Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: an0n on January 15, 2005, 01:05:31 pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20050111/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_dc&printer
'They were torturing us as though it was theater for them,' he said, as the prosecution wound up its case against [Charles A. Graner] on assault, dereliction of duty and other charges... 'I was extremely emotional because (even) Saddam didn't do this to us.'
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I can't wait to hear what Graner has to say.
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Here's what he had to say ("http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000753452")
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I will not allow you to spin this, you twit. For those reading this thread that didn't look at the article, this is a rather poor attempt to make a blanket acusation on the American Military based on testimony from one of the trials associated with the Abu-Grahib atrocity. Make no mistake, that was an atrocity, no one is denying that. But I will not allow this kind of foolishness to go on while I'm around.
Abu-Grahib was wrong, you know it, I know it. However the actions of a few deviants cannot reflect on as diverse a body as the US military.
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Please. Don't believe it was the actions of a few grunts who decided they'd have some fun. They did it because it was accepted treatment at the jail. Because it was military policy even if not directly ordered.
To get information harsh methods are sometimes needed but you have to pay the price for those actions, not blame it on some mindless automatons.
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Harsh methods...you do know what the military defines as acceptable interrogation techniques don't you? Sleep depravation, the playing of loud music to disrupt concetration as well as other non-violent, but very effective methods for weakening the will so they won't be able to lie effectively. Harsh methods do not involve widespread humiliation of detainees.
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They did it because most untrained human beings become sadistic ****s when given this kind of authority of other people.
Simply put this IS the US Army's fault for putting these people in charge of the prison (and don't tell me the Army doesn't know about the psychology of war)
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Umm libby, the armys own report found abuse was widespread and ordered from the top down.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm
Its you who's spinning it you twat.
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Originally posted by Gank
Umm libby, the armys own report found abuse was widespread and ordered from the top down.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm
Its you who's spinning it you twat.
leave lib be. he's better off in his own little alternate reality. if only he could be quiet about it...
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Liberator, do you honestly believe that by some coincidence, those cases of torture which were reported account for 100% of all torture by US troops? Don't you think thats a bit unlikely? Don't you think that it is reasonable to expect that, given the limited scope of the investigation and natural willingness to hide one's crimes, the reported abuses account for only a small percentager of those that have occured and continue to occur inside US prisons?
Why do you think that military prisons are created in places like Diego Garcia and Jordan, where they are outside the reach of US law? Is that just a coincidence??
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Originally posted by Rictor
Liberator, do you honestly believe that by some coincidence, those cases of torture which were reported account for 100% of all torture by US troops?
I have to.
If I don't then the Army becomes a bunch of reprobates and cretins who aren't worthy of the responsibility we have placed with them.
I have to believe that the training, the unending hours of training, that those people go through weeds out 99.9% of the bad eggs or else the members of the military, and by extension their deeds, are worthless.
They arent' perfect, but I HAVE to believe that they are the absolute best that my country has to offer or what's the point.
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Well, you could always try to improve the army.
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Originally posted by Liberator
If I don't then the Army becomes a bunch of reprobates and cretins who aren't worthy of the responsibility we have placed with them.
If you close your eyes, the bad things don't go away. They just sneak up on you.
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So you have to believe in something that appears to be highly unlikely, because the alternative is too scary to face? Well, I can see where you're coming from, but I can't say I agree. The truth is that the Army is a far cry from the idealistic entity that some (maybe most?) Americans believe it to be.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/527479.html
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I'd said the point is the one many veteran are trying to make : see http://www.hackworth.com/ for exemple. As in, the training the Army currently use DON'T weed out the reprobats and cretins. That being said, I seriously doubt that you believing that the Army is not doing this will improve matter on the fields :p
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Anyone read the men who stare at goats? Has some rather interesting information on US military intelligence.
btw Hackworth was the one who originally broke the torture story,
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
If you close your eyes, the bad things don't go away. They just sneak up on you.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
-Aldous Huxley
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While I do not agree with everything Hackworth said/wrote, I find his site a very good source of non-bised information about the US Army. Won't hesitate to bash some people, but make known the good things the Army does too.
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The US army, like the US, is a mixed bag. It's the best out there, but it's far, far from perfect, and could be benefited greatly from some very simple reforms.
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If I don't then the Army becomes a bunch of reprobates and cretins who aren't worthy of the responsibility we have placed with them.
That is what an army is. I expect this kind of thing to happen no matter who's involved, because everybody is the same. Unless the American military was created from genetically engineered human prototypes, designed to conform perfectly with conventional moral standards, it is going to be responsible for atrocities. When you put people in that kind of situation, they are going to show you with beautiful predictability just how weak they are. (Or, if you prefer, just how overwhelming the circumstances can be.)
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errr......as bad as the US army is, I seriously, seriously doubt they'd be as bad as Saddam, or be anywhere near capable of inflicting the tortures he did.
That said, it's still an atrocity for sure.
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Originally posted by Ford Prefect
That is what an army is.
Well aren't we a little elitist piece of garbage.
Bear in mind that it is because of them that you can go out and **** your girlfriend or get blitzed or whatever the hell you do for fun up there in the marginally decent state of Massachusetts, because they are over there fighting and dying so that the terrorist don't come over and get all freaky. They deserve a little respect from you and they'll get it or I'll know the reason why.
BTW, massachewsits was at the top of the short list of states that lost population last year.
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Saddam droped Bio weapons in his own citys to see what would happen, While this thing is bad what they did, it still don't compare none to Saddam.
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Bear in mind that it is because of them that you can go out and **** your girlfriend or get blitzed or whatever the hell you do for fun up there in the marginally decent state of Massachusetts, because they are over there fighting and dying so that the terrorist don't come over and get all freaky. They deserve a little respect from you and they'll get it or I'll know the reason why.
Come now, you don't think that's just a tad bit recycled?
You needn't think my judgement begins and ends with the military. It's people I'm assessing, and the military, the last time I checked, is made up of people. When you put them under stress, they're going to start popping, and doing things that paint an ugly picture of primal human behavior. We can debate about which wars were legitimate and which weren't, but if you think for a moment that the United States military has any more righteousness than any other group of people, it is my humble opinion that you are under an illusion.
You are invited to insult Massachusetts to every extent of your heart's desire. If you haven't noticed, pride is not something upon which I place great value. Here, I'll help you: **** Massachusetts, it's ****ing cold up here.
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Originally posted by WeatherOp
Saddam droped Bio weapons in his own citys to see what would happen, While this thing is bad what they did, it still don't compare none to Saddam.
Actually, there is evidence that suggests it was the Iranians that gassed Halabja. And in either case, the Kurds were not, are not, and the way things are going never will be "Saddam's people". They were his enemies, and remained so until the day he was overthrown.
Which doesn't make it any better, but I'm getting so sick of people spouting prefabricated lines in order to justify their positions.
Lib: when an army invades and occupies a country, they loot, pillage and generally cause havok. This is the way its been for thousands of years, and don't think that the American army is somehow an exception. You said yourself that your opinion of the Army is based on faith. At some point, you will have to ackowledge that you can't defend an opinion forever when the available evidence contradicts it.
Even if I love Hitler and support the Nazis, I have to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened. Its not a matter of idealogy, its a matter of fact.
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I'm not denying that Abu-Grahib happened. I denying that the United States Army is composed of creeps and sadists who get their rocks off on humiliating people.
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It's called being human. I imagine, when you're stuck in a foreign country, knowing or watching people you know die, that you're going to get scared. And you'll probably have to get that fear out of you. So, when you've got a bunch of people who are the 'enemy' in a prison, what's wrong with taking it out on them? They're the enemy, after all, and it makes you feel better. Like a drug.
The purpose of the army is to kill other people's armies. We don't have fancy-pants force fields; if someone attacks anyone, it's kill-or-be-killed.
But murder is one of the worst crimes that society thinks a person can commit. Someone who respects other people and is open-minded makes a great member of society, but a poor soldier. Someone who cares far more about themself than they do other people at large makes a great soldier, but a poor member of society. Finding a balance between those two is hard.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Well aren't we a little elitist piece of garbage.
Bear in mind that it is because of them that you can go out and **** your girlfriend or get blitzed or whatever the hell you do for fun up there in the marginally decent state of Massachusetts, because they are over there fighting and dying so that the terrorist don't come over and get all freaky. They deserve a little respect from you and they'll get it or I'll know the reason why.
BTW, massachewsits was at the top of the short list of states that lost population last year.
Wov, personal attacks and appeals to emotion, fearmongering and stuff. That sure convinced me.
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I really can't be bothered to wait for this to go down the pan... and it really will. Shame you guys can't be more mature about your online discussions - but so be it.
Locked.