Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Striker on December 14, 2004, 08:59:17 pm
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I was just plaiyng through my copy of FS1 and noticed during the Taranis mission briefing there were 3 nodes leading from Sol. One was to Alpha Centauri, one to Beta Aquilae, and the last to Delta Serpentis. Anyone ever noticed this? :confused:
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http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Node%20Inconsistencies#CBAnim
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We all tend to disregard the inconsistencies in the FS1 nodemap. There's too many to count.
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Adam Pletcher, lead designer told us, back in 1998: The animations for command briefs was made before the node map or the story was finalized.
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ph34r the w0rd of Pl3tch3r!
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They dont exist in FS2, but in FS1 if you examine the briefings, the GTD Galatea & co. uses all these "un-existing" nodes, and in the end cinematic it is said that "All the jump points from Earth have been destroyed."
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Originally posted by Ai No Koriida
They dont exist in FS2, but in FS1 if you examine the briefings, the GTD Galatea & co. uses all these "un-existing" nodes, and in the end cinematic it is said that "All the jump points from Earth have been destroyed."
Its more than just Sol. There's plenty of nodes in the CB anims that don't actually exist according to a final, finished, canon nodemap from Volition.
Refer to my original post for reasons why.
If you need to explain it out in terms of story...then yes the Lucifer took down all of the nodes in Sol. However, this contradicts what happened to the Bastion in FS2.
In either case...its a story/development issue...not really something we should worry about.
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We'll just say the Lucy blowing up made them all unstable somehow.
How's that sound?
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
We'll just say the Lucy blowing up made them all unstable somehow.
How's that sound?
Again...contradicts what happened when the Bastion took out the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node. The other two nodes were still intact (to Gamma Draconis and to Vega).
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Not if the Lucifers explosion was several orders of magnitude due to the extremely unstable and powerful nature of shivan reactor technology bracket slash technobabble.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
reactor technology bracket slash technobabble.
Whats with not just typing a / ?
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Originally posted by Hippo
Whats with not just typing a / ?
comedy
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uh huh...
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I wrote this up a while back, and it's stricktly from the campaign/mission briefings:
*Antares - Vasuda Jump Node exists
*Betelgeuse-Antares Jump Node exists near an asteroid field
*Antares - Ribos Jump Node exists
*Antares-Beta Cygni Jump Node exists in center of dense asteroid field
*Beta Cygni-Ribos Jump Node exists - the "less direct Jump Node to Sol"
*Beta Cygni-? Jump Node exists - the "more direct Jump Node to Sol"
*Ribos-Antares Jump Node exists and must be secured to reach *Vasuda Prime from Antares
*Deneb-Vega Jump Node
*Deneb-Altair Jump Node
*Delta Serpentis-Sol Jump Node
*Sirius-Delta Serpentis Jump Node
*Only two subspace jumps between the Lucifer fleet in Ribos and the Vasudan homeworld.
*Dozens of star systems off the Ribos node
*Alternate route to Vasuda Prime from Ribos through (1) Antares and (2) Beta Aquilae
*Alpha Centauri-Vasuda Jump Node
*Alpha Centauri-Aldebaran
*Alpha Centauri- Sirius Jump Node
Antares/Vasuda - On map
Betelgeuse/Antares - Not
Antares/Beta Cygni - On map
Beta Cygni/Ribos - Not
Ribos/Antares - On map
Deneb/Vega - On map
Deneb/Altair - Not
Delta Serpentis/Sol - On map
Dozens of stars systems off Ribos node - NOT
Beta Aquilea/Vasuda - Not
Alpha Centauri/Vasuda - On map
Alpha Centauri/Aldebaran - On map
Alpha Centauri/Sirius - On map
In other words, the inconsistancies are more wide spread than just the ani files. FS2 is much cleaner about it.
I tend to lean towards the explination in one of the tech rooms, where many of the nodes are very unstable and short lived, so the extra nodes off Sol were just stable enough to list on the ani's, but after the Lucifer, they collapsed completely.
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Lets be honest; extra-textually, Volition were just lazy. They COULD have stuck with 'all the nodes have been...' but changed it to just one. They removed alot of other nodes too, just to make their silly map look better. I much prefered the FS style 'nodes ahoy' to the FS2 'one to three nodes each please, watch your fingers' style. We can all just handwave 'subspace instability' and its okay, but it would have been better if they hadn't messed it up to start with. I imagine the closed-but-not-Delta Serpentis nodes would be easier to stabilise again :)
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i like BWs technobabble.
besides, the high concentration of technology on earth maybe had an effect... >_<
besides, the bastion exploded farther into the node than the lucy, which was like 2/3 out (IIRC)
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Watching the Bastion explode and then the Lucifer explode, the two are very different.
The Bastion explodes, releasing a shockwave, while entering the node, is destroyed before the node closes and the pieces sucked into the node before the node closes.
The Lucifer is breaking up as it leaves the node, lets loose a shockwave as the node closes and shears the Lucifer into two, then the part that sends off another shockwave before finally exploding.
Although I don't believe :V: intended for it to account for the three other nodes, let's pretend it does XD
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I wonder why V decided to ditch all those jump nodes, after all, even if those nodes would have been there in FS2, it wouldn't have affected the story a bit, since even in FS1 there was only one node to Capella from Vega (not mentioned by name, but there are a lot of outer systems in the CB-anims in FS1, that are not labeled.
I've actually drawn a map of all the jump nodes of FS1 on paper. It took a little while, but it was well worth it. Why hasn't nobody made a FS1 nodemap, with all the missing nodes? It is quite strange to just ignore all these nodes, because there literally are dozens of nodes that just simply ceased to exist in FS2. :ha: If they would have been removed from FS1, the story would be a LOT different. Just replay the FS1 campaign, and pay attention. Think about it! :o
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Cause without Sol being gone there would be no "lost generation"
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And because FS2's storyline required much more strategy; there were battle lines drawn and tactics to be considered. In FS1 it was just Shivans pouring in from all over the place.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo
Dozens of stars systems off Ribos node - NOT
Connections on connections. I suspect.
I think he would have meant, if you didn't want to say it quickly "There are dozens of systems that comprise terran space and Sol isn't under immediate threat (ie linked to ribos) - so the shivan's will have to examine them all.
Not all things said in english are literal.
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Originally posted by Ai No Koriida
...I've actually drawn a map of all the jump nodes of FS1 on paper. ...
Any chance you could post it? Seems mighty interesting.
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Originally posted by Jal-18
Any chance you could post it? Seems mighty interesting.
Seconded. I'd like to see this (and I'm too lazy to do it myself ;))
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Sorry, but I don't have any way to scan it :( . And besides, it's not that hard to do, just replay the campaign, and keep your eyes and ears open! :p
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You greatly underestimate the laziness factor of all this, of course... :p
Could you remake the map in Photoshop or some other program?
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Aye - just draw it in paint or something. Use circle, line and text. It doesn't have to be pretty, just lines and blobs with names. I've not got the time to trawl through FS1 again these days... :(
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Can't you just screencap the briefing cutscene?
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Alright you lasy arses :p, so now I've got a nodemap for you. It's made in Paint, it's not pretty, but it should be sufficient for now.
(http://server2.uploadit.org/files/harbringer-FS1nodes.JPG)
Don't laugh! :o
It still might have some errors, thought, as I am very tired right now. Good night.
EDIT: Removed the Beta Cygni-Ikeya jump node.
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Haha, many thanks good sir!
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****in' sweet. Cheers for that. :cool:
Talania? What the hell? That's a new one....
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IIRC, Talania used to be part of the GTVA until the nodes became (naturally) unstable and collapsed.
I made a revamped (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/navalfreak18/Misc/revamped-FS1-nodemap.jpg) (but slightly more cluttered) version of the map, and I've come to the conclusion that the Shivans were fools. Instead of going through the Ross 128-Delta Serpentis jump node, where they could have wiped out Earth faster and gained almost immediate access to Beta Aquilae, Antares, Vega, and Ribos-the most node heavy systems on the map- they give you all the time in the world by taking out the backwater 2 or 3 node systems.
edit: fixed a couple of errors
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lol. gg gta/pvn.
A leaves from Sol, jump to Sol-Beta Aquilae node -> jumps to Beta Aquilae -> jumps to Beta Aquilae-Vasuda node -> jumps to Vasuda.
If BA was so important to GTA it should've been almost completely under GTA control. Then how could the Vasudans hold the GTA back for 14 years in only one node? (Even small-scale breakthroughs would be pretty fatal, as intrasystem jumps can be pointed practically anywhere. Supply lines could be disrupted with just a few cruisers performing hit-and-run operations.
Oh well.
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Deneb also has the same thing going on...
We always knew Command was a bit "special..."
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
Talania? What the hell? That's a new one....
A myth I have, unintentionally, encouraged. There's no evidence for it's existance, though I still can remember seeing it on an official FS node map. There's no proof, and I've accepted that it isn't real, never was probably. Don't worry about it, it's not a big deal.
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Originally posted by Jal-18
IIRC, Talania used to be part of the GTVA until the nodes became (naturally) unstable and collapsed.
I made a revamped (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/navalfreak18/Misc/revamped-FS1-nodemap.jpg) (but slightly more cluttered) version of the map, and I've come to the conclusion that the Shivans were fools. Instead of going through the Ross 128-Delta Serpentis jump node, where they could have wiped out Earth faster and gained almost immediate access to Beta Aquilae, Antares, Vega, and Ribos-the most node heavy systems on the map- they give you all the time in the world by taking out the backwater 2 or 3 node systems.
edit: fixed a couple of errors
Glad you people like it :) Beautiful map you made there Jal-18. And as for the Shivans taking the longest route, well, maybe they just checked the systems that had the biggest subspace-travel left-overs, specifically the ones were the T-V war had been raging on. And as for the Ross 128 thingy, maybe they used some unknown jump node leading from Ross 128 to Ikeya system. Who knows...
And as for the Beta Cygni-Ikeya node, well, althought they do state in the command briefing cutscene that there is only one subspace node out of Ikeya, but in the mission briefing for First Strike they say that the Taranis has been chased from the Beta Cygni system back to the Ikeya system. Propably just a mistake though, but I still included the node anyways.
EDIT: I decided to remove the Beta Cygni-Ikeya node, because it more likely is just a mistake by the mission designer (meant to be Ribos-Ikeya). So there really is just one node out of Ikeya. My deepest apologies, I should have been more careful.
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There likely isn't a Beta Aquilae-Vasuda node either. The only reference we get is when Admiral Wolf says "We're going to move the Galatea into Beta Aquilae in case the Shivans decide to attack Vasuda Prime through there." They never even explicitly mention a jump node.
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Right. I checked the CB-anims, and there are only two jump nodes from Vasuda. One to Deneb, the other to Antares. I'll fix the map...again! Here goes:
(http://server3.uploadit.org/files/harbringer-FS1nodes.JPG)
EDIT: Added the Alpha Centauri-Vasuda jumpnode.
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'Exodus' (SM3-01) mentions nodes from Alpha Centauri not only to Sirius, but also to Vasuda and Aldebaran.
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Aldebaran is on my map, it just isn't shown. I checked the CB-anims again, but in FS1 there isn't any node from Alpha Centauri to Vasuda. Maybe they discovered a new jump node from Alpha Centauri to Vasuda after the Great War, just like they discovered Gamma Draconis.
EDIT: I just checked the nodemap from BW (this map is pretty accurate representation of FS2, correct?), and discovered a whole slough of new jump nodes. Aside from the possible errors made by V, I suppose all those new jump nodes where discovered after FS1. And please, for the sake of my head, this is a Conflict Freespace nodemap, based in 2335, not FS2, which is thirty years later. Arrghh! :sigh: :D
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I'll say it again, nice and slow.
'Exodus', a mission in Freespace 1 (the first of Act 3), is based in Alpha Centauri, at a jump node cluster, which has nodes to Aldebaran, Sirius and Vasuda.
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At the risk of stating the obvious, have you checked the Node Inconsistencies (http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Node%20Inconsistencies) section in the Wiki? It mentions a whole bunch of nodes that were used in FS1 but not in FS2. If I were making the node map, I'd include every node except the Hearsay, Implied, and Mistake nodes. (Mistake being the Beta Cygni-Ikeya node that probably should have been Ribos-Ikeya.)
However, it doesn't mention nodes that were used in FS1 that were also used in FS2, such as the Alpha Centauri-Vasuda node that Blaise Russel just mentioned. Perhaps we should add another page to the Wiki: "All the Jump Nodes Ever Seen or Used in FS1". :)
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Originally posted by Blaise Russel
I'll say it again, nice and slow.
'Exodus', a mission in Freespace 1 (the first of Act 3), is based in Alpha Centauri, at a jump node cluster, which has nodes to Aldebaran, Sirius and Vasuda.
So, I'm sorry, I made a simple mistake. I was just checking the cbanims, and they only showed two nodes in Vasuda, and I didn't remember to check that mission. But I will make corrections to my map.
Originally posted by Goober5000
At the risk of stating the obvious, have you checked the Node Inconsistencies (http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Node%20Inconsistencies) section in the Wiki? It mentions a whole bunch of nodes that were used in FS1 but not in FS2. If I were making the node map, I'd include every node except the Hearsay, Implied, and Mistake nodes. (Mistake being the Beta Cygni-Ikeya node that probably should have been Ribos-Ikeya.)
However, it doesn't mention nodes that were used in FS1 that were also used in FS2, such as the Alpha Centauri-Vasuda node that Blaise Russel just mentioned. Perhaps we should add another page to the Wiki: "All the Jump Nodes Ever Seen or Used in FS1". :)
I have checked the wiki. I'll look into the matter of all those nodes later on then. I can't possibly remember everything.
EDIT: I just noticed I had the Alpha Centauri-Vasuda jumpnode on my paper. Yeah, a plain mistake by me, sorry :)
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*pedants rejoice everywhere*
:)
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New Map (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/navalfreak18/Misc/newmap.jpg)
Updated my map (and made it easier on the eyes) Also added Aldebaran off of Alpha Centauri to comply with the 'Exodus' mission.
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Again, excellent work! :yes: How do you do those maps?
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Hm. Would you consider copying the Volition node map, deleting all the connections, and adding the different ones?
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Ai No Koriida: Using Photoshop 7.0 and FRED. (To get the planet graphic)
Goober5000: It would take a bit more work then I'd like, but I could. Any particular reason why?
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Only because it's more familiar. Then we could see the node differences more easily.
The arrangments of the planets and nodes in the Volition map are actually the same as in the cbanis. Only the node connections are different.
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Guys, what about the possibility of the Nodes that, for natural reasons, and atmosphereic reasons, through random time periods became stable, and unstable. Ones that were unstable and thus un usable, in time reappeared as stable. Would this theory get anywhere? Anybody know any technical stuff?
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That's one of the leading theories.
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It's possible, but unlikely; whilst nodes can appear and dissappear at varying intervals, only those which have been stable for many, many years (presumably verifiable through sensory input) are used by the GTVA.
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The GTVA has been at peace a long time, though; perhaps during the T-V War in trying to gain an advantage over the Vasudans Terran Command had a looser definition of "stable"?
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What if after FS2, they (Sol) or Gtva, in a last effort to reconnect, sent explorations out to the stable and not-so-stable nodes, even unstable ones, in a very desprate effort? What would hapen then- if they did slash if they didnt?
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By the way, since Nodal functions are only going to be likely to work on an actual gravital basis, as most theories (real world science) which would try to describe them and subspace would suggest, it would make a bit more sense to look at it like the star gate system.
It'll be constantly changing but not at a rate of 32 years, so I would be more likely to think it was based on technological differences making some nodes more stable, whilst some, that were already on the verge of collapse, became quite litterally, totally unusable.
Also;
Gravity would make a nice way of explaining just WHY the lucifer's reactors caused the ripple.
Because of the reaction in side them, the (more than likely) Fission compression before the actual explosion itself distorted the node beyond all use, then dispersed in an explosion.
I can't remember if there were explained physics on the meson, and what those were if they were though.
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Lucy levels planets with fission reactors now? No wonder she needed so many! :)
Although they'd never lost a node because of a ship exploding in it (indeed, this suggests to me that not ALL explosions destabilise nodes, and that Lucy was special in some way), they still weren't too surprised that the node was 'gone'. That suggests to me that nodes becoming unstable and undetectable is well known, if not commonplace. THAT might explain the retarded 14 year war, one system apart; those nodes might be new or destabilising - I'm not sure anyone wants to risk major offensives through potentially collapsing nodes.
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...GTVA Command would...
Um anyways, what about when a fighter shoots down a fighter who is jumping out, and explodes on the jump line, why isnt it sucked in and dispersed killin that jump node-sub area on the other side? (node- sub area= Fighters jump node things...blew watery lookin ones. Alt-J)
Also why cant fighters use the nodes? Regular Nodes. In the capella mission i try to jump out, knowing what will hapen. It dose a regular one.
For my last question: If only a Cap ship could open the node, could a fighter jump in along with it\sneak in- so to speak?
Bah one last question. If only a cap can.., how did we get our fighters in the node, with the lucy..???
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Originally posted by Charismatic
...GTVA Command would...
Um anyways, what about when a fighter shoots down a fighter who is jumping out, and explodes on the jump line, why isnt it sucked in and dispersed killin that jump node-sub area on the other side? (node- sub area= Fighters jump node things...blew watery lookin ones. Alt-J)
The warpout is a hole or tear into the subspace plane; it doesn't 'suck' anything in or out.
Also why cant fighters use the nodes? Regular Nodes. In the capella mission i try to jump out, knowing what will hapen. It dose a regular one.
That is a proper warpout. The only green warpout is the Knossos one.
For my last question: If only a Cap ship could open the node, could a fighter jump in along with it\sneak in- so to speak?
Not without it's own jumpdrive. Ships need to, IIRC, vibrate in multiple dimensions to enter subspace; insofar as I can tell they need to 'align' their physical vibrations correctly to stably enter subspace, so they need a jump drive to do so.
Bah one last question. If only a cap can.., how did we get our fighters in the node, with the lucy..??? [/B]
Evidently a subspace vortex - a single connection - will remain open for a short period of time after the opening ship departs through it. It's not clear if this is an exclusive feature of the Lucifer, though.
worth noting that in FS1 you do not enter the same warp 'vortex' as the Lucifer, though - but only the same tunnel.
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Also worth noting that until "Reaching The Zenith" in FS1, fighters did not have intersystem capability.
It is mentioned in the Subspace tech description that intersystem drives for fighters are prohibitively expensive and, contrary to the myth, are NOT fitted to all fighters as standard. "Producing these small jump drives is prohibitively expensive, so they are limited to missions that require fighters to jump in between systems."
Evidently a subspace vortex - a single connection - will remain open for a short period of time after the opening ship departs through it. It's not clear if this is an exclusive feature of the Lucifer, though.
worth noting that in FS1 you do not enter the same warp 'vortex' as the Lucifer, though - but only the same tunnel.
There are no other canon incidences of ships being pursued into or out of subspace in the same way as the Lucifer. It may be that the Lucifer's death throes (rather than its technology) allowed such an interaction with the subspace tunnel that the GTA fighters (and the exchanged Thoth wing) could exit through the same vortex.
We'll never know, I guess, unless we can hijack Pletcher and get him to comment.
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
There are no other canon incidences of ships being pursued into or out of subspace in the same way as the Lucifer. It may be that the Lucifer's death throes (rather than its technology) allowed such an interaction with the subspace tunnel that the GTA fighters (and the exchanged Thoth wing) could exit through the same vortex.
We'll never know, I guess, unless we can hijack Pletcher and get him to comment.
Ah... I'd forgot about the exit...... of course, there's no other instances of ships departing as a node collapses, is there? Maybe the collapsing of a node + tunnel causes an 'outgas' of whatever's in the node - maybe not necessarily 'dumping' them out the end, but at some random realspace location.....
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
There are no other canon incidences of ships being pursued into or out of subspace in the same way as the Lucifer.
Actually, that may not be entirely true. Yes, tracking cap ships through a node like the Lucifer hunt was a new thing, but battles in subspace may not have been unique at all. Read:
sm3-07a.fsm
From the records you retrieved in Altair, we have discovered the means to destroy the Lucifer. As you know, our shield systems do not work in subspace. The same holds true for the Lucifer. More importantly, the records contain the information to enable us to track a capital ship into and inside subspace.
The highlighted part in important. Why would the pilots of fighters know that the shields don't work in subspace unless they had a reason to use it. Chasing ships through the node may never have been done before, but battles in subspace do appear to have happened. Or at the very least, they either expected that it would happen or planned for such an event. In any case, it was researched enough that even the pilots were informed of this fact.
It may be that the Lucifer's death throes (rather than its technology) allowed such an interaction with the subspace tunnel that the GTA fighters (and the exchanged Thoth wing) could exit through the same vortex.
Several ideas come up here. 1) All intersystem jumps end at a specific location. It's just something they do, part of normal operations.
2) What you said, the release of massive energy made the jump vortex out large enough for even the fighters to escape.
3) Might be normal for exiting ships in subspace to produce such a large opening that anything can go through. Would certainly make node assualts easier, that's for sure.
4) The vibrations necessary for a ship to exit might actually be transferable at extreamly close range. The fighters attacking the Lucifer were virtually right on top of it when it jumped out, and it may have transfered the exit vibrations during the sequence allowing everyone to get out.
Or something else. Just ideas, afterall.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo
The highlighted part in important. Why would the pilots of fighters know that the shields don't work in subspace unless they had a reason to use it. Chasing ships through the node may never have been done before, but battles in subspace do appear to have happened. Or at the very least, they either expected that it would happen or planned for such an event. In any case, it was researched enough that even the pilots were informed of this fact.
Check the ref bible; it states that
[q]
The camera shows a medium shot of the two scientists at the terminal, standing near a small enclosed test area. Energy & light flickers from inside the test enclosure.
[watching monitor together]
TerranSci-1: You see from this part of the captured ship breakdown the energy flow is constant.
VasudanSci-1: Yes…but how do you explain what happens during a jump? It doesn’t seem as if the rate is sufficient to support the required level.
TerranSci-1: Very good observation “EEEEE” You live up to your credentials. You see…
[walking to another monitor]
The Terran gets out of his chair and the Vasudan follows him over to the research equipment where the other scientists are tweaking things.[possibly cut this part if we don’t want to show more scientists]
[cut to monitor displaying some sort of graphical test readouts]
TerranSci-1: We’ve been able to get a prototype shield system working under normal conditions. However when we simulate jump phenomena there’s no way to keep the power levels high enough.
VasudanSci-1: But under normal conditions the shields actually protect the inside structures?
[cut to show both scientists]
TerranSci-1: Correct. They stop almost all damage from getting through, at the cost of energy, which explains how the Shivan ships have been able to defend against our attacks so easily. Despite its shortcomings in subspace, we should be able to start producing shield systems for use on our ships.
[/q]
There is (somewhere) a mention that destroying a ship in subspace can destroy a node, however this doesn't imply in-subspace combat... if blockades were in operation during the TV war (as I think they were), a ship could conceivably be blown up before exiting subspace completely... maybe even explaining the missing Talnia system?
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The Lucifer jumped into Ross 128 using an apparently non-existant jump node. Maybe some sort of special subspace reactor (or 5..?) allowed it to do so. The destruction of such a powerful subspace motivator may have released LOADS of energy at the same frequency as the jump corridor...
As for the Meson bombs in fs2...uhh..maybe the jump drive/reactor/giant firecracker in the Lucifer had something along that lines in it?
meh..just a thought...
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Yeah, but the shivans also came from nowhere to get to Ikeya... And as they said in FS2: "blah blah blah shivans have made jumps without nodes blah blah blah"...
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Hadn't thought of that frankly, you're right. :)
Along similar lines however, what if the Lucy drew power from subspace? It was a rather large destroyer for the time period, and something like that to power it and it's rather large weapons systems may not be completely unfeasible.
Or it could have just been a cool plot idea.:D
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Hmm. Come to think of it. Why did the lucy have 5 reactors? Whats so special about them. Besides the fact they powered its shields, but 3 would be enough.
So increased power allows capital ships, with certian design and alloys (stronger) do inter-systemal jumps, possibly without being near a planetary...buble game loop thing mentioned in some post somewhere in General Freespace. Bah. Sorry.
Note this:
Lucy has 5 reactors. Most iv seen in any other capital ship in FS1 or FS2, was 2 reactors. Possibly just one.
What hapend to all the reactors? Whats up with that?
Anyone else notice this?
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Besides the general BS that people seem to spout around here about beams being able to rip through shields anyway more blah blah.
The Lucifer was the only capital ship ever regarded as impervious to weaponry.
I wouldn't be suprised if you could storyline in a few vasudan bigship-kamikazes to that list of things-that-tried-really-hard-to-kill-luci
Generally: Probably that.
Edit;
That and of course it's nice dramatic effect having to blow up the reactors to kill the big behemoth of doom.
Not only that, but it does make you fly over the whole ship, showing it off just a little more.
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Besides the general BS that people seem to spout around here about beams being able to rip through shields anyway more blah blah.
The Lucifer was the only capital ship ever regarded as impervious to weaponry.
I wouldn't be suprised if you could storyline in a few vasudan bigship-kamikazes to that list of things-that-tried-really-hard-to-kill-luci
Generally: Probably that.
Edit;
That and of course it's nice dramatic effect having to blow up the reactors to kill the big behemoth of doom.
Not only that, but it does make you fly over the whole ship, showing it off just a little more.
Lucifer was only impervious to FS1-era weaponry anyways, IIRC. It's possible it only has 5 reactor subsystems for the sake of making the final mission interesting.
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Originally posted by Hippo
Yeah, but the shivans also came from nowhere to get to Ikeya... And as they said in FS2: "blah blah blah shivans have made jumps without nodes blah blah blah"...
Just because there's only one jump node in Ikeya that we can use, doesn't mean there aren't a few other, weaker ones that the Shivans can use, and that aren't on the nodemap. The Ribos-Vega node that the Lucifer used to evade the Antares blockade in FS1 is likely one of those weak nodes.
The Lucifer may also have used a weak node to get to Ross 128 early on, but for all we know it might have just waltzed in through the Laramis node without anyone noticing. Laramis was an unexplored and relatively unknown system at the time, after all. But eh. (I'm far more nerdly than is legal when it comes to this.) :p
Also, what Petrarch says is that the Shivans are just as reliant on nodes as we are. If they could jump without any nodes at all, there'd have been no point to sealing off Capella, or to most of the FS2 campaign in general. Replay that command briefing.
But, I hope the Shivans have no weak-nodes to work with in Gamma Draconis... :shaking:
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Originally posted by aldo_14
There is (somewhere) a mention that destroying a ship in subspace can destroy a node, however this doesn't imply in-subspace combat... if blockades were in operation during the TV war (as I think they were), a ship could conceivably be blown up before exiting subspace completely... maybe even explaining the missing Talnia system?
I think in that quote, it's implying that the shields are connected to the jump drives in some odd way (building a prototype so quickly might be explained as an expansion of current subspace theories rather than a brand new technology). Relating it to the jump might just mean that powering the shield and the jump drive at the same time might not be possible. Still, the point is why would the pilots need to know such a thing if they never intended to use the shield and the drives together? AKA, fights in subspace. In anycase, the text of the cutscene is not clear at all on what they're refering to or why.
From FS2, we're given an indication that there needs to be a great deal of force necessary to destroy the node (cramming an Orion full with Mesons would be a touch excessive otherwise). Battles in the nodes likely doesn't threaten the node a great deal, only when a truly massive (Lucifer scale) explosion takes place does the node collapse.
And I've had to admit that Talinia was never a star system, so we can stop talking about it like it was. In any case, it's much better and easier to simply say the nodes collapsed naturally rather than were forced closed.
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Just because there's only one jump node in Ikeya that we can use, doesn't mean there aren't a few other, weaker ones that the Shivans can use, and that aren't on the nodemap. The Ribos-Vega node that the Lucifer used to evade the Antares blockade in FS1 is likely one of those weak nodes.
True, but they put unsafe nodes on the map nonetheless (albeit they are still useable)... I think that if it was detectable, it's on the map... They act like the Lucifer made (some) jumps without ANY nodes...
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The Lusifer probably had the 5 reactors so that it could jump through 'unstable' nodes GTVA ships cant jump through since they dont have the power. That and it needed extra power for its sheilding system (after all, the lusifer is huge, you'd need alot of power to cover it with a sheild). Simply put, the Lusifer was 1 huge power consumer :p
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/resists SUV joke
But yeah, I think the five reactors were a split between unstable node travel, shields, and super long missile trails of doom. :D
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Originally posted by Eishtmo
I think in that quote, it's implying that the shields are connected to the jump drives in some odd way (building a prototype so quickly might be explained as an expansion of current subspace theories rather than a brand new technology). Relating it to the jump might just mean that powering the shield and the jump drive at the same time might not be possible. Still, the point is why would the pilots need to know such a thing if they never intended to use the shield and the drives together? AKA, fights in subspace. In anycase, the text of the cutscene is not clear at all on what they're refering to or why.
Well, all I can say is that it implies they know the Shivan ship they captured can't power it's shields in subspace. And later from the Ancients data / monologues, of course (I'm not sure what they kept in the actual shield cutscene).
Obviously they'd know - and brief - that shields didn't work in subspace if they were attacking the Lucifer in there. But I'm not aware of any other implication of in-subspace fighting, or even the possibility of it (didn't they need a special tracking device to get into the same corridor as the Lucifer?)
Originally posted by Eishtmo
From FS2, we're given an indication that there needs to be a great deal of force necessary to destroy the node (cramming an Orion full with Mesons would be a touch excessive otherwise). Battles in the nodes likely doesn't threaten the node a great deal, only when a truly massive (Lucifer scale) explosion takes place does the node collapse.
This may be what I was thinking of;
Act 3 Misc 2A
SNIP
Furthermore, the Ancients speculate that subspace nodes were quite fragile, and that combat during a jump would surely cause the collapse of the surrounding nodes.
It may[/i] be a case of several things making this a unique circumstance;
- The GTVA could simply not have known the force needed to collapse a node and played it safe
- Some nodes are more 'fragile' than others
- The size of the blast was needed to counteract the Shivan subspace field for some reason, or in an attempt to destabilise even uncharted nodes in Capella
Originally posted by Eishtmo
And I've had to admit that Talinia was never a star system, so we can stop talking about it like it was. In any case, it's much better and easier to simply say the nodes collapsed naturally rather than were forced closed.
Well, we don't know, at the end of the day. Chalk one up to the plot holes......... same for, um, Gulnara or something. There is an Interplay story floating around somewhere which suggests a node being pre-emptively collapsed to save Sol from the Lucifer; I'm not sure if you could consider that canon, though.
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Chalk one up to bad tech room listings and plot holes.