Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: NGTM-1R on December 17, 2004, 01:27:54 am
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...basically, as far as canon goes, are there any restrictions on intrasystem jumps?
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There needs to be a strong gravitational field present and nearby. (otherwise I'm assuming energy requirements for the jump are too high) So that limits the jumps to being in star systems or near other stellar mass (or higher) ranged objects.
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My theory is that subspace is typically a non-tangable realm, but the presence of a gravitational field in normal space results in a pocket of it becoming stable. Stellar mass objects generate pockets that encompass a star system, though if you have a series of star systems in close proximity, like in a globular or even an open cluster, the pockets cross over each other, enabling travel for some distance in intra-system subspace. Very high mass celestial bodies create a pocket of subspace that is faster than intra-system subspace (think 3rd-space from B5) and permiates an entire galaxy, but requires insanely high energy levels to enter. Long ago, a race found a way to hybridize the galactic subspace with a form of intra-system subspace in corridors that link up star systems. Travel in these corridors (jumpnodes obviously) is faster than intra-system relative speeds, but slower than galactic subspace. At the same time, the energy requirements to enter the corridors is higher than intra-system subspace, but significantly lower than galactic subspace. The species that created the nodes have long since gone, but their legacy is the means for all advanced races to explore the galaxy... and then get their tails waxed by the Shivans.
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^and you get this infromation from?
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Did you read the first couple words of mine that say "My Theory"? This is how I attempt to quantify subspace and the rules of its use we have become accustomed to. Where there are gaps in that information, things are open to speculation. As for why I think that inter-system nodes are artificial, its because they are too convenient. While this can in no way be considered proof, it is my theory and how I feel things work in the Freespace universe.
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does anybody know what an n-dimensional tunnel is?
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sorry, missed that first one, tend to skip the first few words sometimes.
an n dimensional tunnel is a tunnel with n dimensions
It seems subspace is an extrusion of normal space in 2 dmiensions, one looping around back into itself. The n dimensional tunnel part is weird.
what i gather is that ships traveling through subspace are moving along one of the major dimensions and are free to move along the dimensions of the real universe. the other major dimension of subspace seems unused, but probably integral in making sure it holds together.
It seems all the other (infinite?) dimensions of subspace reside partialy along the first major dimension, and partialy along the second.
Everything i got was from the tech room and animations, but peiced together in a way that may or may not be entirely objective(probably not the right word).
Basicly an n dimensional tunnel is a tunnel with n dimensions
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I've always worked on the assumption that the length of intra-system jumps is based around gravitational forces... i.e. so you couldn't just 'skip jump' between systems. I guess that gravity is used or acts in some way to allow entry into subspace.... I assume that subspace itself is almost like swiss cheese; you can jump anywhere within a hole/dimple intrasystem, but to jump between these dimples of gravity (inter-system jump) you need to find a tunnel between them; i.e. a stable node pair.
I think we have freedom to make up 99% of this stuff to suit ourselves, though.
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
My theory is that subspace is typically a non-tangable realm, but the presence of a gravitational field in normal space results in a pocket of it becoming stable. Stellar mass objects generate pockets that encompass a star system, though if you have a series of star systems in close proximity, like in a globular or even an open cluster, the pockets cross over each other, enabling travel for some distance in intra-system subspace. Very high mass celestial bodies create a pocket of subspace that is faster than intra-system subspace (think 3rd-space from B5) and permiates an entire galaxy, but requires insanely high energy levels to enter. Long ago, a race found a way to hybridize the galactic subspace with a form of intra-system subspace in corridors that link up star systems. Travel in these corridors (jumpnodes obviously) is faster than intra-system relative speeds, but slower than galactic subspace. At the same time, the energy requirements to enter the corridors is higher than intra-system subspace, but significantly lower than galactic subspace. The species that created the nodes have long since gone, but their legacy is the means for all advanced races to explore the galaxy... and then get their tails waxed by the Shivans.
That's all nice and well thought through...but it's stated somewhere that inter-system noodes are a natural phenomenon.
I'd say subspace exists everywhere and you could get anywhere given enough energy (read insane amounts of energy) to cross the barrier.
But occasionally a "flux" in subspace is formed naturally between 2 stars, which you can cross woth significant less enrgy requirements (read energy requirements low enough to be powered by fusion reactors)
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Originally posted by Col. Fishguts
I'd say subspace exists everywhere and you could get anywhere given enough energy (read insane amounts of energy) to cross the barrier.
But occasionally a "flux" in subspace is formed naturally between 2 stars, which you can cross woth significant less enrgy requirements (read energy requirements low enough to be powered by fusion reactors)
If that's true than it could explain how the Shivans seem to be able to get around without nodes sometimes (fs1: Ross 128, the Vasuda blockade, etc.). If they possess more powerful reactors than us, than they'd be able to do stuff like this.
Although if the fighters had a more powerful reactor, we might know about it from the captured Dragon/Maras (should be noted that the "great strides in fighter technology" could have encompassed this as well).
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Well...if I'd continue wildly theorizing, I'd say that opening a node is very delicate thing. And as we know there are unstable nodes (the inter-system tunnels form naturally, iirc somewhere in the tech room entries it's stated that some nodes inly last for milliseconds, others for years, and other over millenia), and the Shivans have much more sophisticated subspace technology so they can open nodes which are unaccessable to the GTVA.
But of course, everyone's free to interpret the little facts given, as he likes.
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Subspace, in mathmatics, usually refers to realms with fewer dimensions that ours (instead of 3, it has 2 or fewer). In effect, you use a subspace drive, you're slipping under the rug of the universe. I think that best describes what it is. I could be wrong.
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Well to answer the subspace question, lets discuss another question. If command captured Shivan Fighters, what would they find? First of all we grabbed their shielding technology, wiht some modifications. Now look at this:
In FS1 when we grabbed their Sheilding technology, sence they were able to inter-system jump Then; Why did they not figure out their engins, and grab that technology. They didnt and would have, they had peacetime afterwords, and a whole war or to to figure it out and impliment it in GTVA fighters and ships. So that conculds either that command blew up the technology on accidnet (likely) trying to figure it out, or the shivan fighters did not have the technology then. Unless:
If a captial ship inter-system jumped, maby theirs a.. a pocket around the main Cap, cause it has reactors to power the I-S jump; So the fighters if close enough could travel along too, in the bubble, and not use anything But their regular engin power.
How dose that sound?
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I dont know what your talking about, i suppose inter-system jumps without nodes
1: Command couldn't get any of the shivan systems to work, unlikely they'd get any data out of them
2: Fighters didnt have this capability
3: All research on shivan technology ended after the hades rebellion in 2336(or was it 2335?)
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Originally posted by Charismatic
Well to answer the subspace question, lets discuss another question. If command captured Shivan Fighters, what would they find? First of all we grabbed their shielding technology, wiht some modifications. Now look at this:
In FS1 when we grabbed their Sheilding technology, sence they were able to inter-system jump Then; Why did they not figure out their engins, and grab that technology. They didnt and would have, they had peacetime afterwords, and a whole war or to to figure it out and impliment it in GTVA fighters and ships. So that conculds either that command blew up the technology on accidnet (likely) trying to figure it out, or the shivan fighters did not have the technology then. Unless:
If a captial ship inter-system jumped, maby theirs a.. a pocket around the main Cap, cause it has reactors to power the I-S jump; So the fighters if close enough could travel along too, in the bubble, and not use anything But their regular engin power.
How dose that sound?
Ships have to vibrate / oscillate their hull at a certain frequency to enter subspace, so there's no 'bubble' of entry for escort fighters to use; all ships require a susbpace drive to enter subspace. Also, we've never seen IIRC a Shivan fighter / bomber make an inter-system jump, there's no implication a Dragon can anyways, and the GTVA had small scale inter-sys jump drives working before the end of FS1 anyways.
All I can imagine is that maybe you mean jumping via unstable nodes, but that's never been confirmed. Nor has which ships (the Lucifer, all ships?) can make these jumps, or how relatively unstable these nodes are / were; they may just be uncharted regions such as in Gamma Draconis.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Ships have to vibrate / oscillate their hull at a certain frequency to enter subspace, so there's no 'bubble' of entry for escort fighters to use; all ships require a susbpace drive to enter subspace. Also, we've never seen IIRC a Shivan fighter / bomber make an inter-system jump, there's no implication a Dragon can anyways, and the GTVA had small scale inter-sys jump drives working before the end of FS1 anyways.
All I can imagine is that maybe you mean jumping via unstable nodes, but that's never been confirmed. Nor has which ships (the Lucifer, all ships?) can make these jumps, or how relatively unstable these nodes are / were; they may just be uncharted regions such as in Gamma Draconis.
....though the said vibration is probably induced by a field the subspace drive creates.
If the field is sufficiently extended it can help/grab the nearby fighters as well - though it could be said that it only boosts or keeps the escort fighters in pack it can't take fighters into subspace on their own.
Why do I speak of this field? The reason is that we can attack ships entering subspace when they're already resonating on the apropiate frequencies.
So my theory is that projectiles/missiles coming close to a transitioning ship are partially aligned too thereby allowing them to still do some extent of damage.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Also, we've never seen IIRC a Shivan fighter / bomber make an inter-system jump
Yeah we have. They jump in through the Knossos plenty of times.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Yeah we have. They jump in through the Knossos plenty of times.
Not in FS1, I mean.
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Originally posted by Flaser
....though the said vibration is probably induced by a field the subspace drive creates.
If the field is sufficiently extended it can help/grab the nearby fighters as well - though it could be said that it only boosts or keeps the escort fighters in pack it can't take fighters into subspace on their own.
Why do I speak of this field? The reason is that we can attack ships entering subspace when they're already resonating on the apropiate frequencies.
So my theory is that projectiles/missiles coming close to a transitioning ship are partially aligned too thereby allowing them to still do some extent of damage.
The resonation isn't moving the ship into an alternate dimension (etc); it's opening a entry point (vortex) to one - the visible part of the ship is the part outside subspace and thus still in normal space and hittable. The actual matter of the ship doesn't change between real & subspace - only a vibration - so of course it would still be hittable.
Unless the ships hull is suitable modulated / vibrating, it can't enter subspace.... there is no evidence I can think of to suggest fighters, etc, can travel in 'slipstream' beside a larger ship.
"A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold. ."
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Also, we've never seen IIRC a Shivan fighter / bomber make an inter-system jump, there's no implication a Dragon can anyways, and the GTVA had small scale inter-sys jump drives working before the end of FS1 anyways.
There was a line in an FS1 CB after the Galatea was destroyed. Just before you head off on the mini-arc to retrieve the Ancients data from Altair, you're told that scientists figured out how to allow fighters to make inter-system jumps by monitoring engagements with the Shivans in Beta Aquilae. That implies that they were monitoring subspace activity the Shivans were creating by their activities, and that basically they were trying to find out how the Shivans were doing what they were doing, which by implication, would be inter-system jumps by fighters.
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Exodus. Nephlims made intersystem jumps.
Come to think of it, so did Vasudan fighters. They were able to do so before the Terrans...
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I noticed that too. Of course, the Shivans don't seem to be coming out of any particular node, so they may have already been in the system, but I doubt the Shivans have a destroyer in every system that they've got fighters in.
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i have a theory that that a regon of space with a black hole in it woud have huge amouts of subspace activity. it would in effect be a subspace hub linking to tens or perhaps hundreds of systems. it is also my theory that shivans make hives out of theese regions. yould also explain why the shivans want to hurry stellar evolution. id doesnt seem to me that the shivans primary objective is the destruction of all spiecies but is rather some breater purpose, and lesser spiecies just get in their way. its like all the earthworms that have to die when we errected a new quick-e-mart.
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Aren't intersystem nodes naturally formed at LaGrange points (0 gravitational influence)? Perhaps the movement of celestial bodies is responsible for the creation and destruction of unstable nodes in that case.
I think intersystem fighter drives weren't created so much from Shivan technology as they found out how to apply the theory of intersystem capship drives using a lot less power which only those massive reactors could provide.
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Originally posted by SadisticSid
Aren't intersystem nodes naturally formed at LaGrange points (0 gravitational influence)? Perhaps the movement of celestial bodies is responsible for the creation and destruction of unstable nodes in that case.
No, there's no evidence of that (the one in the asteriod field throws the idea out completely). There doesn't seem to be any particular reason as to where they form or for how long. The few that are stable exist that way for 1000 years or more, which hurts the idea even more. I think most, if not all, of the stable nodes were created by the Ancients and didn't really exist before.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo
I think most, if not all, of the stable nodes were created by the Ancients and didn't really exist before.
I'm believing that it was a species before them that created the nodes, 'cause why would the Ancients then have to create a massive device to stabalize a collapsed node? Why not create a new one that doesn't need a Knossos to sustain it? Even Bosch himself surmised that the Shivans had destroyed species that predated the Ancients. If the Ancients created subspace nodes, how did the Shivans attack those species with no jumpnodes to get around with?
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Originally posted by Eishtmo
No, there's no evidence of that (the one in the asteriod field throws the idea out completely).
That field could easily be in the trojan of a gas giant. That would have the effect of putting the node at a lagrange point.
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
I'm believing that it was a species before them that created the nodes, 'cause why would the Ancients then have to create a massive device to stabalize a collapsed node? Why not create a new one that doesn't need a Knossos to sustain it? Even Bosch himself surmised that the Shivans had destroyed species that predated the Ancients. If the Ancients created subspace nodes, how did the Shivans attack those species with no jumpnodes to get around with?
Maybe the Knossos does stabilize jump nodes. Remember in FS2, although the Knossos was destroyed, the Shivans were still able to come through.
Perhaps the Knossos was a tool the Ancients used to explore star systems using unstable nodes. They set up the little spinny things at the proper locations, turn it on, they start spinning and stabilize the jump node. Then if they don't find anything, they can turn off the Knossos, it stops spinning, and they can pack it up and go check out other nodes.
But the effect might be only temporary unless the Knossos is used for an extended period of time.
Maybe the Knossos even makes jumps take less power, allowing extremely long distance jumps such as the one to the nebula, which is why they were used.
This could explain why no other Knossos devices have been discovered in well-traveled systems. The Ancients continued exploring; they set up a Knossos and reached the nebula. Then they set up a couple more, expanding.
Meanwhile, in other border systems, they were doing the same thing, setting up Knossos devices to facilitate expansion.
Then they met the Shivans with their newest set of Knossoses and started losing battles. They shut down the Knossos devices but didn't have the time or reason to pack them up, being in a fight for their lives. Finally, all the Knossos devices were de-activated in an attempt to lock the Shivans out of the 'home systems'.
Unfortunately, the nodes were still temporarily stabilized and the Shivans continued onward, eventually exterminating the Ancients. By that time, though, the temporary portals had destabiized again, and the Lucifer fleet was stuck in our corner of the galaxy.
The nodes that are left are basically the core of the Ancients' node network, as all the others have destabilized from the outside in, having had no Knossos device to keep them stable for some millenia. (The Shivans may have even destroyed some to keep the Ancients from escaping.)
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Hmm, come to think of it, the freespace 2 knosos stabilised the node in a rather short time, a week probably. Then it was estimated it would remain open for hundreds of years.
hmm.
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I'd don't think the Ancients created subspace. I think the nodes are far, far older than that................. :drevil:
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*eye flicks to aldo's avatar*
I would've agreed with you. But after that explanation, I'm not so sure. I made such a compelling argument... :p
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My avatar? (http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/casofwar/heel/list.html)
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Whoa! Good update. :yes:
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Just a faint possibility. If the shivans were traped on our side of space. Maby we killed the last of them, drained all of them with FS2. Besides the few Sathys.
Also maby the sathys that jumped didnt make it out, casue they used too much power to lite the sun on fire, so they all died?
Faint possibility~
Whats IIRC?
The ancients had to be somewhat causious. The data that we retrived from the only remaining ancient planet, was said to be guarded by boobie traps. (hehe) What kind- anyone know?
Also, what defences did they have around their knossos and nodes? If their exploring they knew they gona meet new races, thus you would have protection. Right?
Maby there is a control that was destoryed, infront of each knossos? Or maby inside the spiny things, theirs a pannel that can be reached to shut it down, or to turn on defences? Or put up a forcefield which may have been built into the knossos?
Most of us agree, from what i understand, that the K.'s have a good power supply, and as said, when used from the other side, they use less of their power( the caps) cauzse of the knossos helps with the power necessity.
How did the knossos get its power? Generator or solar powered?
Any word on what the ancients looked like or the extent of their empire?
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Originally posted by Charismatic
Just a faint possibility. If the shivans were traped on our side of space. Maby we killed the last of them, drained all of them with FS2. Besides the few Sathys.
Also maby the sathys that jumped didnt make it out, casue they used too much power to lite the sun on fire, so they all died?
Faint possibility~
I doubt it; no race would commit all its resources if there was the chance it would be wiped out as a result. A race intending to supernova a star would make sure they had an exit strategy planned.
Originally posted by Charismatic
[BWhats IIRC? [/B]
IIRC it's If I Remember Correctly
Originally posted by Charismatic
JThe ancients had to be somewhat causious. The data that we retrived from the only remaining ancient planet, was said to be guarded by boobie traps. (hehe) What kind- anyone know?
It wasn't booby trapped; it was 'heavily defended'. Probably in a bunker-type structure (possibly underground, the planet had been glassed by the Shivans); it's unlikely IMO there were active weapons, though, because it was a group of scientists who found it (i.e. not trained to defeat or subvert weaponry)
Originally posted by Charismatic
JAlso, what defences did they have around their knossos and nodes? If their exploring they knew they gona meet new races, thus you would have protection. Right?
Maby there is a control that was destoryed, infront of each knossos? Or maby inside the spiny things, theirs a pannel that can be reached to shut it down, or to turn on defences? Or put up a forcefield which may have been built into the knossos?
The ancients had protection, though. It was a fleet of warships they had used to subjugate other races. It's wasn't enough.
Originally posted by Charismatic
Most of us agree, from what i understand, that the K.'s have a good power supply, and as said, when used from the other side, they use less of their power( the caps) cauzse of the knossos helps with the power necessity.
How did the knossos get its power? Generator or solar powered?
My guess would be it feeds of subspace energy itself; once, of course, after Bosch had used the Trinity to jump-start it.
Originally posted by Charismatic
Any word on what the ancients looked like or the extent of their empire?
The ancients empire was vast; far larger than the GTVAs current territory.
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I've seen shivan/terran/vasudan fighters jumping in trough subspace nodes alongside warships.
Now, we all know that system-system jumpdrives are hard to produce, state of the art thing and only SOC have those (sometimes).
the only thing that can explain the fighters jumping in is that a warship creates a field around itself that allows nearby fighters to jump too....
That, or simply that [V] blew it....
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
This could explain why no other Knossos devices have been discovered in well-traveled systems. The Ancients continued exploring; they set up a Knossos and reached the nebula. Then they set up a couple more, expanding.
Something tells me there wasn't a nebula in that system when the Anciants came. The Shivans prolly supernovad the sun, waxing anything the Anciants had there - colones, ship, stations, planets...
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Something tells me there wasn't a nebula in that system when the Anciants came. The Shivans prolly supernovad the sun, waxing anything the Anciants had there - colones, ship, stations, planets...
That something is probably wrong. If it was right, then there probably wouldn't be a second Knossos in the nebula.
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Btw thank you all for answering all of my questions (i hope they are good and not anoying you all, pm me if they are).
From what i hear, the A. were bigger, far bigger then the S.
The A. seems to be highly advanced at the time, and the S., from way before FS1, you can imagine, no shields, bad fighters just like us. So if thats all true, how the Hell did the A. loose to the S.? Were the S. too numerous?
Here is a idea that.. i bet many have not thought.
What if..
The Ancients created the Shivans. They made them, and kept advanceing them. Finally they got out of control, and defeated the A. from the inside or something.
-I see this as highly possible. Thus everything is in perspective (my perspective). Bah, i dont feel like re stateing my perspectives.
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Originally posted by Charismatic
Here is a idea that.. i bet many have not thought.
What if..
The Ancients created the Shivans. They made them, and kept advanceing them. Finally they got out of control, and defeated the A. from the inside or something.
:lol: it's funny because you presented as if it was a new idea no one had thought of, but in reality it's probably one of the oldest theories on the shivans that has been around for years, discussed hundreds of times, and is disproven by the FS1 cutscenes where the ancient voice over says they don't know where they came from.
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The Ancients "Discovered" subspace, depicting, that like ourselves, it was something we stumbled across that already existed.
Either Artificial, or Natural.
Either is easy to rationalise.
I'm kicking myself for not thinking of what the term for the focal point (which tends to be just outside the Oort cloud of a solar system), that serves as a form of flux focus between systems.
FYI: Char.
Before talking about stuff outside of the FS2 universe...
Please play the FS1 Game.
The Shivan's were not created by the ancients, as Carl states it's disproven by the videoclips in the game.
The shivan's were more advanced, about as advanced as they are in FS1 actually.
And we use Ancient knowledge (tracking into subspace, which oddly enough does actually corrolate to some of the theory work from the first reply) to follow the lucifer to earth.
Why they would need to 'track' the lucifer to 'follow' her through a 'jump node' that 'links' as in 'tubularly' to another 'jump node' to 'earth' from 'delta serpentis' (Forgive me if that's wrong I ain't played it in ages), I'll never know.
Unless it really is nth dimensional.
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Why they would need to 'track' the lucifer to 'follow' her through a 'jump node' that 'links' as in 'tubularly' to another 'jump node' to 'earth' from 'delta serpentis' (Forgive me if that's wrong I ain't played it in ages), I'll never know.
Unless it really is nth dimensional.
ummm, overusse of ''
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Just quoting out the Science fiction part ;)
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Originally posted by Charismatic
From what i hear, the A. were bigger, far bigger then the S.
The A. seems to be highly advanced at the time, and the S., from way before FS1, you can imagine, no shields, bad fighters just like us. So if thats all true, how the Hell did the A. loose to the S.? Were the S. too numerous?
Um... the Shivans had shields when the wiped out the Ancients. In one of the cutscenes, the voiceover says "in subspace they cannot use their shields". Obviously that means that the Shivans had shields then.
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Just quoting out the Science fiction part ;)
track, follow, earth, and delta serpentis are not science fiction words
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
The Ancients "Discovered" subspace, depicting, that like ourselves, it was something we stumbled across that already existed.
Ah, but it never says they discovered subspace nodes. :D
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Why they would need to 'track' the lucifer to 'follow' her through a 'jump node' that 'links' as in 'tubularly' to another 'jump node' to 'earth' from 'delta serpentis' (Forgive me if that's wrong I ain't played it in ages), I'll never know.
Unless it really is nth dimensional.
? It's the only way to overcome the shields.
Worth noting that there were multiple Lucifers or shielded Shivan vessels during the Ancients war;
[q]Act 3 Misc 2A
The records have been deciphered and analyzed. The language used by these “ancients” bears several similarities to the Vasudan language, lending credence to some of the Vasudan legends about their ancestry. From what little information there is in the records, it’s learned that the Ancient’s civilization was one very similar to the Terrans and Vasudans, and that they were likewise annihilated by a mysterious space-faring race that showed no mercy or effort to communicate. In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace. The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down. Unfortunately, the Shivans destroyed their fleets before they could exploit this device. Furthermore, the Ancients speculate that subspace nodes were quite fragile, and that combat during a jump would surely cause the collapse of the surrounding nodes.
Terrans begin constructing the tracking device immediately. They need to recover certain bits of technology from the Shivans to reconstruct the tracking device. The renegade Vasudans also have a piece of needed technology so there is also an offensive against them, requiring a showdown between the renegade and loyal Vasudans.
[missions involve the player’s forces trying to track down the SD fleet. It’s found, and the newly made tracking devices are readied for use. Unfortunately, the SD fleet is just one jump away from the Terran’s home systems. A large attack group of Terran ships is quickly assembled, and the SD attack begins as it makes the last jump to Earth.]
[/q]