK, you cannot turn around and say 'This Trading Standard Law doesn't apply to us because we say so'.
It doesn't work like that.
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****e, innit? I'm currently deciding if there's any point in keeping the game still installed or whether I should chance I my arm and just return it (now I've finished it).
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..., WORK STOPPAGE, .....
Is that a real word ?
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Apparently it is if this document says so......
Thing is, my eldest brother is a senior Trading Standards officer, and, as far as I'm aware, there is a reason that Trading Standards is called that and not 'The Trading Law Enforcement Agency' or the like.....
The rules of Merchantible Quality etc are not laws that can be broken (or chosen to be excluded from). They are Standards, that must be met for the goods to be legally sold in the UK...
I'm going to show my brother this agreement next time I see him :D
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Oh, and installation halted because of an error..... :wtf:
Do not tell me it won't install with IE running........:mad:
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If Valve say it is...
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Thank goodness my PC is too rubbish to have this stress
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I'm serious, I hope they get sued. This is ridicioulous. I'm not buying HL2 as long as Steam is needed for singleplayer.
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Law eats EULAs for breakfast.
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'Your subscription to Half Life 2 Retail Standard has not been completed because Steam servers are currently unable to process the transaction.'
'You won't be able to play HalfLife 2 until the subscription process is complete. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.'
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
I'm paying £35 effing quid to sit on my arse and wait?!?!?!.
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Translation:
$t3@m d03sn't pr0mis3 j@ck $hitz0r!!!1111
th1$ iz cuz $t3@m $ux0rz!!!!!!11111
d0n't b3 @ nubz0r @nd c0mpl@in wh3n ur g@mez0rz d0n't w0rk!!!!!1111 j00 h@v3 b33n w@rnz0r3d!!!!!!!!!!111111
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Originally posted by Flipside
'I'm paying £35 effing quid to sit on my arse and wait?!?!?!.
While I'm mostly sorry for you part of me does get the feeling that if you were stupid enough to pay £35 for this abuse......
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Tell me about it....
Ah well, it seems to have finally registered me, and I am now sitting waiting for it to decrypt stuff........
It's like the puzzles start before the game even runs......
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Originally posted by karajorma
While I'm mostly sorry for you part of me does get the feeling that if you were stupid enough to pay £35 for this abuse......
Oi! We didn;t know it was going to be like this, did we? Just expected to switch on the internet, spend 5 seconds getting a little acknowledgement that we could play the game, and then quickly uninstall Steam and get back to shotting stuff.
no-one told me I'd actually have to keep the damn thing installed on me PC, neverless that i'd have to wait on it 'validating' my copy every bloody time I wanted to play using the CD key and with the DVD in the bloody drive.
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those who pirated it seems to be a lot better off...
not that I did, or even wanted to. hl2 doesn't really interest me.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Oi! We didn;t know it was going to be like this, did we? Just expected to switch on the internet, spend 5 seconds getting a little acknowledgement that we could play the game, and then quickly uninstall Steam and get back to shotting stuff.
no-one told me I'd actually have to keep the damn thing installed on me PC, neverless that i'd have to wait on it 'validating' my copy every bloody time I wanted to play using the CD key and with the DVD in the bloody drive.
If you hadn't heard how bad it actually was then I suppose I can't blame you.
All the people I've heard talking about it have claimed that you don't need a net connection to play the game once you've registered it. Have you tried just firewalling the game now that it's registered?
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I truly and honestly hope someome is going to go class action against Valve.
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VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S). YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK WITH RESPECT TO THE PERFORMANCE AND RESULTS OF THE STEAM SOFTWARE IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR HARDWARE.
:blah: now that just sucks
after i uninstall HL2 I'am not going ever install it again
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Originally posted by karajorma
All the people I've heard talking about it have claimed that you don't need a net connection to play the game once you've registered it. Have you tried just firewalling the game now that it's registered?
I heard you can turn the update check off or something, that's what it wants to connect for.
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Buy it, suckers, buy it! Serves you right for giving money to those bastards, you know. :p
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Originally posted by karajorma
If you hadn't heard how bad it actually was then I suppose I can't blame you.
All the people I've heard talking about it have claimed that you don't need a net connection to play the game once you've registered it. Have you tried just firewalling the game now that it's registered?
Unless you disconnect your network connection (which I believe requires some people to physically disconnect if they have an 'always on' connection), you don't even get the option to run Steam in 'offline' mode. firewalls don't work - it just fails and dies trying to connect.
Other thing is that it seems you need to keep both Steam and the game up to date; so you can't perm-block Steam and still get patches, and you obviously can't just uninstall Steam on its own.
It feels (note; feels - I'm not saying it's a code-rinning VM as you get with the likes of Java) as if Steam is some sort of VM-esque middleware; you can only play HL2 (and I presume forthcoming Valve stuff, and also the modding tools) if you have it installed. It seems to have this horrible constricting 'lock-in' to the actual game. Plus you don't know if the occasional (sometimes frequent) stutter and crash is from the game or the still-running Steam.
I had honestly expected Steam wouldn't be as bad as some of the rants I've heard. I also expected I'd only need to use it once to validate the game and then could remove it.
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What concerns me more is what happens when, for example, Valve decide in 5 years time that they can't be bothered to keep the Steam servers running, or the company crashes or the like?
Does that mean that every single owner of HL2 must simply 'accept' that they cannot play the game they paid for?
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Originally posted by Flipside
[B
Does that mean that every single owner of HL2 must simply 'accept' that they cannot play the game they paid for? [/B]
I think Valve would release patch if that happens (that you don't need steam anymore to play HL2)
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More likely you'd need to wait for someone to write a little client to mimic the steam servers on your local machine.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
More likely you'd need to wait for someone to write a little client to mimic the steam servers on your local machine.
Well, there's already a Steam emulator out, apparently, so... But according to Valve, it's illegal. ;)
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There is of course the little question of trying to completely sidestep any responsibility for the security of either your computer or their own servers, whilst still requiring you to have a connection to them.
Just sounds like such a handy excuse to put something in there in the first place.
I still remember that whole RealPlayer thing :(
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I am soooo happy that I decided to never buy Valve's (STEAM required) games. Cheers.
P.S. My sympathies to you, Flip, and to anyone else forced to use STEAM(ing Pile of ****)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Unless you disconnect your network connection (which I believe requires some people to physically disconnect if they have an 'always on' connection), you don't even get the option to run Steam in 'offline' mode. firewalls don't work - it just fails and dies trying to connect.
Other thing is that it seems you need to keep both Steam and the game up to date; so you can't perm-block Steam and still get patches, and you obviously can't just uninstall Steam on its own.
It feels (note; feels - I'm not saying it's a code-rinning VM as you get with the likes of Java) as if Steam is some sort of VM-esque middleware; you can only play HL2 (and I presume forthcoming Valve stuff, and also the modding tools) if you have it installed. It seems to have this horrible constricting 'lock-in' to the actual game. Plus you don't know if the occasional (sometimes frequent) stutter and crash is from the game or the still-running Steam.
I had honestly expected Steam wouldn't be as bad as some of the rants I've heard. I also expected I'd only need to use it once to validate the game and then could remove it.
Now this is odd. I've heard several times that you can install Steam on one machine, register and then go play HL2 on another machine without installing Steam. I always found that odd cause what I'd heard seems to agree with you.
Diid you download your copy or buy it in the shops?
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Originally posted by karajorma
Now this is odd. I've heard several times that you can install Steam on one machine, register and then go play HL2 on another machine without installing Steam. I always found that odd cause what I'd heard seems to agree with you.
Diid you download your copy or buy it in the shops?
Retail copy, of course. For the dl-ed copy, I wouldn't have quite so much a quibble with it.
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NB: I mentioned this on a bluesnews thread, someone pointed out there is this clause;
BECAUSE SOME STATES OR JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS, VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, AND THEIR AFFILIATES LIABILITY SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.
Dunno if that covers the UK / EU / whatever liability issue. If so, I guess it'll be the Americans who are getting shafted, not us?
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Well, seems that Valve's gone Bush on us. It's a sad day when this sort of thing happens. Especially after the gaming community practically handed those hackers over to the authorities.
The way I see it, this could lead in two directions. If STEAM succeeds and people buy into that load of bull, every major game producing/developing firm will create a similar system claiming security purposes. On the other hand, if STEAM fails, we'll be short one of the most influential companies of our time. Welcome to the legal age everbody, enjoy your stay, but you'd better have a good lawyer if you do.
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STEAM failing doesn't mean that Valve would be dead, just that they actually had a bad idea and could execute on it properly.
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Originally posted by demon442
Well, seems that Valve's gone Bush on us. It's a sad day when this sort of thing happens. Especially after the gaming community practically handed those hackers over to the authorities.
The way I see it, this could lead in two directions. If STEAM succeeds and people buy into that load of bull, every major game producing/developing firm will create a similar system claiming security purposes. On the other hand, if STEAM fails, we'll be short one of the most influential companies of our time. Welcome to the legal age everbody, enjoy your stay, but you'd better have a good lawyer if you do.
Steam won't succeed. If it was going to there wouldn't be such an uproar and people taking the damn thing back to the shops. I've seen three people making use of GAME's refund policy with HL2 so far in just over a week. And personally I regret buying the game - it wasn't really that good - and will probably warez the next title Valve puts out.
And I don't share your assessment of Valve being that much of an influential company. They have produced one great and one good game but it's taken them a decade to do so, and that's with an insanely high budget and supposedly the cream of the gaming industry. Other companies (e.g. Bioware) have done much more with much less, I feel.
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BioWare > Valve
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It seems that, yes, Valve put something in their license which disclaims their disclaimer if they aren't allowed to pull that stunt, which they cannot in the UK, a consumer is protected by rights that fall outside of their control :D
America has things like the 'Lemon Laws' iirc? Do they cover digital media?
Edit : Oh, and it is unlikely to cause a mass return of goods, after all, how many people read the EULA when they install a game? And Steam only has to last long enough... for 90% of game players, if Steam vanished in 5 years, they wouldn't even notice. ;)
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I doubt I'd be playing half life 2 in 6 months time, let alone 5 years.
That said, Valve have promised a 'surprise' next week; maybe they will even release something that will change my opinion (fat ****ing chance, odds are it'll be another way to screw me over)
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Exactly Aldo, but the sad fact is that it is people like us that would suffer if that were the case. It would be those who Mod the game and create new content.
I can just imagine how I'd feel if I spent all day working on a new ship, booted up Freespace to test it, only to be told I can't play because Interplay have taken their servers down for a weekends maintenance, or someone from admin has borrowed them for a LAN party or whatever :(
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Yeah, apparently the free version of XSI Valve give away as a modelling tool has its exporter capped at 2000-4000 polys; i.e. it's impossible to create retail-quality models using the free tool.
So I've heard, anyways.
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Isn't the standard free download on XSI's website better then?
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Originally posted by demon442
Well, seems that Valve's gone Bush on us. It's a sad day when this sort of thing happens. Especially after the gaming community practically handed those hackers over to the authorities.
The way I see it, this could lead in two directions. If STEAM succeeds and people buy into that load of bull, every major game producing/developing firm will create a similar system claiming security purposes. On the other hand, if STEAM fails, we'll be short one of the most influential companies of our time. Welcome to the legal age everbody, enjoy your stay, but you'd better have a good lawyer if you do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4041289.stm
even if it's succesful companies will have to be careful. How many steam-like-accounts do you think people are willing to put up with before they say 'shove it!'? Not all that many imho.
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Originally posted by kasperl
I'm serious, I hope they get sued. This is ridicioulous. I'm not buying HL2 as long as Steam is needed for singleplayer.
Downlaod the HL2 crack and get rid of steam.
I did!
Aahh....heaven!!!
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*zot*
That was the sound of Trashman's other Valve games being shut off.
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I don't think they're cyber stalking users.
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Originally posted by vyper
I don't think they're cyber stalking users.
no, they probably don't. they are just too incompetent for achieving such a task.
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Wow, this is the most i've been quoted since...ever.
Chances are, in the UK, steam will fail and Valve will lose a huge market in that country. Good for you and your logical, well thought out, and most of all working laws. But here in the US, I have a feeling that most gamers woun't care enough about privacy and good software to make an independant effort to rid themselves of steam. Hopefully the word about steam will spread a little more quickly than Valve's excuses.
In the end, it all comes down to how much faith you put in the american people, and im not holding my breath on this one.
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Another Steam/Half-life horror story.
So, I get the game. I carefully peel off the tape holding the package closed so as to not ruin the package. Inside, I find five CDs, a $20 ATI coupon, and a miniature HL2 'Quick Reference' guide.
Okay, I think, read the instructions on the card and follow them in installing HL2.
First problem - I selected D:\Steam for the steam installation dir, and suddenly Half-life and CS:S are installing themselves to the same spot. Oh, they're just a part of Steam now...well, then, I guess that makes a little sense.
Finally, four CDs later, Half-Life 2 is installed. Or so I think. First I have to set up a Steam account. But Steam also needs to update itself. Finally, Steam starts and I get an offer to buy HL2. WTH? I just want to play the game, I already bought it. Oh, I have to register it. Enter in the key, register it, and it starts getting HL:Deathmatch. After waiting for awhile, I decide it's really not worth the wait and cancel (Apparently I have to decrypt the update...?).
After poking around, trying to find how to play the damn game, I finally close the steam window, flip open the start menu, and fire it up the old-fashioned way. Oops! Turns out I still have to wait 15-30 minutes for the game to decrypt.
Great, the game's finally decrypted...why that was even necessary, I don't know, since I have to connect to steam to play anyway. Wait, what the hell is this? I still don't have an up-to-date version? All right, wait another five minutes for the game to update.
Finally, it's done. It starts "Preparing to start Half-life 2". No, HL2 doesn't work with the 5th CD in the drive. I put in the first one and hit the "Retry" button on the dialog.
And wait.
After a few minutes, and checking the Task manager for CPU usage, I realize Half-life 2 really isn't going to start. So, I check the readme which was on the CD (But not mentioned at all on the 'Quick Reference Card') and see Half-Life 2 doesn't work, except on Administrator accounts.
So I log on as Administrator. It still doesn't start.
So I reinstall the damned thing, made all the more difficult by the fact I have to uninstall it as the user I uninstalled it on AND it didn't show up in the Add/Remove programs list; I even had to manually check the Steam directory to find the uninstall program for it.
With a download speed 1/10 of what it was before, I repeat the entire procedure. Fortunately, I just had to log in and had found the 'play games' window for Steam, so I was able to start HL2 right after Steam had loaded.
Guess what? It didn't work. Same problem as before.
Now I'm sitting on a HL forum, waiting for someone to respond to the thread of someone who had the same problem as me and spent an hour working with tech support to try and resolve the problem (and failed). The feeling from the members is that it is somehow offensive to dare have problems with Half-Life 2, or to criticize steam if a problem occurs that would be solved if the damned thing weren't necessary to run Half-Life 2.
Personally? My HL2 experience would be a lot better if they spent the money required to develop steam to give people some incentive to buy the game legally. Like, say, a $5 bill in the box or maybe a decent manual. Hell, getting rid of all this 'protection' bull**** would be incentive enough for me. I prefer to buy games legally to support the companies. Valve is rapidly killing my eagerness to support them, though. HL2 may be a great game, but right now it's worthless to me. Unless I want to use Steam to buy more copies.
It's too bad that Valve spent work getting the shop to buy the game working instead of getting the game itself working.
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It's probably because the release of DM last night managed to overload the servers.... yet a-bloody-gain; another fundamental problem of the Steam validation process.
EDIt; oh, and notice that when you connect to Steam you have absolutely no way to cancel the logging in process - there's even a grayed ot 'cancel' button to apparently taunt you.
And why the hell - AFAIK, there's no info I can find but I doubt you can - can't you be allowed to download a duplicate copy of HL2 as a backup if you've got the retail copy? i mean seeing as we've proved we already own it and everything? And have to go through an even more annoying process of keeping cd-in-drive than digital only owners?
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Another Steam/Half-life horror story...
So take the damn thing back to the store, get your money back, and go play GTA:San Andreas. ;)
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It's one of the few times that I have actually been glad that a program, without asking my consent, has inserted a shortcut to itself into my boot-up menu. Because that means that whenever Steam tries to start, it can;t find a connection, and whinges and I can quit it there and then :/
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Well, after a reboot it's started working...fortunale for Valve...and it looks pretty darn good. (Plays good, too.)