Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Goober5000 on January 04, 2005, 11:27:38 pm
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This is kind of a belated "first impressions" post, but in the spirit of temporal anomalies, bear with me. ;)
One of the things that struck me when I first heard the monologues was that they were rather hard to follow. They had so many complex sentences and archaic words strung together that I had to really concentrate to follow along. Even then I had to play the cutscenes several times to get the whole thing, and I still didn't grasp the whole thing until I read the printed version.
I was just re-reading the monologues on karajorma's site and it occurred to me that they're rather like the Architect's monologue in Matrix II that way. Complex sentences; fancy words; even a similar tone of voice.
Take a look at the first monologue, which is the worst of the lot. "As they sifted the cremation of dust and bones"; "dismissing the warnings carved into the walls of the sepulchre", etc. They're lovely phrases when written out, but they're rather hard to listen to. :p
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It's poetic, innit? Supposed to read like a piece of old literature from way back when, like a prophecy or a chronicle. They're read like someone preforming Shakespeare or Chaucer or something of the sort. It's very old-fashioned.
I kind of like it, actually - makes you think about things, which is pretty cool for an otherwise fairly brainless blaster of a game.... :)
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I get the feeling the hard to follow nature of them is on purpose. That level of complexity is neccessary for the Bosch character. In his normal operations, he can't really show that, since the NTF is a front for a much grander scheme, so in his private monologues it comes out double.
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I agree. It shows he's not some jealous bigot who just got pissed at the Vasudans for doing better than the Terrans, but a very intelligent and calculating man... :nod:
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Take a look at the first monologue, which is the worst of the lot. "As they sifted the cremation of dust and bones"; "dismissing the warnings carved into the walls of the sepulchre", etc. They're lovely phrases when written out, but they're rather hard to listen to. :p
:wtf: Sepulchre maybe, but it's not like you don't get the idea from the context.
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{aside}
Why would you cremate dust?
{/aside}
Anyone else thinking 'Faust' here?
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I think the dust is the result of the cremation.
And yes, Faustian could be a way to describe it...
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Bosch's monlogues intrigue me greatly. The general tone of voice and the words he uses, its far more different from what he seems to potray to the NTF and the GTVA.
There was a site hosting the audio files of the monologues itself....wonder where it went...
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I thought the monologues were really good. Much better than the FS1 Ancients vids.
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Oh I agree, I love the monologues. Very interesting, very complex - stuff like that isn't written too often nowadays. It's just that they threw me off guard when I first listened to them.
Originally posted by phatosealpha
I get the feeling the hard to follow nature of them is on purpose. That level of complexity is neccessary for the Bosch character. In his normal operations, he can't really show that, since the NTF is a front for a much grander scheme, so in his private monologues it comes out double.
That's an interesting take on it. :)
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I had the feeling of the monologues being overly theatralic and constructed, but maybe that's because I've only heard the german synchronization.
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The monoloque absolutely drips Gothic, the whole storyline does really, that is one of it's main appeals in my opinion, it doesn't even try to be nice with us, and the best 'victory' we ever had only lost us our home planet.
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Originally posted by phatosealpha
I get the feeling the hard to follow nature of them is on purpose. That level of complexity is neccessary for the Bosch character. In his normal operations, he can't really show that, since the NTF is a front for a much grander scheme, so in his private monologues it comes out double.
:nod:
I think that Bosch is portrayed as a sort of quasi-facistic 'enemy leader-stroke-nemesis' ingame... all the briefings, techroom, etc paint him as that way... but the monologues, and to a degree the communications when you first encounter the Iceni, mean he's a lot more complex than that; you realise he has this hidden agenda, something which is so important he's willing to sacrifice millions of lives for.
And there's also a hint of McCarthy (er FS1, not the commie-hunting one) in him, too - saying his actions are for the greater good of the human race, delivering something (himself? ETAK?) to an alien race who humanity is at war with... but at the same time skewed (the apparent Shivan massacre of the Iceni crew).
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As you may have guessed I had to listen to Bosch's turn of phrase quite a few times to get it all down.
As has been said I think it's meant to show that Bosch isn't just some psychopath out to kill everyone. He regrets the deaths that the NTF rebellion has caused but he saw no other way to achieve his goal.
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Originally posted by phatosealpha
I get the feeling the hard to follow nature of them is on purpose. That level of complexity is neccessary for the Bosch character. In his normal operations, he can't really show that, since the NTF is a front for a much grander scheme, so in his private monologues it comes out double.
Agreed.
The first time I ran through the campaign I had the SCP and no cutscenes, so I never saw them. After playing through the campaign, I thought Bosch was a lunatic off on his own little world trying to become ruler of the galaxy.
Then when I finally saw the monologues, it gave me a totally different look at Bosch. He wasn't a monster at all, he was human. It really made him seem like a 3-dimensional character...the Shivans. But their aura of mystery saves them from being extremly cheap.
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Yeah, Bosch wasn't really a bad guy. He just happened to have a bunch of stupid cannon fodder that believed in what he said. He felt his actions were justified, just like McArthur did when he tried to give the avenger prototype to the vasudans in FS1. He wasn't really trying to be yet another incaration of the "hammer of light", he genuinely wanted to save us from the Shivans. To do that, he had to open a line of communication, which no-one had previously been able to do. We know that he eventually did, but unfortunately we will never really find out what happened afterward.
His monologues struck me as very Shakespearian in nature, which is a good thing kinda. If you've read Macbeth then you'll kinda understand what Bosch is talking about.
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It may be that he is both calm, calculating, and brilliant, but also insane. what could be worth the billions of deaths caused by his actions?
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man i would give anything to just talk to one of the story writers for the FS2 campaign. Just to find out what were they thinking of having in the third installation of the game. What role would bosch play in it and stuff like that.
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Strangely....the thought occurs to me.....did Bosch give up more than just millions of lives under his charge? Did he have family for that matter?
I really want to see those cutscenes again. Unfortunately, I don't have the CDs anymore, or a CD writer for that matter :(
For that matter, where are the FS1 cutscenes? I wanna see those too! :D
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Originally posted by Carl
It may be that he is both calm, calculating, and brilliant, but also insane. what could be worth the billions of deaths caused by his actions?
Freespace 3?
Makes you wonder, what is Freespace 2 really about? The Shivans? The Knossos? Capella? Or Bosches crusade into the abyss?
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Freespace 2 is about you playing a mute witness to the horrors that unfold against humanity, as well as witness to the self-damnation of one man for what he sees is the survival of the human race.....
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Originally posted by karajorma
As you may have guessed I had to listen to Bosch's turn of phrase quite a few times to get it all down.
As has been said I think it's meant to show that Bosch isn't just some psychopath out to kill everyone. He regrets the deaths that the NTF rebellion has caused but he saw no other way to achieve his goal.
And also a deep internal conflict (can't think of a better way to phrase that)
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Bosch was written so very well, all three forms of magor literary conflict went into him. Man vs himself, man vs man, and man vs nature. I love this thread.
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I think the idea behind the monolouges was to make you question whether he's really a bad guy or not. By his actions, he's pretty close to the worst monster imaginable, but in his words, he's a not so bad of guy. Who is the real Bosch? Makes one wonder.
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freespace is ABOUT freespace.
remember that 'freespace' was the name scientists first gave subspace. as far as i can see, there was a much grander scale of something, at least hundred-fold what weve seen so far, that wasnt revealed.
it just gets weirder and weirder, mcarthy, bosch, and the shivans, who, by the way, seem to have a more complex agenda than just blowing up anything in their immediate vicinity.
bah... im going to go and pine for freespace three now :)
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Originally posted by Roanoke
I thought the monologues were really good. Much better than the FS1 Ancients vids.
I loved them both the same. They just served two different purposes.
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Originally posted by Carl
It may be that he is both calm, calculating, and brilliant, but also insane. what could be worth the billions of deaths caused by his actions?
The survival of mankind.
Your description matches the impression I have of Bosch best. He's incredibly intelligent, in fact, maybe the only one making the right conclusions. He knows a lot, he knows how to achieve his goals, and he is insane enough to pay whatever price for it. Bosch himself admits the NTF is an organization of fools driven by their hatred against Vasudans. This is not Bosch's motivation. The NTF is merely a tool for him, using the insecurity and hatred of his "followers" to serve his plans.
The monologues give hints, hints about the truth behind the mystery that is the Shivans, hints about what will happen, hints about what had happened.
They also portray the irony, that he, seen as a monster by the people, may in fact be the only one who can save the human race.
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Etak, was it JUST Comm's between S. and T. races? If so.. can he call for a alliance, or the ceaseing of S. forces from kicking T. asses?
If he managed to do that.. we would know of the 'bigger darkenss'\race\problem out there. Which would follow many peoples ideas on what fs3 was going to be about...
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Or did the Shivans 'play' bosch all along, using him to open the Knossos and allow them into Capella?
And what was the 'tragic misunderstanding' between the GTVA and Shivans.... does this mean the Shivans are not xenophobic? If so, why did they attack in the first place?
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So whos got a text verson of these monolouges. Someone mentioned they had them, didnt post the link.
Note: No further replys( By me) will be about this. So dont get angry.
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I guess that unless the guys down at volition release what they were planning as the sotryline for FS3....we'l never know, we can speculate all we want but all of us will have ideas brilliant or not, but they wont be the same and the questions will jus keep going on, my personal opinion however would be : Bosch created ETAK to communicate with the Shivans, the Shivans were intruiged by his attempts and decided to take him in to show him some of the 'greater picture' this in turn would allow Bosch to unlock the secret or begin to unravel the meaning of the shivans, the role of the ancients and perhaps of this 'greater enemy/race' and once he had learnt this he would return to the GTVA and attempt to explain what he has seen in order to save our's and the Vasudan race from extinction....or of course he might just be executed on site of course...but uno 8-)....as i said though, it's all personal speculation, we'l never know. unless of course we can convince the guys at volition to tell us 8-)
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You kind find the written words on the FSDoc website (its the first link in hte set at the very top) or in Karajoma's FAQ (which is in his signature).
Truth to be told, the .wav files are much better.....pity I cant remember which site held 'em...same site also had the .wavs for the other cutscenes (fs1 and FS2).........
Anyone know where is it? :(
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yeah no kidding, that would be great. getting the wav files i mean.
Wondering about Bosch is an interesting endeavor no matter what. There is always a deeper meaning.
I often wonder how he came to be the self proclaimed messiah of humanity. How did he acquire the knowledge that set him on his course? What exactly IS his course?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
And what was the 'tragic misunderstanding' between the GTVA and Shivans.... does this mean the Shivans are not xenophobic? If so, why did they attack in the first place?
I think that perhaps, Bosch had some inside knowledge of what the GTI knew about (and did to?) the Shivans before the Shivan attack on Ross 128/elsewhere.
Perhaps GTI is to blame for the Shivan attitude towards the Terrans and Vasudans?
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hmmm maybe....the GTI have always been a bit stupid and seem to be in systems 'unexplored' by terrans, and maybe, just a theory here, the opening scence for freespace 1, has anyone considered that 'lieutenant ashman a.k.a gamma 3-9er' was in fact a pilot for the GTI and maybe thats how the misunderstanding started?
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Originally posted by Singh
I really want to see those cutscenes again. Unfortunately, I don't have the CDs anymore, or a CD writer for that matter :(
For that matter, where are the FS1 cutscenes? I wanna see those too! :D
FS1 Cutscenes (http://oregonstate.edu/~plankerj/FS1movies/)
FS2 Cutscenes (http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~plankerj/fs2movies/)
Both in avi format (either Divx or Xvid) and hosted by Kosh.
Originally posted by Vertigo1
Yeah, Bosch wasn't really a bad guy.
You see I don't know about this. It's obvious that Bosch believes he has a goal that is worth all the misery he caused but the question is whether he's correct or not. As Aldo says it's possible the Shivans used him to open the knossos portal. He must have discovered its existance from someone and the GTI had been conducting experiments on live shivans. Did they simply give out false information that led him to mistakenly believe there was a chance of peace? MindGames also has an explaination for Bosch that involves him being fooled (although in this case it wasn't the Shivans who did it). Last but not least he could just simply be insane.
I guess we'll never know but it does prove there is a lot more depth to the FS2 plotline than a lot of people claim.
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i beleive it is stated somewhere about bosch formely beinmg a pilot stationed at the GTI base where the Hades rebellion took place as a pilot?
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Originally posted by karajorma
FS1 Cutscenes (http://oregonstate.edu/~plankerj/FS1movies/)
FS2 Cutscenes (http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~plankerj/fs2movies/)
Both in avi format (either Divx or Xvid) and hosted by Kosh.
Thanks man! Owe ya one :D
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Originally posted by dan87uk
i beleive it is stated somewhere about bosch formely beinmg a pilot stationed at the GTI base where the Hades rebellion took place as a pilot?
As a young pilot I battled against the rebels of the great war, the Galactic Terran Intelligence whose research of shivan technology and biology would form the cornerstone of my project.
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yeah i was partially right then, he was there, but against GTI....u got what i meant tho :P
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I just listened to Bosch's 1st Monologue....
Now this is odd...at the end of hte monologue, he mentions the theory that the shivans are birthed from subspace, the result of an angry cosmos to destroy the human race. But if you listen carefully, to the sentences preceding and the tone he uses....it's as if Bosch doesn't believe this, and that he's actually sarcastic when referring to it.......
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Yes, the monologues give away a lot.
*enjoys a folder full of high-quality DivX cutscenes from both FS1 and FS2* :D
And yes Singh, Bosch mocks the ancients on several occasions. The ancients had a very "religious" approach when it came to trying to understand the Shivans. Bosch comes from a totally opposite, scientific approach. (Also listen to the one where he's talking about the jump gates)
He does realize what he's doing, check the nebula monologue for reference. He is ready to pay any price to achieve his goals, no matter what it should be. This is the only and crucial point where he doubts whether he's doing the right thing.
Bosch has only one goal: The continued existance of mankind.
I alone realized our species had no future with the Vasudans. If we are to survive, our destiny must lie elsewhere.
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Originally posted by karajorma
. He must have discovered its existance from someone and the GTI had been conducting experiments on live shivans. Did they simply give out false information that led him to mistakenly believe there was a chance of peace?
That's the interesting thing.. the NTF rebellion was effectively a cover to recover ancient technology from sites in Vasudan space (to determine and open the knossos) ..... but how did Bosch know to even look? And when did he actually get ETAK operational - before, during or after the rebellion?
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The NTF rebellion was much, much more than that. Without the NTF, Bosch would have never been able to follow his plan. Without an army of men willing to die for him (even though for entirely different reasons) he'd have been helpless.
Bosch knew what to look for because he alone knew what the GTI knew. All knowledge they had gathered was lost in the Hades rebellion and thoughout the years of the GTVA. The GTVA "forgot" a lot about the Shivans, probably repressing the idea (certain knowledge?) that they may come again.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
That's the interesting thing.. the NTF rebellion was effectively a cover to recover ancient technology from sites in Vasudan space (to determine and open the knossos) ..... but how did Bosch know to even look? And when did he actually get ETAK operational - before, during or after the rebellion?
Yep. That was the thing I was wondering about. Was ETAK mearly Bosch's version of something the GTI had already for instance?
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
And yes Singh, Bosch mocks the ancients on several occasions. The ancients had a very "religious" approach when it came to trying to understand the Shivans. Bosch comes from a totally opposite, scientific approach. (Also listen to the one where he's talking about the jump gates)
[/I]
True.
But I just saw the FS1 ancient cutscenes....both are very, very contrasting and different in nature. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients sing the tune that they trangressed into subspace, and the Shivans were the direct result of this transgression. Yet, Bosch dismisses this, almost as if he knows the real truth of their nature. Perhaps he has seen something more than just the Ancient's legacy, something else entirely.
But whom is hte right one here? Is Bosch right, or the ancients? Which theory will hold true? or through some strange twist of fate, was FS3 meant to be the combination of both? Or is it merely the Denial of both assumptions?
The shivans opened up a subspace vortex of unimaginable proportions in the capella system, but the most important question is not why but where did they go, and what did they do there? From the movie, it appears that the shivans actually triggered the nova as well as a secondary explosion of sorts. the first was the nova we saw consuming everything, but what was the second? From what we could gleam, this had nothing to do with the Shivan's main motives or movements, or their earlier hatred against the Terrans, as they made no further attempts to move the Sathanas fleet towards the terrans.
This begs the question: did the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis suffer a similar fate thousands - if not millions of years before? If the shivans were there, beyond the Knossos, why didn't they invade the ancients with all the sathanii? The theory of different fleets for different purposes is the most likely answer here....yet it seems inadequate.....we need a [v] God damnit!!! WE NEED FS3!! ARAAARRRRRGHHHHH!!!!!
*runs around screaming as his mind is tortured by an eternity of questions...
Also, something strange occured during the endpart1 cutscene....
If you look on when the Rakshasha and the Deimos are fighting, in the background you can observe a Hapshetput class destroyer being blown to smithereens...but this isn't hte interesting bit. Instead observe the Moloch class corvette that's right nearby it, it appears to be firing a shivan beam at an enemy ship of unknown class and configuration, but the glows appears to be in the wrong place. It could just have been an explosion effect though.
But skip a bit forwards, to after the shivans jump out. Now see the same beam....it's originating from the unknown ship! and it is clearly shivan in nature! Meaning that either the ships in the background are SOC with refitted shivan beams, or shivans were firing on each other for some same reason........
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I have to disagree with the GTVA forgetting or repressing. If it had been over the course of hundreds of years i would agree, but not 32. Bosch knew exactly what to look for, i agree with that, he knew exactly what he was doing, the only thing he left to chance was how the shivans would react. That was his only unknown. Everything else was clearly calculated.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
I alone realized our species had no future with the Vasudans. If we are to survive, our destiny must lie elsewhere.
So... what? The Vasudans are a curse on the Terran's existance? What is that supposed to mean? That Terrans and Vasudans aren't even supposed to intermingle? What?
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
The NTF rebellion was much, much more than that. Without the NTF, Bosch would have never been able to follow his plan. Without an army of men willing to die for him (even though for entirely different reasons) he'd have been helpless.
Bosch knew what to look for because he alone knew what the GTI knew. All knowledge they had gathered was lost in the Hades rebellion and thoughout the years of the GTVA. The GTVA "forgot" a lot about the Shivans, probably repressing the idea (certain knowledge?) that they may come again.
Which is what I find hard to believe. GTVI would have a really hard time explaining how they lost such knowledge, and to me, it seems all to suspicious they pawned it off on the destruction of the hades.....they'd have a hell of a lot more use for it when nobody else knows they know about it.
Did Bosch really go to excavate things from deneb? or did he go to steal them? If the GTVI buried tihs knowledge, they'd definately want nobody to touch it...but Bosch knew, and he knew how to get it. It was probably the reason the GTVI didn't want him destroyed either, since he held the information they had, and they couldn't afford to loose it either.
The ETAK was definately something Bosch got from before, but continued to enhance throughout the journey, as seen by the Sunder and the Hinton. Of course, due to alpha 1 he failed in that objective, and had to settle for something crude and rudimentary. If it was otherwise, I doubt he'd have been able to do much else.........
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Originally posted by Raa
So... what? The Vasudans are a curse on the Terran's existance? What is that supposed to mean? That Terrans and Vasudans aren't even supposed to intermingle? What?
Or simply that the Shivans represent an opportunity that the Vasudans don't......an opportunity to grow perhaps? Or simply a case of 'better to be the Devils right hand man than in his path'?
Of course, if Bosch fought the GTI he probably also fought the Vasudans - and saw their homeworld crumble. He definately understands hatred of the Vasudans, that's for sure.
Originally posted by Singh
Which is what I find hard to believe. GTVI would have a really hard time explaining how they lost such knowledge, and to me, it seems all to suspicious they pawned it off on the destruction of the hades.....they'd have a hell of a lot more use for it when nobody else knows they know about it.
Did Bosch really go to excavate things from deneb? or did he go to steal them? If the GTVI buried tihs knowledge, they'd definately want nobody to touch it...but Bosch knew, and he knew how to get it. It was probably the reason the GTVI didn't want him destroyed either, since he held the information they had, and they couldn't afford to loose it either.
The ETAK was definately something Bosch got from before, but continued to enhance throughout the journey, as seen by the Sunder and the Hinton. Of course, due to alpha 1 he failed in that objective, and had to settle for something crude and rudimentary. If it was otherwise, I doubt he'd have been able to do much else.........
Or it could be that the GTVI was playing Bosch for their own purposes.... maybe they lost control, and that's why they panicked when he made contact with the Shivans and 'got away'. They seemed pretty desperate to get their hands on ETAK by the end, after all.
Maybe what the GTVI found - from the war and from the GTI - scared the hell out of them. They found something which they could not make public, because it would destroy the alliance to know. Maybe it wasn't even about the Shivans, maybe it was about the Ancients, or even the Vasudans.....
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i think perhaps the GTI accidentally let the shivans into ross128 somehow and tried to do somthing that went horribly wrong, like they met a lone cruiser that was making a 'dead' patrol for the shivans when the gti tried to capture it perhaps which alerted the shivans?? and bosch maybe delved far enough into the GTVI's database on old GTI activities that he learnt of the ancients devices and pehaps other shivan information
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If the GTVI knew of a Knossos device - a device capable of re-opening the route to Sol - why would they hide knowledge of it?
And if the reason for that was security - i.e. the fear of the Shivans using it* - why leave it unguarded in a provincial system?
(*a very strange fear, as the Shivans used a multitude of unknown / unstable nodes during the Great War)
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that begs the question: how exactly did the shivans stumble onto the terrans and vasudans?
A clue might be the fact that they were in conflict. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients tresspassed into subspace, and the shivans took note. But it was after the destruction of billions took place that the Shivans interrupted that war. Could something similar had happened for the terran/vasudan forces?
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Originally posted by Singh
that begs the question: how exactly did the shivans stumble onto the terrans and vasudans?
A clue might be the fact that they were in conflict. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients tresspassed into subspace, and the shivans took note. But it was after the destruction of billions took place that the Shivans interrupted that war. Could something similar had happened for the terran/vasudan forces?
It's a theory that fits with the Shivans reappearance taking place during the NTF conflict. But it doesn't seem logical how supernova-ing Capella would stop a conflict; the Shivan fleet of Sathani was more than capable of wiping out the GTVa, so why didn't they?
And what did Bosch tell them in the first place...his monologue speaks of a tentative alliance, but what can humanity offer a race like the Shivans?
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Originally posted by Raa
So... what? The Vasudans are a curse on the Terran's existance? What is that supposed to mean? That Terrans and Vasudans aren't even supposed to intermingle? What?
No, you're looking at this from a wrong point of view. The Vasudans didnt have as much luck as the Terrans.
Originally posted by Singh
But I just saw the FS1 ancient cutscenes....both are very, very contrasting and different in nature. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients sing the tune that they trangressed into subspace, and the Shivans were the direct result of this transgression. Yet, Bosch dismisses this, almost as if he knows the real truth of their nature. Perhaps he has seen something more than just the Ancient's legacy, something else entirely.
But whom is hte right one here? Is Bosch right, or the ancients? Which theory will hold true? or through some strange twist of fate, was FS3 meant to be the combination of both? Or is it merely the Denial of both assumptions?
No, they do not contrast, in fact they fit together like two opposite pieces in a puzzle. He hasn't seen something more, but has reached his own conclusions, probably with the help of material the GTI gathered. Bosch is certain of why things happened, and how, and he is amused of the explanations the Ancients came up with to describe the Shivans' behaviour. He thinks it ironic than in a certain way they were so right... and in the end, yet so wrong.
The shivans opened up a subspace vortex of unimaginable proportions in the capella system, but the most important question is not why but where did they go, and what did they do there? From the movie, it appears that the shivans actually triggered the nova as well as a secondary explosion of sorts. the first was the nova we saw consuming everything, but what was the second? From what we could gleam, this had nothing to do with the Shivan's main motives or movements, or their earlier hatred against the Terrans, as they made no further attempts to move the Sathanas fleet towards the terrans.
The second explosion is also from the supernova. It's the actual nova. And in contrast to what you said, isn't it rather probable that the Shivans actually closed a "gigantic node" (if you want to put it that way) around the Capellan sun? Think of what happened with the Lucifer, or the Bastion.
This begs the question: did the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis suffer a similar fate thousands - if not millions of years before? If the shivans were there, beyond the Knossos, why didn't they invade the ancients with all the sathanii?
Maybe because different ships serve different purposes? :p
The Lucifer is the only Shivan vessel that ever attacked a planet. The Sathanas is the only Shivan vessel that has (with our knowledge) caused a supernova.
And yes, listen to Bosch's monologue in the nebula. It is indeed possible that the nebula was "created" just that way. It's only when he wonders about the age of the nebulae, and supernova remnants, that doubt arises in him about his plan.
Also, something strange occured during the endpart1 cutscene....
If you look on when the Rakshasha and the Deimos are fighting, in the background you can observe a Hapshetput class destroyer being blown to smithereens...but this isn't hte interesting bit. Instead observe the Moloch class corvette that's right nearby it, it appears to be firing a shivan beam at an enemy ship of unknown class and configuration, but the glows appears to be in the wrong place. It could just have been an explosion effect though.
Really? It just fires on the circling Deimos for me. Absolutely nothing weird there. Could you post a screenie?
But skip a bit forwards, to after the shivans jump out. Now see the same beam....it's originating from the unknown ship! and it is clearly shivan in nature! Meaning that either the ships in the background are SOC with refitted shivan beams, or shivans were firing on each other for some same reason........
No, the Moloch is firing on the Deimos with beams far off in the background. I really, really can't see anything there. Again, screenies?
Originally posted by Singh
Which is what I find hard to believe. GTVI would have a really hard time explaining how they lost such knowledge, and to me, it seems all to suspicious they pawned it off on the destruction of the hades.....they'd have a hell of a lot more use for it when nobody else knows they know about it.
Heheh, caught you there. GTVA != GTVI. It's the same as if you assumed GTA = GTI in FS1, which obviously wasn't the case.
Did Bosch really go to excavate things from deneb? or did he go to steal them? If the GTVI buried tihs knowledge, they'd definately want nobody to touch it...but Bosch knew, and he knew how to get it. It was probably the reason the GTVI didn't want him destroyed either, since he held the information they had, and they couldn't afford to loose it either.
You're definately thinking along the right lines now.
The ETAK was definately something Bosch got from before, but continued to enhance throughout the journey, as seen by the Sunder and the Hinton. Of course, due to alpha 1 he failed in that objective, and had to settle for something crude and rudimentary. If it was otherwise, I doubt he'd have been able to do much else.........
He didn't fail. Everything worked out more or less like planned. He triggered the self destruct on the Iceni, and that was planned. He didn't want ETAK to fall into anyone else's hands. As for why it was "rudimentary and crude", his crew probably panicked. They didn't know Bosch's true motives... until it was too late for them. They (the NTF) were merely pawns in his game of chess.
Originally posted by aldo_14
And what did Bosch tell them in the first place...his monologue speaks of a tentative alliance, but what can humanity offer a race like the Shivans?
Help. Help to defeat the GTVA. Not that they'd need it, but it could... simplify things. It's not like he's forming an alliance, he's rather "pleading for mercy". Bosch uses the only thing, a random coinsidence that could ensure the survival of the human race: The fact that Sol is cut off, unable to ever get into a surrounding system again, IF the GTVA is stopped. The future, is Sol.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Help. Help to defeat the GTVA. Not that they'd need it, but it could... simplify things. It's not like he's forming an alliance, he's rather "pleading for mercy". Bosch uses the only thing, a random coinsidence that could ensure the survival of the human race: The fact that Sol is cut off, unable to ever get into a surrounding system again, IF the GTVA is stopped. The future, is Sol.
But what could Bosch offer? His rebellion is crushed, his crew and flagship gone, he's alone with some command crew on a Shivan vessel. All he can offer is intel... intel on a species already vastly inferior and outnumbered. If the Shivans truly want to defeat the GTVA, they don't need Bosch. He's more useful if they want peace, because he's a cultural link.
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I think Bosch offered himself....study mono 3. The Ravana is trailing the Iceni at a distance, but yet not firing upon it. This is odd, to say the least, as the destroyer fired upon all other vessel immediately after spotting them....yet it knew, and it simply followed....as if knowing he was onboard....were they waiting for him?
Could it be that ETAK attracted their attention way before it was activated?
I'll answer the rest of LS's points a bit later...
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Originally posted by aldo_14
If the GTVI knew of a Knossos device - a device capable of re-opening the route to Sol - why would they hide knowledge of it?
Because they are GTVI? and they did have other plans, like maybe they controlled Bosch to build Etak and use that "Tested that it works
Remember how GTVI didn't try stop Bosch even if they could do that
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Originally posted by Singh
I think Bosch offered himself....study mono 3. The Ravana is trailing the Iceni at a distance, but yet not firing upon it. This is odd, to say the least, as the destroyer fired upon all other vessel immediately after spotting them....yet it knew, and it simply followed....as if knowing he was onboard....were they waiting for him?
Could it be that ETAK attracted their attention way before it was activated?
I'll answer the rest of LS's points a bit later...
Welcome into my parlour, said the spider to the fly
EDIT; of course, Bosch talks about bringing the destroyers to him, so maybe he's broadcasting something to get the Shivans attention....
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There's a simpler explanation.
The Iceni is capable of outrunning a Ravana. That's what it is doing. Bosch does not wish to take the chance he and his work will be destroyed until he has made positive contact with the Shivans.
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Ravanas have fighters & jumpdrives.
Oh, and incidentally; listen to monologue 4. Specifically the emphasis he puts on the 'Vasudan' part when saying
"As a young pilot I battled against the rebels of the great war, the Galactic Terran Intelligence whose research of shivan technology and biology would form the cornerstone of my project. The Terran-Vasudan alliance buried this knowledge but I resurrected it."
It's a heavy, contemptuous emphasis... like he blames the Vasudans for something.....
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Originally posted by Singh
I think Bosch offered himself....study mono 3. The Ravana is trailing the Iceni at a distance, but yet not firing upon it. This is odd, to say the least, as the destroyer fired upon all other vessel immediately after spotting them....yet it knew, and it simply followed....as if knowing he was onboard....were they waiting for him?
Could it be that ETAK attracted their attention way before it was activated?
I'll answer the rest of LS's points a bit later...
Precisely, Bosch either attracted there attention with somthing, perhaps like a breadcrumbs trail just for the shivans to pick up, then once they detected ETAK abord they were impressed or intruiged as to what they have abord and decided to shadow them rather than engage
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Interesting thing 2: look at the symbolism in mono2; (I think...) a new star is forming by 'swallowing' up the matter of another - is this what Bosch is trying to achieve?
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Perhaps it was deliberate, Bosch had the Shivans lock the GTVA into thier own space. He managed to find something in the Ancients archievs about 'something'. Perhaps the millions he refers to are those who will die in Capella, but again, we arn't able to get any deffinite answers (which is probably for the best)
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that is an interesting point aldo, i never thought of it that way before....but now you mention it its kind of plausable, although i always thought it was a black hole before drawing from the sun?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Ravanas have fighters & jumpdrives.
The Iceni has jumpdrives too, which it could use to escape from both the destroyer and the destroyer's fighters. And we've never seen a ship canonically make a "tactical"-scale jump, so they might not be possible. The Ravana can't close to engage or launch fighters without spooking and possibly losing its prey, so it trails and calls in somebody else to do the job.
The Iceni outrunning it and the Shivans not attacking because of the transmissions are not necessarily mutually exculsive, either.
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Originally posted by dan87uk
that is an interesting point aldo, i never thought of it that way before....but now you mention it its kind of plausable, although i always thought it was a black hole before drawing from the sun?
I'm not sure. Looking at it, IMO it's closer to a protostar; also, the only pictures (mocked up, obviously) I can find of a black hole shows them as being a black disk or sphere.
( http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=black%20hole&hl=en&lr=&safe=of**client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi)
Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Iceni has jumpdrives too, which it could use to escape from both the destroyer and the destroyer's fighters. And we've never seen a ship canonically make a "tactical"-scale jump, so they might not be possible. The Ravana can't close to engage or launch fighters without spooking and possibly losing its prey, so it trails and calls in somebody else to do the job.
The Iceni outrunning it and the Shivans not attacking because of the transmissions are not necessarily mutually exculsive, either.
That depends on the definition of 'tactical scale' jump. Ships can definately jump in very close to an enemy ship to attack; just look at the Colosssus' appearance. If it was a recon 'chase', why use such a large ship? Why not a fighter wing or a Moloch?
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Black holes are spheric if they have no rotation or they are spheric with a slight alongation in the "equator" if they rotate.
A fighter wing should be able to jump at least near a capital ship. When persuing the Iceni, one of your wingmen says something along the lines of "Command gave us the wrong coordinates" and the distance to the Iceni was, unless I'm mistaken, less than 6Km.
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yes but when a black hole comes in close proximity to a sun then it has the effect of drawing the light and causes the sun to slowly shed its layers towards it, the black hole cant take it all at once so the swirl is created in the black hole's gravametric pattern
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I had this theory that the Shivans are from a different 'dimension', for want of a better term, and that being aliens, we can assume they think differently.
I also figured they are attracted to subspace disturbances, in the way Sandworms in Dune are attracted to vibrations caused by people crossing the desert.
In the beginning of the GTA, these subspace 'vibrations' would not be enough to attract them, but once lots of systems start being colonised and subspace travel became more common, the increasing strength of the vibrations would have been noticed by them.
As for Capella - Clearly they are harnessing something about it - Maybe it's energy? - To transport themselves back to their own dimension, or something along those lines; Why else would they sacrifice half their Sathanas fleet to do so?
If they just wanted to trash the Capella system, they would have had more than enough Sathanas ships to do so and would have likely lost a lot less ships.
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These in particular, are the scenes im talking about:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/shivanmystery1.jpg)
observe in the highlighted corner the red beam.
Now, for a different picture, unfortunately its pretty bad quality so i apologize in advance.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/shivanmystery2.jpg)
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Originally posted by dan87uk
that is an interesting point aldo, i never thought of it that way before....but now you mention it its kind of plausable, although i always thought it was a black hole before drawing from the sun?
What you're seeing in the 2nd monologue is a white dwarf (an older nearly used up star) feeding off of a yellow giant (a fairly old star in the last days before it too becomes a white dwarf).
When a white dwarf feeds too heavily on its companion star it can cause the white dwarf to supernova.
There you go guys. Draw what symbolism you can from that :D
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lol perhaps it was coincidence, or perhaps bosch had a heads up of what was going to happen then?
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Iceni has jumpdrives too, which it could use to escape from both the destroyer and the destroyer's fighters. And we've never seen a ship canonically make a "tactical"-scale jump, so they might not be possible. The Ravana can't close to engage or launch fighters without spooking and possibly losing its prey, so it trails and calls in somebody else to do the job.
The Iceni outrunning it and the Shivans not attacking because of the transmissions are not necessarily mutually exculsive, either.
Listen at what Bosch is saying while the Ravana is after it. It doesn't sound as he is running from anyone.
He is somewhat shakein in his belief, but that cutscene never gave me the impression of Bosch running from the Ravana. He came to FIND the shivans.
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Originally posted by Cyker
I also figured they are attracted to subspace disturbances, in the way Sandworms in Dune are attracted to vibrations caused by people crossing the desert.
In the beginning of the GTA, these subspace 'vibrations' would not be enough to attract them, but once lots of systems start being colonised and subspace travel became more common, the increasing strength of the vibrations would have been noticed by them.
That's pretty much what I always believed the Shivans were. Not a 'civilised' stellar race as we would imagine it (Planets, bases, trade, etc.), but part of a 'natural' cycle of destruction. Bosch somehow knew how to stop it, possibly. However, why did he then have Romig open up the Knossos portal? The loss of that access point doesn't neccesitate the blocking off of all Shivans (Ross 128 as an example). Course there is flaws with all arguments, except of course the reason (if any), that there was going to be given in you-know-what.
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Why are the screnshots in lower quality? Can anyone get a higher qual, scrennie for me?
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Originally posted by Charismatic
Why are the screnshots in lower quality? Can anyone get a higher qual, scrennie for me?
Why dont you just try watching them yourself instead of being lazy?
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Bosch opened the the Knossos to actually lure the Shivans Back to GTVA space.
Originally posted by Singh
These in particular, are the scenes im talking about:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/shivanmystery1.jpg)
observe in the highlighted corner the red beam.
Now, for a different picture, unfortunately its pretty bad quality so i apologize in advance.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/shivanmystery2.jpg)
#1: Yes, it's a beam firing at the exploding capital ship in thw background. It is partly covered by the shockwave and the Moloch, though. The ship firing the beam is attacked by a Deimos.
#2: The beam is still firing, but not hitting anything anymore as the ship blew up. This matches the in-game behaviour of beam turrets that keep shooting blank space after a ship exploded.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Bosch opened the the Knossos to actually lure the Shivans Back to GTVA space.
Or he opened it to contact them, unconcerned over whether the consequence was a new war. Arguably. both are the same thing.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Bosch opened the the Knossos to actually lure the Shivans Back to GTVA space.
#1: Yes, it's a beam firing at the exploding capital ship in thw background. It is partly covered by the shockwave and the Moloch, though. The ship firing the beam is attacked by a Deimos.
#2: The beam is still firing, but not hitting anything anymore as the ship blew up. This matches the in-game behaviour of beam turrets that keep shooting blank space after a ship exploded.
Yes. But look at the origin of the beam. It appears in those two pics that a shivan beam is hitting another shivan vessel, while a GTVA vessel appears to be attacking it and giving the other shivan vessel cover....
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Reading his monologues in karajorma's site, I notniced he deeply regrets of the making of Neo Terran Front, and say they are just a bunch of stupid cattle driven by their hatred and fear towards the Vasudan.
And he also says his regime brought nothing but tyranny and destruction.
Apparently he is feeling a guilt of his actions.
The conclusion is, perhaps he is insane, but certainly not stupid.
He has a clear motivation for his acts, and he believes it's for the greater benefit of human race.
Unlike ohter NTF sects, He has no hatred toward Vasudans, and regret the violent acts of NTF towards the Vasudan.
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Originally posted by Singh
Yes. But look at the origin of the beam. It appears in those two pics that a shivan beam is hitting another shivan vessel, while a GTVA vessel appears to be attacking it and giving the other shivan vessel cover....
Rather than being the Key to Unlock Freespace 3, however, it is more likely just another boo-boo from the masterminds behind Battle of Deneb: Lucy Shoots First.
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Originally posted by Blaise Russel
Rather than being the Key to Unlock Freespace 3, however, it is more likely just another boo-boo from the masterminds behind Battle of Deneb: Lucy Shoots First.
still damn odd if you ask me :P
surprised nobody else even noticed it tho....
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Aldo: The same thing I'm saying. He can only contact them if they're there in the first place. :)
Ane we know Bosch is a man that doesn't mind any consequences.
Singh: No. It's a vasudan vessel that blows up AFAIS.
Originally posted by DIO
Reading his monologues in karajorma's site, I notniced he deeply regrets of the making of Neo Terran Front, and say they are just a bunch of stupid cattle driven by their hatred and fear towards the Vasudan.
And he also says his regime brought nothing but tyranny and destruction.
Apparently he is feeling a guilt of his actions.
The conclusion is, perhaps he is insane, but certainly not stupid.
He has a clear motivation for his acts, and he believes it's for the greater benefit of human race.
Unlike ohter NTF sects, He has no hatred toward Vasudans, and regret the violent acts of NTF towards the Vasudan.
He is not feeling regret or guilt. You have to listen and watch the movies - his tone is what gives away his feelings. It is irony, what he's feeling.
The only point of doubt and regret is when he enters the nebula, wondering how old it may be.
And yes, he has no hatred against the Vasudans, but he wants humanity to survive... at any cost.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Singh: No. It's a vasudan vessel that blows up AFAIS.
errr...no. The vasudan vessel blows in the first scene/pic I posted. The highlighted section clearly shows a Moloch class corvette with a red beam either hitting it or originating from it. The second pic shows the same pic a few seconds later with the red beam going through the same patch of space, meaning the Moloch has either moved away from or been destroyed by the big red shivan beam firing at it.
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The Moloch has moved away, yes. And the beam was not firing AT the Moloch, but behind it. If you look closely, you can see the beam ends in the exploding vessel, and is merely covered by the shockwave and the Moloch (which is in front of it, so you don't see it anymore). The beam originates from another Shivan ship in the background.
In the second image the beam is now of course going its whole length, as it isnt stopped by the Vasudan vessel anymore which blew up. The Moloch has moved on, and doesn't obscure it either, anymore.
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I suppose Bosch's monologues are the ultimate embodiment of 'The ends justify the means'.
Bosch believed that no matter how poorly he was known to history, no matter how many people died because of his actions, that what he was doing was ultimately for our 'good'. Whether this was the rambling of a genius who was right or a madman who was wrong, I'm not sure, but either way, whatever he was doing was going to be the pivot point of FS3 imho.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
The Moloch has moved away, yes. And the beam was not firing AT the Moloch, but behind it. If you look closely, you can see the beam ends in the exploding vessel, and is merely covered by the shockwave and the Moloch (which is in front of it, so you don't see it anymore). The beam originates from another Shivan ship in the background.
In the second image the beam is now of course going its whole length, as it isnt stopped by the Vasudan vessel anymore which blew up. The Moloch has moved on, and doesn't obscure it either, anymore.
No, it cant be covered by the shockwave, or we wouldn't have been able to see it hit the moloch in hte first place (remember, their is shockwave wash there as well). Or if not there, at least it would be visible inside hte 'inner' black part or at least hitting the ship as it exploded, none of which were observed.
However, i do conceed that it could just be the Moloch moved into the way of hte beam as it was firing at the Destroyer, but it still doesn't discount the possibility of something else...wonder if its a volition cookie...most likely a mistake tho.
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I heard someone needed the wavs, I don't have them (they're to big to be uploaded) but I uploaded mp3 versions of the 4 monologues
Here they are
4 Monologues (10.7Mb) (http://fs2.kissifrot.com/Mono1to4.rar)