Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The FRED Workshop => FRED Academy => Topic started by: Cobra on February 02, 2005, 09:44:35 pm

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 02, 2005, 09:44:35 pm

Here's mission 9 of campaign 2. i looked through it, but i don't see any bugs. report as necessary. Campaign 2 Mission 9 (http://www.geocities.com/dickerson_dj/C2M9v1.8)

[EDIT] This link has been updated. This is the latest version of the mission.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 03, 2005, 09:02:22 am

I will test this as soon as I finish testing for freespacegundam.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 03, 2005, 09:59:42 am

TEST RESULTS:
Number of test runs: 1

• The mission was untitled
• There is no period[.] at the end of briefing stage 1 and a comma is missing at 'All right, pilots'
  
• I had all the ships and weapons available, even the Terran Mara or the dogfight weapons. Furthermore, Alpha were armed with the default weapons while Kaysers were available.
• There was no primary objective(SHIFT-G)
• The player can give orders to all ships, untick the Player Orders for all ships except for Alpha wingmen
• There was no 'Return to base' or 'Follow Juluis to the node' directive.
• There was no debriefing
• I received some weird messages saying to go back to defend the civilians after the Julius jumped out.
• I don't know if I was simply unlucky, but all three wingmen of mine died in 2 seconds after the first wave of Shivans arrived
• The pilots still sent messages after they had died. Do not use High priority for messages that wingmen send or they will be sent as 'Command'

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 10:31:53 am

OK. Rundown.

1-5: OH CRAP. I forgot. OK, I'm gonna fix that.
6: uhm,

Spoiler:

when the GTCv Julius jumps out, look at the message

7: er,

Spoiler:

this mission goes into a red alert.

8: That I don't know about, i'll have to take a look.
9: Yes, you were unlucky.
10: I'm still trying to work on that problem. What should I set it on?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 03, 2005, 11:18:18 am

Quote

Originally posted by Cobra
OK. Rundown.

1-5: OH CRAP. I forgot. OK, I'm gonna fix that.
6: uhm,

Spoiler:

when the GTCv Julius jumps out, look at the message

I am talking about Directives, not messages
7: er,

Spoiler:

this mission goes into a red alert.

It did not start the red-alert sequence to me. I will have to look it into FRED.
8: That I don't know about, i'll have to take a look.
9: Yes, you were unlucky.
10: I'm still trying to work on that problem. What should I set it on?
Mediun or Low [/B]

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 12:03:22 pm

yes. the mission ends in a red alert.

D'OH! I'm fixing the escort list now.

I don't get the "level off gridlines" thing.

Non-use of the Y-axis is a habit of mine.

[EDIT] Er, I meant the mission ends in a red alert, TopAce. I was thinking of the next mission.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 12:30:49 pm

K. I've update the mission. Update. (http://www.geocities.com/dickerson_dj/NewC2-9.zip)

Now I just need to learn how to end a mission on a Red Alert... and how to use the Y-axis :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 02:00:44 pm

I forgot to amend a few problems... M9 v1.3 (http://www.geocities.com/dickerson_dj/Downloads/C2-9-2.zip)(?)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 03, 2005, 02:11:31 pm

Now you post this. After I've just gone and played it! :D Fine I'll take a look at it in FRED. I spotted errors that the others missed/weren't there when they tried it :)

Back in a few mins

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 02:12:54 pm

re download the last link. it's been updated ;)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 03, 2005, 02:50:23 pm

Okay, first things first. I enjoyed playing the mission. It had lots of bugs but we'll teach you how to solve and avoid those. The art of how to make a fun mission is harder to teach and since you've scored highly there that's a lot less work for me :D

On to the bugs

• Umm. The mission takes place in Capella at the node TO Epsilon Pegasi not the other way around.
• It is possible to get messages from the Calypso and other terran craft that are dead. You should either check that the Calypso is alive (by replacing the true in event Complaint 1 with

Code: [Select]

not
-destroyed or departed delay
--0
--Calypso

An alternative is to set the message priority to low instead of high. IIRC messages with low priority aren't read out by command if the ship sending them is killed.)

• I was all set to complain about you making the Destroy Malice goal visible from the briefing when I noticed that you've made it a bonus goal. This is good. However leaving it as a secondary goal which was invalid at the start of the mission would probably have been better. If you don't know how to do that just post and I'll explain it.
• No AWOL debriefing! I really thought when I made up that list of common FRED mistakes I wouldn't have to say this one as often :rolleyes: :D At the moment there's nothing to stop the player jumping out at the start of the mission.
• The player can jump out anywhere on the map. Since he's supposed to jump out at the node you need to fix this so that the player can only jump out at the node. You use a pair of repeating never warp and allow warp events to do this. If you aren't sure check my FRED FAQ (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/fred2.html) as there is a more detailed explaination there. (as a side effect you can rig this so that the player can't jump out before the mission is complete, negating the need for an AWOL debrief).
  
  
• Don't use the SJ Sathanas in the background. They never appeared in those kinds of numbers anywhere near the nodes. You should also change the sun you've used to the one with the saths around it.

(For future reference you should never use the sathanas model like that anyway. Due to the need to have lots of Sathani on several missions [V] created the SJD sathanas model which looks like a sath when targetted but doesn't use as much of the computers resources).

• Is it possible to lose this mission in any way? I haven't checked but apart from dying is there any way to lose? If there is you really need a debriefing explaining why the player lost.

Anyway. That's all for now. Once you've changed the mission I'll give it another try.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 04:04:52 pm

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
Okay, first things first. I enjoyed playing the mission. It had lots of bugs but we'll teach you how to solve and avoid those. The art of how to make a fun mission is harder to teach and since you've scored highly there that's a lot less work for me :D

i scored highly? sweet.

On to the bugs

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
Umm. The mission takes place in Capella at the node TO Epsilon Pegasi not the other way around.

[/B]Fixed

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
It is possible to get messages from the Calypso and other terran craft that are dead. You should either check that the Calypso is alive (by replacing the true in event Complaint 1 with

Code: [Select]

not
-destroyed or departed delay
--0
--Calypso

An alternative is to set the message priority to low instead of high. IIRC messages with low priority aren't read out by command if the ship sending them is killed.) [/B]

[/B]Fixed

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
I was all set to complain about you making the Destroy Malice goal visible from the briefing when I noticed that you've made it a bonus goal. This is good. However leaving it as a secondary goal which was invalid at the start of the mission would probably have been better. If you don't know how to do that just post and I'll explain it.

[/B]No I don't :D

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
No AWOL debriefing! I really thought when I made up that list of common FRED mistakes I wouldn't have to say this one as often :rolleyes: :D At the moment there's nothing to stop the player jumping out at the start of the mission.

The player can jump out anywhere on the map. Since he's supposed to jump out at the node you need to fix this so that the player can only jump out at the node. You use a pair of repeating never warp and allow warp events to do this. If you aren't sure check my FRED FAQ (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/fred2.html) as there is a more detailed explaination there. (as a side effect you can rig this so that the player can't jump out before the mission is complete, negating the need for an AWOL debrief).

[/B]Working on that

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
Don't use the SJ Sathanas in the background. They never appeared in those kinds of numbers anywhere near the nodes. You should also change the sun you've used to the one with the saths around it.
(For future reference you should never use the sathanas model like that anyway. Due to the need to have lots of Sathani on several missions [V] created the SJD sathanas model which looks like a sath when targetted but doesn't use as much of the computers resources).

[/B]Well, there's a problem with using a sathsun on my FRED. I can never see the sathanai.

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
Is it possible to lose this mission in any way? I haven't checked but apart from dying is there any way to lose? If there is you really need a debriefing explaining why the player lost.

[/B]I'm not really sure how to do that. The mission is supposed to go into red alert. I don't know how to make it "I failed, i get debriefed.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 04:14:20 pm

er, now i can't find the sathsun. help?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Roanoke on February 03, 2005, 04:35:59 pm

That's some kick-ass feedback guys (TopAce, K, Mrs ShadowWolf) :yes:

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 03, 2005, 04:40:40 pm

In that case. Here's some more. :D  Actually an explaination of how invalid objectives work is the sort of thing that I should add to the FAQ so I'll answer it in that style so I can later just cut and paste it in :)

What is an invalid objective and how does that differ from a bonus objective?

When making objectives in the objective editor you may have noticed the little Objective Invaild tickbox and wondered what it does.  To explain let's take an example mission. Suppose you're FREDding a mission where you're going to destroy a Moloch corvette. When the mission starts however you find the Moloch taking on supplies from a Demon class destroyer. Command order you to ignore the moloch for now and concentrate on the demon. Now look at your objectives. Having the destruction of the moloch as a primary goal while the destruction of the demon is a bonus seems ludicrous. In addition to this the Destroy Demon objective will only appear on the objectives list after you have destroyed it.
 This is where invalid objectives come into their own. The game completely ignores the objective until an event using the validate-goal SEXP is triggered. After this the game treats the goal normally. So basically you've suddenly made a Destroy Demon primary goal appear as if by magic.
Goal validation doesn't end there though. Just as you can validate goals you can also invalidate them. For instance at the moment destroying the demon and the Moloch are both primary goals. If you fail to kill the Moloch you won't get the full victory music even though you did better than the mission briefing expected of you. What you can do in this case is use the invalidate-goal SEXP to make the Destroy Moloch goal invalid. The game will now ignore it.
 If you're really sneaky you can even have an invalid Destroy Moloch secondary goal as well as a primary one. Invalidating the primary while making the secondary valid will make it look like the Moloch's destruction has changed from being a primary goal to being a secondary one.

It's worth noting that bonus goals can also be invalid too. You could have a Destroy Cain bonus which only becomes valid once the Moloch and Demon are gone


As for the debriefing. Just make a debriefing stage that triggers if the Julius is killed. A red alert mission doesn't mean no briefing. It means no briefing on a successful ending. If you fail the mission you should still get a normal debriefing.

Finally what's this about Sunsath not working on your copy of FRED? Remember you choose it from the bitmap list not the sun list (strangely enough).

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 03, 2005, 05:37:17 pm

actually, there is no SunSath option...

teh invalid thing... niiiice.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 04, 2005, 05:06:12 am

Be sure you do not use a custom stars.tbl.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 04, 2005, 10:18:40 am

It's called SunSathanas01 - 03 and it's at the bottom of the bitmaps list in the background editor.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 04, 2005, 10:43:02 am

that's where i looked. nothing.

where's the custom stars.tbl?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 04, 2005, 10:44:01 am

Quote

Originally posted by Cobra

where's the custom stars.tbl?

Quote

Originally posted by TopAce
Be sure you do not use a custom stars.tbl.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 04, 2005, 11:07:45 am

... i think that was edited. :D the sunsath is not there/ :(

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 04, 2005, 11:16:23 am

Ok, if you have a stars.tbl in the data/tables folder, delete it or move it to somewhere else FS will not look for(to the root C:, for example)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 04, 2005, 11:28:25 am

Where are you looking for it Cobra?

(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/Misc-Pics/BackgroundEditor.jpg)

My pic is from FRED2_Open so your background editor will look slightly different.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 04, 2005, 11:30:21 am

FRED Retail has the mania that it wants the ships.tbl to list the stars alphabetically. If Cobra uses a stars.tbl which does not list the images alphabetically, he won't see much.

I don't know if this is fixed in FRED_O, but I find the stars.tbl guilty.

Cobra, if you do not have any stars.tbl in the data/tables, disregard what I told in the previous two posts.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 04, 2005, 11:58:37 am

the bitmap drop down. like you said.

FRED_2OPEN? i wish it could work on my PC.

nevermind, i got it working.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Singh on February 04, 2005, 09:12:09 pm

I only wish Karajoma would be this active when it came to testing in MG :P

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 04, 2005, 09:38:17 pm

lol. have you tried my mission, singh?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: willy_principal on February 04, 2005, 11:05:20 pm

Cobra...fredding?
...
...
...
i gotta see this...

no offense, just kidding...
hey! damn you...i got to download three different files to play your mission, now...i don't remember which was the latest...

try to keep a track of your updates in the first post of this thread (with the download links), and when you update the mission, post a new reply with the modifications you made and the download link...
i did so in my thread, and turned out to ease playtesters' work...

[edit] oh, also...try to use only one file, or at least use some naming convention...like fac2m9-Cobrav1 fac2m9-Cobrav2 fac2m9-Cobrav3...
Karajoma: wow, i really never saw you so...active. Get some work at Mind Games... ... ... i really wanna try that campaign...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 04, 2005, 11:34:31 pm

hey, willy. long time no see. download the first link. it's the latest version now.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 05, 2005, 10:46:37 am

Quote

Originally posted by Singh
I only wish Karajoma would be this active when it came to testing in MG :P

Are you waiting for me to test something? Bump the topic on the internal and I'll take a look. Bear in mind though that I'm not the only one who should be playtesting on the team :p

@WP : I'm more active cause I'm not the only person playtesting now. For some reason people have suddenly started helping out which means I can spend more time solving problems and less time writing up every single problem I see with the mission. :)

@Cobra : Have you finished making the modifications I suggested? If so I'll give it a try.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 05, 2005, 04:00:16 pm

i'm working on it, kara. I've done a little more, i've added a sunsath, etc...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 05, 2005, 05:13:11 pm

I'll wait until you're done then. No sense in checking a mission which you're likely to change anyway :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: willy_principal on February 05, 2005, 11:15:00 pm

[EDIT]the first link is the latest???... .... DAMN!!! i tested an old version! [EDIT]

well...i tested C2-9-2.zip (which i think i the latest version of your mission)
i gotta tell you that...i liked it, it's good. But not perfect...good in-mission chat, BTW.
however, i didn't liked these things:

most errors appointed by TopAce, are still there...errr....WTF??? (i'm receiving rare messages from Command)

the default weapons loadout sucks...
The available weapons are too many (rockeyes, for example)...or viceversa (tornados, for example)

the previous mission finished in Red Alert? or what...how could someone swap spacecrafts or change his weapons loadout right in the middle of space??? The Julius has no fighterbay, remeber?... this happened in many others campaign......................i never liked it...

the civilian convoy either jumps away from the node, or doesn't jumps....do not use wings for Lambda (i remember you made the same mistake in Pathways mission 1)...if you do, they can't jump...or they will jump simultaneosly...

i opened the mission and saw four Sathanas...now i understand why i got 10 Frames Per Second... use the sathsun or...the lowpoly model version...

there is no "jump to Epsilon Pegasi" directive...

The jump node leads to "Jump Node 0" i though it leaded to Epsilon Pegasi...

the sun is misaligned...i mean...jump nodes are supposed to be in the edges of a System (i think)...and you are suppposed to jump outwards the system...not inwards...not towards the sun... get it?
i think that's all...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 05, 2005, 11:38:41 pm

I've updated the mission, but i haven't moved or changed the wings, since you just now brought these things up.

yeesh, i do my best after not FREDding for about a year and this is what you give me... nothing but criticism... well, except for karajorma, of course. :D

mission has sunsaths, a directive, and i'm experimenting with a "red alert" SEXP.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Black Wolf on February 06, 2005, 04:03:02 am

Quote

Originally posted by willy_principal
the sun is misaligned...i mean...jump nodes are supposed to be in the edges of a System (i think)...and you are suppposed to jump outwards the system...not inwards...not towards the sun... get it?

You can't control which direction the player chooses to jump out, so this is pretty much irrelevant IMO. I've never felt the need to align jumpnodes that way anyway.[/color]

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: willy_principal on February 06, 2005, 10:01:19 pm

i do....i'm quite perfectionist...
well, i understand if the player jumps inwards the system...

but an entire convoy jumping inwards is wrong as hell...

and i think the player think could be fixed, it would be difficult, but possible...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 06, 2005, 11:56:12 pm

just play the mission (first link in first post) it's updated, and has a few changes.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 07, 2005, 10:56:21 pm

hey, karajorma, how do you take pics while you're in FRED? I have a small problem and I don't know how to say it in words.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Roanoke on February 08, 2005, 02:09:38 am

Press Print Screen.  Go into Paint. Edit-Paste.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 08, 2005, 09:32:12 am

Quote

Originally posted by Cobra
....I don't know how to say it in words.

Then say it in numbers. :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 10, 2005, 07:41:14 pm

OK, here's the sexps i'm having trouble with:

-(Chained)Alpha 1 May Jump
--When
---True
----Allow-warp
-----Alpha 1

-(Not Chained)Red Alert To Next Mission
--When
---Key-Pressed
----Alt-J
-----Red-Alert

the problem is, i want the red alert to happen when i press alt-j at the end of the mission. but when i press alt-j anytime in the mission, it red-alerts. help anyone?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Axem on February 10, 2005, 09:46:53 pm

Code: [Select]

and
 is-event-true
    alpha 1 may jump
 key-press
    alt-j

I dunno if that'll work or not. In theory it should work.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 10, 2005, 10:37:14 pm

hmm. i did think of that, but i doubted it would work. wait a few minutes...

BTW, is that for the first or second SEXP? Give me the entire SEXP, name and all plse.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 11, 2005, 12:27:12 pm

That's a replacement for the second SEXP.  You'll need to add the red-alert bit to it but apart from that it's complete.

However I'd also change the first SEXP to this

-(Chained)Alpha 1 May Jump
--When
---True
--Allow-warp
---Alpha 1
--key-reset
---alt-j

You do this to prevent this senario.  

The player tries to jump out early. The game registers that Alt-J was pressed. As soon as the alpha may jump event comes true the game would automatically red alert because the game realises that the player has already pressed Alt-J even if it was 10 minutes earlier.

Adding the key-reset means that regardless of what the player did earlier he still has to press Alt-j before the mission will red alert.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 11, 2005, 03:12:35 pm

'bout time you answered kara :D this should be the last adjustment to the mission. after that i'll upload it and let you all go to town.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 11, 2005, 03:21:15 pm

I'm trying to cut down on my HLP addiction somewhat so I'm not visiting as often :p

I'm down to only 5 visits a day :D

Get that change done and I'll give it a try. :) Be warned though I'm gonna try harder to break the mission this time round :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 11, 2005, 07:17:12 pm

break the mision and you take all the fun out of it :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 11, 2005, 07:24:12 pm

so, basically, i had the events set up right, i just didn't have the SEXPs set up right. am i right?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 12, 2005, 03:07:28 am

Pretty much.

As for breaking the mission, it's better that I break it now and get you to fix it, than we release the mission and a whole bunch of people break it and make you and the campaign look bad.  :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 12, 2005, 09:54:46 pm

heh

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 13, 2005, 10:47:15 am

So. Have you got the next version ready for testing yet? I thought you said you only had to change those two SEXPs.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 13, 2005, 02:41:42 pm

just about. i'm playtesting. i'm also trying to figure out how to make the complaint messages work, since the freighters keep jumping out before they can send their messages.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: willy_principal on February 13, 2005, 05:43:35 pm

that's simple...put the convoy away from the jump node...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 13, 2005, 08:09:24 pm

[sarcasm]noooo, ya think?[/sarcasm]

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: willy_principal on February 15, 2005, 12:08:26 am

minor lol

this is kinda dead... i think...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 15, 2005, 11:45:41 am

noooo, i'm tweaking. which, btw, is done. Link Updated. First Post.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: willy_principal on February 15, 2005, 12:17:45 pm

alright....
*downloading*

let's give it a try...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 15, 2005, 12:21:38 pm

like it or die :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: willy_principal on February 15, 2005, 06:38:49 pm

i just formatted my computer...i will have to reinstall everything again...

this is gonna take a while...

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Mad Bomber on February 15, 2005, 07:02:12 pm

You've been having comp trouble, too, eh? :p

Come onto MSN so we can plan our evil HFH plans... :drevil:

(methinks i might try this mission, too)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 15, 2005, 07:29:06 pm

try it. you'll like it :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 16, 2005, 10:16:20 am

anyone played my mission yet?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 16, 2005, 12:04:53 pm

It's on the list :D 2nd place actually. :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Primus on February 16, 2005, 12:38:26 pm

You and your list :D How many points/entries are in your list? :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 16, 2005, 02:01:33 pm

who got 1st place?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Primus on February 16, 2005, 02:05:34 pm

It should be MG :p I can't accept any other for that place :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 16, 2005, 03:11:37 pm

Actually it was your mission and the fixes to the Iceni. I'm gonna play this one now and then I've got some MG FREDding to look forwards to.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 16, 2005, 05:02:18 pm

which mission? :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 16, 2005, 06:08:19 pm

Primus's was first. Then yours. Now that I've gotten them both done they move down and MG is number one :D

Anyway to get back on topic. I tried the mission but you seem to have made a few changes since the last one that I'm not too keen on.

1) Have you moved the Julius? Cause there seems to be no danger to it. I  took my wingmen and flew away from the julius and left it to fight the shivans on its own and it still got to the node. I think you need to move it further away as it was ready to leave about a minute after the cain arrived (which I never saw do much damage to the Julius.  

Admittedly this might not be too much of a problem because the player does have to protect it through the following red-alert mission.

2) The two lambda transports appear to get stuck close to each other and never jump out. This is because they will only leap out when the waypoints are done for the wing. Unfortunately Lambda 2 can't get to it's way point without going through lambda 1. Change the event so that each ship has it's own departure option (I personally never reccomend putting transports into wings. There's a whole load of other weird things that can happen if you try)

3) The get Julius to the node directive has been chained to destroy cancer. That's a very odd thing to do. It should appear at the start of the mission. Otherwise if you take a long time to kill cancer wing you face the possibility of the directive only appearing after the Julius has left.

4) You appear to have gotten the invalidate objective thing incorrect. The Destroy Malice objective appears on the briefing screen and then becomes invalid before the end of the mission. It should of course be the other way round. You invalidate a goal from the mission objectives editor NOT the event editor if you want to not appear on the list of mission objectives in the briefing.

5) I noticed that you can't jump out until the mission is done. Good job there. However the implementation needs some work because there is nothing actually chaining the player to the node. He can jump out anywhere. Check my FAQ to see how to implement a series of event that mean the player can only jump out at the node rather than anywhere he feels like.

6) Add a delay to the key pressed SEXP in the Red Alert To Next Mission event. Adding a delay of 4 means that the player will hear his engines warm up and maybe even see the start of the jump out before the red alert kicks in.

7) The Malice will only fire its beams if Alpha4 is still alive. Why did you set things up this way? It's also the reason why the Destoy Malice objective never becomes valid again. Hmmmm. This is probably why the Julius never seemed to be in danger.

8) The above problem is due to the fact that you're over using chains somewhat. The Alpha 1 can't jump event's trigger is true so why is it chained to the Shivans event which is also true. The chain is completely unnecessary. Both events will occur at the start of the mission regardless of the chain so you might as well ditch it.

Okay. That's enough to be going on with. If I spot anything else I'll let you know :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 16, 2005, 06:56:20 pm

1) Fixed

2) I've tried fixing that before, but i can't seem to fix that...

3) Fixed

4) Fixed

5) I tested that myself. The red-alert didn't happen and i couldn't jump out until the event was true. hmm. i'll check the faq.

6) Fixed

7) what the hell? only fires beams if a4 is still alive? man, i gotta check this out... of course, i was wondering why the malice beams weren't firing... i'm still kinda confused that how "un"-chaining the events would help.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 17, 2005, 09:35:22 am

2) I'd break the wing up and give seperate orders the the transports. Failing that you could simply use an ai-warpout SEXP to make them jump out.

Just make events that come true when the waypoints are done for a certain transport and add-goal>>ai-warpout to that.

5) You're corroct that you can't jump out until the mission is complete. As I said you've done that bit correctly. However once the mission is complete Alpha can jump out from anywhere on the map. There's nothing that forces him to go to the node in order to jump out successfully.
 Basically you've made sure that alpha can only jump out at the correct time but you haven't made sure that he can only jump out at the right place.

7) You've chained the Free Malice Beams event to the Cain Arrives event. However Cain Arrives only triggers if Alpha4 is alive. If he's dead then all the rest of the chain is ignored.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 17, 2005, 10:24:17 am

2) ah, ok.

5) Gimme some help with that. I looked in your faq, but there was nothing.

7) ok, i'm looking into that.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 17, 2005, 11:09:18 am

Check out the How do I make a ship jump out at a certain place (e.g. a jump node)? section in the FRED part of the FAQ. It's even got pictures :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 17, 2005, 11:27:42 am

meh, i just thought the player would have enough sense to jump out at the node :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 17, 2005, 12:18:14 pm

Always bet on idiocy. You lose less money that way :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 17, 2005, 02:02:02 pm

:lol:

i've added two more events for the jump node purpose. i'm trying to figure out how to make the Malice's beams work, and trying to remember how to use the ai-goals... looking at the faq now.

[EDIT] D'OH! damn, i'm stupid. nm about the ai goals thing.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 17, 2005, 02:16:31 pm

I'd simply use.

when
-has arrived
--1
--SC Malice
-Beam-Free-all

No sense in chaining anything for this.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 17, 2005, 02:33:29 pm

D'OH! Again.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 20, 2005, 04:08:21 pm

WHOAH! you guys have GOT to try my mission with FS1 music. you can download the table i made here (http://www.geocities.com/dickerson_dj/warble_fs.zip) and the wav files here (http://www.fileplanet.com/dl.aspx?/3dactionplanet/hlp/hosted/fsport/warble_fs1.zip)

feedback in this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,30688.0.html)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 02:38:51 pm

hmm. i'm having trouble with the 'tie alpha 1 to jump node' events. When i am 500 meters from the center of the node, i press alt-j, but i get a 'cannot jump out at this time', and 4 seconds later the red alert sequence starts. also have an event that prevents alpha 1 from jumping out when you press alt-j and it doesn't red alert.

hey, karajorma, how do you take pics like you did in earlier pages?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 21, 2005, 02:49:59 pm

Post up the mission and I'll take a look at it for you Cobra.

As for taking pic I simply press PrintScreen and then open up a graphic program (I use Irfanview but anything would work) and paste it in. Then I crop to only include the bits I'm interested in. :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 03:04:07 pm

that's the problem tho. it's not saved in the FS2 folder. heck, i don't even think the pic gets taken.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 21, 2005, 03:17:26 pm

Are you talking about taking pictures in FS2 or in FRED? Cause in FRED you have to actually cut and paste. When you press Printscreen a screenshot is taken but is simply placed in the windows clipboard. You need to actually paste into something before you can save it.

In FS2 the game itself should save the picture to your FS2 folder.

Anyway post the mission itself it's much easier to troubleshoot that than a picture :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 03:23:21 pm

pff... i hate it when people do this to me :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 21, 2005, 03:30:18 pm

Heed his advice, he is wise.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 03:33:15 pm

yes.

[EDIT] here ya go, kara.

(http://www.geocities.com/dickerson_dj/FREDimage.jpg)

i took out the key-reset by accident, and now i forgot where to put it :nervous:

the Malice's beam problem is fixed, and now i'm wondering why 3 out of the 4 freighters aren't sending their complaint messages.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 21, 2005, 03:43:20 pm

Is the alpha1 may jump a repeating event? If not when you move more than 500m from the waypoint you would be prevented from jumping out but would still be able to red alert if the delay hadn't passed and the event was still regarded as true.

*This is why it's easier to check the mission itself rather than a picture*

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 03:48:31 pm

ah. lemme upload it to geocities.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 03:51:42 pm

Here ya go (http://www.geocities.com/dickerson_dj/Downloads/C2M9v1.9.zip).

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 21, 2005, 04:14:37 pm

As I thought the problem is that neither event repeats. Both Alpha 1 May Jump and Alpha 1 Can't Jump Again need a very high repeat count (Over a thousand, you might as well pump it up as high as it will go).

Also Alpha 1 Can't Jump Again should use Never-Warp rather than break-warp  (That's actually a bug in the FAQ I hadn't noticed until now! :) )

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 04:20:24 pm

thanks a lot kara :D

so what do i do to change it? (besides the repeat count)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 21, 2005, 04:20:55 pm

Doing that should solve the jump out bug. If that's the only change you had left to make to the mission I'll play test it and tell you what else needs changing.

EDIT : Being a modetator gives you a work around for that timewarp problem. Delete and post again later :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 21, 2005, 04:23:26 pm

I would say increase the distance within which you can jump. 500 is too few, I used 800 for the same goal in both of my campaigns and sometimes even this number seemed few.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 04:33:50 pm

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
modetator

.... :lol: what, you don't know how to spell?

as for the distance thing mentioned by TopAce, would 1000 be enough? or should i put 1500?

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on February 21, 2005, 04:41:12 pm

*Opens Sparky_fs2.vp in modelview*

A jump node is 1327m wide at it's largest axis according to modelview so 700 should actually be fine as long as the waypoint right in the middle of the node. You may wish to experiment a little when playtesting.

As for the spelling mistake

1) How come you caught that one and miss the hundreds I make elsewhere?
2) Typing a t instead of an r is hardly much of a typo considering that they are next to each other on the keyboard :)

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on February 21, 2005, 05:24:06 pm

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
*Opens Sparky_fs2.vp in modelview*

A jump node is 1327m wide at it's largest axis according to modelview so 700 should actually be fine as long as the waypoint right in the middle of the node. You may wish to experiment a little when playtesting.

I got the waypoint as close to the center as i could.

Quote

As for the spelling mistake

1) How come you caught that one and miss the hundreds I make elsewhere?
2) Typing a t instead of an r is hardly much of a typo considering that they are next to each other on the keyboard :)

meh, i have no frikkin idea... i saw "modetator" and started thinking of something else. ever heard of Ron (or was it Rod?) White. Slogan: "They call me tater salad." and don't ask about that, kara.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on February 22, 2005, 07:55:41 am

1500 is too much. 1000 sounds fair.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Kosh on July 22, 2005, 11:41:49 pm

I just finished playtesting this and here are a few things I found.


1.) Are Kaysers supposed to be in the weapons selection?


2.) I noticed something really wierd with the Lambda transports and that Triton. Lambda 2 collides at the end of the mission with the freighter, but the strange thing is that lambda 1 was, for some reason, inside of that triton.


3.) I notice that none of the bombers actually shoot bombs at the corvette. The closest thing they use is a cluster bomb, but never any torpedoes. And yes, they are well within range to do that.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on July 23, 2005, 12:22:16 am

yes. :rolleyes: this is after they developed the kayser weaponry.

heh, i couldn't fix the lambda bug.

i didn't notice that.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on July 23, 2005, 03:17:44 am

1) Will be taken care of by the campaigns file's team loadout. I always tend to leave a heavy weapon enabled in the mission file (during testing at least) so that I can kill the enemy fast and move on to testing the rest of the mission) :D
 That said the campaign take place near the time Capella is destroyed so the Kayser was being distributed at the time.

2) Sounds like a single waypoint is being used for all three ships. You can do that but you need to stop them when they get close to it or just use seperate waypoints.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Kosh on July 23, 2005, 03:17:56 pm

Quote

this is after they developed the kayser weaponry.

I know that, but it doesn't stop allied command from limiting their deployment. :rolleyes:

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on July 23, 2005, 03:38:09 pm

Quote

Originally posted by karajorma
2) Sounds like a single waypoint is being used for all three ships. You can do that but you need to stop them when they get close to it or just use seperate waypoints.

eh, i used a SEXP to limit the transport's speeds.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on July 23, 2005, 04:30:47 pm

Let me put it this way. If you try to park 3 cars in one space is it really going to make a difference what speed you park them at as to whether or not they hit each other?

On top of that using waypoints done as a trigger for a SEXP with anything larger than a bomber is a risky business. Caps frequently overshoot the waypoint resulting in it not being recorded as being done.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on July 23, 2005, 04:45:26 pm

which is understandable, since capships way like 60,000 tonnes and higher, and therefore have a larger mass. and they can't turn or stop on a dime. :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Nuclear1 on July 23, 2005, 09:32:21 pm

1.9 is the most recent release, isn't it? If that's the case, I've got a number of nitpicks (if these have come up before, forgive me, but I feel they need to be addressed).

Background. There's a sense of emptiness here that I didn't feel in the main campaign or any other campaign. If you need to, copy V's background from Clash of the Titans II, which also took place at the EP node.

The briefing also, IMHO, needs to be longer. I really don't find that a couple of lines is enough. Perhaps you could elaborate on the civilians that you have to ignore, or the Shivans around the star? Additionally, Stage 1 should cut to Stage 2 (ie use the fuzzy effect).

The debriefing seems to be lacking too. It also seems unnecessary, seeing as how there are no events telling the player to jump out in the event that the Julius is destroyed. You should add some of these, and then add a bit of a longer debrief in this case. Talk about some of the consequences, other than simply "thousands died". We can assume that, unless there was nobody on the ship. Give us some long-reaching or short-reaching consequences for its destruction, and definitely give the player recommendations on how they can do better.

The weapons loadout really needs work, though. Everything seems to be at its default number, which shows laziness on the part of the FREDer. Limit the weapons to how many fighters there are; have about enough of each cannon for one slot on each fighter, and maybe enough of each missile for at least one slot on each (for four fighters, I would recommend about ~480 Hornets, ~360 Tornadoes, ~120 Harpoon, ~90 Rockeyes, ~400 Tempests, etc.).

Additionally, just to show professionalism, I would recommend adding a "Destroy Malice Beams" directive in there as well. Additionally, fighters should be grouped into formation, as it looks a little more worked on then simply all over the place or in a large triangle.

Otherwise, it looks like you're becoming a much better FREDer, Cobra. :nod:

Was I supposed to nitpick this much? No one else seemed to be... :nervous:

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on July 23, 2005, 09:45:26 pm

[LIST=*]Yes, I haven't done that.
Briefings and Debriefings: eh, as you know, i'm not big on those. ;)
Aren't we all lazy? :p
And I was never big on destroy beam cannon objectives, either. I hate those. :p
Heh, echelons are my favorite formation. :D[/LIST]

Thanks. :D

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Nuclear1 on July 23, 2005, 09:56:01 pm

Still, I think the point of FA is to break some of those bad habits. If you really want to become a competent FREDer, some of these things have to be fixed up, some more importantly the others (i.e. briefing and debrief work should come before formations, which are not all that noticeable anyway).

As for the brief/debriefs, just try to imagine that you were one of the FS2 squadron leaders, and try to imagine talking like they would, and addressing the squadron like they would. Be informal at times (use "kids", "crew", "team", etc.), but stay professional when giving the information ("We have a situation developing near the inhabited planet of Cygnus Prime", etc.).

And no problem with the feedback. :) Anything I can do to help.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Kosh on July 24, 2005, 01:15:11 am

Quote

Still, I think the point of FA is to break some of those bad habits. If you really want to become a competent FREDer, some of these things have to be fixed up, some more importantly the others

Exactly. FA is for you to learn how to be a good FREDer, not for you to find more threads to spam in.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: TopAce on July 24, 2005, 04:18:06 am

Quote

Originally posted by nuclear1
...Be informal at times (use "kids", "crew", "team", etc.)...

I don't agree with this. A squadron leader who doesn't know his 'minions' (<- Wrong word, I know) should be formal to the pilots. If they know each other or are a group of pirates, criminals, etc. that's another case.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: karajorma on July 24, 2005, 04:38:30 am

Should be, perhaps. Will be, I doubt it.

Title: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Nuclear1 on July 24, 2005, 11:38:58 am

Quote

Originally posted by TopAce


I don't agree with this. A squadron leader who doesn't know his 'minions' (<- Wrong word, I know) should be formal to the pilots. If they know each other or are a group of pirates, criminals, etc. that's another case.

Ah, that would be just my FREDing style and my campaign stories then. :) In nearly all of the campaigns I've worked on, the squadron leader has been really close to his wingmates, or the captain of a vessel has had a long history with the pilots. I'd more understand if it was a FS2 main campaign situation, with pilots switching in and out of squadrons and not being around long enough to really know one squadron well enough.

Title: Re: [FA] C2M9 Cobra
Post by: Cobra on May 07, 2006, 02:08:01 pm

*bump*

alrighty, i'm gonna finish the work i started and revise M9. :D