Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: High Max on January 03, 2005, 02:27:34 pm
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;-)
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No one knows.
They wer alot more fearsome in FS1, though. Those cbanims of hundreds of scorpions leaving the Lucy... :shaking:
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Originally posted by High Max
I wonder how widespread the Shivans are. Who knows how many systems they occupy compared to the GTVA and how large there ships may get. How many different classes of bombers, fighters and other warships do they have? How old there ships are and how long the Shivans have been in existence.
Absolutly no information on this one way or the other. :D The only cannon info that is at all related is that the Ancients encountered a race that may or may not have been the Shivans 8000 years ago (but most likely was).
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We have to assume that they occupy at least as much space as the Ancients at their peak, probably considerably more.
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Originally posted by High Max
I wonder how widespread the Shivans are. Who knows how many systems they occupy compared to the GTVA
Shivans don't occupy systems.
How many different classes of bombers, fighters and other warships do they have? How old there ships are and how long the Shivans have been in existence.
More than you could probably ever see in your life. Age and time are irrelevant.
The alliance may have sealed off the Shivans but if the Shivans are truly the masters of subspace, then the GTVA would never be able to perminently be safe from the Shivans (They could just create a jump gate at anytime).
The GTVA never will be safe from the Shivans as in "out of their reach".
Also, it says in FS2 that maybe in decades, we will be able to restore contact with Earth and open weak and unstable jump nodes that lead to other parts of the galaxy. Maybe this is were the Shivans would meet up with the GTVA once again.
Unlikely. But the completion of the gate will be prevented, before mankind can sign its own doom.
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The shivans can't build jump gates....the Ancients do...........and shivan do not assimilate other civilization's technologies..........and they do not research new thechnologies.......
The shivans are god-like.............so superior that the fighting with us is like a game for them...
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Aye. That's exactly what he said. Whether we can take that as canon or not, I dunno. Alpha one wasn't a philosopher or a cultural expert on the shivans, he was just an out-of-work fighter pilot.
As for the rest, we don't know. The Shivans don't seem to occupy any systems, but they do have a never ending train of supplies and warships and new shivans.
Furthermore, the shivans do seem to be taking a 'no more then is actually neccessary' approach. They could easily have sent in those Satanai immediately after discovery of the knossos if not during the great war, but they didn't. Heck, go play through Their finest hour again. Despite that the shivans have hundreds of juggernaughts in system, they don't send one out to trash the collusus until after you've destroyed 3 cruisers and a Ravana class destroyer.
All things considered, it's possible even the giant juggernaut fleet was nothing more then a shivan science expedition to study the effects of supernovas or local subspace or whatnot, and their real military is still at home.
At any rate, the only sound advice to be given on shivan technology and size is, "Never say 'we'll show them what firepower' is all about'. Cause you won't."
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The Inferno team has done a lot of things that are not necessarily "true".
The Shivans do not need jump gates. You are wrong about the Sathanii though, because actually, they did fly through a "node", and it wasn't precisely an inter-system jump as well.
And yes, those were the exact words of the narrator in FS1's ending cutscene. But the important part is:
I’m told we can expect them again.
But not in my lifetime.
Such is liberation.
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Remember The Shivans are the universe's antibodies and WE (GTVA) are the Virus...
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its more like the Shivans appeared to have created an entirely new node out of the star...hence the subspace pulse we saw, and the resulting explosion.
If subspace nodes are related directly to gravity, then it seems that the Shivans affected the gravity of the star somehow, causing it to pull an exit point into subspace just above it. The side effect however, was the shifting in gravity such that the star collapsed on itself and caused a supernova.......
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Of course, Lightspeed, much of what you have said is also not true.
Shivans don't occupy systems.
Yes, they do. The Shivans are and were in the system, therefore the Shivans are occupying the system. They were occupying the system past the second Knossos, they were occupying the nebula.
The GTVA never will be safe from the Shivans as in "out of their reach".
Except of course for now, while they're on the other side of the collapsed Capella nodes. The Sathanas fleet may not have been interested in killing off the GTVA, but the rest of them sure were.
Unlikely. But the completion of the gate will be prevented, before mankind can sign its own doom.
Completely your own opinion.
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They just don't like us using sub-space. As to thier numbers, well I would say infinite would be suitible. Everyone agree?
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i can say in one word exactly HOW many shivans there are..
"Lots"
:p
as for tech... well, i'm gathering by the sheer number of sath juggernaughts, that, they have a ****load of resources at their disposal, and that they could have ships bigger than planets on hand. ..
just my two cents.
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Except of course for now, while they're on the other side of the collapsed Capella nodes. The Sathanas fleet may not have been interested in killing off the GTVA, but the rest of them sure were.[/B]
Wrong... the Shivans have other avenues of entry into GTVA space. Ross 128 being the first, but they may have come in through Ikeya during FS1. They don't have to come from Capella.
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Yes, they do. The Shivans are and were in the system, therefore the Shivans are occupying the system. They were occupying the system past the second Knossos, they were occupying the nebula.
They didn't occupy anything they just did gather their fleet's
he Inferno team has done a lot of things that are not necessarily "true".
and what is "true".? we really don't know lot things about Shivan's just some info in FS1&2
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[Edit] NVM.
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But we've never seen a Shivan installation or been led to believe that they would have constructed them anywhere. A ship the size of the Sathanas, especially since their ZPE tech gives them a near-infinite energy supply, could have everything that the Shivans need for their day to day needs. Besides, they are so alien, they may not have to carry their plumbing with them wherever they go, like we do.
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Uhhh... not so many replies at once, gah! :p
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Yes, they do. The Shivans are and were in the system, therefore the Shivans are occupying the system. They were occupying the system past the second Knossos, they were occupying the nebula.[/B]
Says who? It's a canon fact that Shivans do NOT occupy any systems. They merely take control of the jump nodes.
Except of course for now, while they're on the other side of the collapsed Capella nodes.
And that makes the GTVA out of the Shivan's reach how?
Remember where the Shivans first arrived, and you'll see.
and what is "true".? we really don't know lot things about Shivan's just some info in FS1&2
That "info" is more than you think. Its more than enough to discard a lot of things as wrong.
I doubt bigger than planets. That would take way too long to build and it would have to serve a good purpose. If there was something in the Shivans' arsenal that was bigger than a planet, then it would probably be an installation or an artificial planet.
Time is such an irrelevant parameter; you're thinking along an extremely Terran line of thought concerning that. Neither would it serve the reasons you named, because Shivans do not have any necessity for something as planets, let alone installations.
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Originally posted by willy_principal
The shivans can't build jump gates
Shivan gates doesn't fit in with my image of the Shivans. More likely they would engineer their ships with better jump drives or something.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Says who? It's a canon fact that Shivans do NOT occupy any systems. They merely take control of the jump nodes.
The area around the jump nodes is in the system. They do occupy systems, but not whole systems, just parts.
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They do occupy [whole] systems, but not whole systems
Do I smell a contradiction there (systems = whole systems)?
There is a difference between taking control of the jumpnodes and controlling the system.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Do I smell a contradiction there (systems = whole systems)?
There is a difference between taking control of the jumpnodes and controlling the system.
Er...
If you control all the entrances and exits to the system, then you control the system. Do you not?
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If your in your kitchen you occupy your house. You cant occupy the kitchen but not the house.
And as goober said in his misordered post.
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It is usually pretty signifigant to make note of context when arguing about word usage. Occupied, in the context being used here, is fairly clearly refering to the millitary usage of the term, not the common usage of the term. The shivans occupy systems in the common sense, but not in the military sense, as they don't take control over planets or resources or populations. A force needs to more then just powerful and there to be an occupying force.
Nor does controlling all entrances and exits to a place mean you control the place. If I had quite firm control over all the entrances to exits to my pants, but there were three dozen angry wasps in them, in control would not be the words I'd use to describe my situation.
As for the rest....ah, who knows. We don't have any confirmable data on the shivans actual total military or industrial strength, and any attempts to apply logic to the shivans are doomed to failure.
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Originally posted by High Max
Actually, age and time is relevent. By knowing how long the Shivans have been in existance, let alone being a space-faring race, one can then accurately guess the potential size and power of the Shivans entire arsenal. Not only this, I'm probably not alone when I say that I'm interested in knowing how long the Shivans have been a space- faring race. Bosch says, "what if there have been countless races, stretching back into infinity, and like the 9 cities of Troy, each were built over the rubble of the one that came before. Each, annihilated by the Shivans."
Bosch is a very clever mind. Insane, but intelligent. You still think along a wrong line. Age and time have absolutely no importance, for they have absolutely no meaning when talking about the Shivans. Bosch maybe doesn't even suspect how close his comment is to truth.
However I don't believe that the Shivans are as old as time. Obviously, the Shivans were constructed by another species and we all know that no matter how large the arsenal may appear, all have limits. Meaning that even the Shivans have a limited number of constructions. Perhaps Shivan space surrounds their creators' space. You never know. A symptom of a bigger problem. Also, it says in the tech database that Shivans were likely constructed be another entity.
Shivans are not as old as time. Simply because the usage of the word "time" when we speak about Shivans, has, in itself no meaning. The Shivans were not constructed by any other species; rather they're a cybernetically "modified" living entity. The number of Shivans, as you'd describe it is, of course, limited (or they'd fill the whole universe, hmm?). The Shivans are not surrounding any space, because simply, they don't care for systems and planets, hence do not occupy space as such. If you study the game content closely, you'll notice that this claim about the Shivans being constructed is not made until FS2. The GTVA has a very VERY bad knowledge about Shivans, or even the Great War. What little knowledge had been gathered about the Shivans got lost in the Hades Rebellion. However, if you want to put it this way, Shivans are a symptom of a bigger problem, yes.
It is usually pretty signifigant to make note of context when arguing about word usage. Occupied, in the context being used here, is fairly clearly refering to the millitary usage of the term, not the common usage of the term. The shivans occupy systems in the common sense, but not in the military sense, as they don't take control over planets or resources or populations. A force needs to more then just powerful and there to be an occupying force.
Bingo. Shivans do not control systems. Controlling systems means actually covering the area, making it important to have installations or planets under control, while taking control of the jumpnodes merely requires a few ships/blockades among the nodes. Now imagine the size of an average system and think about how "controlled" it is.
As for the rest....ah, who knows. We don't have any confirmable data on the shivans actual total military or industrial strength, and any attempts to apply logic to the shivans are doomed to failure.
Any attempts to apply logic from a human point of view, yes.
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That's something that has confuzzled me for a little while. If the shivans have no interest in planets, or systems, why on earth did they Glass Vasuda Prime?
Were the Vasudans experimenting with Subspace weaponry?
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The shivan's weren't interested in Vasudan prime - but they were real, real interested in killing all the Vasudans.
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They kill off any species advanced enough to use subspace, isn't that right? Vasudans had suspace tech, so they tried to wipe them out. Same happened to the Ancients, and the Lucy was on it's way to do the same to Earth.
Or you could think about the Reciprocity story - that there was something on Vasuda Prime that they had to destroy, and there is still something on Earth because the Lucifer failed. Whether or not it's beasties ramains to be seen...
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
They kill off any species advanced enough to use subspace, isn't that right? Vasudans had suspace tech, so they tried to wipe them out. Same happened to the Ancients, and the Lucy was on it's way to do the same to Earth.
Or you could think about the Reciprocity story - that there was something on Vasuda Prime that they had to destroy, and there is still something on Earth because the Lucifer failed. Whether or not it's beasties ramains to be seen...
EDIT: bollocky-bollocks, stupid time dilation
To be fair, the Reci story was stupid in that respect.... the Nightmares would have just wiped out all life on said planets, so I needed to work in a bit of iffy storylining to explain why they hadn't.
That whole aspect was to explain the attacks as being part of the war vs the nightmares, really.... oh, and the Lucifer was heading for Mars, not Earth. One Reci mission was intended to take place in the Marianas trench before a Nightmare ship erupted from it.
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Originally posted by phatosealpha
It is usually pretty signifigant to make note of context when arguing about word usage. Occupied, in the context being used here, is fairly clearly refering to the millitary usage of the term, not the common usage of the term. The shivans occupy systems in the common sense, but not in the military sense, as they don't take control over planets or resources or populations. A force needs to more then just powerful and there to be an occupying force.
Nor does controlling all entrances and exits to a place mean you control the place. If I had quite firm control over all the entrances to exits to my pants, but there were three dozen angry wasps in them, in control would not be the words I'd use to describe my situation.
If you have a dozen Sathanases (that chrused any ship they see) controling all the nodes in the system then you ARE in fact controling the system.
What can the few misely ships that are left in it (IF there are any left) or hte loca lpopulace do? If you are powerless and at the mercy of the enemy who keeps you loked in your house, then he IS controling your house..
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Originally posted by Raa
That's something that has confuzzled me for a little while. If the shivans have no interest in planets, or systems, why on earth did they Glass Vasuda Prime?
Think of the best way to shatter a species' fighting spirit and hopes.
Maybe the Shivans are a weapon created by another entity and the guardians of this species and are the first line of defense and offense for this almighty unknown species. You never know, maybe they were constructed by another entity. If this was true, it would make the FS2 storyline even more interesting, not to mention giving the FS series the ability to continue for a long time. If the Shivans were completely wiped out, then maybe the GTVA could fight the creators, if the Shivans have creators. It would probably take place in the 2600's though and if they kept making FS games then it would probably be in FS5 or 6.
Sorry, but no. Theories like this one have been discussed over and over again, in fact, so often it isn't even funny anymore. :)
If you have a dozen Sathanases (that chrused any ship they see) controling all the nodes in the system then you ARE in fact controling the system.
When, pray-tell, have you ever seen one of those Sathanii guarding a node, or even attacking anything? They serve only one single purpose there, which you can watch in the ending cinematics.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Think of the best way to shatter a species' fighting spirit and hopes.
Yes, but that only strengthened their hatred for the Shivans in the second great war. Hell, while the terran arm of the GTVA was off killing itself, the Vasudans were the ones holding the Shivans at bay in the Nebula. Where they not?
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It has been stated, by :v:, that the Shivans are a symtom of a larger problem.
FS3 was supposed to be about the GTVA finding out what this problem is.
I'm of the opinion, personally, that the Shivans killed Capella to protect the GTVA from another, greater darkness that they are combating is the space beyond the nebula and that binary system from "Into the Lion's Den".
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Originally posted by Raa
Yes, but that only strengthened their hatred for the Shivans in the second great war. Hell, while the terran arm of the GTVA was off killing itself, the Vasudans were the ones holding the Shivans at bay in the Nebula. Where they not?
Yes, yes it did. However, that's actually 32 years later. Look at the Vasudans right after Vasuda Prime got attacked. Depression and pain always come first. Only then, hatred and revenge will eventually gain power.
@Liberator: Yes, the Shivans are the symptom of a "bigger problem". However, most people jump to the conclusion it must be a fourth species. Think about how the game is called - and how (if) it relates to the plot.
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Free-Space..two words......hmm..............hm............no idea....
They are fighting to have more............free space?..........................
dumb idea...........
Freespace is subspace, right?....then................
It's supposed that the shivans are sensitive to the subspace (or something)........then................may be when we jump through the subspace.........the shivans might feel pain....................
naahh......other dumb idea...
EDIT: the shivans are a sympton of a "larger" or "bigger" problem? (what are the exact words of V?)
well well, letsee...
a sympton is something that indicates a disease...
...then, who or what is sick???......the subspace is sick because, us, the Ancients???.......i think that idea is too simple, there must be something else that we missed.................
then, why the shivans seem to be playing with us?....why not to obliterate us in one strike..................like the Ancients....?
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Freespace, one word, is another name for subspace, that's correct.
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So what you're say Lightspeed is that the Shivan are defending their territory just like the GTVA is defending it's territory? That's too easy and makes the Shivans into less of a threat. They attacked us remember?
The Shivans could be a race of Von Neuman(self replicating) type machines who were tasked with protecting their creator's area of space. But in their diligence, they either killed their masters accidentally or they were wiped out by a plague of some kind and the Shivans are now unknowingliy guarding a bunch of tomb worlds.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
When, pray-tell, have you ever seen one of those Sathanii guarding a node, or even attacking anything? They serve only one single purpose there, which you can watch in the ending cinematics.
that was just an example. It doesn't have tobe a fleet of Sathanii. It can very well be Ravans or whatever.
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Ok ok ok. Liberator: Im interested in your thoughts. Thats interesting. The shivans protect us. But that dosent concur with Ross 128, or Vasuda Prime. Or either great war. Shivans are assholes, they dont care who uses subspace.
Freespace- many races fight for the right of space.
Shivans kicked our asses and could have killed us off. They have a nack fo going after the Population of the Home Planets.
-How did they know about Vaduda Prime, or Sol? Maby they have been there before.
If the Ancieents knew about how to stop the Lucy, then why didnt they stop it.
How did they know, if they had not killed a Lucy before.
Why did A. not kill off S.?
Id like to beleive the S. are protecting us, but why the hell did they kick our asses? After the first GW. they came Back. Why?
(I have a ton of stuff to say, forgot most of it, lol)
What is the greator problem then the Shivans? Have any statments or insights, Lib?
Shivans are very old and could have killed us maby. Otherwise us with our knoloage did hold them off 2 GW's.
Maby S. kill anyone off, who knows how to stop them. Maby A. knew more about the S. and their weaknesses, then was given or disvovered.
I tink the S were created by the A or some other race. Theirs a bigger race out there too, maby thaz why the S didnt wipe us out, and only spared a Lucy and a sathii were spared for ashort time, leased, to cauze a Supernova, then had to return. Why they didnt kill us, they at war with the bigger prob.?
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Cant deleite this for some reason.
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Double post, Charismatic, but okay.
I think the Great War was a kick in the pants, to give the Terrans and Vasudans a glimspe of what exists further out in space. If it wasn't they would've brought in the Saths and wiped everyone out.
The Ancients, from the sound of the monologues, expanded for thousands of years using STL ships and reaching at least a percentage of their empire before discovering subspace.
Maybe it had something to do with the way they developed math or something, since humanity developed subspace before moving out into the universe(we are a remarkably impatient species, we cannot(do not?) contemplate anything much longer than our own lifetimes, so designing a generational starship is right out)
At any rate, the Ancients lack of Subspace tech probably kept them from the Shivans' attention for some thousands of years. Even after they deved Subspace tech, it could have been many thousands of years before they caught the attention of the Shivans, as the Shivan could have been in another part of the universe battling the Unknown. The Shivans could have come, and upon seeing the faults in the Ancients(their lack of rapid innovation, an impossibly large empire) they decided to try the same kick in the pants and the weaknesses of the Ancients were such that they were incapable of discovering the weakness of the Lucifer before they had been obliterated. The Terrans, and to a lesser extent Vasudans, were saved by the last few Ancients who archived who knows how many thousands of years of research into the workings of Luci's Sheath Deflector.
The GTVA however, with the human's being spurred by the 14 year war(we're are at our best mentally and physically when in conflict) were able to put a large portion of the Shivan "kick in the pants" force with only the Luci being untouchable, thus blunting the blitzkrieg and buying precious time, which the Vasudan's used to decrypt the Ancient's legacy and defeat the Lucifer.
The Shivans would likely have stayed away, for a while longer anyway, except Bosch decided to let them know we were alive and then we blindly attacked them as soon as they appeared and they retaliated. And upon seeing that we had not brough our game up high enough, decided to close us off from the Unknown by fragging Capella(at the cost of hundreds of thouands of shivan lives) thus protecting the GTVA for a while longer at least.
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Well, I won't hold it agienst you. I know i have horrible grammer and spelling, and I apologise for it. Sorry all.
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The Ancients expanded for hundreds of years without subspace at first, hence why they were able to avoid the shivans for so long, as soon as they discovered subspace then the shivans became sensetive to it and sent a fleet to destroy them (i believe there is a camapign hosted here to do with the Nyarlathotep?) since this fleet may have started out on the other side of the universe then it cud hav taken 100's more years to reach the ancients space, then the ancients were wiped out becus they were able to use subspace and to the shivans perhaps subspace is sacred ground and forbidden to others,
and yes i believe some 1 said sumthin about shivans knowing where vasudan homeworld and sol was, of course they would know, if many species had been in GTVA space thousands of years before and the shivans wiped them all out then while humans/vasudans were still in their infancy, still cavemen so to speak, the shivans may have noted this on a passive scan of our planet during a battle with another race and simply stored it until the time it was needed. has anyone ever wondered by the way what weapon the lucifer used to thrape vasuda prime with? because (correct me if im worng) but the video sequence shows a big blue beam taking out a city on the surface....but the lucifer doesnt have any weapon tht is blue? unless it is some kind of advanced subspace weapon?
as for the 2nd great war, it only makes the plot thicker doesnt it, and the supernova may never be able to be explained, perhaps it was just simply the shivans showing another notch up on what they are capable of to warn humans and vasudans of and leave subspace alone before they encounter something greater than the shivans (hence the 4th race theory)
Bosch was brilliant in that he was able to see a different perspective of the shivans and actually tried to communicate with them, and as his monologue's hint at, he may be the only one who can save the human race.
As for shivan numbers, who knows, they have theoretically been around since 'the beggining' of time itself, meaning theyve had unlimeted time to do whatever they want, and also someone said somthing about shivans not building a large planet sized ship because it owuld take to much time?well when you have millenia to spare im sure you could build such a structure, true a shivan structure of such magnitude has ever been seen to say it but its possible, and yes i believe shivan subspace drives are advanced enough to stabilize or traverse unstable nodes as well as create temporary artificial one when the time calls for it (possibly using alot of energy hence why it rarely used) i also like the theory about the sathii fleet were creating a new node above the capella star, this would tie in with my 'show of strength' thing and also the using lots of energy thing (hence why 80+ sathii's were needed to genrate the enrgy)
....of ocurse, as many of you have pointedo ut, this is personal opinion only but i hope you like some of my thoughts
Dan
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If there is a fourth race out there. Then maybe the Shivan attacks are just a way of preparing both the Terrans and Vasduans of whats to come?
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I direct you to the Shivan Manifesto, until such time as my own theories are fully developed.
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Originally posted by Falcon
If there is a fourth race out there. Then maybe the Shivan attacks are just a way of preparing both the Terrans and Vasduans of whats to come?
possibly, again, speculation
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Originally posted by Liberator
So what you're say Lightspeed is that the Shivan are defending their territory just like the GTVA is defending it's territory? That's too easy and makes the Shivans into less of a threat. They attacked us remember?
If you read closely, that's not what I'm saying :)
They are not "defending their territory".
The Shivans could be a race of Von Neuman(self replicating) type machines who were tasked with protecting their creator's area of space. But in their diligence, they either killed their masters accidentally or they were wiped out by a plague of some kind and the Shivans are now unknowingliy guarding a bunch of tomb worlds.
Has been suggested a lot of times, doesn't get better with time, though. Just because this is a very popular sci-fi theme, it doesn't really apply to Freespace.
Charismatic: :wtf:
The only possible thing that I can think of would be a possible creator of the Shivans. I like to think of the Shivans as a secondary species that has been programmed by a creator to defend the creator. Kind of like a species in which its sole purpose is to prevent any other species from growing out of hand and expanding to to the point that these species could threaten the peace and existence of the Shivans' creators. Lightspeed, you claim that there is proof that I'm wrong but you don't know for sure (no one knows, not even me). However, some evidence is that in FS2, the GTVA know enough about the Shivans to hypothesize that they were likely constructed by another entity. Volition wouldn't put that tidbit of info in the tech database for nothing. FS2's description of the Shivans would have to be more the truth than FS1's descrption because the Alliance now knows more about the Shivans. Even Admiral Petrach said, "Even though we know our enemy better than we did 32 years ago, their motives remain a mystery". He admits that they now know more about the Shivans than they did in the Great War.
Read back, the GTVA knows LESS, MUCH less than the people did in the FS1 era about the Shivans. They speculate a lot of... wrong things. They ( :v: ) put it in there to emphasize how mislead the GTVA is, contrasted by Bosch's knowledge and assumptions. Let me quote:
As a young pilot I battled against the rebels of the great war, the Galactic Terran Intelligence whose research of shivan technology and biology would form the cornerstone of my project. The Terran-Vasudan alliance buried this knowledge but I resurrected it.
All the GTVA could have known and knew was either lost in the Hades rebellion and by repression in the newly formed GTVA. The techroom entry is there from the beginning, so technically the GTVA cannot know more than 32 years ago, because there were no Shivans to start with. If you check back with FS1, no such claim is made, and even in FS2 it's a "speculation". It is a fair assumption to say the GTVA is clueless about the Shivans.
The Ancients expanded for hundreds of years without subspace at first, hence why they were able to avoid the shivans for so long, as soon as they discovered subspace then the shivans became sensetive to it and sent a fleet to destroy them (i believe there is a camapign hosted here to do with the Nyarlathotep?) since this fleet may have started out on the other side of the universe then it cud hav taken 100's more years to reach the ancients space, then the ancients were wiped out becus they were able to use subspace and to the shivans perhaps subspace is sacred ground and forbidden to others,
The part in italics makes sense. The rest drifts off. MOD content, especially MOD content dealing with the Shivans, needs not represent the truth in any way. While Derelict stays on the neutral side, it still makes hidden asumptions. Taking hundreds of years to reach the Ancient's space is very, very unlikely, given the Shivans can simply travel through subspace.
and yes i believe some 1 said sumthin about shivans knowing where vasudan homeworld and sol was, of course they would know, if many species had been in GTVA space thousands of years before and the shivans wiped them all out then while humans/vasudans were still in their infancy, still cavemen so to speak, the shivans may have noted this on a passive scan of our planet during a battle with another race and simply stored it until the time it was needed. has anyone ever wondered by the way what weapon the lucifer used to thrape vasuda prime with? because (correct me if im worng) but the video sequence shows a big blue beam taking out a city on the surface....but the lucifer doesnt have any weapon tht is blue? unless it is some kind of advanced subspace weapon?
Unlikely. But it's not that difficult to track down the homeworld of a species. As for the blue beam, it's used for planetary bombardment obviously. And just because it's not "ingame" is no reason for it not to exist. It's much more likely that it's specifically one-purpose.
As for shivan numbers, who knows, they have theoretically been around since 'the beggining' of time itself, meaning theyve had unlimeted time to do whatever they want, and also someone said somthing about shivans not building a large planet sized ship because it owuld take to much time?well when you have millenia to spare im sure you could build such a structure, true a shivan structure of such magnitude has ever been seen to say it but its possible, and yes i believe shivan subspace drives are advanced enough to stabilize or traverse unstable nodes as well as create temporary artificial one when the time calls for it (possibly using alot of energy hence why it rarely used) i also like the theory about the sathii fleet were creating a new node above the capella star, this would tie in with my 'show of strength' thing and also the using lots of energy thing (hence why 80+ sathii's were needed to genrate the enrgy)
I shall say it again, time is irrelevant when talking about the Shivans. Per se, they did have all the time they wanted, and at the same time, no time at all. The high amount of Sathanii was necessary to make the sun go supernova (try it yourself, it takes quite a bit). Oh, and it's not like they created a node. Rather, they CLOSED a "node".
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
I shall say it again, time is irrelevant when talking about the Shivans. Per se, they did have all the time they wanted, and at the same time, no time at all. The high amount of Sathanii was necessary to make the sun go supernova (try it yourself, it takes quite a bit). Oh, and it's not like they created a node. Rather, they CLOSED a "node".
that was the point i was trying to get across, in OUR terms they have been arund forever and dont consider time so they would just do whatever they wish weather it be knit a jumper or build a planet sized ship, time is irrelevant TO THEM
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What dont you understand lightspeed? Why the
"Charismatic=...."?
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Does anyone else actually think Stryke 9's theory could be accurate?
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Oh, and it's not like they created a node. Rather, they CLOSED a "node".
That's an interesting assumption... IIRC, the Shivans have never destroyed a subspace node; in FS1 it was the Lucifers destruction, and in FS2 the GTVA sealed off the nodes prior to the supernova. The Shivans also - and this is pure speculation - never destroyed the Knossos gates, which would have been a first step towards destroying a 'gated' node IMO.
There's no evidence AFAIK that an external explosion - even a supernova - can destroy a node. Likewise, there's no way to tell whether a nova would destroy, 'switch' or create nodes by the gravitational shift.
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aldo has a point, the shivans have never actively destroyed a node intentionally, and as he said, as far as we can gather from freespace, a node cannot be destroyed form normal space, a ship must be at least partially in subspace or in close proximity to the vortex created by subspace in order to destroy the node aswell using a strong enough explosion....the shivans only destroyed one node and tht was unintentionally when the lucifer exploded while partially still within the sol node
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You know Lightspeed, you really need to start prefacing things with "In my opinion". You're coming across as very arrogant when discussing a subject the general community has long since acknowledged can't be answered properly by anyone except V.
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I figured it obvious that everything I write is from my point of view and interpreting the hints given.
Aldo: The gates were inactive though. Coinsidence?
As for opening/closing; The only facts known is that the presence of a heavy gravitational body (like the Capellan sun) is having a positive effect on a jump node. And we know what all subspace-related explosions caused so far :)
And also notice how I put "node" in quotation marks when speaking of the Capellan sun, because in our terms, we can hardly call it a node.
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...Capella - Sol node? :wtf:
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The supernova is a largest known release of energy in the universe.
The power it releases it uninmaginable (and my physics profesor, who works at CERN said it cannot even be calculated), and it effect the whole region of space.
Since it can level a whole system, and basilcy change every physical property of the space in it's "vicinity", it MUST have some effect on subspace.
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Supernova is not the largest known release of energy in the universe, it's gamma ray burts(GRB for short) by far.
The effects of a supernova on subspace is also doubtful, since the nebula missions DO exist in FS2, and it's only possible effects would probably be of distabilizing the node if any at all, which would in turn explain the knossos.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
I figured it obvious that everything I write is from my point of view and interpreting the hints given.
Aldo: The gates were inactive though. Coinsidence?
Well, that's completely unknown; unfortunately it's not stated whether or not the first knossos activated all others, or just itself. It's also unclear as to whether or not the gates were surrounding now-stable nodes (as with the GD one after the 1st knossos was destroyed).
Originally posted by Lightspeed
As for opening/closing; The only facts known is that the presence of a heavy gravitational body (like the Capellan sun) is having a positive effect on a jump node. And we know what all subspace-related explosions caused so far :)
Exactly. So we can't say that the Shivans have explicitly destroyed any nodes, only the star. But we can say the GTVA collapsed one node prior to the supernova, and the second afterwards (presumably; IIRC the brief states a destroyer is standing by to do so, it's not stated whether or not it actually does so in the 'debrief')
Originally posted by TrashMan
The supernova is a largest known release of energy in the universe.
The power it releases it uninmaginable (and my physics profesor, who works at CERN said it cannot even be calculated), and it effect the whole region of space.
Since it can level a whole system, and basilcy change every physical property of the space in it's "vicinity", it MUST have some effect on subspace.
The question is whether that effect is universally destructive, though.... subspace is an alternate plane, it's unclear how connected it is to the 'physical' world; what there is, AFAIK, is these stable rift-type-zones where it becomes possible to access a subspace tunnel between positions.
It's unclear insofar as I know what causes stable 'tunnels' to form; it would appear to be gravitational, so presumably a change ingravity would change it. But how, is an interesting question - would it destroy the node, create a new one, or re-route it?
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if i remember correctly, when a supernova occurs, the gravitational forces are phenominal and is the largest known enrgy output known, the only thing i can think of that could possibly counteract such enrgy is a black hole of a substabtial size.:nod:
Aldo is also correct, Subspace is not connected to subspace physically unless a jump point is formed and the only way to create a jump point is to create an effect where the ship vibrates in many different gravitational directions until it stabilises to the point in question (part explanation is in tech database of fs2 i think when discussing jump drives) so this ties in with my other explanation erlier that u have to have formed a jump point or be inside the node in order to collapse it, true the presence of a star's gravity may have formed the node and with its loss may make it unstable because it has lost the gravitational pull from it....hmmm these explanations could endlessly loop....
Just a thought though, has anybody remembered that you need the presence of a star or significant gravitational presence in a system in order to make a 'Intra-System' jump?..... if this is the case....then how are you able to do one of these jumps in a nebula that is the remnant of a supernova?
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hmmm....a little far fetched, i do not think subspace could be 'created' i think its just another layer of space thats all, it has been around only as long as normal space (in theory)
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Originally posted by dan87uk
Just a thought though, has anybody remembered that you need the presence of a star or significant gravitational presence in a system in order to make a 'Intra-System' jump?..... if this is the case....then how are you able to do one of these jumps in a nebula that is the remnant of a supernova?
You can see a sun in the background of the nebula missions.
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Subspace, in my opinion, cant be created or destroyed.
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Originally posted by High Max
This might sound stupid but is it possible that the Shivans are the creators of subspace? Without the Shivans, subspace wouldn't have ever existed? Can subspace be created or was it there since the beginning of time?
Subspace is usually presented as being a natural phenomenon that has always been there but that is simply the way the GTVA are looking at it. It is quite possible that the shivans created subspace and it would explain why they are so pissed off at everyone else for using it. Maybe we're not paying the toll fees or something :D
Taking this a little further. The ancients were subspace experts with knowledge of subspace far in advance of the GTVA. However they had already travelled to nearby star systems before the discovery of subspace. I've always taken this as a nice example of different races advancing in science at different rates from humans and vasudans but I'm not going to deny the possibility that the Ancients didn't discover subspace earlier because it simply didn't exist :)
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yes i know the sun was in the background on the nebula missions, but thats just because it was a default thing for the level, and as i said, how is that possible if the nebula is a supernova remnant?
as for karajorma's theory, it sounds interesting, the ancients were subspace genius's compared to vasudans and terrans, evidence is the knossos gate's. but like some1 said, they may have developed maths alot differently to us, and the ancients were more of a spiritual race, much like the vasudans but without the scientific qualities or needs. However when they stumbled upon subspace, perhaps there math qualities improved aswell as there military and it began to phase out there more spiritual qualties? again much like the vasudans.
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Shivan Manifesto. Read it and be enlightened.
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Originally posted by Jal-18
You can see a sun in the background of the nebula missions.
Yeah, but FRED automatically places a white sun by default if there isn't already a light source in the mission.
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Besides Capella is really a multiple star system. You'd still see stars in the Capellan nebula :)
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That doesn't disqualify that there is a sun in the nebula.
And as to why there would be a sun of this is the remains of a supernova: it could be a protostar forming from the nebula gasses. That's how all stars are formed: from the remnants of other stars.
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You missed my point Jal. I was saying that a star is not only possible but a very likely occurence.
As for a protostar forming that's also a reasonable possibility but AFAIK you wouldn't get one of those forming after only 8000 years which would mean that the shivans didn't create the nebula when the ancients were around to see it.
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Well in FS2 Capella only has one sun
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IF the shivans have a manifesto, we should get one to overroit theirs. We should claim supspace and kick them out, and make them pay tolls, just like Illionis $2.50 +, or a I-Pass.
Hehehe..
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Karajorma: sorry about that, I was typing up my post when you made yours. My memory's foggy, but where does it say the Ancients watched the Shivans create the nebula? And who says the nebula is Shivan?
High Max presents a more probable scenario actually, as it would also allow the Ancients to observe the Shivans blowing up the star and creating the nebula.
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Originally posted by High Max
If you play Warzone, the command briefing says that the nebula beyond Regulus is much what Capella would look like today, if we were able to return there. A nebula many lightyears in diameter with ONLY ITS CORE INTACT. Storywise, that sun in the nebula could be the core that is still intact.:nod:
Except that in the endgame cutscene there isn't anything left of the star, and supernovas don't leave cores behind, what's left is either a white dwarf, neutron star or pulsar, or black hole...
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hmmm....perhaps the nebula beyond gamma draconis used to be in fact the home system of the ancients? this would explain why the knossos was located there? and the other knossoss devices, the ancients said they could not stop the shivans yes? and during this being said it shows a picture of a sun yes? perhaps it is a clip of their own sun before it was detroyed by the shivans, its the ancients cutscene where they explain how they have the knowledge but not the means to destroy the shivans.
could be a little far fecthed but at a long shot? and Altair was just as far as they could make it while the survivors were running from the shivans
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Originally posted by Jal-18
Karajorma: sorry about that, I was typing up my post when you made yours. My memory's foggy, but where does it say the Ancients watched the Shivans create the nebula? And who says the nebula is Shivan?
There's no canon evidence on the age of the nebula. I was mearly pointing out that if that was a proto-star we could rule out the theory that the Shivans created the nebula to do the same thing to the ancients that they did to Capella.
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Originally posted by karajorma
There's no canon evidence on the age of the nebula. I was mearly pointing out that if that was a proto-star we could rule out the theory that the Shivans created the nebula to do the same thing to the ancients that they did to Capella.
The closest to evidence is the statement in Bosches monologue wondering if an ancient Pharoah on earth would have witnessed the supernova.
IIRC, there was a supernova - the earliest recorded I think - witnessed and recorded in Egypt in 1066 (in the Lupus nebula). But, that would still mean it was much older than 1,000 years, due to the time it took light to travel to earth.
If it was that nova, of course; no evidence that :V: even based it on a real recorded supernova.
EDIT; I think 1066 is too late, though; I got confused about the constellation being recorded by Ptolmy.
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Originally posted by dan87uk
hmmm....perhaps the nebula beyond gamma draconis used to be in fact the home system of the ancients? this would explain why the knossos was located there? and the other knossoss devices, the ancients said they could not stop the shivans yes? and during this being said it shows a picture of a sun yes? perhaps it is a clip of their own sun before it was detroyed by the shivans, its the ancients cutscene where they explain how they have the knowledge but not the means to destroy the shivans.
could be a little far fecthed but at a long shot? and Altair was just as far as they could make it while the survivors were running from the shivans
If the shivans did indeed create the nebula beyond gamma draconis, it would have to have been created before the knossos, because if a supernova can vaporise any vessel, it can certainly at least blow the crap out of a gate.
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:rolleyes: good point....:ick: i stand corrected :snipe: ;)
so that would mean the ancients discovered the nebula when it was still more volatile in theory? right? so why the hell would they buil 2 knossos devices in it!......hmmm so many loopholes:dizzy:
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Here is an interesting concept; what if the Ancients built the gates first of all?
(wild speculation alert)
i.e. they built this network of Knossos' (like Stargates) to travel the stars, and then stumbled across a network of existing, stable nodes? And because of this 'trespass'. the Shivans came and attacked them, first of all in GTVA space (the ruins in Altair).. so the Ancients pulled back more and more, shutting down the gates as they left. But the Shivans still followed, because they could rebuild the node.
Perhaps the node the GD knossos was already stable before the knossos was reactivated, and it was the attempt to reactivate that node which woke up the Shivans?
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again, the point of the supernova would make this theory void, the knowssos devices in the nebula would have been vapourised....unless they were designed to withstand infinity degrees lol
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IIRC, they only built one Knossos device inside the nebula, isn't Knossos 3 beyond the nebula?
If the Shivans created the nebula, it would mean that the Ancients were standing literally in the burial ground of another civilization before them, which would fit with what Bosch said about the nine cities of Troy, yada, yada, yada... (probably speculation, but still...).
About these issues one is left puzzled either by the lack of data given by V, or errors in it, such as the Capella supernova. The cutscene shows nothing left of the star, but that contradicts the nature of a supernova, which in turn leads to one of two conclusions, either V screwed up and didn't show the remains of the star (be it white dwarf, neutron star, etc...), or the shivan nature of the supernova made it... like it was shown. The nebula beyond Gamma Draconis (bGD) characteristics are linked to the Capellan one which are the following, the shivans created the nebula bGD or they didn't. If they didn't, than all is settled, if they did the Capella supernova puts some questions regarding the nebula bGD, such as "Is the star in the nebula an engine limitation or a previous star that stood in a binary system in that part of space?", etc...
So... we may never know...
(I just love to ramble :p)
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Originally posted by dan87uk
again, the point of the supernova would make this theory void, the knowssos devices in the nebula would have been vapourised....unless they were designed to withstand infinity degrees lol
Actually, you missed the really stupid mistake of that theory.... the Knossos was built going from GTVA space, not to it.
Whoops. :o
EDIT; unless the nova vapourised one and not the other (is there an effective range to a nova?)... but that's very iffy reasoning as the 2nd knossos wasn't in a pair, so there's no reason to assume the same was required for the first.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The closest to evidence is the statement in Bosches monologue wondering if an ancient Pharoah on earth would have witnessed the supernova.
IIRC, there was a supernova - the earliest recorded I think - witnessed and recorded in Egypt in 1066 (in the Lupus nebula). But, that would still mean it was much older than 1,000 years, due to the time it took light to travel to earth.
There's another possibility... the nova that created the Crab Nebula. It was witnessed in 1054 (IIRC) and also falls within the appropriate timeframe. I have to modify the page I made for the Wiki to account for it...
The interesting thing is that one supernova was type Ia (I think) and the other was type II. So we can decide between the two of them if we can agree on what kind of supernova the Shivans triggered. :)
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Originally posted by Goober5000
There's another possibility... the nova that created the Crab Nebula. It was witnessed in 1054 (IIRC) and also falls within the appropriate timeframe. I have to modify the page I made for the Wiki to account for it...
The interesting thing is that one supernova was type Ia (I think) and the other was type II. So we can decide between the two of them if we can agree on what kind of supernova the Shivans triggered. :)
A biggy?
It would have to be somewhere 7000+ light years distant to account for the Knossos, though. I'm checking justnow.
EDIT; the Crab nova occured in 5400 BC. Not got a date for lupus yet
EDIT2; http://www.earth.uni.edu/~morgan/astro/course/Notes/section2/past_sn.html
This, however is very interesting; http://rathnasree.htmlplanet.com/indian_records_of_the_crab_super.htm
Maybe a bit too subtle, of course, but still.....it's a curiousity (this page is 2 years older than FS2 itself, natch - so don't expect it to have had an actual bearing on the story :D)
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http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Lupus%20Nebula
I'll have to move the node links into a page titled "Nebula System" and make a new page titled "Crab Nebula". That way the reader can form his own opinion.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Lupus%20Nebula
I'll have to move the node links into a page titled "Nebula System" and make a new page titled "Crab Nebula". That way the reader can form his own opinion.
I think that page is wrong in stating
[q]We know that the Ancients built the portal that linked Gamma Draconis to the nebula, so we can conjecture that the Shivans caused the parent star to go supernova when they destroyed the Ancients' empire.[/q]
Because of the 2nd Knossos
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*shrugs* It's a conjecture. I'm pretty sure Volition meant for this supernova to have occurred during the time of the ancients... it fits in very well with the rest of the story arc. They just goofed with the second Knossos. :)
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so what your basically trying to theorise, is that the nebula is infact the 'crab nebula'? however, to contradict this, the GTVA would have surely realised this from astrolgical co-ordinates when they were able to get a bearing....also you forget that the GTVA beleive they were in another galaxy and had 'travlled firther than any other terran'
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They were not in another galaxy, but they travelled farther than any other terran.
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1) We're saying that the nebula could be either the Crab Nebula or the Lupus Nebula.
2) Who says the GTVA ever tried to get a bearing? They never told us what the binary system was. And if they tried to get a bearing in the nebula, they'd have to first figure out how to see through it.
3) They had travelled farther than any other Terrans, yes, but it never says they left the galaxy.
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ok ok point taken. i wasn't disagreeing, i was just...errr adding further speculation ;) .....
lol it does make an interesting concept thought doesnt it, saying that the shivans detroyed a star and it was recorded in human history without even realising it
Edit : i obviously dont mean in reality, i mean in FS terms before anyone thinks iv lost my mind or a mental patient (well im not one yet anyway :eek2: :shaking: )
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Except that in the endgame cutscene there isn't anything left of the star, and supernovas don't leave cores behind, what's left is either a white dwarf, neutron star or pulsar, or black hole...
First, are you (all of you) watching the same cutscene I am? There's this, you know, GIANT BRIGHT LIGHT that washes out any view of the remains of the Capella star. You can't say there isn't anything left, because you can't see to tell.
Second, what did you think white dwarves, neutron stars, and black holes were? They're the core of the star.
Third, there is a type of supernova that will leave nothing behind. However, it requires a binary system with a white dwarf.
I find it entirely possible the Knossos could have survived a supernova. The general wisdom regarding the location of jump nodes (with some exceptions) places them towards the edge of a system, and the Knossos proved itself incredibly resiliant. A meson bomb, point-blank, and a supernova shockwave at nine or ten Astronomical Units are probably not all that different in terms of damage.
The real mystery about the Capella supernova is that it was two-stage.
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:eek2: maybe we're all insane! maybe we'l all turn on each other and kill each other because we dont agree on theories before the shivans do it for us!! :shaking: maybe we're all right and we're all wrong :nervous: ........im not mad :eek2: ;)
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
First, are you (all of you) watching the same cutscene I am? There's this, you know, GIANT BRIGHT LIGHT that washes out any view of the remains of the Capella star. You can't say there isn't anything left, because you can't see to tell.
Second, what did you think white dwarves, neutron stars, and black holes were? They're the core of the star.
Third, there is a type of supernova that will leave nothing behind. However, it requires a binary system with a white dwarf.
I find it entirely possible the Knossos could have survived a supernova. The general wisdom regarding the location of jump nodes (with some exceptions) places them towards the edge of a system, and the Knossos proved itself incredibly resiliant. A meson bomb, point-blank, and a supernova shockwave at nine or ten Astronomical Units are probably not all that different in terms of damage.
The real mystery about the Capella supernova is that it was two-stage.
Watch frame by frame the cutscene, you will see (rather pixelized) nothing being left. Of course it could leave a black hole or something incredibly small to remain undetected, but it is unlikely, I will try to get a screen posted.
A white dwarf, neutron star or black hole were the core of the star but not anymore, were is the key word.
Then you are talking about a nova, not a supernova, because a supernova always, always creates a new star (black holes being stars also).
EDIT:
A meson bomb at point blank and a supernova have very diferent damage values, the supernova vaporised (not destroyed, vaporised) both corvettes shown in the cutscene, the meson bomb couldn't do this to fighters (possibly engine limitation, but still).
The supernova in two stage is intriguing, I grant you that, as I would have figured many more stages than just two.
Here are 3 screens of the event, they are rather pixelised so I ask anyone who has FS2 installed (I don't have at the moment) if they could take a few shots of the supernova scenes I would be grateful.
(http://www.geocities.com/ghostavo2003/csn1.jpg) (http://www.geocities.com/ghostavo2003/csn2.jpg) (http://www.geocities.com/ghostavo2003/csn3.jpg)
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I see a big white light with a slight bludge in the middle...which would actually make it more likely, not less, that it left something.
Originally posted by Ghostavo
Then you are talking about a nova, not a supernova, because a supernova always, always creates a new star (black holes being stars also).
No, actually I'm not. For your reading pleasure and enlightment, the Type Ia supernova: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/universe/supernova1a_nf_05.html
I would have quoted my Astronomy textbook as well, but I don't have it handy.
Hey, Goober? Write off the Type Ia supernova...they're distingushed by a lack of hydrogen lines in their spectra. A normal star would still display these.
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A black hole is out of the question, unless again V screwed up, if a black hole is indeed there, you wouldn't see any light coming from the proximity of it, if it's anything else non-black holish it's a bit small and too eliptical, don't you think?
Also about the supernova Ia type, it leaves a new celestial body.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova
The theory of these type of supernovae is similar to that of novae, in which a white dwarf accretes matter more slowly and does not reach the Chandrasekhar limit. In the case of a nova, the infalling matter causes a fusion reaction of material near its surface but does not cause the star to collapse.
Note that a nova does not cause the star to collapse, while the supernova does, and therefore, creates a new celestial body.
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since the CGI is inconclusive we cant tell
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If the Capella supernova formed a black hole, we still wouldn't know. It's not like the things going to be formed in 3 seconds, eh? ;)
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And even if it was, theres all that explosion in the way.
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It would still create suficient gravitational pull to stop the light from the shockwave which is going in the oposite direction to reach the hypotetical observer, or not?
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Probably not; Capella's not big enough for a collapsar. It has to go supernova first, then collapse into a singularity.
Referencing the Wiki, I do not see anything that contradicts my statement, but can cite multiple sources for it...
EDIT: And I quote the Wiki: The kinetic energy release from the burning causes the star to explode violently
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Then I'm probably confusing something... anyway, it's all a bit weird/confusing, seeing light is not instantaneous so trying to think what the pics mean/have...
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May I ask, Does it matter?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Goober5000
1) We're saying that the nebula could be either the Crab Nebula or the Lupus Nebula.
2) Who says the GTVA ever tried to get a bearing? They never told us what the binary system was. And if they tried to get a bearing in the nebula, they'd have to first figure out how to see through it.
3) They had travelled farther than any other Terrans, yes, but it never says they left the galaxy.
Not to mention the 2 other caveats; 'furthest in human history' doesn't (just) imply distance from earth (or soforth), it implies distance in subspace. For all we know - IIRC it's likely this is the case - systems in close proximity can only be accessible via long jumps. This is a fickle point, however - it's a matter of interpretation.
2nd, it's not clear how the GTVA tracks position - if it's by the position of the stars which can be seen, clearly they are going to have problems in a giant nebula. If the GTVA didn't know where they were, then it would somewhat support the idea the distance travelled was the jump length.
Originally posted by Goober5000
*shrugs* It's a conjecture. I'm pretty sure Volition meant for this supernova to have occurred during the time of the ancients... it fits in very well with the rest of the story arc. They just goofed with the second Knossos. :)
I doubt it; it's a pretty blatant mistake to make - I'd be surprised if they could put all the nuances of, for example, Bosches monologues and then screw up that particular detail.
I think there may be an implication the Ancients travelled through that supernova remnant - and that was where they overstepped their bounds, by travelling through nodes which may have previously been accessible only to the Shivans.
Maybe.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
I find it entirely possible the Knossos could have survived a supernova. The general wisdom regarding the location of jump nodes (with some exceptions) places them towards the edge of a system, and the Knossos proved itself incredibly resiliant. A meson bomb, point-blank, and a supernova shockwave at nine or ten Astronomical Units are probably not all that different in terms of damage.
I would doubt that; there's firstly no evidence that all nodes are distant from a star, just look at Sols one in FS1 end. The other thing is that a supernova is simply too powerful, even at a possibly increased distance... you could argue that a meson bomb isn't even that powerful anyways; it took a ship full of them to collapse a node, which - arguably - makes them far less powerful than the (detonation of the) Lucifers reactors. By that some (somewhat iffy) chain of logic, the Lucifers destruction in Sol would surely have had an effect similar to a small supernova.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Not to mention the 2 other caveats; 'furthest in human history' doesn't (just) imply distance from earth (or soforth), it implies distance in subspace. For all we know - IIRC it's likely this is the case - systems in close proximity can only be accessible via long jumps. This is a fickle point, however - it's a matter of interpretation.
I think it's simpler than that actually. IIRC of the real FS2 stars Polaris is the furthest away (at 431 LY). The closest nebula of any kind is the Helix nebula at 450LY.
Seems pretty obvious that they must have travelled further when you look at those numbers. :D
Of course I may have missed a star that is further away but the Helix nebula is only a planetary nebula. Analysis of the gases present would very quickly tell you exactly what type of nebula you're dealing with so the minimum distance travelled could easily be set as being much higher.
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perhaps that is what the shivans had designed the lucifer to do, not only planetary assault and seemingly amazing shielding. but that even as the final fall back plan, when it was destroyed it would take as much out with it as possible, that may have been the shivans little boobytrap....obviously they probably would have thought the lucifer would be destroyed by a planet since its meant for planatery assault and that would mean they made the explosion powerful enough to damage the surface or somthing.....again my wild speculation....i have only been awake about 10 minutes so im just gonna throw lotsa random crap at this :P
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It's possible - the Shivans are devious enough to do that sort of thing - but I'm not sure how well it would tally with the described behaviour of the Shivan fleet after the Lucifers destruction; they became disorganised and fragmented, not the result you'd expect if they had anticipated the loss of the Lucifer (because you'd anticipate that, if they believed there was any possibility the ship could be destroyed, then they'd have a backup plan...).
It's an interesting possibility, however. As the Lucifer was only vulnerable in subspace, perhaps they designed it to seal off any enemy powerful enough to destroy it?
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yes but thats the point, if the lucifer was destroyed then the shivan fleet lost cohesion etc, but that doesnt mean they wouldnt put a booby trap on the lucifer for when it was destroyed, in theory the lucifer would be one of if not the last vessel destroyed in the fleet anyway, so i dont think they would consider anything to do with the rest of the fleet because 'theoretically' most of if not all of it has been destroyed enabling forces to attack it
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To me, booby trapping the Lucifer would imply they had prepared for defeat... which strikes me as being somewhat 'un-Shivan'.
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as i said, they may not have expected defeat, but had considered thep ossibility
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Shivan fleet that attacked Cappella...
How big was it?
Was it more then half of the whole Shivan armada?
Or was it merely a small expeditionary force?
Is Sathanas even a warship?
Could it be a some sort of science ship?
And other Shivan ship is just like a PT boat?
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this has already been discussed,.....frankly we'l never know but it is doubtful, the Sathanas is without a doubt a warship
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Originally posted by dan87uk
this has already been discussed,.....frankly we'l never know but it is doubtful, the Sathanas is without a doubt a warship
Actually, there is a great deal of doubt over what the Sath is.... particularly in light of what that fleet did at Capella - they are the one type of vessel that 'escapes', and they don't really go out of there way to engage the GTVA, but gather round the star. Plus the weapon placement leaves huge vulnerability on the rear and sides, too.
One theory is that the Saths are colony ships, transporting the Shivan race to some new / home universe - certainly you could interpret it as that from the FS2 ending;
-Saths close in around sun, emitting subspace vibrations/signal.
-They then close their main arms together, and appear to be directing power into them (increasing hum, pulsing glow, electrcal charges) - the arms pull 'apart', creating what appears to be a green knossos like 'rift' in front of them
-A shockwave eminates from this rift; the star itself takes on a green hue and glow similar to the rift (or whatever), although the rifts themselves stay open and visible
- Some - not all - Sathani jump into what looks like regular subspace; this vortex appears in the same position as the rift did between their arms. Others, apparently having drained their power (no lights, no engines), do not.
IMO they're definately not being used as warships; whilst you could view the destruction of Capella as a military action, you could also say that the Sathani fleet took far greater losses there than it would of had it wished to conquer the GTVA. In the latter case, it implies the Sathani had some other purpose.
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good point
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The supernova is a largest known release of energy in the universe.
The power it releases it uninmaginable (and my physics profesor, who works at CERN said it cannot even be calculated), and it effect the whole region of space.
As someone else promptly pointed out, the biggest release of energy is not a Super nova, but rather an UltraNova. An event which causes those Gamma Ray bursts, which travel from distant galaxies, and if one were to blow up nearby it would vaporise our planet pretty quickly (well, wouldn't vaporise neccesarily. But the world would be hit by an all-encompassing nuclear bomb). Or something like that . . . . watch Nova to find out more.
Second of all, what's with this thread? As a first time reader, I'm getting posts out of order all over the place. I'm getting quotes before the original posts, something is major screwy.
Third, if the supernova which caused the nebula in FS2 happened during the time of the ancients, why wouldn't they talk about it in thier monologues? They seem to be only concerned with the Lucifer to me. Though it is a fairly interesting idea.
EDIT - another thing is, don't subspace nodes need a source of gravity or something? (like a star) If that's the case, maybe it explains the existance of the Knossos. Maybe the only way for the ancients to reach the nebula or leave it was by use of the Knossos.
While using the Knossos as the ancient's only means of travel is a cool idea, it doesn't explain why there aren't any in Altair or other such systems.
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Second of all, what's with this thread? As a first time reader, I'm getting posts out of order all over the place. I'm getting quotes before the original posts, something is major screwy.
you didn't notice before? A few days back the board went all screwy and started messing up the posting dates, so replies went out of order.
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Third, if the supernova which caused the nebula in FS2 happened during the time of the ancients, why wouldn't they talk about it in thier monologues? They seem to be only concerned with the Lucifer to me. Though it is a fairly interesting idea.
Well, they probably weren't there at the time, anyways. I doubt it was part of their war with the Shivans, because why would they build knossos' during that war?
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
EDIT - another thing is, don't subspace nodes need a source of gravity or something? (like a star) If that's the case, maybe it explains the existance of the Knossos. Maybe the only way for the ancients to reach the nebula or leave it was by use of the Knossos.
While using the Knossos as the ancient's only means of travel is a cool idea, it doesn't explain why there aren't any in Altair or other such systems.
3rd knossos was in a system with a star though, I think.
EDIT; so it's not exclusively limited to star-less regions. But, yeah, if you sort of follow where the knossos' were built, you travel from GD to the neb to the Lions Den system.
I wonder if the knossos network - however far it extends - was what led to the Shivans finding the ancients.... maybe they tried to shut the door behind them by closing down the knossos, but failed to realise the node was stable, or that the Shivans could follow them regardless. If the Lions Den system was Shivan territory, then perhaps the comms sats were border defenses, monitoring transmissions and acitivity in the Knossial network?
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I think I have an explanation for the Capella supernova's two-stage nature, since a normal supernova would be single-stage.
The first stage was the induced supernova, but a very weak induced supernova, nowhere near the size or power of a real one, otherwise most of the rest of the GTVA would end up getting fried in a few hundred years too. (And the Demios and Moloch in End Part 1 would have been blasted to their component atoms.) The Capella star just isn't big enough for a real supernova (it looks like a fairly normal sunlike star, which would mean it was nowhere near large enough for a supernova.) and only has the mass for a very tiny, very pale imitation.
The second stage, the one that blasted everything to Kingdom Come, is some kind of subspace backlash resulting from whatever it was that Shivans were doing.
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has anyone ever remembered a small overlooked detail.....when the aquitane first enters the nebula it sends out patrols....one of those patrols goes missing yes? then several missions later a survivor comes back warning the GTVA to leave before its too late before subsequently being killed by a wing of mara's. has any1 considered that this unit may have been to the 2nd knossos to 'lion's den' then gone on the the other knossos aswel?
just some thoughts...
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General consensus is that Kappa 3 encounters the Sathanas. I think it's discussed in one of the dev-diaries in the FS2 website.
EDIT
[q]9.6.99
Item #: 2163
Original Date: 8/31/99
From: Jason Scott to Jason Scott
[FreeSpace 2] SM2-02: A thought just occurred to me. We had discussed long time ago the possibility of having one of the lost Gamma wing pilots in SM1-05 return, babbling some nonsense about big Shivan ships. It would be mighty cool, methinks, if this errant pilot were to appear at the end of this mission, say a few choice words, then combust.
James Agay: I like it! Give me the lines you want in
Jason Scott: Aaaaah! Aaaaaaaah! No! Nooooooooooooo! Aaaaaaaaah!
Mike Breault: I like it. It really rounds out his character, moves the story along, and ties up all the loose ends.
James Agay: A tad more specific perhaps? You just want someone to warp in, scream and explode? I don't think anyone, myself included, will get it.
[Apparently Jason, our overburdened writer, was worried about a writing change in this mission. Not sure how he resolved it. You'll have to play Act II, Mission 2 to find out.][/q]
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Originally posted by dan87uk
has anyone ever remembered a small overlooked detail.....when the aquitane first enters the nebula it sends out patrols....one of those patrols goes missing yes? then several missions later a survivor comes back warning the GTVA to leave before its too late before subsequently being killed by a wing of mara's. has any1 considered that this unit may have been to the 2nd knossos to 'lion's den' then gone on the the other knossos aswel?
It's a nice idea but it's unlikely considering the fact that it would have required an intersystem jump drive to do so. Such drives are very expensive and even though the nebula was an vast unknown patrol area it's unlikely that they would have been sent out in fighters equipped with one.
Besides unless he was in a pegasus could you really see a lone terran pilot managing to slip past the shivans in not just one but two systems?
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ok fair point. it was just a thoguht...:) as for the 2 stage nova i think ngtm1re's explanation sounds the most plausable, i already had a similar idea since the colour of the second shockwave gave it away that it was somthing to do with subspace(in my eyes anyway)
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I thought some supernovas were two-stage. First, the atmosphere gets blown off. Then, the core implodes.
I would think that would tell us what kind of supernova it is.
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hmmm....im not sure
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...hmm, you might be thinking of planetary nebulas there Goober, which is what the Sun will do eventually...but a star only blows up once.
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I'm actualy fairly sure goober is correct, but they happen at basicly the same time
anyways, odds are that there are two explosions for the simple reason that "it looks cool"
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Supernovas are messy affairs. They don't really come in stages, but they are more complex than what most give them credit for.
The core finally burns(any reference to burning from here on out will refer to the fusion processes taking place at the heart of the star) up the last of the hydrogen after millions, perhaps billions, of years.
It's ironic that the largest stars have the shortest lifetimes. But the hydrogen is gone and the equilibrium of outward expansion due to the massive amounts of energy released by the core and the contraction of the core is upset.
The core, now composed primarily of helium "ash", begins to contract, pressure begins to build and with it, heat. The outside observer is oblivious to this process because it takes thousands, perhaps millions of years, for the energy to work it's way to the surface.
Eventually, sufficient pressure builds that the helium begins to fuse under the intense heat. This is a higher energy process than hydrogen fusion and the resultant "helium flash" blows the material above it outward at relitavistic velocites.
This will happen to our sun in a few billion years, of course Earth won't have to worry about that because she will have been swallowed by the sun's expansion around the end of the hydrogen phase.
Certain larger stars, will repeat this process until they get to iron. Iron fusion requires more energy than it generates so, finally, after many billions of years the star will cool and what will be left behind will be a mass of iron about the size of Earth but perhaps 1000 times as dense, a black dwarf. This end is assumes that the star is of course a specific mass, anything much larger and you get a sigularity, anything smaller and you get a planetary nebula.
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Assuming Capella was actually a supernova and not some super-celestial type event thingie.... i mean, the Shivans are definately messing around with subspace; Capella glow the same shade of green as the rifts(?) formed by the Sathani, immediately after the shockwares of those rifts.
It's possible something has been done on a subspace as well as normal space dimension; in which case all bets are off in tersm of real physics.
Hell, maybe the Shivans just stole a big part of the Capellan star and the rest destabilised......
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Lib :wtf: Most of what you've written is the process by which a red giant forms. It's got nothing to do with supernovae.
As for the stuff which is about supernovae you've got some serious flaws in it and none of it relates to the original question of whether a supernova is a one or two stage explosion anyway :wtf:
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
I think I have an explanation for the Capella supernova's two-stage nature, since a normal supernova would be single-stage.
(...)
The second stage, the one that blasted everything to Kingdom Come, is some kind of subspace backlash resulting from whatever it was that Shivans were doing.
So the supernova was some kind of pressure valve?
Hm.... :drevil:
*goes write a story sketch*
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Exactly. So we can't say that the Shivans have explicitly destroyed any nodes, only the star. But we can say the GTVA collapsed one node prior to the supernova, and the second afterwards (presumably; IIRC the brief states a destroyer is standing by to do so, it's not stated whether or not it actually does so in the 'debrief')
Yes, but destroying the star is thus more likely to close than to open a node. The gravity provided by the sun is gone. IF the supernova had any effect on subspace, it closed "nodes". An if it didn't have any effect, it would be pretty useless :p :)
Here is an interesting concept; what if the Ancients built the gates first of all?
(wild speculation alert)
i.e. they built this network of Knossos' (like Stargates) to travel the stars, and then stumbled across a network of existing, stable nodes? And because of this 'trespass'. the Shivans came and attacked them, first of all in GTVA space (the ruins in Altair).. so the Ancients pulled back more and more, shutting down the gates as they left. But the Shivans still followed, because they could rebuild the node.
Interesting. However, evidence from the ancients cutscenes makes this unlikely. They trespassed "when they entered subspace". An explanation for why the Ancients built the portals is given/suggested in the Bosch monologues.
The supernova in two stage is intriguing, I grant you that, as I would have figured many more stages than just two.
It's safe to assume it doesn't actually stop when the image fades out. Supernovae take quite a while. :)
Actually, there is a great deal of doubt over what the Sath is.... particularly in light of what that fleet did at Capella - they are the one type of vessel that 'escapes', and they don't really go out of there way to engage the GTVA, but gather round the star. Plus the weapon placement leaves huge vulnerability on the rear and sides, too.
IMO they're definately not being used as warships; whilst you could view the destruction of Capella as a military action, you could also say that the Sathani fleet took far greater losses there than it would of had it wished to conquer the GTVA. In the latter case, it implies the Sathani had some other purpose.
Yes, the Sathanas is definately no warship. It is a very specialized ship class, like the Lucifer.
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Yes, but destroying the star is thus more likely to close than to open a node. The gravity provided by the sun is gone. IF the supernova had any effect on subspace, it closed "nodes". An if it didn't have any effect, it would be pretty useless
maybe they did Balance Subspace when Sathanas fleet used Subspace weapon (or maybe Subspace balancer) to destroy Capella sun
or maybe they did create Universal portal between Galaxies
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Yes, but destroying the star is thus more likely to close than to open a node. The gravity provided by the sun is gone. IF the supernova had any effect on subspace, it closed "nodes". An if it didn't have any effect, it would be pretty useless :p :)
We don't know what the gravitational requirements for a stable node are AFAIK.
I believe black holes in particular are noted for having heavy gravity; and as the Capellan supernova was not natural, I don't think we can rule out the Shivans manipulating it in some way to get the desired effect.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
Interesting. However, evidence from the ancients cutscenes makes this unlikely. They trespassed "when they entered subspace". An explanation for why the Ancients built the portals is given/suggested in the Bosch monologues.
I meant the trespass was entering the 'stable' subspace network. i.e. as if the subspace nodes were inherently unstable, but the Shivans acted to stabilise them and created their own network; so when the Ancients started using those stable nodes, then they were entering Shivan subspace territory.
However, the positioning of the Knossos' rules that out as a possibility.
Originally posted by High Max
The word warship could just mean any vessel that causes war or is capable of causing war and Sathanas's can cause war and obviously destruction. There are so many Sathanas's that the sheer number of them could make them less specialized. In other words. Not one of a kind like the superdestroyer "lucifer".
Warship generally means a ship designed to fight or operate in a war, rather than causing a war; with that definition a freighter can be considered a warship, as it could (for example) trespass onto disputed territory.
I think the number of Saths, simply indicates that they need a large number of them for doing whatever it is that Sathani do. blow up stars, possibly.
Or maybe they are colony ships used to transport the Shivan race.
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and as such have enormous defensive capabilities. A ship that size wouldn't be very good at anything but surprise attacks where it can choose where to alpha strike, as was evident vs. the collossus.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
We don't know what the gravitational requirements for a stable node are AFAIK.
I believe black holes in particular are noted for having heavy gravity; and as the Capellan supernova was not natural, I don't think we can rule out the Shivans manipulating it in some way to get the desired effect.
Yes, we don't know. But we do know that gravity HELPS a potential node. So if you remove a high object of gravity, you rather close than open anything. Especially if it's connected with a large explosion. There's no evidence on either fact, but IF it has an influence, then it will be in this way, not the other way 'round. We cannot rule out the Shivans manipulating it. But I see them manipulating it just this way, which would also go along with the canon facts we know of subspace.
I think the number of Saths, simply indicates that they need a large number of them for doing whatever it is that Sathani do. blow up stars, possibly.
Or maybe they are colony ships used to transport the Shivan race.
I doubt the Shivans need transporting. The Sathanas, just like the Lucifer is built for a single purpose.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Yes, we don't know. But we do know that gravity HELPS a potential node. So if you remove a high object of gravity, you rather close than open anything. Especially if it's connected with a large explosion. There's no evidence on either fact, but IF it has an influence, then it will be in this way, not the other way 'round. We cannot rule out the Shivans manipulating it. But I see them manipulating it just this way, which would also go along with the canon facts we know of subspace.
Subspace nodes require an intense region of gravity... so if the Shivans created, for example, a black hole then that would be a pretty intense region of gravity. Which leads me to consider+ that Capella was destroyed to create a node... certainly Petrarchs final briefing would lay a degree of support to that*
*So much in FS2 is a matter of interpretation... Bosch raises the possibility of the GTVA being wrong, so we have to make the same assessment of both his actions and what the GTVA believes about the Shivans. What I'm wondering is, have :V: ever flat out lied in the FS2 story?
+ and there's a reason for me taking towards that theory. Sort of. Hehe.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
I doubt the Shivans need transporting. The Sathanas, just like the Lucifer is built for a single purpose.
No evidence either way, however. So it's still a valid idea IMO.
The Shivans, in many ways, are a big rosarch blot.... although I suspect that's more of an aspect of this community than :V:s intention.
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Yeah, just becasue it's a warship doesnt mean it cant have a specialised purpose. You could have a destroyer with a built in awacs for example.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
I doubt the Shivans need transporting. The Sathanas, just like the Lucifer is built for a single purpose.
it's quite plausable that the Sath was really just a big subspace generator, and the four "prongs" on the front end of it focus that concentrated subspace energy..
the lucifer seemed purpose built for obliterating any planetary civilisation, as evidenced by the fall of vasuda prime.. the sheilds also support this theory, because the lucifer's sheilds would not only protect it against enemy warships, etc, but high powered planetary defences, also..
as well, it's also quite likely that a good deal of shivan vessels are ancient in terms of overall age..
as for the shivans themselves... it's clear that the ancients didn't create them. just listen to the monologues of the ancients in FS1,
it's also very clear to me, that the shivans have a "method to their madness" because if they really wanted to, and they do have the resources as evidenced by capella, that they could wipe out both species of the GTVA, and then some.
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Originally posted by High Max
aahhhh...the Sathanas is definately designed to fight a war. In the briefing of the mission "Bear Baiting" it says that the Sathanas single-handedly decimated the entire fleet guarding the GD/Capella jump node. I would think that the Sathanas would be the most powerful warship in all of the original FS2 campaign. Those 4 BFreds make very short work of any ship and it has about 80 turrets and an ultra-strong hull. It has to be a warship. It may however serve more purposes than just a warship. It could be a warship/star destroyer hybrid. It excels as a warship so it must be one. Also, don't forget on that first Vasudan mission (Fog of War) that right after the Sathanas destroyed the Tatanen, Command said, "abort the mission, we do not have the firepower to challenge that warship". Command called it a warship.:nod: :p
If I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head. And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.
But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.
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Maybe, but the Sathanas is clearly not a non-combatant ship, which is the alternative, so it falls into the warship category by default. After all, the Sathanas is incredibly well-armed and eminently capable of defending itself against or taking the fight to a legion of hostile spacecraft.
I've always considered the design shortcomings of the Sathanas as a representation of the Shivans' attack-oriented mentality about warfare, personally. It was not designed with defensive concerns in mind. After all, the Ravana has the same guns-forward setup and no one doubts that it is a warship.
...which actually leads into the concept from the Shivan Manifesto that there is no true "Shivan territory" in this dimension. The Shivans are so attack-oriented because they literally have nothing here to defend.
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Even Poseidons have guns, however, and there is no real reason to suppose it isn't a similar situation with the Sathanas.... there is no reason to disprove the idea that the Sathanas isn't a combatant and that the BFReds are simply tools for scientific use which happen to make good weapons; nor is there a reason to doubt the converse.
The use of the Sathanas to do something to Capella, whilst the rest of the Shivan fleet are still fighting the GTVA, could be evidence of a different, non-military role.
Additionally, the definition of combatant is a difficult one; in the nebula (for example), a Charybdis is a combatant. A triton is a combatant. An Argo is a combatant.
But would you consider either of those to be warships?
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If I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head. And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.
But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.
True, but some cultures use big long hammers, like the Die Tsuchi, for weapons. So if someone came at you, one might think "hey, that guy's a blacksmith, or works in a quarry with a hammer like that" when really he's a warrior and that's just his weapon of choice.
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
If I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head. And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.
But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.
True, but some cultures use big long hammers, like the Die Tsuchi, for weapons. So if someone came at you, one might think "hey, that guy's a blacksmith, or works in a quarry with a hammer like that" when really he's a warrior and that's just his weapon of choice.
:sigh:
If I'm a blacksmith, and I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head. And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.
But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.
Happy?
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Not really, because I'm not sure how your post added anything above what your other post did, basically you just qouted yourself which served little purpose at all.
Anyway, to cut the analogies, the point is that the Sathanas is a warship, in the same way that the Lucifer is a warship. Everyone likes to cite how the Sathanas wasn't engaging the fleet, but was rather gathered around the Capellan sun. Well remember that first of all, the Sathanas single-handidly spearheaded the invasion of both Gamma Draconis, and Capella. It wasn't Shivan warships that were first through the Knossos, or shivan warships that were first in Capella, it was the Sathanas. One doesn't send science ships, or colony ships, ahead of warships.
Now, when in Capella, if one assumes the destruction of the star was for some greater purpose than to wipe out Capella, then the Sathanas was operating in a non-military capacity. But do those mission objectives invalidate its role as a warship? Does an American Aircraft carrier helping with the relief in Indonesia become something other than a warship because its not dropping bombs on people with its airplanes? No, of course not.
The Sathanas purposely engaged and destroyed allied warships thoughout the Nebula. Its first mission was to strike at a Sobek, it later destroyed a GTVA fleet. It spearheaded the assault into Gamma Draconis, securing the area around the Knossos first with its fighters and then with the ship itself. It jumped into Capella, AHEAD of a Demon destroyer with mission objectives which at that time were unclear. Later, the second Sathanas, partially in response to the destruction of Shivan ships near the second Knossos jumps in and destroys the Hatshepsut (forget its name). Furthermore, the Sathanas is almost always acting alone, never with supporting ships.
The Sathanas is a warship, and the Shivans are clearly using it like a warship where it is specifically going out to engage GTVA ships, often in advance of other Shivan forces.
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Not really, because I'm not sure how your post added anything above what your other post did, basically you just qouted yourself which served little purpose at all.
I'm sorry, but my point should have been blatantly obvious. If a blacksmith has to use his tool as a weapon - for whatever reason - it doesn't stop him being a blacksmith or his tool being a tool.
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Anyway, to cut the analogies, the point is that the Sathanas is a warship, in the same way that the Lucifer is a warship. Everyone likes to cite how the Sathanas wasn't engaging the fleet, but was rather gathered around the Capellan sun. Well remember that first of all, the Sathanas single-handidly spearheaded the invasion of both Gamma Draconis, and Capella. It wasn't Shivan warships that were first through the Knossos, or shivan warships that were first in Capella, it was the Sathanas. One doesn't send science ships, or colony ships, ahead of warships.
The first Shivan warship through the Knossos was a Moloch, some transports and a deployment of Mara. Had the Sathanas been deployed in an invasion force, I would have expected it to travel with a supporting battlegroup, rather than on its own.
Of course, the whole idea of a Shivan invasion of GD and Capella is a debatable one; all we know is that they travelled to a star, did something, and then (the Saths) departed.
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Now, when in Capella, if one assumes the destruction of the star was for some greater purpose than to wipe out Capella, then the Sathanas was operating in a non-military capacity. But do those mission objectives invalidate its role as a warship? Does an American Aircraft carrier helping with the relief in Indonesia become something other than a warship because its not dropping bombs on people with its airplanes? No, of course not.
And does that change the converse? Of course not; it's equally as valid.
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
The Sathanas purposely engaged and destroyed allied warships thoughout the Nebula. Its first mission was to strike at a Sobek, it later destroyed a GTVA fleet. It spearheaded the assault into Gamma Draconis, securing the area around the Knossos first with its fighters and then with the ship itself. It jumped into Capella, AHEAD of a Demon destroyer with mission objectives which at that time were unclear. Later, the second Sathanas, partially in response to the destruction of Shivan ships near the second Knossos jumps in and destroys the Hatshepsut (forget its name). Furthermore, the Sathanas is almost always acting alone, never with supporting ships.
We have no evidence what the Sathanas' mission was. It could have been a vessel to survey Capella. Or a lure to identify the GTVAs strongest weaponry, using knowledge from the Great War to anticiapte it would be attacked.
The fact it is an enormously powerful vessel and able to defend itself, does not mean it is a dedicated or even intentional warship. It just means that the Shivans built a big powerful ship for some purpose presumably involving a star.
(NB: the colossus has a large supporting fleet as seen in the FS2 intro, and is the closest ship to the Sath in terms of size and power. If you disregard this example because it's a Terran vessel, then you have to also consider that Shivan 'military' tactics might not be military but simply the actions of a different type of mind)
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
The Sathanas is a warship, and the Shivans are clearly using it like a warship where it is specifically going out to engage GTVA ships, often in advance of other Shivan forces.
Or maybe they're just running into the GTVA forces. If the Sathani had been specifically intended to engage GTVA ships, then why did 80 sit around the Capellan star whilst the entire Shivan fleet was fighting?
And the Shivans are, i think, an xenophobic race. Whilst the Sath might engage any enemy ships it comes across, it doesn't mean that's its primary purpose; it just means the Shivans don't pass up an opportunity to kill.
i.e. I see no reason why the Sathanas has to be designed, conceived or intended as a warship rather than some other form or purpose of vessel. As we know nothing about the Shivans intent, fleet deployment, or origins, then we can't make a definite conclusion on the purpose / mission of the Sathanas( in particular). That's my point.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
i.e. I see no reason why the Sathanas has to be designed, conceived or intended as a warship rather than some other form or purpose of vessel. As we know nothing about the Shivans intent, fleet deployment, or origins, then we can't make a definite conclusion on the purpose / mission of the Sathanas( in particular). That's my point.
That's exactly the point. The Shivans are so alien, unlike the Vasudans, that we do not have the same reference point. We can't think like they do. We can make inferences based on ship design, deductions based on past behavior. If we had had peaceful communication with them, how would you explain any of the basic concepts that are common knowledge to humans(and most likely Vasudans, despite the language barrier)
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Or maybe they're just running into the GTVA forces. If the Sathani had been specifically intended to engage GTVA ships, then why did 80 sit around the Capellan star whilst the entire Shivan fleet was fighting?
And the Shivans are, i think, an xenophobic race. Whilst the Sath might engage any enemy ships it comes across, it doesn't mean that's its primary purpose; it just means the Shivans don't pass up an opportunity to kill.
i.e. I see no reason why the Sathanas has to be designed, conceived or intended as a warship rather than some other form or purpose of vessel. As we know nothing about the Shivans intent, fleet deployment, or origins, then we can't make a definite conclusion on the purpose / mission of the Sathanas( in particular). That's my point.
I think you're missing my point. I never said that the Sathanas was "intended to engage GTVA ships". What I said that is that the mission of the Sathanas in Capella was a non-combat mission, which involved the destruction of the star (for whatever purpose).
What, exactly in your definition is a warship? A ship specifically designed to attack other ships? That's not my definition. The Sathanas is a warship because it is used to destroy, used to attack, used to conduct war. Just because its primary or secondary purpose is the subspace 'device' employed around Capella, does not invalidate its capability to make war. The Sathanas did not simply "come across" all of those ships in the nebula. It did not simply, jump in beside a sobek by accident, and blow it to hell. Its actions and its attack was deliberate.
Simply put, the Sathanas is a warship because it is used in an offensive role during a time of war.
The ship has the most powerful beam weapons of any ship in the entire fleet. It carries scores of shivan fighter craft. It has jumped into an area with the specific purpose of engaging and destroying a GTVA vessel (Sobek, Colossus).
Why didn't the Sathanas fleet engage the GTVA fleet in Capella? Simple: It had better things to do, and the rest of the Shivans were doing just fine. One should note of course that a Sathanas did engage the GTVA Colossus in Capella during thier Finest hour (or whatever mission it was). The Sathanas didn't jump in from the node, so it was already insystem. The ship was either diverted from the star, or diverted from its approach to the star. In either case, the ship was used as a "warship", because the previous attempts by other Shivan forces (Lilith, Ravana) were quite simply inadequate. It didn't just happen upon the scene, it didn't jump in by accident. It was diverted from its primary objective, its non-combat mission with the specific purpose of destroying the Colossus. Wouldn't that fit your definition of a warship?? It certainly fits mine.
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
I think you're missing my point. I never said that the Sathanas was "intended to engage GTVA ships". What I said that is that the mission of the Sathanas in Capella was a non-combat mission, which involved the destruction of the star (for whatever purpose).
What, exactly in your definition is a warship? A ship specifically designed to attack other ships? That's not my definition. The Sathanas is a warship because it is used to destroy, used to attack, used to conduct war. Just because its primary or secondary purpose is the subspace 'device' employed around Capella, does not invalidate its capability to make war. The Sathanas did not simply "come across" all of those ships in the nebula. It did not simply, jump in beside a sobek by accident, and blow it to hell. Its actions and its attack was deliberate.
Simply put, the Sathanas is a warship because it is used in an offensive role during a time of war.
The ship has the most powerful beam weapons of any ship in the entire fleet. It carries scores of shivan fighter craft. It has jumped into an area with the specific purpose of engaging and destroying a GTVA vessel (Sobek, Colossus).
Why didn't the Sathanas fleet engage the GTVA fleet in Capella? Simple: It had better things to do, and the rest of the Shivans were doing just fine. One should note of course that a Sathanas did engage the GTVA Colossus in Capella during thier Finest hour (or whatever mission it was). The Sathanas didn't jump in from the node, so it was already insystem. The ship was either diverted from the star, or diverted from its approach to the star. In either case, the ship was used as a "warship", because the previous attempts by other Shivan forces (Lilith, Ravana) were quite simply inadequate. It didn't just happen upon the scene, it didn't jump in by accident. It was diverted from its primary objective, its non-combat mission with the specific purpose of destroying the Colossus. Wouldn't that fit your definition of a warship?? It certainly fits mine.
My definition of a warship is a ship purposely designed for combating other warships or enemy support vessels. I think the use of the Sathanas in Capella raises the possibility that it is not designed for that primary purpose, but simply has the necessary weapons to defend itself.
now, the only specific event of a Sath arriving and attacking a ship with an intra-system jump I can recall is the Colossus. Precluding the possibility of coincidence, it's quite possible the Colossus was considered an exceptional or immenent theat, and there were no other free vessels. Whilst the Sathanas might be the most powerful ship in the Shivan fleet (that we know of), that does not imply it is designed for war; it just means it's powerful.
In the case of the beam weapons, they may be powerful due to a primary purpose of subspace manipulation; certainly we know those 4 prongs have some key role in what happened in Capella. With respect to the fighter craft, it's equally possible that they are intended to defend the Sathanas (if it is a colony ship or the like, and thus a high value target), or even simply for long range scouting purposes.
I do not think there is any evidence that can be used to say conclusively the Sath is a warship; there is too much that is unknown about the Shivans. But if the Sathanas was specifically responsible for and escaped the supernova when no other Shivan vessel did, then it implies some purpose which makes it less 'disposable' as the other Shivan vessels.
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I do not think there is any evidence that can be used to say conclusively the Sath is a warship; there is too much that is unknown about the Shivans. But if the Sathanas was specifically responsible for and escaped the supernova when no other Shivan vessel did, then it implies some purpose which makes it less 'disposable' as the other Shivan vessels.
I think all Shivan forces are 'disposable' (I'd use "expendable" myself); the only important thing to the Shivans is their long or short term goals.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Subspace nodes require an intense region of gravity... so if the Shivans created, for example, a black hole then that would be a pretty intense region of gravity. Which leads me to consider+ that Capella was destroyed to create a node... certainly Petrarchs final briefing would lay a degree of support to that*
*So much in FS2 is a matter of interpretation... Bosch raises the possibility of the GTVA being wrong, so we have to make the same assessment of both his actions and what the GTVA believes about the Shivans. What I'm wondering is, have :V: ever flat out lied in the FS2 story?
+ and there's a reason for me taking towards that theory. Sort of. Hehe.
No evidence either way, however. So it's still a valid idea IMO.
The Shivans, in many ways, are a big rosarch blot.... although I suspect that's more of an aspect of this community than :V:s intention.
I doubt they created a black hole. If you watch the endgame movie, you cannot see anything remaining behind. If indeed a black hole was to be created, they'd have needed tons of mass practically coming from "nowhere", or to concentrate the sun in a very very small spot. In both cases, you should clearly be able to see the result in the movie. However, no distortion, or other indicative of a black hole can be seen. I doubt :V: have decided on the latter parts of the storyline. Personally, I believe Petrarch - the GTVA - is wrong. And even if they were told, they would refuse to listen. A typical syndrome in the human race, I might add.
Originally posted by High Max
aahhhh...the Sathanas is definately designed to fight a war. In the briefing of the mission "Bear Baiting" it says that the Sathanas single-handedly decimated the entire fleet guarding the GD/Capella jump node. I would think that the Sathanas would be the most powerful warship in all of the original FS2 campaign. Those 4 BFreds make very short work of any ship and it has about 80 turrets and an ultra-strong hull. It has to be a warship. It may however serve more purposes than just a warship. It could be a warship/star destroyer hybrid. It excels as a warship so it must be one. Also, don't forget on that first Vasudan mission (Fog of War) that right after the Sathanas destroyed the Tatanen, Command said, "abort the mission, we do not have the firepower to challenge that warship". Command called it a warship.:nod: :p
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
I think you're missing my point. I never said that the Sathanas was "intended to engage GTVA ships". What I said that is that the mission of the Sathanas in Capella was a non-combat mission, which involved the destruction of the star (for whatever purpose).
What, exactly in your definition is a warship? A ship specifically designed to attack other ships? That's not my definition. The Sathanas is a warship because it is used to destroy, used to attack, used to conduct war. Just because its primary or secondary purpose is the subspace 'device' employed around Capella, does not invalidate its capability to make war. The Sathanas did not simply "come across" all of those ships in the nebula. It did not simply, jump in beside a sobek by accident, and blow it to hell. Its actions and its attack was deliberate.
Simply put, the Sathanas is a warship because it is used in an offensive role during a time of war.
The ship has the most powerful beam weapons of any ship in the entire fleet. It carries scores of shivan fighter craft. It has jumped into an area with the specific purpose of engaging and destroying a GTVA vessel (Sobek, Colossus).
Why didn't the Sathanas fleet engage the GTVA fleet in Capella? Simple: It had better things to do, and the rest of the Shivans were doing just fine. One should note of course that a Sathanas did engage the GTVA Colossus in Capella during thier Finest hour (or whatever mission it was). The Sathanas didn't jump in from the node, so it was already insystem. The ship was either diverted from the star, or diverted from its approach to the star. In either case, the ship was used as a "warship", because the previous attempts by other Shivan forces (Lilith, Ravana) were quite simply inadequate. It didn't just happen upon the scene, it didn't jump in by accident. It was diverted from its primary objective, its non-combat mission with the specific purpose of destroying the Colossus. Wouldn't that fit your definition of a warship?? It certainly fits mine.
The Sathanas is definately not designed to wage a war. Yes, the Sathanas carries massive armament. And yes, Command considers it a warship. But then again, the GTA thought The PVFr Satis a cruiser for quite some time. Go figure. The Sathanas is only made for a single purpose. The only really mighty weapons it has are its beam weapons, and you'll notice they're placed just at the end of its "arms". Now what we can see of the Sathanii makes them being a warship unlikely. The Shivans exclusively use them for Capella, except for one ship. And here's an interesting thought for you: The Sathanii obviously are made to generate/carry? an immense amount of energy. That energy CAN be consumed, as is shown by the remaining Saths. Wouldn't it make sense to actually use that power for its beams as well? They're what makes the Sathanas such strong a vessel, and interestingly enough fire from the same device used to channel the energy for the nova. What if the Sathanas attacking the GTVA had actually spent too much energy, making it useless for the events at Capella? As a result, it would only have spent its "remaining energies" on killing the Colossus and its fleet. Command is wrong in thinking of the Sathanas as a warship.
Originally posted by Turnsky
it's quite plausable that the Sath was really just a big subspace generator, and the four "prongs" on the front end of it focus that concentrated subspace energy..
the lucifer seemed purpose built for obliterating any planetary civilisation, as evidenced by the fall of vasuda prime.. the sheilds also support this theory, because the lucifer's sheilds would not only protect it against enemy warships, etc, but high powered planetary defences, also..
as well, it's also quite likely that a good deal of shivan vessels are ancient in terms of overall age..
as for the shivans themselves... it's clear that the ancients didn't create them. just listen to the monologues of the ancients in FS1,
it's also very clear to me, that the shivans have a "method to their madness" because if they really wanted to, and they do have the resources as evidenced by capella, that they could wipe out both species of the GTVA, and then some.
Yes, indeed. It's a common Shivan concept only to use as much technology as necessary, and it's also common to have special ships for special tasks (see Lucifer and Sathanas).
The Shivans definately weren't created by the Ancients, and the whole theory of them beine "created" is pretty much nonsense anyway.
It's also clear they are not the xenophobic race Command thinks them to be. If they'd just slaughter everything, both FS1 and FS2 (Ancients Cutscenes, Monologues, and the missions) would make absolutely no sense. And if anyone would still doubt, Bosch is the living proof.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
I doubt they created a black hole. If you watch the endgame movie, you cannot see anything remaining behind. If indeed a black hole was to be created, they'd have needed tons of mass practically coming from "nowhere"
How about from subspace?
Originally posted by Lightspeed
, or to concentrate the sun in a very very small spot. In both cases, you should clearly be able to see the result in the movie.
Perhaps that green distortion around the sun? (after the shockwaves, 1:05 in approx)
Originally posted by Lightspeed
However, no distortion, or other indicative of a black hole can be seen. I doubt :V: have decided on the latter parts of the storyline.
Actually, nothing can be seen atall. There's a shakycam shot of the shockwave origin, whih cuts to the Deimos & Molochs debris, and finally whites out; we never see the core of the star after the supernova (technically we never see the end of the supernova atall)
Originally posted by Lightspeed
Personally, I believe Petrarch - the GTVA - is wrong. And even if they were told, they would refuse to listen. A typical syndrome in the human race, I might add.
But not one that applies to Bosch?
With regards to Bosch' survival, I always liked this analogy; if an ant stopped one day, and started talking to you, wouldn't you at least want to stop a while and find out what it had to say and why?
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HM: I don't think so. The Shivans don't need to stabilize nodes to jump through them, nor do they need Knossos portals.
Originally posted by aldo_14
How about from subspace?
Then the node would already have to have existed. :ha:
Perhaps that green distortion around the sun? (after the shockwaves, 1:05 in approx)
That's before the supernova. The Sathanii are not pulled towards the sun, so it's safe to assume the gravity stays more or less the same before the explosion (actually, during the explosion as well.)
Actually, nothing can be seen atall. There's a shakycam shot of the shockwave origin, whih cuts to the Deimos & Molochs debris, and finally whites out; we never see the core of the star after the supernova (technically we never see the end of the supernova atall)
Yes, of course we don't see up to the end, but if a black hole were not to form until later, the Sathanii couldnt have jumped out through said "new node". And it's precisely the fact that we see "nothing" that I think it unlikely.
But not one that applies to Bosch?
You have to take into consideration that Bosch is indeed an individual. Individual persons don't follow the rules as much as masses of people. In fact, the more people you take, the easier their actions can be predicted. That's what makes Bosch stand out from the GTVA. You can never predict what an insane individual may be up to, but you can predict with shocking precision what a large mass of people is going to do.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
HM: I don't think so. The Shivans don't need to stabilize nodes to jump through them, nor do they need Knossos portals.
Then the node would already have to have existed. :ha:
Maybe it did; we know that very unstable short term nodes exist, they're just not used for transport. Or perhaps they were creating the postulated 'supernode' and capella was chose as it had some suitablity for this purpose, such as a subspace rfit in or close. Or perhaps the Sathani were able to create a short term node for themselves, and their actions were to create a stable node for other ships to use.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
That's before the supernova. The Sathanii are not pulled towards the sun, so it's safe to assume the gravity stays more or less the same before the explosion (actually, during the explosion as well.)
IIRC a black hole does not have infinite range. And we simply don't see the Saths after the nova anyways; we see the star enlarge, encompass the Sathana, and that's all.
Of course, all this is assuming they succeeded in what they wanted to do.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
Yes, of course we don't see up to the end, but if a black hole were not to form until later, the Sathanii couldnt have jumped out through said "new node". And it's precisely the fact that we see "nothing" that I think it unlikely.
(see above)
We don't know where they jumped out to, though. So we don't know if they simply hopped into an intra system jump to wait it out or something similar.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
You have to take into consideration that Bosch is indeed an individual. Individual persons don't follow the rules as much as masses of people. In fact, the more people you take, the easier their actions can be predicted. That's what makes Bosch stand out from the GTVA. You can never predict what an insane individual may be up to, but you can predict with shocking precision what a large mass of people is going to do.
So? He's still human, he's still fallible.
Yes, the individual is more unpredicatable, but the individual also doesn't have the checks imposed by rational society. that same ability to 'think outside the box' also increase the chance of miscalculation or mistakes.
And, of course, Petrarch is also an individual, making a philosophical comment - is that any less valid than Bosches monologues?
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
That's before the supernova. The Sathanii are not pulled towards the sun, so it's safe to assume the gravity stays more or less the same before the explosion (actually, during the explosion as well.)
Not quite sure I follow you LS. Are you saying that cause the Saths don't get pulled in towards Capella there couldn't have been a black hole created? Cause if so that's not true.
Even if 100% of Capella's mass had been turned into a black hole they wouldn't be pulled into it.
Gravity is a function of mass and the black hole would actually weigh less than the star that created it cause some of that mass was flung away during the supernova.
If they weren't being pulled towards Capella before the nova they wouldn't be being pulled towards it afterwards either, regardless of whether or not a black hole was formed
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Simple analogy: If the Sun were suddenly to be replaced by a black hole of the same mass, the orbits of the planets would not be altered at all. Same overall gravitational pull. Black holes are only different at very close range.
@Aldo: The Charybdis and the Triton as combatants? Being in combat does not make you a combatant spacecraft, it merely means you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The two have non-combatant roles, AWACs and freighter, and their armament clearly indicates this.
The Sathanas does not have armament that indicates a non-combat role. Before you try an apply the anthropomorphic fallacy arguement (which I consider fallacious, but that's another subject), consider that the Shivans have their own non-combat craft that we have as a frame of reference: the Azreal, Mephisto, Dis, and Asmodeus.
These ships all have armament that might be expected of a Terran craft in a similar role.
Further, if one accepts that the Sathanas is meant solely as a Novamaker, then you encounter a problem. Such a ship would obviously be a prime target. However the armament of a Sathanas is poorly suited to defending itself when it is holding station near the star it's trying to destroy. This is a tactical consideration, and it holds true for anything from any race and any mentality that must sit still for a long period of time.
On the other hand, the Sathanas, with its guns-forward main armament, is uniquely suited to offensive action. Again this is a tactical consideration that can be seen easily enough by anyone, an objective reality if you will, that cannot be explained away by a differing mentality. Because of roughly similar technology, the tactical concerns for both Terrans and Shivans are also similar. They have to be. There are only so many ways one can use a weapon, after all.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
On the other hand, the Sathanas, with its guns-forward main armament, is uniquely suited to offensive action. Again this is a tactical consideration that can be seen easily enough by anyone, an objective reality if you will, that cannot be explained away by a differing mentality. Because of roughly similar technology, the tactical concerns for both Terrans and Shivans are also similar. They have to be. There are only so many ways one can use a weapon, after all.
You forget, every race has a unique style os design, the shivans, as old as they may be, are no different, there preference is to show force at the front of their ships, that is their design, its only drawback is that it leaves its rear heavily undefended in comparison, just look at a cain/lilith or rakshasa, the cain/lilith has 3 forward facing prongs, the rakshasa has 6 forward facing prongs 4 of them being beam cannons, the only exceptions you would have to say are the moloch and demon, the demon's design seems to concentrate on facing down and 'clasping' type design. and the molock is just a corvette in a unique shape. The sathanas is still a match for any vessel when not facing them, altho notably weaker than if they were facing them of course.
The basic jist of my point is that Terran and Shivan Vessels are not alike in their design, yes the basic functions are the same though, freighter, cruiser,corvette etc, altho i dont think shivans would bother with an AWACS :nod:
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
@Aldo: The Charybdis and the Triton as combatants? Being in combat does not make you a combatant spacecraft, it merely means you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The two have non-combatant roles, AWACs and freighter, and their armament clearly indicates this.
The Sathanas does not have armament that indicates a non-combat role. Before you try an apply the anthropomorphic fallacy arguement (which I consider fallacious, but that's another subject), consider that the Shivans have their own non-combat craft that we have as a frame of reference: the Azreal, Mephisto, Dis, and Asmodeus.
These ships all have armament that might be expected of a Terran craft in a similar role.
Yes, but the Sathani is clearly of a different role to any Terran ship based upon what we saw it do at the end of fs2. You'll notice that it's primary offensive weapon was, however, situated in the same area as the technology that created the subspace rift. In fact, the glow on the tips of those prongs as it 'pulls' open the rift, appears identifcal to a beamglow.
EDIT; oh, and according to the table entries the Sathanas is also an AWACs.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Further, if one accepts that the Sathanas is meant solely as a Novamaker, then you encounter a problem. Such a ship would obviously be a prime target. However the armament of a Sathanas is poorly suited to defending itself when it is holding station near the star it's trying to destroy. This is a tactical consideration, and it holds true for anything from any race and any mentality that must sit still for a long period of time.
Look at Capella. The Shivan fleet engaged GTVA. Sathani were thus left unmolested.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
On the other hand, the Sathanas, with its guns-forward main armament, is uniquely suited to offensive action.
Action against a star. So it's really about equivalent in defensive tech to a super-large transport, but with frontal 'weapons' that serve as it's primary tool in whatever it does to stars.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Again this is a tactical consideration that can be seen easily enough by anyone, an objective reality if you will, that cannot be explained away by a differing mentality. Because of roughly similar technology, the tactical concerns for both Terrans and Shivans are also similar. They have to be. There are only so many ways one can use a weapon, after all.
Firstly, we have no comparison of technology between the GTVA and Shivans; it is very clear very little is known or revealed about the Shivans tech - we know they know a lot more about subspace than the GTVA (travel via unstable nodes, Capella), but that's about it.
Secondly, the Shivans clearly have a different objective to the GTVA; namely Capella. GTVa tactics are towards attacking and later on retreating from the Shivans; so both have massively diverging tactical concerns. The Shivans can also seemingly afford to sacrifice ships - possibly even Sathani themselves in endgame(1) - in order to allow the bulk of the Sathanas fleet to perform their mission.
Thirdly, the 'so many kind of ways can use a weapon' is pretty invalid, because you have to know that a) something is a weapon and b) how it can be used. We don't have any proof the Sathanas (or rather, it's main beams) is primarily designed to be a weapon, and we have seen already it's use in a vastly different scenario than would otherwise have been imagined from it's initial ingame use.
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Just 1 thought
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Shivan fleet appeared in FS1:
No beams, no flakguns.
Total technological superiority at beggining of invasion.
Shivan fleet appeared in Early stages of FS2:
Beams and flaks, but small number of ships and no sathanas.
No technological superiority.
Shivan fleet appeared in later stages of FS2:
1 sathanas single handedly trys to destroy GTVA forces.
Only the GTVA's tactics was able to destroy the Sathanas, not the technology.
Shivan fleet appeared in final stages of FS2:
Almost unlimited number of ships, and more then 80 sathanas.
Small technological superiority.
Does this mean Shivans analyze the threat of its enemys and deploy forces that is only necessary to destroy it, not using unnecesseary large forces?
For me, it appeares that Shivans took GTVA's destruction of Ravana by surprise, and they deployed the ship that is most powerfull, or powerfull enough to archive total superiority, the Sathanas.
And even the Sathanas was destroyed, so they rushed to send fleet enough to squash entire GTVA easily.
Am I correct in this?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Maybe it did; we know that very unstable short term nodes exist, they're just not used for transport. Or perhaps they were creating the postulated 'supernode' and capella was chose as it had some suitablity for this purpose, such as a subspace rfit in or close. Or perhaps the Sathani were able to create a short term node for themselves, and their actions were to create a stable node for other ships to use.
For other ships to use? Excuse me, but would you want to send ships to a fresh super nova environment?
IIRC a black hole does not have infinite range. And we simply don't see the Saths after the nova anyways; we see the star enlarge, encompass the Sathana, and that's all.
We see the Sathanii and even planets blown away by the sheer force. So quite a lot, probably almost all of the sun's material must be blown literally off in all directions.
(see above)
We don't know where they jumped out to, though. So we don't know if they simply hopped into an intra system jump to wait it out or something similar.
Since the nova probably is thousands of times larger than the system, this is unlikely.
So? He's still human, he's still fallible.
Yes, the individual is more unpredicatable, but the individual also doesn't have the checks imposed by rational society. that same ability to 'think outside the box' also increase the chance of miscalculation or mistakes.
And, of course, Petrarch is also an individual, making a philosophical comment - is that any less valid than Bosches monologues?
Petrarch is the representation of the GTVA. Nobody knows about Bosch's motives, it's his alone. Petrarch is strongly influenced by his environment, the GTVA philosophy. He cannot "think outside the box" as Bosch can. And while Bosch may be indeed be making mistakes or miscalculations (he even wonders if he did when he enters the nebula), it's somewhat proven that he's right, seen how his plan succeeds. (at least the first step)
Originally posted by karajorma
Not quite sure I follow you LS. Are you saying that cause the Saths don't get pulled in towards Capella there couldn't have been a black hole created? Cause if so that's not true.
Even if 100% of Capella's mass had been turned into a black hole they wouldn't be pulled into it.
Gravity is a function of mass and the black hole would actually weigh less than the star that created it cause some of that mass was flung away during the supernova.
If they weren't being pulled towards Capella before the nova they wouldn't be being pulled towards it afterwards either, regardless of whether or not a black hole was formed
It was speculated that additional mass would have been "jumped" into the system, which is what I was referring to. The Capellan sun itself would probably not have enough mass for a decent black hole, and without the large amount of mass (all?) blown off through the nova (we can see the force whacking things off in all directions, so there must be quite a lot of "flying mass" involved. Remember there's no "air" in space, so the force is exclusively transmitted by the star's matter) there will hardly remain enough for such a phenomenon.
Originally posted by DIO
Just 1 thought
.
Shivan fleet appeared in FS1:
No beams, no flakguns.
Total technological superiority at beggining of invasion.
Shivan fleet appeared in Early stages of FS2:
Beams and flaks, but small number of ships and no sathanas.
No technological superiority.
Shivan fleet appeared in later stages of FS2:
1 sathanas single handedly trys to destroy GTVA forces.
Only the GTVA's tactics was able to destroy the Sathanas, not the technology.
Shivan fleet appeared in final stages of FS2:
Almost unlimited number of ships, and more then 80 sathanas.
Small technological superiority.
Does this mean Shivans analyze the threat of its enemys and deploy forces that is only necessary to destroy it, not using unnecesseary large forces?
Of course. Would the GTVA have sent the Colossus if an Aeolus would have done the job?
For me, it appeares that Shivans took GTVA's destruction of Ravana by surprise, and they deployed the ship that is most powerfull, or powerfull enough to archive total superiority, the Sathanas.
And even the Sathanas was destroyed, so they rushed to send fleet enough to squash entire GTVA easily.
Am I correct in this?
No. If you were to be, the Sathanii would have attacked the GTVA.
The Sathanii were only deployed for their specific task.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
For other ships to use? Excuse me, but would you want to send ships to a fresh super nova environment?
We see the Sathanii and even planets blown away by the sheer force. So quite a lot, probably almost all of the sun's material must be blown literally off in all directions.
Since the nova probably is thousands of times larger than the system, this is unlikely.
We don't kno0w the conditions of the system post-nova, or indeed the scope of the nova, only a visual representation Simple as that.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
Petrarch is the representation of the GTVA. Nobody knows about Bosch's motives, it's his alone. Petrarch is strongly influenced by his environment, the GTVA philosophy. He cannot "think outside the box" as Bosch can. And while Bosch may be indeed be making mistakes or miscalculations (he even wonders if he did when he enters the nebula), it's somewhat proven that he's right, seen how his plan succeeds. (at least the first step)
It's not proven that Bosch is right in any way in his final aim, whatever that may be. IMO the Shivans have played him a cheap piano.
He makes communication, that's all. There's no evidence that his crew was suppossed to die ("As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the shivan transports. We embark on a miraculous journey towards a new horizon."), or that he went willingly after the Shivans arrived ("they took Bosch"; namely use of 'took').
In fact, for making the first steps of a new alliance ("I have initiated the first phase of a new alliance with the destroyers"), the Shivans appear to have been somewhat violent after boarding the Iceni; whether or not you put this down to the Iceni crew panicking, Shivan belligerance or a Bosch double-cross - the truth is we don't know.
Likewise, it's impossible to simply dismiss the GTVA and Petrarch as wrong without any evidence to the contrary.... Petrarch is a key aspect of the storyline, and Volition wouldn't have put in that specific line ("Perhaps they are exiles like we are, nomads wandering the universe, searching for a way back home. The explosion of a star might be a bridge between this universe and their own.") if it wasn't intended to have some relevance or meaning; whether that is a deliberate misdirection or a hint towards the continuation of the storyline, we can't casually dismiss it.
Perhaps there's a reason the original subtitle of FS2 was 'Exodus'?
Originally posted by Lightspeed
It was speculated that additional mass would have been "jumped" into the system, which is what I was referring to. The Capellan sun itself would probably not have enough mass for a decent black hole, and without the large amount of mass (all?) blown off through the nova (we can see the force whacking things off in all directions, so there must be quite a lot of "flying mass" involved. Remember there's no "air" in space, so the force is exclusively transmitted by the star's matter) there will hardly remain enough for such a phenomenon.
We don't know what the Shivans did to Capella, nor how much of it was destroyed and how much compressed. Or indeed moved or manipulated. In short, we have no information on what happened during or after that supernova, and - crucially - absolutely no idea what the Shivans did and whether they meant to do it.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
It was speculated that additional mass would have been "jumped" into the system, which is what I was referring to. The Capellan sun itself would probably not have enough mass for a decent black hole, and without the large amount of mass (all?) blown off through the nova (we can see the force whacking things off in all directions, so there must be quite a lot of "flying mass" involved. Remember there's no "air" in space, so the force is exclusively transmitted by the star's matter) there will hardly remain enough for such a phenomenon.
Capella is actually large enough to form a black hole naturally IIRC. It's just at the wrong point in its lifespan to do so.
As for the damage Capella did to nearby worlds it would take only a tiny percentage of Capella's mass to achieve that effect.
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Why is it obvious? :wtf:
You (or I, for that matter) have no idea what Volition's intentions were...
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It's about as obvious as fish.
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The Sath is a warship, pure and simple.....
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Except it's not pure and simple. That's what the last 2 pages or so are about.
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You know what I just got this idea...........
Could it be at all possible that the only reason why the Shivans took Bosh in a trasport was maybe possibly that they could probe his mind for information, that means the GTVA's numbers, ship tech, fleet size, and maybe the location to the homeworld?
Could it be that when they got that informaton the Shivans used a few of their juggernaughts to open up a temporary jump hole to sol?
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Or so you think.
The Sath is a warship. It's too big, too well armoured, too well armed and carries too many fighters to be a science ship or colony ship or anything else.
It makes no sense whatsoever that a non-combat ship is the most powerfull ship seen in FS2.
The Sath attacked the Colosuss - that sez enough. Someone said they prolly sent him couse they had nothing else in the vicinity. Bull.
There is no sense whatsoever in sending a non-combat ship, especialy since taking out the Colossus wasn't that urgent or important - it clearly didn't impede the shivans in their star-blowing mission and it was damaged.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Or so you think.
The Sath is a warship. It's too big, too well armoured, too well armed and carries too many fighters to be a science ship or colony ship or anything else.
It makes no sense whatsoever that a non-combat ship is the most powerfull ship seen in FS2.
The Sath attacked the Colosuss - that sez enough. Someone said they prolly sent him couse they had nothing else in the vicinity. Bull.
There is no sense whatsoever in sending a non-combat ship, especialy since taking out the Colossus wasn't that urgent or important - it clearly didn't impede the shivans in their star-blowing mission and it was damaged.
All of this has been discussed earlier & plausible rebuttals offered.
Please read the rest of the thread.
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Originally posted by Falcon
You know what I just got this idea...........
Could it be at all possible that the only reason why the Shivans took Bosh in a trasport was maybe possibly that they could probe his mind for information, that means the GTVA's numbers, ship tech, fleet size, and maybe the location to the homeworld?
Could it be that when they got that informaton the Shivans used a few of their juggernaughts to open up a temporary jump hole to sol?
That is a somewhat Bold idea, a nice idea, although doubtful, maybe you should write fanfics? lol in fact whith the ideas floating about in these forums im suprised 90% of the people on it dont do fanfics
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Originally posted by dan87uk
That is a somewhat Bold idea, a nice idea, although doubtful, maybe you should write fanfics? lol in fact whith the ideas floating about in these forums im suprised 90% of the people on it dont do fanfics
We tend to do campaigns instead. But it takes longer and we can't spil the story by revealing it.
:nervous:
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Originally posted by TrashMan
The Sath attacked the Colosuss - that sez enough.
Actually, the Sath only killed stuff that got in it's way and the C fired the first shot. We don't know what the Sath's final destination was, only that it was nigh invulneralble to convential weapons, had wiped out the defensive fleet at the Capella node, and was headed into populated areas.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
It makes no sense whatsoever that a non-combat ship is the most powerfull ship seen in FS2
1. the Sathanas can be destroyed by the aquitaine and a wing of bombers and an escort (Aquitaine jumps in behind the Sath, right after it has jumped in, Bombers launch Trebs at the Lred on the Sath's Arse and the Aquitiane BFGReens it to death) I would much rather live on a Colossus than the Sathanas
2. The Sathanas is obviously a dual purpose ship. It is a fairly strong warship, but 80 of them can cause a SuperNova. After all the Big C can't destroy a star and that is IMO a more powerful vessel because it has more anti-capship turrets
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Originally posted by aldo_14
We don't kno0w the conditions of the system post-nova, or indeed the scope of the nova, only a visual representation Simple as that.
Unless this is a very special nova, we may speculate based on scientific data.
It's not proven that Bosch is right in any way in his final aim, whatever that may be. IMO the Shivans have played him a cheap piano.
He makes communication, that's all. There's no evidence that his crew was suppossed to die ("As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the shivan transports. We embark on a miraculous journey towards a new horizon."), or that he went willingly after the Shivans arrived ("they took Bosch"; namely use of 'took').
In fact, for making the first steps of a new alliance ("I have initiated the first phase of a new alliance with the destroyers"), the Shivans appear to have been somewhat violent after boarding the Iceni; whether or not you put this down to the Iceni crew panicking, Shivan belligerance or a Bosch double-cross - the truth is we don't know.
His crew probably died because they panicked. I doubt he even told the "average crew" they would be boarded by Shivans. The contact was bloody, yes. And it's not like he plans starting a "new alliance" with the Shivans, he's "initiating the first phase", probably not much more than begging them to listen to him. And yes, it's possible they took Bosch, but as long as Bosch left the Iceni and boarded the transports, his final aim is met.
Likewise, it's impossible to simply dismiss the GTVA and Petrarch as wrong without any evidence to the contrary.... Petrarch is a key aspect of the storyline, and Volition wouldn't have put in that specific line ("Perhaps they are exiles like we are, nomads wandering the universe, searching for a way back home. The explosion of a star might be a bridge between this universe and their own.") if it wasn't intended to have some relevance or meaning; whether that is a deliberate misdirection or a hint towards the continuation of the storyline, we can't casually dismiss it.
It's basically a way of moving the focus back on Sol, showing the desperation of the Terrans to get back. It is definately a continuation of the storyline. It screams "we're going back to Sol!"
Originally posted by Falcon
You know what I just got this idea...........
Could it be at all possible that the only reason why the Shivans took Bosh in a trasport was maybe possibly that they could probe his mind for information, that means the GTVA's numbers, ship tech, fleet size, and maybe the location to the homeworld?
Could it be that when they got that informaton the Shivans used a few of their juggernaughts to open up a temporary jump hole to sol?
They wouldn't need Bosch for that. Just look back at FS1 or the power with which they could have simply crushed everything. They (hopefully) wouldn't jump to Sol.
Originally posted by dan87uk
That is a somewhat Bold idea, a nice idea, although doubtful, maybe you should write fanfics? lol in fact whith the ideas floating about in these forums im suprised 90% of the people on it dont do fanfics
I've thought about it, but even as it is, I write enough fiction already, and lack the time needed.
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Well I often question why the Shivans came back a second time. Somehow I keep thinking the same thing: Maybe the reason why the Shivans came back a second time was to find out what happened to the Lucifer. I mean is the Shivans sent the Lucifer to destroy Earth in FS1, but instead it was destroyed by the GTVA, but do the Shivans know that the Lucifer is destroyed? Maybe thats why they came back a second time.
This all IMHO.
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perhaps in that case, they think the lucifer is stuck in the sol system rather than destroyed, which would tie in with your other bold idea that the sathii's opened a temporary jump point to sol
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Unless this is a very special nova, we may speculate based on scientific data.
It's an artificially induced nova, of course it's special.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
His crew probably died because they panicked. I doubt he even told the "average crew" they would be boarded by Shivans. The contact was bloody, yes. And it's not like he plans starting a "new alliance" with the Shivans, he's "initiating the first phase", probably not much more than begging them to listen to him. And yes, it's possible they took Bosch, but as long as Bosch left the Iceni and boarded the transports, his final aim is met.
Probably, but not definately. Although I'm not sure Bosch would consider his crew average if they manned his flagship, and surely they would have cottoned on to at least part of his plan regardless (after entering the nebula and communicating & not attacking a Shivan vessel)?
I somehow doubt Bosch' ultimate goal was to travel on a Shivan transport, however.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
It's basically a way of moving the focus back on Sol, showing the desperation of the Terrans to get back. It is definately a continuation of the storyline. It screams "we're going back to Sol!"
Maybe, but it's also paralleling the Shivans to humanity (or even using them as an allegory). The line about the Shivans being refugees like humanity only appears in the 'success' (i.e. escape) cutscene; perhaps a reward?
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whoa 8 pages...impressive, lol is there anymore we can posisbly say on the shivans? we've gon from numbers and there technology to shivans ordering a pizza :)
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Unless this is a very special nova, we may speculate based on scientific data.
I think it is safe to say it is a very special nova
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Hey, don't make fun of the Shivans! They ARE special aliens... They spent a lot of time in their special education classes, and I think they deserve a medal for all of their hard work!
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Probably, but not definately. Although I'm not sure Bosch would consider his crew average if they manned his flagship, and surely they would have cottoned on to at least part of his plan regardless (after entering the nebula and communicating & not attacking a Shivan vessel)?
Probably not. With "average crew" I don't mean those that are actually filling vital roles in the ship. They wouldn't know.
I somehow doubt Bosch' ultimate goal was to travel on a Shivan transport, however.
If you put it this way: He succeeded as far as getting noticed by the Shivans, and to successfully communicate with them. And all clues we're given indicate they do indeed at least consider(!) listening to what Bosch has to say.
Maybe, but it's also paralleling the Shivans to humanity (or even using them as an allegory). The line about the Shivans being refugees like humanity only appears in the 'success' (i.e. escape) cutscene; perhaps a reward?
I think Petrarch would see "nomads searching for a way home" everywhere.
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Why are you so convinced that you are right Lightspeed?
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Okay, if the Shivans used Capella to create a short-term node anywhere they wanted to go and the Sath is a warship of unparalleled power, maybe we stumbled into a collossal plan to storm the Unknowns "home" system and raze their planet and the Shivans did what they did to expedite their mission, because they didn't have time to "play" with the GTVA for months trying to get to Capella.
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Hmm Interesting:nod:
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Probably not. With "average crew" I don't mean those that are actually filling vital roles in the ship. They wouldn't know.
I think it's quite possibly they did; trapped on a tin can for several months, in unknown and hostile territory, the very least I would expect are rumours, especially when contact was made with the Shivans. I'd also expect the weapons officers - however many - would be ordered not to fire on Shivan vessels.
Regardless of what they could guess or not, IMO Bosch's last monologue definately indicates that he intends to take his entire crew with him.
Originally posted by Lightspeed
If you put it this way: He succeeded as far as getting noticed by the Shivans, and to successfully communicate with them. And all clues we're given indicate they do indeed at least consider(!) listening to what Bosch has to say.
Insofar as we know, they listened to Bosch long enough, and replied sufficiently, to 'take' him. I think theres no way you can say that the Shivans didn't just manipulate Bosch as he manipulated the NTF.
The clues that we do have are;
a) he communicated with the Shivans and received enough information to indicate he was 'forming an alliance'
b) Bosch was willing to leave on a Shivan transport and did leave
c) Shivans and NTF crew fought onboard the Iceni
Originally posted by Lightspeed
I think Petrarch would see "nomads searching for a way home" everywhere.
That's not really a very concrete reason for concluding he's wrong, is it?
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also is correct, he says 'myself and my crew are ready to scuttle the Iceni and board the shivan transport' which would indicate he origionaly intended to take his entire crew with him
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Originally posted by Liberator
Okay, if the Shivans used Capella to create a short-term node anywhere they wanted to go and the Sath is a warship of unparalleled power, maybe we stumbled into a collossal plan to storm the Unknowns "home" system and raze their planet and the Shivans did what they did to expedite their mission, because they didn't have time to "play" with the GTVA for months trying to get to Capella.
But then why did the Shivans initially send in just 1 sathanas. If it was a colossal plan and they didn't want to just play with the GTVA they would send in 80 Sathanases straight awayand steamroller the entire GTVA within minutes.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
But then why did the Shivans initially send in just 1 sathanas. If it was a colossal plan and they didn't want to just play with the GTVA they would send in 80 Sathanases straight awayand steamroller the entire GTVA within minutes.
Scout.
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they sent the first 1 in to see what was around....well....yeh....a scout basically :D and even one alone managed to 'steamroller' most of the fleet in the area
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I think the Shivans are enjoying the wars they have with the GTVA like it were some sporting event.
Shivan announcer: "And welcome to our 2nd annual 'Great War' deathmatch! In this corner we have our prized Sathanas and in the other corner new ship on the block Colossus! Lets get ready to rumble!"
*Crowd cheers*
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Scout.
Economy of force. They only thought they'd need one. (They almost only did need one.)
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The plan likely called for as many Sath as could be gotten there so they sent one that could be spared.
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Holy *&^$ did i have to read alot. page 4-9 Gawd. Anyways.
Shivan Sathii=warship + star destroyer\science vessle.
What was the green (*&^ again? Something related to supspace but what? Supspace frequencies which caused certian imballances which cauesed the system to go pow-wow? Like harmonics, had to be loud enough.
Id wrather live in C then S, too.
About the missing Kappa wing. Did we get out of SOC b4 the Kappa mission? If so, i think my new idea is, that was our old SOC pals. Snipes and the crew. On their way through konossos and other galixys, then back warning us, with their last remaining fighter, survivor, who was killed.
I remember hearing about a 'greater darkness' shivans are 'symtoms of the bigger problem'. I hear *wispers fs3* was going to be about GTVA learning of the greater plague then the shivans. Maby the last scout\soc\kappa wing guy saw it and tried to warn us 'GET THE (*U^ OUT OF THE NEBULAAAA!'. Is that possible?
And for bosch. I think he left willingly and had Something set up. THe two rakshasa's were escorting his ship maby, not 'stalking' or 'following'? Confirming the, no hostiles, and all clear to jump here, signals.
Bah i forgot what i was going to really say about it, or somethign else. *Cries*
If they tried and suceeded to get to SOL, were done for. Thus battlestar galactica, and bablyon 5, and what was it.. oh i forget. Gtva\humans run like hell to secert secure systems to repopulate b4 we get our @$$e$ wiped clean..
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Translation please!
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"Buy Bosch Beer"
You have to read between the lines ;)
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That can be arranged for. :)
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They eat Vasudans :doh:
:p
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Originally posted by High Max
If bosch boards the transports, I wonder how he and his crew eat?
They drink Bosch Beer and eat er... Frozen Bosch beer!
Sorry couldn't resist
Good point tho'
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(http://www.mibeercans.com/images/Bosch/Bosch_U40-38_Bosch_Beer_P.JPG)
(http://www.mondobirra.org/sfondi/Bosch.jpg)
Don't ask. Drink.
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From the HLP FAQ...
Where did Bosch Beer come from?
One day a humble FreeSpacer known only to us as Max Sterling invented a beverage called "Bosch Beer". "Bosch drinks it, why don’t you?" See this page (http://www.robotechlan.com/freespace2/bosch/) for more details.
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Actually, the community only found out that Bosch Beer existed after Max Sterling had come up with the joke. Or so I'm told.
About the last mission in DEM: Read the readme. It gives you hints. ;)
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Personaly, i understand the bosh beer one, but what about space crack?
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Originally posted by Falcon
I think the Shivans are enjoying the wars they have with the GTVA like it were some sporting event.
Shivan announcer: "And welcome to our 2nd annual 'Great War' deathmatch! In this corner we have our prized Sathanas and in the other corner new ship on the block Colossus! Lets get ready to rumble!"
*Crowd cheers*
like in Alien Vs. Predator
With the gate crashers, instead of being human's those annoying Vasudan bombers.