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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vyper on February 03, 2005, 03:53:52 pm

Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: vyper on February 03, 2005, 03:53:52 pm
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=1WVICQ0XU4FKWCRBAEOCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=666347

[q]A senior U.S. Marine Corps general who said it was "fun to shoot some people" should have chosen his words more carefully but will not be disciplined, military officials say.[/q]

Now, it may seem wrong on the surface, but read the rest of it...

[q]"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil," Mattis said during a panel discussion. "You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."[/q]

I'd say he's probably right.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Taristin on February 03, 2005, 03:57:23 pm
People really like to take things out of context.
If I was taken seriously all the times I said things like that, I'd've been in trouble loong ago. People need to chill out, I think.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 03:59:09 pm
Well, depends if they were trying to shoot him, I guess.

I can understand how he could say such a thing without thinking, but I guess it would have been better to say 'It was hard not to feel some kind of retribution in shooting them'.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Taristin on February 03, 2005, 04:02:48 pm
C'mon. That's why he's in the military. The military doesn't teach you eloquence in your wording. It's not there to make you politically correct. It teaches you how to fight, and kill.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 04:03:53 pm
It doesnt teach you to enjoy it.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Taristin on February 03, 2005, 04:05:35 pm
No, for some that's an added bonus. :p

And that's the thing. Alot of people joined up to kill. After 9/11, alot of people wanted retribution. And they're trying to justify it, now.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 04:09:28 pm
Most countries put people who find it fun to shoot people in jail you know.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Taristin on February 03, 2005, 04:11:33 pm
Oh? So they pre-emptively lock you up, even if you have never committed a crime, but you think it'd be fun?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 04:19:51 pm
Err, no, this isnt minority report.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: vyper on February 03, 2005, 04:28:19 pm
Look Gank, you know I'm usually on the liberal side but if you saw some asshole you know was slapping his wife about for x many years, now acting like a wide boy and you had full combat gear on.... come on now.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 04:30:21 pm
I suppose my concern is, how did the guy the know which guys slapped their wives and which didn't?

If we are talking GI mentality here, then possibly he thought all arabs beat their wives etc?

I'd like a little more clarification, that's all :)
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 04:32:51 pm
And how exactly does this guy know the people hes shooting have been slapping their wives around for years? Its bollox vyper, a poor attempt to justify getting enjoyment from the killing of others.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Taristin on February 03, 2005, 04:42:56 pm
That's the point I was trying to make, but going through a different route. :p

I wasn't justifying his pleasure killing, but trying to explain that people are too critical of stupid remarks.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: vyper on February 03, 2005, 04:45:51 pm
You can pretty much say wtih certainty the Taliban treated their women like ****. Hell most of Afghanistan still has the same culture.

Governments change, people don't.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 04:52:02 pm
So how does he know when its fun and when it isnt?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 04:51:55 pm
The question is, I suppose, did these deaths take place in combat with people who they assumed slap their wives, or did they shoot people because they assumed they slapped their wives?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Taristin on February 03, 2005, 04:54:05 pm
When he's getting an erection every time he pulls the trigger. He's enjoying it.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 04:58:51 pm
Or maybe they're testing the Gay Gas :nervous:

Seriously though, it was a really stupid, thoughtless comment to make, brimming over with assumption and indoctrination, but it was also a strangely honest glimpse into the mind of some of the people out there.

That scares me.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 05:06:45 pm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1/aztlan_thief_host_your_own_video_iraqiwar.wmv
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 05:23:26 pm
As I feared, one-sided Quasar....
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 06:04:12 pm
:wakka:

Gank, sometimes you're just too much. :lol:

(not referring to video, which I find disturbing)
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 06:07:45 pm
And you're too little.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: vyper on February 03, 2005, 06:09:58 pm
Leave cocks out of it lads.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 06:10:14 pm
Specify.

If you're gonna insult me, do it right ;)
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 06:16:37 pm
Insult you? Thats not an insult, leave your insecurities out of it.

And specify yourself, too much how?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 06:20:51 pm
It's just that every time a thread like this pops up, it seems like you've got a stick up your ass (no offense intended).

It gets kinda funny (if predictable). I practically knew what your first post in this thread would be about before you even posted :D
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 06:26:10 pm
Right, and you think I care why?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 06:28:41 pm
Never said I did. I was just answering your question. :)
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 06:31:10 pm
If you find what I have to say funny why did you say this:
(not referring to video, which I find disturbing)?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 06:37:45 pm
Because, whereas I can read this guys full quote and understand (to an extent) where he's coming from:

Quote
Fun to shoot some people

Guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil


, the vid features unecessary killing and a guy with dental issues saying "Lets do it again!"

I can identify with the first guy more easily (I wouldn't mind pumping a few bullets into someone like he described), even if he appears slightly misguided.

And I don't think he's referring to all Iraqi's when he makes the description.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 06:41:51 pm
And how exactly does he know which ones are fun to shoot or not? If hes not reffering to all Iraqis how does he know when hes shooting at a wifebeater or not?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 06:50:36 pm
Dunno. 'tis just the impression I got.

Maybe he doesn't know. Maybe he assumes that the Iraqis with the guns and bombs are such. Like I said, probably somewhat misguided.

It's easier to do violence when you feel it's justified.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 07:04:16 pm
Yeah but hes not trying to justify the killing, hes trying to justify getting enjoyment from it.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 07:11:49 pm
Well, to be completely honest, if I thought I was killing "bad people," I'd probably enjoy it too. :nervous:
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Rictor on February 03, 2005, 07:23:08 pm
A trigger-happy cowboy in the military?

I'm shocked, simply shocked! Who would have ever expected such a thing?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 07:28:54 pm
So if somebody told you americans hang black men for kicks you'd enjoy gunning down any US soldier you came across?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 07:53:04 pm
No. But if I did kill someone I strongly suspected of hanging black men for kicks, then yes I'd likely enjoy it.

EDIT: Let me clarify- No, I wouldn't enjoy it if someone just told that to me out of the blue. However, if there was more evidence to back up that statement, then yes, I'd likely enjoy killing whoever I strongly suspected of it.

Not just soldiers, either. If there was, say, a mob of civilians lynching people, then I'd likely enjoy it just as much.

I sound a bit like a psychopath, don't I?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 07:56:26 pm
Due Process, it's one of the things I truly agree with about law, and that's innocent until proven guilty.

That said, when faced with a situation as you say, it is hard not to let your need for personal vengeance overtake the need for due process.

Anyway, I'll butt out now ;)
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: vyper on February 03, 2005, 08:02:03 pm
Alright, to take us away from the Iraq context and speak more generically:

You were one of the soldiers who found Beslan concentration camp. You see everything there is to see there. You have your British rifle in hand, and find some German guards.

What do you do?

Spoiler:
In reality, there were quite a few "unexplained" dead guards around afterwards
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 08:02:57 pm
Torture them. Slowly.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Nix on February 03, 2005, 08:06:44 pm
Maybe everyone would feel better if he would have used the word - " TERRORISTS " instead of "some people".  Course, that'd be too easy.  Everyone would be complaining about how he knows the difference between an innocent and a terrorist!  :rolleyes:
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 08:11:23 pm
Indeed, it's easy to judge when you see dead people, some of them friends. around you and there is someone to blame nearby...You'll note the Deaths were unexplained though ;) I think Ganks problem is more the fact he said it was fun to do so.

Theres a huge media gap here, I'll admit, maybe if WW2 had got the coverage Iraq got, we'd have seen a side of the army none of us liked (in fact, I know this would be the case).

See, the problem words aren't 'some' and 'people', it's 'killing' and 'fun'.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 03, 2005, 08:14:13 pm
In my view, it's unavoidable that soldiers will enjoy shooting people because humans, like all animals, get high on violence and testosterone. What pisses me off is how they take such pride in being animals. This desire is the very antithesis of civilization, and this pig is bragging about it.

Nothing ever changes.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 08:14:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
No. But if I did kill someone I strongly suspected of hanging black men for kicks, then yes I'd likely enjoy it.

EDIT: Let me clarify- No, I wouldn't enjoy it if someone just told that to me out of the blue. However, if there was more evidence to back up that statement, then yes, I'd likely enjoy killing whoever I strongly suspected of it.

Not just soldiers, either. If there was, say, a mob of civilians lynching people, then I'd likely enjoy it just as much.

I sound a bit like a psychopath, don't I?


Well yes, you shouldnt really enjoy it, that does make you a psychopath. You might deem it neccessary to kill them, but finding it fun makes you a bit of a sadist. This guy here is saying its fun to kill them because they beat their wives, but he has no way of knowing which ones of them actually do that, which ones of them say look honey, best put that thing on before the mullah takes a fit and which ones have wives with traditional muslim beliefs who actually believe they should wear a burkha and do so out of choice. Basically hes just saying its fun to shoot people, and using a broad generalisation to justify it.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 03, 2005, 08:18:55 pm
Note: I said I might enjoy it. Not that I'd actually do it.

Just wanted to clarify. ;)
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 08:21:40 pm
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Alright, to take us away from the Iraq context and speak more generically:

You were one of the soldiers who found Beslan concentration camp. You see everything there is to see there. You have your British rifle in hand, and find some German guards.

What do you do?
 


Lets put this in a bit more appropriate context, if you were stationed somewhere else, and heard about Beslan, and came across soem German soldiers, what would you do?

Bear in mind the soldiers, like the majority of the taliban were conscripts, had no say in overall policy and there was no evidence to suggest they took part in it or even agreed with it. Ok to have fun killing them then?

btw vyper its these sort of attitudes, the all these people are evil, that led to stuff like the holocaust.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: vyper on February 03, 2005, 08:30:23 pm
If I'd seen Beslan...  I wouldn't wait for them to surrender. I'd just plain avoid the possibility.

Frankly I don't see how you couldn't. It's easy to sit here and speak rationally of how to judge other people, but put yourself in that kind of situation... things change.

I'm not saying this guy's attitude was completely right, but I can say I understand it. If you saw some asshole with an AK47 striding about like he's teh sh1t!11 and you _knew_ what type of person he was instinctively (which people can do) - you'd shoot.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Nix on February 03, 2005, 08:32:29 pm
Well I guess we'll always have people on both sides bashing and defending Generals who use broad generalizations to justify thier comments.  There really is no point, cause with these convienent broad generalizations, anyone can take a stand on any side of the issue and say they're right.

Unfortunately, if it looks like a terrorist, acts like a terrorist, and it is part of an oppressive and nearly terroristic group, we should kill the terrorist, regardless if the soldier taking out the terrorist gets a little enjoyment out of it.  Tolerating a group like the taliban to operate will result in more radical groups of terrorists, some which may make the Nazi's in WWII look like people commiting misdemeanor crimes.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 03, 2005, 08:37:03 pm
... (Don't mention the CCCP) ;)
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 03, 2005, 08:41:00 pm
Riight vyper, its the middle of a warzone, bullets are flying about the place and you know which ones are the real bad guys because they're swaggering around like they own the shop. Bollocks.

And omg kill the terrorists :rolleyes:
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 03, 2005, 08:58:49 pm
Like I said before, almost anyone can take pleasure in killing someone. What I find troubling is that the guy is bragging about it like it's a really awesome thing. Whether you're killing the average nobody or killing a mass murderer, killing is not something that I think should be taken lightly.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Rictor on February 04, 2005, 06:24:29 am
No, you have to be taught to like killing. Humans are the only animal that kills for sport (not out of necessity).

So they beat their wives you say? Yeah, so does a not unsignificant portion of Europe and America, not to mention the rest of the world. Horrible, yes, but the US military can hardly take the moral high ground.

I don't think it really has anything to do with the soldier's concerns about the welfare of Aghan women. There was no such situation in Iraq, and that didn't stop anyone from treating the country like one big free fire zone. The trick is to make yourself completely righteous and thr enemy completely evil, so when you start going around shooting people, its not so hard. This reminds me of another comment made by a US soldier, on the eve of the second Fallujah attack. Something along the lines of: "The devil lives in Fallujah, and we're going in to kill him."
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Styxx on February 04, 2005, 06:39:11 am
FPSs taught me that it's fun to kill people. ;)

And you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. So he thinks it's fun? Good for him, it's his job - as long as he follows his orders and the rules of engagement defined by his superiors, the fact that he's enjoying it has no bearing whatsoever on the situation. Soldiers, at least on civilized countries, are not warriors, they're workers. Wouldn't you rather have a job that you think is fun than one that's boring or revolting?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 04, 2005, 09:15:34 am
Well when you enjoy something its easier to do it no? So if you're faced with a situation where its not clear whether you should shoot or not you'd be more inclined to pull the trigger. Take the yahoos in the video above for example, they're breaking the geneva convention and enjoying it, and doing it with a camera pointed at them. And here you have a general condoning this.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Styxx on February 04, 2005, 10:06:45 am
Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Well when you enjoy something its easier to do it no?

Of course - that's true for any profession.

Quote
Originally posted by Gank
So if you're faced with a situation where its not clear whether you should shoot or not you'd be more inclined to pull the trigger.

True. But in general soldiers are taught to do that regardless. When your orders and ROE don't specify an action (therefore making it unclear if you should fire or not) the preservation of your unit should be the overriding concern. If the orders are unclear to begin with, then it's not the soldier's fault for enjoying to do what he was trained, and is paid to do.

Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Take the yahoos in the video above for example, they're breaking the geneva convention and enjoying it, and doing it with a camera pointed at them. And here you have a general condoning this.

If the soldiers disobeyed an order, they should be punished for it. But reprimanding them for enjoying to do what they're supposed to do is senseless. If you want an army of soldiers who all despise killing, you should forbid volunteering and go back to the draft, and only select those draftees who try hardest to avoid it.

I don't have earphones here, though, so I don't know what exactly is happening at the video. Do you have a transcript?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: vyper on February 04, 2005, 11:18:42 am
Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Riight vyper, its the middle of a warzone, bullets are flying about the place and you know which ones are the real bad guys because they're swaggering around like they own the shop. Bollocks.

And omg kill the terrorists :rolleyes:


Now that was a well thought out argument - are you forgetting where I usually stand on issues involving "terrorists"?

I was discussing a situation where it's not immediate combat.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 04, 2005, 11:27:10 am
The thing is, it's like any situation in which you feel your life is threatened (and yes, they don't look very threatened, but I'm talking about the bodies chemical reaction, not the physical situation), your body gets flooded with testoserone and other stuff that turns you into DS.

I am concerned that the army are sending out a message that it's OK to enjoy it. Yes, they will enjoy it, it's a survival technique, Grandad told me some stories that sound terrible out of context, but when you place him in the trenches, seeing friends around him dying every day, thinking that at any single second in the 24 hours could be your last... The Lizard Brain takes over, and the power rush is... intoxicating.

America had a lot of problems after Vietnam with soldiers who had been so used to living right on the very edge of their nerves that 'normal' life seemed boring and complacent, so they sought out danger, some became criminals, others recluses, some just went mad. I don't like the idea of encouraging soldiers towards that kind of fate again.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 04, 2005, 11:27:37 am
that wasnt aimed at you, the other fella who was going on about them.

And how many situations can you invisage where this guy is going to come into contact with ak wielding swaggering iraqi/afghanis hardos where its not immediate combat?
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 04, 2005, 03:23:28 pm
Quote
No, you have to be taught to like killing. Humans are the only animal that kills for sport (not out of necessity).

I entirely disagree. Lust for violence is one of the things that characterizes all animal behavior. "Killing for sport" is the term we apply to doing what comes naturally. Violence isn't supposed to be necessary because civilization strives to find a way around it, but in my view, our nature compels us to do what all animals do: Destroy what we don't like. We enjoy it because there is something extremely liberating about obeying primal urges; it's no different from having sex or eating when you're hungry.

In my opinion, we've nothing to lose by at least trying to overcome the nature that governs us, but I don't think most people truly appreciate how little control we have over anything we do, (in large part because we rarely admit to others, or to ourselves, what the true emotional motivation behind our actions is.) The intellect, the portion of us from which civilization stems, is extremely fragile. We are the pawns of our chemical reactions.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: TrashMan on February 04, 2005, 03:44:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect

I entirely disagree. Lust for violence is one of the things that characterizes all animal behavior. "Killing for sport" is the term we apply to doing what comes naturally. Violence isn't supposed to be necessary because civilization strives to find a way around it, but in my view, our nature compels us to do what all animals do: Destroy what we don't like. We enjoy it because there is something extremely liberating about obeying primal urges; it's no different from having sex or eating when you're hungry.


Utter bull....

Animal don't "Destroy what they don't like". They destroy to eat and survive.

A lion with a full stomach won't even look at a antilope grazing ten feet away.

It's not the kill that releases intoxicating chamichals, but rather the danger, the thrill of the chase.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 04, 2005, 03:47:33 pm
You're forgetting that lions don't just kill their prey; they kill lions from other prides. Male lions will frequenly go out of their ways to confront other prides and slaughter the cubs. To bring it closer to home, chimpanzees exhibit the most brutal behavior not toward other animals, but toward each other. It may be a survival mechanism, but my assertion is that the very act of satisfying an instinct generates what we call enjoyment.

If anything, civilization brings it out in us more. Without the need for survival as an outlet, we're stuck with these instincts and nowhere to direct them. So we shoot each other.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: aldo_14 on February 04, 2005, 04:25:31 pm
Also, domesticated cats kill for fun too, anyways.........

My view is that it isn't right to say killing people is fun especially when you have, because it is likely (or at least as likely as TV, movies, or video games) to make others want to find out.....

(bbc source; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4234751.stm)

It's best to mention the other comment too (if not already)
[q]During the discussion, he spoke of his experience fighting in Iraq as commander of the 1st Marine Division.

Caught on tape, he said: "Actually, it's quite a lot of fun to fight; you know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling; it's fun to shoot some people."

In the context of Afghanistan, he said men who slapped around women for not wearing a veil had no manhood and it was fun to shoot them.
[/q]
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: karajorma on February 04, 2005, 04:27:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


Utter bull....

Animal don't "Destroy what they don't like". They destroy to eat and survive.


Quote

From the BBCs Horizon  (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2004/demonicapetrans.shtml)website

Prof RICHARD WRANGHAM (Harvard University): You get incredibly excited when you watch chimps hunting, and all the sympathy that otherwise one might expect to feel for the poor prey just goes out of the window because you identify so strongly with the chimpanzee. They are so intent and they are so excited, the passion that they feel is just so extraordinary. Then they settle down in to eating it and you have a time to reflect on, on what is actually happening. And you realise that this is a very extraordinary behaviour because there is far more meat eating going on in chimpanzees than there is in any other species of primate than humans.

NARRATOR: Goodall’s discovery was a revelation. But then she found out they did something else that was far more chilling, they killed their own kind. In the sixties the group that Goodall studied split in to two fractions, Kasakela & Kahama. The rivalry between the two turned in to a bloody civil war.

Prof RICHARD WRANGHAM: It was in January of 1974 that we first had this report of one of the males in Kahama, Hodi, being attacked by a group from Kasakela. He jumped out of the tree, he ran but they got him, somebody got a foot, somebody got a hand, they pinned him down and then they beat on top of him. The attack went on for more than five minutes and by the time they let him go you could hardly crawl away. And Hodi was never seen again.

NARRATOR: One by one the males in the Kasakela group killed every male and some of the females in their neighbouring group. Only a few years before the victims had been their constant companions. In total a third of all male deaths at Gombe were at the hands of other chimpanzees. Richard Wrangham’s student Martin Muller recently discovered how brutal chimpanzees could be.

Prof MARTIN MULLER (Michigan University): It was in August of 1988, so we were with our ten males and they were patrolling. We could hear them screaming and very excited, and we heard them pounding, it sounded like they were pounding on the ground. And we realised that, that our chimps were with a chimp from their neighbouring community that they had killed and the pounding that they were doing was on his body, they were still pounding on his chest, and it was horrific. The whole front of the, of the chimpanzee was covered with thirty or forty puncture wounds and lacerations, the, the ribs were sticking up out of the rib cage because they’d, they’d beaten on his chest so hard. They’d ripped his trachea out, they’d removed his testicles, they’d torn off toe nails and finger nails, and it was clear what had happened, was that some of the males had held him down while the others attacked.

NARRATOR: Slowly it dawned on scientists that chimpanzees were not like us just because they could think, reason and use tools. They were like us because they could be cruel.

Prof RICHARD WRANGHAM: There is a sense in which this looks sadistic, the, the joy, this is kind of hard to take you know because again it’s got horrible echoes of what happens with humans at times. The males who attack, they do seem to take a certain joy in the attack, their drinking of the blood sometimes, or the biting, gripping with the teeth of the skin on part of the arm and then rearing the head back and taking the skin with it and tearing it all the way around. They look as though they’re in a state of, of intense excitement and maybe joy.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 04, 2005, 04:30:38 pm
Dont forget the mink, them things will have a go at anything for no reason at all.

*had a run in with one
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 04, 2005, 05:11:39 pm
Stoats as well, vicious little devils, damn things'll have your fingers, hungry or not.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 04, 2005, 05:16:02 pm
Stoats arent so bad, they'll run if they see you, the mink will sit there watching you then follow you for over a mile. bad bad little ****ing bstards, lost 3 rabbits and a cat to one of the ****ers.
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Flipside on February 04, 2005, 05:19:46 pm
Ouch! We don't get much trouble with Minks round here, but we Did have a Lynx loose in the Park nearby for a good few months before the RSPCA finally caught it with drugged meat.

It's at times like that a pair of Mink Gloves sounds like an appealing idea ;)

Edit : Actually the whole 'drugged meat' thing was hilarious, in the first three days of putting it down they found a total of 12 cats unconcious around it and no Lynx. They finally had to ask all the cat-owners to keep their cats indoors until the thing had been caught :lol:
Title: Shooting People - Iraq
Post by: Gank on February 04, 2005, 06:27:38 pm
Theres a mink farm about 7-8 miles away, while back there was no demand for the furs so the owner let the whole lot go, now he buys them back at 20 euro a carcass. More trouble than they're worth to catch though.