Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: High Max on November 28, 2004, 03:43:04 pm
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;-)
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:welcome:
There's a lot of theories out there. A lot of people think different things. A lot of people think that they should just let the shivans be an enigma. You're quite welcome to post your ideas, but keep in mind that you'll probably have a lot of people disagree with you.
In my opinion, it doesn't seem plausable, from what we have seen before...
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Originally posted by High Max
I think that it's possible that each species that the Shivans annihalate, the Shivans somehow add some physical body parts of those species to themselves. It says that they are interested in xenocide. Perhaps the Shavans look the way they do because the Shivan race inherits physical traits of every race that they have exterminated. Their ships might also be a combination of the physical traits of ships that belonged to every race they destroyed. They took Bosch and maybe they were using Bosch so they could do experiments on him and find a way to fuse human DNA into themselves. Maybe the Supernova, when you saw the Shivan and Terran corvettes get blasted by the blue shockwave and saw the debris get mixed together, it might have represented the Shivans DNA combining with the Terrans DNA.:confused:
I like the thinking, especially the part at the end about symbolism but I don't agree.
The one thing that I think punctures this is the message from the science advisors regarding the technology of the Knossos portal. They say the Knossos portal is distinct from the Shivans technology despite their diversity. I'm paraphrasing so I'd have to go back and find that for the exact quote.
You'd think if the Shivans somehow had borrowed something from the Ancients they would have been able to make a connection between the Knossos and the Shivan ships and technology they have studied.
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Given that the Shivans are/were massively in advance of the GTVA/Ancients, I'm not sure what they'd have to gain from 'hybridising' with any race they destroy.
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The Shivans don't seem that advanced. Yes, they're powerful. Yes, they've got some technological edges. But I see their advantages more in the area of raw resources than sheer technology.
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We have to remember FS1. Their purpose wasnt exploration or assimilation; it was destruction. Bombarding Vasuda Prime into a wasteland and disintegrating the marines onboard the captured Azrael isnt the best way to study another species. Unless you like to see how well they disintegrate. Then, by all means, lets let the shivans carry on.
I personally prefer the opinions in the Shivan Manifesto. I read the whole damn thing and really didnt have any arguements. Read it if you are that into the story.
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Does anyone besides me think we need a subforum devoted entirely to the discussion of Shivans? There's so much to talk about on the subject it might be a good idea.
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Nah. The main forum can get quiet at times. We're seeing a lot about them recently cause we're getting another influx of new people thanks to some german magazine putting FS2 on it's coverdisk.
You know. We should really get them to put FS2_Open on there too :D
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karajorma, interesting idea. I guess that *could* be possible, depending on what the SCP people and the HLP admins think. It may attract a lot of attention, but it may also draw a lot of idiots. :blah:
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Back to topic?
I've been thinking about how the Shivans knew about Sol and Vasuda Prime being the respective home worlds. They never seemed intent to take prisoners and therefore no interrogation. They cant read minds or crap like that otherwise they'd have beaten us (completely) long ago. The only good conclusion I can think of supports another theory: Shivan's have a sixth sense of subspace. What systems would the GTA and PVN most actively use subspace in, excluding the contested systems of the T-V war? Their homeworlds. That's how they knew to target them.
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I suspect they recovered computer records from wreckage of destroyed craft myself. It would also explain why they had to take some time. I would imagine that GTA and PVN craft are designed to destroy their onboard records when they are destroyed.
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I'll sign on with the "sixth-sense" idea -- they see subspace traffic, they find and kill subspace traffic. Hunter-killers meant to keep the flux of subspace clean.
The galactic janitors, if you will, mopping the floor with BFRed's. :p
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The reason they didnt use the Ross 128 (and Ikeya?) node(s) was probably because they became unstable. It's even possible that the Lucifer fleet was sent out as a scout for the rest of the armada to follow but the node collapsed or became too unstable. Another scout wing was not neccesary in FS2 because the Shivans knew what they were up against, or at least they thought they did. We countered with our beams, and they began deployment of their armada in the nebula as we pushed in.
Or maybe they sent only the Lucifer back to the system because they knew it would be enough to handle anything that may have come up. They had been through the systems before, remember, and its possible they had already 'cleansed the entire area' Once the Lucifer was destroyed, its possible the nodes to T-V space were unstable.
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Originally posted by Striker
The reason they didnt use the Ross 128 (and Ikeya?) node(s) was probably because they became unstable. It's even possible that the Lucifer fleet was sent out as a scout for the rest of the armada to follow but the node collapsed or became too unstable. Another scout wing was not neccesary in FS2 because the Shivans knew what they were up against, or at least they thought they did. We countered with our beams, and they began deployment of their armada in the nebula as we pushed in.
Or maybe they sent only the Lucifer back to the system because they knew it would be enough to handle anything that may have come up. They had been through the systems before, remember, and its possible they had already 'cleansed the entire area' Once the Lucifer was destroyed, its possible the nodes to T-V space were unstable.
All this assumes that the GTVA was the target...I firmly believe that we weren't. We're so self absorbed and self directed that it appears that they "must be coming for us." But they pretty much ignore the GTVA when you think about it. Sure they destroyed everything in their path...but their path took them to the Capella star. Everything else was just a securing action. There was no known (nothing mentioned and certainly nothing lasting - due to GTVA efforts or other) incursions into Epsilon Pegasi or Vega despite their massive buildup.
And if you think about it...80 Juggernaughts...could have wiped out the Bastion, the Colossus, the Capella Fleet HQ, and smashed their way across the GTVA with no trouble at all. But it never happened....
So if the Capella star supernova was to shut the GTVA up or something like that....it was a waste of time.
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Here's a logical progression of my theory...
Lucifer fleet decimates Ancients b/c of subspace overuse
X000 years later...
T-V War attracts attention from Shivan monitors (that have access to T-V space) for using subspace too much.
Shivans deploy Lucy & co. b/c they know that it can handle ships from that system.
Lucy fleet enters through Ross128 node
(at some point Ross128 node becomes unstable)
Lucy is destroyed en route to Sol
Shivans receive word of demise through subspace communications, but cant send full armada due to node unstability
Bosch's men open Knossos
Shivans know that GTVA is capable of destroying Lucifer
Shivans deploy Ravana strength fleet in nebula
GTVA destroys Ravana
Shivans deploy one Sathanas
GTVA destroys Sathanas
Shivans send in 80+ Sathani
Motives for Capella still unknown
If you look at it this way,
Lucy w/ fleet
We destroy it, they send something tougher. Easy to see.
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Actualy I'm preety sure the lucifer fleet was more powerfull than the first ravana fleet, the ravan was jut to hold the terrans off while the shivans moved the sath to the front lines.
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I'm starting to think that the Shivans aren't drawn to subspace disturbances, though they are attuned to them.
The Shivans are drawn to conflict. Perhaps they believe strongly in peace: strongly enough that they are ready, willing, and able to enforce it on those who are unwilling to be peaceful. For those who attract the attention of the Shivans recieve the most absolute and final form of peace imagineable: that of being dead. Or maybe the Shivans just like a good fight. Or maybe their motives for finding and extingushing conflicts are beyond comprehension. Regardless, their actions are not.
The Shivans slaughtered the Ancients, but only after a long period of time in which the Ancients were slaughtering other folks. This would seem to contradict my premise, but note that I said the Shivans were drawn to conflict, not violence. That wording was intentional.
According to the Ancients monologues most of the species the Ancients wiped out didn't (or couldn't) put up much of a fight. I can only guess, but maybe a little while before the Shivans came along there was a species that did put up a fight, not enough of one to stop the Ancients, but enough to bloody them.
In come the Shivans, drawn to the conflict, to destroy the combatants. They only find one standing, and wipe them out.
8000 years later, we have the Terran-Vasudan War. It's a long one, 14 years, and so I would guess it was not a high-intensity war for most of that time. Around the time the Shivans show up, however, it had clearly escalated to a high-intensity war. (Look at the casuality figures for Operation Thresher, for example. That's a lot of people considering they're pilots. Had they been infantry, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but five hundred pilots is an awful lot to lose in one operation.)
And here come the Shivans again, determined to enforce a final solution to the question of Terran-Vasudan relations. Only they fail. The Terrans and Vasudans unite against them, and destroy the Shivan expeditionary fleet.
But, this may well have been viewed by the Shivans as a victory. They did not immeditately withdraw once the Terrans and Vasudans had made peace with each other because that peace would have evaporated almost as quickly as it had been created. So the Shivans kept fighting. If they ultimately won, there would be a final, total peace. If they ultimately lost, but made a good fight of it, one that forced the Terrans and Vasudans to work together to the fullest, to support each other economically, militarily, and socially, to integrate, then the peace between the Terrans and Vasudans might well last.
32 years later, the NTF Rebellion breaks out. It does not attract the Shivans attention, however. Perhaps it would have eventually, but there is a short-circuit of that process. 17 months into the NTF Rebellion, the NTC Trinity activates the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis and enters the nebula.
We actually don't know who fired first in this case. We do know the Shivans fired first on the GTC Vigilant, but we do not know if the NTC Trinity fired first on the Shivans. I find it highly probable the Trinity encountered a Shivan patrol, which closed to look over this Terran ship that had somehow entered Shivan-controlled space. The Trinity, seeing Shivan ships and knowing what the Shivans did the last time they were in the neighborhood, interprets this as the Shivan patrol preparing to attack, and opens fire.
Now, the NTF Rebellion hasn't reached the level of conflict yet where the Shivans decide to intervene. Maybe they haven't noticed it. But if you're going to show up in Shivan-controlled space and attack them, they're going to respond in kind. The Shivans dispatch a probing force through the subspace portal to take a look around, set up a base camp on the other side, and in general prepare for a sortie.
The first Rakshasa into Vega encounters the GTC Vigilant. The Vigilant sees what are probably a Shivan cruiser and several Shivan fighter wings, goes to general quarters, and warms up the guns in preparation to attack. The Shivans didn't ask any questions before or after shooting last time, and they aren't expected to this time. The Rakshasa interprets the Vigilant's actions as the prelude to an attack, and shoots first. Or perhaps the Rakshasa, encountering what is probably a Terran ship, attacks, not realizing that it is attacking a GTVA ship and not an NTF one. After all, the Trinity had to come from somewhere, and Vega is the most likely canidate (Gamma Draconis was uncolonized and empty).
Now the GTVA knows the Shivans are back in town. And considering that both of the member races of the GTVA lost their homeworlds because of the Shivans, from the moment the Rakshasa fired on the Vigilant there was no chance of a peaceful resolution. There was little chance that the Shivans and GTVA could have come to a peaceful resolution before the Rakshasa attacked the Vigilant.
The GTVA now must do something with that information. They choose to act on it, swiftly, decisively. The Shivans were not all that powerful in the last invasion, only a few destroyers, a bunch of cruisers, and a lot of fighters. (In fact, probably only three or four destroyers: that's all Terran Command seemed to think that there were in FS1.) The GTVA's military arm was built and trained for just this moment. There is no hesitation, and the order is given: Attack!
The Shivans, meanwhile, may or may not have realized their error in attacking the GTC Viligant. At this point, it does not really matter. What they did not expect was the speed and power of the GTVA's counterattack. Vega Command hears the Viligant's distress calls and tells the Carthage and Dashor to drop everything and head to the Gamma Draconis node. The Carthage and Dashor arrive on the scene at most a few minutes after the Viligant is destroyed, perhaps less. The Carthage deploys fighter and bomber wings. Both it and the Dashor move to engage. The Rakshasa and its escorts never really have a chance.
This engagement gives the Shivans pause. The GTVA's ships are not the equal of their Shivan equivalents, but they are close, close enough that the difference is not insurmountable. The GTVA, meanwhile, is executing its preset war plans for second contact with the Shivans: attack with all available force, at once. They are confidant in their knowledge of Shivan ships and tactics, have trained and prepared for this battle for 32 years. They will prevail.
Before the Shivans can fully digest the implications of the engagement at the Gamma Draconis node, the GTD Aquitaine arrives in Gamma Draconis and engages Shivan forces there. The Shivans are unprepared, and are driven before the Aquitaine's battlegroup or destroyed. The Aquitaine, moving at blitzkrieg pace, pushes on through the portal and engages Shivan forces in the nebula, pushing them back, inflicting heavy casualities.
The Shivans are shocked. This has never happened before. Not only has their planned offensive come a cropper, a first in and of itself, but the offensive has actually been turned around on them as the GTVA pushes into the nebula.
Then suddenly, it stops. The GTVA stops pushing and merely starts to hold. The Shivans are mystified, but use the breather constructively, dispatching a Sathanas and supporting warships to push the GTVA back out of Shivan space and then end this fight in the usual Shivan fashion of annhilating all oppostion. In reality, what the Shivans don't know is that the GTVA is in the process of dealing the deathblow to the NTF.
The Sathanas is coming, but it isn't there yet, when suddenly the GTVA explodes into action again, pushing harder then they had before, throwing more ships and firepower into the attack then before. The Shivan front line crumbles, and rear-area Shivan operations are opened to Allied attack (the gas miners you hit in your first Vausdan mission). But all is not lost: the Shivans finally get the Sathanas into the area, and as they hoped GTVA opposition crumbles before the might of the juggernaut.
Then the battles at either end of the Gamma Draconis-Capella node result in the destruction of the Sathanas, and suddenly the GTVA is back, pushing hard yet again, trampling the small Shivan force still in the nebula. More Sathani are dispatched.
Something odd is happening too, though: one Terran ship is not attacking them, but trying to communicate with them. The Shivans are mystified, but agree to meet Bosch and talk with him. The combat aboard the Iceni was a colossal miscommunication, a panicked crewer firing on the Shivans that boarded and the situation escalating badly before Bosch got through to both the Shivans and his crew. There were, after all, two transports that docked with the Iceni: if Bosch and company, plus the Shivan boarding party (or what was left of it) were onboard the first, who was getting on the second? Probably a good portion of the remainder of the Iceni's crew. But starships were not made to have firefights inside their hulls, and damage was done to the Iceni's systems. Damage that left Lieutenant Rusk and his compatriots in the dark about the peaceful ending to this encounter, although they probably wondered why the Shivans hadn't returned to exterminate them.
From their discussions with Bosch, the Shivans learn that they have made a giant mistake, starting with destroying the GTC Vigilant and moving on to every other GTVA ship and crewer or pilot they have killed since. The GTVA is acting out of an apparent need to defend themselves, not a desire to attack the Shivans. The ones who started it were the crew of the NTC Trinity: even the NTF, in the personage of Aken Bosch, never meant for there to be a war with the Shivans.
But mistake or not, the Shivans have thrown the gauntlet down, and the GTVA has picked the gauntlet up. The GTVA will never make peace with the Shivans. Rather, the GTVA will make every effort to annhilate the Shivans just as the Shivans have annhilated so many others. The Shivans no longer wish to destroy the GTVA, though. The GTVA has done nothing wrong. So somehow, they must end this fight without a formal peace.
The GTVA has Knossos technology: if the Shivans merely retreat and blow the nodes leading into the nebula, the GTVA will believe they are winning, use Knossos portals to reopen the nodes, and continue their campaign. Destroying Gamma Draconis might work. But it might not, as the GTVA might conclude it had cost the Shivans much of their Sathanas fleet, and the rest had gone somewhere else.
Finally the Shivans settle on causing the Capella supernova as the best, most clear way of both sealing themselves off from GTVA incursions by that route, and sending a message: Don't screw with us. We're bigger, we're meaner, and we will kick your ***. And they carry this plan out.
The GTVA doesn't comprehend the reasoning behind what happened, but the message got through loud and clear. They know better then to screw with the Shivans now.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
The first Rakshasa into Vega encounters the GTC Vigilant. The Vigilant sees what are probably a Shivan cruiser and several Shivan fighter wings, goes to general quarters, and warms up the guns in preparation to attack. The Shivans didn't ask any questions before or after shooting last time, and they aren't expected to this time. The Rakshasa interprets the Vigilant's actions as the prelude to an attack, and shoots first. Or perhaps the Rakshasa, encountering what is probably a Terran ship, attacks, not realizing that it is attacking a GTVA ship and not an NTF one. After all, the Trinity had to come from somewhere, and Vega is the most likely canidate (Gamma Draconis was uncolonized and empty).
One thing; the Rakshasa that destroys the Vigilant doesn't wait to fire; it begins powering its beams before it's even left subspace & fires immediately afterwards. The Vigilant wouldn't even have time to warm its guns.
I think one other thing worth noting is that the FS1 ref bible has an interesting cutscene cut;
Act 1 intro
[q]. In research news, the subspace research team on the Terran science cruiser Kirillov have made a press release concerning their lack of solid findings in the past year…
Next shot shows outside of bar’s doors. The etched glass bears the name “ITA Repulse Officer’s Club”
[cut to outside the bar’s doors. A doors part as a crewmember approaches, revealing the noise & such inside]
Anchor: …had the following to say in their press release.
[cut to inside shot, showing newly arrived crewmember walking to the bar.]
Scientist-XXX Since the discovery of subspace travel twenty two years ago, mankind has been able to travel and communicate over many star systems. Subspace travel and communication are used every day, by people in all walks of life. However, research into the inner workings of subspace has been making very slow progress in the past few years. While we have been able to discover the reasons subspace travel works, and how and how to develop devices to utilize it, we are still unsure what subspace really is, and why it’s there to begin with. In past centuries, people made machines based on the principles of gravity before anyone fully understood what caused it.
[cut to a couple crewmembers playing pool]
Anchor: Dr. XXX’s team was recently granted an extension on their military contract for research into subspace origins.
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To me this implies that subspace is highlighted early on for some specific reason; and that subspace travel is far from refined. Maybe Venom/Nico was on the button with his OtT storyline.......
And what's one of the first things the Shivans do - or try to do - in FS2? Secure the Knossos subspace portal.
IF, you think of riviera as a subspace research institute, and Vasuda Prime / Earth as the 'origin' of subspace travel for both species, it gets quite interesting; could the Shivans have been pinpoint-targeting the GTVAs ability to use subspace?
Food for thought, I think. :)
Oh, and as an aside; the Act 3 Misc 2A cutscene (cut, not sure what remains in the command brief) makes it pretty clear that the Shivans had multiple Lucifer-or-similarly shielded vessels during that war;
. In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace. The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down. Unfortunately, the Shivans destroyed their fleets before they could exploit this device.
EDIT; oh, and the Ancients of course retreated to their homeplanet, and still the Shivans came. In other words, the Shivans don't look the type to let any transgressor species survive.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
According to the Ancients monologues most of the species the Ancients wiped out didn't (or couldn't) put up much of a fight. I can only guess, but maybe a little while before the Shivans came along there was a species that did put up a fight, not enough of one to stop the Ancients, but enough to bloody them.
In all those years i've been playing in the FS universe, no matter how may times i watch those monologues, i've never had the impression that the Ancients "wiped out" entire civilizations. I've always tought more of a an empire of enslaved thralls. But maybe that's just me.
Interesting theory tough... :)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
One thing; the Rakshasa that destroys the Vigilant doesn't wait to fire; it begins powering its beams before it's even left subspace & fires immediately afterwards. The Vigilant wouldn't even have time to warm its guns.
That's why I added the second part. The Rakshasa may have just figured it's hostile, since the Trinity was hostile, Gamma Drac was empty, and only one node out of Gamma Drac was fit for use of Terran ships: that to Vega.
To me this implies that subspace is highlighted early on for some specific reason; and that subspace travel is far from refined. Maybe Venom/Nico was on the button with his OtT storyline...
And what's one of the first things the Shivans do - or try to do - in FS2? Secure the Knossos subspace portal.
Well, the cutscene never did make it into the game, and I admit I didn't consult my copy of the reference bible when constructing my theory, but it may have been just an attempt to emphasize the Shivan's superiority over us. Or it may just have been filler, intended to acquaint the player with the realities of life in the FS universe. Impossible to say, open to interpretation.
I don't deny the Shivans might have a lot to do with subspace, might even have been born/created there, but as for the Knossos, that's just good tactics. The GTVA tries to secure it too, after all.
IF, you think of riviera as a subspace research institute, and Vasuda Prime / Earth as the 'origin' of subspace travel for both species, it gets quite interesting; could the Shivans have been pinpoint-targeting the GTVAs ability to use subspace?
Ehh...I'm not buying that one. First, because there's no evidence for the Riveria being such a place. Second, because after entering through the back door in Ross 128, the first places the Shivans hit were systems that were on the front line of the Terran-Vasudan War. Then they headed for Vasuda Prime, pasted that, and went for Earth.
Oh, and as an aside; the Act 3 Misc 2A cutscene (cut, not sure what remains in the command brief) makes it pretty clear that the Shivans had multiple Lucifer-or-similarly shielded vessels during that war; In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace. The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down. Unfortunately, the Shivans destroyed their fleets before they could exploit this device.
That's true. BUT in FS1, you only see THREE Shivan destroyers (SD Lucifer, SD Eva, and the Demon that intercepted the GTD Bastion when it was en route to Delta Serpentis.) and only hear about two before the fact (SD Lucifer and SD Eva).
EDIT; oh, and the Ancients of course retreated to their homeplanet, and still the Shivans came. In other words, the Shivans don't look the type to let any transgressor species survive.
The Ancients, if they had been left alone, would have expanded again, killed more civilizations, and the Shivans would have had to come back eventually. There would not have been a lasting peace. The Ancients would not learn, could not learn, because they still had no reason to be peaceful towards anyone that they encountered: they had conquered everybody, then got their butts kicked by the Shivans.
The Terran-Vasudan alliance is a different case. They have learned the value of peace with other cultures. They have learned tolerance from fighting the Shivans alongside each other. When the GTVA encounters another civilization aside from the Shivans, it is far more likely to extend the hand of friendship then to attack. They have several good reasons for this: among the foremost is that they can use all the allies they can get if the Shivans come back. Another is that every time there has been a major conflict, the Shivans have shown up and caused mass destruction.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
That's why I added the second part. The Rakshasa may have just figured it's hostile, since the Trinity was hostile, Gamma Drac was empty, and only one node out of Gamma Drac was fit for use of Terran ships: that to Vega.
Well, was the Trinity hostile? I mean, it's entirely plausible that bosch told them to avoid and, um, 'hostiles'.
I need to check the dialogue for that mission, though - specifically how much contact the Shivans had with the Trinity prior. Or maybe the Shivans left it alive as bait.
Well, the cutscene never did make it into the game, and I admit I didn't consult my copy of the reference bible when constructing my theory, but it may have been just an attempt to emphasize the Shivan's superiority over us. Or it may just have been filler, intended to acquaint the player with the realities of life in the FS universe. Impossible to say, open to interpretation.
Yup. I find it intriguing.
I don't deny the Shivans might have a lot to do with subspace, might even have been born/created there, but as for the Knossos, that's just good tactics. The GTVA tries to secure it too, after all.
True; I still think it's interesting the Shivans are literally swarming around the 3 locations with a Knossos.
Of course, here's another idea[/i]; what if all along the Shivans needed to supernova Capella - but they couldn't so long as the Knossos' were inactive (say the Sath can't travel through unstable nodes like the smaller ships). Maybe that's how the Ancients provoked them or came to their attention, and maybe the Ancients' last act was to shutoff said node. Possibly even trapping a section of the Shivan fleet that destroyed the Ancients in GTVA space....
Ehh...I'm not buying that one. First, because there's no evidence for the Riveria being such a place. Second, because after entering through the back door in Ross 128, the first places the Shivans hit were systems that were on the front line of the Terran-Vasudan War. Then they headed for Vasuda Prime, pasted that, and went for Earth.
True. Albeit IIRC the Shivans came from everywhere - Ikeya in particular I remember. What we know about Rivera is just about sod all; they did test weapons and shielding there, and we know that the military finances subspace research, so it's possible they did it at Riviera.
That's true. BUT in FS1, you only see THREE Shivan destroyers (SD Lucifer, SD Eva, and the Demon that intercepted the GTD Bastion when it was en route to Delta Serpentis.) and only hear about two before the fact (SD Lucifer and SD Eva).
Er...yes? To clarify, I meant the Ancients war with the Shivans. I was really just pointing out that it was in all likelihood much, much vaster than the wars with the GTVA... and also it explains how a species advanced enough to build a Knossos would have lost to the fleet the GTVA overcame; it wasn't that fleet but a far larger one.
The Ancients, if they had been left alone, would have expanded again, killed more civilizations, and the Shivans would have had to come back eventually. There would not have been a lasting peace. The Ancients would not learn, could not learn, because they still had no reason to be peaceful towards anyone that they encountered: they had conquered everybody, then got their butts kicked by the Shivans.
Well, they had - taking the monologues alone, they realised they had 'sinned', and sought to evade further punishment by relocating to their home system. Fear is a powerful motivation... had the Shivans wanted to merely contain and pacify the Ancients, it would have been easy for them... but they obliterated them mercilessly.
The Terran-Vasudan alliance is a different case. They have learned the value of peace with other cultures. They have learned tolerance from fighting the Shivans alongside each other. When the GTVA encounters another civilization aside from the Shivans, it is far more likely to extend the hand of friendship then to attack. They have several good reasons for this: among the foremost is that they can use all the allies they can get if the Shivans come back. Another is that every time there has been a major conflict, the Shivans have shown up and caused mass destruction.
I simply don't like the idea of Shivans being 'peacemakers.... I'm not sure why the Shivans waited 14 years to show up if that's all they're interested in.
[/B]
Well, bear in mind I'm just picking little holes & chucking ideas rather than espousing a coherent theory (I have one, but it's mine alone and relies on some...other stuff).
Anyways, comments in red.
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first and foremost ,we have to remember this:
the name 'FREESPACE' was what scientists called subspace when they first discovered it. the title of the game is also FREESPACE. games are usually named after the focus of the game. ie halo is SET on halo, homeworld is about the QUEST for the homeworld, the outforce (an old RTS game) is about an 'outforce' (kinda like a big scout party), and FREESPACE must be about FREESPACE, or subspace. (pardon the bold, its just an attention-getter :p )
so, freespace is indeed about subspace. SOMETHING important happened, is happening, or did happen in subspace, which is what FS1&2 are chronicaling (sp?).
i think this:
the shivans have been watching us for quite some time. probably theyve observed us throughout our evolutioin (NOTE: this is NOT going to turn into a debate about creationism vs. evolutionism) and the shivans were appaled.
they figured we were an inferior race, and that if we were allowed to spread, we would destroy the universe in some way. worse, we would destroy subspace, which (educated guessing here...) would ahnialate not only the universe but EVERYTHING (i know how weird that sounds, but you know what i mean :p what if theres more than 1 universe or something?) so they estimated our strength and tried to destroy our homeworld, which would REALLY screw us over, basically.
then, whe it was destroyed, the lucifer would signal back to the main fleet (prollly at that time some sathani) and they would come in for the kill. but we stopped them luckily (just barely...) and it cost us a lot. the shivans essentially won.
then, they waited for a while, building soem more juggernoughts and God-knows what else (thats why i think that the Gigas isnt so far-fetched as most people think. however, the EA superjugg is out of line) for a second assault.
this time, they destroyed what was the SECOND most populated place they could find.
however, they probably thought that we were building a fleet of juggs as well, so they decided to cut us off for now and build up their fleet to totally decimate the terran and vasudan races once and for all! (can yo usee a campaign forming here? :devil: hmm..*cough*FS3*cough*?)
remember what was said about them how they will send something tougher each time? logically, the next ship will be somewhat unstoppable. the GTVA better get their act together, or die. :nervous:
or, it could be somewhat less impressive, like the shivans are like moths and subspace nodes are like lamps :p but i dont like that theory :)
*sigh* all this talk of the shivan enigma is making me pine away for FS3... :(
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*blinks*
*has two words*
Anthropromorphic Fallacy!
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You know, I'm going to have to take exception to that.
You assume it is a fallacy. Yet, on the other hand, is it? We got the way we are for some reason. Humans think the way they do because it provides some concrete biological advantage. Otherwise we would think differently, because differently would offer some concrete biological advantage.
We evolved into our current form because it was a good one, for crying out loud. To automatically assume that other species will be vastly different from us is a fallacy in and of itself.
And also, I would point out that the other races of Freespace are decidely anthropomorphic, so we have a good streak going here.
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All i mean, is that you can't assume anything... Not reactions, not motives, and certianly not thought proscesses...
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i think the human body sucks >.< its a ok design, but its so fragile, and inefficient... bleh...
i wanna be either a shivan or a cyborg :)
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I think the Shivans are more of a experiment, I think they were created for war, using violent ways to conbine flesh and robotics. They then turned and destroyed whoever created them and started destroying whatever came that looked like it had the Tech to make war. That would explain how they could build so many ships and have such powerful weapons.
Just a thought.:)
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old idea, but i still like it :)
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Yeah, basicly the same Idea of bad people creating robots for war and end up dead instead.:p Stay away from robots mankind. :lol:
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One thing is sure.........the Shivans have a MASSIVE FLEET...
then...why bothering sending scoutin parties and stuff when you can send an entire Battle Group with Hundreds of Sathanas...
...this might mean that they are fighting with a forth race...which is likely superior to the Shivans...
...Why opening a second front if you are fighting a total war with another civilization... ... ... May be the shivans are afraid that we get in contact with the Forth Civilization........
.............WANNA KNOW MORE???...wait until the HomeWorlds Campaign is ready and you'll see...
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The Shivan Manifesto says it all. It does agree that the Shivans we all know as being a weapon of war, constructed for nothing less than grinding their enemies into oblivion. It also states why the Shivans have come and gone throughout history. For those of you who haven't read it yet, do so.
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Someone agrees with me? Holy crap, are we logging this thread?
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Actually, I agree with you on most of your points too. (Still iffy on the energy beings until somebody figures out how such a creature could work.)
I just whipped this other thing out in my spare time 'cuz I was bored.
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While it's being discussed i'd like to point out a slight "half error" in the shivan manifesto (half cause you said you only guessed it)
The end cutscene for FS1 shows that jump nodes need not be near the edges of the system, the sol-delta serpentis jump node lead right to an area nearby earth.
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Also jump nodes can be clustered together, there's an FS1 mission with three nodes only a few kilometers (if that) apart.
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Would be cool is the Shivans were made by the Ancients. Then the Shivans killed them. Muhahahahaha.
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I used to go with the 'war with other superrace' type explanation (as seen in Reci), but I think it's a bit....dull, now.
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Say, does anyone know is Shivans actually breathe (not oxigen, but anything at all)?
Yes, I know one animation showed them in vacuum, but that doesn't have to mean they don't breathe, they just might be able to hold their breat a looong time. For instance, dolphins breathe, yet can stay underwater for at least half an hour.
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I like what ngtm1r had to say...there's only one little thing. If the Shivans were looking to make peace, why'd they blow up Capella? If they didn't want the death to go on, why didn't they make Gamma Draconis go super nova? It would have had the same effects: cut off the GTVA from the nebula and display the awesome firepower of the Sathanas fleet.
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i think they had a glass or plastic visor over their faces.
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hmmm...maybe not.
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cutscenes/hal0126.jpg)
however, there appears to be some yellow haze on the floor, which would indicate there being an atmosphere.
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hey.........is there somewhere some AVI version of FS1 cutscenes???? I would love to see them...
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Originally posted by Carl
hmmm...maybe not.
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/cutscenes/hal0126.jpg)
however, there appears to be some yellow haze on the floor, which would indicate there being an atmosphere.
The fact the Marine's gear doesn't have anything covering his eyes would both absolutely prove there is an atmosphere, and also indicate that the atmosphere, while perhaps not breathable, is not immeditately dangerous to humans with their own oxygen supply. It might even be breathable.
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Hmm, has [V] ever said anything official about shivans evolving in space? because if not this is preety good evidence to the contrary.
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There is some speculation that the Shivans involved in a zero-gee environment, but that's not necessarily the same thing as evolving in a vacuum. (Although how you could have zero-gee and not vacuum, short of artifical spacecraft, I don't know...)
More to the point, since the Shivans we see are cybernetically enhanced, that really doesn't prove anything. They could have just added the parts that give the impression of having evolved in zero gravity. They can probably withstand vacuum because of the cybernetic enhancements as well.
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The shivans are not cyberneticaly enhanced.
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Originally posted by willy_principal
hey.........is there somewhere some AVI version of FS1 cutscenes???? I would love to see them...
http://oregonstate.edu/~plankerj/FS1movies/
Thank Kosh for the webspace.
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Hi, just to point something about this "new" idea :
http://fragfiles.org/~hlstory//expandedinfo.htm
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I don't buy that crap about the Lucifer Fleet=Scouting Fleet. If this is true then why the hell does the Lucifer have an invulnerable shield but none of the ships in FS2 do?
Why do Sath fleet ships have beams but Lucy Fleet ships don't.
Why do Lucy Fleet ships have scorpions but Sath Fleet ships don't!
Scouting wave!?!?
I think the Lucifer Fleet was separated from the main Shivan Fleet Millenia ago and they both haappened to come across the GTVA.
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Originally posted by FireCrack
The shivans are not cyberneticaly enhanced.
Check your tech room.
"Their insect-like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiogonmy, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology."
Now, would you care to repeat that statement, FireCrack?
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Check your tech room.
"Their insect-like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiogonmy, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology."
Now, would you care to repeat that statement, FireCrack?
Volition ahs said officialy that they are not cybernetialy enhanced and what we are seeing is the real shivans body. What is in the tech room is what the GTVA thinks.
Now, would you care to repeat that statement, ngtm1r?
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Yes, I would. Volition said that what we see in "Hallfight" is not a suit, like in ID4, or a Shivan robot.
That does not mean they are not cybernetically enhanced. If anything, it increases the likelyhood, since cybernetics are by definition a part of one's body.
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Originally posted by FireCrack
Volition ahs said officialy that they are not cybernetialy enhanced and what we are seeing is the real shivans body. What is in the tech room is what the GTVA thinks.
Now, would you care to repeat that statement, ngtm1r?
Actually IIRC what [V] said was that what we saw in Hall Fight were the real shivans. Not their pets, not battlesuits and not cyborgs they control.
AFAIK [V] never said that the Shivans themselves weren't cyborgs.
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oh, well i guess my definition of cyborg was a bit fuzzy.
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So..just for the sake of resoning... if I make a mission in which a crew of a Shivan ship is incapacitated by a gas of some sorts...that would be plausable???
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Originally posted by High Max
Yes, scouting wave and I can say this for a few reasons. One, I thought it said in the back of the FS2 box that the Shivans of the Great War were only a scouting party (says something like, "after 32 years of no contact with their scouting party, the Shivans grow suspicious).
Two, The reason that the sathanas's don't have shields is probably because beam weaponry can penetrate shields and they feel that Sathanas's have sufficient armor and weaponry, thus they feel that the Sathanas's don't need shields because of the high armor, high weaponry, and high number of Sathanas's.
When you say that the Sathanas fleet has beams and the Lucifer fleet doesn't, that should reinforce the fact that it was a scouting party because a scouting party isn't meant to have as good as weaponry as the main fleet (scouting party, not task force or offensive force).
Maybe the rest of the scorpions are deep in Shivan space or perhaps the Shivans scrapped them all because they weren't good enough fighters but most likely, the Lucifer fleet had the only Scorpions that were ever made and the Shivans don't have them as part of the main fleet. Remember, it says in the tech database that Scorpions appear to be some form of Shivan scouting fighter. I also believe that Shantan bombers are a scouting bomber because of it's weak specs.
Would a scouting force annihilate planets? If the Sath had a Lucifer-esque shield the Bombers wouldn't have been able to destroy its turrets and it would have beat the Living **** out of the Colossus.
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But, also remember, beams go thru shields. So what would be the point in shielding a Sath, The Lucifer maybe had shields because we didn't have Beams weapons to stop it.
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Originally posted by High Max
I was able to destroy all 4 forward turrets and the 2 flak guns before the Sathanas departed. I wonder how many other people were able to complete all the objectives in that FS2 mission. I forgot the name of that mission but it was right before the mission, "High Noon".
the mission was 'Bearbaiting'
And i destroyed all 4 sath beams, forward flak, beleth beams, and beleth
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Well you know the lucifer has an invincible shield so (theroedically) it could hold out against beams. Even though the lucifer was just set to "indestructable".
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it was set to "invincible"...(in the misc panel)
Beams do not damage shields, they pierce them, pass tru them directly...so the Lucifer can be destroyed by beam weapons only...
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well yeah i guess, but for some reason i view the lucifer's shield system as being unique. but i doesnt really matter.
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unique shields............i don't think so............the usual shields.........but the Lucifer haves 5~6 (how many?, can't remember) reactors to power the shields, that's why they are so strong...
normal shivan vessels have 1 reactor to power the ship...
the Lucifer haves several of them because it needs to power a gigantic shield...
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oh i see, so the game engine is programmed to have beams pierce shields no matter how strong they are?
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YES!
when i'm hit by the AAA's........my shield is intact, but my hull is completely trashed.......
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oh i get it now. Could there be a way to have beams not pierce shields. I mean i remeber seeing a weapon that had a "pierce shields" tag on it. If beams have this tag could we just remove it, or is it "hardcoded".
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hmmm...you must be wearing some "unique-shield color" glasses when you play FS1 with the Lucifer around....(that was a really bad joke, i think)
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wut the???? umm im talking about FS2.
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Simply tick the -nobeampierce option in the FS2_Open launcher.
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Didn't V also say (somewhere...Icefire would know, he knows everything Volition have ever said anywhere, ever - or at least it sometimes seems that way) that the Lucifer was only invulnerable to FS1 era weapons?
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i wouldnt have a clue. Icefire, we need some help here
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Didn't V also say (somewhere...Icefire would know, he knows everything Volition have ever said anywhere, ever - or at least it sometimes seems that way) that the Lucifer was only invulnerable to FS1 era weapons?
so shooting at it with prometheus s would not damage it whereas hl-7 would am i rite durrrrrrrr
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Originally posted by willy_principal
YES!
when i'm hit by the AAA's........my shield is intact, but my hull is completely trashed.......
Funny, almost teh exact opposite happens to me
i.e. My shield goes down but my hull stays intact until the second hit.