Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on December 06, 2004, 03:01:07 pm
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Honestly, all I see nowadays is stuff about how bad we're boned, how the world's going down the drain, etc.
Now does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this whole damn mess?
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Starting to get a real education?
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won't help
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Simply knowing what is wrong will not change it. As far as America is concerned, it is truly in the hands of Americans, just as we are all, if not responsible, then at least held accountable for our own countries actions.
What to do? Difficult to say, even elections are no longer appearing to be reliable. The thing is we are all waiting for the 'other guy'. We say 'If thousands of people marched on Downing Street, I'd join them', but I'm under no illusions that I'd be the first person to march on it, I'd just look like a prat if no-one else showed up ;)
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Senseless violence comrade, its the only way.
Barring that, try getting on Oprah to preach your message.
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Or get some media power on your side...
The best way to beat a multibillion business is to bring a bigger one...
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Originally posted by Flipside
Difficult to say, even elections are no longer appearing to be reliable.
you said it (http://rawstory.com/images/pdfs/CC_Affidavit_120604.pdf) (yes that is a signed affidavit under pain of purgery)
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Now does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this whole damn mess?
There is no fix, We have just wait where this whole Situiton is going
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Bad Religion
What Can you do
So you waste another day getting older and gray in the head,
And you're hearing lots of stories 'bout the happy times you have ahead.
There are other folks in power so you kick back and get farther behind,
And although the world rotates itself the only thing you twist is your mind.
You see, the world's falling apart at the rifts,
And surprisingly, the leaders can't make any sense of it.
You mean nothing to the world, we're all someone else's fool,
But oh, what can you do?
"Yeah you waste your time with losers if you get stuck in a rock-n-roll band."
Do you find it more rewarding to compete with morons throughout this land?
They seem to be in power so I'll kick back and get farther behind.
And I watch them as they **** up every good thing on this earth
with their "minds."
You see, the world's falling apart at the rifts,
And surprisingly, the leaders can't make any sense of it.
You mean nothing to the world, we're all someone else's fool,
But oh, what can you do?
Yeah you waste another day getting older and gray in the head,
And we're hearing lots of stories 'bout the happy times we have ahead.
The morons are in power so we kick back and get farther behind,
And we watch them as they **** up every good thing on this earth
with their "minds."
You see, the world's falling apart at the rifts,
And surprisingly, the leaders can't make any sense of it.
We mean nothing to the world, we're all someone else's fool,
But oh, what can you do?
I said, oh, what can you do?
(Go!)
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You could shoot everyone who doesnt agree with you, that would solve many problems. Though you would be a bit lonely in the end.
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The thing is HIG, if the situation is going anywhere, it's because we are taking it there. There is a fix, but it would take such a massive leap in compassion, understanding and tolerance that we would have to start trying to achieve a Utopian society, and no-one wants that because then we'd have no one to stamp on.
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i recommend you all read what i linked to in my last post
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(http://www.maddox.xmission.com/mimes1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Kazan
you said it (http://rawstory.com/images/pdfs/CC_Affidavit_120604.pdf) (yes that is a signed affidavit under pain of purgery)
Link times out for me.
Um, it's a tough question, isn't it? It's easy to find problems, but how to fix them is the toughie.
Some stuff, admittedly, is obvious; need a complete ban and removal of nuclear weapons, strengthen the UN (and ensure it is kept fair & democractic) so as to better act against illegal wars and breaches of human rights, bring in some proper environmental legislation (particularly for the tertiary economies; the 3rd worlds relatively slower development means it'll take time to get past polluting technologies), and convince every nation to spend its defence budget on solving the ills of humanity.
Of course, such charity is so unlikely it'll either take a paradigm shift of human nature or massive alien invasion to make it happen.
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Mao tse Tsung said change must come at the barrel of a gun.
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i'll have to mirror the pdf - it's probably getting clusterfücked by d08, du, cgcs and fark
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Originally posted by Gank
Mao tse Tsung said change must come at the barrel of a gun.
Didn't he die after getting syphillis from shagging too many concubines?
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I guess change came through the barrel of his gun. :lol:
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:lol:
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Originally posted by Gank
Mao tse Tsung said change must come at the barrel of a gun.
Mao said that POWER comes from the barrel of a gun. And Mao had a thing for 12-year-old virgins...
Personally, I think we should all stand in a big circle, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya... ;)
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mirrored http://www.democrats08.com/media/CC_Affidavit_120604.pdf
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Meh, heard it in some song.
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Presumably you've seen this stuff Kaz:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm
And if I get you right, thats affadavid is somebody admitting to rigging the 2001 elections?
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i rarely go to CD because of the CGCD forums - i am on very hostile terms with their admins (the ex-kerry-forum admins) because they're powertripping
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erg cgcs forums
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I'd love to see that argument, :lol:.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Honestly, all I see nowadays is stuff about how bad we're boned, how the world's going down the drain, etc.
Now does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this whole damn mess?
If we knew...we'd be trying to do something to fix the situation.
At the moment, we're along for the ride with everyone else. Hopefully my/our generation, when it gets into power (in 25-30 years) will remember all of this stuff thats going down and try and fix it. Of course thats very optimistic of me :)
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Well, it'll be my lots turn first, about another 5 years and my generation should probably start making a more front-row appearance in the politcal field (most politicians don't come to notice tell they are around 35-40). I have hopes....
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Honestly, all I see nowadays is stuff about how bad we're boned, how the world's going down the drain, etc.
Now does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this whole damn mess?
It's the UN that's made this mess. It's they who should clean it up.
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Originally posted by JR2000Z
It's the UN that's made this mess. It's they who should clean it up.
It's the countries who go ahead regardless that actually caused the mess. The UNs failed in being able to 'keep the leash' on the big boys of international politics.
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I love how people think that the state of the world can be attributed to one organization.
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Kick Libya, Iran, China, etc. out of the UN, or at least keep them off commitees they have no place being on, like the Human Rights Commitee. That'd be a good start.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
[B***ick Libya, Iran, China, etc. out of the UN, or at least keep them off commitees they have no place being on, like the Human Rights Commitee. That'd be a good start. [/B]
Because chucking them out of a negotiation forum will obviously encourage them to listen to the nations no longer talking to them?
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
[B***ick Libya, Iran, China, etc. out of the UN, or at least keep them off commitees they have no place being on, like the Human Rights Commitee. That'd be a good start. [/B]
Kick the US out while they're at it, they're human rights record is starting to look like something you'd see in the middle east.
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gank: indeed
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Originally posted by Ford Prefect
(http://www.maddox.xmission.com/mimes1.jpg)
ill see you that and raise:
(http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.com/nukeart2.jpg)
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Originally posted by Gank
Kick the US out while they're at it, they're human rights record is starting to look like something you'd see in the middle east.
Amusing, since we started the concept. And your comparison cannot and will not hold water.
Go ahead. Try and prove me wrong.
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It was either the US or Jesus. I forget who.
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The term "human rights" was coined by Jimmy Carter, I believe.
If not, he was the one who got world attention paid to them as such.
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Okay. I'm going to coin a word-- "gubblebubble," and it's going to mean shooting someone in the head. I have just invented the concept of shooting someone in the head.
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ngtm1r, Human Rights was around as a concept for Years before the US existed, sorry, but that's a completely ridiculous comment, and quite frightening that you believe as such. As I said earlier, Atlanteans and Pharohs......
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Originally posted by Gank
Kick the US out while they're at it, they're human rights record is starting to look like something you'd see in the middle east.
This is amusing because the US funds most of the UN and the meeting hall is on sovereign US soil and without US troops the UN doesn't have enough teeth to back up it's bark.
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Well, actually, iirc the US hasn't paid a penny to the UN for years anyway ;)
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yeah... we've reneged on our dues for around 6+ years
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Link times out for me.
Um, it's a tough question, isn't it? It's easy to find problems, but how to fix them is the toughie.
Some stuff, admittedly, is obvious; need a complete ban and removal of nuclear weapons, strengthen the UN (and ensure it is kept fair & democractic) so as to better act against illegal wars and breaches of human rights, bring in some proper environmental legislation (particularly for the tertiary economies; the 3rd worlds relatively slower development means it'll take time to get past polluting technologies), and convince every nation to spend its defence budget on solving the ills of humanity.
Of course, such charity is so unlikely it'll either take a paradigm shift of human nature or massive alien invasion to make it happen.
Agreed. People are bastards. As long as that's true, there'll always be trouble...
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I believe the US is $1.3 billion in arrears to the UN.
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change is a fallacy! the human race is going through the same cycles over and over again! its been doing it for millinea! the only way to permanently end human suffering is do destroy humanity! it is imposible to fix things because we are each stuck within the constraints of our limited minds! we repeat the same worrds over and over in order to understand eachothers reality and soon become lost in the madness! we must sentacen our race to the voidance of nuclear haulocaust! A new race shal be forged in the nuclear fires of a man made hell! ...and it is they who shal look back and see a reality of medness and chaos and perhaps they will learn to save thime selves from our mistkes! for if they fail they shall suffer our fate! Now bring fourth the fires!
ok having said that i will leave you with the lyrics to dimmu borgir's Blessings upon The Throne of Tyranny
Infected by invalid behaviour
While capturing the stench of divine putrefaction
Confess to slavery for the world saviour
Give praise and inhale the corruption
The Enfeebled provides the fool
The Disabled provides the tool
The Apathetic demands the affection
To those suffering from their own satisfaction
Devour in self-deceit, conjure the righteous plague
Testify today´s contradiction, glorify tomorrows deed
Inconceivable moral priest, hide in preferable dress
Invite to another pleasure feast, the concealment of joyful laughter
The decrepit innocence of your correctness and well-chosen
Elicits the source of the need for immediate forgiveness
Submit to no grace but the spiteful of your disease
Apply to join the unlimited disgrace and a settlement in the skies
And turn the confusion among your children into self-stimulation
The incarnation of your prostitution, the true Evil in disguise
With the ignorance from your cross as the witness
The truth of your tragedy make you justice
In your mirror the high spirit of kindness
Looks like malice
Condemnation of life by the living dead
What a premature judgement, contradiction to the core
How unfortunate I am, cursed to spend time on a battle already won
The shame that will be guarding your grave says it all
Retreat to the crypt and make it worthwhile
Recall my sins furthermore but still be watching yours with a smile
:D
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You all worry too much...
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Let us be happy while we're still young
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... and be raped as we grows...
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*goth mode*
we are already raped at conception. anyone who creates life creates suffering.
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If there's one thing that I learned when I was a child
It's to take a hiding
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Everyone thinks they can change the world, but the reality is that the world changes them....
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indeed. the problem is that we give all the power to people who dont have to struggle to survive. name a world leader that lives on less than a dollar a day. its sad that the price of a single 200 million dollar f-22 fighter plane could feed americas homeless for quite some time. i fail to see why we even need f-22 fighters, all are current conflicts are ground based and can be faught with an 8 million dollar a-10 warthog. rich people never learn to pinch a penny, hence government spending. but that is just one of many many many problems
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Better yet, cut the military budget by half and wipe out Third-world debt.
Nobody needs F22s. No potential aggressor has the air power to chellenge any Western country with Cold War-era technology (F15s, Tornados, Mirages etc), let alone F22s or EFA Typhoons. They're a shocking waste of money.
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military spending is the most wasteful spending out there
we could be getting a lot more "bang for our buck" - but if you dare cut defense spending you're "OMG! YOU'RE WEAKENING THE MILITARY!!!!!!!1111111one11111!!!!!!!eleven111111!!!!!!"
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hehe, eleven.
How about creating art, games, and music which promotes such things.
Its all todo with human behaviour.
Take the sixties for example. All the hippies etc, promoting love and peace at music conserts etc.
Take todays, and music is about pain, suffering, etc.
What the kids of today are doing for fun, reflect on what they will be doing as adults...
I'm sad to say that games may enter the formula there as well. Even I admit, that my favourite games are to do with war and conflicts. While some might end with peace and love, its not what your spreading with the your gun toting about in the game.
Its all about human behaviour... It's origins, its evolution, and its reflections...
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Hardly surprising. Americans are kept so ****-scared of everyone through the media that they think everyone's out to get them. Which means that A: the government can do whatever they want if they say it's "to protect American Freedoms(TM)! Yeah! U-S-A! U-S-A! Woooo!!" which whips people up into another frenzy, and B: they can keep handing out fat contracts to contractors to build even more horrible and dangerous weapons (see the new micro-nukes for a good example).
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Originally posted by Grug
hehe, eleven.
How about creating art, games, and music which promotes such things.
Its all todo with human behaviour.
Take the sixties for example. All the hippies etc, promoting love and peace at music conserts etc.
Take todays, and music is about pain, suffering, etc.
Some (http://www.cosmicroughriders.com/) music isn't.
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I have to say I put my mouseover the link, and seeing it in my status bar as "www.cosmicroughriders.com" I didn't even bother. :p
America is a nation of fear. But they've always been arrogant and pridefull as well which is the dangerous mix.
But I guess everyone finds flaws in their governments.
That's why I like my paranoia idea. That the world is run by one group of individuals albeit powerfull men, aliens or worse woman. (:p)
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Originally posted by Grug
I have to say I put my mouseover the link, and seeing it in my status bar as "www.cosmicroughriders.com" I didn't even bother. :p
*raises eyebrow*
Dare I ask why?
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I don't know why, but "ROUGH RIDERS" doesn't really appeal to my tastes...
btw rofl @ "goth mode" and the following comment.
EDIT: went to the site anyway. What are they? Neo-Hippies?
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Originally posted by Grug
I don't know why, but "ROUGH RIDERS" doesn't really appeal to my tastes...
btw rofl @ "goth mode" and the following comment.
EDIT: went to the site anyway. What are they? Neo-Hippies?
An astonishingly cheery Scottish band with a sort of psuedo-Beach Boys / West Coast sound. The most, um, 'warming' band I could think of offhand.
A friend of mine knew the former lead singer (Daniel Wylie), hactually.
EDIt; oh, and they're farking brilliant listening for summer & Saturday afternoons.
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Hmm, I'll take your word for it.
I wasn't much a fan of the beach boys... :s
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Well, note the 'pseudo'......
Ach, it's up to you what you like etc etc. I just pick up songs on eMule or Kazaa lite and buy the album if they're good enough anyways.
Point is, not all bands are constantly miserable; just the **** ones are.
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Well, point taken, but some of the most adored bands and most popular are miserable.
Personally I like Jet, and U2 flavoured with some other older stuff like Black Sabbath (which is hardly peace promoting)... :)
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Originally posted by Grug
Well, point taken, but some of the most adored bands and most popular are miserable.
Personally I like Jet, and U2 flavoured with some other older stuff like Black Sabbath (which is hardly peace promoting)... :)
Ah, but most adored and popular doesn't always mean 'good' :D
'sides which, the good bands - the talented ones - aren't always miserable. Take the Verve, for example (arguably the best band of the last decade IMO); can follow up 'The Drugs don't Work' (effectively the love song of a doomed addict), with 'Lucky Man' (which was a really, um, 'uplifting' song).
'tis all about variety, after all. U2 are a perfect example... like 'With or Without You' versus that one whos name I forgot where the video had them on a runway from the 2nd last album.
And IIRC Jets' second single was a sort of more ballady thing.
So if a band is always miserable, then they must be ****e.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Amusing, since we started the concept. And your comparison cannot and will not hold water.
Go ahead. Try and prove me wrong.
Done.
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11614846%5E1702,00.html
Quite easy too, guess you aint really following the news anymore.
As for you starting the concept, LOL, you'll be telling us you invented democracy and electricty next.
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What can we do? Nothing, nothing that would make a difference. In my opinion humanity is pretty f***** up beyond recognition. But not to sound too negative, if people would be willing to take that thumb out their asses and actually TRY to do something, instead of just whining, maybe something could be accomplished. So, onto the second revolution, brothers! :D
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youd be supprised how common revolutions are and they havent changed much.
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I think what we really ought to get working on is permanantly colonizing space so that if Earth gets pwned, at least we won't die out.
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Too easy...
Learn to pay your mistakes instead of trying to flee from them.
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Too judgemental. Learn to avoid the consequences of your mistakes instead of paying for them. :)
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Irresponsible :p
Learn to avoid mistakes instead of avoiding consequences ;)
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How about just doing the right thing? Even if it's not the most cost-effective thing?
I say we should colonize Mars, just to make sure that we won't die out as a species.
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How about using Occam's razor principle?
It would be simpler to take out all WMD than colonize Mars
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Irresponsible
Learn to avoid mistakes instead of avoiding consequences
Unrealistic, etc. etc. My point is, why should we stay here and allow ourselves to become extinct if we don't have to? To punish ourselves for killing the whales? Boo-hoo. If we're going to die, I don't really care about the moral question of what we did to the planet.
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While I would prefer to look at it in less sterile terms, I'm gonna agree with Ford.
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While we discuss the thing i would rather work on preventing it :)
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To go slightly off topic, or rather back to posting related songs:
The sparks of the tempest rage a hundred years on
The voice of the dreamer screams, the cause of the pawn
The King and the Queen are gone, each piece is the same
The difference between us is a part of the game
Darkness is spreading like a spot on the sun
The dead are the living in the age of the gun
While everyone clamors for the justice they seek
The word is corrupted and the strong take the weak
They mold you and shape you, so watch what you do
The sparks of the tempest are burnin' you through
Spreading like wildfire, fallin' like rain
Though they may promise, they only bring pain
The future is managed, and your freedom's a joke
You don't know the difference as you put on the yoke
The less that you know the more you fall into place
A cog in the wheel, there is no soul in your face
Run for the cover, Millennium's here
Bearing the standard of confusion and fear
Spreading like wildfire, fallin' like rain
Though they may promise, they only bring pain
Blood in the sand, a cry in the street
Now the cycle is nearly complete
Ten thousand years, and nothing was learned
No turning back, now the wheel has turned
Big Brother is watching and he likes what he sees
A world for the taking, when he's ready to squeeze
The King and the Queen are gone, each piece is the same
The difference between us is a part of the game
Soothsayer saying now tell me no lies
What is this madness that is filling the skies
Spreading like wildfire, fallin' like rain
Though they may promise, they only bring pain
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Originally posted by Zarax
While we discuss the thing i would rather work on preventing it :)
The sad fact is that we're getting there pretty fast, and no one who has any power is trying to prevent it :(
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I don't think so.
Someone is trying, but while their individual power is quite great it's still not enough to change alone the whole behaviour.
It's just sad that things such as the first decent malaria vaccine had to wait Bill Gates charity funds to be developed...
Market economy might have won the cold war but we pretty much lost our ethical values in the process...
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I can not take this anymore.
I am going to quote a book here, its a long one and I need to type it. I'm not happy about it-but someone must end this, before it expands.
'I don't believe in argument'
'You don't? S**t, and I thought I was the cynical one.'
'It's not cynisim, I just think people over-value argument because they like to hear themselves talk. It's comferting I suppose. Most people are not prepared to have thier minds changed, and I think that in thier hearts they know that other people are just the same, and one of the reasons people become angry when they argue uts that they realise just that, as they trot out thier excuses.'
[other dude interupts]
'Yes, excuses, I strongle suspect the things people believe in are usually what they insticntlivly feel is right' the excuses, the justification, the things you're supposed to argue about, come late. They're the least important part of the belief. That's why you can destroy them, win an argument, prove the other person wrong, and still believe what they did in the first place.'
'So what does one do instead proffesor?'
'Agree to disagree. Or fight.'
'FIGHT?'
'what else is left?'
Negotiat?'
'Negotiation is the way to come to a conclusion; it's the type of conclusion I'm talking about.'
Severly annotated, but I think you get my message, oh and guess the author.
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"I cannot take this anymore," stated Fergus. He proceeded to cite a quotation pertinent to his assertion.
"Then why do you read it?" asked Ford Prefect, with great puzzlement.
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So?
Found a party or get to control an existing one.
Make your view the leading one (not by imposing it but by showing with facts that you are right).
Acquire power and then use it.
Impossible?
Nothing is.
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Heh heh. Nothing, you say? I've got plenty of literary quotes of my own about that one. (The theme of the human spirit being crushed by overwhelming adversity is a favorite of mine.)
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Thing is, planets are far too unstable, unpredicatble and limited in resources for any species that wants to exist more than a few million years. Dinosaurs got away with it because they hit a long period between Ice Ages/Comet impacts etc. Scientists are becoming increasingly aware that the length of time that Dinosaurs existed was the exception rather than the rule.
To be honest, our best chance for survival is not to stay here. Physics says the Earth probably only has about a billion years left in the Solar system before Mercury and Venus swap orbits and screw up the entire inner-planet system, possibly throwing Venus or Earth out of the Solar System in the process.
So, to be honest, we are headed there are some point or another whether we like it or not, so the sooner we start preparing for it, the better.
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I don't quote.
I act.
If you truly want it and invest enough time and energy on it you can talk with even the most powerful people in the world within ten years.
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Flipside, if you care about what might happen in a few million years you're welcome...
Differently from dinosaurs we can predict events such as asteroids and develop the means to avoid them...
But that's on a quite long term...
Our current civilization won't last more than a couple of centuries unless we get massive technological breakthroughs on resource management or change quite deeply our lifestyle.
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I don't quote.
I act.
If you truly want it and invest enough time and energy on it you can talk with even the most powerful people in the world within ten years.
And I applaud you for having the conviction to do that. But I'm no activist, just an artist with my head in the clouds and too existential to have much regard for even my own opinions.
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How do we know that dinosaurs couldn't?
We can only just barely find hints of human civilisation that are 10,000 years old, what's going to be left after 65 million years. If the human race died out today, in 65 million years, even satellites would have fallen out of orbit, and weather would have erased practically every trace that we ever existed.
We assume all dinosaurs were stupid, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the larger brained dinosaurs weren't capable of intelligence, it's only our own arrogance in believing we are 'special' that stops us from even accepting the possiblity.
And yes, I do care what happens in a billion years time, because that is merely the final chapter, theres a hell of a lot of unpleasant things going to happen before that. 800 Million years ago, 97% of ALL life on Earth was wiped out, by the ecology changing. It wasn't the first, nor will it be the last time such a thing will happen.
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tell my, how many dinosours are still suffering?
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Well, crocs get quite a beating..
Birds get shot...
Kimono lizards etc get shot on sight in some countries...
Yes, they are all related to Dino's ;)
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Kimono lizards etc get shot on sight in some countries...
They also eat children, from what I've read.
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Well, they have been known to, they are viscious bastards, but the real problem is their bite. Kimono saliva contains over 200 kinds of harmful bacteria, from blood diseases to skin diseases, it's their weapon. So someone who gets bitten by one of those things is in big trouble.
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Originally posted by Flipside
How do we know that dinosaurs couldn't?
We can only just barely find hints of human civilisation that are 10,000 years old, what's going to be left after 65 million years. If the human race died out today, in 65 million years, even satellites would have fallen out of orbit, and weather would have erased practically every trace that we ever existed.
We assume all dinosaurs were stupid, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the larger brained dinosaurs weren't capable of intelligence, it's only our own arrogance in believing we are 'special' that stops us from even accepting the possiblity.
And yes, I do care what happens in a billion years time, because that is merely the final chapter, theres a hell of a lot of unpleasant things going to happen before that. 800 Million years ago, 97% of ALL life on Earth was wiped out, by the ecology changing. It wasn't the first, nor will it be the last time such a thing will happen.
Sorry Flip, but my vision is a bit shorter than yours and i tend to care only about what we call Homo Sapiens, not what will come in some hundred millennias.
We are humans, so our solutions will spawn in centuries.
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Indeed, but we're talking about learning from the past here, we know that the stable periods of Earths ecology are pretty short. The next Ice Age is, allegedly, not too far away, and that has been strengthened by this years visit to the North Pole by ecologists. How was it strengthened? They couldn't find it it had melted.
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Are you sure?
Do you know how much it takes to melt the WHOLE northern ice cap?
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Yes, a raise of about 6 degrees celsius in standard world temperature. It has risen about 5 since we started recording. It's quite scary really. Though it could be that our lack on compassion for the environment with pumping greenhouse gasses into the Atmosphere may actually help to delay or even halt the development of an Ice Age in full...
How ironic and undeserved if that is the case ;)
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Can you cite some source about it?
I never heard about this one...
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/kron/archive/2000/08/22/northpole.DTL&type=science
More on polar ice melting from the Associated Press:
(08-19) NEW YORK (AP)
For the first time in 50 million years, visitors to the North Pole can see something extraordinary: water.
The thick ice that covers the Arctic Ocean at the North Pole has melted, leaving a mile-wide stretch of water at the top of the world, The New York Times reported Saturday.
Two recent visitors to the pole told the Times about the unexpected sight.
"I don't know if anybody in history ever got to 90 degrees north to be greeted by water, not ice," said Malcolm C. McKenna, a paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural History.
The water could be the result of global warming, although there is a debate among experts about the cause. Some believe it could simply be a natural occurrence rather than the result of a ``greenhouse effect'' caused by manmade pollution and increased concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
Scientists have said that the last time the North Pole had this much water was 50 million years ago.
For oceanographer James C. McCarthy, who visited the pole earlier this month on a tourist cruise, the disappearing ice was a cause for concern. Passengers aboard the cruise were shocked to find water when there has long been only ice.
- That was four years ago, apparently the amount of ice has decreased even more since then.
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Holy ****...
Time to get the US to sign the damned Kioto treaty...
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ice ages are caused by cycles in plate techtonics, temps will rise for a time and eventually they will start to fall again, any geologist will tell you this. its just the cycles are quite long and far exceede our records. also the sun goes through 11 year cycles. which no doubt correlate with the temp records.
we are quite arrogant to think that we can harm something as big as the earth.
i say we get several tonnes of frozen deutrium and a small nuclear device, take them to antarctica and have a little penguin bbq. and flood the earth while you are at it :D
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hehehehe!
Well, Ice Ages are caused by a great many things, the Earths orbit is not identical every year, there is a massive cycle to it which actually takes us closer to the Sun and then further from where we are currently orbiting for about 5000 years before moving back in again. It's not very far in Astronomical terms, not enough to effect adaptable humans at least, but it does cause knock-on environmental effects, one of which is thought to be the Ice Ages.
http://www.physci.wsc.ma.edu/young/hgeol/geoinfo/timeline/iceages/ice.html - Quick reference :)
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Hmm interesting...
Take me a while to read through all this though... :p
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ok so i was abit innacurate with what i said, but plate tectonics does play a role. you see when co2 levels go up, plant health increases. we can cut down trees all we want but they are just gonna grow better in the higher co2 levels. likewise overal animal health diminishes thus decreasing natural co2 output. natue is self correcting. a single volcanic eruption puts out far more gasses than out cars or our factories could in a year. global waming occures by its self weather we help it or not. environmentalisim is not the answer.
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But it doesn't hurt. We were created to be stewards of this world and we shouldn't not be as clean as possible just because it doesn't have a major impact.
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only if you believe in that creationisim crap :D
convert to nihilisim now! all you have to do is nothing.
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Y'know, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a situation where doing nothing has actually helped.
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Originally posted by Nuke
youd be supprised how common revolutions are and they havent changed much.
Yeah, I know :p I wasn't really serious about that revolution, either.
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Originally posted by Nuke
ok so i was abit innacurate with what i said, but plate tectonics does play a role. you see when co2 levels go up, plant health increases. we can cut down trees all we want but they are just gonna grow better in the higher co2 levels. likewise overal animal health diminishes thus decreasing natural co2 output. natue is self correcting. a single volcanic eruption puts out far more gasses than out cars or our factories could in a year. global waming occures by its self weather we help it or not. environmentalisim is not the answer.
Biosphere is self-correcting, but I'd think several million years is a bit long time, considering human lifespan and so on. That's how long it has taken for biosphere to recover from various large-scale catastrophes, like the mysterious Permian mass extinction (though asteroids MIGHT have played a role). A quick question: what would happen to Britain and central Europe if global temperatures were to raise by 10 degrees C?*
The key point is this: Global temperature changes occur naturally. NO **** SHERLOCK. However, it does not mean that the recent increase in global temperatures doesn't have something to do with human activities.
*They would be desert.
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The only way to ensure the survival of the world; Skynet.
:D
**** Humans, Termies own.
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lol.
Scenario:
If they colonised the moon.
But just poluted everything without any hesitation.
Would anybody care?
I think that things should be focused on human survival. If we continued poluting the planet etc, Earth would survive and heal in time. But would we? Probably not.
So people like members of Greenpeace are fighting for a good cause (most of the time), but maybe for the wrong reasons...
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Exactly. It's not about saving the planet, it's about saving ourselves.
I'm sure if you, for example, looked at asthma levels in populated areas you'd find them skyrocketing over time as emissions increased.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Exactly. It's not about saving the planet, it's about saving ourselves.
I'm sure if you, for example, looked at asthma levels in populated areas you'd find them skyrocketing over time as emissions increased.
...ok, then assimilate our minds into one big Culture grade mind. :drevil:
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Originally posted by Flipside
The thick ice that covers the Arctic Ocean at the North Pole has melted, leaving a mile-wide stretch of water at the top of the world, The New York Times reported Saturday.
Melted... yes, that was what happened...:nervous:
OK, I swear to take my drinks with no ice from now on....:o
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Originally posted by Grug
lol.
Scenario:
If they colonised the moon.
But just poluted everything without any hesitation.
Would anybody care?
I think that things should be focused on human survival. If we continued poluting the planet etc, Earth would survive and heal in time. But would we? Probably not.
So people like members of Greenpeace are fighting for a good cause (most of the time), but maybe for the wrong reasons...
I agree, however, as cold as this sounds, we have to look at ourselves realistically. What are the odds of mankind actually caring, as a race, about what it destroys, pollutes etc? About 4000 years of history suggest they are pretty low for quite a while yet. We WILL get the idea eventually, but probably not without a good few more years and the loss of about 2 Billion lives, that would probably make us be good for about 150 years, before sinking back into our old habits.
We need to look at who we are and how we think, and that is a far far bigger job alas :(
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Originally posted by Janos
Biosphere is self-correcting, but I'd think several million years is a bit long time, considering human lifespan and so on. That's how long it has taken for biosphere to recover from various large-scale catastrophes, like the mysterious Permian mass extinction (though asteroids MIGHT have played a role). A quick question: what would happen to Britain and central Europe if global temperatures were to raise by 10 degrees C?*
The key point is this: Global temperature changes occur naturally. NO **** SHERLOCK. However, it does not mean that the recent increase in global temperatures doesn't have something to do with human activities.
hey, im not the moron that decided hey, lets live on a ****ing island even though sea levels are rising :D none the less it wont be an immideate flooding. initially it will only affect the rich snobs that own property in the costal regons. i mean its not gonna be quick like the nuclear bombardment of antarctica would make it. :D
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Originally posted by Nuke
hey, im not the moron that decided hey, lets live on a ****ing island even though sea levels are rising :D none the less it wont be an immideate flooding. initially it will only affect the rich snobs that own property in the costal regons. i mean its not gonna be quick like the nuclear bombardment of antarctica would make it. :D
what the christ
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It's a whole load of things, plate tectonics, orbit etc etc, you are quite correct Nuke. Indeed, it's even been suggested that one mass extinction was created by CO2 level rising because of too much life on the planet....
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Originally posted by Janos
what the christ
All I can figure out, is that somehow the residents of the British isles are to blame for their far distant ancestors moving to said isles several thousand years ago, without considering the risk that a 100-or-so year old former colony would pollute the world in just a few thousands years time and thus melt the icecaps & flood the country.
I mean, it should have been so obvious at the time.
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Flipside hit the nail on the head earlier. Those in positions of real power do NOT have to act on anything 'humane' unless it interferes with profit margin.
Just talk to tobacco companies if you doubt me.
Or Haliburton
**** yeah
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Interesting thing: Some island nation has an evacuation plan set up with Australia to evacuate the entire population.
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Yeah, that's some tiny Pacific archipelago with an average altitude of about 2 metres asl IIRC. Micronesia or Fiji or some such place. Only has a few tens of thousands of inhabitants.
The problem is, the world is run by greedy rich people who want to get even richer by any means necessary. That includes poisoning the seas, razing the rainforests and building stupid cars that do about 10mpg. Oh, and getting their mates to invade hot sandy places where the oil is...
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of course the gradual flooding of the earth isnt that big of a problem. look at the netherlands, most of that place is below sea level already.
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Maybe so, but unless we can build 30m high dykes around the UK, Europe and most of one half of America, it's really not going to help in this case :(
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At least I can run to the Highlands.........
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Well then the world would become a life on the sea. Just like Waterworld.
And people will adapt to it and grow gills!
Tiara - what is it with you and assimilating people into a collective conciousness? :p
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Masturbate..
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Originally posted by aldo_14
All I can figure out, is that somehow the residents of the British isles are to blame for their far distant ancestors moving to said isles several thousand years ago, without considering the risk that a 100-or-so year old former colony would pollute the world in just a few thousands years time and thus melt the icecaps & flood the country.
I mean, it should have been so obvious at the time.
Oh.
Loss of fertile agricultural ground, sudden and aggressive climate changes and overall rise in temperature might have some other consequences, like weakening the Golf Current (uncertain), famine, transportation troubles, fishing getting in trouble except for the most northernmost latitudes etc. Goddamn those ancient idiots for not finding that out.
Of course, these all only apply to UK, whereas countries like Netherlands, Belgium, USA, Italy, Northern Africa, ok let's face EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD are virtually uneffected. Am I rite.
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Unaffected? LOL.
As much as Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors were unaffected by the A-bombs...
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Originally posted by Grug
Tiara - what is it with you and assimilating people into a collective conciousness? :p
*chops Grug in half*
No omniscient state of conciousness for you!
:p
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then of course theres the macnetic pole shift, dont know what kind of affect that will have in the long run.
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Originally posted by Nuke
then of course theres the macnetic pole shift, dont know what kind of affect that will have in the long run.
On the long run, propably nothing, seeing as IIRC they are quite normal events which have happened multiple times over relatively short amounts of history.
It could affect electrics and so on, as Earth's electromagnetic field will fluctuate rather uneasily, but that will only last a couple of tens-hundreds (thousands at best) years. All this is from the top of my head.
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Well, whilst the field is in flux, we are missing a layer of EM protection against the Suns radiation, which will mean a slight increase in the occurences of skin cancer etc.
Theres a strong possiblity that communications and TV satellites will actually function a little better for a while, however, it does mean that the military and GPS systems are going to be completed buggered when it involves magnetic North ;)