Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on February 03, 2005, 04:06:44 am
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I have a feeling Kazan will find this interesting, to say the least. I'm not posting this to get arguments started, so don't. I just thought that after all the noise about annoying pushy Western Christians, it's interest many of you to read about the other side of the coin.... dare I say it, the "true" face of Christianity, in that the persecutions Jesus warned about are quite lacking in the West.
Anyway, without further ado:
[q]from here (http://www.handofhelp.com/michael_5.php)
"DAWN of LIBERTY"
-Extracts by Michael Phillips.
"...It is with great pleasure that I want to present to our beloved brothers and sisters in the church behind what we have called the Iron Curtain these last fifty years, a check from money raised by faithful believers across America.... Ladies and gentlemen," he went on, "I want you to meet a man I know you are eager to hear from, a man who carried the standard of the cross bravely, as you know - imprisoned and tortured, he never gave in to those who would destroy his faith. And so now, Dieder - Dieder Palacki, won't you please come, accept this money on behalf of Christians behind the Iron Curtain everywhere. I have here a check for three million dollars to give you!"
At the words, sighs and gasps and a few low whistles could be heard, all of which gave way to a round of applause. He turned, expecting Palacki to stand, come forward and shake the outstretched hand that awaited him.
But instead Palacki remained seated where he was, until the clapping died down. At last he rose, came forward, took the check, shook MacPatricks hand unaggressively, but still said nothing. Slightly unnerved, but still not losing his cool, MacPatrick resumed his own seat with the other dignitaries.
Slowly Palacki make his way toward the podium. He appeared not even to notice the applauding reception that broke out again, and in his eyes was not a look of warmth.
Reaching the center of the platform, he did not lift his head to scan the faces of his listeners. Gradually the clapping died down and the hall fell silent. Still Palacki stared downward in front of him, while the delegates waited expectantly.
It was several long moments before he at last spoke. "It has been a curious past several days," he began, speaking softly. "I have been listening with great interest to the many discussions and exhortations, all with the end in view of promoting the Christian faith in a region of the world where one might conclude never before had a single soul heard the name Jesus of Nazareth."
"I must admit that when the invitation came to join you, and even to address this gathering, I found myself seized with a certain trepidation. As you know, large assemblies of Christians such as this have not been customary where I come from, and thus most of my work among Christians has been in small groups of less than one hundred. Addressing several thousand I found a very intimidating prospect."
"In the end however, I decided to join you, for we pastors and Christians from the regions formerly behind the Iron Curtain are certainly excited about the new possibilities for evangelism in our nations too."
"But as I listened to more and more talk of money and pamphlets, of missionaries being sent and books being shipped, of teachers and pastors coming to help and train us in spreading the gospel, and of your gospel TV and radio stations and your gospel trains and gospel trucks full of your Western-style gospel paraphernalia - your badges and tracts and stickers and music and gaily written happiness-books with their joy-filled, razzle-dazzle Christianity - a knot has steadily risen in my stomach."
"Do not forget, I have spent much time in your countries. I have been in your churches and bookstores. I have witnessed with my own eyes the trappings of your so-called spiritual prosperity, which is really no prosperity at all, but a hollow empty shell."
"Something within me wants to shout and say to you all, "Go home to your contented and wealthy homes and communities and churches. The Good News of Jesus Christ is alive and vibrant and is fully capable of carrying itself abroad into the hearts of hungry men and women without the benefit of your expensive and lavish commercial efforts on its behalf."
"Why do you think that those of us such as my brothers Wurmbrand and Duduman and Vins and others have been risking our lives for all these years? Each of us has been imprisoned, beaten, tortured, humiliated because of our preaching of Christ's gospel. Thousands upon thousands of our fellow Poles and Russians and Slavs and East Germans have laid their lives on the line for the sake of their faith and in order to share that faith with others."
"I tell you, my friends, God's church is alive and well in the areas you represent as lost and in such desperate need. Small, perhaps, it may be, but it is alive and thriving because in our corners of the world there is a price to be paid to call yourself a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. A price that cannot be measured, as you seem to measure all things - by money. No, you who hear my words who I hope and pray are my brothers and sisters, it costs to believe in the East. It costs all you have to be a Christian. So there are very few lukewarm, halfhearted souls among us. To be halfhearted can cost you your life!"
"For years we have tried to alert you Christians of the West to the true state of affairs behind the Iron Curtain. We have written, we have traveled, we have spoken, we have prayed, we have wept."
"How many of you listened to us?"
"My brother and friend Alexandr Solzhenitsyn attempted for a decade to be heard, as have so many others. We asked for your prayers, for Bibles, for help in teaching and training our people. And some help did come, for which we were grateful."
"But the rest of you continued to feed your own mammoth religious systems, building yet bigger and bigger transmitting stations and more television stations and publishing more books - all in the name of proclaiming the gospel."
"But did you ever give of yourselves? Did you come help us? Did you pray for us? Did you suffer and die and starve with us? How much did you really care about the people you now so pompously think you will save for the kingdom?"
"Where have you been all this time? We needed your help and prayers and support and Bibles when times were hard! We have been beaten and imprisoned and even killed for the gospel's sake. Where were you when it counted? We lived our faith behind the Iron Curtain, and now that it is down, who is to say we even want you coming with your pompous egoism and self-reliance?.... Do you truly expect us to share your enthusiasm and welcome you and your wealthy brand of capitalistic Christianity with open arms?"
"Think again, my friends, those I would still call my brothers and sisters in spite of your blindness. Pause and consider the egotism of your presumption and the worldliness of your method."
By now the auditorium was filled with the heaviness of shocked silence. No one dared move a muscle or so much as shift in his seat. But Palacki's chastening diatribe was not over yet.
"How dare you well-fed, contented, prosperous Christians of the West, come here now and think you can throw your money at us poor unfortunates and suddenly save the world with all the gadgets and inventions and high-tech wizardry of electronic spirituality! You with your multi-million-dollar architecturally imposing churches, you with your computer Bibles and preprogrammed Bible Studies, you with your posh cars and soft, upholstered pews, your grand libraries of Christian books, your leather-bound reference Bibles, you who have all the answers to the world's ills nicely at hand to spout off when asked."
"Have we Christians of the East been idle all this time? What would you have us to do, go off quietly somewhere so you can come in and pat yourselves on the back before your watching congregations and claim credit for saving all the souls who would be lost without you?"
"No my shallow brothers and sisters of wealthy, contented Western evangelicalism! Build a prayer tower or a glass church somewhere, but think not that your money can save souls. Go back from whence you came, and spend your evangelistic self- gratifying mammon elsewhere!"
Suddenly he stopped, stood another two or three seconds gazing at his listeners with calm countenance, yet flaming eyes. Then, with decisive motion he ripped the check he was still holding into several pieces and let it drop to the floor.
Palacki turned and strode off the platform and out of sight, leaving his hearers gaping in stunned silence.[/q]
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*nods* Totally understood. It's shameful that there is no recognition of what is really happening to Christians in places where the Christianity is real.
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oddly amusing. i always like it when mamoth organizations get a smack in the face like that, especially when its the church.
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I like this guy.
As someone who used to get simple joy out of the Candle-light processions and the days when the kids made the Xmas decorations out of crepe paper. Regardless of whether you were a Christian or not, Christmas has died, it's nothing more than a light-show these days.
I'm not overtly religious, but I have a damn sight more respect for a religion that sticks to it's guns, which is something that, sadly, I must admit, Christianity has failed in abysmally.
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Wow. Powerful stuff. I wish there were more people like him.
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if your gonna believe in something believe in it. dont just say you do just to fit in.
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"Too many saviours on my cross"
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:yes: Now there's a man I can respect.
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Hmm. Good stuff. Worth sitting back and thinking about.
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Err, you guys know this is fiction right?
http://www.parable.com/1853325/item_0842359583.htm
Oh and I like the name of the article you linked to Sandy, "Financing the End Time Harvest" How quaint.
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Son of a *****. This is what happens when take posts at face value.
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Yes, of course I knew it was fiction, eh guys! :)
:nervous:
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so is the bible
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He was right, We over here are afraid that we will be called idiots if we tell someone about Christ, while they are not afraid to risk their lives. And not just being killed, but tortured.
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Awww. And I really thought it was a real guy... This was all convenient too, since GOD TV blares on here in finland constantly, and that has to be the most evil money scam in the entire world. Asking old people to donate no less than £250 to receive a 24h miracle, so they can line their fat pockets and spread the gospel around the world on their little vans. But not before also buing themselves a new hq with jacuzzi's and saunas... ugh... I respect no religion that requires you to pay for it.
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I was just about to pull out a football and challenge the Germans to a game between the trenches :nervous:
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What, you actually thought somebody ripped up a 3 million dollar check? lol.
And do quote Mohandas:
"I consider western Christianity in its practical working a negation of Christ’s Christianity."
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Or Ghandi....
'I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians, they are nothing like your Christ....'
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Originally posted by Gank
What, you actually thought somebody ripped up a 3 million dollar check? lol.
Well....Yeah....:nervous: :blah:
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Originally posted by Flipside
Or Ghandi....
They're both Gandhi, I forgot the surname.
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Even though I really don't like Christianity, I really admire this guy, even if it is fake, because there are people really like him out there. I respect people like that, who defend their faith to the end (not like the stupid money-Christians here)
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Originally posted by Gank
They're both Gandhi, I forgot the surname.
And I forgot the first name. Though you win on letter-difference ;)
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Originally posted by Gank
Err, you guys know this is fiction right?
http://www.parable.com/1853325/item_0842359583.htm
Huh. No, I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing it out.
Regardless, I think the point still stands.
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Aye, shame the true face of christianity is a fictional character though.
ps, hope ye gave the wall a few headbuts for walking into that one :p
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While it may be fiction, the story is not. Missionaries are being killed because they preach Christ. And while it may not be 3 million dollors, that is what we do over here, we send them checks, instead of what they really need, and that is prayer.
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Well, they probably need both, but I think it isn't about what you can give to them, as it were...
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Umm, the story is fiction. Religion wasnt banned under the USSR, and while it was repressed to some extend, there was no persecution of Christians. There were no thousands upon thousands laying their lives down for their faith, at least not since before ww2. As for missionaries being killed, I think you'll find that for the most part this takes place because they're trying to convert people of other denominations, who dont take kindly to it.
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You sound like you want me to flame you. So, ok, here it go's
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:hammer: HARD HEAD!
:p
You happy now?:lol:
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Hey, the point is valid, regardless of whether its real. Personally, I think that Pat Robertson and the whole American evangelical enterprise is not only an affront to Christianity, but one of the biggest and most successful scam operations in history.
Ah well.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Hey, the point is valid, regardless of whether its real. Personally, I think that Pat Robertson and the whole American evangelical enterprise is not only an affront to Christianity, but one of the biggest and most successful scam operations in history.
Ah well.
You forgot Benny Hinn.:lol: The best scammer that ever lived.
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Originally posted by WeatherOp
You sound like you want me to flame you. So, ok, here it go's
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:hammer: HARD HEAD!
:p
You happy now?:lol:
Flame me? meh, I was actually hoping for an intelligent rebuttal. So much for that.
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Originally posted by Gank
Umm, the story is fiction. Religion wasnt banned under the USSR, and while it was repressed to some extend, there was no persecution of Christians. There were no thousands upon thousands laying their lives down for their faith, at least not since before ww2. As for missionaries being killed, I think you'll find that for the most part this takes place because they're trying to convert people of other denominations, who dont take kindly to it.
Eh...
It's out there, and it happens. It's not often made public, but it definitely happens. In fact, it's estimated that more Christians have been martyred in the 20th century than in any other century A.D. (Now this may be partly due to population increase, but it's still very significant.)
http://www.persecutedchurch.org/
http://www.persecution.com/
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IIRC, religion was supressed to varying amounts under Soviet rule. It was at its low ebb immediately after the October Revolution, but it returned as a tool to pacify the masses. China, though, I believe had a fairly discrimatory attitude to Christians at some point.
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I think it's Nigeria that suffers badly from fighting between Christian and Muslim factions, there have been atrocoties commited by both sides there.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Eh...
It's out there, and it happens. It's not often made public, but it definitely happens. In fact, it's estimated that more Christians have been martyred in the 20th century than in any other century A.D. (Now this may be partly due to population increase, but it's still very significant.)
Some concrete figures to back this up please, not some vague we're being persecuted site. By concrete I mean non-religious.
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Originally posted by Flipside
Or Ghandi....
'I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians, they are nothing like your Christ....'
Think about that one for a little while longer. Christ's work is a function of God's mercy, remember.
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Indeed, but the question I often wonder about is, 'Do you see Christ as a Figure-head/Symbol for what you believe or a Role-model who's actions and thoughts should be aspired to?'
I suppose to my mind, we are all the Sons/Daughters of God, useing a widely generic term for God. I've often wondered if that was the true message Christ was trying to get across, we can all aspire to be God-like, but there are different types of Godhood. Christ says to love those around you, to help them and heal them, maybe we are chasing the wrong kind of Godhood?
Take Matthew 7, the Sermon on the Mount, in that Christ warns the crowd of the dangers of jumping to conclusions, of judging those around them, and of treating people poorly, he does not mention status nor race as a divider.
I am sure your Christ did not die for your Sins simply so sections of Christianity could forget everything he had chosen to live, and die, to say.
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True, and well perceived. Many Christians do not realise that themselves, which is very sad. However, I'd temper that fact with the point that it is because of us humans' sinfulness that Christ died for us - and that sinfulness will still be present until Christ comes again to restore the whole world. So, given the present moral frailty of Christians (as with all humans), it is to be expected that in some measure they will be quite unlike Christ.
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I see what you mean, in the Bible, even Christ felt weakness at times. :)
You are what I would define as a 'Good Christian' though Setekh, you take Jesus' statements on compassion and understanding as something to learn from, and in so doing, learn from them :)
Edit : I just wish more people would look on it in such a way.
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Originally posted by Gank
Some concrete figures to back this up please, not some vague we're being persecuted site. By concrete I mean non-religious.
You just effectively cut yourself off from any sort of evidence there. Christian websites are the ones most likely to keep figures on Christians being persecuted; just like Jewish or Muslim websites would be the ones most likely to keep figures on Jews or Muslims being persecuted.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
You just effectively cut yourself off from any sort of evidence there. Christian websites are the ones most likely to keep figures on Christians being persecuted; just like Jewish or Muslim websites would be the ones most likely to keep figures on Jews or Muslims being persecuted.
Actually, I'm surprised: http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/22/china.state.dept/
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Well, there ya go. Hardly think it represents the whole picture, though - if anything, there would be more than what we see.
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The great irony is the majority of persecution is between differing religions, or sects of religions.
The rest of us just take the piss, not hurt you really.
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China persecutes everyone, and its not persecuting themn for spreading christs message as such, its persecuting them along with anyone who practises any religion, it does the same to Buddhists in tibet and Muslims in one of its provinces. As for cutting myself off from evidence, that would imply that there is none. If this century has seen the largest number of martyrs, surely theres some sort of figures by someone out there, ICRC, Amnesty etc. There are people other than the church who document these things, and even try to stop them.
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Originally posted by vyper
The great irony is the majority of persecution is between differing religions, or sects of religions.
The rest of us just take the piss, not hurt you really.
Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions. Rome. Nazi Germany. China. The U.S.S.R. Etc. Religious regimes pale by comparison.Originally posted by Gank
China persecutes everyone, and its not persecuting themn for spreading christs message as such, its persecuting them along with anyone who practises any religion, it does the same to Buddhists in tibet and Muslims in one of its provinces.
Are you changing the argument now? :rolleyes: The argument was whether or not persecution exists, not why it happens.As for cutting myself off from evidence, that would imply that there is none. If this century has seen the largest number of martyrs, surely theres some sort of figures by someone out there, ICRC, Amnesty etc. There are people other than the church who document these things, and even try to stop them.
Not really. Who, besides members of a certain religion, is going to be interested in people persecuting members of that religion? Nobody, for all intents and purposes. Just look at the Holocaust for evidence. When it was happening, the world turned a blind eye to it.
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I was under the impression that Romans had their own religion, hardly aetheist, and as for Germans, if that is a reference to the Holocaust, I'm fairly sure that the ideal aryan was blonde haired, blue eyed and a Christian, Nazis were certainly not aetheist. The USSR I believe was an orthodox religion but I'm not really too wise on the facts so I'll let that one slide.
Also, when did the world turn a blind eye to the Holocaust? I was always under the impression that nobody outside of allied secret services had any idea as to what was going on.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions. Rome. Germany. China. The U.S.S.R. Etc.
When were Italy and Germany atheist regimes? :wtf:
EDIT:
Actually, thinking about it, what "atheist regimes" existed besides China and USSR?
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[q]Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions. Rome. Germany. China. The U.S.S.R. Etc. Religious regimes pale by comparison.[/q]
I was meaning in terms of individuals. However, if you want to be picky, who starts crusades and jihads?
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I edited my post to say Nazi Germany. While it professed to be Christian, it was anything but. And the Nazis tried to get rid of all kinds of people.
Rome's official religion eventually became "worship the emperor". Hardly a religion to be taken seriously.
@vyper: I'm not minimizing the effects of crusades and jihads by any means. But athiest governments killed (and continue to kill) many, many more people.
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Rome was an atheist regime? Greco-roman mythology? Hello? :confused:
Nazi Germany was Christian, period. It can even go against what it professed but it was still Christian. By the same logic you use, I could say all the countries that fought against muslins in the crusades, in the reconquista, etc, were not christian.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions. Rome. Nazi Germany. China. The U.S.S.R. Etc. Religious regimes pale by comparison.
Rome was a religious regime, ever heard of Jupiter, Saturn, etc etc :rolleyes: Nazi Germany wasnt atheist, the vast majority of its population was protestant, Russia didnt really persecute people per say, more discriminated against mildly. And if you look at the whole of history, its always been religious groups persecuting others, there were no atheist regimes till the last century
Originally posted by Goober5000
Are you changing the argument now? :rolleyes: The argument was whether or not persecution exists, not why it happens.
No, I'm just pointing out that christianity isnt alone in getting persecuted in China. And the arguement was actually about the USSR. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Goober5000
Not really. Who, besides members of a certain religion, is going to be interested in people persecuting members of that religion? Nobody, for all intents and purposes. Just look at the Holocaust for evidence. When it was happening, the world turned a blind eye to it.
Eh, plenty of people, human rights groups etc etc, i've already found some stuff from non-religious sites with figures etc, although nothing in the magnitude you seem to be insinuating.
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Originally posted by 01010
Also, when did the world turn a blind eye to the Holocaust? I was always under the impression that nobody outside of allied secret services had any idea as to what was going on.
The persecutions etc that preceded the Holocaust were widely known, the actual mass killings and such took place during ww2 and as such were less widely known.
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That's pretty much how I understood it. Personally I take holocaust as the murders of the jews, gypsies, blacks, gays etc... and not so much the persecution.
Actually, this is something else that gets my goat, whilst the holocaust was terrible for the jews and I'll never deny that, I get frustrated that they act as the only victim, last time I checked the facts 16 million civillians were murdered by the Nazis and only 6 million were jews.
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Originally posted by Gank
Rome was a religious regime, ever heard of Jupiter, Saturn, etc etc :rolleyes: Nazi Germany wasnt atheist, the vast majority of its population was protestant, Russia didnt really persecute people per say, more discriminated against mildly.
As I said, Rome eventually became "worship the emperor", but I concede that's not the best example.
When I say "regime", that's exactly what I mean - the government, not the people. The governments of the U.S.S.R., China, and North Korea were/are officially athiestic, and yet they murdered millions of people.And if you look at the whole of history, its always been religious groups persecuting others, there were no atheist regimes till the last century.
That's probably true, at least "officially"; perhaps not unofficially. But the 20th century more than made up for it.
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OMG STOP PERSECUTING GOOBER!!1!11
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:lol:
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Originally posted by Goober5000
As I said, Rome eventually became "worship the emperor", but I concede that's not the best example.
When I say "regime", that's exactly what I mean - the government, not the people. The governments of the U.S.S.R., China, and North Korea were/are officially athiestic, and yet they murdered millions of people.That's probably true, at least "officially"; perhaps not unofficially. But the 20th century more than made up for it.
Funny thing is if I was to say the same thing in reverse, I'd be accused of flamming or discriminating other people, funny isn't it?
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Actually, athiest regimes are responsible for the vast majority of persecutions. Nazi Germany. China. The U.S.S.R.
strawman.
they persecuted not because of religion but because they were repressive regimes.
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@Ghostavo: I'm not sure what you mean. Try saying it in reverse, and then I'll clarify my own post with regards to it.
@Crazy_Ivan80: It's not a strawman argument at all. A repressive regime is going to persecute and stamp out any resistance. Doesn't matter if it's religious or not.
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Also, isn't a repressive regime defined by it's repression? So if it didn't do it to people, it wouldn't be oppressive ;)
Perseuction of all types goes on, as I said before, I think it's in Nigeria where Muslim and Christian groups are fighting. I suppose, in the strictest definition, those who die on both sides are Martyrs.
It's a stupid, senseless fight, and they are pointless Martyrs, but they do exist. It's not so much 'regime oppression' as 'regime ignorance', either deliberate, or through lack of policing.
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Stunning. So we've established religion causes nothing but trouble? Good, now lets start burning temples..
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Originally posted by Goober5000
[B@Crazy_Ivan80: It's not a strawman argument at all. A repressive regime is going to persecute and stamp out any resistance. Doesn't matter if it's religious or not. [/B]
yes it is a strawman because of the way you worded your argument. You basically said these regimes were repressive because they were atheist. Something which is blatant nonsense, as you know.
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@Goober5000
Quoted in reverse
As I said, *atheist government* eventually became "worship the *governor*", but I concede that's not the best example.
When I say "regime", that's exactly what I mean - the government, not the people. The governments of the *insert religious governments* were/are officially *insert religion*, and yet they murdered millions of people. That's probably true, at least "officially"; perhaps not unofficially. But the *insert centuries of religious persecution by other religious* more than made up for it.
A post with this kind of reasoning would get me flamed or perhaps worse. It sounds like you are trying to forgive the persecution at the hands of religious people by saying "Well, they (atheists) did this too!". If anyone in this forum were to say the same thing in reverse "Well, they (religious) did this too!" would get flamed or worse.
Basicly what Crazy_Ivan80 is trying to say in his above post.
That said, if you want to blame USSR, China, etc... for persecuting people (which I would probably agree with you), don't say it was because they were atheists, but because they were repressive.
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This is quite right.
France has an Atheistic government (US should too in theory) but religions aren't oppressed... They just keep them away from anything managed by the state (like it should be everywhere).
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@Ghostavo: I'm not trying to excuse anyone persecuting anybody else. I'm merely trying to establish facts. The governments that killed the most people in the 20th century (in peacetime) were Nazi Germany, the U.S.S.R., and China. And these governments were headed by people who did not believe in any God or any gods.
@Zarax: Whoa, whoa, what did you say just now? The US should have an athiestic government? That hardly matches the "separation of church and state" doctrine; athiesm is an official stance toward religion. The proper separation would have a government witholding any sort of speculation or comment one way or the other.
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Atheism simply means absence of god...
The fact that the term is misused doesn't change that.
Being a grammar inquisitor you should know the difference between atheist and antitheist, which is what the old USSR and chinese doctrine stands for :p
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I remember the time when priests really lived thgeir faith - 15 years ago, in my own town there were still ones who didn't have anything. Yep, the priests had NOTHING save the clothes they wore and their churches were'nt all nifty and tidy.
Nowdays priests TEND to have big bellys, expensive cars, the churches are well decorated and they constantly ask money for more improvements....
Capitalisam is killing the soul...meh...
Oh, as far as I'm concerned, separating religion from state is no better then not separating them. It all depends on the religion and those onn power.
Now that christiantiy finally got over some of the great mistakes of hte past, a christianic government would actually be rather nice.
And the same about democracy - it's only a illusion. Freedom is relative.
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Well, having an effective separation keeps politicians from listening to all kinds of fundies ;)
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Originally posted by Zarax
Atheism simply means absence of god...
The fact that the term is misused doesn't change that.
Being a grammar inquisitor you should know the difference between atheist and antitheist, which is what the old USSR and chinese doctrine stands for :p
That's not quite right. Athiest means "no god" and antitheist means "against god". So if you're an antithiest, you're a Satanist. :p
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
@Goober5000
A post with this kind of reasoning would get me flamed or perhaps worse. It sounds like you are trying to forgive the persecution at the hands of religious people by saying "Well, they (atheists) did this too!". If anyone in this forum were to say the same thing in reverse "Well, they (religious) did this too!" would get flamed or worse.
Basicly what Crazy_Ivan80 is trying to say in his above post.
That said, if you want to blame USSR, China, etc... for persecuting people (which I would probably agree with you), don't say it was because they were atheists, but because they were repressive.
why try to lay blame? we know people calling themselves christians or muslims or whatever organised religions went on massacres, and so did atheists. human nature's not a pretty thing, and the only fault lies at our own feet, not at the feet of whatever god/gods/no-god we profess to believe in.
we were talking about something similar to this in church the other day, and someone made the point that we in western countries actually have it harder in terms of true christianity, because we have so much material wealth, we find it harder to give stuff up, to speak out and be mocked, that kinda thing. those being persecuted have nothing in the first place, so they can give everything to God, and thus are seen as truer christians.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Oh, as far as I'm concerned, separating religion from state is no better then not separating them. It all depends on the religion and those onn power.
Now that christiantiy finally got over some of the great mistakes of hte past, a christianic government would actually be rather nice.
And the same about democracy - it's only a illusion. Freedom is relative.
Get over the great mistakes of the past? That's a nice idea, especially since people of all religions have been making the same mistakes for the entire history of human civilization. If you make one creed the government, you provide an instant carte blanche for the persecution of anyone who has an idea that conflicts with that creed. The people in power will decide how the religion is interpreted, and then come the Thought Police to enforce their executive decisions. The people who question ideas taken for granted are silenced. Art becomes immoral. Not going to church becomes a capital offense. Human instinct becomes shut up in tighter and tighter boxes until it just won't fit anymore. Then, eventually, when the people are tired of losing the sovereignty of their own thoughts, tired of being afraid to write a poem, crack a joke, or masturbate in their rooms, they explode, and the government collapses. I don't care how benevolent the religion's intentions are. People as a whole are predictable. It will always happen.
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yeah, don't mix state and religion, probably not the best idea in the world. when you force people to believe something, you actually create unbelief in those same people. why else are there so many so-called christians in america now, who don't live by the tenets of Christ, who don't read the bible, and who in fact are virtually agnostics (as in, 'God is irrelevant to me' rather than the atheist 'there is no God')? american constitution, afaik, was heavily based on christian principles. the pledge itself swears by God. yet now people are protesting all that.
state + religion = not good.
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The pledge is not that old, and "under god" was only added to assert a distinction between god-fearin' American folk and the antitheistic Soviet government.
And the Constitution draws most of its principles either from Enlightenment political theorists such as Locke and Rousseau, from English legal tradition, or simply from a reaction against the idea of monarchy. It's a down-to-earth document. I think it's a stretch to associate it with any religious principles.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
@Ghostavo: I'm not trying to excuse anyone persecuting anybody else. I'm merely trying to establish facts. The governments that killed the most people in the 20th century (in peacetime) were Nazi Germany, the U.S.S.R., and China. And these governments were headed by people who did not believe in any God or any gods.
Except, for the last time, Nazi Germany was not an atheist government or else:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Economics_and_culture
Hitler's policies emphasised the importance of family life: men were the breadwinners, womens' priorities being "church, kitchen and children."
Atheists that I know of are not interested in church...
EDIT:
Where on earth did you learn that Nazi Germany was an atheist state?
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Originally posted by Goober5000
That's not quite right. Athiest means "no god" and antitheist means "against god". So if you're an antithiest, you're a Satanist. :p
Goob, if you're a sathanist you're not an antitheist.
You're simply worshipping another entity (and such you're religious again, even though in a very twisted way).
Being antitheist means you go against any form of worshipping.
Do not let religion twist the word meaning ;)
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I'm not seeing any temple burning, my pretties. Come on now.
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Temples are beautiful things. I just don't believe anything that's said inside them.
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It rings rather hollow to me. The words of the fictional character in this piece are bitter and resentful, not speaking in loving rebuke, or holding hypocritical listeners accountable. I KNOW people, personally, who have been imprisoned, persecuted, threatened, suffered pain and hardships, merely because they believed in Jesus Christ and followed him. I had the honor just this morning of hearing a 75 year old man speak in broken English of his harsh imprisonment in a Soviet block country, followed by his banishment from his home. I have spoken with somone who was shot at by government helicoptor gunships in Sudan and chased by them into the wilderness when he tried to deliver medical supplies and Bibles to a village (the village was burnt and destoryed). I know a family from Thiland who received death threats- someone even attempted to poison them. But none of these people were bitter or resentful. They were amazing peacful and calm. They were incredibly thankful for the prayers and support of Christans in the West. They seek to hold us accountable, yes, they desire that we should be as passionate, sold-out, genuine, and full of love, whether or not we experience direct physical persecution, but they love us as brothers and sisters. Perhaps we are spiritual weaklings compared to them-no, not perhaps. Almost certainly. But they teach and encourage, they urge and love. They do not hate faliable men. They know that their fight is not against flesh and blood.
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There's being fallable and then there's being an outright bunch of slack jawed wasters.
While I'm no one's side in all this (aside from that which burns temples), I think the character in it had a good point.