Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: an0n on January 04, 2005, 09:36:23 pm
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Your country is being invaded.
The enemy are evil and barbaric, it's not just propaganda. They're crushing your nations armies, smashing through local militias and are steadily taking town after town, their victory assured.
They've got tanks, jets, guns and hundreds of thousands of men.
Your town is next on their list and they've already started bombing the **** outta it in preparation for the troops moving in to secure the tattered remains.
What do you do?
Surrender to their rule and beg for mercy? Flee to the countryside to live out your days in hiding? Retreat to the shadows till an organized resistance can be formed? Or do you stay and fight for a futile cause, all alone?
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A war of attrition is best: flee and hide, stockpile weapons, infiltrate their ranks, etc.
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you try to join their side. *shrug* whoever is winning is usually the side you want to be on... i figure you may as well just change yer way of life instead of suffering *cringes at the incoming flames*
unless this has to do with that US idiot in office and his stupid war... in which case you die fighting.
[edit] alternately, you can go on a suicide crash mission on em. thatll get your point across, as well as take you out of the mess. its what i would do...
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I mean what would you personally do.
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Either...
a) Retreat and engage in Guerrilla tactics with others like myself.
b) Take as many of the bastards with me as humanly possible.
c) Sneak out of the country and Appeal to the rest of the civilized world.
...depending on which would have the largest negative effect on the enemy.
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Join up - with the INVADERS!
Often times when the "barbarians" conquered a nation with higher culture they assimilated that into their own or they were assimilited in a couple of generations.
There is no such side as EVIL, remember the no.1 rule of any war is that the bugger on the other side is just like you a happless human turned into a beast by the higher ups who will take the benefits of the whole affair.
In this manner all countries and all armies are evil since you'll die for a cause you probably will never benefit from. - and even during an invasion of your homeland this still stands true for most of the invaders.
Acting just like them and instilling even greater alienation won't help them realize that or finally make them see you as another human being.
By siding with them you can do both - and do your best to keep as many peple alive as possible.
The downside is you'll be labeled a traitor and will be on the run from the rebellios of your own people...but since the invaders are supposed to be overwhealmingly strong....and the fighting useless....it's still better than playing hero or martyr but end up doing nothing that actually HELPED people.
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Personally, I'd just hide out and make remote attacks on street patrols with low grade home-brew explosives and road-side bombs.
Pretty much what the Iraqis are doing, but I wouldn't expose myself to a group mentality. I'd just do it on my own. Less chance of getting caught as a result of the stupidity of your comrades.
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I, personally, would flee. Because I am a coward, through and through. :p
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If they were a relatively civil, forgiving enemy, then I would surrender to them. But since they're "evil and barbaric", I would flee as best I could, and pray that I survive. A best-case scenerio would be that I find a way out of the country to a safe nation.
Oh man, this psychadelic temporal distortion of ours is blowing my mind.
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Who is rearanging posts?
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Just as discretion is the better part of valour, so is cowardice the better part of discretion. And so, I would valiantly submit to the rule of our insect overlords, and unquestioningly obey there commands to purge the nefarious and distruptive elements of our society by giving up the names of friends and family engaged in anti-governmental acitivties.
No one would be spared. You hear me? NO ONE!
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I would fight for a while killing as many of them as possible and then retreat. Every location I flee to I would fight them as they follow me until I run out of supplies (ammo, gasoline).
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dynamic 6 and 3, methinks. 4 works fine, though.
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Stop assuming yer ****ing Rambo.
You wouldn't have ammunition till you'd killed some soldiers and stolen theirs. Which would mean knifing a 2-man team before they could radio in. Even then you'd only have maybe 2 grenades, a crappy semi-auto rifle, some kevlar plates and a few clips of ammo.
Add to that the fact that you've got no military or weapons training and then give a realistic answer.
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flaser: yeah, id do that too, except my goal would be to take as many lives as possible, instead of preserving as many as possible.
[edit] gah... its flasers post a little ways down... bloody time warp!
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Originally posted by redmenace
A war of attrition is best: flee and hide, stockpile weapons, infiltrate their ranks, etc.
You dont know what a war of attrition is do y ou?
Anyways i'd basicly hide out, booby trapping everything. Try to form an armed resistance using homebrew weapons and the likes.
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You wear them down to the point where they don't want to remain in control.
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Originally posted by an0n
Your country is being invaded.
The enemy are evil and barbaric, it's not just propaganda. They're crushing your nations armies, smashing through local militias and are steadily taking town after town, their victory assured.
They've got tanks, jets, guns and hundreds of thousands of men.
Your town is next on their list and they've already started bombing the **** outta it in preparation for the troops moving in to secure the tattered remains.
What do you do?
Surrender to their rule and beg for mercy? Flee to the countryside to live out your days in hiding? Retreat to the shadows till an organized resistance can be formed? Or do you stay and fight for a futile cause, all alone?
Errr......most likely take a gun, get myself shot while trying to take out as many as I can........yeah right...more like get myself shot without taking anyone else out. That, or go kamikaze with a bomb........
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in the inital situation I would ether flee and wait untill some other nation tryed to use my countries plite to inflate there own sence of nationalism then if (and only if) it seemed like they had a snowballs chance in hell of winning I'd try fighting with them. or I would roll over take it up the ass for a few years and hope they get board and go away, after 3-5 years I'd probly start snipeing/bombing them.
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Fall back and hide until an organized resistance/counter-attack can be mounted.
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Originally posted by redmenace
You wear them down to the point where they don't want to remain in control.
yes, somthing very hard to do, nigh impossible, if you dont have the same or more (military) power as them.
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actually, id see myself taking a gun to my temple if that happened. what the hell, if nothing else, itd give me a decent excuse :)
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Urm.......
Realistically as I am now, I would try go for taking out a live team and getting their equipment - then playing Rambo until I get killed. Starting off with knives (hell even a sword works), a bottle of alcohol coupled with fire (good way to take out the first one is to break the contents on him, have him on fire while you try to do in the other one, preferably undetected).
Naturally, the first two (or one) kill would be IN THE NIGHT - and all consequential targets would be attacked in the night as well as I go along with it. Fighting in the daylight is ****ing stupid, unless you're well equipped, with the terrain working in YOUR favor - always having a means of escape.
Naturally always alone - others can decide for themselves what the hell they want to do. If someone joins me, I'd use them as bait or cover.
Rambo tactics kick ass, and if I get killed in the process - oh well, I didn't stand much chance anyway.
I'd try to pick on a two man team, or a stray soldier first of course, if possible. Taking out a Sniper from behind wouldn't be too bad either, just for a good measure of an extra kill(s) from a distance.
Originally posted by an0n
Stop assuming yer ****ing Rambo.
You wouldn't have ammunition till you'd killed some soldiers and stolen theirs. Which would mean knifing a 2-man team before they could radio in. Even then you'd only have maybe 2 grenades, a crappy semi-auto rifle, some kevlar plates and a few clips of ammo.
Add to that the fact that you've got no military or weapons training and then give a realistic answer.
However, if we're going by me not having any military training or weapons training, best thing is to put the hands up in the air and await imprisonment. "I'm not hostile". Then when I learn military training and weapons training, rip them a new one from within.
Death chance on BOTH tactics (sooner or later), is about 97%, 92% if I have the element of surprise, but 49% if I'm physically better, stronger and more intelligent than my (current) oponent. Those are 1v1 estimates, naturally, the percent increases x2 if there are more of them, and it increases exponentially.
So to sum it up - what I would do if I was being invaded, was most likely be dead on the street with a bullet in my head. Rambo doesn't work usually, unless the enemy is really really ****ing tribal-like stupid.
note: percentage numbers have been pulled out of ass - that's what I figure my chances would be - you may feel different about your skills and capabilities.
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i wouldnt last 10 minutes...
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Flee to Australia!
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go for large scale **** that nobody expects, like poisoning the water supply or infecting them with some dieses via the local brothels which the occupying soldiers are sure to frequent. You can take pot shots all day long, but a truck bomb that takes out 20 enemies at once it more effective.
with that said, in any country there are those with military experience who could then pass it on, forming the cornerstones of an armed resistance. Its just a matter of getting enough money and weapons, and people willing to die for the cause. Infiltrating the ranks of the enemy always works, since chance are that they're going to establish some sort of local police force type thing. Get them to train you, arm you and then switch sides when they're at their weakest...
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If I had even the slightest bit of military training, I'd stand and fight. Otherwise, head for the hills.
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Originally posted by Raa
Flee to Australia!
don't you'd get chucked into a detention center for a few months/years and then deported to where ever you came from
and no i'm not kidding that is what happens
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You just don't get it do you?
Those man, no matter how barbaric or sawage are just like you.
There is such thing as 'good fight' or 'good cause' - except silently putting a clever into all those bid mouther warmongers back when they count they money made on their latest business.
Read some books from Svan Hassel - he will turn around your views about war or "patriotism" within seconds and leave you with the shocking realization that once you though that being a soldier could be fun.....nothing is further from the truth.
War demoralizes, destroys you from the inside if you mange to survive against the outside odds - bets are you'll end up either as a raving lunatic in a hospital our out there as one of the psycho they show as mass murdering villians.
Killing humans is just not meant to be normal - even the most die-hard criminals don't consider it just or normal, they kill but almost always as a mean of something or out of primal fear and paranoia but never just for killing itself.
It's not armed resistance that destroyes an army of this proportions - and I hope you don't imagine that a horde of barbarians with spears could conquer any modern nation - is what undermines its foundation: the thoughless and devout execution of all and any order of the mad regime.
Poets, martyrs (who are seen as such by both sides) are more dangerous to a totalitarian system than any partizan - the reason is instead a mere scratch into its millitary flesh these people can strike the system down to the bone. That's the reason why intelligence was always so hunted by these systesms - unconsciously they knew where the danger lurked...
I don't say being a rebel or a partisan is mad or useless at all - it's merly the target or direction you all seem to take in your resistance is what I find pointless.
Face it: there is just no way that you could kill every single soldier - you'll also make an even bigger bastard out of yourself in the process than them.
Sabotage the infrastructure, sabotage the industry, distrupt the flow of resources in the country - meanwhile spread propaganda among both the people and the invaders.
Look for officiers with a opinion of their, people with conscience - there are always such people no matter the system.
It's not the occupation of your country or the presence of foriegn people that's sucking the life out of your homeland - it's the leaders of the invaders, the investors, the upper echelon that gets it all...,
....it's the control of people who don't give jack**** about your or your countryman's wellbeing. Destroying the flow of that control, undermining that system ideology, thrustworthyness is the prime aims.
By doing so you can enforce massed resistance in both your own country - the problem is never the fact that there are just too few of citizens capable, most will lay low - and demoralize the invaders, making THEM question the sytem they so obediently served so far.
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If you look at afghanistan, they were able to wear the russians down.
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Since I have virtually no sense of nationalism, I will probably just shrug my shoulders and let the best army win. Anon never said they were also slaughtering civilians in his first post, so I should be relatively safe.
EDIT:
Snipes said it best on "into the lions den":
"Don't do anything stupid, just stay alive!"
EDIT2:
Another reason why I would not fight is because I am not a soldier.
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I'd show them my copious supply of Coca Cola, and pray they accepted it as a sign of my loyalty. I'd also point out the fact I own two cars which, by our standards, are rather non-ecofriendly.
That'd sort em.
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Me, i would go underground and grow a beard. I would get myself a Dragunov, pick a nice spot, and pop some heads.
And judging how low Freedom of Speech has sunk, i wouldn´t be surprised if i got a visit from the MIBs for saying this...
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Originally posted by Flaser
Read some books from Svan Hassel - he will turn around your views about war or "patriotism" within seconds and leave you with the shocking realization that once you though that being a soldier could be fun.....nothing is further from the truth.
You mean Sven Hassel, right? Great stuff. I´ve read 3 of his books, "Chariots of Hell" being the best.
Sven Hassel was a german soldier, who fought on both fronts. The books are the diaries of his days at the front.
I bet anyone who reads them will change the way they see the average german soldier. From a merciless monster, to just an average guy just doing what he could to survive.
I highly recomend reading it.
:yes:
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Personally, I'd run like hell or hide; whatever it takes to stay alive.
Because I'm a coward :).
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I would fight to the bloody end!
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Originally posted by Make
I would fight to the bloody end!
And die, being remembered as "just another rebel" :rolleyes:
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Assuming I hadn't already signed up (Which I probably would if my country was invaded) I'd knock off a few .22s and go bush. Do whatever I could to hurt them in any small way. I'd probably end up getting caught and killed, but I know the area around my home town pretty well and I reckon I'd be able to survive at least a while, and that'd be all that mattered to me.
Originally posted by oohal
don't you'd get chucked into a detention center for a few months/years and then deported to where ever you came from
and no i'm not kidding that is what happens
Not everyone...but lots of people, yeah.
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I'd have been recruited into the reserves long before the enemy got to cities and towns, so I'd be on the front lines anyway.
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I would fight!
and die. Hey what's that so
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I'd get so stoned I wouldn't even care if I was shot... ;7
Seriously though, I'd pack my valuebles (which obviously will include my laptop with sattelite connection), get my car and drive off. Untill I reach France. Then I'll realize that that really isn't a good place for safety and drive on to Switzerland. The Swiss always remain neutral. :D
Really, I couldn't care enough to fight and put my life on the line for my country. I care about me and my close relatives/friends and for them I would put my life on the line. But not to charge into a lost cause just so I can be proud or if it's the right thing to do.
Pride and being right means exactly **** if you're dead.
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None of us would have any idea what we would do. War is a brutal nasty affair and I would want to keep as far away from it as possible, if anything resistance of any sort would only make things worse. We have all seen what invaders do in a situation with guerrilas, they bomb the **** out of everything nearby, civies or not. You also have to look at it this way, if you are being invaded, the opposing force is (stronlgy dislikes next word) evil and the 'civilised' world is not helping your country you need to think why. But no doubt my post is about to move to some far and distant land.
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I think it´s obvious this thread is supposed to make people think just why ordinary iraqis (and palestinians) are fighting this war. About 90% of us said we would fight the invaders. Why should they be any diferent?
And those who say they would join the invader, you are kidding yourself. As soon as you saw the first bombs hitting your next door neighbour, you would be the first in line at the local weapons cache, getting a gun and a uniform.
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
I think it´s obvious this thread is supposed to make people think just why ordinary iraqis (and palestinians) are fighting this war. About 90% of us said we would fight the invaders. Why should they be any diferent?
And those who say they would join the invader, you are kidding yourself. As soon as you saw the first bombs hitting your next door neighbour, you would be the first in line at the local weapons cache, getting a gun and a uniform.
The bastard who's been partying all night and spilt it on my doorstep - which I had to clean up?
It's quite idealistic that all citizens are loving and/or supporting each other - my nation has a long history of ****ing over eachother / calling the shots against your neighbours and hand them over to the actual secret police. - Actual the same happened in France during WWII or the whole Eastern block.
As soon as the **** hits the fan, your people will act in pretty much the same manner.
Armed and Guided resistance in a situation like that? Dream on....
Beside - about the split/murdered/shot ect. people - you can be desenitized to death really fast.
(Actually I already am thanks to all the impressions I had of it so far, beside the smell nothing can really upset me (on a purly fact level, emotional drama is another thing, but people you don't know at all rarely draw empathy), the later only guts my stomach but that's it.)
...and beside the true SD and SS like maniacs - who are INCAPABLE of forming a good army - most soldiers wouldn't do that to civilians unless they tortured/killed/maimed their buddies....which is what partizans often do. In their war frenzy these patriots are often just as bad these facist/ect... maniacs they fight against...
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
I think it´s obvious this thread is supposed to make people think just why ordinary iraqis (and palestinians) are fighting this war. About 90% of us said we would fight the invaders. Why should they be any diferent?
And those who say they would join the invader, you are kidding yourself. As soon as you saw the first bombs hitting your next door neighbour, you would be the first in line at the local weapons cache, getting a gun and a uniform.
First off it is a collection of foreign fighters and Iraqis. The iraqis consisting of former bathists and republican gaurd. These also including civilians that are being whipped up into a frenzy by Sunni Clerics. The point I am illuding to is that Iraq is not clean cut example. What Sunnis are doing now is not patriotism but out of sheer fear of what will happen to them now that they are no longer in power. I say this based on the fact that Shiites, that are not blowing things up, are happy about the election.
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I think I'd try to flee the country, most likely across the St. Lawrence to Canada....
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Originally posted by redmenace
based on the fact that Shiites, that are not blowing things up, are happy about the election.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You don´t read the newspapers too often, do you?
Who do you think Mohktada Al Sadr was/is? Go watch the news, then comeback and try again.
PS:Foreign fighters, you say? That´s good for another laugh. If i were to guesstimate, i would say the foreigners account for less than 1% of the iraqi fighting forces.
I would sugest that you stop listening to the White House for field reports, and start listening to actual iraqis, actually living in Iraq and not some office in downtown Washington.
Try this for a start:
http://www.justinalexander.net/iraq/ (http://www.justinalexander.net/iraq/)
Now i´ll go take a pill for the pain, you made me laugh so hard my stomach akes!!
:lol: :lol:
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you have no better idea what's going on than him, anything you can site I'll site another fifty that will say the opposite and the only thing that can discredit them is that they disagree with what you beleive.
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I grant you that no one here knows exactlly what is going on overthere, that´s true. But i also remind you that there is only one truth to anything, and that only one side can be right. Wich side is that? Well, i think i´m in a better position to judge that, seeing as i´m in daily contact with iraqis, that i am a Iraqi Watch volunteer, and that i took the trouble to actually read what other iraqis are saying of what´s going on over there. Perhaps you choose to believe someone sitting in Washington, eating hamburgers and feeling cosy and warm in his air conditioned room. But me i don´t. I rather trust the word of hundreds of bloggers that post daily on the net. I rather trust them when they say how they are STILL without electricity for 2/3 of the day. I rather believe them when they say that the "foreign fighters" story is just a story.
Don´t take my word for it, go read it for yourself. Email them, talk to them, listen to them. Read their diaries, and their obituaries too.
Open the link i posted, and visit any of a hundred blogs that iraqis write on everyday, and then comeback and share what you have discovered. I dare you.
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i remember a quote from a movie, and it goes like this..."Your duty is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his".
I'd strap explosives to kangaroos. Also ive always wanted to use radio controled planes (big ones) to drop bombs.
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Woo....politics. Can't say i can be arsed with all this today, tho.
Didn't the Pentagon recently release a report commenting on how they had somewhat misunderestimated the strength of Islamic fundamentalism+former regime in leading to a resistance? i.e. that the insurgency / resistance / rebellion was 'more Iraqi' than anticipated? I'm sure I've seen some reports, etc, that indicate that the majority of insurgents killed have been Iraqi.
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
But i also remind you that there is only one truth to anything, and that only one side can be right. Wich side is that?
SIP
That is one of the greatest sources of white man's ingnorance.
"There is such thing as THE truth, only A truth."
(Antal Szerb, Hungarian writter and humanist)
I don't think though that you don't have a valid point though, I merly point out that there is NO ONLY or EXCLUSIVE point to any issue.
What it boils down to is that to each person is his own truth based on his morals, so it's kinda hard to make or state a HUMAN or universal right thing....especially if you go into thought on the matter of wheter the closest/easiest good thing is the best thing for someone.
(Like imminent pacification and strong foreign influence - no, I don't support the rebells I'm just merly sick of the RIGHTSOUS warmonging propaganda from both sides.)
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Originally posted by Flaser
That is one of the greatest sources of white man's ingnorance.
I don´t mean philosofical truth, i mean absolute truth.
In the question posed above "Is the iraqi rebellion made by iraqis or foreign fighters", there can only be one true answer. Either yes, or no. Right or wrong, black or white. Those are what we consider absolute truths. The philosofic part of "truth" has no relevance here.
We are not discussing wether they are right or not, or wether they are entitled to fight or not. All i wanted cleared up, was wether the iraqi revolution was actually iraqi at heart, and not multinational as the White House claims. And i think any well informed person will know the answer to that.
Let´s not forget, that the body making these "foreign fighters" claims, is also the same body that says electricity was restored. It´s the same body that claims the US army is not killing civilians, and that there is no widespread torture in US ran Iraqi prisons.
It´s actually quite funny to see americans demonizing iraqis, saying "they are monsters, we are liberating them", and yet if placed in the same position they would do exactlly the same. How many americans would sit still, and dance and cheer in the streets at the passing of, for example, russian invader tanks? Or canadian? Or mexican? Would you feel glad that your cities are razed to the ground by non-stop high altitude bombing runs? Would you give praize for their coming? Or would you just blow away the first russian soldier you came across?
If you´re afraid, or you don´t want to die, or you have children to look after, you will probably just stay home and do nothing, but even then you would still feel angry and desperate, even if you don´t actually do anything about it. The majority of iraqis might not be engaging in open battle, but that doesn´t mean they are happy to see the US army outside their front porch!
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(http://homepage.mac.com/clave/misc/broke.gif)
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ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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My people have a history of invading other countries in a rather uncivilised ways, so...:doubt:
Seriously, I like that option of either Australia or some skandinavian country.
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well well let's see...
i'm quite strong...no military training..some military knowledge... never touched a gun...........little idea of how to shoot one...(i'm a UBER fan of military RTS games and the second World War....and i have some knowledge in tactics....i read a short book about the Manevering War [<--i'm not really sure if i correctly translated this])...
I think i would stay quiet in my home until some resistance is formed...then....infiltrate somehow the enemy lines and supply the resistance with information...
...i wouldn't touch a gun, i think........except if any of my relatives/friends die or get wounded cause of the invaders...........then i would get mad and do as much hurt as i can to those bastards...
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run...run like hell.
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Hmmmmmm if an enemy invaded my area......
I'd poison the water supply, become an arsonist (sp?) setting various enemy military structers ablaze, build an fruitcake gun, and start playing random polka songs on a loud speaker while reading vogon poetry. :drevil:
And then the real torture begins............
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Originally posted by redmenace
First off it is a collection of foreign fighters and Iraqis. The iraqis consisting of former bathists and republican gaurd.
According to the Iraqi government the US installed, theres 200,000 of them:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4145585.stm
Doesnt really matter who they are, you're ****ed.
Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
You mean Sven Hassel, right? Great stuff. I´ve read 3 of his books, "Chariots of Hell" being the best.
Sven Hassel was a german soldier, who fought on both fronts. The books are the diaries of his days at the front.
You know they're fiction right?
"The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiques are belated, insincere, incomplete. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient that the public knows... We are today not far from a disaster."
T.E. Lawrence 1920.
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Originally posted by Gank
You know they're fiction right?
Uh?? :wtf:
Where did you hear that? In the books i own of Sven Hassel, it clearly states that the book is based on true life adventures of the author. You wouldn´t be confusing it with someone else, would you?
:doubt:
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It's funny how you assume stuff is fictional.
I thought T E Lawrence was just a writer, but he actually was in the military in WW1, and became liaison officer to the arab tribes....
I went to his house a while back and it brings it home to you, the sense of history in that tiny cottage is amazing....