Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Slasher on August 21, 2001, 01:20:00 am
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Ever since I finished FS2 for the first time, I've always wondered whether travelling in subspace was a line-of-sight matter. I can't really come to a conclusive answer because of the slightly contradicting information FS2 offers. For instance, when RTBing in any regular mission you're not required to point your fighter back in the direction of the Aquitaine before initializing your subspace jump. Yet in the command briefings they clearly show a line linking one system to another. I think the line may just be a representation, a symbol perhaps, to show how one jump node leads to the other. Still, when you're playing the last mission in the original FreeSpace, the subspace effect gives the impression the Lucifer is travelling down a "subspace corridor". So, is it possible the line-of-sight thing only holds true for intersystem jumps, and intrasystem jumps involve the simple affair of activating your jump drive and ending up where you want? Or do I have it all wrong?
And, if it doesn't hold true to the line-of-sight theory, doesn't that mean that all those subspace interdictor cruisers people are inventing (a'la Star Wars) wouldn't work? They must be strategically placed to bring a ship out of subspace/hyperspace, so if a ship didn't pass through it's interdiction field it wouldn't be caught and brought out of subspace.
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I bet for the line of sight thing. If you don't have to point your fighter in the right direction, it's just for the sake of gameplay. AND I have an exemple, for once (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Look at the Xwing series, no doubt you need to be very accurate in Starwars when going in hyperspace ( speach of Ian Solo about colliding with a supernovae and so on). This is reflected in the Xwing series, till XWing Alliance (and maybe Xwing vs Tie Fighter, don't remember). In XWA, you don't have to point your ship in the right direction, and that's a cruel realism flaw, right? they just dropped that coz people often try a last hipe jump at the end of mission, when all the objectives are fulfiled and the Hull is critical. When you die just at the very last second, believe me, you're not happy.
Well, in FS2, it's the same. You already have that slow down sequence, if you have to add a facing sequence, well... I wouldn't have finished "Playing Judas" at the first try ( around 5% hull while jumping out, adrenaline rush (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif))
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I think it's a combination of both.
A subspace node is like a wormhole mouth, right? A hole in our 3D space into another dimension. So the opening into subspace is 3D, therefore you can enter into (and exit) it from any angle.
As for the corridor. This is a straight corridor--in subspace dimensions. So what I think is that, say you enter into the Vasuda-Altair node facing away from Altair (in our space), in the corridor (subspace) you would be facing the Altair exit. Then, when you exit subspace, you would exit the node still facing away from Altair.
Joe.
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www.joek.com ("http://www.joek.com/")
Revelations: A FS2 Campaign ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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I imagine bubbles. Bubbles of subspace around large concentrations of gravitational force. Bubbles. Usually not large enough to join each other. Bubbles that have to be connected via 'tunnels' to other bubbles. Bubbles. I liek bubbles.
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The lines on the maps represent intersystem jump nodes. These are subspace tunnels that connect star systems. Without these tunnels...you would be unable to use conventional subspace travel to go to another star system.
Within a system I imagine the direction is not necessarily related. Its more of just phasing out of one location and phasing back into another. Probably a gameplay concession as well.
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As with these threads, eventually we out-think the (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) people who put these game concepts in place. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Well, if I was developing a game, I would have thought of all this stuff. Maybe (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) thought about it, but just didn''t release any info, and now they can't do it due to copyrights and stuff...
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Originally posted by Styxx:
Well, if I was developing a game, I would have thought of all this stuff.
Well, if you had, say, 10 years to develop a game, you could. When I designed one of my many universes, it took about that long to get everything just right, and I still add new stuff every once and a while. It just takes valuable time you could be spending tweaking the game engine, getting flight dynamics right, and scripting missions.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
When I designed one of my many universes, it took about that long to get everything just right, and I still add new stuff every once and a while
Ditto. I have 3 own universes of mine (Veil of darkness, Outerspace and Oleon Wars are their little codenames (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) ), the oldest one is now living for more then 15 years now... And I'm sure it's still full of flaws. You can't think about everything when you have a reduced staff. Even 50 people won't be able to think about everything. Unleash a ravenous hord ( (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)) of fans, you can count thousands of them, they will find so many things you never ever thought about... And the fs universe was built in what? 1, 2 years for the first game? V worked on what was useful for the gameplay, and had to let everything else to people's imagination. Or else you do like Tolkien, and you spend your lifetime on your universe, and people will still find flaws (and Tolkien knew that very well, as he says in his Unfinished tales of Nùmeroz and Middle-Earth)
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Who knows? Maybe V left these open ends for us fans to speculate about.
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Originally posted by Slasher:
Who knows? Maybe V left these open ends for us fans to speculate about.
Perhaps, but a scientific concept? Plot points I can understand, but... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Setekh:
Perhaps, but a scientific concept? Plot points I can understand, but... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Actually, I understand that a lot. For that universe I mentioned it took years to come up with the propulsion technology they used, and I still don't have a clue how it works. Then, of course, I came up with something so eternally complex that I couldn't even begin to explain it. So I just say it works, and don't question it. It makes it easier on me.
V probably did the same, concentrating on gameplay instead of the insignificat details of the universe. Besides, we can then make up how it works on our own, creating a badass universe.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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I SOLVED IT!:
just because your fighter is pointing a certain way doesn't mean it is going that way. when you are in a subspace mission and you face the opposite way the tunnel seems to be pulling you, the direction of the pull doesn't change. therefore you can warpout facing away from the ship, and you wil be pulled in backward.
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The lines pointing from one jump node to another interpret the distance from the exit of one jump node to the entrance of another jump node. Just take a look at the command briefing where it shows the plan to have the Bastion collapse the Epsilon Pegasi -> Capella jump node. It had the Bastion travel the line first, as if the line was normal space and once it reached the dot at the end of the line, the Bastion destroyed the node.
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Creator of the Table Edit ("http://denebsystem0.tripod.com/tbledt.html") project.
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[This message has been edited by Joey_21 (edited 08-25-2001).]
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Ahem...
It's A Game!
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Originally posted by Thunder:
Ahem...
It's A Game!
Umm..... so? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
EDIT: Mutters about HTML and peoples quoting ability (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 08-25-2001).]
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So it doesn't really matter. Ah what the hell. Subspace is LOS because I say it is, and I'm a human. In line with the bible and watching Dogma to much - IIRC, anything mankinds holds true on Earth, God will stick to in Heaven, therefore it's dogmatic law and God has made it so that subspace is LOS.
Ha! I win! good for me (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Thunder:
So it doesn't really matter. Ah what the hell. Subspace is LOS because I say it is, and I'm a human. In line with the bible and watching Dogma to much - IIRC, anything mankinds holds true on Earth, God will stick to in Heaven, therefore it's dogmatic law and God has made it so that subspace is LOS.
Ha! I win! good for me (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
I say it's not, then who will God choose? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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The Metatron
HLP's resident religious icon
Vs
Model Magician
I think that unless God has a model fetish, I win (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Thunder:
From:Your mind.
If that's true, you lose (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )
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I[/i] WIN!!!!
Because unlike either of you two, I am a minor deity. And I say I'm right.
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I bite people.
Left Behind:
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html ("http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html")
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In terms of line of sight, it might be impossible for humans to perceive this in subspace since our brains only process information in three dimensions.
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ICQ# 117983680
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
I WIN!!!!
Because unlike either of you two, I am a minor deity. And I say I'm right.
And I am the Eternal Eishtmo. Gods don't live as long as I have.
Of course, it also allows me not to care about such trivial things.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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you guys, my theory was so simple and solved the problems, plus have evidence to back it up. just go with it.
besides, you know shivans have a better knowledge of subspace.
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Originally posted by Carl:
you guys, my theory was so simple and solved the problems, plus have evidence to back it up. just go with it.
Nah, I prefer mine. for me subspace is just a tunnel. our space is 4 dimensionnal, unlike subspace one. So if you want a connection to be possible, it has to fit with the lowest requirements (just like unreal2 won't with my PC (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) ).
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Subspace is upperdimensional, so perhaps it doesn't matter your direction when you go in, because from the perspective of subspace, all directions from 'real' space are the same.
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Sounds like the North Pole. Everywhere is South from there.
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A good reading on Einstein's Theory of Relativity might help (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Webmaster of Subspace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Co-Creator, GroundZero ("http://www.subspacezero.com/omega18.htm")
ICQ# 117983680
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Originally posted by Shrike:
Subspace is upperdimensional,
Like I told you in SB, subspace is a lower dimension, not an upper one.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Like I told you in SB, subspace is a lower dimension, not an upper one.
Well sorry, but if it involves more dimensions than our normal 4, it's upperdimensional (you know, number = >4? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif))
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How 'bout this? Make everyone unhappy:
Subspace is like another place in between, yes? So the dudes can jump in from where ever, get in formation, and then jump out.
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And Einstein has nothing to do with Subspace, because it doesn't really exist. It's just more convenient to the game than the ships actually physically advancing:
[imaginary sequence of FreeSpace without Sibspace]
Command: Look out! We're picking up hostiles on radar!
Alpha 3: Where, Command? I don't see 'em!
Command: Roughly four light-years from your position. Keep an eye out, and rearm i you need to...
[six days later]
Alpha 4: Can we go now, Command
Command: Negative! The Shivans are still coming! Hold your position, it'll only be a few more years!
Alpha 2: Can we at least get lunch?
Command: Are you kidding? A Shivan attack and you want lunch???
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Long live Cheez!
Left Behind(son to be Ragnarok Station):
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html ("http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html")
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My theory:
Subspace is a parallel universe in which the basic laws of physics apply, but distances between certain points of space are just more compressed. It is compressed even more in the places where gravity wells exist in OUR universe, so a vessel travelling in subspace can get somewhere faster by riding the "grav waves" where it is more compressed.
The reason why the tech room says that a subspace drive requires gravity is because outside of a powerful gravity well, distances are compressed so little that it is impossible to get anywhere within the space of a lifetime. When entering subspace, it doesn't really matter which direction you initially point, because you just have to set an exit waypoint and an autopilot takes care of it. It is difficult to navigate manually in subspace because the areas of compression are difficult to predict without a computer and grav sensor, but it is possible.
When command tracks a ship's vector in subspace, they are not tracking the vector that the ship took when it entered subspace, but the vector the autopilot took during its first few seconds of flight, until it left the range of the sensor.
All four dimensions exist in subspace, because if there were only three, it would be instantaneous, and the final mission of FS1 proved that time does exist in subspace(Command: You have seven minutes to destroy the five reactors...).
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And now, a mathematical definition of subspace:
A subspace is a set of vectors, part of another vector space (in this case R^3).
To be a subspace, it has to:
1) include the identity vector (zero vector),
2) be CLOSED under addition (that is, if two vectors a and b are in it, a+b has to be in it too),
3) be CLOSED under scalar multiplication (so if a vector a is in it, ka has to be in it too).
From Dr. Math ("http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/anthony.01.25.01.html").
I know, it makes no sense. What it is saying is that a subspace is a collection of vectors (basically, length, width, height, time) that is within another set of vectors. At minimum, subspace is just another part of space with all four dimensions, at its maximum, its one single dimension. It is not an upper dimension space, that would have more than our four, a subspace cannot have more than four. Ever. If it does, its not a subspace.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
And Einstein has nothing to do with Subspace, because it doesn't really exist. It's just more convenient to the game
That's not entirely true.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
And Einstein has nothing to do with Subspace, because it doesn't really exist. It's just more convenient to the game than the ships actually physically advancing:
[imaginary sequence of FreeSpace without Sibspace]
Command: Look out! We're picking up hostiles on radar!
Alpha 3: Where, Command? I don't see 'em!
Command: Roughly four light-years from your position. Keep an eye out, and rearm i you need to...
[six days later]
Alpha 4: Can we go now, Command
Command: Negative! The Shivans are still coming! Hold your position, it'll only be a few more years!
Alpha 2: Can we at least get lunch?
Command: Are you kidding? A Shivan attack and you want lunch???
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
You want to see how it would be in real? Go and look Gunbuster, it uses all those time stuff, and it's logical and works great, now shut up.
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Sub-space has nothing to do with "riding gravity waves" as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Here are the actual [V] facts on how sub-space within the FreeSpace universe works:
Artificial jumps do not have power requirements to operate outside of a gravity well, the denser the well the more powerful a sub-space jump is.
Natural sub-space nodes exist in regions of space, within FS and FS2 inter-system nodes are the ones used, intra system nodes may exist but are rarely used with the artificial drives.
Artificial and natural drives are seperate devises, the drives fusing these technologies (such as used during the Altair expedition during the Great War) are not cost-effective on fighter craft frames. Capital ships use both the inter system and intra system drives. (natural node and artificial)
Ships when activating the drive vibrate at a frequency which excites a sub-space node, activating it.
Sub-space is N-dimensional.
Each vessel enters it's own sub-space corridor in N-dimensional space. With sub-space tracking ships can enter an existing jump with another vessel.
The pre-existing vessel powers the corridor, and if destroyed in the jump will cause the node to collapse.
Sub-space nodes can be collapsed with high-yield explosions such as a ship loaded bow to stern with Meson warheads, or the power output of five Shivan capital class fusion reactors such as the ones on the Lucifer.
Whether a node is line or sight or not is neglible, no technologies within the FS universe can interdict a vessel within sub-space as it is within it's own corridor and can only be tracked if a vessel observed it's jump into sub-space.
Technologies may be able to interfere with a vessel entering or exiting sub-space, the latter could prove deadly as the ship loses power to maintain the corridor.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Hmmm, that makes a little more sense now. I couldn't really understand why people were making up these "interdiction cruisers" ala Star Wars for their user-made campaigns when it seemed to me that they blatantly violated the rules of FreeSpace physics. Not that I'm saying departing from the nature of the FS universe is a bad thing, it just didn't seem appropriate for a MOD that was meant to stick with the original storyline.
As I see it, the technology to recreate an interdiction effect as seen in Star Wars does not currently exist in FreeSpace (2). However, there is one thing I'm still curious about: when you enter subspace, are you traveling line-of-sight or not? Take this example for instance: an Orion enters a jump node in the Beta Aquilae star system destined for Delta S. Once this single jump is complete, it exits subspace and is now in Delta Serpentis. Logic dictates (oh no, Slasher said "logic") that a strait line can be drawn between the point where the Orion activated it's subspace drive (in real space) and the point where it reopened the magic door and entered Delta Serpentis (emereging in real aka normal space). So is it possible that the line that can be drawn between these two jump points (as seen in all those command briefings) is actually where a "subspace corridor" exists? "Subspace corridor" basically meaning a confined tunnel of, well, subspace, that you cannot travel outside of.
I've also heard contradicting theories as to whether or not the same laws that apply to intersystem jumps apply to those conducting subspace manuvers from within a system's outer limits. But I'm beginning to think that IceFire (and anyone else with a similar theory) was correct in saying intersystem jumps are more line-of-sight (see above) while intrasystem jumps aren't as simple a matter as moving from point a to point b. Here's another example: Alpha 1 is over Sirius III. He punches in the coordinates for 444.34.23 (just random rubbish) and engages his subspace drive, and a few second later he emerges at 444.34.23. Seconds later, Beta 1, who is over Sirius VIII, uses the same coordinates to jump to the exact same location. However, the two fighters originated in totally seperate locations, possibly suggesting that intrasystem jumps don't require any help from intrasystem nodes whatsoever. Further supporting this theory is the fact that ships don't seem to travel on predetermined routes while in a star system, whereas ships moving from one system to another enter a specific point (a jump node), and exit a specific point (another jump node). As is obvious while playing FreeSpace 2, intersystem travel is much more restricted in terms of freedom when compared to intrasystem travel. Unlike in system-to-system jumps, there are practically an unlimited number of ways from getting from point X to point b.
So, what did I miss? Probably a lot, huh? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Actually on the line of sight, from what we've seen the following is more likely:
When you enter a node, you exit facing the same way as you entered in true space at your entry point, but the destination arrival is not effected or altered by your orientation save for your position when exiting.
Ships often move in fomations when jumping for organizational purposes, but it is not nescessary. (this explains why you can jump at odd angles, and doesn't contradict anything we've seen so far in FS)
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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So do you think that jump nodes act more like teleporters than entrances and exits into and out of the "subspace corridors" I theorized about? I can see how orientation upon entering subspace would have little or no effect on an intersystem jump because one way or another you'd be entering the same jump node. However, I can't figure out if you'd be entering the same "subspace corridor" that every other ship might be using. I doubt it, however, because in the last mission of FreeSpace Command needed to track the Lucifer in subspace in order for the GTA and PVN fighters to launch their attack. This probably means that if the GTC St. Agustine entered the Vega jump node just a few minutes after the GTC Roanoke did, and neither ship was tracking the other into or inside of subspace, or making an attempt to stay in formation, they wouldn't have so much as a glimpse of each other while traveling in subspace. So, I think that if there is a subspace corridor (a wormhole like phenomena ala DS9), it is not confined to a single space that every single ship that enters it travels through. Otherwise, what would be the point in tracking ships into intersystem jump nodes, as you'd simply have to enter the corridor and spot them through sensors or make visual contact?
Yeah, I know I'm sorta dancing around the original point with more questions. I've always had a hard time staying on track.
[This message has been edited by Slasher (edited 08-30-2001).]
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So, I think that if there is a subspace corridor (a wormhole like phenomena ala DS9), it is not confined to a single space that every single ship that enters it travels through. Otherwise, what would be the point in tracking ships into intersystem jump nodes, as you'd simply have to enter the corridor and spot them through sensors or make visual contact?
Clearly you did not read the following fact:
Each vessel enters it's own sub-space corridor in N-dimensional space. With sub-space tracking ships can enter an existing jump with another vessel.
Also, the best way to describe sub-space, is not teleportation, but the straight line in a curve.
You may be facing one direction when initiating a jump, but when you exit you are in the facing and position the given coordinates to your drive, period.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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So, in other words, an intersystem subspace corridor wouldn't be like a wormhole, but basically a subspace "field" between two systems (since you said they don't act or adhere to the physical laws of a "teleporter" as we know it) where individual ships enter and exit. Each would generate it's own "corridor" to travel in, but with subspace tracking a number of ships could stay in formation. This would mean that multiple ships could travel between starsystems in subspace simultaneously without ever seeing each other because they'd each be generating their own corridor (unless they're trying to stay together with the aforementioned subspace tracking tech). And, as mentioned before, if the ship that is generating this corridor to travel in is destroyed or suffers a massive power failure, all the ships inside the same corridor would be in peril. But, if this is true, it also means that if it's a big enough ship (*cough*Lucifer*cough*) that blows up in the corridor, it would collapse the entire subspace field/link between the two star systems, meaning that no more of these individual subspace jumps would be possible. Basically a lot of little corridors in one big "N-dimensional space" between systems then?
BTW, I think the line-of-sight thing's been resolved (finally (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)). Thanks for all the replies regarding this subject, as I now have a much clearer picture of how intersystem jumps are conducted and how subspace in general works.
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Slasher, paragraphs are A1-SUPAR! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Yes, what you said is correct.
However just a ship generating a jump in sub-space exploding won't do the trick to collapse a node.
You need the firepower packed in the Lucifer's reactors, or in a ship loaded with Meson warheads. (which shows the power behind the Lucifer's reactors... rather scary...)
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Originally posted by Ace:
Slasher, paragraphs are A1-SUPAR! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
You can talk. Every damn sentence you have has a new paragraph (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Anyway, the Lucifer's reactors would have to be pretty damn heavy if they were to propel such a huge ship through space as well as support an impenetrable shielding system over the entire ship (something which they haven't done on fighters, so it must be even harder than usual). So all in all, yes, a lot of power, a lot of destructive force if you blow 'em up. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Can't you turn your ship around once you'r inside subspace? You could always do that in FS1, remember.
And I read in Astronomy Now Magazine that, theoretically, Hyperspace (or subspace) acctually does exist. Only thing is i'd bet real money that real subspace isn't anything like the Freespace one we all know and love.
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Hyperspace is probably nothing like any sci-fi has shown. We can't really know until we can visit hyper/subspace. Hyperspace is an upper dimension, and subspace is a lower, though, so they aren't the same thing.
Hiya Culloden, haven't seen you around in quite a while.
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I've got a question...
Do you have to travel while inside that subspace corridor?
The only official Volition subspace corridor we've been witness to is the last mission of FS1 where you have to destroy the Lucifer.
But something always bugged me about that mission... when you play it, you'll see that the Lucifer is not moving. It is not trying to get from one end of the corridor to the other. Yet Command is yelling at you about how much time is left.
So, do ships have to travel in subspace (one end of the corridor to the other and then exit)... and (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) just made the Lucifer still because it's easier to hit when it's not moving? Or do ships not have to travel, but just wait for the jump drives to recharge?
Joe.
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www.joek.com ("http://www.joek.com/")
Revelations: A FS2 Campaign ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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no. I've read about how subsape works, explained by Adam fletcher I think. In fact your sucked from one point to the other, whatever you do you can't avoid reaching the other end, and it's very fast (as you can see by watching the subspace corridor). That's one of the reasons I think Derelict was, hem... bah.
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Originally posted by Jabu:
Hiya Culloden, haven't seen you around in quite a while.
Nice to see you too Jabu.
I've been busy (and on holiday) so I haven't been around much for the past couple of months. T'is good to be back though. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by venom2506:
no. I've read about how subsape works, explained by Adam fletcher I think. In fact your sucked from one point to the other, whatever you do you can't avoid reaching the other end, and it's very fast (as you can see by watching the subspace corridor). That's one of the reasons I think Derelict was, hem... bah.
He's Adam Pletcher. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
That's interesting. Subspace is really... confusing.
Oh, and from subspace - how does it look if someone transitions from real space into subspace? I mean - it shouldn't look the same as a normal jump-in ani, right?
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Originally posted by venom2506:
whatever you do you can't avoid reaching the other end, and it's very fast (as you can see by watching the subspace corridor). That's one of the reasons I think Derelict was, hem... bah.
Hem...bah? Is this code for "wrong" or "not very good" or something? Because in the only subspace mission that we did, all the ships got to the end - except the Nyarlathotep.
Based on what has been said in the thread, could being trapped in limbo not be one of the possible outcomes of a massive power failure on board a vessel sustaining its own subspace corridor? The corridor collapses, but where does the ship end up? Does it return to normal space at a point in between destinations corresponding to however 'far along' it was in its transit? Or does it fall out of its subspace corridor and into a more general subspace as a plane of existence?
Besides, I will hide behind the idea that Eishtmo evidently thinks that ships can get 'lost' in subspace (because that was the fate of his pre-FS1 campaign's destroyer) and he's good at thinking up universes and stuff. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/spineyes.gif)
And if you try to defy me, I will have to do this: (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/hammer.gif)
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Originally posted by Kellan:
Hem...bah? Is this code for "wrong" or "not very good" or something? Because in the only subspace mission that we did, all the ships got to the end - except the Nyarlathotep.
Based on what has been said in the thread, could being trapped in limbo not be one of the possible outcomes of a massive power failure on board a vessel sustaining its own subspace corridor? The corridor collapses, but where does the ship end up? Does it return to normal space at a point in between destinations corresponding to however 'far along' it was in its transit? Or does it fall out of its subspace corridor and into a more general subspace as a plane of existence?
Besides, I will hide behind the idea that Eishtmo evidently thinks that ships can get 'lost' in subspace (because that was the fate of his pre-FS1 campaign's destroyer) and he's good at thinking up universes and stuff. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/spineyes.gif)
And if you try to defy me, I will have to do this: (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/hammer.gif)
yeah I try (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/devil.gif)
No, ok, I explained myself in a wrong way. For instance Derelict is the only user made campaign I have finished for now. there's just things in the plot I don't like.
For instance we know that a ship can remain in subspace as long as its drive vibrates (?) on the same frequence has the dimension of subsace it entered. if the drive is turned off, it will be ejected out of subspace (heh, that gives me an idea (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) ). And if we take that shivans have other ways to remain in subspace (that could be very possible, after all), the derelict ship would still be sucked by the corridor, and there's no way it could be find on the same place after some hours, especially regarding to the fact that subspace is, after all, very different that our real space, multidimensional and so on. If the corridor itself collapses, I think the ship is just crushed by insane amounts of power. Actually I think it is what happened with the original Lucifer. When 3 out of 5 engines were destroyed, the Luci was not able to sustain the corridor, which collapsed on the Luci while it jumped into sol. Note that you destroyed two engines before the destruction of the ship happens. So I doubt it's the explosion resulmting from those destructions that led to the collapsing of the node. This is also proved (well I think it is) by the fact that it's still in one piece when it jumps out (herc and ursa fly by plan of the luci). It is cut exactly at the node point, so I think the node closed itself, which just cut the ship in two parts, provoquing its destruction and the destruction of the node or at least turned it too unstable for use.
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Or does it fall out of its subspace corridor and into a more general subspace as a plane of existence?
Besides, I will hide behind the idea that Eishtmo evidently thinks that ships can get 'lost' in subspace (because that was the fate of his pre-FS1 campaign's destroyer) and he's good at thinking up universes and stuff.
Well within The Babel Effect there is a sequence within sub-space which does become quite frantic, but also lives up to the rules so far seen of sub-space set by Volition.
On Setekh's asking of "what's it like at the end of the jump?" Overall we can assume that you enter "the light" some particle type effects occur (looks like moving through bright water) and then you're in the corridor, or in normal space.
Now a good question is whether when a ship's corridor is destroyed, does it enter a "larger" sub-space or is it dropped into truespace.
If a ship is lost into true N-dimensional space... it would probably never return.
I believe that Killjoy or someone with the early FSURP theorized that the glows at each end, and the turbulence effects are due to the fact that a sub-space corridor is a 3 dimensional corridor of real space, and the glows are an annihilation effect which destroys ships not going at a proper velocity for their mass. (capital ships are "sucked" and "spat" out, while fighters and small ships must for 42m/s)
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Originally posted by Ace:
On Setekh's asking of "what's it like at the end of the jump?" Overall we can assume that you enter "the light" some particle type effects occur (looks like moving through bright water) and then you're in the corridor, or in normal space.
That's not exactly what I meant - I meant the transition from real space into subspace from within subspace. Okay, say we were watching from the Lucifer in subspace headed towards Sol - and then suddenly all these GTA fighters and bombers entered the subspace corridor. What would that 'entering' be like? In terms of appearance, again.
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Probably exactly like how I explained the exiting, you enter the flare effect, some particles and ripples (we see in the cutscene nodes some ripple effects at the edge of the light areas as well as particle streams) then you clear it into the corridor.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Not from our POV. From someone else's. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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What do you mean by someone else's? In normal space it looks just like it does in FS, the ship goes into the light (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
In sub-space, you'd emerge from the light at the end of the corridors... we see the fighters at the end of the FS1 cutscene doing so.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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heres my theory.
The universe is like a ball of string.
unwound the ball of string is very long "normal space"
but scrunch it all together so the sides are touching and the distance from one end to another can be crossed by moveing over the sides, which are very cloce together.
"subspace" so subspace is the 4th dimention.
[This message has been edited by Fozzy (edited 09-24-2001).]
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Originally posted by Fozzy:
heres my theory.
The universe is like a ball of string.
unwound the ball of string is very long "normal space"
but scrunch it all together so the sides are touching and the distance from one end to another can be crossed by moveing over the sides, which are very cloce together.
"subspace" so subspace is the 4th dimention.
[This message has been edited by Fozzy (edited 09-24-2001).]
I already heard that before.
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The way I see it- the Universe is like a dead cat. The fleas are stars, and a lot of them are dead too- nothing to eat. There are also lots of hairy parts and some stuff that is just plain nasty. And the garbageman cleans it up on Tuesday.
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If it is true that a ship that loses it's subspace capability while in transit gets thrown into truespace, then the consequences would be bleak to say the least. The distances between stars and star systems are vast, and since all known GTVA vessels lack a faster-than-light "warp drive" kind of intersystem transportation mechanism, the ship in question would be stranded and pretty much outta luck. Unless, of course, it had a way of repairing it's subspace drive and "tapping" back into the intersystem corridor. Assuming that's even possible.