Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Kie99 on February 14, 2005, 03:45:15 pm
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Well, post your theories here, I'll start with mine:
For the purposes of this theory SA means main Shivan Armada and LF means Lucifer fleet, Here goes:
The LF was a group of exiles sent out into the galaxy by SA because they were murderers. The SA didn’t know there were other species in the galaxy so they gave them 2 destroyers, The Eva & Lucifer. The LF enjoyed killing which is why they slaughtered the ancients. The LF had modified their supplies, which would last for 20,000 Years to form Shivan Super Laser, an Impervious Shield system and other weapons, which they mounted on their destroyers After the Ancients were destroyed the LF were bored for 8000 years and decided to launch all their weapons at the GTA and PVN, but the LF was destroyed and eventually eliminated completely.
32 years later a Racsh… Racshas… Shivan cruiser entered GTVA space and was immediately fired upon by the Terran cruiser. (I know the Command Briefing video contradicts this and shows the Shivan cruiser firing first, but it was unlikely to be actual footage of the battle because a massacre was implied) The SA wasn’t happy about the unprovoked murder of 5000 Shivans and immediately thought of the GTVA as an enemy. A few months later the SA captured Aken Bosch but, for the purposes of this discussion their communication was extremely crude. The SA didn’t understand Bosch but their ships were still being destroyed so they sent in a Sathanas to stop the attacks on their ships. Unfortunately it was destroyed, the Shivans were extremely angry at the Murder of 30,000 Shivans so they decided to send in a small portion of their fleet (80 Sathanes) to eliminate the GTVA entirely. At this time they managed to speak to and understand Bosch , Bosch told them about the LF and why we attacked them. The Shivans held an emergency meeting and decided that instead of wasting valuable resources going through all of their systems back to their homeworld where their fleet was they would use the Capella star as a Slingshot to get back to their Homeworld, in the process creating a nebula for the GTVA to take energy from as a peace offering, and a final farewell.
Q. Why were the GTVA ships attacked as they were evacuating Capella?
A. The attackers were rebels and relatives of Shivans killed during the war
Q. Why was the Bastion attacked?
A. The attackers were rebels and relatives of Shivans killed during the war
Q. What happened to Bosch
A. He was on one of the Cain class cruisers on the way to Vega, but was destroyed.
Q. Why did the SA have weapons
A. They wanted to be prepared in case they were ever attacked by an alien race.
Q. Anything Else
A. They're aliens :D
Stryke 9's theory:
Stryke 9’s theory
Nah, I think this proves my theory that the Sathani are Shivan trailer homes. See, they really just wanted to make friends with the Terrans this whole time, but due to an unfortunate culture gap and some preliminary spy reports collected durign the Terran-Vasudan war, the Shivans figured our primary method of communication involved focusing high-density plasma charges into each other. Thus, Lucifer scout fleet showed up and transmitted the message "We come in peace", wiping out all nearby. Hurt and confused at the Terrans' and Vasudans' panicked flight, they followed the GTA fleet to Vasuda Prime. Knowing an important populated planet when they saw one, what subsequently ensued was the equivalent of thousands of years of Shivan history, science, and literature broken up into several easy-to-understand blasts... Thirty years later, the Shivans spot Terrans in their nebula. Curious as to what happened to their peace delegation, they accost the first fleet they see and bombard them with questions. The Terrans return fire, and, overjoyed that contact has finally been made, the Shivans mobilize their colony ships, ordering them to set up a permanent base around the nearest Terran star where Shivans and Terrans (and Vasudans, who the Shivans assumed were just more Terrans) could trade, communicate, and live in harmony. Up to the death of the Colossus, the Shivans maintained their good intentions, though they had to admit that maintaining good relations with the Terrans seemed to be getting an awful lot of them killed. It was only when the Terrans sealed off the first Capella jump node that the Shivans guessed that something was amiss. Slowly the idea formed that maybe we WEREN'T friendly, after all. Hurt by this possible breach of trust, the Shivans sent out one last delegate, headed on what they last knew as a route to the Sol system and the capitol of Terran government, housed in a Cain class executive transport. When diplomatic talks opened up prematurely and destroyed the Cain and the diplomat before a meeting, let alone consensus, could be achieved. Shocked and disgusted by the treachery of the Terrans, the Sathanas fleet blew up the Capella star in the universal signal for "farewell", which they hoped would eventually reach the remaining Terrans in other systems, and returned home, never to be seen by Terrans again.
And here is the Shivan Manifesto by Antares: Clicky Clicky (//dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22279)
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Oh come on, how many of these need to appear, go click the search button, this thread was filled with Shivan theories, go look at that one http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,29185.0.html
EDIT: Hey, wait a sec, you've already posted your theory somewhere...the fact you've posted it twice now make me bitterly angry...ye shall suffer.
2nd EDIT: Ye Gods, you've already tried this before http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,27756.0.html
Gunnery control, target kietotheworld, initiate plasma core insertion, FIRE
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Lucifer shield and no beam pierce flag initiated! There have been a lot of newbs recently, and they might have more theories that we haven't heard before. BTW this is the third time I posted it if you include sectorgame. *runs behind shield*
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I think the shivans that we know of are little more than worker drones... they seem artificially modified to be adapted to many tasks... which would explain their 'compound' design. Deep into shivan space there will be a small number of 'intelligent' beings that are controlling the entire shivan population. There may be one of these on the flagship of a fleet e.g. the Lucifer. Basically they harvest all resources they encounter and expand.
The Lucifer fleet was little more than a scouting wave... to decide what resources were available in a sector and try to wipe out any local resistance. It says after the Lucifer was wiped out the Shivans in the area became disoriented... because their controller was destroyed.
The destruction of the Lucifer angered the controllers of the Shivans. Although the Lucifer was a tiny ship compared to Juggernauts/larger structures in Shivan space something like it had never been destroyed before.
The controllers of the Shivans decide to send a small initial force through Gamma Draconis to concentrate the GTVA forces in the Capella area. The 'invasion' of Shivan space through the Knossos angers them further. Then they send through a huge force of 80 juggernauts (but still this is a small proportion of their fleet) to wipe out everything. The Lucifer isn't capable of supernovaing a star itself...
The juggernauts supernova Capella cos it has many humans inhabiting that system, Gamma Draconis is uninhabited. Most go into subspace to avoid the explosion... eventually they would reemerge near a jump node and move further into GTVA space. Some remain to sustain the subspace field long enough for the star to nova while allowing enough time for the others to retreat to safety.
Unfortunately for the Shivans they don't see the Bastion and Nereid as important enough to warrant a massive attack, or they are too slow to react. Their resources are spread too thin engaging convoys and supernovaing the star.
The GTVA are successful and the Shivans are trapped in Capella/Gamma Draconis/Their space, until they find another way in
Q: What happened to Bosch?
A: Probably taken away for study... or he might be seen as a worthy candidate to be a 'controller.'
I also think this thread is useless but i want my opinion down!
Target BFRed between kietotheworld's legs! Commence plasma core insertion! Fire!
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Ummm hello the Shivans were obviously following the orders of Supreme Galactic Dictator Snuffleupagus. :rolleyes:
:p
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I don't subscribe to this hive mind theory, if the Terrans had one command ship and then it got destroyed I think the terra fleet would be a little dis-orientated as well. (In the tech room it says the Shivan fleet behaved weirdly after the Destruction of the Lucifer and Eva.)
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Too many problems with that first theory. More than two destroyers were present in FS1 (Battle of the Titans anyone?) and the Shivans possessed a fairly powerful attack force before and after the ending of that game. It is mentioned that once the Lucifer was destroyed, the Shivans became increasingly erratic and were then subsequently hunted down and eliminated. The source of their incusion was never found (and may have been coming from multiple directions seeing as they appeared in a number of systems without subspace linkages or without presumably high traffic from GTA or PVN warships. ie. from Ross 128 to Antares to Ribos).
In FS2, the situation is different. The Shivans encounter the GTVA only because of a reopening of a Knossos portal that was previously closed to them. We have no idea where in the network of nodes that the Knossos portal links to. It may be that these Shivans are from a very different place in the galaxy than the ones that initially attacked (although they are undesputably part of the same overall group). But the motives are different here...they happen on the GTVA (and yes the Shivans do essentially fire first or are quick to trade fire with the Terran ships that they ran into) and persue a very different agenda. They are, after a time, aimed at the Capella star. So whatever their goals are...they are much larger than the GTVA.
Frankly, their behavior is in some ways so much the same and some ways so different that what you get is that the two groups had vastly different agendas (although behave in the same basic way - total xenophobic destruction) and seem to operate in entirely mysterious ways (why didn't the FS1 invasion locate the Knossos portal and reactivate it if Capella was an objective - or is this a new objective in the past 32 years).
There's lots of stuff to be considered....but be very careful in forming theories. Stuff like this:
The LF was a group of exiles sent out into the galaxy by SA because they were murderers. The SA didn’t know there were other species in the galaxy so they gave them 2 destroyers, The Eva & Lucifer.
Goes against what actually happens in the game. So when you form a theory and expect it to be accepted, you have to read all the tech briefings, all the mission reports, and take all of that canon information to synthesize something.
I'll also point out that both Adam Plecher and Jason Scott both expressed to me that I should not think of the Shivans as operating in the sort of "sane and rational" manner that we'd expect from humans (or Vasudans in the fictional sense). What motivates them and drives them is as much a mystery as everything else about them.
Concepts such as outcasts, revenge, retribution, sneak attacks, and the like probably mean very little to them.
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Stryke 9's theory still ranks as the best one, as well as providing inspiration for the spoof campaign we all know and love. :p
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My original theory was that the Shivans were fighting an xenophobic war against all life able to travel subspace, and that they met an equal foe. And that said foe was able to 'seed' planets to allow ships to grow within (and eventually use the life upon that planet to grow and consume, like a virus), so their aim in FS1 was to take out the life-rich planets where those ships were seeded (Vasuda Prime and Earth). And Bosch... i never really rationalised Bosch; he was basically taken for intelligence purposes.
A secondary, less imaginative (er....the above theory was far richer in it's original form) was that the Shivans are a nomadic race, living within vast Sathanas colony ships, searching for a route home - and when Bosch contacted them, they discovered they could use Capella for that. Albeit I'm not a particularly big fan of that either - it seems to literal. Plus the Shivans or someone have bigger ships; I'm sure there's an old interview with V (before THQ bought them) about the prospects of FS3, which mentioned ships large enough to have their own gravity well.
I have a better theory now, of course...
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:D
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Personally, I think there is a lot about Subspace that the Terrans and Vasudans don't know. I think theres something about Subspace that the Shivans are either fighting or defending.
The 'Bigger problem' has always seemed to me to be subspace itself, maybe we are using it in a 'dangerous' way or the like?
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Maybe the bigger problem is the warlike nature of the Terrans and Vasudans.
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Originally posted by Flipside
Personally, I think there is a lot about Subspace that the Terrans and Vasudans don't know. I think theres something about Subspace that the Shivans are either fighting or defending.
The 'Bigger problem' has always seemed to me to be subspace itself, maybe we are using it in a 'dangerous' way or the like?
Or maybe it wasn't intended for us in the first place.
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My best bet is the shivans are just doing all this becasue they have no reason not to, like in that book.. what's it called? the intruder??
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The shivans are a race from another dimension that feed directly on energy. Energy supplies in their home dimension ran low, and they went looking for new ones - and found them in out dimension, in subspace.
Unfortunately, Subspace Energy turned out to be tasty but intoxicating, and the current shivan behavior is part of a multimillenia alien bender.
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[heresy]Maybe there was never supposed to be an FS3 and we were supposed to be left with all these questions to keep us wondering forever.[/heresy]
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*burns Corsair at the stake*
Though I subscribe to the Shivan Manifesto for the most part (except energy beings, I need an explanation of how that's physically possible first), I do have a theory I've worked on as a hobby.
ngtm1r’s Shivan Theory
I'm starting to think that the Shivans aren't drawn to subspace disturbances, though they are attuned to them.
The Shivans are drawn to conflict. Perhaps they believe strongly in peace: strongly enough that they are ready, willing, and able to enforce it on those who are unwilling to be peaceful. For those who attract the attention of the Shivans receive the most absolute and final form of peace imaginable: that of being dead. Or maybe the Shivans just like a good fight.
The Shivans slaughtered the Ancients, but only after a long period of time in which the Ancients were slaughtering other folks. This would seem to contradict my premise, but note that I said the Shivans were drawn to conflict, not violence. That wording was intentional.
According to the Ancients monologues most of the species the Ancients wiped out didn't (or couldn't) put up much of a fight. (“They were like all the others, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only they were not like the others. They did not die.”) I can only guess, but maybe a little while before the Shivans came along there was a species that did put up a fight, not enough of one to stop the Ancients, but enough to bloody them.
In come the Shivans, drawn to the conflict, to destroy the combatants. They only find one standing, and wipe them out. The Ancients were not a peaceful race. At first they thought the Shivans were the wrath of an angry cosmos…but not all, apparently, since they kept looking for a weakness, and they found one eventually. They learned better.
Left alone, the Ancients would have expanded again, perhaps now with even greater xenocidial tendencies thanks to the Shivans nearly wiping them out. And when the Shivans sent a new expeditionary fleet to stop them, the Ancients would have possessed the means to destroy it. Clearly they had no intention of rolling over and playing dead. The Ancients would be back. The Shivans could be beaten, they were not the gods the Ancients first thought. (“We have little left. Little time. But much irony.” “But we have no way to deliever the hurt." )
8000 years later, we have the Terran-Vasudan War. It's a long one, 14 years, and so I would guess it was not a high-intensity war for most of that time. Around the time the Shivans show up, however, it had clearly escalated to a high-intensity war. (Look at the casualty figures for Operation Thresher, for example. That's a lot of people considering they're pilots. Had they been infantry, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but five hundred pilots is an awful lot to lose in one operation.)
And here come the Shivans again, determined to enforce a final solution to the question of Terran-Vasudan relations. Only they fail. The Terrans and Vasudans unite against them, and destroy the Shivan expeditionary fleet.
But, this may well have been viewed by the Shivans as a victory. They did not immediately withdraw once the Terrans and Vasudans had made peace with each other because that peace would have evaporated almost as quickly as it had been created. So the Shivans kept fighting. If they ultimately won, there would be a final, total peace. If they ultimately lost, but made a good fight of it, one that forced the Terrans and Vasudans to work together to the fullest, to support each other economically, militarily, and socially, to integrate, then the peace between the Terrans and Vasudans might well last.
32 years later, the NTF Rebellion breaks out. It does not attract the Shivans’ attention, however. Perhaps it would have eventually, but there is a short-circuit of that process. 17 months into the NTF Rebellion, the NTC Trinity activates the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis and enters the nebula.
We actually don't know who fired first in this case. We do know the Shivans fired first on the GTC Vigilant, but we do not know if the NTC Trinity fired first on the Shivans. I find it highly probable the Trinity encountered a Shivan patrol, which closed to look over this Terran ship that had somehow entered Shivan-controlled space. The Trinity, seeing Shivan ships and knowing what the Shivans did the last time they were in the neighborhood, interprets this as the Shivan patrol preparing to attack, and opens fire.
Now, the NTF Rebellion hasn't reached the level of conflict yet where the Shivans decide to intervene. But if you're going to show up in their space and attack them, they're going to respond in kind. The Shivans dispatch a probing force through the subspace portal to take a look around, set up a base camp on the other side, and in general prepare for a sortie. The Shivans, however, do not intend to attack the GTVA. They have no reason to, yet. The Shivans are out to get the NTF. Only they probably can’t tell those two factions apart very well, if at all.
The first Rakshasa into Vega encounters the GTC Vigilant. The Rakshasa, encountering what is probably a Terran ship, attacks, not realizing that it is attacking a GTVA ship and not an NTF one. After all, the Trinity had to come from somewhere, and Vega is the most likely candidate (Gamma Draconis was uncolonized and empty).
Now the GTVA knows the Shivans are back in town. And considering that both of the member races of the GTVA lost their homeworlds because of the Shivans, from the moment the Rakshasa fired on the Vigilant there was no chance of a peaceful resolution. There was little chance that the Shivans and GTVA could have come to a peaceful resolution before the Rakshasa attacked the Vigilant.
The GTVA now must do something with that information. They choose to act on it, swiftly, decisively. The Shivans were not all that powerful in the last invasion, only a few destroyers, a bunch of cruisers, and a lot of fighters. (In fact, probably only three or four destroyers: that's all Terran Command seemed to think that there were in FS1, and if they had many more then that how the GTA and PVN weren’t destroyed before they could get their act together is hard to comprehend.) The GTVA's military arm was built and trained for just this moment. There is no hesitation, and the order is given: Attack!
The Shivans, meanwhile, may or may not have realized their error in attacking the GTC Vigilant. At this point, it does not really matter. What they did not expect was the speed and power of the GTVA's counterattack. Vega Command hears the Vigilant's distress calls and tells the Carthage and Dashorto drop everything and head to the Gamma Draconis node. The Carthage and Dashor arrive on the scene at most a few minutes after the Vigilant is destroyed, perhaps less. The Carthage deploys fighter and bomber wings. Both it and the Dashor move to engage. The Rakshasa and its escorts never really have a chance.
This engagement gives the Shivans pause. The GTVA's ships are not the equal of their Shivan equivalents, but they are close, close enough that the difference is not insurmountable. The GTVA, meanwhile, is executing its preset war plans for second contact with the Shivans: attack with all available force, at once. They are confidant in their knowledge of Shivan ships and tactics, have trained and prepared for this battle for 32 years. They will prevail.
And prevail they do. Before the Shivans can fully digest the implications of the engagement at the Gamma Draconis node, the GTD Aquitaine arrives in Gamma Draconis and engages Shivan forces there. The Shivans are unprepared, and are driven before the Aquitaine's battlegroup or destroyed. The Aquitaine, moving at blitzkrieg pace, pushes on through the portal and engages Shivan forces in the nebula, pushing them back, inflicting heavy casualties.
The Shivans are shocked. This has never happened before. Not only has their planned offensive come a cropper before it ever got underway, a first in and of itself, but the offensive has actually been turned around on them as the GTVA pushes into the nebula.
Then suddenly, it stops. The GTVA stops pushing and merely starts to hold. The Shivans are mystified, but use the breather constructively, dispatching a Sathanas and supporting warships to push the GTVA back out of Shivan space and then end this fight in the usual Shivan fashion of annihilating all opposition. In reality, what the Shivans don't know is that the GTVA is in the process of dealing the deathblow to the NTF.
The Sathanas is coming, but it isn't there yet, when suddenly the GTVA explodes into action again, pushing harder then they had before, throwing more ships and firepower into the attack then before. The Shivan front line crumbles, and rear-area Shivan operations are opened to Allied attack (the gas miners you hit in your first Vasudan mission). But all is not lost: the Shivans finally get the Sathanas into the area, and as they hoped GTVA opposition crumbles before the might of the juggernaut.
Then the battles at either end of the Gamma Draconis-Capella node result in the destruction of the Sathanas, and suddenly the GTVA is back, pushing hard yet again, trampling the small Shivan force still in the nebula. More Sathani are dispatched.
Something odd is happening too, though: one Terran ship is not attacking them, but trying to communicate with them. The Shivans are mystified, but agree to meet Bosch and talk with him. The combat aboard the Iceni was a colossal miscommunication, a panicked crewer firing on the Shivans that boarded and the situation escalating badly before Bosch got through to both the Shivans and his crew. There were, after all, two transports that docked with the Iceni: if Bosch and company, plus the Shivan boarding party (or what was left of it) were onboard the first, who was getting on the second? Probably a good portion of the remainder of the Iceni's crew. (“As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the Shivan transports.”) But starships were not made to have firefights inside their hulls, and damage was done to the Iceni's systems. Damage that left Lieutenant Rusk and his compatriots in the dark about the peaceful ending to this encounter, although they probably wondered why the Shivans hadn't returned to exterminate them.
From their discussions with Bosch, the Shivans learn that they have made a giant mistake, starting with destroying the GTC Vigilant and moving on to every other GTVA ship and crewer or pilot they have killed since. The GTVA is acting out of an apparent need to defend themselves, not a desire to attack the Shivans. The ones who started it were the crew of the NTC Trinity: even the NTF, in the personage of Aken Bosch, never meant for there to be a war with the Shivans.
But mistake or not, the Shivans have thrown the gauntlet down, and the GTVA has picked the gauntlet up. The GTVA will never make peace with the Shivans. Rather, the GTVA will make every effort to annihilate the Shivans just as the Shivans have annihilated so many others. The Shivans no longer wish to destroy the GTVA, though. The GTVA has done nothing wrong. So somehow, they must end this fight without a formal peace.
The GTVA has Knossos technology: if the Shivans merely retreat and blow the nodes leading into the nebula, the GTVA will believe they are winning, use Knossos portals to reopen the nodes, and continue their campaign. Destroying Gamma Draconis might work. But it might not, as the GTVA might conclude it had cost the Shivans much of their Sathanas fleet, and the rest had gone somewhere else or been heavily damaged. Gamma Draconis hardly matters to the GTVA, after all. There’s nothing there.
Finally the Shivans settle on causing the Capella supernova as the best, most clear way of both sealing themselves off from GTVA incursions by that route, and sending a message: Don't screw with us. We're bigger, we're meaner, and we will kick your ***. And they carry this plan out.
The GTVA doesn't comprehend the reasoning behind what happened, but the message got through loud and clear. They know better then to screw with the Shivans now.
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Personally, I think the Shivans are just a perversion of the dark side of The Force.
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All hail the Capella Barbeque Theory, bow before its logic!
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i often think that the attacks against us aren't so much attacks against us, as much as they are simply clearing us out of the way. Let's face it, the Shivans have 80 Sath. 80. and that's just what we know. How many don't we know about? They can come take our lunch money any time that they want. I really don't think that we are the target, we are just in the way. They don't care about us, and we are not a serious threat to them, capella proves it. They could take us out at any time, why they don't....now that's the real question.
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Heres my entire idea on the thing.
The Shivans are basically another species that of course faught the Ancients 10,000 to 7,000 years ago, and won for that matter. All that time passes, the main Shivan forces revert BACK to their own systems, but instead of pulling everything out, they leave one fleet around just incase they missed some of the Ancients, AKA-> Lucifer Fleet.
So that fleet remains dormant outside of Ross 128, and once the Terran-Vasudan war reaches its peak, and Subspace begins to appear all over the place, the waves gain the Lucifer Fleets attention, and begin thinking that the Terran-Vasudan forces are the Ancients instead. So then the Lucifer fleet jumps to Ross 128, and the entire story begins.
Once the Lucifer and Eva are destroyed, the remaining forces ditch and hide somewhere, because their two best ships were destroyed, and decide to sit around and wait for reinforcements.
So 32 Years later, when Bosch sends the trinity to activate the Knossos subspace portal, the shivan ships hiding in the area slip in and jump back to their home systems, tell the Shivan forces back home what had happened, and then the entire force comes back, charging en masse to attack the GTVA, who they think are the Ancients. So most likely the Shivans have attacked the GTA-PVN, and later the GTVA because they think the Ancients are our forces. So im guessing the Ancients put up a good fight but still lost, so the Shivans are throwing in even more firepower to stop us from expanding outwards even more to their home systems. So most likely its just their in a major defense and dont want us to go out any closer to their home.
Ok, *gets the flame protection suit on*Flame away :nervous:
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Sounds like a pretty reasonable theory to me, Razgriz. Welcome to HLP. :)
:welcome:
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ty, and that was just a part of my highly active imagination :D
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:welcome:
Exits are to your right and left, and flamethrowers are under your seat. Be careful, though, as they are sometimes filled with water, so bring your own Napalm or try to club someone with the non-working shotguns in the weapon closet. Also, be careful while wandering the ventilation shafts. If you see a large, five-limbed creature that looks really pissed, it’s probably Carl, give him your lunch and he'll hopefully go away. In the event of an emergency, the n00bs will be the last to get into the escape pods, if there’s any room left. The Plasma rifles in the forward locker are released only under authorization of an Admin, [V] God, or hyperintelligent shade of the color blue. Oh, and whatever you do, don't mention the word Freespace followed by the number 3.
Here is a far-fetched but possible explanation for the scouting party bit on the FS2 Box. The Shivans sent a scouting party (a few fighters, not an invincible superdestroyer :doubt: ) before the Knossos was activated but they got killed by the NTF. but they got killed by the SOC.
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In case you missed it, here's mine - MindGames (http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Background.html) :thepimp: ;7
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Of course the question is, why was the Lucifer/Eva shielded when the Shivans made no attempt to shield any of the other capital ships? Is the Lucifer a newer design, or is there something specific being protected on the Lucifer class destroyers?
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Or is the shielding a side effect of something else about the Lucy?
(NB: Eva? Wasn't that the Demon you destroy with the Tsunami bombs?)
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yeah it was.
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Sorry, not the Eva, my mistake :)
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Originally posted by Flipside
Of course the question is, why was the Lucifer/Eva shielded when the Shivans made no attempt to shield any of the other capital ships? Is the Lucifer a newer design, or is there something specific being protected on the Lucifer class destroyers?
only the lucifer was shielded, and perhaps as you say the lucifer was a newer design....i dont think thats it though, i think it may just be to protect the reactors or the fact that its a WMD Platform ship if you think about it (Fires WMD on Vasuda Prime)
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Please, if you're going to describe the Lucifer like that, it'd be an orbital bombardment platform. This be Freespace. There be no WMD's here. :arr:
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yeah me and StratComm were there, there were no WMD's. In fact i would have been killed if StratComm hadn't busted out with a quick model to get us off planet.
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Originally posted by StratComm
orbital bombardment platform
ahhh, thts the phrase i was looking for StratComm, sorry i bin readin too many threads about Iraq or sumthin :sigh: :blah:
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Possibly, but then, it just seems...odd that the Lucifer is the only ship built in such a way by the Shivans. For a race that seem to be phsychopathic to the point of suicidal, why suddenly expend all this trouble on a single ship. The firepower on that thing is incredible, I seem to recall in a one-one fight it would beat a Sathanas.
Basically, it just seems too powerful to simply be a Orbital Attack vehicle. It was certainly some kind of command ship, since the Shivans lost coherence when it was destroyed, but, what commands, issued by who?
Edit : I know we are not 'supposed' to compare Shivans to Insects, but the only parallel that I can think of is when some hive insects lose a Queen and have no replacement. Or, more importantly, when a new 'Queen' has left her nest with some workers and drones, and is killed before she can establish a new Hive....
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ok in all honesty, i've said it before and i will say it again, the shivans are absolutely alien, they have evolved in a different direction. everything about them is alien, right down to the way that they think, we therefore, could not even begin to fathom the reasoning behind the simplest thought, let alone the reasons for the things that they have done. we could speculate as to why, but we would still be looking at it from a human perspective, not from a shivan one. we may never know why they did what they did, unless we talk to Bosch, and even then, we may know why, but we may not understand why.
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Indeed, but we must also bear in mind that the Shivans were created by humans (Volition), so there is nothing they can think up for them that we cannot ;)
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Originally posted by Flipside
Possibly, but then, it just seems...odd that the Lucifer is the only ship built in such a way by the Shivans. For a race that seem to be phsychopathic to the point of suicidal, why suddenly expend all this trouble on a single ship. The firepower on that thing is incredible, I seem to recall in a one-one fight it would beat a Sathanas.
Basically, it just seems too powerful to simply be a Orbital Attack vehicle. It was certainly some kind of command ship, since the Shivans lost coherence when it was destroyed, but, what commands, issued by who?
Edit : I know we are not 'supposed' to compare Shivans to Insects, but the only parallel that I can think of is when some hive insects lose a Queen and have no replacement. Or, more importantly, when a new 'Queen' has left her nest with some workers and drones, and is killed before she can establish a new Hive....
Lucifer take on a Sathanas? where do you get that from.
It took Lucy 4 salvos to take out the Galatea - something a Sath would do in 1 salvo. Not to mention a Sath has 1000000hp
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Of course the Lucifer would beat the Sathanas! Its got an invincible shield. And before you come at me with that "Beams pierce shields" rubbish there were weapons in FS1 that penetrated shields but they didn't even scrath the Lucifer.
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The Lucifers shields were only impenetrable by weapons of FS1 era strength (i.e. not applicable to beams, or indeed FS2 conventional lasers or bombs) - I believe Volition said that long ago in the days of the VBB.
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I'm with aldo on this one.
After all, if the Colossus was made to fight the Lucifer, it means that Lucy would've easily gone down with any of the new weapons in the GTVA arsenal.
They were preparing to see another Lucy......not the Sathies though.....
Also, corrrect me if I'm wrong, but the Terran Orion's, etc. - they all got a major hull update, so that the player's primary weapons can't dent it. Kinda like what the Lucy was about.
Mewh.
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I always thought the Colossus would just track the Lucifer down in subspace and then kill it.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Lucifer take on a Sathanas? where do you get that from.
It took Lucy 4 salvos to take out the Galatea - something a Sath would do in 1 salvo. Not to mention a Sath has 1000000hp
go setup a little fred mission of a lucifer versus a sathanas, 75% probability of Lucifer Winning, has been proven time and time again
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Originally posted by BD
I'm with aldo on this one.
After all, if the Colossus was made to fight the Lucifer, it means that Lucy would've easily gone down with any of the new weapons in the GTVA arsenal.
I'm not saying it would lose, though; just that it would take damage. Someone dig up the damage rate of the Lucy's flux cannons - that'd be the key. I think the Lucy would simply kill anything before it had the chance to inflict lethal damage, with the possible exception of the Sath and Colossus.
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Originally posted by dan87uk
go setup a little fred mission of a lucifer versus a sathanas, 75% probability of Lucifer Winning, has been proven time and time again
No, don't bother, Shivan Super Laser (the flux gun) can't damage a Sathanas, Collossus or Volition BRavos below 75%
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Basically, it just seems too powerful to simply be a Orbital Attack vehicle. It was certainly some kind of command ship, since the Shivans lost coherence when it was destroyed, but, what commands, issued by who?
Maybe the Shivans considered the Lucifer their ultimate weapon, that Is not only powerful, but verstile also (command ship, but also suitable for planetary bombardments, because you need powerful weapons to have a range that goes from outer space to the surface of a planet) . It is also possible that the Hive Mind nerve center of the Shivans was located aboard that ship. That's why the Shivans went to such great legnths to protect it, with shields and all. And that also explains why they couldent co-ordinate with each other when It was destroyed.
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I don't subscribe to this hive mind theory, if the Terrans had one command ship and then it got destroyed I think the terra fleet would be a little dis-orientated as well. (In the tech room it says the Shivan fleet behaved weirdly after the Destruction of the Lucifer and Eva.)
The Shivans weren't just disioriented, they were totally lost. Their strikes were poorly co-ordinated while GTVA was working as a team. It was like one Shivan didn't know what the other one was doing, and they were individualistic without their "hive mind" base.
And what about Capella?
In the end sequence, many juggernauts stay behind and sacrifice themselves so the other Shivans could get through. If the shivans thought independently, they wouldent want to be the ones that got left behind and they probably would have a mutiny or something. This all for one and one for all atittude is charictaristic of a collective intellegence.
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or perhaps they know what happens once we shrug off this mortal coif, so the death of the physical body really doesn't mean so much to them.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
The Shivans weren't just disioriented, they were totally lost. Their strikes were poorly co-ordinated while GTVA was working as a team. It was like one Shivan didn't know what the other one was doing, and they were individualistic without their "hive mind" base.
And what about Capella?
In the end sequence, many juggernauts stay behind and sacrifice themselves so the other Shivans could get through. If the shivans thought independently, they wouldent want to be the ones that got left behind and they probably would have a mutiny or something. This all for one and one for all atittude is charictaristic of a collective intellegence.
Remember they hadno destroyers left and hardly any cruisers, and the ones they did have would be hunted down and destroyed quickly by the GTA and the PVN. Also its canon that Shivans can communicate using ships (Iceni and Shivans) and those Comm Nodes, not to mention all Shivan ships have a communication subsystem AFAIK.
Maybe the Juggernauts that stayed behind were sacrificing themselves to make sure the other Sathanes escaped. Maybe if they hadn't then whatever the Sathanes jumped through could have been swallowed by the SuperNova.
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Maybe the ship-ship communication is actually ship-Hive Mind-ship communtication. Maybe ETAK was a device that allowed Bosch to speak to the Hive Mind and then have that message relayed to the Rephaim.
You're right about the Shivans sacrificing themselves so other Shivans could get through. A hive mind would think that "Well, If we sacrifice half the Sathanas, then the other half could get through. That's a reasonable sacrifice considering the circumstances." While if a Shivan was thinking independently, it would think "I don't care about the other Sathani, but I want to get through that node!" and the result would be everyone trying to use the node at once. Which didn't happen because some willfully stayed behind and let themselves be consumed by the Supernova, which proves that they are Hive-Minded.
or perhaps they know what happens once we shrug off this mortal coif, so the death of the physical body really doesn't mean so much to them.
Still, if they thought individually, they would think "Better HIS mortal coil than MY mortal coil!"
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Originally posted by KappaWing
Maybe the ship-ship communication is actually ship-Hive Mind-ship communtication. Maybe ETAK was a device that allowed Bosch to speak to the Hive Mind and then have that message relayed to the Rephaim.
You're right about the Shivans sacrificing themselves so other Shivans could get through. A hive mind would think that "Well, If we sacrifice half the Sathanas, then the other half could get through. That's a reasonable sacrifice considering the circumstances." While if a Shivan was thinking independently, it would think "I don't care about the other Sathani, but I want to get through that node!" and the result would be everyone trying to use the node at once. Which didn't happen because some willfully stayed behind and let themselves be consumed by the Supernova, which proves that they are Hive-Minded.
OK so if there was a Gate and there were five people outside the gate , The people who didn't go inside the gate would die immediately, and the people who went into the gate would carry on living as normal. Only 4 people can go through the gate and if all of them tried to go through then they would all die. I'm pretty sure a few people would stay behind to die instead of tryng to go through the gate so that everyone else would die.
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If I were a Shivan, I wouldn't wanna stay behind and get toasted. :drevil:
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Well I believe that a specie that can constuct Satani has to be moe inteligent then a simple hive mind. As for the whole Capella thing well think about it :
If you are trying to get home and you have these strange things killing you(if the shivans havent had the whole Sathani fleet they would most certainly get theyr asses kicked al over the place because it seems to me that the GTVA is superior in tems of tactics and strategi the the shivans) then what would you do tri and make a run for it and maibe get your ass blown (remember that they dont know how many Colossus class ships the GTVA has so in theyr mind we might have a whole fleet right aound the corner waiting to blow them up).
No you would stay behind and ty to protect the "refugees" as they make a run for theyr home lanet and seal the door behind.
Remember what the Colossus did it sacificed itself so that the refugees can flee (they kept at least part of the shivan force concentrated around them to give the others a chance).
So in my mind there is no doubt that the shivans did the same thing. Remember that we were kicking theyr but all over the nebula no matter how many shis they sent at us. The losses on the part of the GTVA were a lot smaller then what the shivans semed to lose ,that is till they sent in the Sathanos.
They needed the Sathanos to help them tun the situation in they favor we did not need the Colossus in the begining.
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erm lots of typo's so hard to understand, but i think i get what your saying...its speculation only of course but plausable
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it is only plausible if you are willing to humanize the shivans. The Shivans are much more alien to us than the vasudans are. I don't think that the motivations that they have can be attributed to anything that a human would do.
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Shivans = One big game of chess
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Well I dont mean to humanize the shivans but there are similarities between what we would do and what the shivans did.
The hive mind would be too simple. The shivans proved to be much more versatile in terms of tactics and ship's design's .
We must give them more credit. I mean if they were a hive mind how would they be able to adapt theyr tactics and redeploy theyr forces in such a short time. And where is the "queen" the overmind which controls the whole lot of them.
From we hav seen in hive minds (insects) they tend to kinda keep their leader close by so that they can take orders and stuff like that.
Also where is their colony????????
Considering how much the GTVA explored the shivan controled space they failed to detect any sort of colony or base of operations. Keep in mind the SOC mission with the whole comunication nodes and stuff like that.
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Alright, first and foremost:
Remember what the Colossus did it sacificed itself so that the refugees can flee (they kept at least part of the shivan force concentrated around them to give the others a chance).
Sacrificing so many Shivans so a few could make it through the node = Hive Mind mentality.
So in my mind there is no doubt that the shivans did the same thing. Remember that we were kicking theyr but all over the nebula no matter how many shis they sent at us. The losses on the part of the GTVA were a lot smaller then what the shivans semed to lose ,that is till they sent in the Sathanos.
Not true! I remember that early in the nebular campaign, right after the Actium and Lysander missions, a briefing mentioned that the alliance lost a DESTROYER and a few other warships when attacking the Ravana.
The alliance lost a Destroyer, two Corvettes, and numerous cruisers to the Shivans, while the shivans only lost the Ravana, 2 cruisers, and 1 corvette. And I'm sure there were many other missions that weren't flown by alpha 1 that ended in the complete destruction of the alliance forces. And remember, they were just playing around before they sent the first Sathanas in. And even still then they were just having fun. They only got serious when they sent in the Sathanas fleet that could quickly destroy the GTVA if they wanted to. The GTVA was running and hiding from the Shians because the Shivans ARE FAR MORE technologically advanced and FAR MORE numerous than the GTVA! And we haven't even begun to peer in to Shivan held systems deep within. If they have Sathanas class juggernauts on the fringes of the system, just think what type of ships they have in their core systems. And also remember that annihalation of the GTVA was not their top priority, as their sathanases favored doing whatever they were doing to the Capella sun rather then engaging the fleet. If the Shivans top priority was xenocide, then they surley would have killed off the GTVA quickly and efficiently as they have done with the ancients.
Well I believe that a specie that can constuct Satani has to be moe inteligent then a simple hive mind.
Hive minds are MORE intellegent than individual minds, because it's all the Shivans' brainpower lumped into one supreme collective intellegence.
No you would stay behind and ty to protect the "refugees" as they make a run for theyr home lanet and seal the door behind.
The Shivans dont care about other Shivan lives unless the hive mind dictates so, such as the sacrificing of the Sathanas at capella. This is evidenced by the lack of escape pods and the strucural weakness of the Shivan personell transports.
In conclusion, the Shivans could kill the GTVA at the flick of a finger if they wanted to, but the GTVA is obviously just a distraction for the Shivans, as the Shivans only send in their big fleets unless they ablsolutley HAVE TO. They must have someting far more important, and possibly sinister, on their agenda.
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Originally posted by AlphaOne
Considering how much the GTVA explored the shivan controled space they failed to detect any sort of colony or base of operations. Keep in mind the SOC mission with the whole comunication nodes and stuff like that.
Considering what the GTVA has seen of "Shivan Space" consists of one nebula, presumably created in a Capella-like event, and the one system beyond (through which the Shivans brought in more Saths; they weren't there already), I'd say it's absolutely no suprise that we don't actually see a shivan colony or whatever it is that they do. The GTVA has done precisely 0 reconissance into Shivan space.
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that shivan trailer home theory by s9 was posted on Gamespot too.
finally i understand why a thread was started with
"na i think this just proves my theory..."
as for my theory, i think the lucifer was some experimental ship, which they were sending to an "uninhabited" section of the Galaxy to test its incredible main cannon and engage in war games with the rest of the, so called, lucifer fleet.
our little slice of space was supposed to be empty because there were no ancients there (obviously) and they hadnt checked up on it for a long time.
they turn up here and think "what the hell - didnt we allready kill these guys?!", thinking we are ancients, and try to finish the job. somebody neglects to tell an important person that there is a war in progress, several years pass, and their new superweapon hasnt returned. the shivans then send a small group (the rakshasa and its battle group) to investigate, whilst setting up a backup group one jump back (the ravana) just in case. wats left of the rakshasas group reports back lots of "ancients" and no superweapon, and the shivan armada, who are decidedly pissed off, come down on us like a ton of bricks, using one of their formidible sathan...i...e. we took down the sathanas, and they decided to completely destroy us, sending what i hope was a large chunk of their sathanas fleet. once they had obliterated our most powerful weapon, the collosus, they decide to really teach us a lesson by destroying the Capella star. they then some how harness the power of the supernova to jump out *most* of their sathanas fleet.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
Hive minds are MORE intellegent than individual minds, because it's all the Shivans' brainpower lumped into one supreme collective intellegence.
By that logic, the ants in my backyard are more intelligent then I am.
Hive minds are inherently more efficent, I will grant that. But intelligence does not necessarily follow from that. In fact, one-for-one, a Terran or Vasudan can probably mentally outdo a Shivan any day. Because the hive mind centralizes the thinking, its individual units are not required to be as intelligent.
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It's bad to compare the Shivans' hive mind to ants' hive mind. For one, and individual Shivan is as (or more) intellegent than an individual Terran mind, where an ant's individual mind is far less intellegent than a Terran mind.
Second, an individual Shivan still retains his intellegence even after becoming one with the hive mind. It is their ability to pool their intellegence in such a manner that they have created Sathani and other technological marvels. If Terrans had a hive mind, they would be far more efficient AND intellegent (collectivley) than if they were all thinking independently (as they do). That is why they are so behind the Shivans in terms of technology. The individual Shivan retains his intellegence because that way he will have more to contribute to the hive mind as a collective. Their superior technology is evidence to that.
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Based on FS, individual Shivans have the same flying skills as a petri dish of brain cells.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Based on FS, individual Shivans have the same flying skills as a petri dish of brain cells.
On the contrary, they seem to fly a lot better than your wingmen. :p
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Originally posted by KappaWing
It's bad to compare the Shivans' hive mind to ants' hive mind. For one, and individual Shivan is as (or more) intellegent than an individual Terran mind, where an ant's individual mind is far less intellegent than a Terran mind.
Second, an individual Shivan still retains his intellegence even after becoming one with the hive mind. It is their ability to pool their intellegence in such a manner that they have created Sathani and other technological marvels. If Terrans had a hive mind, they would be far more efficient AND intellegent (collectivley) than if they were all thinking independently (as they do). That is why they are so behind the Shivans in terms of technology. The individual Shivan retains his intellegence because that way he will have more to contribute to the hive mind as a collective. Their superior technology is evidence to that.
correction- we don't know how intelligent the shivans are. they might be dumb as hell. We simply know to little about them.
We don't even know if Shivans built their ships or if someone else builds them for htem.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
It's bad to compare the Shivans' hive mind to ants' hive mind. For one, and individual Shivan is as (or more) intellegent than an individual Terran mind, where an ant's individual mind is far less intellegent than a Terran mind.
The Shivans' tactics, their behavior, does not indicate a high level of intelligence. In many ways they come across as primitive, animalistic. They attack in packs. They are more concerned with causing destruction then with their own survival. While they are capable of setting traps, subtlety is not the way they normally do business. The Shivan way of waging war is inefficent, dependant upon brute force and raw numbers.
Take for example the concept of intelligence-gathering. This concept is utterly lost on the Shivans. They attack without even the most rudimentary attempts to gather information about the target. Yes, they can afford to, yes they get along fine without it. But consider how much more deadly they might be if they did not ignore that aspect of warfare. Consider how many more Terrans and Vasudans they might be able to kill, and how many fewer Shivans it might cost. Even if you have vast resources, waste remains waste, and should be minimized if possible. Yet the Shivans choose to be wasteful, if, as you say, they are intelligent.
Or consider their behavior. Once given a mission, for a Shivan it is do or die: they will not deviate from that mission, no matter the circumstances, no matter that their original orders might have no bearing upon the current reality. We have never seen a Shivan ship retreat, no matter the odds, no matter that it will not live long enough to do significant damage. We have never seen the Shivans alter a plan to fit changed realities of a situation. Even bereft of all beam cannon and its forward flak guns, helpless against the first Aeolus or Deimos that comes across it, what does the Sathanas do? It continues on deeper into GTVA territory, almost certainly commiting to its own destruction. This is not an intelligent act.
The ant analogy was actually quite apt, for the Shivans resemble the behavior of ants in terms of their tactical and strategic thinking.
Originally posted by KappaWing
It is their ability to pool their intellegence in such a manner that they have created Sathani and other technological marvels.
Leaving aside the problems with an individual Shivan being sentient, the Shivans are, quite simply, not intellectually superior.
Consider the Great War. The GTA and PVN went from helpless against the Shivans to tearing them to shreds in very little time. Yes, they were already working on the technologies, but that says something in and of itself.
The Shivans have had advanced subspace technology, sheathe shielding, and Lucifer-type weapons since Terrans built the Pyramids, if not before. Yet Terrans were already on their way to achieving technical parity with the Shivans when they attacked the Riveria Installation. The Terrans advanced their technology more rapidly. Had the Lucifer arrived a year and a half later then it did, it could well have been destroyed as it tried to exit Ross 128. The Vasudan archeologists would have found the necessary information to track vessels into subspace. Terran scientists would have perfected the shield technology they were testing at the Riveria installation. Hercs and Medusas would have been everywhere. The technology for fighters to transit between systems would have probably been in place: the Sol labs got an assist from studying the Shivans, but they were already looking into the problem and had been for some time. Lieutenant Ash's damaged Apollo would not have been fleeing to the Riveria installation. Instead his intact flight of Hercules would have been coming back with a weird story to tell.
Or the Second Shivan Invasion? The Shivans have had millenia of uncontested to access massive resources to build Sathanas juggernauts: that they have more then eighty of them is, ultimately, not that surprising. By contrast, the Colossus was built with access to far fewer resources and far less time. Terran and Vasudan beam cannon are less advanced, true. However this may not be any intrinisic fault of the weapon, but rather that Shivans are capable of withstanding much greater extremes of temperature and so don't need to insulate their weapons as much. And even if the beams are inferior, they are there, and the difference is not insurmountable. Both the GTVA and the Shivans developed beams that could function fleet-wide and fitted them to their ships in the thirty-two years between the Great War and the NTC Trinity opening the portal in Gamma Draconis. The Shivans had examples to work from already, those they had placed on the Lucifer: the GTVA had nothing but the flight recorder data from a few fighters that escaped the GTD Galatea's destruction and the damage done to the surface of Vasuda Prime. Yet the GTVA managed to build functional beams and distribute them fleet-wide in the same time that the Shivans did. Considering they started from lesser means, is it any wonder their weapons are not quite as powerful? But give them a few years and they'll fix that.
Meanwhile GTVA fightercraft technology began the Second Shivan Invasion with a parity to that of the Shivans, and by the end was superior. No Shivan fighter is a match for the Eryines, no Shivan fighter primary weapon a match for the UD-8 Kayser. In the race to build the better gun, the better reactor to power it, and the better frame to attach those to, the GTVA is winning.
Thus I submit that the Shivans are not, can not, be vastly more intelligent.
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Unfortunately, those assumptions about Shivan technological strength assume that we've seen their entire fleet (And that they were developing beam weapons- which were weaker than the Lucifers - in the interim war period). I doubt that a lot.
The Shivans did, however, lay on ambushes for Terran craft with booby-trapped cargo (and also the shield cargo pods); that indicates a degree of forward planning for one. IIRc they also targeted GTVA convoys carrying the shield prototypes, and the science vessels working on the Tsunami.... they weren't acting like a blind force in FS1 for one thing.
Oh, and note that the first Sathanas was able to bring out the Colossus, and both discover the GTVAs largest weapon and the tactics that would be used against it - note that the next encounter the Colossus had with a Sathani ended in its destruction. I wouldn't be atall surpised if the Shivans sent that first Sath as purely bait for recon....when you have infinite resources, it's probably not a big sacrifice to make.
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Oh, and note that the first Sathanas was able to bring out the Colossus, and both discover the GTVAs largest weapon and the tactics that would be used against it - note that the next encounter the Colossus had with a Sathani ended in its destruction.
The second Sathanas that attacked the Colossus didn't really demonstrate any unique tactics. Unless that was mind control, to get the Colossus' commander to not jump out, or it disabled the Colossus' subspace drive somehow.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Unfortunately, those assumptions about Shivan technological strength assume that we've seen their entire fleet (And that they were developing beam weapons- which were weaker than the Lucifers - in the interim war period). I doubt that a lot.
Perhaps the original beams were impractical? They switched for a reason, otherwise I demand to know why the Sathanas was not armed with Shivan Super Lasers. Speculating about further ships in the Shivan fleet is a weak rebuttal: you have to work from the canon evidence, and there is no canon evidence for other ship types with vastly different capablities.
Originally posted by aldo_14
The Shivans did, however, lay on ambushes for Terran craft with booby-trapped cargo (and also the shield cargo pods); that indicates a degree of forward planning for one.
I did not say that they were incapable of subtlety. But that is not their normal method of operation. You cite two examples, but if you want I can list almost every other mission Shivans have appeared in as counterexamples. Clearly their default setting is more along the lines of KILL DESTROY DESTROY.
Originally posted by aldo_14
IIRc they also targeted GTVA convoys carrying the shield prototypes, and the science vessels working on the Tsunami.... they weren't acting like a blind force in FS1 for one thing.
"The Shivans have hit everything sent from this installation."- sm1-08a mission briefing.
The shield convoy attack was not directed, the Shivans were going after anything that moved. The attack on the Tsunami project was not necessarily directed either, since that area was a combat zone and the Shivans have demonstrated considerable lack of discrimination in choosing targets.
And since there is, as far as we know, no possible way the Shivans could have obtained the information about the shield prototypes convoy or the Tsunami development project, it seems unlikely they could, let alone would, delibrately target them.
Originally posted by aldo_14
Oh, and note that the first Sathanas was able to bring out the Colossus, and both discover the GTVAs largest weapon and the tactics that would be used against it - note that the next encounter the Colossus had with a Sathani ended in its destruction.
Of course...how do the Shivans know this is the best? They don't. They can't.
Nor did they draw the Colossus out. In fact, the Colossus actually retreated: recall it was at the Knossos in Gamma Draconis for at least one mission. Then it went back to Capella, where in all likelyhood it was standing guard at the GD-Capella node anyways: it wasn't exactly like there was some more pressing job for the Colossus that it was called away to do. The NTF was dead.
Originally posted by aldo_14
I wouldn't be at all surpised if the Shivans sent that first Sath as purely bait for recon....when you have infinite resources, it's probably not a big sacrifice to make.
But why make the sacrifice at all if you could do the same job with a few wings of fighters, which would probably live through doing it? Waste remains waste, and intelligence tries to avoid waste.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
But why make the sacrifice at all if you could do the same job with a few wings of fighters, which would probably live through doing it? Waste remains waste, and intelligence tries to avoid waste.
*sigh*
A few fighters to draw the GTVA's strongest weapon out?
And the Shivan fighters could have scanned the Installation and the Tsunami project ships to find out what they were carrying.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
*sigh*
A few fighters to draw the GTVA's strongest weapon out?
If there is fighters there gotta be destroyer nearby or whole fleet
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Perhaps the original beams were impractical? They switched for a reason, otherwise I demand to know why the Sathanas was not armed with Shivan Super Lasers. Speculating about further ships in the Shivan fleet is a weak rebuttal: you have to work from the canon evidence, and there is no canon evidence for other ship types with vastly different capablities.
Ok, then there is definately canon evidence of Shivan weapons destroying Altair with an energy signature corresponding to Lucifer beams. That's canonical evidence of a Lucifer or equivalent space-to-ground weapon (presumably a beam as is seen in the vprime ani) 8000 years ago.
COMMAND BRIEFING 3
Transmission Continued
Our scanning equipment was able to locate a storage device of some sort. It was heavily protected, which suggests it stores something quite valuable, possibly information or technology. We are attempting to decipher the language of the device, but are fearful of Shivan attacks.
COMMAND BRIEFING 4
Transmission Continued
I say this because it is immediately apparent that this planet was also destroyed by Shivan weapons. This is difficult to believe, considering the age of the remains, but the evidence is conclusive. What we ask is for rescue and an escort away from this planet. Our scientists are not normally a superstitious group, but having one's homeworld destroyed tends to shake your beliefs. Please send an armed rescue as soon as possible to these coordinates.
If you want a reason why the Shivans in FS1 didn't have beams, how about technology constraints on the game engine? (Or even being a simple scout / reserve force on the hinterlands of Shivan space which was a support fleet with minimal tech and arms)
The Ancients monologues also strongly hint there were multiple vessels of the lucifer class or similarly armoured; it mentions attacking ships plural which were only vulnerable in subspace.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
I did not say that they were incapable of subtlety. But that is not their normal method of operation. You cite two examples, but if you want I can list almost every other mission Shivans have appeared in as counterexamples. Clearly their default setting is more along the lines of KILL DESTROY DESTROY.
War generally is fought alone the lines of 'kill the other side'; in FS1, it's significant IMO that the Shivans went for the 2 planets which were the capitals of the Terran & Vasudan species. They probed, attacked - but ultimately focused on destroying the command and R&D parts of the GTVA. Including the guerilla style attacks of the Lucifer on Riviera (where shield prototypes were being developed), and the Shivan fighter attacks during the T-V war, which spread confusion and disorganisation.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
"The Shivans have hit everything sent from this installation."- sm1-08a mission briefing.
The shield convoy attack was not directed, the Shivans were going after anything that moved. The attack on the Tsunami project was not necessarily directed either, since that area was a combat zone and the Shivans have demonstrated considerable lack of discrimination in choosing targets.
And since there is, as far as we know, no possible way the Shivans could have obtained the information about the shield prototypes convoy or the Tsunami development project, it seems unlikely they could, let alone would, delibrately target them.
As far as we know. but that doesn't mean the Shivans can't intercept transmissions or crack Terran codes. And the Shivans hitting the installation implies they were aware of the importance of work there... in fact, if they were attacking everything from that installation, IMO it implies they knew there would be a valuable convoy originating there - just not which one.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Of course...how do the Shivans know this is the best? They don't. They can't.
But they can make an educated guess - they know GTVA tech levels, they know what the GTVA can build. And they doubtless could guess the GTVA had developed some weapon to kill a Lucifer... send a high power ship capable of inflicting massive damage, and it'll draw the enemies best defenses to it like moths to a light.
It also let them know what threats their 80-strong fleet might face in Capella - how the GTVA would attack Sathani class vessels, and how long it would take them to destroy it.
Oh, and they also learnt of Mjolnir RBCs; useful for the next time they wanted to run a node.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Nor did they draw the Colossus out. In fact, the Colossus actually retreated: recall it was at the Knossos in Gamma Draconis for at least one mission. Then it went back to Capella, where in all likelyhood it was standing guard at the GD-Capella node anyways: it wasn't exactly like there was some more pressing job for the Colossus that it was called away to do. The NTF was dead.
They drew the Colossus into direct combat. They identified its capabilities - AFAIK that was the first direct engagement between the Colossus and a Shivan capship.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
But why make the sacrifice at all if you could do the same job with a few wings of fighters, which would probably live through doing it? Waste remains waste, and intelligence tries to avoid waste.
Would a few wings of fighters necessitate the GTVA sending the Colossus to engage? I think not. And were the Shivans trying to send a key for of 80 fighters to surround Capella? No chance.
The Shivans wanted those Saths around Capella. They needed to know how strong the GTVA was, how well it would cope with those vessels. The first Sathani allowed them to learn it.
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
The second Sathanas that attacked the Colossus didn't really demonstrate any unique tactics. Unless that was mind control, to get the Colossus' commander to not jump out, or it disabled the Colossus' subspace drive somehow.
The Shivans managed to destroy/disable the Colossuses fighterbay, didn't they? Which also prevented the Colossus deploying bombers to attack the Saths beams as they had the first time round (although the player came from the Aquitane there, in Capella the Shivans had a screening force of many fighters and ships to prevent long-range support being nearly as effective).
Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
If there is fighters there gotta be destroyer nearby or whole fleet
Except that Shivan cruisers can carry fighters. And even a Demon class destroyer wouldn't necessitate the Colossus (possibly a Ravana, but that's debatable).
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The Ancients monologues also strongly hint there were multiple vessels of the lucifer class or similarly armoured; it mentions attacking ships plural which were only vulnerable in subspace.
Does anyone else think the ancients wouldn't have been able to penetrate the Shivan fighters' shields?
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Does anyone else think the ancients wouldn't have been able to penetrate the Shivan fighters' shields?
I don't (although it did occur to me); especially looking at the Knossos and subspace tracking technology (they were definately advanced in that area); also the Shivan cruisers and destroyers were not shielded... I think if you wanted to move onto that assumption, you;d be doing so simply to validate the idea of a single Lucifer... despite the fact the Ancients empire was larger that the GTVAs and they had fought countless wars to conquer it.
We don't know anything of Ancient military technology, of course, but it strikes me as being far more likely that it was better rather than worse than GTVA tech.
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I thought the message from FS1 was that the Ancients had been owned because they had never fought an opponent of any strength, and the Terrans and Vasudans had "Learned to adapt" and that stopped them being exterminated.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
I thought the message from FS1 was that the Ancients had been owned because they had never fought an opponent of any strength, and the Terrans and Vasudans had "Learned to adapt" and that stopped them being exterminated.
Well, the Terrans and Vasudans did learn to both do that and work together, albeit requiring the Ancients relics to actually win.... but, at the same time FS2 shown that to be somewhat of a phyrric victory; the Shivans are far, far stronger than indicated in FS1, and it throws upon the question of whether or not the Ancients fought a fleet of that size (i.e. the knossos network indicating the advanced nature of Ancient technology in the respect of subspace) rather than the Lucifer fleet....
Basically, what we do know is that the ancients were good at subspace, crushed developing races, and had a vast empire.... on the one hand you'd expect a militaristic race such as them to keep developing better weaponry (and they were advanced based on the knossos), on the other hand they may have had little need. The scale of the Ancient-Shivan war is completely unknown. My preference is that it was a truly vast war (massacre, rather) killing billions if not trillions, and that the message of FS was really 'united we stand', in that had either the Vasudans or Terrans won the 14-year war earlier on, the Shivans would have won the Great War.
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That's an interesting theory, about the Shivans winnning the Great War if either the Terrans or Vasudans had won the T-V war previously. It's food for thought; in a way, the fact that the war dragged on for so long enabled both sides to attain the technological level necessary to hold their own against, and eventually defeat, the Shivans. Add to that the fact that the Terran and Vasudan governments were able to quickly piece together a relatively strong alliance after 14 years of hatred and misunderstanding, and it makes the alliance's victory seem all the more lucky.
The issue of Shivans having no beam weapons, besides the Lucifer of course, during the Great War and having them thirty years later was brought up earlier. Personally, I don't think that the Shivans developed them in the interim period, as the GTVA did. Rather, I think that the Shivans knew something about our own technological capabilities prior to Ross 128. I always though of the Shivans as using their budget technology, i.e. ships that weren't equipped with beam cannons, because neither the Terrans nor Vasudans had any weapons that would require the use of beam cannons. The Lucifer was sent as the main uber-weapon to "sweep up" the alliance; only one ship of the Lucifer's caliber was required. If this was true, it would suggest that the Shivans did have a level of planning and intelligence above what some other people in the thread had given them credit for.
As for the Shivans using beam cannons at the time of the second war, I think that, at least initially, when the Knossos was activated, the Shivans had no idea who had done it. When that first Rakshasa (no, I can't spell it right :p) was sent through the portal, it had beam cannons equipped for that reason; the Shivans didn't know what they were up against. When the Rakshasa was destroyed, and the Shivans realized that their Great War nemeses were responsible and now had beams of their own, I think they decided to reach deeper into their arsenal and draw out beam-equipped cruisers and destroyers, not to mention the ultimate weapon posed by the Sathanes. An alternate theory would be that the Shivans would surmise that, since the alliance knew how to destroy the Lucifer, they would also have learned enough to be able to make beam cannons, which was close to the truth.
As for why there were no Lucifers during the second war, I don't think that anyone can really ever give a good explanation for that. From the behavior of the Shivans in the Great War after the Lucifer was destroyed, we can surmise that it was some sort of command ship, even a type of "hive mind." Some have suggested that it was one-of-a-kind, but again, the text from the Ancient monologues doesn't exactly suggest that. (Some have said that the Ancients couldn't penetrate Shivan shields at all, but remember, even simple Fury dumbfire missiles can kill a shielded ship, and I'd imagine that the Ancients had more than that.) Who knows, maybe it was a unique class of ship used on special occasions, such as an expeditionary invasion. Maybe the Sathanes, and this would make sense seeing as how they could possibly be seen as colony ships, took on the leadership role during the second war, rendering the Lucifer mostly useless. And, as some people surmise, if the Lucifer's shields could be penetrated by beams, its real advantage would be gone. Maybe the Lucifer was just used against pre-beam opponents. Again, we'll never know.
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Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe.
I've always taken that to mean that the Ancients conquered their entire galaxy using some (albeit slow) form of FTL but that once they had conquered their galaxy they knew that they'd never be able to go anywhere else. Subspace gave them the option of exploring other galaxies.
So if the shivans did wipe out every ancient colony in another galaxy that does give us a really massive was/massacre, right Aldo? :D
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Well, the Terrans and Vasudans did learn to both do that and work together, albeit requiring the Ancients relics to actually win.... but, at the same time FS2 shown that to be somewhat of a phyrric victory; the Shivans are far, far stronger than indicated in FS1, and it throws upon the question of whether or not the Ancients fought a fleet of that size (i.e. the knossos network indicating the advanced nature of Ancient technology in the respect of subspace) rather than the Lucifer fleet....
Basically, what we do know is that the ancients were good at subspace, crushed developing races, and had a vast empire.... on the one hand you'd expect a militaristic race such as them to keep developing better weaponry (and they were advanced based on the knossos), on the other hand they may have had little need. The scale of the Ancient-Shivan war is completely unknown. My preference is that it was a truly vast war (massacre, rather) killing billions if not trillions, and that the message of FS was really 'united we stand', in that had either the Vasudans or Terrans won the 14-year war earlier on, the Shivans would have won the Great War.
I think we've had this debate (or one like it) in 'The Sathanas Fleet' thread, but I do like Anatares theory, one of the only bits I don't like is about the Shivan Comm Nodes.
Before I had a thought that maybe when the LF came through the knossos in that unknown system(Into the Lion's den), the ancients shut down Knossos 2 when only the LF were in what is now GTVA space, but they avoided the LF because the unknown system was a pointless one and they didn't need anyone in the system.
The LF then went to a system beyond Ross 128 through a network of jump nodes that don't pass through GTVA space. The system beyond ross 128 (Lets call it Formhault) was an important one for the ancients and they didn't want any Shivans in the system because they might take up room and scare people.
So the Ancients attacked the Shivans but found their weapons woefully inadequate against Shivan armour and shields. The Shivans then dished out some serious retribution onto the Ancients and exterminated them. They then wondered the Galaxy for 8000 years looking for a way home. Then they sensed some activity near the unknown system.
GTI had discovered the knossos and were testing its capabilities. They sent a few Stealth ships beyond the nebula and the SOC brought in cruisers which managed to reactivate the knossos in the unknown system.
So the LF set course for the Gamma Draconis, a path which unfortunately took it close to an anubis fighter. The Shivans scanned it and discovered a species which looked uncannily like the ancients. (Shivans have long memories) and decided to kill the Ancients once and for all before returning home.
Unfortunately they assumed all ships in the area were Ancient including terran and thought they were in civil war. And the Great War began.
Meanwhile the GTI had discovered that the Shivans were hostile and discovered Shivans beyond knossos 3. THey then shut down the gates and destroyed all evidence that they had ever been there. Unfortunately noone warned the GTA or PVE before the Hades rebellion, when the GTI was disbanded.
In the second great war, well read the second half of my original theory. But add "The Shivans didn't know about any ancients".
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Originally posted by karajorma
I've always taken that to mean that the Ancients conquered their entire galaxy using some (albeit slow) form of FTL but that once they had conquered their galaxy they knew that they'd never be able to go anywhere else. Subspace gave them the option of exploring other galaxies.
Well, I've always wondered about that.... but 'gave us our galaxy' can just mean the Ancients had - or felt they had - the means to conquer the entire galaxy, and beyond it the universe.
It's the hint of a non-subspace based FTL (or even STL) transport that interests me.... although at the same time the use of 'sleeper' ships could explain how a small (in galactic terms) empire could take thousands of years to develop.
Of course, there's interesting issue of how did the Ancients 'discover' subspace - did they in fact create the node network, building tens, hundreds or even thousands of knossos' to stabilise the existing fragile connections? And then see the Shivans swarm through subspace towards them, desperately retreating and destroying the gates - their link to the galaxy - only to see the Shivan armada slowly move towards them regardless.... being hunted down, one by one, through the transport system they created?
(NB: of course, not all nodes lead home - hence some gates or even entire networks of them - could have been simply shut down and abandoned)
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Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe.
Assuming that the Ancients possesed extremley advanced transportation technology, (they focused all their research on transportation because there was no need to develop military tech to war with other species), it is feasible to predict that the Ancients had ships capable of light or sub-light speeds. When the Shivans took out the Ancients, the technology was exterminated along with the ancients. The Shivans, being Shivan, would not have been interested in the Ancients tech and opted to carry out their usual agenda of killing everything on sight.
The Ancients were elated to discover subspace because it greatly speeded up the colonization prcess. A trip from Sol to Alpha Centuari would take about 4 years in a light-speed capable ancient ship. When they discovered subspace, they found that their travel time decreased from 4 years to 4 minutes. As their technology advanced, they discovered how to stabilize less reliable jump nodes. Being obsessed with expansion, a device to stabilize jump nodes would be top priority
On the whole "learned to adapt" thing, i think that since the Ancients never had to war with another species, their ships probably WEREN'T ARMED WHATSOEVER, (why arm a ship if you have nothing you would ever need to fire at?) making them easy targets for even the weakest Shivan vessels.
This is, of course, assuming that the Ancients internal quarrels never strayed from the political arena.
The Terrans, however, (unlike the Ancients) had weapons on their ships and had advanced those weapons to T-V war standards. It was because they fought the Vasudans that they survived the fight with the Shivans.
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The ancients' ships were armed, because they refer to crushing more primitive species. They first thought the shivans were another such race, but the shivans did not fold over and capitulate like the other species they encountered. My theory is that while the Ancients did use weaponry, it was at best equivalent to GTA/PVN weaponry at the start of FS1. Technological stagnation, if you will, from never needing to advance their weaponry. Nothing they had could challenge the Shivan tech, but it was enough to wipe the floor against unarmed opponents.
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Ah i see.
"For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life."
That must have been referring to pre-subspace era. They started arming their ships and encountering other races after they discovered subspace. I think I got it now.
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Since the FAQ v2.0 is ready to go online yet here's the Ancients Monologues in full for you to discuss. :) I threw in the comm brief and ending while I was at it.
Ancients 1
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace our empire would surely know no boundries.
Command Brief
Good morning pilots. I'm going to get right to it. The Shivan forces are sprouting up everywhere and it's no secret that our front lines are taking a beating. As you probably know no one has been able to communicate with them and Terran Intelligence has no leads on their origins or their motives. On the upside their shielding technology seems to be working just fine for us. By this afternoon all fighters stationed on the Galetea will have been fitted with them. Try to keep them intact, alright?
The cruiser Tyranis is suspected to be the source of command for the shivans in this sector. It's here in the Ikeya system and we suspect it's low on fighters and supplies due to its recent attack runs. We have reason to believe it will soon jump to another system to resupply. We don't know where it will jump to but there is only one subspace node out of Ikeya and we intend to blockade it.
In the intrests of learing more about the slippery bastards we're going to attempt something bold. The capture of the Tyranis. If this goes off it will give us the opportunity to examine Shivan technology up close, and bag a few live Shivans in the process. In order to do this we will conduct a series of missions designed to take out the cruiser's escorts and defences. Time to chip away at the boulder, people. That is all. Report to your flight leaders for your orders.
Dismissed.
Ancients 2
When the destoyers came for us we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They like the others. Strange, hidious, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others. They did not die.
We made our first retreat. We could forego one system. We left it to the destroyers and went elsewhere. But they followed, they hunted us. They followed us when we retreated, discovered where we lived.
For a long time we did not know why they chased us. They were no ordinary enemy. They did not seek our territory, our technology, our resources.
Now we know our crime was sin.
Ancients 3
And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestial species.
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.
Ancients 4
There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.
We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace the cosmic destroyers took note.
When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us
Ancients 5
There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.
We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt.
We have the knowledge but not the means. And so this is our legacy.
In subspace they can not use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.
EndGame
I know why the ancient ones were destroyed and I know what they knew. I know that if not for the Shivans they would have perished long before. Without the Shivans someone would have discovered the Ancients in their infancy, and eliminated them, just surely as they eliminated countless billions of others.
I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The shivans are the great destroyers but they are also the great preservers. That is why when we moved into space there was no one powerful enough to kill us. Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.
In the vasudan war we learned how to adapt.
We learned how to study our enemy.
We learned how to overcome.
We learned how to survive.
And so we did.
All the jump points from Earth are gone. But the Shivans can rebuild them. I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime. Such is liberation.
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you are forgetting, the vasudan scientists discovered the flail at laramis (former Ancients Space) so perhaps they had some advanced weaponry, but perhaps hadn't made the weapons available 'fleet-wide' because they didn't really need to, then when the shivans came they were dazed and confused so still didnt get the chance to do so. Also we must assume the shivan-ancient war was on a huge scale because of the vast size of the Ancients' empire, can you imagine the sheer amount of ships that would have been fighting in all of those systems? the shivans would have needed to bring more than 1 Lucifer Sized fleet to destroy these Ancients, they probably would have bought a few lucifer fleets, possibly the LF that attacked Terrans and Vasudans was a remnant from this war and simply patrolling Ancients former space, but it took them so long because they were not really in any rush and their space was huge so it took them time to swing back round to Ross128....the fact that only the Lucifer had beam weaponry can be explained by there lack of contact with the main shivan systems (because there on patrol on border worlds)
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I've noticed that when I play Rome : Total War, Civilisation or any other strategy game that my wars tend to end up being conducted by my oldest troop types simply because of the time and effort involved in getting the newer stuff to the front lines.
If I face a really tough opponent I tend to try to keep them busy with these older forces while I gather up a force of more modern units and push them to the front.
Now we have no idea how big the Shivan Empire is but if it takes weeks or months to get their better ships into position it could explain a lot of what happened in FS1 and FS2. As for why it takes so long, we have no idea how quick subspace travel between galaxies is.
As Dan says the Lucifer fleet could be an old fleet guarding the fringes of Shivan territory. What would be worrying is if the Saths didn't come from the best of the best (i.e home fleet) but maybe a local area with a slightly newer army than the rest of the surrounding space :D
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Sounds very plausible, but I think the Shivans used Sathani (or something bigger) to kill the ancients. If the war was truly fought on that massive of a scale, the Shivans probably wouldent bother with lucifers and they'd send in the heavy artillery.
But then again, the Ancient's weaponry was probably so poor that the Shivans may not have even bothered deploying the Sathanas fleet.
Dan's theory sounds good, though. :) And I do believe that the Sathanas fleet wasn't exactly the best the Shivans had to offer, as we don't know exactly how large the Shivans empire is. It must be at least the size of a galaxy if they were to mop up the ancients that easily. For a galactic size empire, it would be frightening to imagine a Shivan home-system. My vision is that the Shivan's home system is centered around a red giant star, with a Shivan installation (and I'm talking a massive one) actually built into the star. The Shivans then use the energy from this star to grow their ships organicly. The star is surrounded by death-star sized installations (referring to inferno's SI Hera). Surrounded by massive warships easily over 900k long. (IIRC Volition mentioned something about ships being so large that they had their own gravity well.) Smaller warships, (still more massive than the obsolete and old-fashoned sathanas class) patrol the outskirts of the system. Over 200 of these warships are eac about 40k long. The smallest waships in the system would be about 20k long (refer to Inferno's SSJ Gigas). The surrounding systems would be equally defended. When as Dan mentioned, the outer rim of the galaxy would be dotted with tiny, insignifficant fleets such as the Sathanas fleet. Such an idea would be quite frightining.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
Sounds very plausible, but I think the Shivans used Sathani (or something bigger) to kill the ancients. If the war was truly fought on that massive of a scale, the Shivans probably wouldent bother with lucifers and they'd send in the heavy artillery.
If the Ancient's empire had already begun expanding outside of their galaxy then the Shivans we would have seen would probably have been the ships involved in wiping out the last pockets of resistance. In other words the crappy older units that could be spared to go wondeing about killing Ancients rather than doing whatever it is that the shivans do :D
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I think that once the Shivans blasted the Ancients out of what is now GTVA space with their Sathani, they recalled their Sathani to their central systems. By the time the Sathanas fleet reached Shivan HQ, they reported that they killed the Ancients (which they did). The Shivans then sent a very small scouting party (Lucifer fleet) to mosey around in the area and crush any new developing civilizations.
When they came through Ross 128, the shivans were like "wtf?! :wtf: I thought we killed these guys already!" After the Lucifer fleet was destroyed, shivan command was thinking "wtf!? :wtf: Our scouting party didn't return!" Shivan HQ then sent a nearby Sathanas fleet (probably a few systems back from the binary system (into the lions den) to investigate the dissapearance of the LF. They sent in a destroyer (SD Ravana) to scout the area ahead and make sure they weren't running into a trap.
As souts were patrolling the nebula past GD, they detected a sudden subspace reading. Someone opened the Ancient's portal! Now the Shivans were sure that they were facing their old Nemesis. The Shivans first sent in small vessels and 1 Sathanas to crush these "Ancients". After their Sathanas was destroyed, they got really pissed and sent in 80 of them.
As they reached Capella, they decided that the best move was to destroy Capella in order to test out their new weapon. Before, they could destroy planets, but now they wanted to see if they could destroy a star. They figured that then would be a perfect time to experiment, as the system after a supernova would provide a battle advantage for the Shivans. Post supernova systems are probably really hot. Shivan ships can withstand tremendous heat while terran hulls would melt. This would prevent the GTVA from converging on the Shivan territory, while the Shivans are free to strike.
The Shivans then blew up Capella. They used the explosion to generate subspace energy to get the hell outta there. They probably jumped from Capella to GD, when they returned a few minutes later. They found no jump nodes leading out of the system. Once again they were thinking "wtf!? :wtf: I coulda swore there were two nodes outta this system!" They then, realizing that they were blocked off, trudged back to Shivan HQ with the bad news.
My prediction for FS3,
Shivans get REALLY mad :mad: and send in uber huge Megajuggernauts from their core system, find a way into Terran controlled systems, and KILL THE TERRANS AND VASUDANS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!! DIE DIE GTVA! DDDIIIEEE!!!!!:nervous:
Yeah so that's what I think will happen. :)
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You mean like Inferno?
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Yeah, sorta. Except that the gate to Sol is never reopened. And the GTVA is completley wiped out. Freespace 4 will deal with the civil war struggles in Sol, interrupted untimley by the Shivans. The Shivans will blow up Sol with Juggernauts and the Terrans will be extinct. That way, Freespace would be a story of just another developing race crushed by the Shivans. Just like Bosch predicted in his first monologue. It would be nice for a video game series not ending with the good guys coming out on top as they always do.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
My vision is that the Shivan's home system is centered around a red giant star, with a Shivan installation (and I'm talking a massive one) actually built into the star. The Shivans then use the energy from this star to grow their ships organicly. The star is surrounded by death-star sized installations (referring to inferno's SI Hera). Surrounded by massive warships easily over 900k long. (IIRC Volition mentioned something about ships being so large that they had their own gravity well.) Smaller warships, (still more massive than the obsolete and old-fashoned sathanas class) patrol the outskirts of the system. Over 200 of these warships are eac about 40k long. The smallest waships in the system would be about 20k long (refer to Inferno's SSJ Gigas). The surrounding systems would be equally defended. When as Dan mentioned, the outer rim of the galaxy would be dotted with tiny, insignifficant fleets such as the Sathanas fleet. Such an idea would be quite frightining.
Shivan installation built into the STAR? Shivans have installations on the surface od a SUN? Well, I gues 10000000000 degrees doesn't bother them or their OGRANIC ships... it's not like burn't organic matter can't regenerate...
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Originally posted by KappaWing
I think that once the Shivans blasted the Ancients out of what is now GTVA space with their Sathani, they recalled their Sathani to their central systems. By the time the Sathanas fleet reached Shivan HQ, they reported that they killed the Ancients (which they did). The Shivans then sent a very small scouting party (Lucifer fleet) to mosey around in the area and crush any new developing civilizations.
When they came through Ross 128, the shivans were like "wtf?! :wtf: I thought we killed these guys already!" After the Lucifer fleet was destroyed, shivan command was thinking "wtf!? :wtf: Our scouting party didn't return!" Shivan HQ then sent a nearby Sathanas fleet (probably a few systems back from the binary system (into the lions den) to investigate the dissapearance of the LF. They sent in a destroyer (SD Ravana) to scout the area ahead and make sure they weren't running into a trap.
As souts were patrolling the nebula past GD, they detected a sudden subspace reading. Someone opened the Ancient's portal! Now the Shivans were sure that they were facing their old Nemesis. The Shivans first sent in small vessels and 1 Sathanas to crush these "Ancients". After their Sathanas was destroyed, they got really pissed and sent in 80 of them.
As they reached Capella, they decided that the best move was to destroy Capella in order to test out their new weapon. Before, they could destroy planets, but now they wanted to see if they could destroy a star. They figured that then would be a perfect time to experiment, as the system after a supernova would provide a battle advantage for the Shivans. Post supernova systems are probably really hot. Shivan ships can withstand tremendous heat while terran hulls would melt. This would prevent the GTVA from converging on the Shivan territory, while the Shivans are free to strike.
The Shivans then blew up Capella. They used the explosion to generate subspace energy to get the hell outta there. They probably jumped from Capella to GD, when they returned a few minutes later. They found no jump nodes leading out of the system. Once again they were thinking "wtf!? :wtf: I coulda swore there were two nodes outta this system!" They then, realizing that they were blocked off, trudged back to Shivan HQ with the bad news.
My prediction for FS3,
Shivans get REALLY mad :mad: and send in uber huge Megajuggernauts from their core system, find a way into Terran controlled systems, and KILL THE TERRANS AND VASUDANS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!! DIE DIE GTVA! DDDIIIEEE!!!!!:nervous:
Yeah so that's what I think will happen. :)
So... little... justification :blah:
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It doesent bother them at all actually. IMHO Shivan ships are made out of artificially grown material that only melts at extremely high temperatures (more than that of a star). This could be true bacause there is no canon evidence of Shivans ever having a temperature tolerance limit. The Shivan bodies themselves are made out of elements unknown to Terrans or Vasudans. Obviously if a GTVA vessel approached this central installation, it would surley melt due to the temperatures.
There is canon evidence, however, of Shivan bodies and Shivan alloys being made out of highly advanced material.
If you believe the Shivan Manefesto story, there is even furher evidence to back this up. The fact that Shivans come from subspace which there is no temperature at all explains why temperature means nothing to them or their materials which they grow.
[V] never gave any hint at what a Shivan home system may be like, so this is all open to speculation.
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i agree that the good guys should lose at least once, like a battle of the line and your pilot is supposd to die in the last mission along with most of the fleet in one big battle (in a cutscene rather than ingame) but ultimatly there are some survivors who run away etc etc, then fs4 would be the solution on beating back/negotiating truce with the shivans.
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[q]negotiating truce with the shivans.[/q]
*walks in*
*beats dan senseless then shoves his head up his own arse*
*walks out*
Never say that again.
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Ummm.... That was uncalled for. :wtf:
But I'm afraid that I have to agree with vyper on that one. Shivans don't like truces. Why would the Shivans want a truce when they could just blast the Terrans to smithereens? Usually truces only happen when both sides are equal, or else the dominant side has no reason to approve a truce.
Secondly, Shivans don't make truces.
But I like your cutscene idea, just take out the part about the survivors. There needs to be an ending at some point or another. But then again, maybe it would be better to leave the ending open for a more imaginative approach besides "Shivans warp in! Kill GTVA! Die! Die! Die!"
I would be happy with any ending as long as the GTVA loses, or else the series would become too cliche.
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Originally posted by vyper
[q]negotiating truce with the shivans.[/q]
*walks in*
*beats dan senseless then shoves his head up his own arse*
*walks out*
Never say that again.
thanks for that, as i said, 'theory' and u never know by the time a 4th fs was to come along.....lol obviously it wont come anyway, but that's not the point
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:eek: What!!! No FS4!!! You're kidding me, right?
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Please tell me you are being sarcastic Kappa, :wtf: there isn't going to be a *that which cannot be named* let alone an FS4:blah: :snipe:
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Originally posted by dan87uk
thanks for that, as i said, 'theory' and u never know by the time a 4th fs was to come along.....lol obviously it wont come anyway, but that's not the point
Generally on forums it is considered rude if you use abbreaviations like 'U' or 'Da' instead of you or the. Abbreviations like IIRC, AFAIK, HLP, WTF, LOL are OK but grammar is your friend.
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No way man! I coulda swore they were releasing Freespace x (with x being an integer 4>x>2) sometime next month!
Oh and btw, yes I'm being sarcastic. ;)
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thats anything from 2+(0.1x10^infinate) to 4-(0.1x10^infinate)... :p You have to specify whole number :D
*goes back to avoiding these topics*
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Doesen't an integer refer to a whole number?
Well, if it doesen't then I have no other choice...
Arggg! Alright then! I shall proclaim that which cannot be expressed in any other way;
Freespace 3! Freespace 3! Freespace 3!
*Runs away and hides in corner* :nervous:
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Originally posted by KappaWing
It doesent bother them at all actually. IMHO Shivan ships are made out of artificially grown material that only melts at extremely high temperatures (more than that of a star). This could be true bacause there is no canon evidence of Shivans ever having a temperature tolerance limit. The Shivan bodies themselves are made out of elements unknown to Terrans or Vasudans. Obviously if a GTVA vessel approached this central installation, it would surley melt due to the temperatures.
There is canon evidence, however, of Shivan bodies and Shivan alloys being made out of highly advanced material.
If you believe the Shivan Manefesto story, there is even furher evidence to back this up. The fact that Shivans come from subspace which there is no temperature at all explains why temperature means nothing to them or their materials which they grow.
[V] never gave any hint at what a Shivan home system may be like, so this is all open to speculation.
Excuse me...but are you clinicly insane? where do you get this stuff?
First of all, the Shivan manifesto isn't cannon... Only thing cannon about shivans is what is written in the tech room and what you see in the movies.
Now read this - NOTHING...NOTHING can stay in solid state when exposed to that temperature...
Shivans ships aren't organic - this we know, since you flew Dragons and Maras outfitted with terrna tech.
Secondly, shivan bodies aren't made of unknown materials or alloys...
It's tru that [V] told us nothing of shivan origin...perhaps they don't even havea home system..
But please, think before you post such....redicolous theories...
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Now read this - NOTHING...NOTHING can stay in solid state when exposed to that temperature...
Shivans ships aren't organic - this we know, since you flew Dragons and Maras outfitted with terrna tech.
Secondly, shivan bodies aren't made of unknown materials or alloys...
Perhaps the Lucifer could, and you have no basis for this statement: "shivan bodies aren't made of unknown materials or alloys..."
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If they can wistand temperatures greater than a star then they can clearly walk through beam cannons with out noticing that they are bing fired at!
My pet theory is that the SV's are involved in a much bigger war. Also i dont think the ancients would have been a push over or even poorly armed. To an extent you are as well armed as tech allows even if you dont actualy develope the wepons.
For examle the ancients were clearly hugely advanced in subspace so could probably use this to their advantage for example using weapons that cause small subspace vorticies ripping chunks of the oposing vessel into subspace while leaving the rest there. Conseptualy not imposible judging by the Knossos tech base. Also the tech you use in your car is low compared to the army yes, so the knossos could have been so common in the ancient empire that they were centuries behind their actual tech level, especialy if the shievens saw no point in destroying them.
The Knossos could have been so common the shieves where satisfied with the death of the race not bothering to rip up every yard of road that race put down metaphoricaly.
This leads to the possiblity that the shievens are able to taylor their ships and weapons to the target. If the Lucifer was all powerfull against the ancients subspace tech then maybe it was vulnerable to our "lower" tech. Thus they send in better armed but less unneccesarily armoured ships ie. the Sahs to wipe us out and not give us the advantage of taking appart or capturing tech that would give us a desisive advantage by combing our tech with ancient.
Thats my two cents.
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Shivan ships ARE organic. They are grown at a central location which also serves to be the home of the hive mind.
After Shivan ships have grown fully, they are fitted with mechanized subsystem parts.
The reason command didn't think that these ships were alive is due to one simple theory: integration. When a Shivan is killed or removed from his vessel, the vessel dies because the Shivan is no longer supplying it with life energy. The GTVA only fitted the ships AFTER the Shivan in the cockpit was removed, so to the GTVA, the Dragon or Mara was just a big lump of unidentifed material, which the GTVA studied and learned how to enhance it.
I know the Shivan Manefesto isn't cannon but there is NO evidence anywhere to prove that Shivans or their ORGANIC ships have a melting point. Shivans are so technologically advanced that they probably engineered themselves & their ships to be immune to heat. Shivans do stuff like that.
This post was origionally gonna be a lot longer but damn AOL had a fatal error just as I hit "submit reply". :mad:
So HA!
Edit-
If they can wistand temperatures greater than a star then they can clearly walk through beam cannons with out noticing that they are bing fired at!
Beams are not heat based weapons. They are energy based weapons designed to rip apart atoms and such.
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No melting point? Shurly that defies the basic laws of physics.
I mean give something enough energy and eventualy the atomic bonds will break thats just basic physics that nomatter how advanced you cant get arround.
and also in the game we see a melted cruser and corrvet both severaly damged and melted looking when cappela goes up.
also if you are impervious to temperature you can logicaly follow that yo are impervious to any energy changes including kinetic as your atomic bonds are infinite therfore the GTVA would be unable to even scratch the SV's.
Also if you assume the armour is added on how do you cut and from something with infinite bond strength.
If you asume it is grown then it is organic and has to have a temp limate for survival.
And if we are going down the road of Uber tech then it would probably be easier to phase your ship partialy into subspace and thus render realspace weapons usles for a fraction of a second the fully phase back into reall space and whoop ass.
Also if you have the tech to make your ships impervious (see points above!!!!) then you would be at a tech level so far in advance of the GTVA's then one fighter would probably be enough to kill them all let alone a fleet.
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It doesent bother them at all actually. IMHO Shivan ships are made out of artificially grown material that only melts at extremely high temperatures (more than that of a star).
They have melting points, just more than that of a star's temp. (yeah, they are really high. :nod: ) Notice i said "really high", not that they have no melting point. That would be illogical.
And on Capella...
Melted looking? I always thought it was the pre-Shockwave that messed up the ships with sheer force. The heat must arrive after the second shockwave because the heat can only occur after the star explodes...
Let's say for a moment that you're right and the Shivan ship DID melt. That is because first the shockwave hit and severley messed up the material's inner structure. The ship would have melted after that because the material was screwed with by the initial shockwave.
Shivan technology (along with their armada) is vast but not infinite. It would take a higher level of tech to make ships partially resistant to energy than to make them partially resistant to heat. Their development of Shields shows that they have expertise in that area.
If you asume it is grown then it is organic and has to have a temp limate for survival.
As mentioned earlier in this post, it does have a limit which is higher than that of a star. Shivans can do that because it's their artificially engineered life form.
I never said that they were "impervious", just "highly resistant". When I said "immune to heat" I meant the heat of a star, not heat in general. In order to melt a shivan ship, I'm guessig you would need heat that can be found in the core of a star, but a surface installation would be able to withstand such heat.
-Edit
That's pretty much what I meant to say in the previous post before AOL screwed me. :hopping:
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aghhhh
so you are saying beams are hotter or at least as hot as the center of a star?
Also Heat is a measure of energy. It is simply the total internal kinetic energy possesed by a mass.
So if they could wistand huge (now we have found that energy of a mass is heat) energies then they could withstand any kinetic or thermal radiation enrgy inputs upto their limate.
Also the ammount of energy you can absorb is limated by the strength of the atmoic foces holding
1) the molecules to gether
2) the atoms in the molecules together
3) the sub atomic particals together
And no matter how advanced you are there are physical limates on these factors that you can not alter. Its a simple matter of bonding and the weak and the strong nuclear forces.
Also just because they are SV's and they "grow" thier ships it does not mean they can alter the laws of physics.
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I see two things about the shivans:
1) A failure to communicate. Seems none but Adm. Bosch was able to or ever wished to.
2) The shivans' attacks would mean an attempt to defend. It might be possible that the Ancients were similar or far superior than the shivans. No wonder why the Shivans advanced so much in subspace.
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The Shivans have altered the laws of physics before! Using some subspace wave to destroy a star is definatley not within the laws of physics.
And no matter how advanced you are there are physical limates on these factors that you can not alter. Its a simple matter of bonding and the weak and the strong nuclear forces.
Simple! Use magic!
ummmmm.... I'm getting a tad too desperate there. I think it's time I abandoned my theory.
I shall now compose a new theory about the Shivans' home system, one with more scientific basis and less imagination.
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Ahh... I got one!
Theory #2
Deep within Shivan territory lies a black hole, one of the most enigmatic phenomena known to man. A force so powerful that It can only be tamed by the Shivans!!!
Deep within the home system of the Shivans.....
There is a gigantic Shivan installation built around this black hole. It is basically a large, red-and-black pulsating sphere. The Shivans invented technology where their ships can counteract gravity by having the area immediatley around their ships exist in the Subspace plane as well as the Universe. So therefore, they are immune to gravity but they lose their shields. (This technology can be turned on and off at will of the Shivans.) Sprouting from this sphere are millions of giant protruding arms, each with crystalline blobs at the end. Some are over 400 kilometers long while some are a mere 10 meters long. The blobs slowly take shape over time and form into genetically engineered spacecraft. The Spherical installation can collect the infinite amount of energy offered by the black hole to constantly produce these ships. Once the Ships are fully grown, they are guided into a space yard where they are fitted with mechanized subsystems and electronic parts. Shivans are implanted and integrated into these vessels for the remainder of their lifetime.
Then blah blah blah about the giant ships patrolling the surrounding systems which I explained earlier in this thread.
So there you go. At least it's better than my last theory.
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Originally posted by mrduckman
2) The shivans' attacks would mean an attempt to defend. It might be possible that the Ancients were similar or far superior than the shivans. No wonder why the Shivans advanced so much in subspace. [/B]
I like the idea. Another thought, Maybe the ancients were far superior and still are it is possible that of an empir of that size areas were cut of and thought that all was lost (our galactic are where our ancient info comes from). And thus the shievens are still engaged in a much larger war where we are insignifi**** but annoying enough to pose a threat and therfore to be whiped out. Also maybe the SV's see some advantage in our spacial are Cappella??? And simply did not see this untill we opened the knossos and reminded them?
It could be that we are in an effective nomans land between the "ancients" that survived and are still at war with the SV's and that destroying us gives them an advantage, maybe an excuse to move into teritory maked as a nutral zone and set up base.
It would be nise to think that something could scare SV's though? lol
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I'd say that there isn't a law that wasn't altered before, anyway.
Besides, there are things we don't know and can't even begin to understand.
Antimatter is quite new. Artificial gravity, same thing..
Now, do we know subspace for real? :)
Originally posted by KappaWing
The Shivans have altered the laws of physics before! Using some subspace wave to destroy a star is definatley not within the laws of physics.
Simple! Use magic!
ummmmm.... I'm getting a tad too desperate there. I think it's time I abandoned my theory.
I shall now compose a new theory about the Shivans' home system, one with more scientific basis and less imagination.
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Originally posted by Hippo
thats anything from 2+(0.1x10^infinate) to 4-(0.1x10^infinate)... :p You have to specify whole number :D
*goes back to avoiding these topics*
umm... m'm prteety sure you couldnt be more wrong if you tried.
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You still favor organic ships? I didn't see any shivan ship bleed whan you shoot him...
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Organic =/= Bleeds
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I mean organic life as in a plant. AFAIK, plant's don't bleed either! :p
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*throws acid at shivans ships*
That'll get them bastards :p
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Originally posted by TrashMan
You still favor organic ships? I didn't see any shivan ship bleed whan you shoot him...
Organic ships aren't necessarily alive, of course; just grown.
But I've never seen any canon evidence of Shivan vessels being organic in nature; including Hallfight. Shivan individuals are, but that's scarely evidence - by the same reckoning human ships can be made of skin and cloth.
What I'm wondering is, is this - http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Shivans - bit of the Wiki all canon (particularly the 'technology' part). I'm not sure it is.
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It's pretty close. I just watched the intelligence brief on Shivans the other day and most, if not all, of those points are there.
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As far as I can remember the shivans did not step over any phisichs laws....they used some sort of subspace filed which we know can generte masive amount of gravitational forces....to colapse the nucleas of the Cappella star..! Basicly what they did was to age the star to the point of its death (supernovae).
But what about this theory:
The shivans saw how much theyr old nemesis came in a very short time and started thinking "wtf? how did these guys managed to survive let alone improve on their weaponry"
Then the GTV has one more surprise for them..yes you guesed it the Colossus.
So they are like how the hell did they managed to build that thing in such a short time...?
remember that the whole role of the shivans isn't that of genocidal maniacs but also that of great preservers.
So the shivans realize that no matter how much they try to destroy these primitive beeings they wont completely succede..! the whole colapsing nodes thing.
They have learned to cooperate and coexist with one another and therefore have learned the secret to theyr survival. Lets not forget that during the first shivan war these guis were only working together because theyr existence depended on it. Who could of believed that theyr aliance would last and prosper and evolve. Remember that there was more then one instance when terra ships were saved or aided by the vasudans and the same goes for the vasudans.
So when they decided not to destroy the GTVA but rather delay its expansion by its destruction of the Capella star they actualy made some sort of temparary peace in twisted and genocidal kind of way. They also made a statement:
"either you work togheter and learn to coexist with eachother and who ever you might encounter, or this will be yout fate...!"
Remember that the GTVA has lost one of its most important sistems as well as most of its fleet. My guess is that the shivans saw that the GTVA would eventualy get over this and become even more powerfull not as powerfull as them but more powerfull and a lot more wise.
And if let's say for the sake of the arguement they are involved in some sort of war much bigger then what they had with the GTVA that could only reinforce the belief that they were actualy preaparing us for this war in case they lose.
Sure a lot will say that how good is that when you are getting your most important sistems cut off from you or destroyed but think about it. The terrans lost most of theyr manufacturing capabilities not to mention the most abundant resource harvesting field they had (Sol) but that did not stop them they adapted they evolved. Now if they had not survived then to the shivans its all the same.
The GTVA made a statement just like they did (sivans) when faced with the ancients "we will not lie down and die just like that. If we are to go down then we would make it such a battle...that we will not be forgotten " The ancints werent they were eventualy discovered by GTVA archeologists.
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My guess is that the shivans saw that the GTVA would eventualy get over this and become even more powerfull not as powerfull as them but more powerfull and a lot more wise.
It was this and other places in your theory where you tried to humanize shivans, implying that they experience fear and such.
And the GTVA will NEVER become more powerful than the Shivans (the Shivans and the GTVA knows this), plus the shivans simply have unlimited resources. Those are your two major flaws but other than that, the rest seems to make sense.
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Well again i'm not tryng to humanize them. But it would be unwise to think of the shivans as plain old genocidal maniacs.
I was tryng to say that because theyr role is that of great preservers maibe just maibe they saw the potential in us. They saw that the GTVA would eventualy come to reach theyr technological level or even better them in some areas.
Keep in mind that the GTVA has proved to be superbly skilled in adapting and improving on existing technologies of other races.
Think of the terran Mara which was a lot more powerfull then the original.
That is what i'm tryng to say.
Of course the shivans need not fear us they have no reason to but maibe just maibe they began to reagard of us as more then just another backwater civilization.
The Ancients were exterminated because they did not learn from theyr mistakes. They believed it to be almost imposible for an empire as great as theyrs and as technologicly advanced as theyrs to be wiped out by these strange beeings.
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Of course there is the possibility that the fleet that wiped out the Ancients was not just the Shivan's scouting party (Lucifer fleet), but also the entire Sathanas armada and/or maybe something more. :rolleyes:
If such a possibility were to become true, then this is just the beginning of a much larger fight.
[/speculate mode]
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Or perhaps the Shivans are simply drawn to conflict, like locusts to crops, and it took the main force 30-odd years to reach the GTVA.
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Well we can debate all we want, but the truth is we'l never know the full shivan story unless :V: can get the game rights back and start making *that which cannot be mentioned* ....:nervous: ..:blah:
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Originally posted by KappaWing
It was this and other places in your theory where you tried to humanize shivans, implying that they experience fear and such.
And the GTVA will NEVER become more powerful than the Shivans (the Shivans and the GTVA knows this), plus the shivans simply have unlimited resources. Those are your two major flaws but other than that, the rest seems to make sense.
Shivan = living beaing.
All living beaings have basic emotions. Fear being one of them
Thus, Shivans can experience fear.
they are alien and thus, they way of thinking MIGHT (not necessarily) be completely different, but they too must share the basic properties of living things...
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Shivans != living beings
Shivans = cybernetic beings
therefore
state of mind = unknown
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Shivans != living beings
Shivans = cybernetic beings
Why not Shivans = living beings? No reason why not, especially as they are partially biological anyways.
Originally posted by TrashMan
Shivan = living beaing.
All living beaings have basic emotions. Fear being one of them
Thus, Shivans can experience fear.
they are alien and thus, they way of thinking MIGHT (not necessarily) be completely different, but they too must share the basic properties of living things...
Why should fear (or even emotions) be an integral part of life? There's absolutely no proof I've seen of it; in fact I think there's been debate over whether these sort of emotion exist in, for example, foxes (with regard to the hunting debate).
The Shivans - or indeed any other animal - may have a very different 'fight or flight' mechanism that doesn't require it.
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Fear was mearly evolutions method of stopping people (and maybe some animals) from doing stupid things.
There's nothing to say that another species wouldn't find a better method of doing it. Especially since fear can be debilitating at times and actually lessen the chances of survival.
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Fear is a funny thing. It can make you unable to fight, but it can also make you an excellent fighter when you were horrible before.
Still, if you consider that pretty much every animal on Earth with a significantly sized brain exhibits a fear response of some sort, then I don't find it all that difficult to believe that the ability to fear would be a universal rule.
On the other hand, the Shivans seem to fear nothing and no one, which means either they don't fear on an individual level or they have some kind of conditioning against it. If they are a hive mind, as the theory runs, then I expect that they can fear, but not on an individual level.
But, seriously now, if the Sathanas was on a recon mission, how many times have you flown recon against the Shivans in a fighter? The Sathanas and the Lucifer both, the Eva, several other ships. They didn't HAVE to use a Sathanas to find out what the Colossus was capable of: a fighter wing running scans gives the same information. The GTVA learned what the Sathanas was capable of using Alpha 1 and a Ptah, after all.
As for needing the Colossus to be nearby, I've already pointed out that it's in Capella anyways, and there's no other task for it besides standing guard against the Shivans, Sathanas or not, so logically it would be in Capella and blockading the Capella-GD node. Even if it was elsewhere in the system, a recon wing could probably find it still. Besides, the Colossus is the GTVA's most powerful warship. It isn't going to be hiding. It's going to be standing guard at the Capella-GD node to ease the minds of the good citizens of Capella.
The only reason to use a Sathanas would be if Shivan fighter sensors are less advanced then those of the GTVA, and that explanation doesn't sound likely in light of the Shivans apparently operating just fine in the nebula.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Fear is a funny thing. It can make you unable to fight, but it can also make you an excellent fighter when you were horrible before.
That's not just fear, that's adrenaline. Fight or flight response doesn't entail fear, just a response. In us we manifest it as fear because that's how our own brain processes it.
NB: both missions to scan the Sath and Lucifer used a Stealth fighter and captured Shivan fighter respectively. AFAIK the Shivans have neither stealth fighters nor captured GTVA fighters.
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True, but we know that standard GTVA fighters are capable of conducting detailed scans, and with a few wings running interference for you and distracting the Sathanas, you could have accomplished the same mission with a Tauret or other standard fighter. There's no reason why the Shivans couldn't do the same thing to the Colossus.
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you guys need to read the tech room databases, and what Pletcher said. The Shivans are living beings that are cybernetically enhanced. this is an objective fact.
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The Shivans have no reason to conduct reconassance. They know that the GTVA is weak and feeble, as they couldent advance too far in 32 years. It's simply a matter of how much force is neccisary to destroy the GTVA. 1 Sathani? 80 Sathani? The Shivans don't deploy everything unless absolutley neccisary. They are perfectly capable of scanning and capturing, but why mess around when you could just send in a Sathanas fleet to blast away the GTVA quickly and efficiently?
I also disagree with the notion that Shivans experience fear. They (as a collective hive mind) never had anything to fear because they never were in any real danger. They easily defeat all they encounter, so they never experienced fear and probably don't even know what fear is. IMHO, the fact that Shivans destroy things indescrimatley and possess a hive mind indicates that Shivans feel no emotion at all. The hive mind might feel it, but individual Shivans would not be affected.
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it isn't a given that the Shivans have a hive mind. That is conjecture, and so the arguement is based on conjecture.
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IT'S..... TRUE!!!!!!!
All evidence points to hive mindedness! Just look at the first few pages of this thread! It's a PROVEN FACT!!!
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show me where in canon it is a proven fact. it isn't proven.
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It's canonically the leading theory, supported by the behavior of the Shivan fleet after the destruction of the Lucifer. Beyond that, it's all conjecture.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
They are perfectly capable of scanning and capturing, but why mess around when you could just send in a Sathanas fleet to blast away the GTVA quickly and efficiently?
Because it's not efficent to use all 80+ Sathanas juggernauts? If they were just out to kill the GTVA, they only would have needed 5 or so for a swift, decisive, and assured victory.
I've already shown that the GTVA has outstripped the Shivans in the realm of fighter-based technology. Go look at the Eryines. One of them can take down a wing of Maras all by itself. The GTVA can't beat the Shivans...but the Shivans ought to start worrying a bit. If the GTVA can build a fighter so superior that a single one can defeat a wing of Shivan fighters, or worse, two or three unescorted cruisers, then it's time to start worrying about them.
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You assume the Shivans even care about fighters & carriers beyond using them for cannon fodder, though. They sure as hell didn't care about anything but the Saths in Capella (assuming they intended to nova the star in the first place).
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Because it's not efficent to use all 80+ Sathanas juggernauts? If they were just out to kill the GTVA, they only would have needed 5 or so for a swift, decisive, and assured victory.
They needed 80 for the experiment to work, which I talked about earlier. Besides, the Shivans don't know exactly how large the fleet is. If the GTVA has been concentrating every single resource and citizen to build a massive warship fleet, then they could have built up to 10 Colossus-Class Warships.
I've already shown that the GTVA has outstripped the Shivans in the realm of fighter-based technology. Go look at the Eryines. One of them can take down a wing of Maras all by itself. The GTVA can't beat the Shivans...but the Shivans ought to start worrying a bit. If the GTVA can build a fighter so superior that a single one can defeat a wing of Shivan fighters, or worse, two or three unescorted cruisers, then it's time to start worrying about them.
What difficulty are you playing on? Very easy? Freespace is meant to be played on Normal to Hard difficulty. In this mode, an Erinyes matches a Mara 1 to 1.
Besides, the GTVA probably hasen't even SEEN the best Shivan fighter yet. For all we know, the Mara, Astaroth, Aeshma, etc. could ALL have a superior replacement that the Shivans have either kept to guard their home systems (see my theory earlier), or don't want to risk the GTVA capturing it.
Remember, the system beyond GD and the Binary System (lions den) are all frontier worlds for the Shivans, and frontier systems have more primitive technology, where the biggest guns are swarming around the central systems.
For example, the deployment of the Nephilim, Astaroth, and Mara are signs that the Shivans are actually starting to take the GTVA seriuously, but not seriously enough to send in the best warships and fighters/bombers.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Still, if you consider that pretty much every animal on Earth with a significantly sized brain exhibits a fear response of some sort, then I don't find it all that difficult to believe that the ability to fear would be a universal rule.
Do I believe that the Shivans could feel fear. Yes. Why not. The Vasudans certainly do.
Do I believe that the Shivans have to be able to feel fear. Never in a million years.
You point to the fact that all of the smarter animals on Earth feel fear but failed to consider the fact that they all share a common ancestor.
It's also worth pointing out that even if the shivans did have fear when they evolved there's no reason that they still have it. A race that is willing to become cybernetic probably has no problem with removing other defects at the genetic level. The same is true if the shivans were created by something else.
Originally posted by StratComm
It's canonically the leading theory, supported by the behavior of the Shivan fleet after the destruction of the Lucifer. Beyond that, it's all conjecture.
To be honest I'd say that that was better evidence for the existance of a leadership caste rather than a hive mind. If the Lucifer was the brain of a hive mind you'd pretty much expect the body to fall over dead once it was destroyed.
The fact that the shivans still acted as a group even if highly disorganised shows that they were still capable of low level organisation even without the Lucifer. With a hive mind the shivans probably wouldn't be capable of that kind of organisation as all such functions would have gone through the brain. I'd have expected the shivans to have acted at random (or at least with random hostility).
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The Lucifer isn't the core of the hive mind, just a sub hive mind off of the main central hive mind, that is why the Lucifer was so important, but it also explains why the Shivans came back after 32 years; the main hive was still intact.
The main hive mind exists in the Sphere that I explained earlier. The main hive mind communicates to lesser hive minds (such as the one housed in the Lucifer) for battlegroups extremely far away from the Shivan home system. Once the Lucifer was destroyed, the Shivans took orders from higher up in the Hive Mind chain, which would be the main hive mind itself. That hive mind was so far away that the Shivans couldent communicate effectively with it. That explains why they were disorganized but it also explains why they weren't totally random.
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Doesn't explain why the Shivans completely ignored the GTVA for 32 years though.
Besides the back of the FS2 box does quite clearly state that the Shivans are wondering what happened to their scouting party. No idea how canon that is but it does suggest that the Shivans didn't know what had happened to the Lucifer.
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Before the Lucifer left, the Shivans probably told them to report back in a few years. When they didn't, the Shivans assumed their 'scouting party' or whatever the Lucifer Fleet was, got in trouble. Besides, that old 'Ross 128 - Shivan System 'node was probably unstable. The Shivans had to snatch the window of oppurtunity to squeeze their LF through while they still could. The Main hive probably detected the loss of the Sub hive (Lucifer) long before the period was up, but they couldent send in more forces because the 'Ross 128 - Shivan System' node completley collapsed (due to natural phenomena). And remember, it was Admiral Bosch who led the Shivans to Allied space by activating the Knossos.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
What difficulty are you playing on? Very easy? Freespace is meant to be played on Normal to Hard difficulty. In this mode, an Erinyes matches a Mara 1 to 1.
I play on normal, and I've seen a wingman of mine (not even me, an AI-controlled wingman) take down four Maras with ease. On normal I can take down whole 18-ship squadrons of Maras. So, the question becomes, what difficulty are you playing at?
Besides, look at the raw numbers in the table entries. The Eryines is easily better in every significant area save speed without the AB on and missile capacity. Eight guns to four, thicker armor, better shielding, equal or better speed on burner, better manuverablity. There is no Shivan fighter that can stand up to the Eryines one-on-one when an AI pilot is behind the controls of each.
As for the cruisers...Maxim. Hell, you could blast unescorted Shivan cruisers all day and not get a scratch.
Originally posted by KappaWing
Besides, the GTVA probably hasen't even SEEN the best Shivan fighter yet. For all we know, the Mara, Astaroth, Aeshma, etc. could ALL have a superior replacement that the Shivans have either kept to guard their home systems (see my theory earlier), or don't want to risk the GTVA capturing it.
There is no canon evidence for different ship types with vastly better or vastly different abilities from those that we know of. Therefore the existance of such ships is purely speculative, and must bow to the existance of ships that can be found in ships.tbl.
Originally posted by KappaWing
Remember, the system beyond GD and the Binary System (lions den) are all frontier worlds for the Shivans, and frontier systems have more primitive technology, where the biggest guns are swarming around the central systems.
Are you sure? Really, really sure? After all, we've never seen a Shivan installation, they seem to be specially adapted for life in zero-gee, and they show no interest in planets or even spaceborne resources like asteroid fields. The only resourcing operation of the Shivans we've ever seen was a collection of gas miners. They might not even have core systems, but instead be nomadic or semi-nomadic.
Also, the logic behind holding your big guns back is faulty, particularly since the Shivans seem to be a very aggressive civilization. Reserve units are composed of older equipment, correct? Reserve units are what you find at home. New units are what you find out at the pointy end of the stick on the frontier, because that's where the new units are needed.
Originally posted by KappaWing
For example, the deployment of the Nephilim, Astaroth, and Mara are signs that the Shivans are actually starting to take the GTVA seriuously, but not seriously enough to send in the best warships and fighters/bombers.
You draw a lot from the Nahema's tech room entry, and conveniently ignore that it also mentions the ship could be simply brand-new instead.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
Before the Lucifer left, the Shivans probably told them to report back in a few years. When they didn't, the Shivans assumed their 'scouting party' or whatever the Lucifer Fleet was, got in trouble.
:wtf: That completely contradicts your theory that the main hive mind was controlling the remaining Shivan forces after the destruction of the Lucifer.
If they suddenly had to take over control of the remaining elements of the lucifer fleet they must have instantly been aware of the destruction of the Lucifer.
Originally posted by KappaWing
Besides, that old 'Ross 128 - Shivan System 'node was probably unstable. The Shivans had to snatch the window of oppurtunity to squeeze their LF through while they still could. The Main hive probably detected the loss of the Sub hive (Lucifer) long before the period was up, but they couldent send in more forces because the 'Ross 128 - Shivan System' node completley collapsed (due to natural phenomena). And remember, it was Admiral Bosch who led the Shivans to Allied space by activating the Knossos.
Maybe. That's all complete supposition though. Not a shred of evidence to support it. Besides it still doesn't cover that line about the Shivans wondering what happened to the scouts. They would have known exactly what happened to them. They would have just been unable to do anything about it until Bosch opened the portal.
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I play on normal, and I've seen a wingman of mine (not even me, an AI-controlled wingman) take down four Maras with ease. On normal I can take down whole 18-ship squadrons of Maras. So, the question becomes, what difficulty are you playing at?
Besides, look at the raw numbers in the table entries. The Eryines is easily better in every significant area save speed without the AB on and missile capacity. Eight guns to four, thicker armor, better shielding, equal or better speed on burner, better manuverablity. There is no Shivan fighter that can stand up to the Eryines one-on-one when an AI pilot is behind the controls of each.
As for the cruisers...Maxim. Hell, you could blast unescorted Shivan cruisers all day and not get a scratch.
I usually play on normal/hard but I alter the individual AI in Fred so you're probably right there. [V] had to dumb them down a bit to make them beatable, or else the game would be nearly impossible.
Are you sure? Really, really sure? After all, we've never seen a Shivan installation, they seem to be specially adapted for life in zero-gee, and they show no interest in planets or even spaceborne resources like asteroid fields. The only resourcing operation of the Shivans we've ever seen was a collection of gas miners. They might not even have core systems, but instead be nomadic or semi-nomadic.
Also, the logic behind holding your big guns back is faulty, particularly since the Shivans seem to be a very aggressive civilization. Reserve units are composed of older equipment, correct? Reserve units are what you find at home. New units are what you find out at the pointy end of the stick on the frontier, because that's where the new units are needed.
When Petrarch said that the Shivans were 'nomads', that was pure speculation without any factual basis. Their behavior indicated that they are spreading out from their home system and the GTVA is in the systems that the Shivans are trying to spread into.
The reason we never saw any Shivan installations was because we never encroached more than 2 systems in their territory, and their territory may be 100+ systems deep. When I said frontier 'worlds', I meant frontier 'systems'. Sorry about that. I know Shivans don't hang around on planets but as I mentioned earlier they have (0-G) installations in their home systems. They have to command and rally somewhere.
Shivans are agressive, but not rediculously so. I consider the possibility that due to the Shivan's massive empire, they may be fighting battles on multiple fronts simultaniously that the GTVA has no knowlege of, as these Shivan-Other Species battles may be taking place in other galaxies. Shivans send the better units to fight off the more challenging enemies, and they use the GTVA as a way to cleanse their armada of long-outdated ships such as the Sathani while inflicting damage on the GTVA at the same time.
So basically, the best Shivan vessels are at the front lines, but not the lines shared with the GTVA. Shivans probably woulden't employ Terran military tactics anyway.
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(not @Kara but the posts above)
Um... not to nitpick, but you people do realise that the Shivans might not have territory anyways?
so whether or not they have reserves or front lines is about as suppositionary as whether they've deployed them or not. As indeed is the assumption whether or not the Shivans have better ships elsewhere; although natural gameplay progression would dictate they do, becuase what else would be added to FS3?
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That completely contradicts your theory that the main hive mind was controlling the remaining Shivan forces after the destruction of the Lucifer.
If they suddenly had to take over control of the remaining elements of the lucifer fleet they must have instantly been aware of the destruction of the Lucifer.
The hive mind is an automatic thing. It took control of the Shivans after the Lucifer got trashed but the return signal was unclear due to the distance. That is why they had the Lucifer in the first place, to relay the transmission.
Maybe. That's all complete supposition though. Not a shred of evidence to support it. Besides it still doesn't cover that line about the Shivans wondering what happened to the scouts. They would have known exactly what happened to them. They would have just been unable to do anything about it until Bosch opened the portal.
Thats exactly what I said!
The Main hive probably detected the loss of the Sub hive (Lucifer) long before the period was up, but they couldent send in more forces because the 'Ross 128 - Shivan System' node completley collapsed (due to natural phenomena).
It was difficult to detect at first, but the Shivans soon assumed that the Lucifer got destroyed due to lack of communication!
The evidence supporting the Ross 128 node collapse lies in the fact that the Shivans never used that node again and GTA couldent pick up the node.
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Except the Shivans have more than one way into GTVA space, even excluding GD and Ross 128.
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And what may that be?
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Originally posted by KappaWing
The hive mind is an automatic thing. It took control of the Shivans after the Lucifer got trashed but the return signal was unclear due to the distance. That is why they had the Lucifer in the first place, to relay the transmission.
:wtf: You're telling me that the hive mind was able to coordinate and plan attacks on GTVA positions without being able to recieve any data on where the GTVA forces were or what they were doing?
That's absolute nonsense.
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The Shivan attacks in FS1 came from all directions, not just Ross 128. Including in distant systems such as Ikeya (IIRC a command brief or techroom entry mentions speculation the Shivans used uncharted unstable nodes); they obviously did not come solely from Ross 128, or they would have quickly found Delta Serpentis and then Sol, instead there was a substantial front coming in from the right side of the node map.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
When Petrarch said that the Shivans were 'nomads', that was pure speculation without any factual basis. Their behavior indicated that they are spreading out from their home system and the GTVA is in the systems that the Shivans are trying to spread into.
And your entire series of posts isn't?
Their behaviour indicated nothing of the sort. If the shivans were indeed spreading outwards they would have seized GTVA space the first time they were there. There was no one to stop them after the ancients were gone after all.
A single demon class destroyer could have held the whole of GTVA space 8000 years ago.
Hell with a transport to rearm it a single Seraphim could prevent the rise of any culture dangerous to the Shivans.
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That is the reason why they were UNCOORDINATED!!! The Hive mind sent the signal that basically said "kill everyone" so that's what they did. That was why they didn't go bonkers, they were still recieving transmissions from the Main Hive but the Main Hive wasent getting clear readings from Shivans on the other end pertaining to the location of GTVA forces. That's why it sent out the signal to kill without coordination evidenced by the Shivan's lack of co-ordination after the Lucifer was killed!
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So the Hive mind was able to tell each and every ship to do something, and yet unable to know what they were doing? How could it contact every ship without knowing that sort of basic information?
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The Shivan attacks in FS1 came from all directions, not just Ross 128. Including in distant systems such as Ikeya (IIRC a command brief or techroom entry mentions speculation the Shivans used uncharted unstable nodes); they obviously did not come solely from Ross 128, or they would have quickly found Delta Serpentis and then Sol, instead there was a substantial front coming in from the right side of the node map.
Perhaps they ALL came in via R128 and then used unstable nodes from that system to get to Ikeya and other right side systms?
Their behaviour indicated nothing of the sort. If the shivans were indeed spreading outwards they would have seized GTVA space the first time they were there. There was no one to stop them after the ancients were gone after all.
They never detected the GTVA until they used the nodes heavily. After the Ancients left, the Shivans ran off to kill the Ancients elsewhere, and left what was to become GTVA space neglected.
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So the Hive mind was able to tell each and every ship to do something, and yet unable to know what they were doing? How could it contact every ship without knowing that sort of basic information?
They were only able to achieve one-way communication. The hive transmitter is far stronger than an individual Ship's transmitter.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
That is the reason why they were UNCOORDINATED!!! The Hive mind sent the signal that basically said "kill everyone" so that's what they did. That was why they didn't go bonkers, they were still recieving transmissions from the Main Hive but the Main Hive wasent getting clear readings from Shivans on the other end pertaining to the location of GTVA forces. That's why it sent out the signal to kill without coordination evidenced by the Shivan's lack of co-ordination after the Lucifer was killed!
That's still absolute nonsense. If the only transmission the Hive mind sent was kill everyone then each individual ship would have flown off and tried to kill things on their own with no planning.
The fact that there was planning indicates that there was some form of intelligence within GTVA space controlling the shivans actions. The shivans still fought with the GTVA. They still jumped in in waves and showed an understanding of tactics. It was more as if their best generals had been killed than as if they were simply zombies carrying out simple orders.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
They were only able to achieve one-way communication. The hive transmitter is far stronger than an individual Ship's transmitter.
You're missing the basic point. If the Shivans in GTVA space can't contact the hive mind how can the hive mind know where the enemy ships are for them to attack?
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Perhaps they had an emergency leader? He couldent lead as well as the hive mind but he could keep the remaining forces from losing it entirley.
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You're missing the basic point. If the Shivans in GTVA space can't contact the hive mind how can the hive mind know where the enemy ships are for them to attack?
Emergency leader. Shivans can implant stuff in themselves, right? A chosen few Shivans are implanted with a leadership gene which allows them to function as a weak hive mind. Not very effective, but it can co-ordinate basic attacks on a small scale.
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So there is a leadership caste, then.
NB: actually the point was; if the Shivan fleet can't contact the hive mind, then how in hell does the hive-mind even know who it can contact, let alone where those ships are to transmit to, and what to tell them to attack.
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Maybe but you do realise that this new explaination works just as well without the hive mind at all? I.e the shivans were commanded from the Lucifer where their leadership caste was mostly based.
When they were killed an emergency leader from one of the other capships took over.
There is now no evidence for your theory which contradicts the evidence for mine. Can you now see why everyone is so annoyed at you for stating your opinion as if they were the only possible answer?
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Sorry. I meant it as my opinion. I didn't mean for it to be taken that way. There are many possible answers. I was just trying to validate mine as one of them.
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You might want to post a few more, in my opinion's and I personally think that's then.
If you'd done that I doubt I would have argued with you much. MindGames states that the Shivans are a group mind.
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If all of the GTVA's destroyers, corvettes and installations were annihilated then I think the GTVA would behave a little differently as well.
IMO being incapable of co-ordinated attacks is no evidence of a Hive Mind. There could have been a leadership struggle between the Shivans, after all with no Lucifer to Rule and All destroyers destroyed anyone could do what they liked.
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That's a possibility although we've never seen Shivans fighting themselves so most likely it would be in the form of each capship taking it's own support ships and trying to prove that it's own way of fighting the enemy was the best.
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Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.
In my opinion, I dont think Shivans could get involved in a power struggle, as they probably are incapable of thinking independently and are not selfish (if you want an example, look at Capella). Without the Hive Mind's control, they must simply look elsewhere for a leader. Perhaps in a Shivan designated to be a leader in a time of crisis (when hive mind is lost)? However, i think that this leader would have no power when normally under the Hive Mind. Under normal circumstances he would be just another Shivan.
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The Tech Room gives the impression that, without the Lucifer, the Shivans were uncoordinated and started to act...well, crazily. But Silent Threat seems to say otherwise, particularly in "Hellfire".
What happened, then, would seem to be equivalent to what happens to a human force when their command, control, and communications center is blown to Kingdom Come. There's confusion, people get bad information, seperate units can't coordinate, nobody knows what anyone else is doing. There's a tendancy to feel lost and alone, to retreat, scatter. Everything pretty much falls apart. Eventually someone reestablishes control, gets in touch with everybody, and things start working again...if you aren't destroyed before then.
When the Lucifer went kablooie, the Shivans lost their primary C3 center. All of the above happened, compounded by the GTA and PVN going on the offensive and adding even more confusion to the situation. Eventually (a week, two weeks?) the secondary Shivan commanders, whoever they might be, reestablished control and got the fleet together again. (Hence "Hellfire".) But by that time it was too late. The GTA and PVN had already done too much damage to the Shivans, and they no longer had the firepower left to win.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Tech Room gives the impression that, without the Lucifer, the Shivans were uncoordinated and started to act...well, crazily. But Silent Threat seems to say otherwise, particularly in "Hellfire".
What happened, then, would seem to be equivalent to what happens to a human force when their command, control, and communications center is blown to Kingdom Come. There's confusion, people get bad information, seperate units can't coordinate, nobody knows what anyone else is doing. There's a tendancy to feel lost and alone, to retreat, scatter. Everything pretty much falls apart. Eventually someone reestablishes control, gets in touch with everybody, and things start working again...if you aren't destroyed before then.
When the Lucifer went kablooie, the Shivans lost their primary C3 center. All of the above happened, compounded by the GTA and PVN going on the offensive and adding even more confusion to the situation. Eventually (a week, two weeks?) the secondary Shivan commanders, whoever they might be, reestablished control and got the fleet together again. (Hence "Hellfire".) But by that time it was too late. The GTA and PVN had already done too much damage to the Shivans, and they no longer had the firepower left to win.
It's possible the techroom description descrives their overall military strategy rather than individual units or combat groups, although I've not played Silent Threat so I don't know how organised the Shivans were there.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
When the Lucifer went kablooie, the Shivans lost their primary C3 center. All of the above happened, compounded by the GTA and PVN going on the offensive and adding even more confusion to the situation.
You've also got to add in the fact that the Shivans probably didn't have any contingency plans for what to do if the Lucifer got killed. It was invulnerable after all. Why bother to plan for its destruction.
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Originally posted by karajorma
You've also got to add in the fact that the Shivans probably didn't have any contingency plans for what to do if the Lucifer got killed. It was invulnerable after all. Why bother to plan for its destruction.
Either that or
"Call fleet of really big ships and find a hole to hide in for 32 years until they arrive"
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Tech Room gives the impression that, without the Lucifer, the Shivans were uncoordinated and started to act...well, crazily. But Silent Threat seems to say otherwise, particularly in "Hellfire".
And Silent Threat is made out of Fan-made missions, so I guess sticking 100% to canon wasn't a priority. And I doubt [V] could have caught every mistake even if they were testing carefully. The more coordinated than expected shivans in ST can mearly be oversight.
I trust Fs2 techroom and it states the shivans were REALLY disorganized and acted strangely..
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The campaign isn't fan-made.
Although FS2 should take precedence anyways; same source, but newer.
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No fleet is invulnerable, even the simplest fleet command knows this. I mean the shievens must have fought better races than the GTA and PVN so must know they could be beaten if not completely wiped out.
It would seem to suggest that the Lucifer was simply their command and controle ship witha all the intel and overall data on the oposing forces. Being important info not every ship would have this. And with the lucifers destruction all this intel and cordinated knowladge disapears thuis leading to local but un co-ordinated attacks as the scattered forces only know the general staratergy and do not have the detailed general info and stratergy for the whole fight.
Just as today ships captains are informed on a need to know bassis if the main C&C was taken down each captain would have his mission but only know the outlines of the grand stratergy and an intel or other key info on the enemy not specific to his mission.
This leads me to think maybe there are two or more SV classes maybe a worker/fighter and then command and so on with the Lucifer just being a comand ship. Thinking about it there is no reall evidence for a hive mind. as we see no variation in the Sv's themselves. In almosta all insect Hives each cast is destinct and different, how ever we never see high intelligence SV's or any other sub categories, even though we do meat sevearl destinct areas of their effort. Ie command, fighter, worker etc.
sorry to ramble
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The campaign isn't fan-made.
I think he's talking about the single missions.
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I have been with Freespace since the beginning and since my therory hasn't been mentioned, here it comes.
In the ancient's monologes it is mentioned that the destroyers did not come until they went into subspace. The ancients killed lots of civilations, but I believe non of them had access to subspace technologie and that's why they were so easy to kill.
Now the ancients found the shivans and I believe the ancients also attacked the shivans. From the story I would say the ancients won a few victories...but then the shivans came up with a superweapon, aka new technologie that wasn't neccessarily far superior to the ancients, just the ancients had no defends against it.
This superweapon was the Lucifer class destroyer. And here comes why.
Looking at the Lucifer class instead of the other destroyer classes you can easily see that it has a lot of reactors, compared to it's size. It also has this super-shield and the shivan super laser. I beleive the Lucifer is equivalent to a fast attack craft whose sole purpose is attack. Similar to a Los Angeles class submarine. It's a Hunter-Killer, designed to obliterate warships. And that's where the ancients failed, I think they could easily wipe out the shivans fleet, until those Lucifer class warships with the impenetrable shield came to the battlefield. The ancients had no solution to attacking them until it was too late.
Now in contrast the Santhanas class is not a Hunter-Killer. It's big bulky, slow moving, defensless from the back, no permanent shield, only a few reactors... It's more like a mulitpurpose station, who just seems as powerful as the Lucifer because it's soo big.
The point I want to make is, the role of the Lucifer is for a fast paced war, moving swiftly around and destroying well defended and high importance targets, like a submarine so to say, while the Santhanas are like a big station moving around doing several missions than just destruction.
Ok, giving this background here comes my take on the story line. Why do the smaller warships, aka cruisers and destroyers do not have beam weapons in FS1?
I think that the LF were the survivors of the fleet that destroyed the ancients but could not return to shivan controlled space or resupply themselves with energy. The reason for this is that the ancients simply turned off the Gamma Droconis Knossos like GTVA tried to do. Just that it worked for the ancients, they deigned it, maybe they also did something like collapsing the node after turning off the Knossos. That's why the LF could not return. Now from the monologes it is clear that the shivans did not get resources from planets or territories, aka not even the suns, so the LF literally was hanging out in GTVA space for 8000 years without getting new resources or energy, that's why they couldn't use beam weapons.
Now the all important questions, why were the Shivans attacking? Attacking the GTVA, ancients are gone...
Not to get territory, not for the resources, not to get slaves, or power, but for something far more important to them. They were defending themselves and no not before the mighty space fleet but before the side effect of what terrans and vasudans caused.
The shivans live or were born or at least have a close relationship with subspace. I think they are depending on it, might it be for communication, that whole hive thing, or resources, or something like a gravity field, whatever it is the shivans have a close relationship with subspace. And subspace travel is disrupting this. Basically subspace travel is destroying something important to them and they want to stop it. I think this is very clear in the game. The ancients could destroy civilisations, they could cause whatever mahem they did, without any attention from the shivans, but as soon as they constructed the knossos and travelled through subspace the war with the shivans started. Why? Because subspace travel causes problems, either to the universe or to the shivans directly.
I hate to give the following analogy, but think about StarTrek and the concept that all ships are only allowed to go a certain Warp speed or they cause, a rift in space, aka a black hole. This could be the whole reason for the shivans attacking. They let your civilation evolve in peace until you reach the technological level to travel subspace. Not to protect you, but because you do not cause damage until you reach this technological state. Then they come and wipe you out. In FS1 they went straight for Vasuda Prime and then stright for Sol, why? Not because there the most people were or because of the political center, but because from their the most subspace travels came. Those planets were the capitals, they were the powerbases, so those two systems caused the most damage to the subspace because there were so many ships.
Probably this is also the reason why the shivans started the first Great War. Because the terrans and vasudans travelled so much thourgh the jumpnodes in the T-V that the LF which lay more or less dorment without much energy for 8000 years, woke up and had to stop them.
Now in FS2 the shivans were different fromt he shivans in FS1 because the there was a 8000 year gab between the two forces. The important thing to remember is that the shivans behaved differently. In the first war they had to stop those terrans and vasudans from continuing to use jumpnodes, so since you got limited resources, you have to anniliate asap. In the second war, the shivans were first under attack, the GTVA went into the nebula, destroyed the gas miners, aka shivan civilians, and even went into their controlled space. So the shivans were under attack. Remember those communication stations, they could for all we know also have been civilian places, they were not even well defended. So detryoing those civilian installation and killing a number of shivans in their space showed them that this enemy is for real and powerful. Since they suffered losses, they prepared for a major campaign, and that's where those 80 Santhanas came into place. I think the 80 Santhanas were not send in for the purpose of whipping out the GTVA but to create a command outpost. Since the shivans get their energy and resources from a nebula, but not normal systems it was clear that the first step was to create a new nebula, and capella was the perfect location, with 3 jumpnodes into all directions. So I think the shivans were merely destroying capella to create a huge base to start attacks into the GTVA territory with more advanced ships aka Hunter-Killer ships like the Lucifer class ships with permanent shields.
Also I believe the shivans are very slow in advancing technology wise. They do not addept or change, but have their technology, and that's about it. So I do not think that the shivans in FS2 knew how small the GTVA really was but that they expected a major fight, like against the ancients, to finally stop them from using the jumpnodes.
Last point about the destruction of the Santhanas class ships during the supernova in capella. Who says those ships were not empty, remote controlled. The just activated the jump field and then evacuated the ships that stayed behind. Sacrificing a few empty ships for generating a nebula which brings them about unlimited resources for this major conflict sounds logical to me.
Ok, that's my take on it. I hope this opens the door for new discusions... ; )
ICE
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:welcome:
Exits are to your right and left, and flamethrowers are under your seat. Be careful, though, as they are sometimes filled with water, so bring your own Napalm or try to club someone with the non-working shotguns in the weapon closet. Also, be careful while wandering the ventilation shafts. If you see a large, five-limbed creature that looks really pissed, it’s probably Carl, give him your lunch and he'll hopefully go away. If you see a big desert creature its probably Raa, give him a fish and he might leave your head alone. In the event of an emergency, the n00bs will be the last into the escape pods, if there’s any room left. The Plasma rifles in the forward locker are released only under authorization of an Admin, [V] God, or hyperintelligent shade of the color blue. Oh, and whatever you do, don't mention the word Freespace followed by the number 3.
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Originally posted by KappaWing
I think he's talking about the single missions.
"Hellfire" is a main Silent Threat campaign mission. It introduces the Zeus.
In it, the Shivan cruiser group designated "Hellfire" is attempting to rejoin the main Shivan fleet, and you must stop them.
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Ah, my mistake.
Hmmmm... I smell canon contradiction!
In that case, we get to decide! ;)
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I dunno.... if you're fighting to regroup, then it usually means you're strategy is shot to ****. I haven't played the mission, natch.... but I'm assuming that a Shivan cruiser group is a pretty dangerous force if it's given an offensive task. But this one is desperately trying to get to 'safety'.....
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Get the port, none of the lame (Now) graphics, but you find out all of the Canoninity(sp?)
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That is absolute nonesens. Just Think of Hitler and his Stalingrad !
The soldiers obeied orders and got killed for doing so.
Then does that mean that the humans have a hive mind????
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'Fiercely loyal' and 'Hive Minded' are two completley seperate things. 'Fierclely loyal' people think independently, but serve a common cause. 'Hive Minded' means to have a collective intelligence. The Shivans are hive-minded. End of story.
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not to mention Hitler's Reign was a dictatorship
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Originally posted by KappaWing
'Fiercely loyal' and 'Hive Minded' are two completley seperate things. 'Fierclely loyal' people think independently, but serve a common cause. 'Hive Minded' means to have a collective intelligence. The Shivans are hive-minded. End of story.
Didn't I already show you once that this story could have another ending? Be very careful saying things like that.
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Yes, but it seemed that AlphaOne didn't read the first few pages of this thread when we were discussing this. The nature of the Shivans is still, of course, open to debate but i believe someone already stated that same argument earier.
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ok, I keep seeing Hive Minded, written as a fact. It isn't a fact. So all assumptions based on it are in fact paper thin. The Shivans could have acted differently after the destruction of the Lucifer for many many reasons. Hive minded is but one plausible theory, and i don't even find it to be very plausible.
If they were hive minded....
1. They would have a much better grasp of tactics, as each would know automatically what the other was about to do in any given situation, the tactics that they display are haphazard at best.
2. With the obvious technological advantage that they have over us, the fighters acting in true concert would be wiping the floor with our sorry asses.
3. There would be no need to bring Bosch aboard, as soon as the transmission was recieved all of the Shivans would have known about it. (this is obviously debatable, as were the reasons)
4. Any strategy designed by one individual is much easier to discern than a strategy designed by multiple individuals, at multiple levels of command. In a hive mind, one would have decided the strategy, and all would have been acting in concert. The fact that there as yet has been no discernible strategy or reason for what they do leads me to believe that there is something going on that we cannot see. The fact that they do not act in concert, but act instead as individuals leads me to believe that they are in fact individual in thought.
The point of this, is that while Hive Mind is an acceptable theory, it is not the only theory, so it is pure folly to speak of Hive Mind as if it were a fact, and to continue to base all assumptions on what is an unproven theory, especially one with a fairly weak position when you look beneath the surface of "wouldn't it be neat".
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Ace: I really like your theory, and i.. well i agree now (After being convinced) well to a certian degree. Command freaked out when finding shivans a second time. "OMG SHIVANS< **** ATTACK!"
I dont think the comm devices were.. civilians. Fs and Fs2 dose NOT give any evidence of civilians for the shivans, except maby the gass miners. But what do they use the gass for? Weapon fluid or.. food or what? If we knew that...
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This idea that Shivans have a special connection with subspace and whatnot...I think people are taking the line in FS1 about the Shivans focusing on controlling individual jump nodes too seriously. I think the idea is that the Vasudans and the Terrans had been fighting a war of conquest; they had been trying to take and hold planets. The Shivans, on the other hand, didn't care.
As for why the Shivans showed up, it could simply be that the Lucifer was woken up by the 'skirmish with the Vasudan patrol' mentioned in the FS1 intro. Some semi-mystical relationship with subspace isn't necessary; somebody could've just tripped the Lucifer's security system by running a missile into the ship. ;)
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I think they would have noticed a multikilometer long superdestroyer, even if it was powered down...
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well, it took us a while to notice the multikilometer asteroid base housing the Iceni which was powered up, and not very well disguised.
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Yeah, but the flashback images of the engagement in the opening sequence of Freespace show that it took place in open, empty space. Even though the Boadicea was not well-disguised, it was disguised and did have a place to hide.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
This idea that Shivans have a special connection with subspace and whatnot...I think people are taking the line in FS1 about the Shivans focusing on controlling individual jump nodes too seriously. I think the idea is that the Vasudans and the Terrans had been fighting a war of conquest; they had been trying to take and hold planets. The Shivans, on the other hand, didn't care.
As for why the Shivans showed up, it could simply be that the Lucifer was woken up by the 'skirmish with the Vasudan patrol' mentioned in the FS1 intro. Some semi-mystical relationship with subspace isn't necessary; somebody could've just tripped the Lucifer's security system by running a missile into the ship. ;)
IIRc the FSRef bible discusses the TV War as focusing on the physical control of subspace nodes.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Some semi-mystical relationship with subspace isn't necessary
yes, but they communicate through subspace via quantum pulses, right? and don't they feel subspace vibrations?
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
ok, I keep seeing Hive Minded, written as a fact. It isn't a fact. So all assumptions based on it are in fact paper thin. The Shivans could have acted differently after the destruction of the Lucifer for many many reasons. Hive minded is but one plausible theory, and i don't even find it to be very plausible.
If they were hive minded....
1. They would have a much better grasp of tactics, as each would know automatically what the other was about to do in any given situation, the tactics that they display are haphazard at best.
2. With the obvious technological advantage that they have over us, the fighters acting in true concert would be wiping the floor with our sorry asses.
3. There would be no need to bring Bosch aboard, as soon as the transmission was recieved all of the Shivans would have known about it. (this is obviously debatable, as were the reasons)
4. Any strategy designed by one individual is much easier to discern than a strategy designed by multiple individuals, at multiple levels of command. In a hive mind, one would have decided the strategy, and all would have been acting in concert. The fact that there as yet has been no discernible strategy or reason for what they do leads me to believe that there is something going on that we cannot see. The fact that they do not act in concert, but act instead as individuals leads me to believe that they are in fact individual in thought.
The point of this, is that while Hive Mind is an acceptable theory, it is not the only theory, so it is pure folly to speak of Hive Mind as if it were a fact, and to continue to base all assumptions on what is an unproven theory, especially one with a fairly weak position when you look beneath the surface of "wouldn't it be neat".
Ugh..what you are describing is a collective mind, not a hive mind.
A hive mind = drones take orders from one hiuger in the chainn, they never flinch, they don't think about them, they just DO those orders.
A hive mind places no importance on individul life, it focuses on numbers.
Sounds a lot like shivans, doesn't it?
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A hive mind doesn't entail a caste system; but rather a single collective consciousness where the organisms within can act in a unified purpose as if they were a single 'mind'.
I don't believe that, for example, ant colonies are technically hive minds; however, IIRC there is no 'order' system anyways, the ant colony behaviour is instinctual rather than controlled.
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Actually the term hive mind is commonly used to describe a collective mind.
For instance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hive_mind)
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Where do you think i got the definition from?
:D
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I was answering Trashman :) Didn't spot your answer :)
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Hive minds you say. Oki then.
I saw someone post that the hive mind was able to send orders to the LF but not get eny reading back. Puting aside the nonesense of a hive mind in my opinion, could someone explain to me why the hivemind could not receive eny info back.And why does a hivemind need comunications devices when from what we know (scifi) a hivemind travels instanteneus through space faster then enything else!
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Originally posted by AlphaOne
Hive minds you say. Oki then.
I saw someone post that the hive mind was able to send orders to the LF but not get eny reading back. Puting aside the nonesense of a hive mind in my opinion, could someone explain to me why the hivemind could not receive eny info back.And why does a hivemind need comunications devices when from what we know (scifi) a hivemind travels instanteneus through space faster then enything else!
Eh? That's total rubbish; there's absolutely nothing I've seen that even implies hivemind structures always have to have instaneous communications. Just look at worker ants; they only communicate locally within their colony (using pheromones), not globally across other colonies. Or even, to use a sci-fi example, Xenomorphs from the Alien series; no need for pan-galactic communications.
Sci-fi is, after all, science fiction.
The assumption made is that subspace allows instantaneous communication, and what is said is that for some reason the Shivans were transmitting (deliberately or by reflex), yet not able to receive, due to the loss of the Lucifer as a relay station or C&C. I don't buy it myself.
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Also even if the Xenomorphs/Ants/Bees/Whatever Hive mind example you want to bring up communicate instantaneously that's no reason to think the Shivans would do the same.
However I don't believe the hive mind theory because, IMO there is no reasonable evidence for it.
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could someone explain to me why the hivemind could not receive eny info back.And why does a hivemind need comunications devices when from what we know (scifi) a hivemind travels instanteneus through space faster then enything else!
Argh! Someone already said that same thing too! Please look at all the posts before posting yourself. For the sake of conviencence, I will repeat what I said earlier...
IMO, the hive mind communicates via transmitters of signals. The transmitter on the central hive is far more powerful than the transmitter on the Lucifer, as the power and clarity of the transmissions deteriorate with distance. The hive mind's transmitter was powerful enough to send transmissions to the Lucifer, but the Lucifer's transmitter was not powerful enough to send transmissions back. However, my earlier theory also mentioned a lower power hive aboard the Lucifer which controlled the Lucifer fleet. When the Lucifer was destroyed. I think the Shivans acted very unco-ordinated and turned individualistic.
AlphaOne, Please read the entire thread before your next post. :)
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you mean kind of like our own pilots do? They follow orders, unless attacked, then they fight back. Is this indicative of what we are referring to as a hive mind? All of our ai act the same. Are we hive minded? Now a separate ia table foir each race would be something interesting, because then we could play with it alot more. but on the other hand, why bother when we can add categories to the one we have.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Ugh..what you are describing is a collective mind, not a hive mind.
A hive mind = drones take orders from one hiuger in the chainn, they never flinch, they don't think about them, they just DO those orders.
A hive mind places no importance on individul life, it focuses on numbers.
Sounds a lot like shivans, doesn't it?
A 'hive mind', ie collective consciousness, would seem to focus less on numbers and more on outthinking its opponents and preserving all the life it can. Because every single organism would empathize with every other organism. Pain felt by one would be transmitted to the collective mind. Not to mention that the hive mind would have to be able to continue to grow with the organisms without losing efficiency.
Humans, with our ability to desensitize ourselves to the pain of others and our limited consciousness, seem far more likely to put more emphasis on outnumbering the enemy and winning by sheer attrition.
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No..
A collective mind is the one where communication is practicly instantanious between all of it's members - think b0rg (alltough the b0rg shows allso some hive mind as there are no idividuals really, so it might not be a good reference)
So even better, think humanity where everyones thoughts were shared.
The Hive Mind is a rigid, but efficient command structure - look at ants/bees.
The drones exist soley to obey the queen, to serve the hive and the most common tactic is superoirity by numbers.
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The Shivans are very well trained, and very brave and loyal. Now it sounds like they would exhibit exactly the behavior that we have seen in their fighters and bombers.
How do we know that the Shivans sacrificed themselves at Capella? How do we know that Shivan Command didn't sacrifice them? How do we know that the Capellan supernova wasn't a mistake that they made, and that it was not on purpose? Far too many assumptions on what we do not know. You can always think up reasons for the behavior of an unknown so that it fits your hypothesis. That's my point. If you want to ignore it and run off on rhetoric, and discuss the difference between a hive mind and a collective one, feel free. No where can you prove that either of those are correct, so i don't see why everyone wants to act as if it were a fact. It isn't a fact. I don't much care what you call it, hive or collective, it doesn't matter, because when this thread falls to the wayside, one thing will remain constant.....none of this is a fact from canon. People need to stop stating things as if it IS a fact.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
No..
A collective mind is the one where communication is practicly instantanious between all of it's members - think b0rg (alltough the b0rg shows allso some hive mind as there are no idividuals really, so it might not be a good reference)
So even better, think humanity where everyones thoughts were shared.
The Hive Mind is a rigid, but efficient command structure - look at ants/bees.
The drones exist soley to obey the queen, to serve the hive and the most common tactic is superoirity by numbers.
Hive mind is a collective consciousness; one mind, across many members (or so it appears) - check the wikipedia definition. There's no requirement for a command structure any more than your brain needs someone else to tell it what to do.
There's also no need for instaneous communication; if you consider ants as a hive mind, they don't need or use it (lay pheremone scents, which rely upon another ant encountering them, bees do dances which have to be observed and take time to perform).
And there's no evidence AFAIK that there is a central 'controller' of ant or other insect colonies (no overmind, i.e. no control by the queen), just instinctual behaviour. So the ants / bees / whatever don't 'serve' the queen, they just follow a behaviour program designed to support the queen, because this is necessary for survival of their species.
Also, I don't think turning 'individualistic' is evidence of a hive mind; it's evidence of the loss of a central tactical control centre and organisation, and possibly that the Shivans - whatever their mental setup - were used to operating in a highly regimented fleet.
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Also, I don't think turning 'individualistic' is evidence of a hive mind; it's evidence of the loss of a central tactical control centre and organisation, and possibly that the Shivans - whatever their mental setup - were used to operating in a highly regimented fleet.
:nod:
The Shivans seemed to have pretty good strategic coordination. It could easily be that the Shivans had their Command/Communications system entirely on board the Lucifer, since it was 'invulnerable' to other ships and therefore the least likely to get destroyed or disabled somehow.
When the Lucifer was lost, command fell to the Demons, but perhaps every capital ship had been given orders directly from the Lucifer. This gave the Shivan fleets incredible flexibility, but with the loss of the Lucifer, the Demons were forced to divvy up the ships themselves.
And of course we're dealing with an entirely separate race here. It may be that power would truly be a duty, rather than a privilege, for them and every ship of rank was reluctant to take command.
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Or the GTVA had already taken out their reserve C&C....... :D (took out the Eva, didn't they? I think that travelled with the Lucy in Playing Judas(?))
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Hive mind is a collective consciousness; one mind, across many members (or so it appears) - check the wikipedia definition. There's no requirement for a command structure any more than your brain needs someone else to tell it what to do.
There's also no need for instaneous communication; if you consider ants as a hive mind, they don't need or use it (lay pheremone scents, which rely upon another ant encountering them, bees do dances which have to be observed and take time to perform).
And there's no evidence AFAIK that there is a central 'controller' of ant or other insect colonies (no overmind, i.e. no control by the queen), just instinctual behaviour. So the ants / bees / whatever don't 'serve' the queen, they just follow a behaviour program designed to support the queen, because this is necessary for survival of their species.
Also, I don't think turning 'individualistic' is evidence of a hive mind; it's evidence of the loss of a central tactical control centre and organisation, and possibly that the Shivans - whatever their mental setup - were used to operating in a highly regimented fleet.
I don't give a damn about thew wikipedia and the definition one of you wrote in. I accept only the real woirld definition.
And no, I didn't say anywhere that in the hive mind there is instantanius communication or they are all brain-controled by the queen.. Alltough there clearly is a command structure.. and ants/bees without their queen are lost..and the colonies perish
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Only because they can't reproduce. What aldo's pointing out is the real-world definition; what you're thinking of is not a "hive mind", it is a collective conscenseness. Which doesn't exist in the "real worl," therefore has no real-world definition. Hive minded, simply put, means supporting the leader caste above all else, even one's own life, instinctually rather than through some kind of conditioning.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Alltough there clearly is a command structure.. and ants/bees without their queen are lost..and the colonies perish
Actually that's a load of crap. If you do a genetic study on the bees in a colony you'll find that the queen is actually a brood mare simply used to churn out worker after worker. She's not at all in command of the hive in any sense at all.
In fact the workers are using her to make more of themselves. If the queen dies they feed royal jelly to another worker and make themselves another queen.
While we're at it Trashman you can argue all you like that you're right and the english language is wrong but the fact is that the term hive mind is commonly used to describe a collective conciousness whether you like it or not.
Any further arguments that you're correct are being redirected to null.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
I don't give a damn about thew wikipedia and the definition one of you wrote in. I accept only the real woirld definition.
And no, I didn't say anywhere that in the hive mind there is instantanius communication or they are all brain-controled by the queen.. Alltough there clearly is a command structure.. and ants/bees without their queen are lost..and the colonies perish
Command structure is a control structure. It denotes a caste - or parallel - structure where individuals or groups have a precedence. Either way, it means there is not a collective consciousness across the species, because if there were then there would be no need for an overseeing entity; the 'oversight' would be part of the thought processes of the entire collective consciousness.
And the wikipedia definition....well, put it this way. The wikipedia is an open source of information, edited and moderated by thousands of people; I think I'd consider its definition reliable.
I'll point out again that a hive mind is not an insect colony; a hive mind, as pointed out, is a single shared consciousness, one mind formed by many individual entities. That's why it's called a hive mind.
What TM is pointing out, is a hive controlled by an overmind (leader or leadership caste) of some sort. And in the case of insects, there is no need for control; it's purely instinctual behaviour. The ants serve the queen (etc for other insects), because if they did not then the colony would die out. Any insects or colonies which did not have this instinctual behaviour, would die out as a result of natural selection.
And if this intrinsic behaviour is built around a single reproductive female (IIRC ant females will fly out to found new colonies, at which point they shed their wings and become queens), then of course that instinct will fail when the queen dies. Particularly if there is not other reproductive female or male to keep up the colony population.
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Well before we go eny further I would just like to remember evryone that the shivans we see today are NOT repeat are NOT theyr natural form. They seem to be enhanced with a powerfull armour and weapon..remember....?
So that leaves but one question who or what made them this way because I doubt they would of evolved this way if not for somoene elses intervention. For that matter did the shivans ever evolve during the thousands of years they were out there...???
No they staied the same which at least in mi perspective is very very interesting!
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Originally posted by AlphaOne
Well before we go eny further I would just like to remember evryone that the shivans we see today are NOT repeat are NOT theyr natural form. They seem to be enhanced with a powerfull armour and weapon..remember....?
So that leaves but one question who or what made them this way because I doubt they would of evolved this way if not for somoene elses intervention. For that matter did the shivans ever evolve during the thousands of years they were out there...???
No they staied the same which at least in mi perspective is very very interesting!
They might be. :V: stated that the Shivans we see in Hallfight are the actual Shivans - not a robot or spacesuit - so it's not inconceiveable they simply altered themselves.
And humanity has stayed the same for thousands of years too; didn't mean we never evolved.
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I believe we had a discussion a long long time ago about that, something along the lines of Shivans being predators (through body design, not assumption) and that, if the carapace were strong enough, or, more importantly, the right material, it isn't completely outside the scope of reason that the plasma 'gun' is not some kind of mega 'sting', like a scorpions, only using plasma. Though I'd hate to see what they hunted that was still edible after being shot with that!
Edit : Heres a thought, Shivans have heads a little bit like a Spiders head, maybe Subspace is their 'Web' that they use to entrap foes ;)
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Well before we go eny further I would just like to remember evryone that the shivans we see today are NOT repeat are NOT theyr natural form. They seem to be enhanced with a powerfull armour and weapon..remember....?
So that leaves but one question who or what made them this way because I doubt they would of evolved this way if not for somoene elses intervention. For that matter did the shivans ever evolve during the thousands of years they were out there...???
It is very possible that the Shivans develped technology to enhance themselves. They could have found a way to channel their life energy into their cannon thingie, and could implant their other enhacements into their own bodies.
No they staied the same which at least in mi perspective is very very interesting!
Perhaps they stayed the same because instead of letting nature optimize them over time, they optimized themselves with implantations.
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perhaps they stayed the same from the point of ancients to the point of us, because iot has only been 8000 years, and if you think about it, we look very much the same as we did 8,000 years ago. In fact, we look enough the same that someone not of our race (human) would probably have trouble discerning the modern man from the 8000 year old one. Perhaps they haven't evolved since the time of the ancients, Perhaps they did but the evolution was so subtle that we as humans have not picked up on it.
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I don't think the enhancements mean that some sort of intervention caused it...it seems more likely to me that the Shivans did it themselves. It may simply be more suited for the tactics that the Shivans use, which seemed to involve a lot more physical attacks than humans.
The Shivans have pretty extreme strength, after all, and a hard carapace. It may be that for any Shivan-shivan warfare, something like the mounted plasma gun would be required to kill a Shivan at any sort of range. And for other races, rushing them and slicing them up with their glowing pincer-things may have worked. (It certainly did with humans - something like three Shivans took out four, five armed humans by rushing them and took only one casualty).
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I don't think the enhancements mean that some sort of intervention caused it...it seems more likely to me that the Shivans did it themselves. It may simply be more suited for the tactics that the Shivans use, which seemed to involve a lot more physical attacks than humans.
The Shivans have pretty extreme strength, after all, and a hard carapace. It may be that for any Shivan-shivan warfare, something like the mounted plasma gun would be required to kill a Shivan at any sort of range. And for other races, rushing them and slicing them up with their glowing pincer-things may have worked. (It certainly did with humans - something like three Shivans took out four, five armed humans by rushing them and took only one casualty).
Isn't it true by word of :v: that the Shivans we see are the real Shivans, not shivans in any suit?
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Isn't it true by word of :v: that the Shivans we see are the real Shivans, not shivans in any suit?
Yes, but that doesn't preclude the Shivans 'augmenting' themselves mechanically; think of it as an extreme version of having a hip replacement or pacemaker.
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I always thought that mabe where the Shivans evolved there was some sort of metal oxide in the air. Like when Trees "breathe" carbon dioxide and make it into carbon(Wood). As far as the plasma cannon goes I assumed that was just a part of the Shivans' evolution. i.e. they can harness their body energy to shoot plasma.
Come to think of it whatever happened to the Shivans from Hallfight? Also what happened to any survivors. (One was knocked out against a wall.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
I always thought that mabe where the Shivans evolved there was some sort of metal oxide in the air. Like when Trees "breathe" carbon dioxide and make it into carbon(Wood). As far as the plasma cannon goes I assumed that was just a part of the Shivans' evolution. i.e. they can harness their body energy to shoot plasma.
Possibly.... but I don't think you'd see technology just spontaneously evolving, even in a metal-rich body.
Originally posted by kietotheworld
Come to think of it whatever happened to the Shivans from Hallfight? Also what happened to any survivors. (One was knocked out against a wall.
I think some Shivans were captured by the GTI, so possibly a heavier team went in.... I'm pretty positive none of the initial boarding part would have survived, though - I think the guy chucked against the wall would have been pretty much pulverized by the impact, would he not?
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Broken ribs at least, more likely a broken back, possibly internal injuries...if somebody got to him within an hour or two he probably could have survived, though.
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It also depends how tough the armour they are wearing is. A well padded backplate could save his back, however, I doubt the battle ended with the Plasma cannon, no doubt the Shivans finished off any survivors.
Edit : Also, if you remember the Iceni incident, it appears GTVA sidearms have improved somewhat since then, the report from the boarding party suggests that the Shivans took at least fair casualities.
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Originally posted by Flipside
Edit : Also, if you remember the Iceni incident, it appears GTVA sidearms have improved somewhat since then, the report from the boarding party suggests that the Shivans took at least fair casualities.
Not necessarily (although you would expect some improvement due to time...); there were probably a lot more armed NTF peeps then, plus whatever automated defenses a ship has inside. And also human corridoors aren't built for shivans...... I'd imagine it'd be a tighter fit in many cases, compared to the Shivan transport.
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I doubt these ships have automated defenses or large marine complements: we see them get boarded and captured too many times for that.
At a casuality count among the thousands, there must have been a lot of dead Shivans (minimum a hundred? Maybe more?) for them to even get noticed.
Let's arbitrarily assign the Iceni a crew figure of 10,000. This is probably too high, but still. Of that at most five hundred would be marines; marines are essentially dead weight most of the time, so their numbers are normally not high in relation to overall crew. They don't have to be.
Casualities in the thousands would imply that most of those engaged in the fighting were not marines and probably did not have top-of-the line weaponry, probably not much more then sidearms. The Shivan in Hallfight that died (or was just wounded badly enough it fell over?) appeared to be staggering, but neither did it have obvious holes in its carapace, and it did not actually go down until it was directly hit by a grenade. Given a minimum figure of 100 dead Shivans, GTVA handheld weaponry would apparently be much better then the last time around.
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Is there any real evidence that the Shivans tried to exterminate the entire crew, though? From what I gather, Bosch and his top lieutenants were waiting for the Shivans. Then either the Shivans barged in, or they talked with Bosch, but end result was that the marines died, Bosch was taken, and a bunch of Shivans were left behind.
I think there was one transport that was leaving the Iceni that you could destroy...so maybe two, three transports full of Shivans?
Going by Bosch's predisposition towards meeting the Shivans, he might not've had guards with him at the time. However, I'd guess that the airlock would be the most guarded area of the ship, especially with Shivans docking. Past that area, though, they could probably wreak havok pretty much unmolested. When the guy on the bridge said that thousands were dead, Shivans too, he may have been exaggerating a little. But any Shivan deaths would be major events.
So, I don't think handheld weaponry would have to be a lot better - just the tactics. One guywith a grenade launcher can probably take out one Shivan; if marines started stocking up on those, kill ratio of shivans to humans would rapidly get better.
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Recall Bosch's monologue: he seemed to think the crew would be getting out too. The combat aboard the Iceni is difficult to explain in light of that, but it would make sense that the crew would be waiting by the airlock for the Shivans to come aboard.
A Vasudan marine gave the intial casuality estimate shortly after the rescue transport docked...I trust him slightly more then a panicked naval lieutenant, but draw your own conclusions.
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Plus the shivan in hallfight has no confirmation of dieing, it gets hit then falls off the bottom of the xcreen, for all we know it got back up and skittered across the chamber before delivering death.
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I still don't think killing the crew was the Shivans' purpose, though. :p
That would be easily accomplished by destroying the ship. Much better from a tactical/strategical viewpoint than fighting in unfamiliar territory in an incompatible(?) environment. This goes back to a previous discussion, but in Hallfight the marines were using their own air. Could be that the Shivans' air supply is different than humans', in which case they'd have to bring their own air along.
Or, they don't breathe, but would that really be biologically possible for something like a Shivan?
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Well, if you believe the super-secret animation, Shivans can jump around in space and slice open fighters, so who knows? :p
Seriously, though, the whole situation with Bosch's departure from the Iceni is, in my opinion, just about every bit as incomprehensible as the whole supernova issue. Obviously, Bosch and his command crew made it out of there, but did they go willingly or as prisoners? Bosch's final monologue seems to suggest that he was pretty confident of his standing with the Shivans, but the crewmember on the Iceni speaks of Bosch and the officers as being "taken." He could have been mistaken during the heat of the moment, though. As for the rest of the crew, was this a simple misunderstanding that led to a firefight, or did Bosch simply not have any regard for the lives of his crewmembers outside of his inner circle? Remember, he did call the members of the NTF "sheep;" however, it's unclear if he felt differently about the Iceni's rank and file, or how much the crew knew about ETAK. Makes for some interesting thinking.
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It's possible that the Shivans simply tricked Bosch to make him come along... and that trouble erupted when he saw they weren't going to take his crew; perhaps he even resisted, and the Shivans grew impatient.
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Possibly, but I don't see thew Shivans really caring too much about the opinion of one man, and I don't see Bosch under any illusion that he would be. If anything he hated his crew as 'sheep' and probably felt they deserved their fate as much as he deserved his, he made it plain that he felt what he was doing was for mankind, not for himself.
As far as weapons are concerned, remember that Hallfight took place when marines carried weapons designed to take down Vasudans and Terrans, 30 years later, no doubt, more anti-shivan weaponary would have been developed.
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Originally posted by Flipside
Possibly, but I don't see thew Shivans really caring too much about the opinion of one man, and I don't see Bosch under any illusion that he would be. If anything he hated his crew as 'sheep'
He did bother to communicate with them. And he regarded them as 'cattle' not sheep.
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Sheep = Stand around in field eating grass following each other around when nervous.
Cattle = Stand around in field eating grass following each other around when nervous.
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Cattle; safe in Aberdeen on a Friday night
Sheep; not safe in Aberdeen on a Friday night
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:lol:
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Originally posted by Flipside
:lol:
Siggied!
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What if Bosch died, trying to get his men to stop shooting at the shivans, before any 'peace' was made, in which allowed supposedly, time for bosch and other men to escape on the Xports. What if Bosch never made it, and his whole lifes plan foiled in on itself?
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I doubt we'll ever know, but that is considered, I believe, to be what happened to Bosch here on HLP. The Shivans were just curious. After all, Bosch could have been saying "Cheese tastes good" when he was talking with them for all he knows. They probably just said "Wtf? Well, this is interesting, let's investigate." But considering how he managed to get two transports to his ship, perhaps ETAK did work properly. But I hardly doubt we'll ever get a canon fact on what happened to him.
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If BOSCH was going to take such a risky move, it had to be 100% correct or atleast 88%, pritty near working right. They did capture shivans for sure and maby thats how they 'tested it' for bugs.
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The NTF did not capture Shivans, and they had no way of "debugging" ETAK in the middle of a nebula. Their first usage of ETAK was "crude," and their second probably wasn't much better.
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"And bag a few shivans in the process.." < i remember some briefing saying that. GTVA captured shivans, few, but some. Hallfight, showed their first contact, but they must have eventually sedated them and captured them. Hades rebellion stopped the research of shivans and their technology, but for a tiem they did, right?
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The GTI captured Shivans, the NTF did not, although they did recover some of the information that the GTI gathered.
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My theory, in conjunction with the Shivans being the Great Destroyers/Preservers... but first, put yourself in the Shivans' place. You think to yourself, "Why do we kill them?"
To paraphrase the guy who climbed Everest: "Because it is there."
It makes sense.. because they want to, you know? But eh... whatever. Only :v: has the answer...
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the shivans are subspace's antibodies.
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They're evil. They don't need a reason.
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By antibodies you mean killer-t cells?
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Hello,
I've just (re)finished DSF2 recently, and the cutscenes got me thinking about the storyline in fs2. I've read through this thread, and I think the general shift of the thread is about right: imo, Bosch is the key to understanding fs2's plot. All of Freespace 2 revolves around Bosch. Nearly all the cutscenes are about him, and all of the story is set in motion by Bosch and his actions, yet what happens to him remains largely unknown.
So, what do we know about Bosch?
1. He views the NTF as a means to an end. This is made quite clear in his monologues.
2. He is (relatively) well-educated. His monologues and the references that he makes show that he has some knowledge about primitive human civilisations/books.
3. The campaign implies that he has connections within the GTVA.
Thats about it, unfortunately. However, based upon these and the monologues, we can make a few educated guesses:
a. Bosch thinks that he knows something about the Shivans. Whatever it is, its something thats worth spending the majority of his life on. Also, whatever he thinks he knows, its also something that hes kept to himself.
b. Bosch has some knowledge about ancient technology.
Ok, enough groundwork. Heres my theory:
Somewhere in space, Bosch discovers something about the Shivans, something that totally blows his mind away. This tiny fact is the seed that grows in Boschs mind, and from this, he discovers an amazing amount of new information about the Shivans, either physically, or by reinterpreting existing data.
Whatever it was that he discovers, its something worth spending the majority of his life pursuing, something worth keeping secret, and something worth starting a genocidal war to cover for.
Anyway, He investigates and understands further, and, at length, discovers the Knossos device, and how to activate it. He knows that the Shivans will be on the other side, and he presumably knows how to talk to them (ETAK)... but theres a catch. The components he needs to reactivate the Knossos device and for his ETAK project are scattered throughout the galaxy, some in Terran worlds, some in Vasudan worlds. He has no chance in hell of getting them without the GTVA noticing, so he creates a distraction... he starts the NTF, tapping into the common hatred of the times.
The plan works with amazing success, and soon, he has an army. He carefully attacks worlds so that the GTVA have no idea what it is that he is doing, gets the necessary components, builds the ETAK device, and reactivates the portal. He goes through, at a huge cost in lives, and activates the ETAK. It is only now that he can finally find out if what he has learnt is true, if it is all worth it. He hails a Shivan ship, and they respond. They also don't attack him, which is important. This indicates that they now have some reason to keep him alive, which suggests that he knows/has something that they want, which in turn suggests that they know/have something that he wants. It is possible that they keep him alive out of curiosity, but I doubt it. It seems thier standard response to anything new is to blow it up.
Anyway, he prepares everything, and boards the shivan transport. As he is leaving, it occurs to him that the crew of the Iceni knew what it is that he did and could potentially do it at any time. The risk is too great... He requests that the Shivans kill his crew off. Something happens though, that stops the shivans (the portal reactivating when the GTVA went through, perhaps?) from finishing the job off.
Ok, I'm sleepy now, so I'll finish this off tomorrow. The rest of it is a brief discussion on the nature of language, and then some wild speculation (that is, more wild then this :)).
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:welcome:
Exits are to your right and left, and flamethrowers are under your seat. Be careful, though, as they are sometimes filled with water, so bring your own Napalm or try to club someone with the non-working shotguns in the weapon closet. Also, be careful while wandering the ventilation shafts. If you see a large, five-limbed creature that looks really pissed, it’s probably Carl, give him your lunch and he'll hopefully go away. If you see a big desert creature its probably Raa, give him a fish and he might leave your head alone. In the event of an emergency, the n00bs will be the last into the escape pods, if there’s any room left. The Plasma rifles in the forward locker are released only under authorization of an Admin, [V] God, or hyperintelligent shade of the color blue. Oh, and whatever you do, don't mention the word Freespace followed by the number 3.
Woah! Good start to your HLP "career"!
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Welcome aboard. I think pretty much everyone agrees with what you say up until when Bosch activates ETAK. After that it's debatable but the first half is pretty much what everyone thinks happened.
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Thanks guys.
Before I begin with wild speculations, I'd like to briefly discuss some very basic philosophy of language.
the ETAK project allowed one thing: The ability for Bosch to communicate with the Shivans. What it presumably did not contain, however, was knowledge on WHAT to transmit. Interpretation between languages is a very tricky business, even when there is a great deal of commonality between the two languages. I am reminded of the old scenario of an explorer meeting a tribe of primitive natives. To communicate with them, he had to start from scratch, by pointing at things and listening to what their words for those things were, and building it up from there. Once he had a basic knowledge of thier words, he could listen for common human emotions (e.g. loving food, hating predators), and very gradually, build up an understanding of the language. However, this buildup is based on experiementation, and if the tribe arent particularly friendly towards accidentally insulting thier god, for instance...
With this scenario in mind, what about the Shivans? We know that some shivans were captured in the Great War, but the GTVA never discovered that the Shivans could even talk, let alone figure out how to talk to them. And theres a good reason why: Presumably the shivans developed on worlds totally foreign to earth. How can we build the common understanding that needed to interpret between two languages, if the other group has nothing in common with us? It would most likely require an amazing amount of time, many live Shivan specimens who want to talk (and that indicates some form of truce with the Shivan empire), some way of communicating with them, and, most importantly, some degree of commonality between Shivans and Terrans/Vasudans*.
Yet, Bosch seemed to develop a fairly good grasp of the Shivan language... ETAK would after all, be useless to Bosch if all he knew was how to send the equivalent of "I slept with your mom!!!!" Rather, he had a message that he was pretty sure that the Shivans would want to hear, and the Shivans did seem interested in hearing it.
Of course, this assumes that Volition was aware of some of the more basic philosophy behind language. Anyway, thats it from me, tune in next time for my wild speculation.
*Speaking of the Vasudans, a Terran/Vasudan interpretation service is available, but we don't know how long it was worked on by both the Terran and Vasudan people. Heh, I can't remember if the cause of the war was ever stated in Freespace 1, but it could even be because of a major stuff-up by the Terran translation team ;).
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Hi. If anyones confused, I accidently registered with the wrong nickname... so I asked a mod to change it back to what I usually use.
Anyway...I'm going to assume that Volition did NOT know about the basic philosophy of language outlined above, for the time being. If you don't like reading long posts, skip this one. Instead, read my next post. Seriously. This one is a pretty boring, conventional theory. The next one is the truly interesting one. (Of course, I'd prefer that you read both, as the second one draws on whats said here, but anyway..)
On with the boring theory. Whatever Bosch's mission was, he succeeded, at least partially. His final monologue can only be described as optimistic... He describes his attempt at communication as being "crude and rudimentary" which to my mind seems to be like "Bosch want speak to leader", rather than pure gibberish, and he talks about plans to scuttle the Iceni, and go somewhere with the Shivans. This, to me, seems like successful two way communication, not the shivans merely being curious.
After all, lets face facts here. The Shivans have not shown the least bit of curiosity towards terrans or vasudans. They have made no effort whatsoever to learn anything about us, even when we developed shields in like 5 missions flat (iirc). They simply do not care about us. In fact, the only time during any campaign when the shivans were not attacking Terrans and Vasudans was with the Iceni (and note, just the Iceni. Other NTF ships were apparently fair game). Why then, were the Shivans so chummy with Bosch in the nebula?
And what the hell did he have to gain by going there? Bosch is no fool. He must have known that he would never come back... I've just reread the monologues and I've changed my mind on one thing. Originally, I thought that Bosch was doing everything for personal gain, but now, I think that, more than anything else, he was doing it
for the sake of humanity.
Which leaves us with a new riddle. If what he knew could make such a difference, why not tell everyone, and get the GTVA's cooperation? Surely they would be just as interested in eliminating any future Shivan threat as he is. It wasnt for personal glory, as Bosch dryly notes, history will remember him as a butcher, which he seems to think is a bit unfair, but he doesnt care. No, I think that whatever Bosch discovered about the Shivans, it was something that he simply could not tell the GTVA, as it would be mocked at or discredited. So then, the question remains, what was it?
Before I attempt to answer that, lets consider the turn of events:
- Bosch opens the Knossos portal (or, at least, capitalises on an open Knossos portal).
- A few scattered Shivan vessels emerge from the portal, which the GTVA mop up.
- Bosch successfully communicates with the Shivans, and plans are made for him to leave with them.
- The GTVA goes inside the Knossos portal to investigate, and encounted basic shivan resistance, nothing special.
- The Shivans take Bosch, and kill most of the crew of the Iceni.
- A Sathanas class juggernaut is sighted, heading towards gamma draconis.
- Plans are made for the Collossus to engage the Sathanas
- The Sathanas is engaged successfully by the Collossus
- More juggernauts are sighted headed towards gamma draconis
- These juggernauts all converge at the Capella sun
- The Sathanas class juggernauts do something to the sun, causing it to go supernova
- Most of the juggernauts then jump out, but some stay, although they appear to be powered down.
Most people think that the two unexplained events are unrelated (ETAK and supernova), yet like I said above, the Knossos portal was stable, which I'm guessing happens over a long time, which indicates that the shivans could have invaded at any time (although ther terrans still needed to activate the portal again). I am going to state that whatever Bosch told the shivans specifically involved something about the sun at Capella. There is no other reason why they converged on that sun, and that sun alone (if any old sun would do, why not the one at Gamma Draconis?), and why they converged there only after Bosch met up with them.
In turn, this indicates that Bosch learnt something about the shivans in his research, something that would make them see (blowing up the) the Capella sun as being 'valuable'. Petrarch, in the end movie, speculates that they were cosmic nomads, searching for a way home, and the energy from the supernova gave them the ability to do so (although how the hell he knows this is beyond me...). If it was that simple, why not do it somewhere else, or to be precise, sometime else, like say in the 8000 years they've been stuck in our galaxy?
If we assume Petrarchs Words are the voice of Volition, (i.e. he's right)... For this to work, Bosch must have been the one who told them how to do it, otherwise they would have done it already, and gone back home. Maybe a certain type of star is required, which Capella is, but few others are, and Bosch supplied the info needed by the Shivans to go about doing it. Of course, if this is all for the sake of the Shivans going home, Bosch's talk of an alliance doesnt really make much sense, apart form perhaps an alliance inasmuch that they don't kill us off anymore.
Bosch's disdain of the Vasudans isnt really explained in this either (although he views the NTF as cattle, he does explicitly state that humanities fate does not reside with the Vasudans). Of course, this could just be a plain old-fashioned dislike of Vasudans that Bosch always had.
If, on the other hand, we consider the possilibilty that Petrarch was guessing, then a whole new range of possiblities unfold. Honestly, I'm tired right now, and there is a much more interesting theory I want to go through, so if I ever get around to writing a "Bosch manifesto" (paying homage to the Shivan manifesto here), this'll be expanded in there.
Finally, This does leave the question of the events of the Iceni. Why was there a battle? Why did the crew think that Bosch was taken? Consider this. The Iceni was of the NTF. Somehow, I doubt that thier recruitment drive went something along the lines of "Vasudans suck! Oh, and our leader reckons he can talk to Shivans". Also, remember the SOC operation within the NTF? No-one had a clue about what Bosch was working on. This leads me to suggest that the crew had -no- idea about what was going on, for the most part. I'm guessing that when the Shivans did board, the bulk of the crew freaked out something fierce. Maybe they were reluctant to go with Bosch, or thought that Bosch was under some form of mind control, or something. Maybe then, Bosch boarded the transports, and the shivans began 'scuttling' the Iceni by killing everyone on it, only to be repelled, or, more likely, disrupted by something, maybe the presence of GTVA ships in the area.
Or maybe the crew knew everything, but refused to board the shuttle, to which the shivans reacted with violence, and the crew reacted with further violence. Bosch eventually managed to stop the shivans and leave, but not before there were heavy casulties.
Anyway, this is about it for me, except for (most likely) my final post on the matter, which is the actual completely wild speculation.
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Finally, the wacky theory.
So, what did Bosch see that was different to those experienced researchers before him? Well, the monologues of the ancients call the shivans "the destroyers... the revenge of an angry cosmos". What if Bosch took this literally, and saw the Shivans _as_weapons? Superficially, this theory makes a great deal of sense. The shivans are extremely resistant to heat and cold, which is very useful for designing ships that utilise beams, and for fighting in space. They have very hard bodies, with weapons embedded in them, and have ships capable of tremendous destruction. They are also fearless fighters.
So, Bosch saw the shivans as constructed weapons. Indeed, this fits in with thier displayed intelligence levels. The last thing you want in a weapon is too much intelligence, but some intelligence is also necessary in order for it to function correctly. An easy way to do this is have a collective intelligence going - No unit has enough intelligence to be dangerous, but as a whole, there is sufficient intelligence to wage war. Incidentally, This also explains thier relatively stagnant technological development. From just before the great war to just after the second great war, the terrans had gone from being hopelessly outclassed to just about on par, in terms of technological development, and the behaviour of the shivans after the Lucifer was destroyed (Perhaps if thier, uh, node for getting commands from the collective intelligence vanishes, then they are forced to use thier own limited intelligence, hence their "erratic" [I'm reading this as strategically stupid] behaviour).
Of course, making the shivans out as weapons raises two questions.
1) Who made them...
2) And for what purpose?
Since both are linked, I'll answer them together. What we know is that they appeared after the Ancients had pretty much conquered thier known galaxy, and that they did not appear in force... rather, they sort of appeared in one system, beat the ancients, and spread from there. Then, the shivan fleet began systematically destroying system after system (and by destroying, its implied something like Vasuda Prime), until they destroyed the Ancients completely, paving the way for the Terrans and the Vasudans. Then, along came the Terrans and the Vasudans. This time, the Shivans did something differently. Rather than systematically destroy them (which they were more than capable of doing), they went straight for Vasuda Prime, torched that planet, and made a beeline for earth. Seems kinda odd, doesn't it?
My theory is quite simple, actually. The shivans are weapons, made by entities who either exist in subspace, or are ...sensitive to it. Maybe whenever an intra-system subspace jump is made, (i.e. not in the inter-system corridors), subspace gets "torn", and enough tearing results in the very fabric of the space-time continuum being ripped to shreds. Speaking of space-time, an interesting conjecture here is that subspace also contains the capability of time travel (as space and time are linked, after all). These entities are far enough removed from both the ancients and humanity (either in terms of space, or time), that it is easier to create a self-replicating weapon and send it to eliminate the disruptions, then to come themselves and eliminate it.
Ok, there is actually a bit of data in the game that "proves" the Shivan-subspace disturbance link. Look at when and how the Shivans attacked us. In any wartime, subspace jumps are going to be at thier peak (as forces are constantly moving around, seeking an advantage). It as at this time that the Lucifer fleet attacks, oddly not systematically, but going for the capital planets... I think that this is because the level of our subspace disturbance wasnt enough to be a "nuisance" (maybe this means that the Shivans use a different sort of battle plan?).Fast forward to humanity after the great war. Here, the shivans leave us well alone. Odd that. If they were so hell-bent on our destruction in this period, I'm sure they would have found some random unstable node and used it, which seems to indicate that they had no reason to, or did not want to (although this seems like circumstantial evidence, to say the least). Maybe we were below the threshold of Subspace use for being annihilated, again.
Now, the reason why I mentioned language earlier is that in order for Bosch to have communicated with the Shivans, there MUST be some commonality, indicating that the Shivans were of a Terran, Vasudan, Ancient, or other known species creation. If subspace allows space travel, then Shivans being of Terran design is a certain possibilty. However, I've been doing some thinking on this, and I am going to reject it. Theres just too many inconsistencies (the grandfather paradox, for one) in this thinking. The only way out of the inconsistencies is to view time as static -> The Terrans HAD to make the shivans and send them back in time to kill off the Ancients and let the Terrans prosper. However, theres very little in Freespace, or Freespace2 to support this, and when I say very little, I mean nothing else. I think its much easier to say that Volition were unaware of the philosophy of language.
Anyway, if Bosch saw the Shivans as weapons, maybe he surmised the reason why they came to be created (subspace disturbions). Maybe it is because of this that Bosch knew that conflict with the Shivans was inevitable. This is all well and good, but Bosch must have learnt two other things as well somehow: How and what to communicate with the Shivans in order to get them to take him to thier creators. Once he is with thier creators, Bosch presumably thought that he could get them to stop thier Shivan forces, or teach him (and greater humanity) the secrets of how to use subspace properly.
Finally, I'd like to reject Petrarchs theory in the ending, at least partially. If they used a supernova to get home, why not do it at another system? Why Capella, Perhaps he is right in saying they used the supernova to get home (perhaps the destruction of a star leads to a destabilisation of subspace, such that ordinarily impossible modes of transport become possible. Maybe, instead, the Shivans simply had no reason to return home, prior to meeting Bosch.
There are so many things I've left unanswered, and unexplored here ( Shivans using subspace, Differing technological capabilites of the Lucifer fleet and the Shivan armada, Comm Nodes, and the Ship of Fools just to name a few), but frankly, I've already written a lot about this, and I honestly doubt anyone here is going to read it. Maybe in a few weeks or months, I'll get my act together, and create the Bosch manifesto (in tribute to the Shivan manifesto), which explores everything in much greater detail.
What I would like more then anything else for now is for people to pick holes in my theory.
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Shivans often use intra-system jumps, if intra system jumps were so bad then they wouldn't have been created with this ability, they would have developed light speed travel or something like that.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Shivans often use intra-system jumps, if intra system jumps were so bad then they wouldn't have been created with this ability, they would have developed light speed travel or something like that.
Maybe the system they use is similar, but not quite the same... i.e. maybe a subspace jump thats not as disruptive. Of course, if its a small change thats required, this does beg the question of why the 'fix' wasn't dropped off at Terran/Vasudan/Ancient HQ. Problem solved, and no DSFI or II :).
The problem with this reasoning as well is that presumably Bosch knew that this was the key to an 'alliance' with the Shivans... so that it was something obvious enough for him to figure out, yet elusive enough for them not to have figured out. :wtf: Or maybe, the Shivan creators simply did not consider Terrans, Vasudans or Ancients to be capable of implementing the change. This is not so far-fetched... Consider the prevalent attitude of people towards tribal natives in the 18th and 19th century regarding education.
Maybe, the Shivans even tried to be friendly towards the Ancients in the absolute beginning, but as is stated in the ancient monologues, they were total bastards towards foreign races, and tried attacking them, causing the Shivans to retalitate, and deviate from thier original intent... *Shrug*
An alternate answer is that the system they use is totally different, but uses the same medium (kinda like the difference between a propellor engine and a rocket).
Thanks for the reply =)