Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on January 13, 2005, 07:30:02 am

Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 13, 2005, 07:30:02 am
[q]
Some of you (and clearly the bad guys are among them) don’t always remember that this game, and all accounts and derivative products, are the property of the United States Army. When you tamper with the game, not only are you breaking the EULA you’re misusing Army property – and, worse, you’re misusing US Army computer programs and equipment.

Tampering with software and servers owned or used by the Army is cyber crime.

In the early 1940’s, Japan learned an important lesson – “let the sleeping giant lie.” We may not react swiftly, but when we do it’s with unstoppable force. The Army has partners that deal with cyber crime as a matter of course. These include not just various Army IT departments, but also the Department of Justice, the Secret Service, and the Federal Bureau of Investigations.

It’s going to get uncomfortable for some of the bad guys, but you know what? They brought it on themselves. Knowing this anyone who continues to be bad is just plain foolish. Keep trying, though. Sooner or later the bad guy will realize we’ve known about him for a while… and by then it’s too late.

Allow me to speak directly to the bad guys for a moment: When you get banned, know that we know and have records showing you were doing something that’s a violation of terms of service, breaks your EULA, and also happens to be against the law. We know who you are, and can track down where you play from. We have incontrovertible proof you did something illegal. The Army is angry, and we’re coming for you.
[/q]

Yee haw.

(quoted on Bluesnews.com)
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Fineus on January 13, 2005, 07:36:28 am
God bless the police state.

Not that I think they're wrong for dealing with cheaters and software pirates in the same way that any other company should.

But who exactly are they threatening here? From one point of view.. any cracked version of AA used by any small time user will bring down the brunt of the American Army and federal services?
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 13, 2005, 07:47:53 am
This amuses me;

n the early 1940’s, Japan learned an important lesson – “let the sleeping giant lie.” We may not react swiftly, but when we do it’s with unstoppable force

The Army is angry, and we’re coming for you.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: BlackDove on January 13, 2005, 07:48:15 am
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SOOOOOOOOOOO SCAAAAAAAAAAARED

They can suck me.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Drew on January 13, 2005, 07:57:39 am
(the game) Americas Army has been plaged by hackers over its lifetime.  Lamers from CS come over and code exploits and ****, and really end up ruining things.  The Army is doing alot constantly update softwere, but hackers pop up and ruin the Army's million dollar recruitment tool. Hacking servers is against the law in any modern country. This is called intimidation, not cruel or unusal anything. The Army is probably the most effecient US government body, and they really dont take **** from the outside that well.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Fineus on January 13, 2005, 08:00:43 am
Ahh, but if they were really clever - having ID'd the hackers they'd employ them.

Why?

Because these hackers have found ways around code endorsed by the US Army. Seems to me that the army could stand to learn a lot more by employing them than by being so suprised that they got hacked.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 13, 2005, 08:12:06 am
I'm just wondering why they put out such an appallingly badly worded press release.... do they really expect people to go "Ooh, the Army's after me!  Scary!"

and is the comparison to WW2 really required?

NB: to be honest, the idea of using a game to literally indoctrinate kids into joining the army (any army), I find pretty morally repugnant.  Like the scary man who offers to show you puppies in the back of his unmarked van.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Deathstorm V2 on January 13, 2005, 09:05:53 am
The concept of the game is troubling in the least.  

Personally, I refuse to play games based on real conflicts, and if this one is being uses as a recruiting tool then I have to agree with Aldo's comments.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Unknown Target on January 13, 2005, 09:42:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kalfireth
Ahh, but if they were really clever - having ID'd the hackers they'd employ them.

Why?

Because these hackers have found ways around code endorsed by the US Army. Seems to me that the army could stand to learn a lot more by employing them than by being so suprised that they got hacked.



It's usually a bunch of loser kids...so are you saying that the Army should employ a bunch of 13 year old script kiddies with cracking voices?
A lot of the times, the hacks are distributed, so it may not just be the same person that's cheating and made the hack.


Also, I used to play AA:O, but the problem is, the game went bonkers after about the third patch. It got popular, you got the CS guys (the bad ones---I'm playing CS:Source now, and it's pretty good), come over and scream and ***** and moan and etc, and the whole thing just went to hell.

Sad, too, the game used to be incredible, with great players.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Fineus on January 13, 2005, 09:46:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target

It's usually a bunch of loser kids...so are you saying that the Army should employ a bunch of 13 year old script kiddies with cracking voices?

Who can apparently think of ways around things that the currently employed code monkeys can't.

I might not give them full time employment - but I'd certainly try and learn a thing or two from them before I started chucking my weight around in punishment.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 13, 2005, 09:51:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kalfireth

Who can apparently think of ways around things that the currently employed code monkeys can't.

I might not give them full time employment - but I'd certainly try and learn a thing or two from them before I started chucking my weight around in punishment.


The thing is that finding a problem is a different set of skills to fixing it.  Once they find out they're doing something, they can quickly figure out what and how; there's not much use in hiring a 'one-trick pony.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Fineus on January 13, 2005, 09:58:22 am
But they should certainly learn from them.

Don't get me wrong - I can see where you're coming from. I think that I was wrong to suggest actually hiring them as employees - however they could turn the situation to their advantage. Imagine a.. reward system for people who identify cracks. Actually encourage cracking the system and reporting the crack as soon as you've done it, without actually using it to do any damage.

What you end up with is a horde of nerdy coding kids who - wanting to get ahead in the scheme of things - search out these cracks for free and report them. Those that report them get some kind of reward and those that miss-use them can have the book thrown at them as per normal.

Don't ask me what rewards you might have though... a free years online subscription or something perhaps... some other small insentive.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Flipside on January 13, 2005, 10:29:30 am
Working from deep in the heart of the seething Metropolis to the deserted outbacks of Arizona, a crack team of Cyber-hunter soldiers are working day and night to hunt down the evil men who commit cyber terrorism on a nightly basis. Without these men and women, thousands of innocent civilians would be at mortal risk of not being able to play an online game.

America sleeps safer in it's bed knowing their tax-dollar is buffering them from the terror of the bored teenager.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Deepblue on January 13, 2005, 12:48:10 pm
Funny thing is that if you play older versions (namely 2.1 in my case) of AA, all of the whining n00bs and cheaters go to the new version and some veterans stay on the old because updating can be a pain. There are only around 8 servers on but it is enough, especially if you like Bridge Crossing.

The absolutely greatest thing about the game is that
A. It is as fun as hell.
B. It is free.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Drew on January 13, 2005, 04:24:18 pm
it is fun as hell. it also attracts CS players and god knows CS players have the smallest dicks in the world.

Most crack out there are scripts that the smart ones put together so that any gimp can exploit security holes.  Nobody really knows who made the programs, all the server admins can do is read punkbuster logs and pin the lamers who exploit the scripts. So the army cant really  reqruit master crackers anyway simply because of fedral law, which, in the united states, isnt the exact responsibilty of the army.

you would have millions of people claiming theyv identified a crack. And what about the assholes who rip up servers just for the hell of it?  "haha dumbass army see if i care about the reward, you just lost millions for server repairs haha"  thats a smart idea.

if men were angels....
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Deepblue on January 13, 2005, 04:26:06 pm
The problem for CS players is that AA is NOT CS. If you go rushing out guns blazing, you WILL die, and quickly. It takes careful measured pacing, a good ear, and a good aim.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Rictor on January 13, 2005, 04:33:10 pm
I hope some Russian 15 year olds hack these morons back to the 17th century.

oh, and

(http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20020605l.gif)
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Drew on January 13, 2005, 06:18:28 pm
moron
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Ford Prefect on January 13, 2005, 06:37:53 pm
(http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Forte115-OmgHax.jpg)
Title: Americas Army
Post by: demon442 on January 13, 2005, 09:28:40 pm
The reaon they make the WWII reference is because that's all they've got.  The US army isn't suited for technical work anyway, their mental conditioning makes even their IT departments just no-gun combat teams.

And I dont agree with using video games as a recruitment tool either.  The way I see it, if the standard annoyance tactics fail, then they're probably gonna go to college and make something of themselves anyway.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Vertigo1 on January 13, 2005, 10:49:05 pm
Meh, I seriously hope they start going after cheaters.  The fewer the better IMO.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: JR2000Z on January 14, 2005, 01:19:28 am
Quote
Originally posted by demon442
The reaon they make the WWII reference is because that's all they've got.  The US army isn't suited for technical work anyway, their mental conditioning makes even their IT departments just no-gun combat teams.

:rolleyes:
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2005, 03:14:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by demon442
The reaon they make the WWII reference is because that's all they've got.  The US army isn't suited for technical work anyway, their mental conditioning makes even their IT departments just no-gun combat teams.


In the interest of fairness, I'd just like to point out these sort of things are usually subcontracted to specialists.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: vyper on January 14, 2005, 04:07:28 am
Quote
Originally posted by demon442
if the standard annoyance tactics fail, then they're probably gonna go to college and make something of themselves anyway.


:yes: :D
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Unknown Target on January 14, 2005, 05:10:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by demon442
The reaon they make the WWII reference is because that's all they've got.  The US army isn't suited for technical work anyway, their mental conditioning makes even their IT departments just no-gun combat teams.

And I dont agree with using video games as a recruitment tool either.  The way I see it, if the standard annoyance tactics fail, then they're probably gonna go to college and make something of themselves anyway.


Once again, more dumb-nutted, ill-informed America blasting comments :p
Title: Americas Army
Post by: vyper on January 14, 2005, 05:20:00 am
Makes a pleasant change from dumb nutted, ill informed Americans blasting.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on January 14, 2005, 05:21:37 am
I hate crackers. SO much.

"Take 'em down, boys. Make me proud!"

And if a game is enough to make you join the Army, You DESERVE to sign your life away.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: vyper on January 14, 2005, 05:23:15 am
You know gaming contains very subtle mental suggestions.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2005, 05:27:34 am
Especially to the young (it's deliberately targeted at the 13+ age group; i.e. kids)
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on January 14, 2005, 05:30:03 am
You're joking, right? I'll just assume you guys are joking, because I don't have either of you guys figured as 'tards :p
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2005, 05:44:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
You're joking, right? I'll just assume you guys are joking, because I don't have either of you guys figured as 'tards :p


Have you not looked at the FAQ on the AA site, then?

[q]

Q: Why are you doing the game?
A: … it is part of the Army's communications strategy…

The Army's game is an entertaining way for young adults to explore the Army and its adventures and opportunities as a virtual Soldier. As such, it is part of the Army's communications strategy designed to leverage the power of the Internetas a portal through which young adults can get a first hand look at what it is like to be a Soldier. The game introduces players to different Army schools, Army training, and life in the Army. Given the popularity of computer games and the ability of the Internet to deliver great content, a game was the perfect venue for highlighting different aspects of the Army. Firms such as Toyota have used games for this educational purpose with considerable success.
(Last Updated: 2003-08-21)

Q: Is this a recruiting tool?
A: … it provides young adults and their influencers with virtual insights about the Army…

The game is designed to provide young adults and their influencers with virtual insights into entry level Soldier training, training in units and Army operations so as to provide insights into what the Army is like. As in the past, the Army's success in attracting high-potential young adults is essential to building the world's premier land force. With the passage of time, elimination of the draft and reductions in the size of the Army have resulted in a marked decrease in the number of Americans who have served in the Army and from whom young adults can gain vicarious insights into the challenges and rewards of Soldiering and national service. Therefore, the game is designed to substitute virtual experiences for vicarious insights. It does this in an engaging format that takes advantage of young adults' broad use of the Internet for research and communication and their interest in games for entertainment and exploration.
(Last Updated: 2003-08-21)

Q: Should children 13+ be exposed to what the Army does?
A: …young adults can see how our training builds and prepares Soldiers to serve in units in defense of freedom.

In elementary school kids learn about the actions of the Continental Army that won our freedoms under George Washington and the Army's role in ending Hitler's oppression. Today they need to know that the Army is engaged around the world to defeat terrorist forces bent on the destruction of America and our freedoms. The game provides a virtual means to explore a variety of Soldier experiences in basic training, advanced training, and training missions in real world Army units, so that young adults can see how our training builds and prepares Soldiers to serve in units in defense of freedom.
(Last Updated: 2003-08-21) [/q]
(my emphasis)

It provides youths ('young adults'), with an entertaining way to play at being an American soldier; you'll notice that all the 'vicarious insights' are positive (adventures!  defend freedom!)

Plus the army readily admits it's a recruiting tool.  whilst he army has a right to recruit, I don't think any organisation should be allowed to launch a mass-marketing campaign aimed at those who are too young to give informed consent / legally work for that company.

(see also http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020902&s=hodes20020823)
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on January 14, 2005, 05:49:38 am
I'm not saying it's not aimed at recruiting youths, just that a) Retards who actually think a Video Game is enough to convince them to join the army deserve to be screwed over, and b) I still fail to see 'subtle mental suggestions.'
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2005, 05:50:36 am
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
I'm not saying it's not aimed at recruiting youths, just that a) Retards who actually think a Video Game is enough to convince them to join the army deserve to be screwed over, and b) I still fail to see 'subtle mental suggestions.'


That's why they're called 'subtle'.

EDIT; oh, and
[q]
According to a poll by I for I Research, 30% of young people who had a positive view of the military said that they had developed that view by playing the game. One result is appearing at the military academy at West Point where 19 per cent of 2003's freshman class claim they had played the game. [/q]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_army#Controversy
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on January 14, 2005, 05:59:36 am
Quote
19 per cent of 2003's freshman class claim they had played the game.


So? IIRC, the you could actually get a free copy of the game for joining up, so I fail to see how this accurately measures it's recruiting abilities.

And "Positive View" is a different thing altogether. I can have a positive view of Green Peace or Vegetarians, doesn't mean I'm gonna b like them.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: vyper on January 14, 2005, 06:06:28 am
Okay lets approach this from another angle.

Do you conceed that it is a recruitment tool?
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Deepblue on January 14, 2005, 12:41:22 pm
It is a recruitment tool albiet not a very effective one. The game is fun and free so I play it.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Flipside on January 14, 2005, 01:02:44 pm
The thing is, statistics may be misleading here. Just because a high percentage of people who have joined the Army lately have played AA, it doesn't actually follow that AA is what is causing them to join if you see what I mean?

However, I think the statement is bloody hilarious! It gives a whole new dimension to the term 'Flame', DS himself would be proud ;)
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Unknown Target on January 14, 2005, 01:09:36 pm
It's a recruitment tool, it was developed and released as a recruitment tool, but the thing itself is actually just a fun game. 99% of the kids (KIDS) who play it see it as a game, akin to Counter Strike. And the only reason people are going after it for "exposing children to the real army in a fun way" is cause it's sponsoed by the Army itself. Look at Counter Strike, Rainbow Six, all of that stuff. In some small way, they are all what the army does. Even thought that's not exactly true--it's true that AA:O does show a more realistic view--but that's because it's right from the source--if game devs had the same resources, they'd produce a game experience just as realistc.


EDIT: And it's not like playing the game mind-washes you into joining. Hell, it probably makes people want to join even LESS, with the amount of times you die in that game :D The Army says it's a recruitment tool, they use it as a recruitment tool, but the gamers in the world just say it's a really good game (or was a really good game). They don't look at it, play it and go "Oh, this is fun---I should suit up, join up, and go fight for the real thing!"
Title: Americas Army
Post by: aldo_14 on January 14, 2005, 05:58:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
It is a recruitment tool albiet not a very effective one. The game is fun and free so I play it.


If it's not effective, why are your tax dollars still being pumped into it?  The military isn't reknowned for it's altruism, after all..........
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Unknown Target on January 14, 2005, 06:49:20 pm
It's also not known for it's wise spending habits.
Title: Americas Army
Post by: übermetroid on January 14, 2005, 07:40:29 pm
It would be cool if there was a Marine Corps game...

*in game*
*snip - something about getting drunk and getting laid*

:D
Title: Americas Army
Post by: Tiara on January 14, 2005, 08:16:56 pm
Hehe, I want to see some ids join the army and thinking it's fun to gun down your teammates just because in the game you can do that too!!! :D

Seriously though, anyone who's convinced to join the army because of a GAME is just weak minded as hell and not a real contribution to the army anyway. You really don't want these geeks captured by the enemy sine he'll crack as soon as he sees the mustache on the enemy's commander twitch. :p