Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: willy_principal on December 19, 2004, 10:46:07 pm
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i wonder...........what's the weaponry the GTVA ground forces haves........
the use laser guns like in the space?....do they use Helios-like bombs to do their air to ground strikes???
what about the marine??? and the air force???
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very interesting. They probably have really advanced battletanks, artillary, small arms, etc.... (kinda like in Starship troopers), and atmospheric advance fighter and bomber craft.
They might also have special concentrated planetly bombardment ships in orbit. Like when the US carpet bombed japan in WW2. I think they called it "high intensity area bombardment".
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in starship troopers marines use ballistic-based weapons and tactical nukes of the size of a grenade.....like in Halo (excepto of the pocket nuke thingy)
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oh i thought they used lazer weapons oh well, my bad. Still those tactical nukes were cool. ok then a bit like star wars, now i know they had lazer weapons.
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Hallfight gives you a fairly good idea what GTA (and hence probably GTVA) marine forces use. Projectile chemical-reaction weaponry. Guns, in other words, but big honkin' guns of like 20mm or more that can be fired fully automatic, from the hip, without apparent recoil. Maybe they're gyrojet weaponry, I dunno.
It's also possible that due to the fact they were conducting a boarding action on a damaged ship, they may not have been carryiing their normal weaponry for fear of accidentally punching a hole in the hull, and their normal weapons may be more powerful.
Most GTVA space fighters appear to have been designed with at least some atmospheric flight considerations such as lift, so I imagine they are used for atmospheric fighting as well. Considering the power of Helios and Cyclops bombs, I doubt they're used in an air-to-ground role.
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Yes, they had...I wonder why do the baddies of star wars weared that white metal-plastic like uniform...it had no protection against laser based weapons....and those were the only weapons available...(i think)
when does Halo and StarShip Troopers, happen (in time, what year)...notice that FS2 happens around 2360....i think those also happen around those dates....
entering enemy territorry (and unknown) with mediocre weapons.............i don't think so...............i would carry twenty men and really big guns...
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they could use a modified version of helios specifically for air to ground combat, eg, armor piercing, frag, etc...
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hmmm...may be.....
and what about the marine, the sea fleet.....?
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hmmmm, naval. I really dont know. maybe battleships and dropped in by a specialized spacecraft, or a spacecraft actually lands in the water does a little transformation (opening up main battery, closing bottom weapondy, shutting down engines, deploying propellors, etc...) and becomes the battleship. and just reversed the transformation when it's time to leave or is towed onto land or into the sky/space so it can transforma back.
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They hardly use Helios bombs in space, where they would be more useful.
I seriously doubt the GTVA has a sea force. Their ships don't have the kind of range limitations that today's planes do.
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They probably wouldn't use laser weapons on any planets. Laser weapons, or plasma weapons or whatever are a bad idea because of their interaction with the atmosphere.
More likely they'd use some advanced slug-throwing weapons, like railguns or something.
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what about normal chemical balliastic weapons, or a "mass driver" which works like a normal gun, exept it uses an electromagnet field to propel the bullet. (homeworld)
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My personal vote is for gyrojet weaponry. (Rocket-propelled projectile. Neat little idea, actually, neglible recoil. They actually exsist, too, the US Army experimented with them in the 1960s or 1970s.)
Lasers are still a possiblity in atmosphere. The range at which they would be effective would be reduced greatly, though.
The Helios and Cyclops are too powerful for atmospheric use. If you accept that the Helios is more powerful then the Harbinger (and it is, 3200 damage versus 6800), and the Harbinger's equivalency to TNT is 5000 megatons, a Harbinger is vastly more powerful then any current nuclear weapon. 10 or 15 megatons is enough to destroy a fairly large city, so one can imagine that a Harbinger or a Helios is gonna leave one helluva crater. The Cyclops is about two-thirds as powerful as a Harbinger, which makes it only slightly more manageable.
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The Harbinger originally was used soley for planetary warfare. That was before The Ursa came out though.....
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it was used for planetary bombardment, a.k.a. from space. you wouldn't use it on the surface. you would die.
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but couldnt you just load a harbinger onto an ICBM, then you wouldnt die. or launch it from a plane/atmospheric spacecraft.
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IIRC the very first command briefing describes them landing troops on a colony to fight the NTF; but when you think of the numbers, it's not all that much for an entire planet (300,000 or something?).
I think ground fighting, etc, is fairly rare for full scale wars; you can strangle and bombard a planet from space anyways. With the NTF, because it was a rebellion, it was possibly more necessary to capture ground cities, etc, with minimal collateral damage than (for example) the TV war.
I don't think they would have any navy, though; I can't think of a need for it, as they'd have space based carriers and possibly atmospheric 'hover-carrier' type deals to fill the role of aircraft carriers. I'd reckon 90% of combat was in the air / upper atmosphere when trying to capture a planet.
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600,000. The entire US military is around 2 million (unless I'm confusing it with their prison population!) so it's a fair few.
That's a lot of troops when you consider that Deneb was a contested system rather than one under complete NTF control.
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Originally posted by karajorma
600,000. The entire US military is around 2 million (unless I'm confusing it with their prison population!) so it's a fair few.
That's a lot of troops when you consider that Deneb was a contested system rather than one under complete NTF control.
600,000 for an entire planet? I think that's quite a small number.
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It's not as if these planets would have 4 billion people on them. Even if you settled a million people on them, and each couple produced 4 children in their lifetime, it would take hundreds of years to reach that number. And if you don't have that big a population then you don't have many key cities/areas of resistance, so 600k soldiers is probably enough to sieze the important bits (starports, government buildings, military bases). And then of course consider that the NTF probably has fewer or less well-equipped troops to start with.
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Like I said it was a contested planet. IIRC the population was actually largely vasudan.
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Well, if you recall the FS1 Ursa animation, it showed the bomber flying over the surface uneasing a hail of Fury missiles.
thus, if a brick like Ursa can fly in the atmosphere that means they must prolly use some anti-grav drive or something, since Ursa isn't aerodinamical at all, and I doubt it has any lift...
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FS1 Ursa animation...... i dont seem to recall that one...
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Well, if you recall the FS1 Ursa animation, it showed the bomber flying over the surface uneasing a hail of Fury missiles.
thus, if a brick like Ursa can fly in the atmosphere that means they must prolly use some anti-grav drive or something, since Ursa isn't aerodinamical at all, and I doubt it has any lift...
I'm not aware of any FS1 animation that shows the Ursa even flying, let alone in atmosphere.
EDIT; cb_fury has a small inlay animation of an Ursa firing missiles, but it's clearly against a nebula background.
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What are you talking about Trashman? Aside from that single scene in the FS2 intro, there is no endo-atmospheric flight in any of Freespace.
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Originally posted by Pilot Of The US
FS1 Ursa animation...... i dont seem to recall that one...
me neither. the only atmospheric flight i ever saw in FS1 was in the Lucifer bombaring Vasuda animation.
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quote: "the only atmospheric flight i ever saw in FS1 was in the Lucifer bombaring Vasuda animation"
Was that a cutscene or a command animation?
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cbanim.
EDIT; cb_vprime in root.vp
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Quote: "cb_vprime in root.vp"
Umm ive just had a look into the root.vp file and is no cb_vprime file in there.
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cbanim.vp, sorry. I had the wrong filenam and right vp name, then edited it to the right ani filename & wrong vp :o
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ok let me get this straight, the file is called cb_vprime and it is inside the cb_anim.vp. right?
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probably.
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I suspect that ballistic weapons would still be the norm for ground combat. Lasers have problems with accuracy and dissipation, and plasma weapons would be very dangerous for the user in the event of a malfunction. They'd probably be very advanced though - small caliber (perhaps 3-5mm or so), with explosive and/or armour-piercing tips, fired by magnetic fields - in essence, small railguns. You'd have higly accurate, long-ranged, powerful weapons, and the ability to carry lots of ammuntion, possibly of different types to suit the situation at hand.
There could be special weapons as well, though - plasma area-suppression weapons (like really nasty flamethrowers), and probably laser-based anti-armour weapons (like a big sniper rifle).
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Excellent ideas!!!
i conccurrrr
i wonder if they already developed optical camouflage and stuff (like Predator)
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they wouldn't have shielding for ground forces, would they? I tend to think not, because I'd imagine the simple physics of maintaining a forcefield (electromagnetic?) in an atmospheric environment are different to a a vacuum. Or maybe even gravity has some effect upon it.
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yes...........it's improbable that the marines have shields...they would need to carry a 'pocket' reactor to power it............it would be un-tactical.............
and what about the camouflage..........................they have already invented the optical camouflage, like the one Predators had...
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It all depends on the technology of the shield, I suppose. It could be some sort of EM field, as you suggest, or it could be a layer of charged particles suspended in a field, or it could be something else entirely. I think that shielding for individual troops would be somewhat difficult to implement - they'd probably have some sort of reactive adaptive armour, though - it does different things depending what hits it.
I think "chameleon" camouflage would be commonplace (armour changes colour to suit background), but full optical diffusion camouflage - like Predator cloaking - would be hellishly expensive. It might also be easily defeated by using broad-spectrum vision technology - using IR and UV goggles for example...
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Of course, the optical camo could have been outlawed by the (equivalent to) Geneva Convention; say if they common response to it was simply to scatter-burn possible enemy positions with napalm.
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you mean BETAC?
I'd think that using the guns on spacecraft would take the place of a sea navy. And some fightercraft seem atmosphere capable (ex perseus)
I'd say the weapons used in hallfight would be used only in space where gravity (or lack thereof) makes them more portable.
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Maybe... I don't think it's explicitly clear what BETAC covers.
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The caliburs have gotten bigger, though, judging by Hallfight. Somewhere around 80mm, maybe larger. The guns used made relatively little noise, a sort of humming, and had obvious power cables. They were firing subsonic projectiles, otherwise they would have been considerably louder. That partly explains the large calibur, since you need a bigger projectile to do more damage at a slower velocity.
The evidence points to some kind of magnetically propelled projectile. On the other hand, they produced a considerable amount muzzle flash as well, which is something a coilgun, railgun, or Gauss rifle would not do.
Note that the marine squad commander in Hallfight commented on the lack of gravity; they expected gravity when they went aboard and found none, so those weapons were perfectly usable in standard gravity, or even in higher then standard gravity (they couldn't know if the Shivans were used to higher-gee environments then Terrans and Vasudans). I suspect a simple form of powered exoskeleton is built into those suits. As I stated before, the only reasons they might have restricted their choice of weaponry (especially since they had no clue what they were up against) would be for fear of causing severe damage to the ship's internal systems, punching holes in the hull and causing an explosive decompression, or possibly the fear that the Shivans evolved in a higher-gee environment and standard weaponry would be too heavy.
Also, noting the Vasudan battle gear seen in FS1, I suspect they actually had better, more advanced technology for their ground troops: the Vasudans appear to wear a form of powered armor. It has power cables sticking out, so... It also appears to cover more of the body and be somewhat thicker then the Terran armor. This might also mean that Vasudan boarding teams (I think there's an Isis transport stuck on the front end of the Azreal you seen in the opening shot of Hallfight, but the picture is too dark to be sure.) would have done considerably better then the hapless Terran squad we saw in Hallfight.
Presumably, by the time of FS2, Terran troopers now benefit from Vasudan-type power armor as well.
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I would also go with ballistics. Since most pilots don't live past their first few fights, the guns would be easier to use. Since lasers would be to compicated for dumb people.:lol:
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
It all depends on the technology of the shield, I suppose. It could be some sort of EM field, as you suggest, or it could be a layer of charged particles suspended in a field, or it could be something else entirely.
They have something to do with subspace, we know that, so... layers of subspace or something?
anyway, a soldier could wear a shield generator on his back like a back pack. he couldn't have it be an all encompassing shield though, cause then he couldn't walk cause he'd be walking on shield :D
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Note that the marine squad commander in Hallfight commented on the lack of gravity;
Nothing of the sort ever happens, furthermore there is no resemblence of an isis on the azriel. Are you watching the same hallfight as me?
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Ok well. For shields, possibly the hand held frontal shield in the battle of Jar Jar binks, in star wars; But that would be too big. So maby sort of a small single shot reflecter, seen in Farscape, i beleive episode "Kings loss" or "Thrown for a king" (Man i spelled that wrong).
So they could still fire their bigger guns and have a small shield. But in Farscape they had some sort of drug or adrenalin that worked in their body, that boosted and amplified the drugs power effects, and ability to control it.
As for weapons:
Probably bigger and more dangerous weapons, like plazma and lazer. Heloids, a few times, which always ended up in a big loss, due to the creater they made.
Command. In 2381? when fs2 and fs1 was about, how did command think? All the FS people thought differently then we did now. They fought over deneb, they made secert agreements with the enemy, allowing bosch to escape, peace talks truned bad. Command were IDIOTS. God how many times they sent you on accident into death-traps, and forgot about reinforcements, or stalled them, for amusement. Command would have allowed dangerous weapons cause they didnt care and didnt think well. The good smart thinkers would be under a dumbasses command and his voice would not be herd. Um.. right?
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Originally posted by FireCrack
Nothing of the sort ever happens, furthermore there is no resemblence of an isis on the azriel. Are you watching the same hallfight as me?
I am. Funny about the gravity comment...I remember it quite clearly, but it doesn't appear to be there.
As for the Isis, there is something that was attached to the front end of the Azrael: it detaches. The shape is roughly that of an Isis, but the shadows are too deep to see detail.
Of course, Vasudan battle gear is seen in the Command Briefing cutscene, so the presence or absence of the Isis is immaterial.
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Umm, a peice of debris?
Other than that debris the only other ships (not that debris is a ship) are the azriel, an orion, an elysium, a medusa and 2 ulysees.
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There are some Apollos that fly by; the Ulysess and the Medusa haven't been introduced to the player at that point in the game. Seems kinda odd the debris would just choose to pop off at that moment, especially since they seemed to have moved the ship to there; there's a bit of an Orion in the lower left corner, and I don't imagine they sent the destroyer to the site.
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Watch it again, i watched the first part atleast 30 times so far. At the start coming from directly aboe the screen is a medusa wich turns left and forms up with 2 Ulysees' an orion turns during the animation so at the start you see a bit in the bottom left, and at the end see a bit in the bottom right. The debris does not pop off at that moment, it is flying by the ship. There is no evidence to suggest it even came from the ship.
There are no apollos whatsoever in that scene.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Also, noting the Vasudan battle gear seen in FS1, I suspect they actually had better, more advanced technology for their ground troops: the Vasudans appear to wear a form of powered armor. It has power cables sticking out, so... It also appears to cover more of the body and be somewhat thicker then the Terran armor. This might also mean that Vasudan boarding teams (I think there's an Isis transport stuck on the front end of the Azreal you seen in the opening shot of Hallfight, but the picture is too dark to be sure.) would have done considerably better then the hapless Terran squad we saw in Hallfight.
Vasudan weapons tech isn't as good as Terran, though - says so in the FSRefBible IIRC.
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Hence why the vasudans only had terran turrets (wtf?) and no terran huge turrets.
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hey....i just noticed that in FS2...everyone are using terran missiles......even the shivans!!! WTF?...why are there any vasudan design missile...or something,,,
also, there are no "vasudan turrets" just terran turrets...
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Interesting. But there are shivan weapons that they use and we dont. Some red lazers, not sure on the name, but they use it and we dont. If you play single with cheets you can find it.
Thats a really good catch Firecrack and Willy.
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That's something I never particularly liked about FS1&2, is that except for primary weapons, each race used the same weaponry. Like Shivans using Terran missiles, or Vasudans using terran turrets + so forth. I believe they're supposed to just be the equivelant . . . like the Terrans have the basic anti-ship turret and the vasudans have one too which is different, but is more/less the same.
That's one thing good about Inferno, each group has different weapons.
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Maby il try Inferno some time.
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The debris either emerged from behind the ship or was on the front; it wasn't in front of it.
Aldo: Perhaps, but since FS is concerned with space-based weapons only...perhaps the Vasudans fare poorly in space but do much better on the ground? That would explain the use of Harbingers rather then invading and doing ground fighting. FS1-era ships can't conduct orbital bombardment.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I'm not aware of any FS1 animation that shows the Ursa even flying, let alone in atmosphere.
EDIT; cb_fury has a small inlay animation of an Ursa firing missiles, but it's clearly against a nebula background.
Really? It looks liek surface to me....
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Hmm...
Shields are probably unusable by troopers, reasons:
They are subspace based, probably a different application of a subspace drive. As far as we know that's still a huge thing - not something a human can haul around.
They would also need a reactor of similar potential to power the thing.
Some battletanks and bombers (airplanes) couls use them though, especially since the presnesce of a strong gravity field makes it easier to acces subspace.
Plasma weaponry is stupid - use flamethrowers they're the same. The only true application in Freespace is beams - they take the plasma directly out of the ship's reactor and then accelerate it in a particle accelerator. Proof "commnad we've initiated plasma core insertion".
....however said application could be more accuratly called a particle weapon then. They use protons and neutrons - neutral plasma - and accelerate them.
....now I hope you don't expect the happles marine to haul around a particle accelerator and a reactor? In atmosphere they are even more useless than in space.
Laser weaponry is also pretty useless since it wastes most of its energy ionising the atmosphere. However this effect can make for a good shockgun - ionize the air and use it as a conduct.
This would be short range and it would take at least a tank to haul around the reactor or the gamma-isotope source to power the thing.
Powered armor is probably possible with small-scale gamma-isotope sources + MHD generator or a pure high powered beta-isotope source.
Railguns are also possible using strong-beta sources, but they are relativly slow - subsonic as in hallfight or a couple of thousand of kmph. The isotope source is probably integrated into the clip.
....railguns do make muzzle flash - though you use an electro magnetic field to accelerat the projectile it still travels in a barrel, at these speeds the shell of the projectile will vaporise and ionize resulting in a plasma coating.
Of course you can use convetional barreless railguns, but they will be bigger.
The reason why the plasma coating is desired is cause it reduces friction in the air and stabilizes the projectile.
....and I have to agree that on most colonies only a couple of millions of people live.
....especially since the TV-War was the greatest masacre we can imagine. They used orbital thermo-nuclear weapons for heaven's sake! Can you go any further?
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Originally posted by Flaser
....railguns do make muzzle flash - though you use an electro magnetic field to accelerat the projectile it still travels in a barrel, at these speeds the shell of the projectile will vaporise and ionize resulting in a plasma coating.
Not at subsonic velocities like in Hallfight it won't.
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What?!?!!?...
Thermo Nuclear bombs launched from space...where did you read that?
That's what i call, a MASSACRE!!!
a dozen of them could easily render a planet useless...
(except if those where the new 'clean' bombs....fission-fussion, 95% less radiation than normal fission-only nuclear bombs )
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The big bombs we used like the Harbingers were adapted from the planetary assault version.
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Flaser: How the hell does a "barrel-less railgun" work? :wtf: The magnets are the barrel.
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Originally posted by willy_principal
What?!?!!?...
Thermo Nuclear bombs launched from space...where did you read that?
That's what i call, a MASSACRE!!!
a dozen of them could easily render a planet useless...
(except if those where the new 'clean' bombs....fission-fussion, 95% less radiation than normal fission-only nuclear bombs )
Well, there's a strong hint in the FSRefBible that bombs were used against civvie targets (albeit not ground based ones) during the TV war;
[q]
GTM - N1 HARBINGER
Fusion bomb surrounded by 3 salted fission bombs; propulsion unit is a half-size version of a regulation GTA fighter thruster (Class II); given the weight of the payloads, the missile is slow despite the power of the thruster; as the Harbinger is exceptionally large, GTA fighters and bombers are limited to carrying 2 of these weapons at any given time; the resultant shock wave from this weapon is potentially deadly, due to the size of the payloads (5000 Mt in total); use near allied installations or allied ship groupings is strongly discouraged by the GTA; most effective when used in preemptive defensive strike against non-military installations.
[/q]
(this presumably applies to strikes on Vasudan installations; the Shivans simply don't have anything that would apply here)
And, of course, the Lucifer bombarded Vasuda prime to dust;
[q]
COMMAND BRIEFING 2
Destruction of Vasuda Prime
This brings me to the reason for this briefing. As some of you may have already heard, shortly after the destruction of the Galatea at nineteen-hundred last night, we received word that the Shivan Lucifer made the jump to Vasuda Prime. The Lucifer fleet bombarded Vasuda Prime from orbit for thirteen hours straight.
COMMAND BRIEFING 3
Aftermath of Vasuda Attack
Most escaping transport ships were destroyed. All major Vasudan cities were leveled, and most of the landmass was rendered uninhabitable. All of our attacks launched from the nearby installations were defeated.
We have lost contact with all Terran ships in the area, but it appears that the Shivan fleet has now moved on. It's estimated that four billion innocent Vasudans lost their lives in the attack.
Terran Command is preparing to help evacuate all survivors to other habitable worlds in the area.
[/q]
EDIT;
[q]New Technology: Harbinger Bomb
The Harbinger will assist us greatly in any attacks against capital ships. Until recently, Harbingers were reserved for planetary attacks only. With this project nearing completion, we may be able to finally defeat the Lucifer.[/q]
There you go; a 2500MT bomb used for planetary attacks (the 5000MT figure above applies to the payload of 2 which a GTVA ship is limited to carrying)
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2500 MegaTons!!!
Hiroshima was...what? 2.5 MT....i think even less....
Anyway...looks like the harbinger bomb is relatively clean...around 70% less radiation than common nuclear bombs...
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But it's salted, so wouldnt that mean more fallout?
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The Hiroshima bomb was 12 Kilotonnes. The biggest warhead ever detonated was Ivan, a 50Megatonne fusion bomb that was dropped by the Russians in 1961. See the info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba
The Harbinger and Cyclops (never mind the Helios) are magnitudes more powerful than the largest weapon yet built. A bombardment of these warheads would effectively raze a planet's surface in a short time.....
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errr...........what does it means that it's salted.......
and what's more 'fallout'? power? radiation?
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FS bombs are hardly suitable for tactical strike use; Furies and Tempests are probably the way to go for that.
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****....i have to go to some English Academy..............it's the thenth time in the week that i don't know the meaning of an englissh word.......
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Hmmm, fallout is that huge mushroom cloud that you see. It contain some very nasty stuff. The winds blow this cloud around and it can settle many hundreds of kilometers away. Sometimes even across whole countries and neighboring ones aswell. This is called fallout. (i think)
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Fallout: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout
Radioactive particles resulting from a nuclear explosion. They are very small, so the blast and wind can carry them for thousands of miles before they fall to the ground. Nasty stuff.
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ioh.........then.........fallout.......is radiation.........
fission emits radiation...
fussion not...
but the Harbinger is a fission-fussion bomb....
first........the fission part explodes till the temperature is so high, then the fussion comes off and delivers most of the power.......or............something........
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You still get fallout from fusion bombs - all the tiny bits of bomb casing (and any stuff that gets sucked into the fireball) may be thrown out as fallout.
Modern nukes are all fission-fusion bombs. Check wikipedia for the details. :)
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there are no purely Fussion bombs...they need a fission first to initiate the fussion reaction...
But fussion itself doesn't produce the nasty thing called radiation...that's why it's so good...
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yes it does, just not nuclear waste.
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Salted means it's sourounded by extra radioactive material that gets spread all over the place when tyhe bomb goes boom.
Fusion does produce radiation, in the form of neutrons and photons. It just doesnt produce nucleuar wase (as above) and all the radiation release happens at the time of detonation, there is none( (or verry little) falout.
Falout form a pure fusion bomb would probably be generated only in a groundburst where molecules on the ground are bombarded by neutroms (made radioactive) then lifted up and spread about by cinvection currents from the big boom.
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Interesting..
I guess i never realized the tragity of vasuda prime. Their home planet wasted.. everyone hunted down.. god thats ruthless. By the way.. in the T-V war, what planets did We have that were populated or civilians on in mass numbers? Besides Sol.
Also.. did the Vasudans use orbital nuke attacks on us too? Where did most of our casulitys come from if they didnt reach sol?
We shouldent have had that much time to get that many civilians\military bases on systems already..
whats up with that?