Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on January 19, 2005, 05:50:07 pm
-
http://in.news.yahoo.com/050116/139/2j1rp.html
-
They are free to give aid to whomever they please. That said, it doesn't make what they did right in anyway shape or form. In the end, they are true hipocrates. :(
-
Those people do not deserve the name missionary.
-
About to be ashamed to be a Catholic, but I'll just hope it wasn't more widespread....bastards...
-
Oh my dear God. I agree entirely with what Steak said.
-
...what in the...
They don't even deserve the name CHRISTIAN.
-
Said there were nuns...they should be excommunicated...actually, for being nuns, distraught.
-
This is why I don't follow organized religion.
****ing Hypocrites
-
I'm torn between feeling "It's their food, they can choose to give or not give it to whoever they want", and disgust at how they tried to force their religion on the people.
"Power corrupts."
-
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I'm torn between feeling "It's their food, they can choose to give or not give it to whoever they want", and disgust at how they tried to force their religion on the people.
"Power corrupts."
Well...they must not have confidence that their religion is any good if they have to bribe people to convert...:p
-
Originally posted by Setekh
Those people do not deserve the name missionary.
I Agree
-
That is pathetic, I thought the Catholic Church had grown beyond trying to enforce membership centuries ago. o'course when you think about it, Catholics are the only Christian religion to blame the Jews as a race for the death of Christ. So, I guess in that context, this is right in line. Doesn't make it right though. They should be ashamed and kicked out of everything in the most shameful and showiest way possible.
-
*is aghast*
However, I doubt this represents the majority of missionaries in general (all religions).
-
You know, Lib, not all Catholics blame the entire religion of Judaism for the death of Christ. In fact, it is a very small minority, which would be know as "idiots".
And aren't nuns supposed to take a vow of charity or something?
-
Originally posted by Liberator
That is pathetic, I thought the Catholic Church had grown beyond trying to enforce membership centuries ago. o'course when you think about it, Catholics are the only Christian religion to blame the Jews as a race for the death of Christ. So, I guess in that context, this is right in line. Doesn't make it right though. They should be ashamed and kicked out of everything in the most shameful and showiest way possible.
If you think all Catholics behave like this, then I feel sorry for you...:rolleyes: And if "they" refers to these "missionaries", then I agree with you. I'm just hoping "they" doesn't refer to the Church in general.
EDIT: actually, Grey Wolf says it nicely as well.:p
-
'They' does refer to the nuns.
There are whole sects of Catholocism(primarily those that don't adhere to Vatican 2) that pin Christ's death on the Jews as a whole. Of course, I don't exactly get the praying to the Holy Mother thing too. I mean, yes, she above all other women was blessed to be the mother of Christ, but she was still a mortal woman with all the foibles that insinuates and, while deserving of honor, is not prayer worthy. Prayers should be directed wholy and singly toward God.
I would love for a Catholic to give us a quick lesson in their faith.
-
They're free to do as they like. Personally, I think they're bastards, but its their choice I guess.
-
You know, I never really understood what's so inaccurate about blaming the Jews for the crucifixion of Yeshua (aka Jesus), Himself a Jew. It's an internal matter, for pete's sake. The rabble even said - and I paraphrase - "May his blood be upon our heads."
That said, Yeshua said that "No man takes My life from Me; I lay it down of My own will."
So, those who purport to follow Him shouldn't "blame" anyone, unless they blame the whole of a creation turned sinful. And those who don't believe in Him - what's it matter to them, anyway?
So that's why I never understood that whole blame game. :rolleyes:
-
Not to mention everyone's dead and buried by now. :rolleyes:
-
just another one of many atrocities commited by those who deem themselves "rightious"
-
what i don't get though, is why only the bad stuff people do that crops up in the news, especially Christians (well maybe i notice more because i happen to be one). there are heaps of really nice Christians around who do really nice things for everyone and yet they don't get _any_ mention at all. not fair.
-
Originally posted by icespeed
what i don't get though, is why only the bad stuff people do that crops up in the news, especially Christians (well maybe i notice more because i happen to be one). there are heaps of really nice Christians around who do really nice things for everyone and yet they don't get _any_ mention at all. not fair.
Because lots of people do lots of nice things every day, so we get used to it. Whereas when one person or group of people do something bad - regardless of who they are or what they believe - it's a bit more unusual and thus more newsworthy.
And because the church - in western society - is supposed to be providing moral guidance etc etc (or they say that's their purpose), then immoral stuff done by them or in their name becomes even more noteworthy.
I think it's better that society takes peoples good nature rather than their bad nature for granted - even if it makes the news a bit more depressing.
Oh, and these 'missionaries' == ******s.
-
No news is good news....
-
I don't profess to know what were in those nun's minds.....they may have meant well and all. (And no, I am not catholic...so I'm not making excuses) However, using aid during a disaster as a bargaining chip to coerce people into converting is just wrong. Even if they agreed....it would be just to get the necessities they needed--which doesn't lend to any kind of long-term commitment in the spiritual sense of the word. Another example of there being nothing wrong with Christianity....except the "Christians" that give it a bad name. :wtf:
-
Originally posted by icespeed
what i don't get though, is why only the bad stuff people do that crops up in the news, especially Christians (well maybe i notice more because i happen to be one). there are heaps of really nice Christians around who do really nice things for everyone and yet they don't get _any_ mention at all. not fair.
There is a severe bias in the media against religion in general, Christianity has a special place in their intolerance however.
-
Perhaps its because it's larger than any of the other religion, and hence has a larger number of idiots?
-
These nuns are not representative of Catholicism; in fact, they're not representative of any form of Christianity. I'm appalled at their lack of compassion. This type of missionary action is the exact opposite of what is promoted by the Catholic Church. This might have been accepted in the year 1000, but not by any means in the year 2005.
Liberator, these "sects" of Catholicism that blame the Jewish people as a whole are an insignificant minority. Yes, it is true that the Jewish chief priests and scribes were the ones who called for Christ's death, but does that make the entire Jewish race guilty? Of course not. And, if you are a Christian, you have to realize that Christ had to die to grant salvation, so "blaming" anyone for something that had to happen is pretty absurd in and of itself.
I understand your confusion about the Catholic teaching regarding Mary; it's something a lot of non-Catholics don't really understand. Catholics don't actually "pray" to Mary or any of the saints. Instead, we ask for them to intercede for us with God. You see, a saint is someone who lived a life of virtue and holiness, and who earned the reward of heaven as a result of this. Those of us here on Earth ask for the saints' prayers and intercessions. This is where you get the idea of patron saints; certain saints are associated with certain activities, professions, countries, or diseases, so asking one of them for their intercession when undergoing a particular problem is almost like having someone there to help you through a difficult time.
Regarding Mary, the Catholic Church doesn't treat her as a "mere" mortal woman. She is the Mother of God, called the "Theokotos" in the Orthodox Church. According to two important Catholic traditions about Mary, those of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, Mary was conceived without the original sin that stains the rest of humanity as recognition of her future role as the bearer of the Son of God, and at the end of her life, she was assumed body and soul into heaven, a symbol of our own eventual reunions of body and soul at the end of time. Also, as exemplified by Christ giving Mary into John's care as he hung on the cross to be his mother, Mary is a mother to all of humanity. Seen through this light, asking for her intercession and prayer is a very powerful thing indeed.
Please note: I'm not trying to prostelyze here; I'm simply informing Liberator and others about Catholic doctrines and teachings that they might be unfamiliar with. I also want to re-emphasize that the actions of those nuns are in absolutely no way representative of the actions of Catholic missionaries or of Church doctrine; in fact, they are going against important principles of both.
-
Originally posted by Mongoose
You see, a saint is someone who lived a life of virtue and holiness, and who earned the reward of heaven as a result of this.
Umm... works-based salvation? :wtf:
-
Exactly that...
But those are the people that are more "saved" than the others ;)
-
Originally posted by Goober5000
Umm... works-based salvation? :wtf:
Well, yeah. That's how the Catholic system works. Why do you think us Lutherans and other Protestants split off? :D (First one to make a 'Luther wanted luvs' gets a free kick in the ***)
But, in all seriousness, I'm utterly furious with the way these people mistreated these already-victims. I'm not a Catholic, but I sure as hell know that no Christian demonination encourages or even tolerates this kind of behavior.
what i don't get though, is why only the bad stuff people do that crops up in the news, especially Christians (well maybe i notice more because i happen to be one). there are heaps of really nice Christians around who do really nice things for everyone and yet they don't get _any_ mention at all. not fair.
That's the way the media works. Bad news sells. Good news (i.e. Christians doing good works, Iraqi citizens supporting the US) don't make headlines. Why? It's boring.
As for religious affiliation, I was born as non-affiliated, then later became a Lutheran. During this I had been to a Catholic private school, and I did notice all of the differences that Mongoose has stated in his post, especially the use of the saints as intercedents and basing our salvation on human works.
-
I was born catholic then i grew disaffected.
Now i'm agnostic at best.
-
WTF?
Holmes???
-
Admins, it's Zarax here the accounts got mixed somehow...
Can you do something about it?
-
Take it up in the request thread. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,28414.0.html)
-
Originally posted by Mongoose
These nuns are not representative of Catholicism; in fact, they're not representative of any form of Christianity. I'm appalled at their lack of compassion. This type of missionary action is the exact opposite of what is promoted by the Catholic Church. This might have been accepted in the year 1000, but not by any means in the year 2005.
Really? I see very little difference between this and the teachings of the catholic church in Africa that condoms are only 10% effective against AIDS and therefore aren't worth bothering with. The orders to do that came straight from the vatican.
This is just the same kind of indifference to human suffering on a more immediate timescale.
-
You have to remember that the Vatican is approximately 30-400 years behind current times, depending on the issue. The only forgave Galileo a few years back, and last year they just noticed the feminist movement..
-
Same with any beuracracy.
-
cristianity (as with prettymuch all religions) have so many subsects. this leads me to believe that they still havent got there story right. the big argument over how best to define truth has let humanity to great atrocities. in reality truth only applies in logic when compairing very simple very abstract statements 'left is the opisite of right' for example. its like an infinite loop in our programming, it seems to do nothing but eat up peoples resources. it is not possible to convert every person on earth to one religion because there is more bull**** out there than this so called 'truth'. convert to nihilisim philosophy, that way you dont waste so much time trying to figure everything out. confucus said something about not trying to figure out the spiritul realm. this world is what matters now, worry about the spiritual realm when and if you get there.
its like the great political sine wave theory i made up, after a great number of years of libral or conservitive excess, the people tend to get fed up and shoot for the other side, repeat indefinitely. middle ground is the best place to be, in all sence thst is where we aim for but always miss. of course this is on the grand scale so it doesnt always apply to the individual level. this applies to you multiaxis people as well, just imagine 2 (or more) intersecting sine waves :D
ii say we should nuke the vatican. maybe we shoulds use the gay bomb, but i dont think anyone would notice the difference. the vatican is pretty small we could probibly get away with using napalm in large quantities.
-
Originally posted by Mongoose
I understand your confusion about the Catholic teaching regarding Mary; it's something a lot of non-Catholics don't really understand. Catholics don't actually "pray" to Mary or any of the saints. Instead, we ask for them to intercede for us with God. You see, a saint is someone who lived a life of virtue and holiness, and who earned the reward of heaven as a result of this. Those of us here on Earth ask for the saints' prayers and intercessions. This is where you get the idea of patron saints; certain saints are associated with certain activities, professions, countries, or diseases, so asking one of them for their intercession when undergoing a particular problem is almost like having someone there to help you through a difficult time.
Regarding Mary, the Catholic Church doesn't treat her as a "mere" mortal woman. She is the Mother of God, called the "Theokotos" in the Orthodox Church. According to two important Catholic traditions about Mary, those of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, Mary was conceived without the original sin that stains the rest of humanity as recognition of her future role as the bearer of the Son of God, and at the end of her life, she was assumed body and soul into heaven, a symbol of our own eventual reunions of body and soul at the end of time. Also, as exemplified by Christ giving Mary into John's care as he hung on the cross to be his mother, Mary is a mother to all of humanity. Seen through this light, asking for her intercession and prayer is a very powerful thing indeed.
The main problems I see with this is that it's not only un-biblical (it is Jesus who is our High Priest, and who intercedes for us before God day and night, not some "saint"), but it's anti-biblical as well (praying to the dead? Let's just have a seance and get it over with!). Jesus taught us specifically how to pray: "Our Father who art in heaven...". Not "Oh, Holy Spirit, we welcome you...", nor "Blessed (long-dead) Mother, be the wall seperating me from communing with God...". Simply "Our Father...".
Yes, Mary/Miriam was special. But she was special the same way the Jewish people were "special". They were both special because they were chosen - they were not chosen because they were special.
{/rant} :D
-
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
And aren't nuns supposed to take a vow of charity or something?
Chastity, not charity.
-
Wait, it was a vow of poverty that I was thinking about, which means they wouldn't actually own the food in the first place...
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
{/rant} :D
Yeah... what he said.
-
I don't want to start a war here, but:
Originally posted by Mongoose
Regarding Mary, the Catholic Church doesn't treat her as a "mere" mortal woman. She is the Mother of God, called the "Theokotos" in the Orthodox Church. According to two important Catholic traditions about Mary, those of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, Mary was conceived without the original sin that stains the rest of humanity as recognition of her future role as the bearer of the Son of God
I hate to sound like Kazan, but that is a Fallacy. Christ was 100% God but he was also 100 percent Man. The former goes without saying, but for the latter to be true his earthly parent would have to be fully human, a state that includes the Original Sin. To say that Mary was without the taint of the Original Sin is to say she wasn't fully Human and therefore the sacrifice of her Son was without meaning.
and at the end of her lifeIt's been a while, but I don't think my Bible deals too closely with Mary's death., she was assumed body and soul into heaven, a symbol I've always felt that this was a mild form of idolatry of our own eventual reunions of body and soul at the end of time. Also, as exemplified by Christ giving Mary into John's care as he hung on the cross to be his mother, Mary is a mother to all of humanity.umm, no. She was a simple girl from a small town.
We all agree that Chist's sacrifice on the Cross is the only way for us Gentiles to enter Heaven.
Originally posted by Goober
umm...works based salvation?
You can't work you're way into Heaven or why did Christ die?
-
The reason Christ died was precisely because we can't work our way into heaven. So the theology that Mongoose described
Originally posted by Mongoose
You see, a saint is someone who lived a life of virtue and holiness, and who earned the reward of heaven as a result of this.
is inconsistent with Christianity.
-
And it all relies on believing the bible to be completely true, which is highly unlikely due to the centuries of corruption and self-serving interpretations.
-
The bastards don't deserve the name human. Put them on a desert island with no supplies and then send some hindus with some food in a boat to sail near the island, and let the Hindus eat the food and throw their leftovers away.
-
Jesus was a jew now? When that happen?
-
Well, Gank, what religion were his parents?
On a side note, this thread leads me to fear where it may end up going...
-
My parents were raised Catholic and Prodestant, I am neither. I would have thought Jesus was a christian :rolleyes:
-
As he didn't really worship himself, that wouldn't quite make sense...
-
Saying hes jewish doesnt either, considering the jews persecuted him for being a heretic. The only basis for saying hes jewish is the fact that hes born in judea, which would make the 2-3 million palestinians who were born there also jewish, and I dont see anyone arguing that.
-
No...you see, he wasn't persecuted until he began his ministry. He was racially a Hebrew, and his parents raised him Jewish. He went to temple on a regular basis, there is even an aside where he is seen debating the finer point of theology with some rather surprised priests at the age of 12. Christianity developed because the Jewish leadership of the time would not accept Jesus followers and the Romans didn't really like them all that much either until Constantine.
-
Originally posted by Gank
Saying hes jewish doesnt either, considering the jews persecuted him for being a heretic. The only basis for saying hes jewish is the fact that hes born in judea, which would make the 2-3 million palestinians who were born there also jewish, and I dont see anyone arguing that.
Jesus was a Jew. Not only was he a descendant of King David (a pretty famous Jew)....but he was also called Rabi (teacher) and taught in the syngogs and temple, and taught with authority. No Gentile would have been allowed to do that. The Bible clearly states that Salvation (Jesus) was sent "First for the Jew (his own people)....then for the Gentile". He kept the Jewish ways...including attending synogog every day...as well as Jewish holidays. The Last Supper.... was when he and his disciples observing the traditional Passover Meal--strictly a Jewish holiday.
The word Christian was coined for those who followed his teachings.
-
I can't help but feel dissapointed no-one has made a joke using the phrase 'missionary position' yet.....
-
Jesus being God and Jesus being a jew are mutally exclusive. Judaism does not accept him as being the son of god therefore if he was religiously jewish, he cannot be the son of god therefore christianity is a crock of ****e.
-
They should be forced to go into the missionsary position with a dog.
Happy now aldo?
-
Jesus cannot be christian or jewish from a teological point of view as he cannot worship himself so... :p
-
Obviously enough, therefore the arguement that hes Jewish could only be based on the fact that hes born in Judea. For a christian anyways. Those who do not prescribe to their beliefs could argue that he is on a number of levels, theological, geographical and ancestral, though these arguments dont neccessarily hold up.
-
:rolleyes:
Whatever....
Does not change the fact he was raised Jewish, or that he lived a Jewish lifestyle...
Is Jesus a Jew now? well......I don't think Jesus or God the Father considers themselves to be a part of any donomination or religion
-
It does not change the fact that he is god (from a christian point of view of course).
-
Originally posted by Sapphire
Is Jesus a Jew now? well......I don't think Jesus or God the Father considers themselves to be a part of any donomination or religion
Therefore he isnt Jewish? :rolleyes: Time has nothing to do with it. He was then as he is now.
-
Originally posted by Gank
Obviously enough, therefore the arguement that hes Jewish could only be based on the fact that hes born in Judea.
I'm sorry but your argument is flawed. Being born in Judea, no more makes you a Jew than being born in Rome makes you a Roman Catholic...
-
You are arguing against the same thing, yet you are arguing each other...
Now I've seen everything... :blah:
-
Originally posted by Sapphire
I'm sorry but your argument is flawed. Being born in Judea, no more makes you a Jew than being born in Rome makes you a Roman Catholic...
umm, I believe I pointed that out when I refered to the millions of palestinians who were born in judea :rolleyes:
-
No, he says my argument is based on Jesus being born in Judea. I said nothing of the sort. I was pointing out that being born there has nothing to do with it....
Yes or no? Were Gentiles allowed to teach their paganism in the temples and synogogs? If the answer is no.....then how is it that Jesus taught there? Answer: because he was of the Jewish faith.
-
Originally posted by Gank
Saying hes jewish doesnt either, considering the jews persecuted him for being a heretic. The only basis for saying hes jewish is the fact that hes born in judea, which would make the 2-3 million palestinians who were born there also jewish, and I dont see anyone arguing that.
Obviously enough, therefore the arguement that hes Jewish could only be based on the fact that hes born in Judea.
@Sapphire, he is saying such a thing is a poor argument, and you agree with him by.... disagreeing. :confused:
EDIT:
This is getting confusing :p
-
No, I was pointing out the only possible way you could halfway convincingly argue that he was a jew as a christian was by taking that line. Due to the incompatabilitys between Judaism and Christianity on the issue of jesus you cant claim he is jewish as it would be denying your own faith.
-
Perhaps before you continue you should speak to a Messianic Jew???
-
Ah, the group also known as "Christians who dont want to get kicked out of Israel" They arent Jews, theyre Christians, despite whatever they call themselves. Perhaps you'd better go look up the word Christian?
besides we're talking about mainstream Judaism here, not the beliefs of a couple of hundred thousand.
-
Perhaps you should. Christians, who subscribe to believing in Christ, also have to subscribe to the roots of Judaism (See Old Testament...its Jewish writings)
-
:wtf: Do you even know what you're talking about? Christianity is an offshot of Judaism which claims Jesus was god. There are no other significent differences. Those who believe Jesus was god are christians, those who believe he was not arent. Judaism says he is not, therefore if you believe he is God you cannot be of the Judaic faith. You can call yourself the hindu-buddist alliance for Jesus if you like, you're still a ****** christian.
-
You didn't answer my question way up there^^
Yes or no? Were Gentiles allowed to teach their paganism in the temples and synogogs? If the answer is no.....then how is it that Jesus taught there? Answer: because he was of the Jewish faith.
Enough said.
If you want to continue this line of argument, please read the Bible first.
-
dbl pst
-
So you consider god to be jewish?
Interesting... :drevil:
-
Umm what the ****?
John 11:
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples
I dont think its me who should read the bible :rolleyes:
-
Keep reading... where the people were wondering if Jesus was going to return for the Passover. Why would Jesus come to partake of Passover....the celebration of the deliverance of the Jews from Egypt....unless he was a Jew?
-
This is like watching lepers wrestle.
-
Everything you need to know in life you can learn from South Park...
Thanks to them I learn that the Jews killed Jesus, and that Mel Gibson is #%$ing INSANE! :D Just kidding!
Didn't Chris Rock say Jesus was black (Which I can totally believe as Jesus came from South Central Galilee)(SP?) The Romans were lucky we has into that peace love thing, otherwise he would have put a cap in their azz...
As for these evangeliests (cause they sure as hell are NOT missionaries) if any of them are female, young and hot I would gladly teach them the "Missionary Position" (there is that better Aldo?)
U know... When I first discovered the joys of self pleasure, I was in bible school and instead of making shadow boxes to scripture I was thinking about bending sister Sarah over the alter and make her pray like that. I even had a good line, if a priest came up and asked , "what in the name of God are you doing?!?" I would say, "Missionary work father, praise be to GOD!" ;) (Not your typical youngster was I?)...
Regardless from that point on I got a thing for young nuns... (OOO Sally Fields was sooo hot then)...
-
Originally posted by Sapphire
Keep reading... where the people were wondering if Jesus was going to return for the Passover. Why would Jesus come to partake of Passover....the celebration of the deliverance of the Jews from Egypt....unless he was a Jew?
Theres no point in keeping reading, it refutes your point that the jews let jesus preach :rolleyes: And how can you still argue hes a jew when you've already said hes not?????????????
Getter, youre one filthy ****er :yes:
-
I've never understood guys with a thing for nuns. The get up just does nothing for me. Nurses and french maids are where it's really at :D
-
Originally posted by kietotheworld
They should be forced to go into the missionsary position with a dog.
Happy now aldo?
No. I clearly said joke.
Frankly, I find your lack of double-entendres profoundly disappointing.
-
Originally posted by Getter Robo G
weird stuff
:wtf:
-
Originally posted by Gank
Theres no point in keeping reading, it refutes your point that the jews let jesus preach :rolleyes: And how can you still argue hes a jew when you've already said hes not?????????????
1. John 18:20 if you dare read it. >> Refutes your claim that they didn't let him preach. yes, they stopped him when he was becoming so popular.....but he had been teaching. And by Jewish law....he had to be Jewish in order to teach in the temple.
2. Show me where I said he wasn't a Jew... I said that being born in Judea wasn't what made him a Jew. Show me...I implore you.
3. You've ignored the evidence and reasons that I have given....it would be a waste of time for me to bring up the rest. You've already made up your mind, I won't confuse you with facts.
Now enough of this foolishness out of respect for those that are tired of it...
Vyper: even us lepers need some luv'n
:)
-
ok anything will support your arguement if you take it out of context.
here's the deal, let me see if i explain this.
Christ taught in the temple, by law he had to be of jewish faith for that to happen.
Christ began to be proclaimed as the messiah, who was fortold in the olod testament. Yes...Jews fortold his coming. So what happened when he proclaimed this too loudly? He was argued with. What happened then? People began to believe in him. then, he was no longer allowed to teach in the temple. So he went elsewhere. Then they decided to kill him. Now the people who believed that he was not the son of God, but adhered to the old faith, as taught in the old testament, they are jewish. Those who believed him to be the son of God, were christians, but....considering where all of this took place, i would have to say that a fair number of them were of Jewish descent. So did the Jews kill Christ? no they did not. How can i say this? it was part of God's plan. at any time, he could have called forth a thousand angels to take him from the cross. he didn't, even when he felt that his father had forsaken him, even when he felt that spear enter his side. Why? Because (and this is in red my bible, so i think that if they highlighted it it must be important) his greatest commandment to his followers was "Love thy Neighbor". Why?
Because that's what he was, the love of a father being poured out to his children. Much the same as parents will tell the kids to stop fighting, the things that they fight over is no big deal. Christ was more than a man, he was more than the son of God. He was given to us, to kill, to go to hell, and to get the keys. Everyone knows the verse, he is love. not the crap we have here on earth that we call love, but perfect and pure love. It was his plan for his son to die.
I hope this clarifies things. Remember, you may not believe this to be fact, but i believe it to be truth.
about the nuns....for Christians to behave in that manner is reprehensible. For people who we look at for guidance in the Christian realm to break Christ's greatest commandment to us, is an abomination. They should be excommunicated.
Most of the people i know of who are Christians, ie, those who know God in thier heart, as oposed to people who profess to be christians, ie those who know who God is, would never allow this to happen. Instead, these nuns are simply people who know who God is, and do not in fact know God, in other words, while they profess christianity, they are not in my opinion Christians.
I know that people will pick this apart, and i won't argue with you. What you want is fact, what i have given is truth, the two are not one in the same.
-
Originally posted by Sapphire
1. John 18:20 if you dare read it. >> Refutes your claim that they didn't let him preach. yes, they stopped him when he was becoming so popular.....but he had been teaching. And by Jewish law....he had to be Jewish in order to teach in the temple.
If I dare??? Lets see, your saying they did let him preach then they stopped him, in other words they didnt let him preach :rolleyes: And they didnt stop him because he was becoming popular, they stopped him because what he was preaching was not Judaism.
Originally posted by Sapphire
2. Show me where I said he wasn't a Jew... I said that being born in Judea wasn't what made him a Jew. Show me...I implore you.
Seeing how your "imploring me" here ya go:
Is Jesus a Jew now? well......I don't think Jesus or God the Father considers themselves to be a part of any donomination or religion
You say hes a god then argue that hes a jew :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Sapphire
3. You've ignored the evidence and reasons that I have given....it would be a waste of time for me to bring up the rest. You've already made up your mind, I won't confuse you with facts.
I think you're just confusing yourself.
Originally posted by Sapphire
Now enough of this foolishness out of respect for those that are tired of it...
No.
-
You know, sometimes I wonder if 'Not spilling your seed on barren Earth' should be applied to preaching as well as to sex.
All you can do, as a missionary, is help where you can and try to be as good a version of what you view a Christian to be. You will probably find that those actions in and of themselves will soften peoples hearts far more towards your faith than any amount of blackmail.
-
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
- Mahatma Gandhi
-
gank are you going to admit that he did at one time teach in the temple?
that's all i want to know.
-
I havent said he didnt :rolleyes: What I have said is that he did and was driven out because he wasnt preaching judaism. Thjerefore he cannot be considered a jew based on this.
I am utterly shocked that christians can actually argue that their god is a member of a religion which denies he is a god. The stupidity of it is astonishing.
-
SW, he will never answer that. I tried. I have never ever seen anyone so unable to admit he was wrong that he avoids all questions that might show that he's mistaken.
If I were to muse here a bit....i believe it stems from hatred towards Jews. Therefore, we cannot and will not look at Jesus as even being vaguely related to the Jews (other than he had the misfortune of being born in their native land). But thats just my Opinion.
Regardless...ya, those missionaries weren't walking the walk by holding the Gospel ransom.
[edit] I stand corrected. So if he was allowed to teach (not to mention to be in that area of the temple) does it not stand to reason, he had to have been Jewish in order to do this??
-
ok so you agree that he did at one time teach in the temple.
is it part of jewish law that only a jew may teach in the temple?
-
Originally posted by Sapphire
If I were to muse here a bit....i believe it stems from hatred towards Jews. Therefore, we cannot and will not look at Jesus as even being vaguely related to the Jews (other than he had the misfortune of being born in their native land). But thats just my Opinion.
Ahh, play the anti-semitism card, how big of you. Resorting to this sort of thing is a sure sign of an arguement falling apart. If you'll reread my posts you'll see that I've said Jesus cant be considered a jew if you are a christian, non christians like myself can argue it based on a number of things.
Originally posted by Sapphire
[edit] I stand corrected. So if he was allowed to teach (not to mention to be in that area of the temple) does it not stand to reason, he had to have been Jewish in order to do this??
Percieved as jewish. Seeing how he was kicked out of the temple, does it not stand to reason that what he was preaching was not actually judaism?
I cant actually believe you're still arguing this, seeing how you've already said he isnt a jew :rolleyes:
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
ok so you agree that he did at one time teach in the temple.
is it part of jewish law that only a jew may teach in the temple?
Urrgh:
Originally posted by Gank
What I have said is that he did and was driven out because he wasnt preaching judaism. Therefore he cannot be considered a jew based on this.
-
You've shown that aside from being able to pull a scripture out of context...you have no understanding of what the bible was about from cover to cover. Furthermore, because its obvious that you have a personal agenda to just argue, I have nothing further to say to you.
-
What I have said is that he did
and thereby you admit that he did once teach in the temple. now do you also agree that by jewish law only a jew may teach in the temple? stop avoiding it and answer the question.
-
Originally posted by Sapphire
You've shown that aside from being able to pull a scripture out of context...you have no understanding of what the bible was about from cover to cover. Furthermore, because its obvious that you have a personal agenda to just argue, I have nothing further to say to you.
Good, because you shot your own argument down a few pages ago. Bout time you realised it.
ShadowWolf_IH, Luther was a monk in a Catholic monastery, I suppose you think this makes him Catholic? I've already pointed out the flaw in what you're saying, I'm not going to do it again.
-
you didn';t point out a damned thing. you in fact made the point that christ did in fact teach in a temple, you don't want to admit that it was jewish law that only a jew could teach in the temple.
you won't admit that statement because you know that if you do it negates your entire arguement.
Christ taught in a the temple,
only a jew may teach in the temple
those are the facts, and they are not disputed.
you have already admitted to the first half of that statement, and you know that if you admit to the second half it negates your entire arguement. Your avoidance of the question also negates your arguement. either answer the question, or shut the hell up.
-
Urrrgh, how stupid can you be?
Your arguement:
Christ taught in a jewish temple.
Only Jews can teach in jewish temples.
Therefore Christ a Jew
My arguement:
Christ taught in a jewish temple.
Only Jews can teach in jewish temples.
Christ kicked out of temple
Therefore Christ not a jew.
Its not me whos ignoring the question, its you whos ignoring the fact that he was kicked out of the temple. You are basing your arguement on only part of what happened, not me. Your whole ****ing arguement is bollox anyways, you're claiming your god is a member of a religion which says he isnt a god, you're disproving your own beliefs you twat.
-
so then by your arguement, anyone who was ever kicked out of any religeon was never a part of that religeon? that is your arguement. that is what you are stating.
so then by your arguement pec was not a part of this community. yet we do have proof that he was a part of this community, but no longer is.
have you gotten the point yet? christ was, at one time a jew. some jews decided that he had not fulfilled all of the prophecies and therefore was not the messiah whose coming was foretold. they kicked him out. that does not negate the fact that he was a jew.
what i don't understand at this point is why you cannot simply make your point without losing your cool and resorting to the all important name calling. is something the matter? why so defensive all of a sudden?
-
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
so then by your arguement, anyone who was ever kicked out of any religeon was never a part of that religeon? that is your arguement. that is what you are stating.
I am not saying that, I am saying he is not part of that religion now.
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
so then by your arguement pec was not a part of this community. yet we do have proof that he was a part of this community, but no longer is.
So he is not part of this community then? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
have you gotten the point yet? christ was, at one time a jew. some jews decided that he had not fulfilled all of the prophecies and therefore was not the messiah whose coming was foretold. they kicked him out. that does not negate the fact that he was a jew.
urrrghh so we're going from claiming he was a jew to claiming he was a jew at one stage. Ok, I was brought up catholic, I now no longer hold catholic beliefs. Therefore I am not a catholic. Very very simple thing to understand. Jesus may have been of the jewish faith at one stage, but at the end of the day he wasnt. He turned his back on Judaism, it turned its back on him, whatever way you want to put it at the end of the day he did not die a jew.
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
what i don't understand at this point is why you cannot simply make your point without losing your cool and resorting to the all important name calling. is something the matter? why so defensive all of a sudden?
Because I've had to make my point repeatedly :rolleyes: And its offensive, not defensive :rolleyes:
-
ok so now you are admitting that jesus was a jew? not is, but was. in much the same way that you were catholic, but no longer are? That was the entire crux of the arguement. No one was stating that he died an accepted member of the jewish faith. and something else...he did worship his father as the jews did. which is really all that religeon is. Christ was a jew.
now was christ a jew at the time of his death? that is a philosophical question i think. I think that even in his death christ was worshipping his father as per the jewish traditions, and that he was a jew, however he was not accepted by those who were clinging to the belief that he was not the messiah. so while he was no longer accepted in the jewish faith as a brother, he did practice the jewish faith. he wasn't worshipping himself in that faith, but was worshipping his father, which is who the jews worship.
i think that difference in our arguements is one of time. i am saying was, you are saying is. Pec WAS, is my arguement, Pec IS NOT, is your arguement. But Pec was a member. you can't discount that. Pec IS NOT a member, i cannot discount that. but to say that pec was not a member would infer that he had never been a member, and that is not true.
to say that jesus was not a jew would infer that he had never been a jew, which is also not true. jesus didn't turn his back on judaism, he turned his back on the church. Those are two different things. turning your back on the church is not the same as turning your back on your faith.
so as far as i am concerned, christ died practicing the jewish faith. which was the worship of his father, and the traditions inherent to that worship. which is to say, in my opinion, christ died a jew. just not an accepted one.
-
Originally posted by Sapphire
Jesus was a Jew.
Please note "was". I said he was a Jew.
-
So Christianity is bollox then. Mkay.
-
whatever gank. good day to you.
-
Bye bye now.
-
I think this is done.
Oh, sure, lock it before I can join in on the fun. See what I care. :p // Sandwich
P.S. Any future questions regarding messianic judaism can be directed at me. ;)