Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: an0n on December 13, 2004, 08:10:11 pm
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http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A4BD8038-8970-4542-9E9C-E4FD18C11051.htm
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find the Yediot Ahronoth article, I trust Al Jazeera like you trust Fox
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There are times when I find Al-Jazeera an interesting read. There are also times when I feel like I'm reading the National Enquirer.
Tonight is the latter.
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THIS JUST IN! PRINCESS DI HAS SEX WITH ELVIS, IS PREGNATE WITH MARTIAN BAT-BOY, GOES HOME! EXTRA EXTRA!
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Gotta respect the balls on those "reporters". Most places, making stuff up like that would get them fired. Not that Al Jazeera is "most places". :rolleyes:
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I'm not so sure they're making things up.. Maby they are, maby they aren't...
All I know is, in war, many terrible things happen. In this case, we can only guess...I gues...
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I would personally wait for a secondary confirmation; the quoted Israeli newsppaer source appears to have a hebrew-only website, so I don't know how true Al-Jazeeras story is or not.
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I'am goin wait other sources because i don't trust Al-Jazeera as primary source in this kinda news
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Al-jazeera isnt the source, Yediot Ahronoth is, if anyone honestly thinks Al-Jazeera is going to make something like this up that can be so easily be proven wrong they're just plain ****ing stupid. A quick google turned up this anyways, use your ****ing brains in future before you start making yerselves look like twats.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/511403.html
Not out of character for IDF anyway, check out http://www.btselem.org/
Should give some idea of the sort of things the IDF does do, such as taking human shields like the did during operation defensive shield, which sandwich here was a part of, executing prisioners and just generally being nasty ****ers.
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'The IDF Spokesman announced that Military Police had investigated the incident, but no decision has been reached in the matter by the military prosecution. Soldiers and officers involved in the incident admitted there was no justification for shooting the boy, since he posed no threat, and the gunfire in question was not for operational purposes.'
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The high-level team set up to investigate the Qamail case will begin collecting testimony today from the naval commando unit involved and commanders in the sector. It will also rely on testimony B'Tselem collected from Palestinians.
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Well, I guess on the bright side it is being investigated, and I note from that report that the killing of the 12 year old girl has also been admitted to have been an improperly executed one (not that this helps the girl).
I don't know whether anything will come of the investigation, but I suppose it just shows how level the playing field really is these days, there are people on every single side who seem to think they've been given religious carte-blanche to act outside the dictate of their own faith, which is a wonderful oxymoron. ;)
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I don't think it's even particularly religious any more. It's "ooh, you killed some of us. Now we'll kill some of you!" over and over, by both sides. It's practically routine...
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I think the horrible part in this case is that I don't even think it was motivated by that. It's almost as if they were doing it for a laugh or as a bet to see if any of them would miss, it's quite sickening in that respect.
I wait to see how this will be dealt with....
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Originally posted by Gank
Al-jazeera isnt the source, Yediot Ahronoth is, if anyone honestly thinks Al-Jazeera is going to make something like this up that can be so easily be proven wrong they're just plain ****ing stupid. A quick google turned up this anyways, use your ****ing brains in future before you start making yerselves look like twats.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/511403.html
*tips hat*
You were right, dude. Although that article isn't the most accurate I've seen, esp. with regards to the army's investigation or reported lack thereof into the incedent, but apparently the incident did occur.
Originally posted by Gank
Not out of character for IDF anyway, check out http://www.btselem.org/
Should give some idea of the sort of things the IDF does do, such as taking human shields like the did during operation defensive shield, which sandwich here was a part of, executing prisioners and just generally being nasty ****ers.
This, OTOH, is just plain misleading - from my personal experience and POV. I've NEVER encountered anything remotely like any of those reported crimes against humanity crap the IDF is blamed for. The only instance where I was even marginally involved that a Palestinian was shot (and I've been involved with Pallestinians deeply every time I go into reserves, so don't think it's lack of exposure) was early 2003, right outside of Gaza. He was walking along the border fence, trailing his hand along the fence, setting off all sorts of alarms and such.
When (after multiple shouted warnings, and even shots into the ground in his general vicinity) he continued along the fence towards the IDF outpost, the commander specifically had the most accurate weapon in the outpost, an M-16 A-3 (hardened barrel, telescopic sight, accurate to a headshot at 600m IIRC) shoot the guy in the legs. The range, BTW, was about 150m from our location, so a regular M16, such as what I had, would have been plenty accurate as it is.
That's the "humane/inhumane" IDF that I have personal experience with - not the flesh-craved monstrosity that B'Tselem pictures it as.
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Of course not, and if you had, you'd tell us all about it. I thought you were involved in op Defensive Shield, surely you heard about the paraplegic who got ran over by an APC? What exactly did you do during that op, support or did you actually take part? I think the palestinian death toll there was 70 odd, roughly half women and children. Miss all that?
http://www.google.ie/search?q=cache:Fs25fi_UPNoJ:www.btselem.org/Download/Defensive_Shield_Eng.pdf+defensive+shield&hl=en&client=firefox-a
http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-05.htm#P234_38516
Not one but two cripples it seems.
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First casaulty of war is the truth. Its been a long war and truth has long died.
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Originally posted by Gank
Of course not, and if you had, you'd tell us all about it. I thought you were involved in op Defensive Shield, surely you heard about the paraplegic who got ran over by an APC? What exactly did you do during that op, support or did you actually take part? I think the palestinian death toll there was 70 odd, roughly half women and children. Miss all that?
Look, I don't know what your problem is, or who stuck what up somewhere uncomfortable, but you seem to think that I'm someone who has no problem lying, bending the truth, distorting my firsthand experiences of events, etc, when it suits my purposes.
You obviously don't know me all that well.
No, I did not hear about a parapalegic who got run over by an APC in Defensive Shield (or at any other time for that matter). However, during Defensive Shield, I was in an APC in Jenin. Guess what? The armor of the APC is, for all intents and 7.62mm Kalashnikov purposes, paper thin. Because of this, APCs never traveled first in line of any patrol or column. That was up to the MBTs. Which leads me to wonder how a parapalegic managed to get run over by an APC in Jenin, and yet not by the ubiquitous MBTs in front of said APC.
All that is, of course, speculation, having only the statement of "parapalegic got run over by an APC" and my personal knowledge of operational procedures to work from. Which, of course, since I'm a lying deceitful bastard, isn't worth jack sh*t. :rolleyes:
And if that didn't answer your second question, then no, I was not "support". I was a combat soldier in an APC patrolling through the city of Jenin proper (not the refugee camp), performing house-to-house searches, etc.
As for the death stats, the number is close: 56 is the actual death caount among Palestinians. However, the majority of those were combatants. See here (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_jenin_2002.php), particularly some of the links at the bottom of that page (those that are still active after 2.5 years, that is).
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Ah get off your high horse, you said you were only ever involved marginally in the shooting of one palestinian, yet it turns out you were part of an operation which killed 60.
Anyway, the whole point of this operation was to draw attention to our armored vehicles, to cause the terrorists to be drawn to our area and open fire on us. If and when that occurred, we'd pinpoint the window/doorway the fire was coming in from and toss a 105mm in there.
Thats you speaking, doesnt match up with what you said before.
As foir the Apc, clck the fing links, they're there for a reason.
If I seem a bit narcy with ya sandwich, its because the stuff you say doesnt gel with what your own media reports:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/514884.html
Guy shot dead for crossing a road
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/512441.html
Use of human shields and executing the wounded
thats just from the last few days, can keep going if ya like.
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I'd like to pull a quote from that first publication (http://www.google.ie/search?q=cache:Fs25fi_UPNoJ:www.btselem.org/Download/Defensive_Shield_Eng.pdf+defensive+shield&hl=en&client=firefox-a) you linked to a couple of posts up:
[q]It was no accident that civilians, caught in the middle of the fighting around their homes, suffered grave harm. Those who decided to use massive military force inside cities, villages, and refugee camps surely knew what the consequences would be. [/q]
Has it ever occurred to you that it is in fact the innocent Palestinians who are being terrorised by their own people? Think about it. They're using their own people as human shields from the IDF's retaliation to acts of terror against Israeli civilians.
Which is more accurate, the above quote, or this modified version?
"It was no accident that civilians, caught in the middle of the fighting around their homes, suffered grave harm. Those who decided to hide inside cities, villages, and refugee camps surely knew that the consequences would be."
Think about it.
Originally posted by Gank
Ah get off your high horse, you said you were only ever involved marginally in the shooting of one palestinian, yet it turns out you were part of an operation which killed 60.
[q]Anyway, the whole point of this operation was to draw attention to our armored vehicles, to cause the terrorists to be drawn to our area and open fire on us. If and when that occurred, we'd pinpoint the window/doorway the fire was coming in from and toss a 105mm in there.[/q]
Thats you speaking, doesnt match up with what you said before.
Ok, here's some military information for you - sorry if it gets a bit long-winded.
The abovementioned patrol consisted of, at minimum, one Magach-class MBT (Main Battle Tank) and one M113 APC (Armored Personnel Carrier). Soldiers from the tank corps were manning the MBT, and soldiers from my reserve unit, all of whom had been combat engineers (minefields and explosives) during their regular military service, were in the APC.
MBT's are capable of firing weaponry from inside the protection of the tank - aside from the main cannon, obviously, there is the parallel .50 cal HMG (Heavy Machine Gun - a Browning in this case) that can be aimed from the inside, as well as a gun mount (usually a 7.62mm Belgian MAG) called a Raphael, which uses a periscope for aiming from inside the tank (which, TBH, can be insanely fun to use on the firing range or in live-fire excercises, like a video game... but that's besides the point).
The IDF's APCs, however, generally have one externally-mounted 7.62 MAG, with no mechanism for its use from inside the vehicle. However, the APCs were not there for firepower; they were there for the ease of entry/exit.
You see, the MBTs have these special reactive armor plates dangling along the sides, protecting the crew section from side impacts. These armored plates are filled with explosives that, when hit by an RPG or similar weapon, react by exploding outwards, thus diffusing the focused jet of superheated metal that RPGs penetrate regular armor with. As you can imagine, with these things being filled with explosives, they're a bit more valuable than your run-of-the-mill armored plating. But forget about the costs involved; there's a bunch of military-grade high explosives in each of those things, and boy, wouldn't it be an irony for the next Palestinian suicide bomber to blow himself/herself up with IDF explosives. Woohoo.
So anyway, what with the often narrow streets in the Palestinian cities, it was not unheard of for the tanks to brush up against the side of a building while navigating a corner, which would often result in lost armor plating. Additionally, the makeshift explosives tossed on the vehicles would occasionally knock a gun off its mount. Now, since the only way to exit a non-Merkava MBT is to climb out the hatches on top and down the sides, anyone doing so becomes an easy target. See where I'm going with this yet? M113 APCs have a small door in their rear loading ramps, so if something fell off the tank, we'd drive over to it, stick an arm out, and pull it inside.
All this to say that yes, I did "participate" in those patrols, but only as... heh... as support. ;)
Originally posted by Gank
As foir the Apc, clck the fing links, they're there for a reason.
Pardon me, but I quoted your post before you edited in those links. Bad timing. So there. :p
Originally posted by Gank
If I seem a bit narcy with ya sandwich, its because the stuff you say doesnt gel with what your own media reports:
No problem, Gank - I do get a bit caught up in things sometimes, but I try not to take things personally. So as long as you leave my mother out of this, we should have nothing more than a civil debate. :p
Originally posted by Gank
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/514884.html
Guy shot dead for crossing a road
You might want to rephrase that to "armed Palestinian speeding into closed military zone shot dead":
[q]The shooting occurred after the IDF reopened the Kissufim crossing to traffic, which had been closed for several hour due to an earlier shooting in the area, in which IDF troops killed an armed Palestinian and wounded another, who managed to flee the area.
According to Palestinian witnesses and medics, the 33-year-old man was killed after trying to cross a road closed off by the IDF near the isolated Netzarim settlement.
The sister of Mustafa al-Sawarka said he was killed by IDF tank fire on the taxi in which he was traveling, Israel Radio reported.
An IDF source said soldiers had fired warning shots towards Palestinian cars that sped into a closed military zone along the road but that none was targeted directly.[/q]
Originally posted by Gank
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/512441.html
Use of human shields and executing the wounded
thats just from the last few days, can keep going if ya like.
[q]Military sources said the incident did not involve the execution of the suspect, as argued by the human rights group B'Tselem.
A reconstruction of the incident, says the IDF, shows the soldiers had a legitimate concern that the suspect was still armed.[/q]
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Which is more accurate, the above quote, or this modified version?
"It was no accident that civilians, caught in the middle of the fighting around their homes, suffered grave harm. Those who decided to hide inside cities, villages, and refugee camps surely knew that the consequences would be."
Think about it.
Sorry sandwich, thats a bull**** argument and you know it. Where exactly else are they supposed to go? You did build a big wall all around them you know.
Originally posted by Sandwich
All this to say that yes, I did "participate" in those patrols, but only as... heh... as support. ;)
Zeldas?
Originally posted by Sandwich
Pardon me, but I quoted your post before you edited in those links. Bad timing. So there. :p
np
Originally posted by Sandwich
No problem, Gank - I do get a bit caught up in things sometimes, but I try not to take things personally. So as long as you leave my mother out of this, we should have nothing more than a civil debate. :p
np
Originally posted by Sandwich
You might want to rephrase that to "armed Palestinian speeding into closed military zone shot dead":
:wtf: thats storys changed since I posted it. Was no mention of him being armed then.
And as for the last, the IDF exonerates itself of wrongdoing, what a big surprise. Forgot to deny the use of human shields though, oops.
btw, forgot to mention it, palestinefacts, ran by these guys:
http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/
Hardly unbiased, they even tell you they're not.
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Originally posted by Gank
Sorry sandwich, thats a bull**** argument and you know it. Where exactly else are they supposed to go? You did build a big wall all around them you know.
Where do I think the terrorists are supposed to go? Besides hell, you mean?
How about going to their "leaders" and demanding that they stop teaching their children to hate, hate, hate? You (the generalized, left-wing American public "you", not nessecarily you, specifically) complain about historical events that were connected with religon being taught in schools, and yet where's the outcry at the existence of the suicide bomber camps, the childrens' television hostesses by day, suicide bombers by night, etc?
Change cannot be imposed from without; it has to come from within. And until they stop immersing their children in hatred and violence, I don't see any point in expecting a change. :(
Originally posted by Gank
Zeldas?
Eh? Isn't that a colloquial term for an armored vehicle of some sort?
Originally posted by Gank
btw, forgot to mention it, palestinefacts, ran by these guys:
http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/
Hardly unbiased, they even tell you they're not.
That's why I told you to look at the links they provide to various news sites. Didn't expect you to accept what they say at all. :)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Where do I think the terrorists are supposed to go? Besides hell, you mean?
How about going to their "leaders" and demanding that they stop teaching their children to hate, hate, hate? You (the generalized, left-wing American public "you", not nessecarily you, specifically) complain about historical events that were connected with religon being taught in schools, and yet where's the outcry at the existence of the suicide bomber camps, the childrens' television hostesses by day, suicide bombers by night, etc?
Umm, I dont think that last one works really. And why exactly do they need camps to train people to blow themselves up? That makes absolutly no sense.
Originally posted by Sandwich
Change cannot be imposed from without; it has to come from within. And until they stop immersing their children in hatred and violence, I don't see any point in expecting a change. :(
Well maybe if you stopped stealing their land something might change, just a thought :)
Originally posted by Sandwich
Eh? Isn't that a colloquial term for an armored vehicle of some sort?
Israeli modified M113s, wondering if that was what you were cruising through Jenin in. Believe its nicknamed Zippo.
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Originally posted by Gank
Umm, I dont think that last one works really. And why exactly do they need camps to train people to blow themselves up? That makes absolutly no sense.
Actually, your right. The camps are more for encouragement and moral support reassuring potential bombers that their religion stands behind them (I don’t care if you believe it does or not the point is they believe it does) religious and general hate teachings worshipping of previous "martyrs" although that practice is not limited to the camps in any way shape or form.
They also have some police training them to shoot. You know the same Palestinian "police" who we trained and equipped to hunt down those very same terrorists. Irony’s a b1tch. :doubt:
That’s what the camps are mostly for.
Originally posted by Gank
Well maybe if you stopped stealing their land something might change, just a thought :)
(http://www.fubarforums.com/images/smiles/laughat.gif)
Someone add this smily to the database. I have a feeling I'll be needing it again :nod:
Originally posted by Gank
Israeli modified M113s, wondering if that was what you were cruising through Jenin in. Believe its nicknamed Zippo.
The m113s in service with the IDF have been modified into almost 20 variations http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/M-113.htm
The m113s in general according to the site are referred to as "Bardehlas"
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Originally posted by Splinter
Actually, your right. The camps are more for encouragement and moral support reassuring potential bombers that their religion stands behind them (I don’t care if you believe it does or not the point is they believe it does) religious and general hate teachings worshipping of previous "martyrs" although that practice is not limited to the camps in any way shape or form.
You're right, I dont believe you
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0049.htm
Instead, Rabbani states that the common thread among all suicide bombers is the "bitter experience of what they see as Israeli state terror."
Furthermore, I cant seem to find anything which supports these camps actually existing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3899015.stm
Originally posted by Splinter
Someone add this smily to the database. I have a feeling I'll be needing it again :nod:
Best you can do? a stupid smiley? Thought you'd at least try to justify it in some way :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Splinter
The m113s in general according to the site are referred to as "Bardehlas"
Aye, and see the first one there? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Gank
You're right, I dont believe you
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0049.htm
Originally posted by Splinter
Actually, your right. The camps are more for encouragement and moral support reassuring potential bombers that their religion stands behind them (I don’t care if you believe it does or not the point is they believe it does) religious and general hate teachings worshipping of previous "martyrs" although that practice is not limited to the camps in any way shape or form.
Encouragement moral support religion standing behind them:
To quote your article "I am very happy and proud of what my son did and I hope all the men of Palestine and Jordan would do the same,'' Saeed's father Hassan told The Associated Press.
"[Arafat] knows where the human missiles are being programmed and armed. Such fanatic indoctrination takes time and isolation; it takes teachers of terror skilled in evoking visions of a martyrdom and requires recruits from vulnerably infuriated families who are known to other cells. The brainwashing is reinforced with official broadcasts of films of a dead boy beckoning potential suicide killers to join him in paradise."
A link to that video was posted on another forum I visit I could retrieve it if you like.
"The bombers believe they are sent on their missions by God, and by the time they're ready to be strapped with explosives, say the sources, they have reached a hypnotic state. Their rationale: that by blowing themselves up in a crowd of Israelis, they are forging their own gateway to heaven."
The BBC reported that suicide bombers "are likely to be motivated by religious fervor." According to a BBC report, recruits are "picked out from mosques, schools and religious institutions. They are likely to have shown particular dedication to the principles of Islam… and are taught the rewards that will await them if they sacrifice their lives."
According to Islamic tradition, "he who gives his life for an Islamic cause will have his sins forgiven and a place reserved in paradise."
An unnamed Palestinian security official cited in today's Jerusalem Post said, "One of the problems in stopping [suicide bombing] attacks is the strong support for them among the population."
According to a poll conducted among Palestinian adults from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem at the end of May by Dr. Nabil Kukali and the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion (PCPO), "a substantial majority (76.1%) support suicidal attacks like that of Netanya [in May], whereas 12.5% oppose, and 11.4% express no opinion."
So yes thank you for posting that article it reaffirms exactly what I said. As for your quote you conveniently left out* this bit "Religious or ideological fervor appears to offer only a partial explanation."
When linking to an article you should have the forethought that your peers on the boards might actually READ what was in the article. Shocker I know. :doubt:*
Originally posted by Gank
Furthermore, I cant seem to find anything which supports these camps actually existing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3899015.stm
What does that have to do with the camps that’s the story of a boy who made the right decision an gave himself up before blowing things up and realized that if given the chance he wouldn’t do it again. I fail to see what this has to do with the camps?
Most organized camps or basses as you would imagine them are not located inside Israel since we would promptly bomb the **** out of them. They are mostly in Lebanon and Syria and are sometimes visited by the IAF when they really piss us off.
Camps in the territories however cannot be as outspoken or permanent as that. They are attached to residential areas hell they are mostly in these guys’ apartment buildings.
Originally posted by Gank
Best you can do? a stupid smiley? Thought you'd at least try to justify it in some way :rolleyes:
You know I have discussed this subject and this point in particular more times then you have played FS2 I bet and if there is one thing I know it is to recognize certain things about people and how they are going to carry on. And before I even joined this conversation the way you went about in talking even when others were trying to be civil about it you snuck in the most little snide remarks just to make them feel that much more degraded.
So 1st I play a bit of your game with a mock smiley and some remarks of my own (Marked with my good friend Mr. Star '*')... you know, it's the little things. Feels good don’t it?
2nd I have no desire to get into that part of the subject since it is very long and drawn out discussion and pardon me but I don’t like debating with asshats. You want to be rude and stuff fine? I can play that game but I am not going to try and have a rational debate about a serious matter with someone like you.
If you would like to change that a bit and start over be my guest.
It baffles me that the most civilized debate I ever had on this subject was a 10-page discussion with a Palestinian man living in Saudi Arabia. We had completely conflicting views and complete disagreement on many parts but we stayed civil and we stayed calm and we had a great discussion and we traded jokes and such in the middle of the discussion. See that’s what mature people do.
If you would like to participate in these grown up activities you need to grow up get over the "oh he disagrees with me so ill make him feel as stupid about it as possible even while debating with him" and just start talking like you would if the people were sitting next to you. Cause dude in real life you would have been clocked about 4 posts back.
Originally posted by Gank
Aye, and see the first one there? :rolleyes:
Yeah man zelda... its a protection kit.
I think you wanted "variants" :yes:
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Originally posted by Gank
Umm, I dont think that last one works really. And why exactly do they need camps to train people to blow themselves up? That makes absolutly no sense.
The last one being...? The children's TV hostess by day, suicide bomberess by night? Ok, technicalities of daytime vs. nighttime aside, you hadn't heard about her (http://www.google.com/search?q=children+tv+hostess+bomber+suicide)?
And bad wording on my part re: the suicide bomber camps... I was referring to the day/summer/whatever camps named after "martyrs".
When was the last time you heard about a "Baruch Goldstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein) Camp for Aspiring Jewish Youngsters", hmm? :doubt:
Originally posted by Gank
Well maybe if you stopped stealing their land something might change, just a thought :)
If they'd (surrounding Muslim nations) stop trying to make us one with the Mediterrainian, perhaps we'd not have these wars in which we push them back beyond their previous borders. Sheesh. Whatever happened to "all's fair in love and war"?
And don't start that whole "Israel started the '67 war" debate, either. We can just bump numerous old threads for that, and we both know where each other stands. :)
When we take out Iran's nukes, OTOH... :p
Originally posted by Gank
Israeli modified M113s, wondering if that was what you were cruising through Jenin in. Believe its nicknamed Zippo.
Ahh, quite right (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/Zelda.html) - in English. We've never referred to them as Zeldas in Hebrew, and I dunno about the Zippo thingy.:p
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Well maybe if you stopped stealing their land something might change, just a thought
IGNORANCE!!!
The land is natively Isreali/Jewish. The Roman Empire kicked them out of the region and spread them around Europe in order to quell rebellion.
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Originally posted by Deepblue
The land is natively Isreali/Jewish. The Roman Empire kicked them out of the region and spread them around Europe in order to quell rebellion.
Even the bible states that they stole it from the Caananites amongst others.
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Yes but its a moot point since the Caananites are dead.
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Originally posted by Splinter
So yes thank you for posting that article it reaffirms exactly what I said. As for your quote you conveniently left out* this bit "Religious or ideological fervor appears to offer only a partial explanation."
When linking to an article you should have the forethought that your peers on the boards might actually READ what was in the article. Shocker I know. :doubt:*
The bit I left out refutes what your saying about religious motivation being one of the main reasons, as for me not rading the article, maybe you should go back and read it, instead of cherry picking what you want out of it. And please, point out exactly where these camps come into it, because they arent menition once in it.
Originally posted by Splinter
What does that have to do with the camps that’s the story of a boy who made the right decision an gave himself up before blowing things up and realized that if given the chance he wouldn’t do it again. I fail to see what this has to do with the camps?
It doesnt have anything to do with the camps, thats the whole ****ing point. Suicide bomber, decided to do it, got his bomb, went off to blow himself up, bottled out. Not one mention of a camp. Do you have a problem understanding what I'm pointing out here? All will become clear in the next reply.
Originally posted by Splinter
Most organized camps or basses as you would imagine them are not located inside Israel since we would promptly bomb the **** out of them. They are mostly in Lebanon and Syria and are sometimes visited by the IAF when they really piss us off.
Seeing how near every suicide bomber has come from the west bank or gaza and has no way of getting to lebanon or syria and returning one would question the efficiency of these suicide bomber camps, no? Please provide some form of evidence that any suicide bombers have came from a camp in either of these two places, otherwise you will be ridiculed like the idiot you are.
Originally posted by Splinter
Camps in the territories however cannot be as outspoken or permanent as that. They are attached to residential areas hell they are mostly in these guys’ apartment buildings.
So basically they're not camps :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Splinter
You know I have discussed this subject and this point in particular more times then you have played FS2 I bet and if there is one thing I know it is to recognize certain things about people and how they are going to carry on. And before I even joined this conversation the way you went about in talking even when others were trying to be civil about it you snuck in the most little snide remarks just to make them feel that much more degraded.
snip
For ****s sake your on the internet, stop puffing out your chest nobody can see you. Meh, I had a big long thing typed out here in response to this making ****e of you and generallly putting you down in nasty ways but I'm in good form because I got my hole tonight and I'm well ****ing pished so I'm not gonna bother. Anyways you seem to fancy yourself as a bit of a hardo, I'm dubious of that because you havent learned something really basic in that line, people dont perform well when they're angry, whether it be talking fighting whatever. Guards get dropped, things are let slip which wouldnt normally be etc etc. hopefully thats enough for you, if its not put the barrel of that 16 in your mouth and pull the trigger when you get called up next year, because if you cant nderstand that you aint going nowhere. (only messing lad, dont do it really, kill some pallys instead, make you feel much better)
Originally posted by Splinter
Yeah man zelda... its a protection kit.
I think you wanted "variants" :yes:
No **** man, so its a modified m113 :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Sandwich
The last one being...? The children's TV hostess by day, suicide bomberess by night? Ok, technicalities of daytime vs. nighttime aside,
No, hadnt, and if you give me a proper link to something with a bit more credibility than free republic or Israeli sites I might, scrolled though 4 pages of the google search without finding anything impartial about it. A CNN or BBC report will do, AP or reuters would be preferable.
Originally posted by Sandwich
And bad wording on my part re: the suicide bomber camps... I was referring to the day/summer/whatever camps named after "martyrs".
refugee camps then, cos most of them are named after martyrs?
Originally posted by Sandwich
When was the last time you heard about a "Baruch Goldstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein) Camp for Aspiring Jewish Youngsters", hmm? :doubt:
Tell you what sand, provide some concrete proof of the existence of these suicide bomber camps, their links to terrorism etc, and then we'll talk about the lack of an Israeli equivelent.
Originally posted by Sandwich
If they'd (surrounding Muslim nations) stop trying to make us one with the Mediterrainian, perhaps we'd not have these wars in which we push them back beyond their previous borders. Sheesh. Whatever happened to "all's fair in love and war"?
Seeing how these wars were started because of the great land garp of 48, you dont really have a leg to stand on with that arguement. To remind you, 7% of the original palestinian mandate was legally owned by jews before 1948, you now rule 100%, all of which has been taken by force. You live in Jerusalem right? East right? Where were you born? How did your parents get the house they live in? Did they buy it off a former resident or the jewish National Fund?
Originally posted by Sandwich
And don't start that whole "Israel started the '67 war" debate, either. We can just bump numerous old threads for that, and we both know where each other stands. :)
If I remember you admitted you werent actually aware who started it after I posted numerous quotes from Israeili leaders saying different. can dig up the thread if you like, was about yassin iirc.
Originally posted by Sandwich
When we take out Iran's nukes, OTOH... :p
Please explain exactly how you're going to do this, because every site I've seen whatever there political leanings agrees you havent the capabilities.
Originally posted by Sandwich
We've never referred to them as Zeldas in Hebrew, and I dunno about the Zippo thingy.:p
Thank you, were they what you were in? I belive the zippo thingy is a reference to their tendancy to brew up rather quickly. The reason I mentioned them is that most Israeli apcs are fairly well armoured, but seeing how the tanks you mentioned are old (centurions/m60s cant remeber which) and youre a reservist seemed logical you'd be getting the older apcs. Not important or anything, just profession curiosity.
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Originally posted by Deepblue
IGNORANCE!!!
alright you ****ing asked for it :D
edit, meh that sounds like there was so,mething big coming after it, sorry, too drunk to follow it up.
Originally posted by Deepblue
The land is natively Isreali/Jewish. The Roman Empire kicked them out of the region and spread them around Europe in order to quell rebellion.
Complete and utter BULL****. the roman empire never kicked the jews out, the most severe action the took against the jews was barring them from entering the city of jerusalem for around 100 years, after a failed rebellion. And before anyone points out that the members of this failed rebellion fled palestine afterwards, they didnt, they commited mass suicide at Masala.
secondly read this sunshine, then feel bad a pagan knows more about your own religion than you do
http://www.thetrumpet.com/geo/na/docs/issues/199807/understand-prophecy.asp
btw, read the article, not the site, its one of thos white supremacy the english are gods chosen people, they have to be how could they not be ones.
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Originally posted by Gank
The bit I left out refutes what your saying about religious motivation being one of the main reasons, as for me not rading the article, maybe you should go back and read it, instead of cherry picking what you want out of it. And please, point out exactly where these camps come into it, because they arent menition once in it.
It says that religious motivation is partial explanation. That’s doesn’t mean its not a main motivation not that it matters if it did because that’s a quote off one man. One guy and I quoted off how many? No one can say that any single one of them is correct and I think that article really cant prove anything it did not present facts or any substantial evidence to back up either claim. It simply listed quotes. :wtf:
As for the camps, I didn’t post that link. You did, so here this is another link (http://www.webdogpro.com/index.php) and look! It has no mention of the camps as well! :eek2:
Originally posted by Gank
It doesnt have anything to do with the camps, thats the whole ****ing point. Suicide bomber, decided to do it, got his bomb, went off to blow himself up, bottled out. Not one mention of a camp. Do you have a problem understanding what I'm pointing out here? All will become clear in the next reply.
1st off Who ever claimed that every terrorist or would be bomber comes from a camp. Every single one without exception.
2nd I can post 99.99999 percent of all web articles online ever with no mention of the camps so no I don’t see your point in posting that article.
If you wanted a link to a site that mentioned the camps you would have found and posted one.
You want a single example off the top of my head? Hammas a while back was using a soccer stadium as training grounds. That was one of their "camps"
Originally posted by Gank
Seeing how near every suicide bomber has come from the west bank or gaza and has no way of getting to lebanon or syria and returning one would question the efficiency of these suicide bomber camps, no? Please provide some form of evidence that any suicide bombers have came from a camp in either of these two places,
I'm sure quite a few Palestinian terrorists have been there and snuck back in. But mainly the camps up north have their own terrorist groups... such as hezbollah. They operate out of Lebanon not inside Israel.
Originally posted by Gank
otherwise you will be ridiculed like the idiot you are.
Seriously dude what’s the point? I'm not one to take offense usually I debate this crap on forums where personal insults aren’t a problem you can fling crap at whomever you wish. But dude isn’t that a rule on this forum? And for good measure? Are the admins bending the rules here letting it slide because you’re Irish or something? Well so am I. that’s no excuse.
Just a thought but those comments like I pointed out in my previous post simply don’t help anyone. So like I said. Debate this without these comments or you can debate with yourself. And don’t give me your Internet sob story Internet forums have rules to.
Originally posted by Gank
So basically they're not camps :rolleyes:
Depends what you would call a camp? If you simply refer to camp in the physical form of a bunch of buildings with an assembly area with arranged activities and mess halls and a campfire area where they sing frikkin koom-ba-ya then no there are no camps.
But if you mean in the sense of people taken to certain predestinated places for different stages of their training and initiation where *counselors* will help you through the process. Stuff like that then yes there are terrorist training camps around.
So the question is what do you classify as a camp? The outside appearance? You want everything marked plainly because life is always just that simple?
The inside activities at the core of the matter? What they DO to classify themselves as a "training camp"?
Or does it have to be both. Cant be one without the other.
Originally posted by Gank
For ****s sake your on the internet, stop puffing out your chest nobody can see you. Meh, I had a big long thing typed out here in response to this making ****e of you and generallly putting you down in nasty ways but I'm in good form because I got my hole tonight and I'm well ****ing pished so I'm not gonna bother. Anyways you seem to fancy yourself as a bit of a hardo, I'm dubious of that because you havent learned something really basic in that line, people dont perform well when they're angry, whether it be talking fighting whatever. Guards get dropped, things are let slip which wouldnt normally be etc etc. hopefully thats enough for you, if its not put the barrel of that 16 in your mouth and pull the trigger when you get called up next year, because if you cant nderstand that you aint going nowhere. (only messing lad, dont do it really, kill some pallys instead, make you feel much better)
Ok, I didn’t understand 90% of that. And what in the world is a hardo?
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Originally posted by Gank
No, hadnt, and if you give me a proper link to something with a bit more credibility than free republic or Israeli sites I might, scrolled though 4 pages of the google search without finding anything impartial about it. A CNN or BBC report will do, AP or reuters would be preferable.
Yeah, I've been unable to find mainstream (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/22/mideast/) media (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41187-2004Sep22.html) reporting such a damning tidbit of information. Of course, because of our differing viewpoints, you and I will most likely read completely different things into that: I don't believe the media that did report it would make it up, and can easily see from past patterns of behaviour how mainstream news sites would choose not to report such things. You, OTOH, will probably conclude that it is a fabricated bit of information intended to make the Palestinians look that much worse, etc.
Such is life viewed through the eyes of the media. I don't ask you to believe that she was a children's TV show hostess. All I ask is that you remain aware of how much of what you (or I, to be fair) think we know about an event. It's truly amazing the power the media has over the opinions of people around the world.
Tell me, had CNN/BBC/AP/Reuters actually reported that Zeinab Ali Isa Abu-Salem was a children's TV show hostess, came from a rich family background, etc - what would that change in your perception of "things", whetever it might be?
Originally posted by Gank
refugee camps then, cos most of them are named after martyrs?
Tell you what sand, provide some concrete proof of the existence of these suicide bomber camps, their links to terrorism etc, and then we'll talk about the lack of an Israeli equivelent.
No, actual summer camps. Does MEMRI (http://www.memri.org/aboutus.html) count as a sufficiently reputable source for you? Here's what someone at BBC wrote about them:
[q]"www.memri.org - What they do is very simple, no commentary nothing else. What they do is they just translate what the Saudis say in the mosques, say in their newspapers, say in government pronouncements, say in their press."
- October 1, 2002, BBC[/q]
If that works for you, read this (http://www.memri.org/bin/media.cgi?ID=60003) (specifically paragraph 6):
[q]The official Palestinian Authority Web site carries photographs of gun-toting Arab children, including the one below. Other Arab children attend the two summer camps named after the female suicide bomber Wafaa Idris, or the others named after "shahids" or martyrs - i.e., suicide bombers - or after the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which the U.S. government has designated as a terrorist organization. At one such camp, according to the Memri report, "the children held a closing ceremony which included a play called "The Shahid's Wedding"- that is, his wedding in Paradise to the 72 black-eyed virgins.[/q]
Or do you still refuse to believe?
Originally posted by Gank
Seeing how these wars were started because of the great land garp of 48, you dont really have a leg to stand on with that arguement. To remind you, 7% of the original palestinian mandate was legally owned by jews before 1948, you now rule 100%, all of which has been taken by force. You live in Jerusalem right? East right? Where were you born? How did your parents get the house they live in? Did they buy it off a former resident or the jewish National Fund?
"Land garp"? :lol: ;)
Seriously, though, read up on some history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel). The formation of the State of Israel was granted by the UN. The war started because the Arab states refused to recognize that, and attacked us.
I live in Gilo, the Jerusalem-neighborhood-turned-settlement once "they" started shooing at us. It is situated in the southmost part of Jerusalem, with the (friendly) Arab neighborhood of Beit Saffafa (sp?) between us and the rest of Jerusalem, and the Arab village of Beit Jala to our south (known as the village terrorists occupied to shoot at Gilo from).
I was born in Spokane, Washington, US of A. And we have rented all of our apartments in the 16 years we've lived in Israel - we do not own any property here yet (not an unusual situation at all for Israel, FYI).
Your point?
Originally posted by Gank
If I remember you admitted you werent actually aware who started it after I posted numerous quotes from Israeili leaders saying different. can dig up the thread if you like, was about yassin iirc.
Yes, I was unaware of the specific history of the 1967 war, being that I hated history classes in school. If nothing else, I've certainly learned new things from all these debates around here. Have you learned anything?
Originally posted by Gank
Please explain exactly how you're going to do this, because every site I've seen whatever there political leanings agrees you havent the capabilities.
I was half-kidding. Besides, IIRC the response time and high velocity of the Israeli Arrow II anti-missile missile allows it to destroy incoming missiles within minutes of the launch detection, which in this case would destroy any missiles Iran might toss our way over Iraq, Jordan, or Syria.
Theoretically.
Originally posted by Gank
Thank you, were they what you were in? I belive the zippo thingy is a reference to their tendancy to brew up rather quickly. The reason I mentioned them is that most Israeli apcs are fairly well armoured, but seeing how the tanks you mentioned are old (centurions/m60s cant remeber which) and youre a reservist seemed logical you'd be getting the older apcs. Not important or anything, just profession curiosity.
Israel loves refitting older tanks to keep them comprable to "new" modern tanks. The Magach MBT (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/magach/Magach.html), origianlly based on the M48, with the later versions based on the M60, are a perfect example of this. The Magach 7 (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/magach/Magach_7.htm) is comprable to a modern MBT in capabilities, although it is still overshadowed by the likes of the Merkava 3 & 4, the M1A1, etc.
Anyway, the Israeli APCs I've seen aren't armored all that well. There's a thin outer layer of perforated metal that sits about a foot away from the main hull of the APC, and is meant to cause incoming RPG-type rockets to detonate prematurely, thus wasting their focused superheated lead (IIRC) on the open air between outer layer and actual hull. However, higher-caliber bullets, such as those from 7.62mm Kalachnikovs, are apparently able to penetrate the APC's thin actual armor under certain circumstances.
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History is litered with empires stealing lands from other empires and all that stuff.
Spaniards killing The Aztecs and Mayans
British killing god knows how many races
Romans, same..
Americans - Native Americans
Isralei - Palestinians
Only reason America and Israeal are taking so much heat is because the people whos land were first invaded/taken over/etc is because there are still a large amount of the original people left alive.
Not that i say its right.
But this shows a key historical fact, If you want to take or occupy a foreign country, displacing even the smallest amount of natives, you better slaughter them all and replace them with your own people or you will pay for it later for a long time to come.
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Jesus I dont remember even posting that last night, meh.#
Originally posted by Sandwich
what would that change in your perception of "things", whetever it might be?
Noo, it wouldnt, because to me the fact that she was a childrens tv presenter has absoloutly no relevance to the fact that she blew herself up.
Originally posted by Sandwich
No, actual summer camps. Does MEMRI (http://www.memri.org/aboutus.html) count as a sufficiently reputable source for you? Here's what someone at BBC wrote about them:
ffs sandy will ye stop using this sort of **** to back yourself up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMRI
Originally posted by Sandwich
Or do you still refuse to believe?
Believe what? You started off with suicide bomber camps and now you're talking about kids summer camps, what exactly is so terrible about this? Thats the kids were having a play? Big ****ing deal, hardly ****ing terrorist activity now is it? Why dont you go bomb them anyways. As for the actual naming, have the places in Ireland are named after people who died fighting the brits, I'm guessing its the same in a lot of places, including Israel.
Originally posted by Sandwich
"Land garp"? :lol: ;)
Seriously, though, read up on some history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel). The formation of the State of Israel was granted by the UN. The war started because the Arab states refused to recognize that, and attacked us.
Beh, drunk, and I think you better go back and read that article yourself, because you dont seem to understand it. As for the UN, what right had it to give you someone elses land, none. And if you think theat gives you some form of legitimacy the countless times you've broke its charter and ignored its resolutions cancel this out. You cant hold one thing they've said up while ignoring everything else.
Originally posted by Sandwich
Your point?
The point would be you're a settller, one of the people stealing the pallys land.
Originally posted by Sandwich
Yes, I was unaware of the specific history of the 1967 war, being that I hated history classes in school. If nothing else, I've certainly learned new things from all these debates around here. Have you learned anything?
Ya, but mostly from checking my facts before I refute people arguements.
Originally posted by Sandwich
Anyway, the Israeli APCs I've seen aren't armored all that well. There's a thin outer layer of perforated metal that sits about a foot away from the main hull of the APC, and is meant to cause incoming RPG-type rockets to detonate prematurely, thus wasting their focused superheated lead (IIRC) on the open air between outer layer and actual hull. However, higher-caliber bullets, such as those from 7.62mm Kalachnikovs, are apparently able to penetrate the APC's thin actual armor under certain circumstances.
Magachs a patton? didnt know that. The other APCs I was reffering to were Achzarits, and the engeneering vehicles, there primarily what you see on tv footage over here.
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Originally posted by Krackers87
British killing god knows how many races
Brits as rule didnt slaughter, their prefered tactic was to take advantage of existing tensions between groups or create new ones, eg religion, tribal, ethnic groups. Sunni and Shia in Iraq is a prime example, Sunnis got their power despite being a minority from the brits. Divide and Conquer its called, the slaughtering was usually reserved for when people figured out what they were up to. Seems to be the same policy the US is following in Iraq, unfortunatly its been done there before and is unlikely to work again.
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Originally posted by Deepblue
Yes but its a moot point since the Caananites are dead.
Maybe but it establishes a precident. If the only historical claim the Jews have to the region is that they slaughtered the previous inhabitants it follows that anyone who successfully slaughtered them also has a claim. In which case the Italians have as strong a claim as they do :)
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you're ignoring the fact that the jew werent the kingdom of Israel, rather a small part of it, they have no claim to its entirity having never had it oin the first place. As for slaughtering all the caanites, they didnt, they massacred many cities but not all. There were many other people living in the area now ruled by Israel, how else could this be true:
John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1374851,00.html
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Originally posted by Sandwich
thus wasting their focused superheated lead (IIRC)
Copper, typicaly.