Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rictor on December 15, 2004, 07:24:57 pm
-
Hmm, the most interesting one yet IMHO
Video and transcript here
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7468.htm
People of the world! These words come to you from those who up to the day of the invasion were struggling to survive under the sanctions imposed by the criminal regimes of the U.S. and Britain .
We are simple people who chose principles over fear.
We have suffered crimes and sanctions, which we consider the true weapons of mass destruction.
Years and years of agony and despair, while the condemned UN traded with our oil revenues in the name of world stability and peace.
Over two million innocents died waiting for a light at the end of a tunnel that only ended with the occupation of our country and the theft of our resources.
After the crimes of the administrations of the U.S and Britain in Iraq , we have chosen our future. The future of every resistance struggle ever in the history of man.
It is our duty, as well as our right, to fight back the occupying forces, which their nations will be held morally and economically responsible; for what their elected governments have destroyed and stolen from our land.
We have not crossed the oceans and seas to occupy Britain or the U.S. nor are we responsible for 9/11. These are only a few of the lies that these criminals present to cover their true plans for the control of the energy resources of the world, in face of a growing China and a strong unified Europe . It is Ironic that the Iraqi's are to bear the full face of this large and growing conflict on behalf of the rest of this sleeping world.
We thank all those, including those of Britain and the U.S. , who took to the streets in protest against this war and against Globalism. We also thank France , Germany and other states for their position, which least to say are considered wise and balanced, til now.
Today, we call on you again.
We do not require arms or fighters, for we have plenty.
We ask you to form a world wide front against war and sanctions. A front that is governed by the wise and knowing. A front that will bring reform and order. New institutions that would replace the now corrupt.
Stop using the U.S. dollar, use the Euro or a basket of currencies. Reduce or halt your consumption of British and U.S. products. Put an end to Zionism before it ends the world. Educate those in doubt of the true nature of this conflict and do not believe their media for their casualties are far higher than they admit.
We only wish we had more cameras to show the world their true defeat.
The enemy is on the run. They are in fear of a resistance movement they can not see nor predict.
We, now choose when, where, and how to strike. And as our ancestors drew the first sparks of civilization, we will redefine the word “conquest.“
Today we write a new chapter in the arts of urban warfare.
Know that by helping the Iraqi people you are helping yourselves, for tomorrow may bring the same destruction to you.
In helping the Iraqi people does not mean dealing for the Americans for a few contracts here and there. You must continue to isolate their strategy.
This conflict is no longer considered a localized war. Nor can the world remain hostage to the never-ending and regenerated fear that the American people suffer from in general.
We will pin them here in Iraq to drain their resources, manpower, and their will to fight. We will make them spend as much as they steal, if not more.
We will disrupt, then halt the flow of our stolen oil, thus, rendering their plans useless.
And the earlier a movement is born, the earlier their fall will be.
And to the American soldiers we say, you can also choose to fight tyranny with us. Lay down your weapons, and seek refuge in our mosques, churches and homes. We will protect you. And we will get you out of Iraq , as we have done with a few others before you.
Go back to your homes, families, and loved ones. This is not your war. Nor are you fighting for a true cause in Iraq .
And to George W. Bush, we say, “You have asked us to ‘Bring it on’, and so have we. Like never expected. Have you another challenge?”
-
feels good to have your ideals stroked doesn't it?
-
I never said it did, nor did I say they were stroking my ideals.
What, you don't consider this newsworthy?
-
It is a rather interesting read.
-
Fascinating. Though it would be more prudent to pretend you have capitulated and disrupt oil flow, etc. a country that appears to have rolled over can be a much greater threat.
-
oh comeon, you have your 'boys patting you on your back confiming everything for you.
"We thank all those, including those of Britain and the U.S. , who took to the streets in protest against this war and against Globalism."
the valient resestence fighters are telling you that you were right and just and your such great guys. come on admit it reading things like this makes you feel good. sort of how the falling of Sadam's statue made a lot of us feel justified and good.
this thing is just a rehashing and consolidation of the same retoric that has been gushing from the'freedom fighters' (and there suporters) for.. years.
though, I do respect the aditud in the last paragraph.
-
Does it ever get to the point where you are just fed up with having your brain screwed until you no longer know what to believe and from where?
I want to believe this of the Iraqi people, I want to believe that if the above happened it could all end peacefully. But that doesn't always make it the truth alas, it seems that the Olive Branch, these days, always seems to have thorns on it.
It may well be a true representation of their feelings, or it may be designed to pamper to what the numerical majority of the world want to believe is the truth anyway, because somehow that makes us less dirty if we can assign 'good guys' and 'bad guys' to them.
-
this part of the world is nothing more than a political foot ball between the major political powers of the western world. and these people are playing both sides around the middle.
that's as far as I can figure it.
what there saying is to perfictly in line with the anti-gloablist 'movement'. Rictor, what would you think if I posted a long letter from an Iraqi about how they are so thankful that we freed them from Sadams tyrany?
-
That's the whole thing, Bobboau, I've become such a sceptic of the whole thing now, that I would doubt the complete sincerity of any information posted on the subject, I am sure that there are Iraqis who are glad to be free of Saddam, just as I'm sure there are now Iraqis who would now be glad to be free of the American occupying forces.
I find myself wondering what the world would have been like if Saddam had the money instead of America (Socially only, the religious issue is a whole other forum's worth of debate). Would it be worse, it's not written that it would be, maybe Saddams bitterness came from his treatment by the American government and slant-drilling by American corporations in Kuwait. Who can say, I've heard so many rumours and seen so much speculation that I can't. Saddam may have been an entirely different man, since he would have grown up an entirely different way.
There are Iraqis who consider themselves 'good' and the US forces as 'bad', genuinely so. Are they wrong? No. Those Iraqis are obviously considered 'bad' by the Americans, are they wrong? No.
Ah well, maybe if we stopped thinking people as good and bad, and started thinking of people as people we might get somewhere
-
Insurgents: Help us France help us Germany
France: Umm, how much are you willing to pay us, huhhuhhuh
-
I was agreeing with/suporting what you said
the thing is, if you think of someone as a person and they still think of you as a monster, they have the advantage. becase you are willing to trust them.
-
Awww, just nuke it all into glass, then drill through the glass and get the oil. There, am I fulfilling the ignorant American stereotype well enough for you?
note: I don't believe that's really the solution, but sometimes I wish we could just get rid of that whole mess over there.
-
Ok, who here actually believes the war in Iraq was for oil?
-
It was about oil in that is our main concern in the middle east. We don't want to steal it per se.
-
We've forgiven them a TON of money spent by Saddam.
I'm wondering if that message was Zarquiwe (sp?) affiliated or not...
-
Who here actually believes it's about WMDs?
-
We, now choose when, where, and how to strike. And as our ancestors drew the first sparks of civilization, we will redefine the word “conquest.“
:lol:
They should have chosen a different word, like one that actually works in that context.
-
And to George W. Bush, we say, “You have asked us to ‘Bring it on’, and so have we. Like never expected. Have you another challenge?”
"Keep on dying like the miserable worms you are."
That should work nicely.
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
I was agreeing with/suporting what you said
.
I know you were Bobboau, sorry if I sounded argumentative :)
-
Originally posted by redsniper
Who here actually believes it's about WMDs?
Everyone thought he had WMD's, you know why? We gave them to him and he used them on the Kurds.
-
actualy it's more like everyone 'knew' he had them, but not many thought they were a threat.
-
Thing is, as has openly be displayed on here, to the average American public, an Iraqi resistance fighter is a 'worm'.
If that is the thought that is crawling through the minds of the public, that this person is 'less than human', when they are doing exactly what their own country would ask of them if someone invaded, why not just nuke the area and have done with it, you've already denied them the right to have a soul, so it's only a tiny step to deny them the right to live?
Edit : Oh, and don't doubt I know that their opinion of you is similar, I'm simply stating that this is the source of the problem.
-
Brutally murdering innocents and cutting off heads qualifies them for that name. I'm sorry if you seem to accept this behaviour as honorable.
-
Gratification. Pure and complete joy in the fact that A) this could very well be real and B) that, if it is real, there are more intelligent people fighting our occupation than leading it.
I can't wait to hear Bush's responce, if he choses to allow this to hit the media.
-
Originally posted by demon442
Gratification. Pure and complete joy in the fact that A) this could very well be real and B) that, if it is real, there are more intelligent people fighting our occupation than leading it.
I can't wait to hear Bush's responce, if he choses to allow this to hit the media.
Our?
-
Bombing civilians and brutally torturing prisoners, on occasion to death, is not exactly going to qualify for guiness book of Human Rights either. Both sides have done things they would be ashamed of if they stopped to look at their own peoples actions rather than condemn the oppositions'.
-
I wonder where you get your news... War is hell, but I don't see PURPOSEFUL civilian slaughtering and torture coming from the Coalition forces.
-
Do you think the average Iraqi gives a camels turd about whether his wife was killed by accident or not?
'OOOOOops, Sorry!' Doesn't really cut it in that situation.
-
when we do that **** we get pissed at the people doing it and apologise, they video it and celebrate, there proud of it.
honestly I oftne wonder if they do that specificly to keep us fighting longer for some reason.
-
"War is hell."
Intent is a huge part of the crime.
-
Wasn't that Bin Laden's rationale for 9/11?
Edit : Look at it this way, who is the terrorist's terrorist? Who, in the eyes of a terrorist, forces their people to live in fear and hunger, whether that belief is justified or not? American Corporations, who are supported by American military.
Would it be so hard to prove that you are not as willing to kill civilians to get 'terrorists' as they are?
-
Except one party is right, and one party is wrong. You sir, have an extremely warped view of the world and give credibility to those that have none.
-
the mideast is frothing over with conspericy theories about zionists and Americans.
anyway, just becase blame was sucessfuly shifted to us means we have to act like we realy are to blame.
the sanctions for example, Iraq invaded kuwate, they lost a war shortly after that they started, they sign a cese-fire agreement, they violate it, and in retaliation we, rather than bombing the ever liveing holy **** out of them, are convinced to try economic preasure, the only way I can see that this can be our fault at all is that we were the ones who didn't want to remove them, but it is seeming now that the people who were working the hardest to remove the sanctions may have been getting something out of it, but does anyone care about this, no, infact bringing it up will no doubt bring everyone left of the Regans shouting 'propaganda' at the posability.
..what was my point again...
oh, yeah just because people have had there perceptions of reality twisted buy the political forces that they are emersed in to come to a conclusion does not mean they are equivelently right.
-
Originally posted by Deepblue
Brutally murdering innocents and cutting off heads qualifies them for that name. I'm sorry if you seem to accept this behaviour as honorable.
Oh bull****. Like the U.S. hasn't killed any innocent Iraqis during the war. What about those restaurants and appartment complexes that we hit the first day with cruise-missiles because there was a possibility Saddam had been there within the last hour? What about every bomb that's missed it's target? Every person killed because they look suspicious?
If we're worried about 'insurgents' or civilians even, dying to defend their country, much as I expect people here would, then maybe it's a sign that we really shouldn't be there.
And of course the war is about oil. Don't give me the "OMFG NO ITS NOT THE WAR COSTS A MILLION TIMES MORE THAN THE OIL IS WORTH RETARD LOL" story either. You forget that oil is also a resource that a lot of people need. Controlling a resource translates into power.
-
it's far more likely that it's idealogicly based IMHO
-
Originally posted by Rictor
[q]Put an end to Zionism before it ends the world.[/q]
:lol:
-
Originally posted by Deepblue
Except one party is right, and one party is wrong. You sir, have an extremely warped view of the world and give credibility to those that have none.
:wtf: If that isn't warped, I don't know what is. So your whole argument for being 'right' is 'because we are'?
-
*fart*
Henceforth this shall be my opinion of political discussions.
-
Originally posted by redsniper
note: I don't believe that's really the solution, but sometimes I wish we could just get rid of that whole mess over there.
NahNahNah.....has your mom never introduced you to the concept of "You broke it, you fix it!" ?
-
Hold on a ****ing minute, what did Britain do?
We were there in a support capacity and were actually quite restained when it came to taking cities. Whereas American adopted their "love the smell of Napalm" strategy and started indescriminately killing everyone and everything that moved (like British troops :doubt: ).
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
when we do that **** we get pissed at the people doing it and apologise, they video it and celebrate, there proud of it.
You mean like the missile-mounted camera footage that gets handed to the press? Or the Apache-mounted camera footage that gets handed to the press? Or the 'on the scene reporting' footage that gets handed to the press?
The only time American ever apologises for any wrong doing is when it gets caught and can't explain it away or blame it on a scapegoat.
The reason you don't here the Iraq freedom fighters going "It's just a few bad eggs doing the beheadings" is because they're ****ed anyway and they don't need to go cosying up to liberals for support in future elections and the legislative process.
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
anyway, just becase blame was sucessfuly shifted to us means we have to act like we realy are to blame.
I understand what you mean Bobboau, I'm not trying to blame anyone, it's blame that started this whole disgusting state of affairs in the first place. I don't think America is any more guilty of atrocities than their opposites. I also think that one sides actions cannot justify the others either. The problem is that me believing it doesn't make one iota of difference, the people that do need to believe are the ones out there fighting and dying, an both sides.
I am just as uninclined to disbelive the propoganda of Terrorist groups as I am that of the Coalition, there lay my dilemma.
Edit : Considering yourselves 'right' does not justify doing what you know is 'wrong' on either side
-
yeah, that's what I was trying to say, being right doesn't give you the right to do wrong things.
-
Originally posted by Col. Fishguts
NahNahNah.....has your mom never introduced you to the concept of "You broke it, you fix it!" ?
Now hold on a second. I can't even vote yet so I'm sure as hell not responsible for the Iraq war. It's not my fault we have an idiot president.
-
It wasn't meant towards you, but towards the current US government.
-
Originally posted by redmenace
Insurgents: Help us France help us Germany
France: Umm, how much are you willing to pay us, huhhuhhuh
You're kidding, right ? 'Cause I can make soooooo much comment on America being exactly like that or worse that it wouldn't even be funny. :blah:
-
Originally posted by Deepblue
I wonder where you get your news... War is hell, but I don't see PURPOSEFUL civilian slaughtering and torture coming from the Coalition forces.
Abou grahib, anyone ?
-
and the people are currently being prosecuted by us for makeing those men dress up in womens clothes. when was the last time an glorious freedom fighter was punished by the noble resistence movement for beheading someone?
-
When Terrorists murder a victim, who is guilty? the one holding the sword or the ones who did nothing to prevent it? Or are they all as guilty as each other?
Many people knew what was going on at Abu Ghraib and chose not to speak about it, how is their guilt any less than those who did the actual beating? I think it is good that these people are being prosecuted, but even in this particular episode, there are two equal and opposing views.
-
Originally posted by Flipside
When Terrorists murder a victim, who is guilty? the one holding the sword or the ones who did nothing to prevent it? Or are they all as guilty as each other?
the one holding the sword, and those who actively helped, like the guy who held the soon to die guy down and the guy who drove the car that picked the guy up. crimes of ommision are a whole order of magnatude smaller.
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
and the people are currently being prosecuted by us for makeing those men dress up in womens clothes. when was the last time an glorious freedom fighter was punished by the noble resistence movement for beheading someone?
If a 'glorious freedom fighter', as you called them, was punished for going after the wrong guy, do you really think that they would leak this to any reporter ?
Never said that the rebels in Iraq were choir's boys, but after seeing what the Coalition did there, they simply can't continue to affirm having the higher moral ground. Which they continue to claim again and again.
BTW, wanna compare the 'victims' on each side ? Last I know, there shouldn't be more than 2500 on the Coalition side, compared to the 100000+ dead on the Iraqui side. And you wonder why the Coalition has problem in this country ?
-
A fair enough point. However, it needs to borne in mind that these fanatics that commit the beheadings are (a) a tiny percentage of those you are fighting, most deaths have been either at the hands of suicide bombers or hit and run tactics. and (b) are as determined to find fault in America as their opposing equals are to find fault in them. That blindness will also make them ignore the fact that only a minute portion of the Iraqi population was tortured at Abu Ghraib, the word that makes the blood boil is not 'percentage' but 'torture'.
To them, the crime of omission won't be any different, because they don't want it to be, in exactly the same manner that the deaths of civilans who feel damned if they do and damned if they don't can seem 'justified' if you want to hard enough.
-
just becase they don't see something doesn't mean you can't
and there is a diference between claiming a high moral ground and claiming a less low one.
-
Exactly! Theres no reason why either side cannot choose to see the crimes of their own people. And there are certainly those, on both sides, that can.
But where America has a huge judicial system that can protect it's informants and give new identities if peoples lives are threatened and law & order is, for the main part, maintained, in Iraq, they have nothing, they have men walking the streets with guns, it no longer matters who 'they' are, American or Insurgent, and you are more concerned about getting home to your wife and child, keeping your mouth shut and surviving another day.
Iraq has a beleagured Police force, and a frightened population, the deliberate attacks on 'collaborators' are designed to stress that further.
I know that at least the first beheading wasn't commited by an Iraqi. As for how many of the others were? I don't know.
-
Actually the resistance in Mosul has been executing people they catch kidnapping people, try and dig up a link for it later but it was in washington post article iirc.
http://www.freearabvoice.org/
thats the site of the Iraqi resistance, anything major they put out will be on there. they fact that this isnt and its heavy use of leftist buzz talk leads me to believe its a pile of ****e.
www.informationclearinghouse is crap anyways.
-
Stop using the U.S. dollar
LMFAO
__________________
Diamond Geezer keeps up to date via the BBC News website