Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Swamp_Thing on January 26, 2005, 07:42:03 am
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Just in. A chopper went down near the syrian jordanian border, 31 killed.
They are dropping like flies. Literally!
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karma.
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cameleon...
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red gold and green,
red gold and greeeeeeeeEEEEEEEeeeen...
is that the words?
Waste of a nice helicopter.
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Isn't it sad how callous we are?
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Originally posted by vyper
Isn't it sad how callous we are?
Uh, no, not really. They signed up for that. You mess with a wasp´s nest, you are bound to get stung.
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Originally posted by beatspete
red gold and green,
red gold and greeeeeeeeEEEEEEEeeeen...
is that the words?
Waste of a nice helicopter.
No it's something like "he comes and goes, something goooooeees."
or.... something.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/)
According to the initial investigation, the helicopter was not shot down; rather it crashed due to a mechanical failure or poor weather conditions. Iraq was hit by severe sandstorms that grounded all military aircraft two days ago.
I have a hard time believing whenever they say a chopper goes down in a war zone, for "mechanical failure". Do they think we are all stupid? Haven´t they heard of auto-rotation?
It´s almost impossible to crash a chopper, even when the tail rotor goes out. The spinning movement of the blades keeps the chopper from dropping like a stone. The only thing that would cause the chopper to drop out of the sky like that is a bad pilot, enemy fire, or a total failure in the rotor blades (like loosing a blade).
Chances are these guys were an incursion squad, heading for Syrian territory in recon. And no one in the White House would ever admit US forces entered syrian territory, as that would be an act of war.
I don´t feel the slightest sad for them. They shouldn´t have been there in the first place.So you won´t see me shed a tear for them, that´s for damn sure.
:rolleyes:
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I feel sorry for the soldiers and the families though. Most were probably just doing what they were told to do...
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/)
According to the initial investigation, the helicopter was not shot down; rather it crashed due to a mechanical failure or poor weather conditions. Iraq was hit by severe sandstorms that grounded all military aircraft two days ago.
I have a hard time believing whenever they say a chopper goes down in a war zone, for "mechanical failure". Do they think we are all stupid? Haven´t they heard of auto-rotation?
It´s almost impossible to crash a chopper, even when the tail rotor goes out. The spinning movement of the blades keeps the chopper from dropping like a stone. The only thing that would cause the chopper to drop out of the sky like that is a bad pilot, enemy fire, or a total failure in the rotor blades (like loosing a blade).
Chances are these guys were an incursion squad, heading for Syrian territory in recon. And no one in the White House would ever admit US forces entered syrian territory, as that would be an act of war.
I don´t feel the slightest sad for them. They shouldn´t have been there in the first place.So you won´t see me shed a tear for them, that´s for damn sure.
:rolleyes:
You are quite the conspiracy theorist. Learn some tact.
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Tact? Why? He's just stating his opinion based on the facts and precident.
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Originally posted by Deepblue
You are quite the conspiracy theorist. Learn some tact.
What conspiracy? All i did was state a well know fact amongs chopper pilots (i was in the Air Force, btw). Choppers don´t crash, they descend. How the hell did they manage to crash a chopper, in a desert, with 50km visibility on all directions? The sand storms were over for days.
The simple fact is, the White House doesn´t like to admit loss of troops to enemy fire. An "accident" is easier to explain to the public.
As for "tact", i don´t need any. I´ve never hid my opinion from nobody. As far as i´m concerned, the US Army is an invasion force, and i couldn´t care less wether 100 or 1000 die over there. They have it coming. And i don´t care about their families either. The fact that Bush stands in office today is a proof that most families agree with what´s going on over there. That makes them just as guilty in my book.
You want "tact"? Go ask the 100.000 iraqi deads if the US Army had any "tact" when they killed them in cold blood.
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Thing is, especially in sandy environments, Helicopters have a few weak spots. The rotors cause massive torque on the drive shaft, and fighting against strong winds increases that. Also, and more importantly, the Engines take a hell of a lot of Air, and the turbines generate the power that keep the gyro and other stuff balanced up and keeps the chopper level.
If sand manages to clog up the brushes in the generator or work it's way into the driveshaft, you end up with a situation that may cause a crash.
However, that said, someone needs to go kick some of the ground crew up their arses, they should be checking those things before every single flight.
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You know, there seems to be only one reason for threads like this being allowed to stay on the boards. Thats to keep undesireables from joining HLP.. You know, undesireables such as: Jews, Americans, blacks, hispanics, asians, Christians...etc.
Keep up the good work...
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ROFL That's the most pathetic attempt at a flame I've seen for ages.
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It did provide some laughs mind, so she has that going for her...
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Sounds like an RPG shot them down. All helo's that massacred the passangers in the Iraqi war (most of them anyway), simply burst into flames for no reason at all.
Seems like Iraqi's are getting some shots in. Though it really doesn't compare.
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To make a serious claim like that Sapphire your probably partially racist yourself.
I do believe that Swamp_Thing may be a little over zealous though...
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What type of bird was it?
And who was in it?
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maybe she says that because she HAS seen posts to that effect more than once in here. you guys ever think that maybe those of us who have been here for a while are the reason that New people leave?
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To a degree, I agree, hoever, it also needs to be taken into account that the phrase 'Bush is a maniacal bastard' is not the phrase 'all Americans are maniacal Bastards'.
That sort of reasoning infuriates me, it's like telling someone who is black that they are a pillock and being accused of racism, it's nothing to do with their colour and everything to do with the fact they are a pillock.
Patriotism is all well and good, but believe it or not, an insult to one American is not an insult to all Americans etc. This is the big bad world now, please leave your Ego at the reception desk.
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And bring a suitable recepticle.
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then why do i see america this and US that? or "americans"? it's an insult to all americans when 31 americans die in a war that they may or may not agree with, and people decide to laugh. It's an insult to all americans when we lose a space shuttle, and people decide to laugh.
It's an insult to all those of christian faith when they see "****in christians" you will of course note that there was no qualifier for that one, just all lumped in together.
and we don't even need to get into the racial slurs. I think those got covered in one of anon's threads.
and this isn't the big bad world, this is a place on the internet built for freespace. leave your own ego.
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Don't be in such a rush to take offence, you really are a wonderful example of what I am talking about.
I've heard enough about Muslims to make no comment whatsoever on the religious side of things.
I don't actually hear much in the way of racial slurs on here at all to be honest, the odd sarcastic comment, but I suppose it all depends on how you look at it.
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the fact is, this is the kind of bull**** that is running our new people off. if you take offense at that, maybe it's because somewhere you know that you are one of the people who are doing it. the older members here are supposed to be helping HLP grow, and the constant *****ing about this isn't helping. not when new people leave because of it.
everyday there is a new "let's ***** about america" thread. How many do we need? it's the theme of Hard light. a place for everything. it has become a place to *****.
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For all intended purposes, when we say "americans" is not a reference to ALL americans. However, the last US election has given us grounds to believe that MOST americans are behind Bush and his maniacal enterprises, and thus are equally warrented for criticism.
If the majority of americans feel they are being wrongfully criticized, they should have made that perfectlly clear in the November elections. But they did not.
You made your bed, now you have to sleep in it. Don´t blame the rest of the world for the bumps in the bed YOU made.
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who's blaming the world....i'm just tired of hearing the anti american bull****. the anti christian bull****, the racial slurs, all of it. Everyday there is something new that allows people to ***** about the same **** that they have been *****ing about for a long time. every single day, someone has to post a new *****ing thread.
when it comes to the point that we are running off new people because of these things, then something needs to be done about it. This is HLP, it was made for freespace and a place for us to come together, i see these actions as something that is tearing it down.
Rapid forum is a free service. Build a new forum there and ***** til your heart's content, but quit doing things in here that are running off new people.
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Look, how do you think I feel when your countrymen treat Tony Blair as being truly representative of the opinions of the people in the UK? Pretty ****ing pissed off.
Besides which, if I feel the need to racially stereotype you it's my right to do so until such a time as my already semi-facist government bans it. :p That's the price of freedom.
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I don´t think HLP is loosing members on account of discussion. Hell, look at the new members list! We have had more people joining in the last couple of months than the whole time i´ve been here put together!
It is fair to say however, that most people here do share the same view when american policy is concerned. To me, that shows us just what the world thinks about this subject. Bush has divided the planet. And closing your eyes to it won´t make it go away.
Anyway, the idea behind this thread was NOT to start a flame war, it was just to inform people of the latest incident in Iraq. And to start a discussion about wether the chopper was shot down, or it crashed down. So many choppers have "crashed" in Iraq that its getting anecdotal. Either they need to start buying other choppers, or admit to the truth that they were shot down.
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i agree, people are joining. and some people are being run off. I absolutely disagree with censorship, so please don't think that i am in any way advocting it, but there is a time and place, and i don't think that HLP is the place. News is news, thank you. But this thread quickly turned into a bash america thread. "They are dropping like flies, literally!" that simply converys your joy over "the good news that yet more people have died". I am not the only one to see it that way
On these boards it is almost criminal to be pro american and a christian. That's where my problem is. Is this the message we want to send to our new people, that the lawlessness of HLP that Derek Smart spoke of is in fact a reality?
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Well, while some of the comments are distasteful, I don't think any of them can be regarded as flaming. Maybe flame-baiting, but I don't know. We don't really like to close threads because some users don't like the opinions being expressed in them, when there is no flaming, spamming and the content is not illegal.
So it's more a cultural thing than anything else. There isn't much the staff can do about it, short of censuring certain subjects.
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Actually, the "dropping like flies" expression was sarcastic. The chopper dropped from the sky, just as a fly. So many choppers haver crashed latelly, that it begs disbelief.
It wasn´t meant to convey my personnal opinion on it. It was just sarcasm.
But let´s drop this issue. I don´t want, nor have i ever wanted to create flame wars. Don´t take my personnal opinion on the matter as an insult, take it for what it is: an opinion. Sometimes i´m blunt, but no one can accuse me of being two-faced, i say it as i see it , and as i feel it.
So, if by any way you or others felt insulted by my blunt words, i apologize. It was not my intention.
Ok?
:nod:
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i didn't think that we were in a flame war.
i AM angry, but I am simply angry about the fact that we have become so complacent in how we do things and what we say, that we disregard the new people when they come in. If everyday a post was made that was against what you thought and believed, and everyday there was a bandwagon on that thread, how welcome would you feel?
let me say this, and just take it for what it's worth ok?
I voted for Bush. Not because i think that he is a great president, but because i saw him as the lesser of two evils. Given the choice of eating beans or broccoli, i will eat the broccoli, because my dislike for it is not as great as my dislike for beans. There are alot of people who are in my shoes.
The war, i support getting sadam out of power. Fully, i also support our guys trying to keep the peace while the Iraqi people set up a government. I don't think that the big problem is them setting up a government, i think that the big problem is that "American agressors" are once again on thier soil. I honestly believe that the Iraqi people don't care who is in power, as long as it up to them, and they lead themselves. I realy do believe that all they want is for us to go home. And if that is what they want, i support that.
I believed in getting sadam out fo power, but i believe it's time to bring our boys home. Or start pulling out right after the election.
how's that?
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Deleted, nevermind
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Hows this: you should never have been there in the first place. It's not the US's job to unilaterally stop "rogue" nations who are already under sanction from the UN. And don't give me any tired bull**** about how ineffective the UN is - it's ineffective because your nation (and mine in truth) weilds it's veto like a large knob raping everything that could possibly give the UN and other non-profit multinational organisations any true power and influence.
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Well, that explains why you got so worked up over almost nothing. I guess i was just the feather that tilted the scale.
But i ask you this:
You said you believed in overthrowing Saddam, right?
Now answer me this. If Saddam was the american president, would you like it that France (for example) invaded the US, and dropped bombs on your family? And arrested you without lawyer or trial for years on end? And subjected you to the same torture that you were supposed to be getting rid of? What would you do if your child got his arms and legs amputated and burnt to a crisp?
And you had to eat rats to feed yourself because the food warehouses were destroyed? And you had to drink the water of rain pools in the street? And that you had to pay 100 times more for gas, when your country is swimming in the stuff? And that your children have to study on candle light, because you still don´t have electricity?
How would you feel? Would you cheer the french invaders? Offer them flowers? Or would you do the obvious thing and fight to protect your home and country?
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of course i wouldn't like it. no one does, which is why i think that our boys need to come home. i also think that if we had finished the job in 91, well, what can i say except hitler/poland/39? I think that we should have stopped him in 91, we should have rolled into bagdad and taken him out. remember, that was about him invading kuwait. the objective there was to get him out of kuwait, and we did thta, then helped kuwait, and went home. That's why i am all for getting him out of power. We know that he will do a land grab in a heartbeat. we also know that no one else has the balls to stand up to him and fight.
i don't like the fact that civilians were killed and are now fighting against us as we try to liberate them from a dictator, and try tpo keep peace while another government is set up. for what it's worth swamp, you don't need to explain the horrors of war to me, i've lived them. either way, war is a terrible thing, and i would fight to get you people to go home, i'm not saying anything against that, hell all that they want is for us to go home. That's all i want now.
and vyper out of everything that you said, i agree with one thing that you didn't say but inferred....there should be no nation with veto powers in the UN.
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
and vyper out of everything that you said, i agree with one thing that you didn't say but inferred....there should be no nation with veto powers in the UN.
Or probably only one, bu not the US ;)
A country with another vision of "liberty"
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none.
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You didn´t answer my question. You said you wouldn´t like it, but what would YOU do?
And if your answer is "i would fight", why don´t you give iraqis similar rights? Why aren´t they allowed to fight the invader? Why should they just take it up the arse and shut up? Aren´t they equally entitled to fight for what they believe in?
You know, i was all for the overthrowning of Saddam. But NOT like that. Bush has a dangerous taste for blood. He doesn´t think about exausting diplomatic options, he jumps on the war wagon right away. Do you think it´s normal that a president invades 2 sovereign nations on his first term, and is already targeting 2 or 3 more for his second term as president? You see that as the actions of a normal man? I don´t. Nor does 90% of the world´s population.
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of course i would fight. and of course i am not taking away the right that they have to do the same. They don't see us getting rid of Sadam, they see us as killing thier loved ones. How can i say that they don't have the right to fight? bottom line is, if you came into my backyard and started killing my family i would take you out.
my point is, that they want us to go home, i think our job is done, and i want us to go home as well. I don't think that there was another way to overthrow him, i simply don't see any other way working to get him out. But it's done, it's time to go home and NOT be what the world thinks we are.
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
I think that we should have stopped him in 91, we should have rolled into bagdad and taken him out.
There is a very good reason why they didn't do just that, and it's happening right now.
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
And subjected you to the same torture that you were supposed to be getting rid of? What would you do if your child got his arms and legs amputated and burnt to a crisp?
Whoa, slow down there. Where did you get this BS?
And yes death is bad. But this is a war, and death is part of war. However, there are more people murdered every day than those that die in this war. Death is all around, people can be savages, welcome to reality.
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
I believed in getting sadam out fo power, but i believe it's time to bring our boys home. Or start pulling out right after the election.
how's that?
That's good, but the thing that, IMO, pissed many people, was the fact that Bush lied, and you can't telll us it's not the truth, about the reason for this war. Because, sorry, but WMD, link to Al-Quaida = nada.
And the "Saddam is a tyran" thing ? US has supported to many tyrans in the past and the present to be a believable reason anymore. I don't flame America or American, I just want to express why I tend do dislike the country nowadays(though I wouldn't be against visiting it someday).
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
the fact is, this is the kind of bull**** that is running our new people off. if you take offense at that, maybe it's because somewhere you know that you are one of the people who are doing it. the older members here are supposed to be helping HLP grow, and the constant *****ing about this isn't helping. not when new people leave because of it.
everyday there is a new "let's ***** about america" thread. How many do we need? it's the theme of Hard light. a place for everything. it has become a place to *****.
:wtf:
I'm actually more likely to take offence at your generalisations about me as a person, and you complain about us making generalisations about a country?
I've kept a pretty even view throughout the whole thing, I've always stated that, regardless of what the motives in the higher echelons, the Soldiers are not bloody-thirsty murderous vampires, they are men and women like the people on here.
However, when you turn round and basically imply that, simply because I don't agree with your idea of the problem, then I am therefore probably adding to it rings far too many bells for my taste.
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actually, flipside, you were the one i was thikning that it LEAST applied to.
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Well, I'll let you off this time then :p
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k ;)
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A Ch-53 is a fairly big machine, need something pretty hefty to take it down. That said its big and slow, a ZU-23 would probably make ****e of it fairly quickly. Western Iraq doesnt really have much of a US presence iirc, shouldnt be too hard to hide a AA gun or Sam system out there, theyre managing to drop Grads in on most of the major US bases after all.
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Well, we're talking Chinooks here, not high-grade military chopper. Should be tougher in bad weather, but they see a lot higher workload than combat choppers.
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Super Stallion actually, bit bigger than a Chinook. Lot better at handling bad weather too, plus it has three engines. And you'd expect out of 31 people on board there'd be at least a few survivors even if they were badly hurt, as Swamp thing pointed out:
The only thing that would cause the chopper to drop out of the sky like that is a bad pilot, enemy fire, or a total failure in the rotor blades (like loosing a blade).
Sand blowing out the engines isnt going to cause it to drop like a stone, even if all 3 engines blew at once.
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
and vyper out of everything that you said, i agree with one thing that you didn't say but inferred....there should be no nation with veto powers in the UN.
At least we can agree on that. :)
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who's blaming the world....i'm just tired of hearing the anti american bull****. the anti christian bull****, the racial slurs, all of it. Everyday there is something new that allows people to ***** about the same **** that they have been *****ing about for a long time. every single day, someone has to post a new *****ing thread.
There are things I'm tired of hearing, too. I'm tired of hearing that the new Star Wars movies sucked. It offends me as a... well, it just does. I'm tired of hearing that "Wicked" was a good show, because it was definitely cookie-cutter recycled pop ****. I'm tired of hearing that it's immoral for me to have Mr. Peanut tied up in my basement where I sadistically interrogate him every night. It's my right.
But you know what? It's the general discussion forum and I accept that I'm not going to like what people say, and that I have the same right as everyone else to express my point in opposition, or to ignore it.
By the way, who the hell is using racial slurs?
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you didn't notice the thread that got closed just two or three days ago?
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Ehhh... come again?
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
you didn't notice the thread that got closed just two or three days ago?
No. Link?
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Aparentlly, today was the most deadly day for US troops in over 15 years. And the image that comes to mind is Bush in an aircraft carrier saying "Our work is done!"...
:rolleyes:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/)
Btw, you will find a picture of the chopper in question in the link.
Big sucker, very reliable, strongly built, triple turbine with 5 blade rotor. These babies don´t just fall out of the sky.
Maybe it was filled with lots of fat marines, and they went over the weight limit. There are fats in the army too...
:doubt:
@Deepblue
Whoa, slow down there. Where did you get this BS?
Whoa!! Slow down there yourself! You haven´t heard? What do you think the Abu Ghraib scandal, the british trials, and Guantanamo were all about? Football? Or maybe you have a definition of torture diferent from that of 99% of the planet...
:wtf:
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I hate America, only because I have to be part of it. If I lived somewhere else, I wouldnt care. It wouldnt be my ass at the end of the shotgun.
With that said, America! **** YEAH!! We're gonna save the mother****in day, yeah!
EDIT: Wow, that was weird... Somehow 20something replies showed up in the past 2 minutes as I was responding to an earlier post.
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I think people are taking offense because you said:
"i couldn´t care less wether 100 or 1000 die over there. They have it coming. And i don´t care about their families either. The fact that Bush stands in office today is a proof that most families agree with what´s going on over there. That makes them just as guilty in my book."
You want to talk about generalizations. If you didn't noticed He didn't win a landslide and about half this country doesn't like him and didn't vote for him like myself.
I don't get mad at people when they express their opinions, however, that comment does kind of upset me. However, it's not my fault that some people on this forum never learned respect for others. For all you know some of those people on the helicopter might have fomer HLPers or a close family member or friend of somebody here. How do think that would upset them if they were to read that. Or think hypothetically. What if it were one of your family members that died in something like that and then I said something like. "I'm glad they're dead. Maybe they'll learn their lesson or something." And don't give me that BS that it wouldn't spark some sort of reaction out of you. I know it would. And you'd probably be typing this same **** that I'm typing right now to me. I'm just asking people to please keep respect for the dead. Just a wee little bit?
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I think people took offence because the US is suffering from a "victim" complex.
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:rolleyes:
yeah Vyper that must be it.
i take offense at constantly having to see the anti america propoganda of this place. i look a thread that may be newsworthy by the title, and it's just another thread for people to bash us. your opinions have all been noted....yet again.
i think i'll go work on my mod some more, you know, the thing we actually have HLP for.
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Aparentlly, today was the most deadly day for US troops in over 15 years. And the image that comes to mind is Bush in an aircraft carrier saying "Our work is done!"...
:rolleyes:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6847225/)
Btw, you will find a picture of the chopper in question in the link.
Big sucker, very reliable, strongly built, triple turbine with 5 blade rotor. These babies don´t just fall out of the sky.
Maybe it was filled with lots of fat marines, and they went over the weight limit. There are fats in the army too...
:doubt:
@Deepblue
Whoa!! Slow down there yourself! You haven´t heard? What do you think the Abu Ghraib scandal, the british trials, and Guantanamo were all about? Football? Or maybe you have a definition of torture diferent from that of 99% of the planet...
:wtf:
Cutting arms off and burning off the stubs? Riiiiight. Abu Ghraib was nothing near that level. Thats what I was talking about.
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He was referring to the consequences of bombing civilians you hick idiot. Do you know how pissed off I am getting at you lot deliberately misinterpreting points?
ShadowWolf, you have the biggest modern empire of any nation right now and you have almost unsurpassed influence around the globe. Your country is hardly the underdog here.
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
And subjected you to the same torture that you were supposed to be getting rid of? What would you do if your child got his arms and legs amputated and burnt to a crisp?
Bombs aren't very good at amputations.
Is it even possible for you not to insult those that disagree with you? Keep it nice children.
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
:rolleyes:
yeah Vyper that must be it.
i take offense at constantly having to see the anti america propoganda of this place. i look a thread that may be newsworthy by the title, and it's just another thread for people to bash us. your opinions have all been noted....yet again.
i think i'll go work on my mod some more, you know, the thing we actually have HLP for.
oh noes they are critcizing the usa some evil conspiracy must be going on here!!