Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kie99 on February 01, 2005, 12:43:58 pm
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Browsing the forum I saw the thread about the German woman forced to sell her body, and that got onto the EU. I then had a mad urge to start this thread so:
Should GB stay in the EU?
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For my option, I'd add a "Britain should pull its collective head out of its collective ass and see what a third world country it has become, then work damn hard to make some changes".
Unfortunately that's not part of the poll.
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
For my option, I'd add a "Britain should pull its collective head out of its collective ass and see what a third world country it has become, then work damn hard to make some changes".
Unfortunately that's not part of the poll.
That plus a "No" vote is my answer.
When the dust settles in a few years time we could really catch everyone off guard and do something spectacular. Unfortunately we have incompetents like Blair and Howard as possible leaders.
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As a European, I truly wouldn't give a single **** if they left the EU. But the again, I wouldn't give a **** if the EU was dissolved and made way for competent organization and a true united Europe.
...not that thats ever gonna happen :p
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*giggles at the funny Euros*
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I'm not any expert on the subject, and I'm not from the U.K either, but EU would work better IMO if it was a trade-agreement union.
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Well, financially and politically, we've never really been any more motivated towards joining the EU than most of it's other members.
As for the thread about the women forced to sell their bodies, I think it was more along the lines of women being told that, since prostitution was now legal, they had to attend interviews for it or lose benefits. I think it was the stance of one small minded individual, and like most silly laws like this, will get fixed soon.
That said, Europe is the way to go, just not via the EU, that's sort of like a mini-UN wannabe, we need something a little less Ego-centred.
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I think the whole thing was originally a good idea, back when it was the EEC. The EC was still acceptible, but now that it's evolved into the EU I just feel they're taken things too far.
What started off as a trade-agreement has now become a massive political 'thingy'. They say they want to 'stream-line' everything, but from my PoV the direction it's headed in will eventually end up with one giant country called Europe where all the current borders will just deliniate 'States'.
And that scares the **** out of me.
Having such a small group with such far reaching power over so many countries worries me - Historically, we (As in The Human Race) have been better when operating in small groups - As the groups get larger, more unwieldy and complicated, they inevitably become more and more inefficient as pointless infighting about trivialities sets in, corruption becomes rife and nothing good gets done because things just get set in and direction is lost behind rhetoric.
What we need is to be invaded by aliens. That'd shake things up!
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I want the UK to stay in the EU. Wouldn't objct to introducing the euro, either.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I want the UK to stay in the EU. Wouldn't objct to introducing the euro, either.
But then the EU Bank would control interest, not the Bank of England. Look what good that has done to Germany and Ireland.
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The UK joining the EU would lift the Euro out of it's current slump, but what concerns me is what happens after that. Will it be a 'quick fix' or a long term repair. At the moment, I'm not confident enough in the whole thing to take that risk.
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We are in the EU as far as I know... just not signed up to the Euro...
http://www.eurunion.org/states/home.htm
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Heh, ok, the UK Financially joining the EU would lift the Euro out of it's current slump :p
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There's a lot of opposition to losing the Pound, especially from the older generation. I don't think it would bother me that much though...
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It's amazing, the british are far less integrated than other countries and still feel unhappy about that. ;)
Though, you may find it interesting that article I-59 of the upcoming constitutional treaty enables member states to (legally) leave the EU. This option does not exist, so far. The question if it's practically possible remains to be answered...
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As an American citizen, I'm in favor of Europe being at least slightly more united, so American politicians can have something that would help block them from being such incompetent idiots when messing with foreign affairs.
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Well we've always been a proud nation I guess, and it's nice having the most highest value currency in the world :D
We value our (illusion?) of relative independence, and many people here would oppose any compromises with regard to that independence.
TBH I still don't understand the reason behind the EEC's evolution into the EU. What is the goal?? Why all the merging and integration?
So now we have a fledgling single currency. What's next, a standard language? Will they force everyone to learn English or Esperanto or something?
We're all made to drive on the right/left?
Same taxes, school system, law blah blah blah.
Yay. We can be the United States of Europe. Ooh ooh, and then we can make the Earth Community Union! And everyone on earth has to speak English! Currency will be the Eurdollyen! We will turn entire countries into giant farms and factories!
I suppose from a certain point of view, it's inevitable - After all, every single future fiction I've seen has had a unified currency - Be it Zenny, C-Bills or the ubiquitous Credit - And everyone speaks English. Heck, even alien races we've never met before speak English!
Man, future looks bleak from this angle. I preferred the one with beam cannons...
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I tend to think that steps toward greater global unification are a good thing.
That said, I don't know much about the workings of the European Union.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
But then the EU Bank would control interest, not the Bank of England. Look what good that has done to Germany and Ireland.
Umm, our economys one of the best in europe...
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Will they force everyone to learn English
All students here already have to learn that from the sixth grade on. I thought that was pretty much a standard course.
I graduated with an A+ for that course so... :p Many others did as well, btw. English is pretty much a second language in Holland. Even many of the elderly know some English (which I find pretty awesome since most elderly people I've met in foreign countries tend to be very stuck up about that and simply refuse to learn it).
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The EU is the best thing that could have happened.
We are finally settling down the old nationalist rivalities and start working on a vision about sharing our common values and gather strenght by them.
Also, the Euro forced previously lousy managed economies (Italy, Greece, Portugal, Spain) to run within stricter parameters, making them much more stable than before.
Maybe we will loose some national(istic) values but it still think everyone has much to gain from it.
You may also notice that EU acts as development catalyst for the poorer areas thanks to well placed incentives.
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Originally posted by Gank
Umm, our economys one of the best in europe...
Point is, the German economy need (or t least, needed) low interest rates to stimulate their economy whereas Ireland (I believe) need higher rates to curb inflation.
My info is probably out of date but the point is still valid.
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Gotcha. Inflation is a bit of a gyp here alright.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/21/business/ecb.html
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Originally posted by Cyker
Well we've always been a proud nation I guess, and it's nice having the most highest value currency in the world :D
We value our (illusion?) of relative independence, and many people here would oppose any compromises with regard to that independence.
TBH I still don't understand the reason behind the EEC's evolution into the EU. What is the goal?? Why all the merging and integration?
So now we have a fledgling single currency. What's next, a standard language? Will they force everyone to learn English or Esperanto or something?
We're all made to drive on the right/left?
Same taxes, school system, law blah blah blah.
Yay. We can be the United States of Europe. Ooh ooh, and then we can make the Earth Community Union! And everyone on earth has to speak English! Currency will be the Eurdollyen! We will turn entire countries into giant farms and factories!
I suppose from a certain point of view, it's inevitable - After all, every single future fiction I've seen has had a unified currency - Be it Zenny, C-Bills or the ubiquitous Credit - And everyone speaks English. Heck, even alien races we've never met before speak English!
Man, future looks bleak from this angle. I preferred the one with beam cannons...
The name, The United States of Europe was actually suggested for the EU IIRC
I do not want to be ruled by some faceless guy in europe that I do not democraticially elect, and I fail to see how the EU can operate as a single entity, we speak different languages have different cultures and mostly can't agree with each other about anything apart from disagreeing!
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And that makes you different from the Unites States of America in what way?
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You can elect members of Euro-Parliament for your own country, but have no say in who other countries elect. Similar, in a way to the US State-based election, or the UK borough-based elections. Each country puts forward it's own representative. However, there, afaik, is where the publics hand in the EU stops. From then on, they are self-structured, which is not a good idea. You get situations similar to the UN, where they elect Iraq to be in charge of Human Rights. That's not something the people would have done, it takes being as deranged as a politician to reach that level of hyprocrisy :(
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well, not that much, but at least the USA has a process to rig...
AFAIK each country gets a shot at being president of the EU for like 6 months.
To be honest, I don't really care how it works. I just want to be ruled by my elected goverment, where I have the chance every few years to elect someone else. If there is not much of a choice between the major parties and I don't feel they can represent my properly I do have the chance to elect a party like the pink panthers or the raving lunatics or the UK Independence Party, who cares, so long as I do get a choice.
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Originally posted by Freyr
The name, The United States of Europe was actually suggested for the EU IIRC
That may have been suggested here and there, but it's never really been up for a decision. The term of the "USE" has basically been used as a means of scaring folks. "Look, it's the big, bad EU, they're forcing us to unite." :doubt:
I do not want to be ruled by some faceless guy in europe that I do not democraticially elect, ...
Now, who's that guy that rules Europe? I don't know it, so please enlighten me. I only know of several EU institutions; the council, which consists of the heads of the national governments. The parliament, which is elected through direct elections. The commission, which is suggested by the council and elected by the parliament.
and I fail to see how the EU can operate as a single entity, we speak different languages have different cultures and mostly can't agree with each other about anything apart from disagreeing!
There is a very important aspect you missed. The people across Europe may not speak the same languages, have the same history or share the same culture, but they sure share certain values. Some may deny that, but that's what distinguishes "Europe". The EU has been called a "Union of values" for a reason.
(By the way, the aspect of the common values becomes very interesting when looking at that Turkey debate. But that's another topic.)
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Originally posted by Roanoke
Point is, the German economy need (or t least, needed) low interest rates to stimulate their economy whereas Ireland (I believe) need higher rates to curb inflation.
My info is probably out of date but the point is still valid.
To be fair, Germany itself is somewhat of a unique case due to the reunification of the East and West.
Althoughb IIRC the 1999-2003 German 'real' interest rate was 0.7% compared to about 2.3% for the Uk. I believe the German and Irish economic growth over that period was higher than that of the Uks, too. I think that the euro states saw their inter-european trade increase whilst the UKs trade (with Euro-using countries) declined.
EDIT;
Of course, my main reason for liking the euro is not having to change money to go abroad. That and I'm sick of London cashiers taking an eternity to check and recheck my money everytime I pay with a scottish banknote*
*which technically isn't even legal tender in England
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Yeah, that really annoys me as well Aldo, whenever I go up to visit Glasgow, I usually end up with a few Scottish notes in my pocket. Strictly speaking, they ARE legal tender in the UK, it's just that most Shop-owners are stupid, and they have the last say as to whether they make a sale or not.
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Did it ever occur to anyone that diversity and individual nations are actually a good thing because competition & ambition drives change and progess?
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
And that makes you different from the Unites States of America in what way?
:lol:
Only the people that aren't supposed to be here don't speak a dialect of English.
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I wonder if the states of the USA will ever join together under one set of common laws and taxes?
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umm...they are...it called the Federal Government
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Originally posted by vyper
Did it ever occur to anyone that diversity and individual nations are actually a good thing because competition & ambition drives change and progess?
yes, yes it has. I'm actually in favour of having a national identify or whatever. Though the thing with Canada is that diversity IS the national identity. Its not like most of the rest of the world, where there is a traditional culture.
And while I don't think that its avoidable up to a point, my guess is that national identity will remain more or less intact, and as economic conditions improve in certain parts of the world, there will be a lesser urge to move to wherever,
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We may be officially united under the Federal government, but in reality, the laws are quite a bit different from state to state. For example, New York has incredibly high taxes, much of which go to social programs. At the same time, Texas has virtually no taxes, and no social programs. Not very similar at all.
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National identity is crap, but humanity won't abandon it; it goes against the grain.
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Well, it's always been a question of 'Our Tribe' and 'Their Tribe'. Once a Tribe gets big enough, it is subdivided into sub-Tribes (States/Boroughs/Regions etc). You'll even find little rivalries and differences developing between the sub-Tribes.
We are at a precarious position really, a Global Culture with a Tribal Mentality. I think the next few generations are going to have to take up the task of learning to think of everyone as 'Our Tribe'. That won't be easy, but it really is, in my opinon, the making or breaking of mankind.
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Well, maybe I'm a backwards, arrogant American who doesn't understand the cultural workings of Europe, but I have a question to those of you from countries that have joined the EU: doesn't it bother you to give up part of your own national sovereignty to a larger unit? Doesn't it harm some sense of nationalism to know that, to a certain extent, your country is being controlled by people elected from other countries? (I'm not referring to any actual political control, just to the extent of the authority that the EU does have, of which I'm not really well-informed.) Some of your nations have been around in some form for hundreds, even thousands of years. Yet you would give up this tradition so easily and relinquish authority to a different body? I guess I'm just not thinking in the same way.
I guess the thing that really gets me is the Euro. To me, as an American, the American dollar is a symbol of our nation. It has our national symbols, monuments, and great presidents/leaders on it. More than that, however, in a certain stance, it stands for our country. Take a look at Greece, for instance. The drachma was in use for thousands of years, and yet they gave it up for the Euro. How was this done so lightly? At least to me, the drachma is a symbol of Greek culture, as is the yen for Japan and the pound for England. Maybe that's just a different, American perspective; maybe it's wrong; I don't know. Hearing that Kofi Annan supports a form of global currency, however, makes me even more distrustful of him.
What I do know, however, is that, while I'm alive, I don't ever want to see any global/hemispherical currency replace my dollars. More importantly and vitally, I don't want to see any organization of any kind supercede its authority over that of the United States Constitution. "Over my dead body" has come to my mind; it may seem strange, but that's honestly the way I feel. I don't want any form of global government, and I don't want anything interfering with United States sovereignty, either in the next ten years or in the next one hundred.
I'm sorry to intrude on this thread, but I'd like to hear a different view of the matter from some of the European members, in order to get an idea in what way my opinions differ from those in other parts of the world.
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Just for the sake of argument, though: The United States Constitution is an incredible document, but it's not incredible because it's "The Constitution", it's incredible because of what it upholds. What if a hypothetical world government were built on a constitution that was identical to that of the United States? What would be wrong with that?
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The Yen doesn't date back that far (134 years). For that matter, neither does the modern Drachma (173 years), the Mark (134 years), or even the Dollar (U.S.) (220 years).
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the EU was built mostly out of ecconomic nesesity, the euro thing, think of it like this, the average European country is the size of the average US state (roughly speaking) think about how inconvenient it would be if every time you crossed the border to another state you had to convert the cash you had on hand to the local economy to a diferent exchange rate that changed dayly? you would soon be thinking "we should all just agree on a common currency". also the current culture of most European nations is more or less the same, yes there are diferences, but overall when you look at the rest of the world the diferences within all of Europe, asside from some local traditions, is prety much the same, at the very least nobody is incompatable with anyone else (asside from maybe the language). and one last thing to consiter, power, as a loose colection of independent nations Europe has a lot less influence over the rest of the world, now I as an American, have no problem with there being one less rival, but think about it if you were over there HATED what we were doing and wanted to have some power over it woldn't you want to unite with your negbors? now I think the people who say "Europe needs to unit to fight the evil Americans" are idiots and probly being used, but it is a valid point to consiter. most of the current generation see's themselves more as 'citizens of the world' than there little corner of it.
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We managed fine changing money before hand. We could manage fine now.
This is superstate preparation, nothing less.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
Well, maybe I'm a backwards, arrogant American who doesn't understand the cultural workings of Europe, but I have a question to those of you from countries that have joined the EU: doesn't it bother you to give up part of your own national sovereignty to a larger unit? Doesn't it harm some sense of nationalism to know that, to a certain extent, your country is being controlled by people elected from other countries? (I'm not referring to any actual political control, just to the extent of the authority that the EU does have, of which I'm not really well-informed.) Some of your nations have been around in some form for hundreds, even thousands of years. Yet you would give up this tradition so easily and relinquish authority to a different body? I guess I'm just not thinking in the same way.
I guess the thing that really gets me is the Euro. To me, as an American, the American dollar is a symbol of our nation. It has our national symbols, monuments, and great presidents/leaders on it. More than that, however, in a certain stance, it stands for our country. Take a look at Greece, for instance. The drachma was in use for thousands of years, and yet they gave it up for the Euro. How was this done so lightly? At least to me, the drachma is a symbol of Greek culture, as is the yen for Japan and the pound for England. Maybe that's just a different, American perspective; maybe it's wrong; I don't know. Hearing that Kofi Annan supports a form of global currency, however, makes me even more distrustful of him.
What I do know, however, is that, while I'm alive, I don't ever want to see any global/hemispherical currency replace my dollars. More importantly and vitally, I don't want to see any organization of any kind supercede its authority over that of the United States Constitution. "Over my dead body" has come to my mind; it may seem strange, but that's honestly the way I feel. I don't want any form of global government, and I don't want anything interfering with United States sovereignty, either in the next ten years or in the next one hundred.
I'm sorry to intrude on this thread, but I'd like to hear a different view of the matter from some of the European members, in order to get an idea in what way my opinions differ from those in other parts of the world.
Its nearly 1300 years for the pound by my understanding.
no, this is one of the times where someone from the other side of the world is thinking in exactly the same way as a lot of people over here.
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I may be speaking only for myself here, but I have to say the currency is no more a symbol of a culture than say... $19.99 is the symbol for FreeSpace, or a similar case. It mearly represents an economic power, nothing more, so changing it to suit the needs of a country (or in this case many) doesn't bother. Of course I may be biased as I didn't want to have to buy stuff with a currency 200 times lower than the Euro. :blah:
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Originally posted by vyper
This is superstate preparation, nothing less.
Absolutely, which is why you guys need to get out of it.
I actually heard that one of the high mucky-mucks behind the EU that it was nothing but a front to provide the US with an economic opponent so we wouldn't run around doing stuff, like begin the wholesale disoloution of the horrific dictatorships in the Middle East.
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Well, not so much but it did serve in that function for a while.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a unified trading group that shares common goals. However, I also like the idea of my country steering it's own course. :)
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Originally posted by Liberator
Absolutely, which is why you guys need to get out of it.
I actually heard that one of the high mucky-mucks behind the EU that it was nothing but a front to provide the US with an economic opponent so we wouldn't run around doing stuff, like begin the wholesale disoloution of the horrific dictatorships in the Middle East.
I've only one thing to say. The EU doesn't support dictatorship anymore than the US does. Make what you want of this, but I'm tired of trying to convince people that the world is not in black and white, like Lib still apparently believe.
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A lot of people do not know that the EU is rooted on the simple idea of ensuring peace in Europe by putting heavy industry and nuclear power under a central control. The national states failed in this matter, as the late 19th/early 20th century showed. The economic aim was added later on. I believe it's important to keep that in mind.
Thinking the EU was established just to oppose the US is short-minded. Regardless of the peacekeeping aspect, it aims for strengthening its member states' economies. The US had absolutely nothing to do with that in the beginning, though that has changed over the years. It's not that bad, either - world economy shouldn't rely on just one state.
As Genyru said, there's no black/white.
Concerning the loss of national identity - well, I'm not missing anything. The particular reason is that any national identity has been purged from my country after losing two world wars, which is the reason why I feel rather "european" than "german". So, I sometimes have trouble understanding the "fears" of, say, people from Britain. :)
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You have to understand that the UK or Britain is not a country, it's a kind of 'internal we hate each other' collective. The Scot hate the English, the English hate the Welsh, the Irish love everyone but want to fight them all as well. It's a mish-mash of opinions and prejudices going back many centuries.
Now, take a look at history - I'm not talking WW1 or 2, but further back:
England had wars in France, Scotland, Wales, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Canada, USA, India, Egypt, Suez, South Africa, Kenya, China etc. etc. Now, of course all those days are long gone, but there is a spark of xenophobia still lurking in the hearts of some people, and that will be hard to eradicate...
Example: I don't hate the French, but everybody in the office does, so what can you do? :rolleyes:
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Almost every country in Europe had wars with almost every country in Europe also and you don't see them getting at each other's guts... frequently at least. :D
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Yeah, but they are over the other side of the sea, so don't count...
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Originally posted by vyper
Did it ever occur to anyone that diversity and individual nations are actually a good thing because competition & ambition drives change and progess?
and did it ever occur to you that the EU isn't removing the diversity and individuality of the member-states?
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Originally posted by Mongoose
doesn't it bother you to give up part of your own national sovereignty to a larger unit?
why should it?
Every country in the EU joined voluntarily.
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European leaders scream the rafters down about integration - UK politicians have spent decades assuring the situation was the opposite.
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Meh. On a legal level, it's true. Giving away competencies results in a certain loss of sovereignty. Thus the current situation is often called a system of "split souvereignty". Though, it's debatable if its a loss in its original meaning or a reversible shift.
European public law is a very interesting subject. ;)
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Not when your mate tries explaining the CAP to you at 2am when you clearly already understand it but just don't see how if at all Britain benefits from it.
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CAP? Help me out, what do you mean?
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I'm not really bothered about "national identity" as such. I consider myself British, Welsh and European all at the same time. I'm proud to be British, and proud to be Welsh, and to some extent proud to be European, as I want to be part of all these cultures. I haven't got a huge attachment to Sterling, although it's good to know you have one of the world's strongest currencies (but then the Euro is pretty good as well, if not quite up to the pound's level yet).
That said, I don't like the EU in it's current form, as it's riddled with corruption, and nothing much gets done except an obscene amount of money gets pissed away with little to show for it. I would be in favour of greater integration as long as it improved the quality of life in the UK, and had no detrimental effects on people anywhere else.
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CAP = Common Agricultural Policy - essentially the EU buying surplus crops off farmers at the end of a season.
This led on to a discussion about the minimum required size of a carrot.
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Bah, britains always been half in half out of the EU/EC/ECC, they dont want anyone else dictating policy to them but they also dont want to be left out when it comes to deciding what policys are going to affect europe. Its a sort of We dont want to be part but we're ****ed if we're going to let the frogs and krauts tell everyone else what to do attitude.
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Pretty much.
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frogs?
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Frenchmen, they got the name from their tendancy to eat frogs legs. Kraut is german for cabbage iirc. Derogatory terms used in england for their european compatriots.
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Originally posted by vyper
CAP = Common Agricultural Policy
Ah, okay. I was not aware of that english abreviation.
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Some interesting responses. What I really wanted to do was to get some actual first-hand accounts of people's feelings about the whole issue, and it's worked out very well. :) Being "across the pond," as it were, I really don't get a whole lot of info about the EU's actual structure/policies/extent of powers, so it's nice to learn something.
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
why should it?
Every country in the EU joined voluntarily.
Yes, I know you joined voluntarily, but what I don't understand is why you joined at all. Even voluntarily, why does giving up part of your nation's self-determination not bother you in the least? I'm just curious. As I said, this is my opinion based on absolutely no experience, but based on what Freyr said at least, it seems as if at least some people in Europe share my opinion.
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Actually, the UK was tricked into it more or less ;)
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Originally posted by Gank
Frenchmen, they got the name from their tendancy to eat frogs legs. Kraut is german for cabbage iirc. Derogatory terms used in england Britain for their european compatriots.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
Yes, I know you joined voluntarily, but what I don't understand is why you joined at all. Even voluntarily, why does giving up part of your nation's self-determination not bother you in the least? I'm just curious. As I said, this is my opinion based on absolutely no experience, but based on what Freyr said at least, it seems as if at least some people in Europe share my opinion.
The real purpose of the EU is and should be to provide a 'block' to the US in particular; i.e. to allow the small countries to work together. I'm not for political integration (i.e. the super-state), but i don't have anything against economic co-operation. In terms of the euro/pound, of course, it's worth noting that a great deal of control over the pound comes from an unelected body anyways (Bank of England).
So there's a degree of trade-off that comes with the co-operation required to wield that economic power; the EU is itself run by publicly-elected MEPs, of course (even if that running needs revisal).
And, of course, there's always the option to withdraw fully....
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I think a lot of the opposition to the pound joining the Euro stems from Black Wednesday.
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This thread is only the second time I've heard the term "Frog" used for Frenchmen, the first being while reading Lieutenant Horatio Hornblower.
EDIT: Seems I lied. Turns out it was also in the HLP front page, way back in August 2001.
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
This thread is only the second time I've heard the term "Frog" used for Frenchmen, the first being while reading Lieutenant Horatio Hornblower.
I think it's more an English (i.e. as in nationality) thing; I'm not sure about the Welsh, but Scotland has a good historical relationship with the French (Auld Alliance), whereas the English went to war frequently with them.
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quote:Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
This thread is only the second time I've heard the term "Frog" used for Frenchmen, the first being while reading Lieutenant Horatio Hornblower.
I think it's more an English (i.e. as in nationality) thing; I'm not sure about the Welsh, but Scotland has a good historical relationship with the French (Auld Alliance), whereas the English went to war frequently with them.
And the last time we went to war with them was probably the last time it was used, because I haven't heard it used outside a historical setting.
Likewise with "Kraut" or "Jerry", in the same way as the germans don't refer to us as "Tommy"
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Doesn;t the english tabloid media use 'frogs' and 'kruats' quite a lot?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Doesn;t the english tabloid media use 'frogs' and 'kruats' quite a lot?
Depends if they are angry at them or if we've cooperated with them on something.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I think it's more an English (i.e. as in nationality) thing; I'm not sure about the Welsh, but Scotland has a good historical relationship with the French (Auld Alliance), whereas the English went to war frequently with them.
We tend to just use the term "f**king French bastards" instead... ;)
Nah, it's an English thing. I'm not aware of any big things between Wales and France - though we weren't really around as states together (Wales hasn't been a sovereign state for the best part of a thousand years) We were never really at war with anyone except the English, to be honest.
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Everyone has been at war with the English at some point I'm sure, for some reason, that fills me with pride.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I think it's more an English (i.e. as in nationality) thing; I'm not sure about the Welsh, but Scotland has a good historical relationship with the French (Auld Alliance), whereas the English went to war frequently with them.
Are you forgetting how they supported us in the independence wars but ****ed off a while later?
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The Euro referundum in the late 60s (?) was effectively won by the Government convincing the populus that it was ONLY about trade. The great British acloholism cant argue with slogons like "All the cheap wine you want from Calais!". So there is a certain level of truth to the 'tricked' into it argument. Plus the French really drove the European project at a pace much faster then it should have been in its formative years thanks to the Gaulists drive to maintain France as a world power (via the EU).
So what weve got is a large beurocratic organisation which is distinctly (well traditionally pre WW2) unBritish built on a legal system and mind set at odds to Common Law. The EU legal system which has premacy over UK law is effectively incompatible with the UK system. The reason you dont see "loony EU law!!" headlines in European papers is because they dont just ignore them, the laws compliment their current system of "this is what you can do" as opposed to the UK system of this is what you cant.
The British have the best record of implementation of EU laws since 2002 even though they have less policy creation power than the French or Germans. Which is frankly insane, the civil service just gold plates the ****ing things as soon as they are passed with little or no regard to how they will effect the country proper.
In my opinion there is a role for a non federal supra national organisation but it needs to be reset to remove the nasty bits, its just such a beaurocratic malaise at the moment.
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Originally posted by vyper
Are you forgetting how they supported us in the independence wars but ****ed off a while later?
I was thinking of the (reason leading to the) Battle of Flodden, actually.
After all, until just over a century ago Scots held the same rights as French nationals under French law.
Plus the French are really good at beating the english in the 5 (6) nations and at footie (like the Germans), and they didn't bomb Clydebank (unlike the Germans).
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Well said. It needed openness from the word go, else no-one is going to trust it, and without using Force, no form of governance works without trust.
The way my parents describe the British entry into the EU is 'One minute they were considering it, next thing anyone knew, they'd joined'. Not a good way to get the publics trust there.
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hehehe Well, let's face it, the French have plenty of reasons not to like the Welsh in History, the word 'Longbow' comes to mind ;)
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And might I point out CAP exists because the Germans wanted a free market for heavy industry - which their economy relied on heavily, and the French (who relied heavily on Agriculture) wanted a balance for that powerful market being handed to the Germans - and thus we all got CAPped.
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https://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2879
"German Unemployment Hits 70-Year High"
That euro sure must be fun.
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German unemployment hasn't been higher since just before Hitler came to power. So it says in the paper.
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vyper, unemployment in Germany has been rising longer than they have had the Euro, your point?
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My point is it hasn't helped.
So if it doesn't help, and my economy is already doing better anyway... why the **** should Britain join/
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I would have assumed the benefits of a common currency would be much more long term than just 5 years, but...
Those countries who did not join the Euro are free to do so, it's not like anyone's forcing them to join or something (or are they? :nervous: ).
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Flexability is always more important than size in a currency, something the world seemed to forget when a bunch of nations adopted the dollar as backing.
Long term the pound has been fantastic, theres no reason to get rid of something that works better than the thing you want to replace it with.
as for forcing you to join the Euro, Germany and France were 'forced' per say because it was not a democratic choice, the German opinion polls gave it only 40% support upon launch. France also enjoys using it as bragaining in EU negotiations against Britain (you should read the minutes Chirac really is a viscious ****ebag in them).
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Carrot, where you get those minutes?