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Hosted Projects - Standalone => The Babylon Project => Topic started by: IPAndrews on January 17, 2005, 06:30:25 am

Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 17, 2005, 06:30:25 am
Well it seems the Raider Wars campaign is already getting a reputation as being rather difficult. I have to admit this is true. In fact it was somewhat intentional. I'd rather give a player a challenge than something they can stroll through with their eyes closed. Although I will not accept any responsibility for damage caused when throwing joysticks across the room in frustration. Anyway. I was wondering how long it took each of you to complete the campaign?

No spoilers please. Yes I know it doesn't have that much of a plot to spoil, but that's not the point ;7
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: bigglesworth on January 17, 2005, 12:15:44 pm
I kept getting wiped out on mission 1 and gave up.  It is too difficult for me.  I prefer a campaign whose difficulty steadily rises as the missions progress.  Maybe I'll pick it up again if someone writes a strategy guide with plenty of advice on how to beat it.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Fury on January 17, 2005, 12:18:33 pm
Three words: very easy difficulty.
The campaign is not hard, you just need to learn how to dogfight. Lower difficulty if you need to.

I can usually beat the campaign on hard so it's far from impossible. And I'm not even that good pilot.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Alphakiller on January 17, 2005, 01:39:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Three words: very easy difficulty.
The campaign is not hard, you just need to learn how to dogfight. Lower difficulty if you need to.


No, that's not it. The campaign relies too much on a gimmicky mission design in the first half; it gets better as it goes along.

For example, the "you have to kill all eight of these fighters before they torpedo a freighter" - or the "there are 2308 Zephyrs coming out of this jump gate, kill them all before they get to the shuttles you're protecting behind you" -- that's not really dogfighting, it's "hey let's see how fast you can kill things because you ONLY HAVE LIKE FIVE SECONDS OH JESUS." And God help you if you don't have ESP and you're not in _perfect_ position to start smoking them the INSTANT their IFF goes hostile.

My personal least favorite is the one where unless you kit out ALL your wingmen with 60mm pulse cannon (and why the hell would you think to do this without playing the mission) there is almost no way you can disable/destroy both the targets you have to disable/destroy - and you get maybe sixty, seventy seconds to take out the second from when it goes hostile, and chances are you're a good few kilometers away :p

In other words, it leads to far too much "play mission, fail because you have 0.07 seconds to react, repeat mission now that you know its trick and actually win." That's not good design.

There's a difference between making a mission challenging yet fun and just plain difficult. Far too many of the early Raider Wars ones fall into the latter category.

That said, it didn't take me that long. I'm no slouch when it comes to shootin' Zephyrs, so the only thing that really slowed me down was the heinously unfair bull**** :p


...


Now that I've railed on it for paragraphs on end, I do want to say I don't mean to be such a downer. I did like MOST of it. I liked almost all of it, and it was fun.

But the few things I didn't like I really didn't like, as you can see. They were really frustrating, not in the "man this is a challenge" way, but in the "this is stupid" way.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: bigglesworth on January 17, 2005, 01:54:56 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Three words: very easy difficulty.
The campaign is not hard, you just need to learn how to dogfight. Lower difficulty if you need to.

I can usually beat the campaign on hard so it's far from impossible. And I'm not even that good pilot.


Your opinion is in the minority.  I played on medium difficulty.  If I wanted hard I would have set it on hard.  Medium difficulty should be a medium challenge.  Perhaps this campaign could be changed to mitigate the required skill level in the future.

Or, here's an idea: each time you lose a mission, give 1 or 2 specific strategy tips on how to approach the mission next time.  As in, assign alpha wing to do blah blah while you attack blah blah, etc.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Admiral Nelson on January 17, 2005, 02:40:25 pm
I think the issue I have so far is that the missions feel like the kind of 'puzzle' missions as the old X-Wing games have. In order to beat them, you MUST have foreknowledge of what will happen and order your wingmen or change your course in ways you would not do unless you know what is coming.

Spoiler:


I imagine Alphakiller was thinking of Slipping the Noose in his comments about the wingman loadout etc... I agree entirely. There is no way to accomplish this mission unless you behave abnormally. E.g. once the PSI Corps fighters attack, just motor towards the Gibraltar. You have to disable it yourself as your wingmen to an extremely poor job themselves. Meanwhile order, Delta wing to close the GOD sat. If you don't it absolutely instantaneously, you have no chance. There isn't even any dogfighting to do really. Its just a test of if you can hit the right commands at the right second. Whether you are Chuck Yeager or Grandma Moses flying the fighter doesn't matter... :)

The same is true of the PSI Corps shuttle mission, where you have to know exactly which shuttle has the bomb to have any chance of stopping it. I beat this one by scanning all the craft in advance. Once the 'bomb' threat came across, the shuttle instantly turned red and was destroyed by the cruiser.

Likewise again, the 'stop the Narn from killing the Centauri mission.' You have to know to tell your wingmen to protect the centauri ship (which is an EA frieghter, for some reason) or you can't stop the Narn from blowing it. No dogfighting here either, really, since the Narn fighters just fly in a straight line at max speed towards their target.



Hence, I think, the 'gimmick' complaint is justified. Not to bash this campaign, as it has great atmosphere and style, but I agree that this is not ideal mission design.  A good test is (IMO), can a skilled pilot beat the mission THE FIRST TIME through, if he is both clever and a good dogfighter.

Thanks for listening.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 17, 2005, 03:24:58 pm
For the record I personally don't think the campaign is that difficult. I can complete most of the missions fairly easily. The only one that causes me real grief is Showdown at the Pass, but even that isn't impossible by any means. Now that aside the is a lot of perfectly valid stuff being said in the comments above. Yes it is quite a gimmicky campaign but then an EA vs Raider campaign that relied on basic dogfight missions wouldn't be that interesting would it? Hence a good few of the missions definitely fall into the catagory of "puzzle" missions just as Admiral Nelson described. A certain degree of skill is required but equally important is intelligence in figuring out the best way to approach the mission. You are going to fail these missions the first time unless you are extremely lucky and very smart. It's something different. If it ain't  your bag then that's a shame. Go set up your own campaign :). Actually I'm hoping people will do that anyway.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: bigglesworth on January 17, 2005, 04:52:45 pm
How do I stop the Venzen ship from being destroyed in the Wheel turns mission?  This is getting frustrating (even with difficulty on very easy setting).  Hopefully this campaign gets more fun as the missions progress.  This mission is not fair.  The Venzen ship blows up too quickly to be saved, even with all my wings assigned to protect it.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Alphakiller on January 17, 2005, 06:05:21 pm
Quote
Originally posted by IPAndrews
FIt's something different.  


Yeah, it's more like Starlancer.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 17, 2005, 06:29:57 pm
Never, unless I can resolve the issue I'm currently having with it...
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 17, 2005, 11:56:32 pm
Ive past the hyperspace mission where you mothership goes down. The next "incoming transmission" mission exits to desktop when i press continue.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Fury on January 18, 2005, 01:51:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Do what Alphakiller did and use a debug build, for a reason only devil knows it worked.

http://fs2source.warpcore.org/exes/fs2_open_3_6_5_debug.exe
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 18, 2005, 05:35:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by bigglesworth
How do I stop the Venzen ship from being destroyed in the Wheel turns mission?


The easiest way is to persuade the Narn to surrender by destroying one of their Skylarks. Since they're a bigger easier to hit target. You can do it by destroying the Frazis by tailing them and using fighter suppression missiles, but that's a more difficult way of completing the mission.

Quote
Originally posted by bigglesworth Hopefully this campaign gets more fun as the missions progress. [/B]


It doesn't get any easier if that's what you mean. Sorry bud. :p
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 18, 2005, 05:37:38 am
This build will allow you to continue playing the campaign after the hyperspace mission.

http://fs2source.warpcore.org/exes/fs2_open_3_6_5_debug.exe
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Roanoke on January 18, 2005, 06:15:29 am
I was never able to do STC :nervous: :D
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 18, 2005, 06:31:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Roanoke
I was never able to do STC :nervous: :D


I did some last minute improvements to it before release. It's quite a bit easier now, and more fun. I doubt anyone will get far enough in the campaign to ever see it though :devil:
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 18, 2005, 08:18:43 am
Completed in roughly four hours of play time. The regular build doesn't like As The Wheel turns, the debug doesn't like the mission right after that. Go figure.

Oh, and I must commend you. Flying the Thunderbolt was a real step up from flying the Aurora and Badger, as it should be. It wasn't like that for R2.

Spoiler:
But shouldn't the surface of Shattered Star have been white, not brown?
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 18, 2005, 11:54:12 am
Make your missions objectives more specific. Saying "Nullify" doesnt mean squat, do you mean disable or destroy? And how the hell do you disable something's guns (apart from hitting every single cannon). when destroying the weapons subsystem does nothing.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: rynadrk on January 18, 2005, 01:02:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Burns
Make your missions objectives more specific. Saying "Nullify" doesnt mean squat, do you mean disable or destroy? And how the hell do you disable something's guns (apart from hitting every single cannon). when destroying the weapons subsystem does nothing.

It means just that.  Disable the engines or destroy all the turrets or even destroy the ship.  If you have the proper weapon you can disable and disarm a ship while barely hurting it.  Nullify  I suppose leaves you with the choice of what you want to do.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 18, 2005, 02:16:23 pm
So whats the best way to do it in THAT particular mission?
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Gloriano on January 18, 2005, 02:59:44 pm
Well i finished it and I think it was little campaign
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: rynadrk on January 18, 2005, 03:41:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Burns
So whats the best way to do it in THAT particular mission?

I prefer to load my squad with subsystem destroying weapons.  That way you can disable/disarm while everyone else does the mopping up.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 18, 2005, 04:22:35 pm
There are Badger StarFuries available in that mission. Make use of them. Six guns instead of two is a godsend.

While I noted a few spelling oddities...Overall, I have to say I was impressed with the campaign, and enjoyed playing it once I worked out the CTD weirdnesses.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 18, 2005, 05:50:17 pm
Well Ill be damned. I completely forgot about changing ships and weapons:rolleyes:
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 18, 2005, 11:07:08 pm
Ok, this is bull****. I order alpha wing to go after gibraltar while i go for the GOD. So I destroy the god and somehow everyone turns on me and I fail the mission. Whoopidi ****in doo...
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Fury on January 18, 2005, 11:28:44 pm
How about taking care of GOD with Alpha and Delta (or was it Beta) once the GOD turns hostile and let Gibraltal be?

Just destroy GOD's main beam cannon first, then destroy it. If the Gibraltal is still alive, go take care of it.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 19, 2005, 03:46:15 am
Keep trying Burns. You'll figure it out eventually - probably.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: MikhailM on January 19, 2005, 09:53:25 am
No wonder that mission seemed so hard... I only discovered the availability of Badgers and different guns a couple of missions later.

Anyway, I guess it took me around 6-7 hours to complete the campaign. Contrary to what everyone else is saying, I didn't find it all that hard, except for that mission with the G.O.D. and the one with the long convoy of freighters. (On that one, the recommendation text didn't work well for me, so I tried something different and it worked :) ).
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 19, 2005, 03:46:18 pm
Last time, I blew up the main cannon (with a Badger), then its missile launchers, then i finished it off, but somehow my wingmen and everybody turned on me and it was over...
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: mr. Duck on January 19, 2005, 04:53:59 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Burns
Last time, I blew up the main cannon (with a Badger), then its missile launchers, then i finished it off, but somehow my wingmen and everybody turned on me and it was over...

You didn't happen to blow it up when it was still friendly now did you?

btw, I actually haven't got a clear idea as for how long I did to finish the campaign. I must say that most of the mission reminded me of the missions in starlancer (protect this, kill this all within a limited time). Currently my favorite mission is the one where you have to destroy the ground base. Man that rocks! :D
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: yohoob on January 19, 2005, 04:54:02 pm
any ideas on how stop the raiders fron destroying the psi cor shuttle afther they brake out of the freighter.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: PSI-KILLER on January 19, 2005, 08:55:34 pm
AMAZING CAMPAIGN.   I really did not notice any bugs.  smooth as silk.  I re installed it after upgrading memory and it played completly different.    The planetoid mission was amazing!!!!  The last one was crazy, you think EA could afford a few more ships!!!!
I tried using EAX sound but it still does not seem to work.   Creative Diag shows it is working though,, very minor.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 19, 2005, 09:19:32 pm
Yes finally got past that GOD mission and Im on that planetoid mission... nice touch. Yet for some reason my guys arent attacking the base.. any suggestions?
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: rynadrk on January 19, 2005, 09:21:29 pm
Try a Badger and use the capship weapons on it.

EDIT: And about the wingmen not attacking it.  When I did it I sent them off to shoot the fighters for a bit.  They flew right overhead the base and then I told them to form on my wing when I went in to attack.  At least the guns weren't just shooting at me.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Burns on January 19, 2005, 10:26:54 pm
Haha, finally done. Some suggestions: Briefings: FS2 missions recommended the best ship for the mission: I suggest RW does the same. Hopefully, the addition of voices will help in setting the atmosphere. Furthermore, the dream mission (ie, clicking the commit button crash) needs to be adressed properly. Finally, allow some margin of error, that is for example like in the GOD mission: while there is a hint that something's not right with the platform it shouldnt have to confuse the player since the order to take down the Gibraltar and the order to take out GOD come in nearly simultaniously. A player cant be everyone at once;) . Apart from that, I enjoyed the campaign. Good work, just fix up some things here and there and youve got a damn good campaign. In any case Im looking forward to revisiting it when voice work is done for it. Btw, it would be awesome to see a Tales of the Janus work fully with R3.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 20, 2005, 02:07:41 am
Quote
Originally posted by Burns
Yet for some reason my guys arent attacking the base.. any suggestions?


They won't attack whilst being shot in the ass by enemy fighter cover
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Roki on January 20, 2005, 02:34:01 am
I like the campaign the diffculty was acaully pretty good although it does need to be balanced a little more i.e say 15 secounds more with the god sat before it opens fire little things like that to make it a little more easy for some people other than that its a good campagin and i liked it
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Azrael15 on January 20, 2005, 03:55:57 am
I found it reasonably hard. I loved the ground attack mission, I took out the base single-handadly. Heh.

And GOD Sats are powerful! It wastes the Orion in two shots!
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: IPAndrews on January 20, 2005, 04:59:55 am
Quote
Originally posted by yohoob
any ideas on how stop the raiders fron destroying the psi cor shuttle afther they brake out of the freighter.


Put yourself behind the enemy fighters as they leave the freighter and head for the shuttle. Stick as many fighter suppression missiles as you can into the middle of them.
Title: How long to complete Raider Wars?
Post by: Fury on January 20, 2005, 05:13:43 am
I didn't even fight against the fighters, I disabled the freighter and let wingmen take care of Raider fighters.