Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: stithe2000 on February 14, 2005, 11:07:18 pm
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Coming soon....
(http://members.cox.net/raurther/CentauriVSEmpire.jpg)
Universes Chaos Mission 1....
A taste before the campaign......
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i wanna see shivans vs shadows :D
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Not to be pessimistic, but I forsee balance problems in your future...
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Yep... (working on balance chart... when done will release to public... still in works!) However, for now enjoy the chaos!! As for the Shivan vs the Shadows... You never know!! Stay tuned!!! Or you can even help in the chaos!
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what about borg vs goa'uld, that would be halarious to listen to on the comm :D
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Heh I would like Stargate+Startrek+Terminator+Freespace 2=Chaos
Goa'uld would take over cybernetic bodies, humans wearing military uniforms piloting Galaxy vessels bombarding the planets with flak, and soldiers transporting down with amunition based weapons, and tons of beams, mixed with shivans declaring war on the borg and all hell breaks loose. :drevil:
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Thats the spirit!!!
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Shivans vs. the Borg...now that would be something to see.
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Hey, i know that blue symbol!!Seems i´m not the only one using Jedi academy stuff!
:p
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Ah, random symbol #443 versus random symbol #1209 - truly the grudge match of the century.
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Actually it is jedi knight 2... :)
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I'll see if I can dig up some ancient screenshots: (from 1-2 years ago)
Borg Dominion and 8472?? No way!
http://img201.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img201&image=allianceofevil8kx.jpg
Not related but I found THUNDER's old model
(My texturing eck!)
http://img201.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img201&image=alientransport8rx.jpg
Look carefully there ar two Shadow battle crabs visible in this interstellar free for all!
http://img208.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img208&image=freeforall6tc.jpg
The Empire lays the smack down on Moon Base Alpha!
http://img159.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img159&image=planet17yf.jpg
Imperial shuttles ready to attack...
http://img159.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img159&image=impshty19bl.jpg
Borg staging area in the GTVA universe as they prepare to overrun all the galactic powers...
http://img159.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img159&image=borgdesign7dh.jpg
Cylon Borg alliance? Scary thought...
http://img218.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img218&image=screen597su.jpg
Some Alliance ships docked at the Atlantis station, the Warlock Carrier it at bottm of screen is partially visible.
http://img218.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img218&image=patrol34fv.jpg
Lastly Empire versus the Borg, 6 to 1 odds and they lost 2 SD's and killed the cube , the other 3 got moderate to heavy damage and only one was untouched,,, YAY!
http://img127.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img127&image=almosttoomuch7an.jpg
these were all universe experiments of the bygone era 2002-2003 (RIP) Ah the memories...
Sorry Stithe, got carried away! :D
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OK who thinks the Borg Cube could stand up to a Helios?
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Hehehehehe!!! Good ones Getter! We will find out when I formulate the charts, and build the missions! Care to help, or whatch the chaos??? lol :)
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A helios? Surely you're kidding?
Now a Meson bomb MIGHT be a temporary threat (until it regenerates) but then once it adapts you're done... Actually.explosives would not fall under adaption right? Nor projectile weapons. Just energy based weapons like phasers, disruptors, plasma..? Pure explosive PHYSICAL force would only have to contend with the strength of the shields (shoudl they be up) or the strength of the hull material..
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nuclear phucking weapons!
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hehehe!!sounds fun! lets nuke!! lol
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Not to be pessimistic, but I forsee balance problems in your future...
A single ISD would take out the entire B5verse. Including the First Ones.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Shivans vs. the Borg...now that would be something to see.
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your shi-"
*sound of LReds firing*
*BOOM*
Repeat a whole bunch of times.
Originally posted by Getter Robo G
A helios? Surely you're kidding?
Now a Meson bomb MIGHT be a temporary threat (until it regenerates) but then once it adapts you're done... Actually.explosives would not fall under adaption right? Nor projectile weapons. Just energy based weapons like phasers, disruptors, plasma..? Pure explosive PHYSICAL force would only have to contend with the strength of the shields (shoudl they be up) or the strength of the hull material..
A Tsunami would kill a Borg cube, guaranteed. Also, KE has little problem defeating Borg adaptation. Picard gunned down a whole horde of drones with a Thompson submachine gun. If the Federation can destroy a Borg cube, a single GTVA bomber or cap could do it dozens of times over. Come on, a Helios is only about as powerful as SEVERAL THOUSAND PHOTON TORPEDOES.
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Guess we are going to have to stay tuned, and wait for everything to play out once the balance chart is complete!
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A single ISD would take out the entire B5verse. Including the First Ones.
:lol:
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FS ships, comparing relative damage values (Helios is equivalent to more then 3000 megatons, easy), have insanely powerful weapons and equally insanely tough armor and shielding.
The ISD take out...no. Just no. It'd get its *** kicked by the first Sharlin that it ran into. Now, against a Nova, that would be a relatively fair fight. You have to account for how Minbari gravimetric shielding works: only physical impact is effective against them. Star Wars ships are almost exculsively armed with energy weapons.
Actually, now that I think about it, a Sharlin and a Demon would probably be a good matchup...not counting fightergroups. I can't remember how many fighters a Sharlin can carry off the top of my head.
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A sharlin can hold only 15 fighters... The fighter aspect is beaten by the demon, for it can carry bout 20 to 50 times more... However, that would also be an interesting match up!
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Originally posted by Nuke
what about borg vs goa'uld, that would be halarious to listen to on the comm :D
lmao!
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
The ISD take out...no. Just no. It'd get its *** kicked by the first Sharlin that it ran into. Now, against a Nova, that would be a relatively fair fight. You have to account for how Minbari gravimetric shielding works: only physical impact is effective against them. Star Wars ships are almost exculsively armed with energy weapons.
Just because it works on the weak plasma weapons of B5 EA doesn't mean it will stop a weapon that is 100,000 times more powerful than the nuke that destroyed a Sharlin in the Earth-Minbari War (the 200-gigaton turbolasers). Also, the Omega-X's used by Clarke's forces destroyed WhiteStars that not only had Minbari shielding but also had Vorlon adaptive armor! Also, turbolasers are NOT laser weapons. They are particle beams. This is the only way to rationalize TL behavior, which is completely inconsistent with that of real lasers. If it doesn't look, walk, or quack like a duck, it ain't a duck.
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
:lol:
Did you know that a single Star Destroyer can not only sterilize a planet like the Shadow Planet Killer, but melt its crust? Ever heard of Base Delta Zero? And the Death Star would be utterly invincible in B5. The first Death Star (never mind the second) was so tough that the Rebels' entire armada was useless and they had to use fighters to launch torpedoes into the exhaust ports, which were out of reach of Rebel capital-ship guns.
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...which was the dumbest plot device ever. Two little bomb thingies blow up that entire thing?
And did anyone else notice that the "exhaust vent" wasn't really exhausting anything? :D
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
...which was the dumbest plot device ever. Two little bomb thingies blow up that entire thing?
How else were they supposed to blow it up besides with an act of plot?
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Just because it works on the weak plasma weapons of B5 EA doesn't mean it will stop a weapon that is 100,000 times more powerful than the nuke that destroyed a Sharlin in the Earth-Minbari War (the 200-gigaton turbolasers). Also, the Omega-X's used by Clarke's forces destroyed WhiteStars that not only had Minbari shielding but also had Vorlon adaptive armor!.
Irrevelant. They are stated to reduce all damage to physical impact only. Shadow weaponry, on the other hand, is simply that uber.
As for the 200 gigatons, I've got news for you: orbital turbolaser bombardment is nowhere near destructive enough for that.
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Also, turbolasers are NOT laser weapons. They are particle beams. This is the only way to rationalize TL behavior, which is completely inconsistent with that of real lasers. If it doesn't look, walk, or quack like a duck, it ain't a duck.
So are EA X-Ray lasers. The Sharlin's shielding stops them cold.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
...
Did you know that a single Star Destroyer can not only sterilize a planet like the Shadow Planet Killer, but melt its crust? Ever heard of Base Delta Zero? And the Death Star would be utterly invincible in B5. The first Death Star (never mind the second) was so tough that the Rebels' entire armada was useless and they had to use fighters to launch torpedoes into the exhaust ports, which were out of reach of Rebel capital-ship guns.
See, now this is why I have issues with the way power is rated for Star Wars ships. There's no way one 1.8km ship running on fusion power could generate enough power to liquify over 5 quintillion cubic meters of rock (yes, that is 10^18). At least the death stars had the size of a small moon to generate enough power to destroy a planet, but even they were horridly overpowered for the power source they were actually using.
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More to the point, evidence available suggest they are simply not that powerful.
If it takes 45 minutes of bombardment by an SSD to severely damage an Alliance base, and even then they fail to get the critical facilites (hanger, weapons storage, powerplant) then there is no way in hell those shots are 200 gigatons.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Irrevelant. They are stated to reduce all damage to physical impact only. Shadow weaponry, on the other hand, is simply that uber.
First of all, that is a logical fallacy, the no limits fallacy. Second, prove that the Shadow weapon is a KE weapon and not an energy weapons. Third, the Omega-X destroyers had fusion beams as well as Shadow death rays. The general consensus among versus debaters is that the Minbari couldn't even defeat the Star Trek Federation, let alone the SW Empire.
As for the 200 gigatons, I've got news for you: orbital turbolaser bombardment is nowhere near destructive enough for that.
The SW2ICS is a higher canon than even the EU, subordinate only to the movies and novelizations, per Lucasfilm's canon policy. 200 gigatons is here to stay, period. To boot, Base Delta Zero (total destruction of all lifeforms and resources plus melting the crust and probably blasting away the atmosphere as well in a matter of hours) demands gigaton-range firepower. The only B5 ships that can tackle a Star Destroyer are the Shadow and Vorlon planet killers, and they don't have nearly as much durability as an ISD. B5 = pwnt.
For the record, the bare minimum energy required for a BDZ-style attack is around 50,000,000,000,000,000,000 megatons (that's 19 zeroes!).
So are EA X-Ray lasers. The Sharlin's shielding stops them cold
Uh, maybe the X-Ray lasers aren't powerful enough to overcome a Sharlin's shielding? You can destroy ANYTHING if you pump enough energy into it.
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Woolie, Check this out:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13735.0.html
Read Cannikin's posts. I laughed my ****ing ass off just reading half of his replies. Can you say 'pwned'?
over 100 200-800 Gigaton weapons with a refire rate of 1-7 seconds per shot, all house on a 1.8 km ship + the Power requirements for all those weapons systems = :wakka:
If I see Stardestroyer.net posted, I'll kill someone. They actually have the gall to say that an X-Wing blaster generates more energy than the entire U.S. in one shot.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
First of all, that is a logical fallacy, the no limits fallacy. Second, prove that the Shadow weapon is a KE weapon and not an energy weapons. Third, the Omega-X destroyers had fusion beams as well as Shadow death rays.
You don't understand how Shadow weaponry works. First, it can bypass shields, both electromagnetic (Star Wars) and gravimetric (Minbari). It generates fusion reactions in the target's hull. The beam in and of itself is actually harmless; it's the side effects. And that's fusion beams, which are Shadow weaponry. The Death Ray is even worse. It causes matter-antimatter reactions. In short, they turn your own hull into giant bomb. Hits from Shadow weaponry are pretty much nonsurvivable no matter your size, armor material, or armor thickness. The Shadows are capable of pwning just about anyone this side of God.
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The SW2ICS is a higher canon than even the EU, subordinate only to the movies and novelizations, per Lucasfilm's canon policy. 200 gigatons is here to stay, period. To boot, Base Delta Zero (total destruction of all lifeforms and resources plus melting the crust and probably blasting away the atmosphere as well in a matter of hours) demands gigaton-range firepower. The only B5 ships that can tackle a Star Destroyer are the Shadow and Vorlon planet killers, and they don't have nearly as much durability as an ISD. B5 = pwnt.
200 gigatons is utterly ridiculous. You use the excuse that turbolasers must be particle beams because they don't make sense any other way, yet when it comes right down to it they can't be those either because of...POWER REQUIREMENTS. Star Wars ships run on fusion power. This is about as canon as it gets. They can't generate that kind of power. It isn't physically possible. Therefore, 200 gigatons is clearly erronous. This is what happens when you make **** up and then give them a known power source whose rules are understood by modern physics: you end up with something that don't work.
I can think of at least seven of the novels that directly contradict you. That's without consulting my library.
And if I really want to be nasty, I can also point out that a single heavy turbolaser (reference: original version of A New Hope, scenes of the Death Star's gun galleries) is actually about the same size, if not smaller then, one of the chin guns of an AT-AT walker.
And there is no way in hell an AT-AT's chin guns are putting out anything remotely like 200 gigatons.
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MwahahahaHAHAHA!
We aren't really trying to make you look foolish, Woolie (at least, I'm not). It's just that those figures are all clearly ludicrous.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
MwahahahaHAHAHA!
We aren't really trying to make you look foolish, Woolie (at least, I'm not). It's just that those figures are all clearly ludicrous.
ICS is canon because Lucasfilm bloody well said so. This is the company that owns the Star Wars trademark, made all the movies, and is headed by the Big L himself, so they cannot be overriden.
Don't make me bring up the 2MT nukes again.
You don't understand how Shadow weaponry works. First, it can bypass shields, both electromagnetic (Star Wars) and gravimetric (Minbari). It generates fusion reactions in the target's hull. The beam in and of itself is actually harmless; it's the side effects. And that's fusion beams, which are Shadow weaponry. The Death Ray is even worse. It causes matter-antimatter reactions. In short, they turn your own hull into giant bomb. Hits from Shadow weaponry are pretty much nonsurvivable no matter your size, armor material, or armor thickness. The Shadows are capable of pwning just about anyone this side of God.
Don't be stupid. There is NO evidence to suggest that SW shields have anything to do with electromagnetism (in fact there are TWO types of SW shields--particle shields and ray shields) and no evidence that Shadow beams could bypass them. How, pray tell, does it even do this shield bypass? And what exacrly IS a gravimetric shield?
Second, the fusion beam appears to be exclusive to Minbari ships and the Omega-X. No Shadow ship has them. Thus, it doesn't have your ******ific Shadow Shield-B-Gone technology.
Third, the Shadow death ray could not possibly do that because such things are IMPOSSIBLE. Matter does NOT turn into antimatter. Besides, you'd have to pierce the shields for the thing to do anything. The weapon is also called a "molecular slicer", which suggests that it breaks the covalent and ionic bonds between atoms. This is reinforced by the fact that Shadow ships have repeatedly used the beams to slice up enemy ships like turkeys. Even if it can break the exotic types of bonds that are required to give SW hulls their insane strength, the ISD will probably kill it first because a Shadow ship won't even survive the first shot from a heavy turbolaser.
Fourth, most ships, especially the very metallic-looking EA and Imperial ships are made of metal, probably largely iron. Iron and other dense metals do NOT fuse well. You have to heat them into extremely hot plasma, and the resulting reaction will put out LESS energy than there is in the beam. The result would basically be no different from a high-powered laser, because something has to be extremely hot (millions of degrees C) to undergo nuclear fusion.
Finally, hits from Shadow ships are NOT "unsurvivable", as many B5 ships (especially WhiteStars and Vorlon ships) survive direct hits from Shadow ships. The fact that Shadow battle crabs are so destructive against Younger Races ships is because their foes' ships are not durable enough to withstand Shadow weaponry, and only WhiteStars and First One ships are strong enough to resist the weapons.
You have know been officially owned. Have a nice day.
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I have higher canon on my side. ("the novelizations" "the movies")
Consider yourself owned.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
I have higher canon on my side. ("the novelizations" "the movies")
Consider yourself owned.
If they do not DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the movies and novelizations, then the figures stand. In fact, the heavy turbolasers are only seen in action once (Battle of Endor), and are even then fired at enemy ships and not planets or asteroids. Even without 200GT turbolasers, the Empire still has three things B5 can't match.
1. Death Star I (blows up planets, which is something nothing in B5 has ever done, and could apparently fight an entire Rebel fleet, 200GT turbolasers and all, and win)
2. Death Star II (new and improved, and defeated only by the mother of all lucky breaks)
3. Eclipse battleship (The mini-superlaser can carry out a BDZ instantly, suggesting yields of at least 5e+19 megatons). The only thing that comes close is the VPK, and even that left survivors. The Eclipse kills everything.)
Brian Young's Turbolaser Commentaries (http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/)
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
ICS is canon because Lucasfilm bloody well said so. This is the company that owns the Star Wars trademark, made all the movies, and is headed by the Big L himself, so they cannot be overriden.
Don't make me bring up the 2MT nukes again.
ICS? What?
The Laws of Physics>Lucasfilm
It's the ULTIMATE canon source, overriding any others. If a Stardestroyer has 800 gigaton Turbolasers, then Star Wars doesn't have a scrap of claim to the title Science Fiction, or even Science Fantasy. It's PURE Fantasy (Elves and magic and demons and such).
And I ****ing TOLD You, if I saw SD.net here...
:snipe:
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
1. Death Star I (blows up planets, which is something nothing in B5 has ever done, and could apparently fight an entire Rebel fleet, 200GT turbolasers and all, and win)[/url]
Um. You mentioned the Vorlon Planet Killer later on in your post so What the F**K are you on about! :wtf:
Oh and as for a planet killer fighting an entire fleet and only losing due to someone getting very lucky. You have actually seen A Call to Arms haven't you?
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
ICS? What?
ICS = Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections. As official official literature with LucasFilm's full blessing, it stands only if something in it is DIRECTLY contradicted by novelizations or movies, which means that it overrides EU literature and fan speculation.
The Laws of Physics>Lucasfilm
Boo ****ing hoo. Suspension of disbelief, which is the ONLY system of vs. debating, does not cling 100% to laws of physics, because things in a film or official document may contradict the laws of physics.
[qupte]It's the ULTIMATE canon source, overriding any others.[/quote]
Wrong. On-screen events are. Anything in the super-canon (movies, novelizations, and radio plays), Lucasfilm literature, and EU literature can override laws of physics. The idea is to rationalize the events with the laws of physics as well as you can, but not at the expense of changing canon.
If a Stardestroyer has 800 gigaton Turbolasers, then Star Wars doesn't have a scrap of claim to the title Science Fiction, or even Science Fantasy. It's PURE Fantasy (Elves and magic and demons and such).
Cry me a river. Babylon 5 is called SF even though it has organic living ships that are more durable than the strongest metals, telepaths, super-humanoid aliens (a laughable idea), and Delenn magically changing her species. Star Trek is called SF even though it has gods (Q, Douwd, Apollo, etc.), guns that make people disappear (Whatever happened to the laws of thermodynamics?), and more of those goddamned human-in-makeup aliens. Our beloved FreeSpace is considered SF even though it has ships that fly like airplanes in outer space and lasers that don't act anything like lasers. Warhammer 40,000 is considered SF even though it has souls, sorcery, daemons that eat people's souls and possess machines, and viruses that kill all living beings no matter what they are and set air on fire (these are used to perform Exterminatus, the 40k equivalent of Base Delta Zero). Even Doom is considered SF, even though you not only fight demons but actually VISIT HELL! What you are describing is hard SF, which is pretty damn rare. The only one of those universes I mentioned that might not be considered SF is Warhammer 40,000 due to its blatant use of magic and monsters.
If we're going to play by these rules, then I will make these assertions about B5:
1. Shadow battle crabs don't have that fancy bioarmor, because the laws of physics dictate that bioarmor will not be as strong as Shadow armor and it won't magically adapt to weapons.
2. There are no telepaths, period.
3. There is no FTL, period.
4. Anything "gravimetric", as well as artificial gravity, don't exist because the laws of physics do not allow for an operating mechanism for these.
5. Sheridan either never died or never came back to life after he died the first time.
6. The Omega's rotating section provides a very unequal gravity field that, at floor level, is 10 times stronger than Earth gravity because of the size and speed of the hab module.
7. Hyperspace and anything related to it do not exist (bye-bye, First One power plants)
8. Inertial dampers do not exist in any form.
Um. You mentioned the Vorlon Planet Killer later on in your post so What the F**K are you on about!
The VPK is inferior to the SPK, ISD, Eclipse, or Death Star in planet-wrecking abiliity. It is faster than an SPK or ISD, but it does not perform a complete sterilization.
Survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly. We are in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground.
That's from the episode of Babylon 5 in which the VPK blasted a planet. Not only has the planet not been completely destroyed (unlike Alderaan, which was totally annihalated), but there are even survivors. In a Shadow PK, ISD, Eclipse, or DS attack, no one survives. The VPK would destroy an ISD with a hit from its main weapon, but since the weapon is designed to take out planets, which are really big and move in predictable patterns, it would likely be impossible for an ISD to be hit by the main weapon.
And I ****ing TOLD You, if I saw SD.net here...
The Turbolaser Commentaries are by Brian Young. MW only added some comments, which are clearly marked as added comments and are written in a different color to further distinguish them!
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The VPK is inferior to the SPK, ISD, Eclipse, or Death Star in planet-wrecking abiliity. It is faster than an SPK or ISD, but it does not perform a complete sterilization.
I'm not arguing which is better because basically I reckon the argument is retarded. I'm questioning your basic knowledge of the Babylon 5 universe for claiming that nothing in it has ever destroyed a planet when you then go on to mention the Vorlon Planet Killer which quite famously destroyed an entire planet. (Not glassed. Gone!).
Try watching the last few minutes of The Summoning before you stick your foot further in your mouth and try to tell me that the Vorlons never blew up a planet.
Especially as you're now backtracking and admitting the Shadows can do it.
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The Turbolaser Commentaries are by Brian Young. MW only added some comments, which are clearly marked as added comments and are written in a different color to further distinguish them!
Brian Who? The Football Player?
Oh, WAIT! Thats right. He's the guy who said this:
Since this estimate is conservative, an X-Wing's blaster cannons easily release more energy in 10 seconds than the entire United States produces in electrical power. This is especially impressive when one considers the number of nuclear power plants in operation in the United States.
ROFL
Like I give two ****s about "BRIAN YOUNG" and this bull****.
Tell you what, When I see an X-Wing reduce a landmass into a 300-km Crater in ten seconds, then I'll take his bull seriously. Otherwise, pass the salt.
Posted a while ago by someone named Cannikin:
quote:
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Taken from cannon sources in ESB it has been deduced that turbolasers have powers in the gigaton range. I can link you to stardestroyer.net or the technical commentairies by Dr. Saxton.
If you bother TO READ THE DAMNED WEBSITES you will see the obvious evidence to what I previously stated.
And if you're a cannon purist then you can continue to live in your litte world. The EU is official and is part of Star Wars. BTW, Dr. Saxton made extensive calculations in the Technical Commentaries and then applied them in the EPII ICS, which he wrote. So its not "pulled out of his ass" as you might say. Its fact.
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Wow, you must be reading something other than me. Apparently the ESB reference you're refering to is the "asteroid vaporization" example right? Well, Dr. Saxton puts down calculations which seem seem to be within the kiloton range unless my arithmetic is wrong.
The section that refers to the "gigaton" range apparently is under the section labeled "Novel Evidence" and refers to novels who put down stuff like "turning a planet to molten slag" which I seem not to recall from the movies. Somehow I doubt that the novelists did extensive calculations to come up with that.
So, let's see, the famous "durasteel" that seems to protect Star Destroyers so easily against hundred-gigaton blasts against it. Yet Qui-gon seems to be able to stick his lightsaber in it and melt through durasteel blast doors in an instant. So I assume that means he's injecting hundreds of teratons worth of energy per second right? He must be using the patented Exponentially Greater Than 100% Mass to Energy Efficiency Reactor(tm) in his lightsaber, which, must I remind you from your precious EU, is made up of parts you can by out of a local hardware shack and a crystal made in an Easy-Bake-Oven.
Oh and the famous all-powerful lasers when used against Yuuzhan Vong ships (also from EU) seem to only make little molten pecks in the flying turds. And the big hunks of plasma rock that the Vong chuck back (which can only possibly contain a few hundred terajoules, some hundred kilotons worth of thermal energy) seem to eat through shields (which are supposed to absorb hundreds of teratons) and the vaunted armor plating with ease.
And since when has EU been canon? I seem to remember about a dozen or so novels' stories being shot down at the slightest whim of George Lucas when the last two movies came out.
And finally let me show you some things:
See those? Now, the top picture is Baker, a puny and primative 20 kiloton nuke, but was enough to raise a column of water 2000ft in diameter and 6000ft (1.13 miles) high containing over 250 million gallons of water.
The Cannikin test (5MT), which I can't get a decent image of, was detonated a mile underground and caused a shockwave that registered 6.8 on the Richter Scale.
Now the second image, that's slightly more than 10 megatons, which was more than enough to vaporize the entire island, leaving a hole 1.2 miles in diameter as well as deep fry all marine life within dozens of miles, and create a core temperature that can reach well over 100 million C, 6-7 times hotter than the CORE of the Sun, which will turn any material in the universe into disociated atoms, no matter what kind of BS "durasteel" you can make up.
A 20MT nuke can release so much energy that mere exposure to the LIGHT (which is a by-product of the fireball heating air molecules hundreds of millions of degrees and releasing some of the subsequent energy of it as visible light) for a fraction of a second will cause a 3rd degree burn 40km from the fireball itself.
Now, 200 gigatons is 10,000 times more than that... No wait, you said that turbolasers are far more powerful than 200 gigatons, so lets say 800 gigatons. 40,000 of those.
In other words...
New Republic battling the Empire for control of Coruscant: "Oops, we shot off ONE stray turbolaser. We just utterly annihilated an area the size of Alaska (yes, I know they wouldn't know what Alaska is), and caused a very severe nuclear winter scenario that will render the planet uninhabitable for thousands of years. Sorry!"
and
quote:
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Originally posted by Bri_Dog
To those argueing the affects of a 200GT turbolaser blast:
The force of the weapon does not act like a bomb, it channels it's energy into one point. So the example of hitting Curscant with a stray shot and wiping out part of the city the size of Alaska is wrong
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You know, I was hoping you would say that misconception. First of all the energy of a nuke propogates from a very small area. The energy released is almost entirely thermal energy (the rest being high energy radiation like gamma rays), similar to what a laser would do.
Now if anything, a turbolaser with the power of 200GT would do MORE damage than a 200GT nuke, because ALL of the energy would be converted to thermal energy. Oh wait, 200GT is the puny transport guns right? So, 800GT.
Just to illustrate how this works:
A nuke releases an unimaginable amount of thermal energy. This heats up the air immediately surrounding the release. This obviously heats the air up to hundreds of millions of degrees, turning all of it into plasma. This effect is seen as the "fireball." This ball expands incredibly rapidly. The air outside the fireball is also heated and expands at an insane rate, producing the subsequent shockwave and blast (overpressure front), which does by far the most damage.
Now, turbolaser (providing a conveniant 800GT output of energy) hitting the ground would be a disaster beyond human imagination. First of all, while burning through the atmosphere, it would heat up the air to billions of degrees (comparable to a supernova) would cause a sudden expansion of the air so rapid that first of all, it would create a sound shock that's basically thunder (caused by the air being heated up to 10,000 degrees by lightning) x 1,000,000, shattering virtually all non-flexible material for hundreds of miles. Then the wind would be so strong that you wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Imperial Palace fly by.
Next, after it hits the ground the rock on the surface would immediately expand into a plasma fireball, like a nuke, because if the footage is to be believed in Star Wars, the energy is absorbed very rapidly, so it would end up vaporizing everything anywhere close to it.
But most of all, the worst damage would occur from where the turbolaser bores into the ground. The rock is also heated to billions of degrees and expands at insane rates. But this is a solid material, rather than a gaseous substance, so the result is FAR more catastrophic. The expanding and superheated plasma expands and utterly shatters the surrounding rock. This would create both gigantic cracks bursting through the crust of the planet shooting out ultra high-speed, billion degree plasma throughout the area. Then after that, a huge seismic shockwave such that humans have never imagined occuring would propogate under the surface. This shockwave, being relatively shallow beneath the surface would create even more shattering of the crust (think taking a sandbox, and doing a whip motion). And since the wave moves through a solid material, it is transfered very far and quickly, ripping apart all foundations and structures, as well as natural landmarks (mountains etc.) for hundreds if not thousands of miles. Oh and I almost forgot that the shockwave would also cause any tension in the rocks to be released causing even MORE earthquakes.
And that's from ONE shot.
quote:
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Thats why Courssucant and almost every other planet has something called planetary shielding , it prevents such a disaster. And starships with massive 200 GT weapons have something called sensors and targeting systems. They prevent any stray shots from ever hitting planet in the first place.
And who ever said the insides of the Trader Federation freighter were made of Durasteel? Only the outer hull is made of it.
And we clearly see an example of SW capship acceleration when the Imperial Fleet comes out of hiding from behind the far side of Endor and cuts off the rebel fleet. This flet, made entirely of Star Destroyers, came so fast that rebel ships only detected them once they had already been cut off. And don't say that the fleet hyperspaced there cause the DS had gravity wells online and the mass shadow of Endor would prevent the fleet from jumping from once side of the moon to the other and the Emperor clearly states that the fleet went to the far side of the Endor. It takes a hell of alot of acceleration to wrap around a huge moon in less than ten seconds!
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Next, as I was saying, no matter WHAT durasteel is, it WILL be vaporized. Not only would all materials in the universe be disociated into plasma, but even the EU would verify that as well. Take the book Dark Apprentice for proof (a book that incidentally refers to the Star Destroyer "planet slagging"). In the end, Admiral Daala's SD's got vaporized in a fraction of a second by the supernova. However, at the distance they are from the star, the temperature of the expanding shockwave has cooled to a mere few million, or even down to the hundreds of thousands of degrees. The surface area of the back of a fleeing SD is quite small so the total energy absorbed is most likely FAR less than the energy in ONE turbolaser shot (remember, a "primitive" 10MT nuke could form a fireball 3 miles in diameter, 3 times larger than a SD on its long side, inside which everything was vaporized). But of course turbolasers act on an exceeding small area (1-2 meters in diameter) yet the amazing shields and "durasteel" shrug them off like stinging flies.
So, in otherwords, if durasteel and shields were so amazingly powerful, the Imperials inside should've just sat on the bridge with sunglasses and a cool glass of lemonade during the supernova laughing at Kyp Durron's pitiful attempts to blow them up.
As for the whole 3500G's thing, see my above comments about inertia. Besides, even if there WAS such a mysterious material as to render inertia a moot point, the people INSIDE still have inertia and so are you gonna make them swallow that special material as a daily part of their diet? Otherwise SPLAT! Oh and whenever the people are punched in a fist fight, they also splatter into a gooey mass on the walls (as well as the puncher himself because of Newton's laws... oh wait, I forget, Newtonian laws don't apply). And of course as I pointed out above, if inertia is virtually 0, then the slightest touch should've blown the ships away (space dust, solar wind, a frustrated stormtrooper beating on the walls because he was just demoted, etc.)
Oh and if they can accelerate to that high, why don't they "fly around in circles singing Can't Touch This." Obviously the enemy turrets can't possibly track you going at 16,000kph (which only takes half a second to reach accelerating at 3500G's) which would let you circle around the width of a SD about 2-3 times a second. See how slow turrets turn in ANH? Some of them are even human manned. That'll be quite a whiplash trying to keep up with em. But the people in the spinning ship could circle it so that one side's turrets always face the SD blasting away. But you see in RotJ, the Neb. B. Frigate going at a lazy pace along side the SD going at no more than 10kph...
[Starshiptroopers]
Would you like to know more?
[/Starshiptroopers]
Because I feel he sums up why much of these SW figures are a load of crap.
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Originally posted by karajorma
I'm not arguing which is better because basically I reckon the argument is retarded. I'm questioning your basic knowledge of the Babylon 5 universe for claiming that nothing in it has ever destroyed a planet when you then go on to mention the Vorlon Planet Killer which quite famously destroyed an entire planet. (Not glassed. Gone!)
Then why, pray tell, did Ivanova have shuttles rescue "survivors' on the "ground". "Gone" is a very subjective and vague term and could refer to the civilization and cities on the planet. On the other hand, a green beam of death blowing up a planet before your very eyes is NOT vague at all.
Especially as you're now backtracking and admitting the Shadows can do it
Are you blind? I NEVER said that the Shadows could destroy a planet. The Shadows can kill all life on a planet, but they cannot destroy it.
This is what happens when an SPK strikes a planet:
(http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Daltron7.jpg)
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Woolly. You're only managing to make yourself look like an idiot. In The Summoning Ivanova clearly states that a planet with a shadow base on it is gone. Not glassed, Not wiped clean of most of the life. Gone.
I did tell you exactly where to look to avoid making a fool of yourself. Next time maybe you'll listen.
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Then why, pray tell, did Ivanova have shuttles rescue "survivors' on the "ground". "Gone" is a very subjective and vague term and could refer to the civilization and cities on the planet. On the other hand, a green beam of death blowing up a planet before your very eyes is NOT vague at all.
Did you ever think that the VPK might have a power setting? You know. Like setting 1 lightly toasts a planet, setting two kills everyone and setting 3 destroys the entire planet?
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Are you blind? I NEVER said that the Shadows could destroy a planet. The Shadows can kill all life on a planet, but they cannot destroy it.
This is what happens when an SPK strikes a planet:
(http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Daltron7.jpg)
Okay. That's my bad. You're right. We've never seen the Shadows destroy a planet (although that doesn't mean that they can't. The planet killer in The Long Night might not have used all of it's missiles).
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Originally posted by karajorma
Woolly. You're only managing to make yourself look like an idiot. In The Summoning Ivanova clearly states that a planet with a shadow base on it is gone. Not glassed, Not wiped clean of most of the life. Gone.
As I said, "gone" is a subjective term. Watching a planet being blown up by a moon-sized beam cannon is not a subjective experience.
Did you ever think that the VPK might have a power setting? You know. Like setting 1 lightly toasts a planet, setting two kills everyone and setting 3 destroys the entire planet?
Unlikely. The Vorlons and Shadows so hated each other that they would go to any lengths--ANY lengths to erase one another from the galaxy. Anyone under Shadow influence were considered the Bad Guys.
Okay. That's my bad. You're right. We've never seen the Shadows destroy a planet (although that doesn't mean that they can't. The planet killer in The Long Night might not have used all of it's missiles).
Baseless assumption. Unless we actually see a planet destroyed, we cannot assume the planet killers can actually destroy planets as well as devastate/sterilize them. On the other hand, a Base Delta Zero or Eclipse attack is clearly described as a zero-survivor event. A BDZ attack is described as sufficient to melt a planet's surface so that only a "deep planet shelter" would have even a chance of survival (note the word "chance"--there are no guarantees that the DPS will survive, especially if a TL hits directly overhead). The Eclipse is said to actually "crack the crust" of a planet and "sear continents" off the planet's surface.
Note that in the EU, there are five (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/BaseDeltaZero.html) instances of a Base Delta Zero occurring.
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I just have to laugh because of the retardedness of this entire argument keeps making itself apparent. I quite frankly don't give a damn what Lucas or his cronies consider 'canon' for the Star Wars universe, because as has clearly been illustrated many times over, his grasp on what's reasonable is about as firm as that of your average mentally retarded worm. So if he sanctions some random figure that's 8 orders of magnitude beyond what's possible then so be it, the point is moot for inter-universe discussions (why you'd need one in the first place is still a bit of a mystery, I'll admit).
Oh, and to generate enough energy for one 200 gigaton blast, assuming pure matter-to-harnessable-energy conversion, you'd need to convert a whopping 9.3 metric tons of matter. Now account for the fact that nuclear fusion only is 0.7% efficient in that regard, and you get that you'd need to fuse 1300+ metric tons of hydrogen just to accumulate that amount of energy with fusion. Now I'm not taking into account the fact that a single star destroyer has 200 or more of these things, nor their fire rate; that is for 1 shot. So it's quite simply not possible, no matter how much your canon wants to insist that it is.
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Oh boy...some common ground has to be found by which to compare these universes. I can think of nothing else but laws of physics. But if cannon ca novveride them, then you're in trouble.
I can just make up a SF with a hand-helm minigun weapon and each shot has the power of a supernova. And since it's cannon you can't contradict it no matter how redicolous it is? The same with bio ships, teleportation, telephaty, universal communicators, god, races with uber-powers and other crap like that.
See the problem here?
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Oh boy...some common ground has to be found by which to compare these universes. I can think of nothing else but laws of physics. But if cannon ca novveride them, then you're in trouble.
I can just make up a SF with a hand-helm minigun weapon and each shot has the power of a supernova. And since it's cannon you can't contradict it no matter how redicolous it is? The same with bio ships, teleportation, telephaty, universal communicators, god, races with uber-powers and other crap like that.
See the problem here?
Canonity doesn't override the Laws of Physics. That's just some BS Woolie shot out in place of a decent argument. (no offense)
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Woolly.
1) I couldn't give a flying f**k what Star Wars ships can do. I think the whole B5 vs Star Wars thing is retarded (The campaign isn't BTW since it sets its own baseline. Just the arguing on the thread). I got into this thread because you claimed that nothing in B5 could destroy a planet. So desist in your attempts to pursuade me that SW ships are better because all comments along those lines are going straight to null.
2) For f**ks sake. Watch the episode before you make foolish comments. So far despite my warning you proceeded to put both your feet in your mouth and then wiggle your legs up to the knees in there. I'm starting to worry that you're going to completely disappear up yourself if you continue getting things wrong. :p
Here's the dialog from that episode
Ivanova : The shadow base was located on a planet called Larcotta seven. It's not there any more
Lenier : The base?
Lyta : No. The planet. They destroyed...an entire planet.
I suppose you're going to argue with me that that's also subjective. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by TrashMan
Oh boy...some common ground has to be found by which to compare these universes. I can think of nothing else but laws of physics.
Quite frankly I think the only consideration in this mod is to make sure it's fun to play.
Balance all the ships so that each universe is roughly equal and tell anyone who argues about canon to f**k off because the universes ever meeting isn't canon either.,
Screw physics.
Screw canon.
This mod is all about fun not pleasing fanbois! ;)
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We need a timewarp smily.
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Originally posted by StratComm
I just have to laugh because of the retardedness of this entire argument keeps making itself apparent. I quite frankly don't give a damn what Lucas or his cronies consider 'canon' for the Star Wars universe, because as has clearly been illustrated many times over, his grasp on what's reasonable is about as firm as your average mentally retarded worm. So if he sanctions some random figure that's 8 orders of magnitude beyond what's possible then so be it, the point is moot for inter-universe discussions (why you'd need one in the first place is still a bit of a mystery, I'll admit).
If Kiki the Chimpanzee wrote a science fiction story called "Space Apes", he would have complete control over what is canon in the Space Apes universe, no matter how stupid his policies are. The words of Lucas, Roddenberry, JMS, DaveB and their subordinates are pretty much the Word of God for Star Wars, Star Trek, B5, and FreeSpace. Besides, Star Wars is not the only universe that does insane stuff like 200GT turbolasers. A few examples:
-In Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man carries out Exterminatus (planetary sterilization) by releasing "virus bombs" that kill every living being on the planet and set the entire atmosphere on fire.
-In the Culture novels, the Gridfire projector weapon has virtually infinite firepower. One Gridfire attack was calced at 1E+55 joules (1 followed by 55 zeroes).
-In FreeSpace, the Lucifer partially sterilizes Vasuda Prime (although there are a few survivors), and bombers and capital ships sling around gigaton-level firepower. Then there's Capella, which not only was made to go supernova during main sequence by the Sathanas fleet (an impossibility since the core has not become iron), but was about 10 times too small to go supernova (assuming that it was the same size as the sun).
-In Andromeda, fighters cause supernovas of Sol-like main-sequence stars with so-called "nova bombs".
-In Star Trek, the Doomsday Machine, a ship made of "solid neutronium" (an oxymoron, since neutronium is liquid), is armed with a planet-destroying death-ray weapon.
-The missiles of the B5 Shadow planet killer are estimated at at least 50 gigatons each due to the total sterilization of the target world.
Except for Exterminatus, none of these situations draw many complaints, even though many are far more outlandish than Base Delta Zero and 200-gigaton turbolasers (*cough* gridfire *cough).
Oh, and to generate enough energy for one 200 gigaton blast, assuming pure matter-to-harnessable-energy conversion, you'd need to convert a whopping 9.3 metric tons of matter. Now account for the fact that nuclear fusion only is 0.7% efficient in that regard, and you get that you'd need to fuse 1300+ metric tons of hydrogen just to accumulate that amount of energy with fusion. Now I'm not taking into account the fact that a single star destroyer has 200 or more of these things, nor their fire rate; that is for 1 shot. So it's quite simply not possible, no matter how much your canon wants to insist that it is. [/B]
Star Wars is not real. It doesn't have to be possible in real life. If it happens, it happens. The Shadow PK pounded Daltron 7 with gigaton-level firepower, the Imperials pounded Dankayo with gigaton-level firepower, and the Death Star blew up Alderaan with enough energy to power the sun for several thousand years. Nothing you say can change that. By your logic, neither B5 nor SW has FTL travel because FTL travel cannot exist by the laws of physics, even though SW and B5 ships perform FTL travel many, many times.
Concession accepted.
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I've never even heard of Culture, but is sounds like just as much BS as what we're on about.
I have problems with all those (except those I don't understand).
And the excuse "They did it, why can't I?" doesn't work. It's NEVER an acceptable excuse.
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It is an acceptable excuse in fiction because it's goddamn FICTION. How many times do I have to ****ing tell you that Star Wars and B5 are NOT REAL?!?! They don't HAVE to be 100% realistic (FTL travel in and of itself is impossible in real life), because they're NOT REAL. Why don't you just stop watching and reading science fiction bcause ALL SF plays fast and loose with physics. Every time a sound is heard in space, a ship banks while turning in space, a raygun is fired, or a ship explodes in a brilliant fireball, laws of physics are broken.
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Great, now if you could just find the description of Science, you'd almost have a complete reply...
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By your standards, there have been almost no science fiction stories or games ever made. B5 in many ways is just as bad as Star Wars (planet killers, organic technology, planet killers, telepaths, etc.) and neither are anything approaching hard SF. If we are to accept your draconian guidelines, than there is no FTL, bioarmor, telepathy, grav-anything, inertial dampers, hyperspace, subspace, whateverspace, planet killers, beam cannons, blob cannons, or any of the other hallmarks of soft SF like B5 and SW.
By obsessing over realism, you have completely given up on anything approaching a debate.
[size=666]CONCESSION ACCEPTED![/size]
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This isn't spacebattles Woolly. No matter how much you think you're on the vs forum.
Oh. While we're at it be a man and admit you were wrong about the VPK.
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My argument isn't about star wars as star wars, it's about star wars = something in real science which is exactly what you're arguing (and is what is inherently being argued when real units are thrown around).
So no concession for you :p
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
-In Warhammer 40,000...
-In the Culture novels...
-In FreeSpace...
-In Andromeda...
-In Star Trek...
-The missiles of the B5 Shadow planet killer are estimated at at least 50 gigatons each due to the total sterilization of the target world.
Except for Exterminatus, none of these situations draw many complaints, even though many are far more outlandish than Base Delta Zero and 200-gigaton turbolasers (*cough* gridfire *cough).
First, none of the other serious contenders here try to actually canonically put actual units to their weapons. Nevermind that they don't claim fusion as the power source. But I'll humor you:
Warhammer40k: yeah, that one's crap. Virus setting the atmosphere on fire and all that. Then again, no one's ever claimed WH40k has tried to set itself against anything resembling reality.
Gridfire: haven't read that series, so I have no idea what the context is. It's not near as mainstream as SW, but I can't really contest how preposterous that one is. If your numbers are accurate, then I agree that it's a preposterous amount of energy. No argument. Of course, you didn't mention a power source so I can only assume it's something equally fantastic.
Freespace: I'm glad you brought this one up, actually. Both of the things you're using as extreme rely on extra physics that are defined by canon, not real technology like fusion. The Sathani did something to Capella through subspace, where normal laws of physics don't apply. We don't know what, but that's not the point. As for the lucifer, there's actually a good thread going about that right now in General Freespace, which I won't bring out here. But let's just say that Vasuda is still there and the damage wasn't even all that extreme on the planetary scale. Cities leveled, habitable landmass (on a desert planet, so not that much) destroyed, but that can be done easily with 13 hours of 20-megaton-level shots at a rate of 1-2 per minute. And any weapon using more than the megaton range uses a non-conventional warhead which could have a much higher yield than a fusion explosion, which is actually less efficient than a contained reaction.
Andromeda: again, we're not depending on power-generation as much as we are the ability to alter the internal dynamics of a star. Sci-fi, so I'll take it.
ST Doomsday machine: I'm going to ignore the armor bit, since what science knows as Neutronium can only exist within the gravetic compress of a neutron star. But the internal power source can again be whatever it wants (it sure isn't ever stated) so let it have a planet-vaporizing death ray for all I care. I'm not going to argue against scifi that has no context simply because there's no yardstick to compare it to.
B5 planet killer: with an anti-matter warhead of a metric ton or so, a 50 gigaton yeild is actually quite possible for a missile. Those missiles were huge too if memory serves. And we're still talking about one-shot deals here, not a repeating issue.
However, Star Wars occupies a unique position in that its creators have sanctioned preposterous levels of power without also providing a boundless energy source of some kind. Star Trek has its dylithium crystals and warp fields to explain where its power comes from, while B5 tries to limit its weapons to what it can reasonably get out of a power source. Star Wars, instead of using just a tad of restraint, gives weapons far more power than they are obviously using and then puts them under the power of a device that is well-understood (if not exploitable - we still know how much power we could get out, just not how to get it to work without putting more in) where it cannot possibly sustain that level of energy consumption. I don't care if star wars isn't real life, if you're going to tell me their ships use fusion, then make sure the systems running off of that reactor don't consume exponentially more power than a fusion reactor is ever going to put out.
Oh, and in every sci-fi involving FTL, it is done either via an alternate plane of existance (subspace/hyperspace) or by space-time manipulation (warp). Even star wars.
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However, Star Wars occupies a unique position in that its creators have sanctioned preposterous levels of power without also providing a boundless energy source of some kind. Star Trek has its dylithium crystals and warp fields to explain where its power comes from, while B5 tries to limit its weapons to what it can reasonably get out of a power source. Star Wars, instead of using just a tad of restraint, gives weapons far more power than they are obviously using and then puts them under the power of a device that is well-understood (if not exploitable - we still know how much power we could get out, just not how to get it to work without putting more in) where it cannot possibly sustain that level of energy consumption. I don't care if star wars isn't real life, if you're going to tell me their ships use fusion, then make sure the systems running off of that reactor don't consume exponentially more power than a fusion reactor is ever going to put out.
SW ships use "hypermatter" reactors. The operation and nature of these devicees are not discussed, but their capabilities (powering ISDs and Death Stars) is obvious.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Power/Power2.html
Oh, and in every sci-fi involving FTL, it is done either via an alternate plane of existance (subspace/hyperspace) or by space-time manipulation (warp). Even star wars.
The space-time manipulation reminds me of Futurama, where you go FTL by moving the universe around your ship instead of vice versa.
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~TimeWarp!
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V
Ah, now that's the Sci-fi BS that I'd expect. This is another reason why Star Wars presents a serious problem; it's canon keeps changing. The last time I checked, and as far as common knowledge goes, Star Wars uses fusion.
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Very well said, Stratcom.
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Since the first half of my post got eaten by the forum's state of non-synch, I'll finish my response by adding a response to what was edited in.
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The space-time manipulation reminds me of Futurama, where you go FTL by moving the universe around your ship instead of vice versa.
Actually space-time manipulation, such as that used by the Spacing Guild in Dune and is implied in Star Trek, is considered a viable possibility for FTL travel given non-existant technology and infinite power and resources. Collapsing the space in front while simultaneously expanding that behind has the same effect as moving through it, in theory without the constraints of c. And that's actual science.
We've got an actual link to StarDestroyer.net. Get him Jetmech ;)
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Originally posted by StratComm
We've got an actual link to StarDestroyer.net. Get him Jetmech ;)
What's wrong with it? He's only trying to explain Imperial power generators with the precious little information available.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
What's wrong with it? He's only trying to explain Imperial power generators with the [size=10]precious little information available[/size].
WHICH IS WHY THE 200 GIGATON VALUE IS COMPLETELY USELESS.
And StarDestroyer.net is self-reinforcing it's own bad numbers, and is biased by excessive fanboyism.
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Originally posted by StratComm
WHICH IS WHY THE 200 GIGATON VALUE IS COMPLETELY USELESS.
And StarDestroyer.net is self-reinforcing it's own bad numbers, and is biased by excessive fanboyism.
Sorry, 200 gigatons is based on Base Delta Zero, which definitely is not undefined. The effects and nature of the attack are well-known and not disputed by anyone who is half literate, as well as various EU figures. I just told you why the 200-gigaton figure exists a page ago, and you ignored it.
BDZ has been done several times in EU, and there is nothing in the movies, novelizations, or radio plays to say it's not possible. Because planets don't become lifeless lumps of molten rock by themselves, the attacking ships actually have to deliver enough firepower to do it, and that's a lot of energy. We don't know much about SW power generation technology, but we know quite a bit about how much firepower SW ships put out, so hypermatter has to be very energy-dense because energy is not produced by wishful thinking. It's like a nuke: you don't have to know how it works to see that it levels cities and turns islands into glass.
How many times do I have to flog this dead horse before you realize that it's even dead in the first place?
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Originally posted by StratComm
Gridfire: haven't read that series, so I have no idea what the context is. It's not near as mainstream as SW, but I can't really contest how preposterous that one is. If your numbers are accurate, then I agree that it's a preposterous amount of energy. No argument. Of course, you didn't mention a power source so I can only assume it's something equally fantastic.
If I remember correctly the culture use zero point energy for gridfire. That basically means that although the numbers are stupendous they are actually realistic (If you can get over the improbability of getting at ZPE in the first place :D )
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Wrong. The Grid is an infinite reservoir of energy that is somehow "between dimensions" that the Culture taps into whenever it wants obscene amounts of energy. Unlike ZPE, it produces virtually infinite energy, and you don't have to give it back within the planck time.
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Originally posted by StratComm
We've got an actual link to StarDestroyer.net. Get him Jetmech ;)
RAAAR!
(http://www.hostedimage.com/usr/1576/svm0001.jpeg)
EU?
In any case, it still can't be 200 GT. Whatever books you got that from, erase them from your mind. It's stupid beyond belief, and the effects witnessed in the movies utterly debunk this.
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The size of the explosions on ships is not a valid gauge, because you don't know what kind of shields and armor those ships have. What happens to planets and asteroids is valid because you know what they're made of and structured like. Unless you know exactly what durasteel is and exactly how shields work you cannot use ship-to-ship battles except for RELATIVE power and durability (i.e. the ISD is X percent more powerful than a Mon Calimari cruiser).
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It doesn't matter WTF Durasteel is, if it gets hit by a 800 GT shot, it's ****ing GONE.
Next, as I was saying, no matter WHAT durasteel is, it WILL be vaporized. Not only would all materials in the universe be disociated into plasma, but even the EU would verify that as well. Take the book Dark Apprentice for proof (a book that incidentally refers to the Star Destroyer "planet slagging"). In the end, Admiral Daala's SD's got vaporized in a fraction of a second by the supernova. However, at the distance they are from the star, the temperature of the expanding shockwave has cooled to a mere few million, or even down to the hundreds of thousands of degrees. The surface area of the back of a fleeing SD is quite small so the total energy absorbed is most likely FAR less than the energy in ONE turbolaser shot (remember, a "primitive" 10MT nuke could form a fireball 3 miles in diameter, 3 times larger than a SD on its long side, inside which everything was vaporized). But of course turbolasers act on an exceeding small area (1-2 meters in diameter) yet the amazing shields and "durasteel" shrug them off like stinging flies.
So, in otherwords, if durasteel and shields were so amazingly powerful, the Imperials inside should've just sat on the bridge with sunglasses and a cool glass of lemonade during the supernova laughing at Kyp Durron's pitiful attempts to blow them up.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Wrong. The Grid is an infinite reservoir of energy that is somehow "between dimensions" that the Culture taps into whenever it wants obscene amounts of energy. Unlike ZPE, it produces virtually infinite energy, and you don't have to give it back within the planck time.
Pity ZPE actually had a real science basis at least.
And I'm still waiting for you to admit you're wrong. I've done it twice on this thread at least so far. :D
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Well three posts got in there and Woolie changed his again.
For the record, no, you don't. Asteroids vary wildly in structure and composition.
And for the love of god, the "SW > all" argument just doesn't work. SD.net has tried for years, and the arguments are still mind-numbingly retarded. It's canon contradicts very badly, and you can't rationalize it away by always choosing the case that supports your theory over the 10 others that don't. Let me put it this way. If a blaster was as powerful as it's supposed to be (lets use the autocannon things that Stormtroopers like to set up, since they are more powerful) then why don't the guys getting shot have their chests blown apart?
Oh, and in terms of canonness, I believe the Thrawn trilogy ranks pretty close to the films in terms of reputibility. In it there are a number of situations where the turbolasers on the Chimera delivering anything over a couple of kilotons would completely not work, since there's no resulting explosion as that kiloton is converted into thermal and kinetic energy.
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Hows about the Mykonians from Urban Assault vs. the Borg from Star Trek :devil:
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and also denounced this same type of argument when I asked on spacebattles.com for help to make the balance chart for the original mod based on power souce and different technologies to be faithful not to any one franchise BUT how much each type of weapon would realistically put out, or stop with shielding. That was the goal, NOT some BS about balancing. Let the chips fall where they may and only the strong would survive, or the most tactically adaptable.
However one argument I would like to contribute is this: That Rebels on the run build a shield generator for Hoth and frustrated an entire FLEET of star destroyers so much cause their 200-800 GT turrets are impotent "a planetary bombardment is impossible now" - weak ass imperial wussies...
Now these same imperials are forced to do a low tech physical landing to have a team destroy the mega powerful shield generator with a single shot from an At-At that gets in visual range???.
SW is about PLOT not science or technology (even more so than any other franchise). And I love all sci-fi equally, so much I have to be honest. Trek TRIES to be more credible but not by much, B5 is by far the most credible IMHO, not sure about Andromeda as I've only seen like 1/4 of it.
Lets go back a second to the Imperial invasion of Hoth... Ok multiple landing craft can get through the shield no problem (so it only blocks energy based weapons no matter that the fleet,or just ONE of their SD's, can slag the planet in minutes) but physical OBJECTS like ships can get through. Fine I'm an Imperial admiral , I order the evacuation of one large size ship and auto program it to crash INTO the shield generator. As shown the rebels ONLY have an ion cannon and that temporarily disabled the SD attacking the transports. But a falling SD doesn't matter, GRAVITY rules and no matter the impact of the cannon it will have MINIMAL effect on the falling SD's trajectory. Even a near miss will do enough damage to destory or disable the mighty shield generator.... Problem solved no loss of Imperial life at all.. Shield is down , slag the planet, Rebels dead in 10 mins, time for bloody tea.
THE END... Any Questions???
Oh and if the Empire complains about the $$$ cost for dumping a SD like that for the operation, "They can BILL me!" I'd probably get a friggen medal from Palpatine himself!
As for the Helios or Tsunami at 3000MT's? Impressive, but I doubt it as my fighter would be serverly damaged or outright destroyed by my own backlash or worse friendly fire (damn Ursa wing in my way again...) in the combat area.
I'm not sure what the final disposition of the chart is going to be but I had envisioned a TOTAL recalibration even for FS weaponry. This is NOT a blind , plug in other universes compared to standard FS2 numbers. OH HELL NO. This was supposed to be a comparision using what we KNOW about materials and how much damage it can take by various weapons. Everything from standard explosive warheads, to beam weaponry. (missiles, lasers, phasers, photonic torpedoes, X-Rays, and anyting else SF has come up with). The point is that MANY of these weapons will fall into the SAME category and probably will have the same ratings. The only true reason they will have actual differences is A.) powersouce, the size and type determines potential output, and B.) delivery device, how that power is channeled to make that efect is taken into consideration.
ie: So the local NUkE plant can make 200TW's (?) but my home outlet can only do 110vlts so I can only shock people in my room with a wire... my delivery device and the power channeled makes for a rather ineffectual weapon although the POTENTIAL is there, the application is insifficiant
Incidently, the most recounted power of a Trek Photon is 64MT. Now did you say 7 thousand times more powerful? So the FS ordiance would have to be 448,000MT's, obviously it is NOT. Next example please? (or better yet quit while you are ahead)...
"Cannon is what people argue that exists, on ships that do NOT exist!" - My favorite Sci-fi quote ever!
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
If they do not DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the movies and novelizations, then the figures stand.
And if I really want to be nasty, I can also point out that a single heavy turbolaser (reference: original version of A New Hope, scenes of the Death Star's gun galleries) is actually about the same size, if not smaller then, one of the chin guns of an AT-AT walker.
And there is no way in hell an AT-AT's chin guns are putting out anything remotely like 200 gigatons. Try under one kiloton. That's ICE around the generators. WATER ICE. If anything like a kiloton of energy was released it WOULD ALL MELT. But IT DOESN'T.
Movies. Directly contradictory. Owned. Move along.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
And if I really want to be nasty, I can also point out that a single heavy turbolaser (reference: original version of A New Hope, scenes of the Death Star's gun galleries) is actually about the same size, if not smaller then, one of the chin guns of an AT-AT walker.
And there is no way in hell an AT-AT's chin guns are putting out anything remotely like 200 gigatons. Try under one kiloton. That's ICE around the generators. WATER ICE. If anything like a kiloton of energy was released it WOULD ALL MELT. But IT DOESN'T.
Movies. Directly contradictory. Owned. Move along.
Where do you get your arguments? Fallacies-R-Us? The AT-AT's chin guns are blasters, not turbolasers, and the DS's turbolaser turrets are larger than X-Wing fighters (and they're light or medium TLs, IIRC), The AT-AT is not a starship, and does not have starship level weaponry. It doesn't matter how big the guns are. It matters what they do. The AT-AT has never been seen with gigaton-level firepower. Star Destroyers have displayed such firepower many times.
Scratch another Fiver fanwhore argument.
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First, the chin guns of an AT-AT are laser cannon. The side-mount turrets on the head are the blasters. Try looking this up next time. Second, a Star Destroyer has never visibly fired on a target which would allow us to judge its firepower, IE a non-spacecraft target.
So, you're saying that the weapon size has no meaning?
Quite simply, similarly sized weapons have similar damage outputs, unless of course something about one of them is screwed up. So either you've thrown away all logic by saying that the size of the weapon does not matter at all (in which case I demand to know why it isn't possible for me to have a pocket Death Star) or you're saying that the weapons of an AT-AT are delibrately crap and the Empire is stupid, which makes my arguments for a lower level of damage output even more likely.
Hell, you're not even measuring damage output in the right units, for god's sake! Energy weapon output is measured in joules.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
First, the chin guns of an AT-AT are laser cannon. The side-mount turrets on the head are the blasters. Try looking this up next time. Second, a Star Destroyer has never visibly fired on a target which would allow us to judge its firepower, IE a non-spacecraft target.
WRONG! In TESB, Star Destroyers vaporized large asteroids with a single shot of its light turbolasers.
Quite simply, similarly sized weapons have similar damage outputs, unless of course something about one of them is screwed up. So either you've thrown away all logic by saying that the size of the weapon does not matter at all (in which case I demand to know why it isn't possible for me to have a pocket Death Star) or you're saying that the weapons of an AT-AT are delibrately crap and the Empire is stupid, which makes my arguments for a lower level of damage output even more likely.
I'm tempted to strangle you. If I took two bombs of the same size, one high-explosive and one nuclear, they would NOT have similar damage outputs. The AT-AT's weapons are not as powerful as TLs because the vehicle is too small to have that powerful a generator. Besides, those are likely light and medium TLs, and in footage, the turrets were larger than Rebel starfighters, let alone the chin turret of an AT-AT. Furthermore, Base Delta Zero and the TESB asteroid scenes contradict your power levels. This is preschool level debating that you are displaying.
Hell, you're not even measuring damage output in the right units, for god's sake! Energy weapon output is measured in joules. [/B]
But a generator's output is measured in watts, which are joules per second.
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Ok Woolie, enough is enough.
Argument: A starship is bigger, therefore can have more powerful guns
Counterargument: A star destroyer has hundreds of turrets, all running from the same (proportionally larger) power source. You can't have both more guns and more powerful guns, because you're expanding quadradically to the roughly linear growth of available power.
Also: the Rebels clearly have access to starship-level weaponry, which by your accounts should devistate an AT-AT. Why on earth did they not use ONE F***ING GUN of similar power to an imperial turbolaser to just blast the ATAT's at Hoth into kingdom come?
Argument: anything involving "Base Delta Zero"
Counterargument: If I hear that stupid term again I'm really going to go off. I don't know what novels are referencing it but that's way too powerful for a star destroyer from what they do in the films. I've brought up the inconsistancy of star wars "canon" before, and I'd gladly do it again. Refering to the thrawn trilogy again, which are as close to canon as books come, SD's simply don't display that level of firepower. Ever. Nor do they show that capacity at Hoth, where slagging the entire planet with an entire fleet isn't even considered. This goes back to using one piece of evidence that you like while ignoring the 50 that you don't.
Argument: SD Turbolasers vaporized an asteroid in TESB
Counterargument: And? Asteroids are not necessarily anything close to solid, and the ones we see the SD's destroying have no size context. Nevermind that, even assuming iron composition, those asteroids breaking up the way they do only warrent maybe kiloton ratings on the guns (which as you've said yourself were the heavy ones).
And by the way, "Fanboy" refers to someone who defends something like this beyond all reason, aka you. So whenever you spout this garbage, don't imply that we're the fanboys and you're the logical one.
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Jesus H Bubba would you give it a rest? It's all fictional and the fact that anyone could concievably care is doing my head in.
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The EU novels are all the same in canoncity. The Thrawn trilogy, NJO, even KJA's novels are official. Base Delta Zero, a single transport fleet carrying away a planet's oceans, a criminal group building a stripped down Death Star (Darksaber)--it's all canon. Also, the TLs used in TESB are light turbolasers.
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Woolie, the turbolaser commentaries you linked to earlier stated that in ten seconds, a single X-wing can put out more power with it's guns then the ENTIRE U.S.
Now, I'm assuming this is supported in this "ICS."
I'm also assuming that the AT-AT's have guns on par or greater than said X-wing Blasters (pls don't say the X-Wings have a superior power source or something, cuz that would just be nonsensical). From what I can find, the U.S. power output, (using only the Nuclear Gens, so it's less than the total) is about 780 Gigawatt Hours.
Do any of the AT-AT's shots do anywhere near the 488 Megaton range of damage?
If anyone sees anything wrong, with my conversions, plz feel free to correct them. I'm working with second hand knowledge...
Note: 1 Mt= 1.6 billion kilowatt hours, correct...?
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X-Wings do not produce 488 megaton shots. The accepted figures are 2-20 kilotons for the guns, with high-megaton for the proton torpedoes, which are missiles and don't really count. The figure for the laser cannons comes from Slave-1's easily destroying asteroids much larger than itself in AOTC.
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Well, like I said, I was going by your link to the Turbolaser commentaries.
And didn't it use Seismic Charges or something or other for that, and not it's lasers...?
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The Slave-1 blew up asteroids with single shots from its laser cannons. It blew up dozens of them with single detonations of seismic charges.
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Well you know what if were going on the if its on film it must be true approach, i play the John Kryton universe destroying worm holes from the will of his mind.
Either that or i'll go make some crappy home movie make up some fact and figures, chuck in some crappy techno bable and claim it to be the be best god damn thing in the world beatable by none.
In other words would you shut the hell up already?
...actually scratch that its more fun watching you rip into each other peice by peice ... haha
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Well, I'll have to verify that when I get my Ep.2 DVD back from my dad.
Either way, It still provides unrealistic figures.
(So they are seismic charges? How the hell are seismic charges supposed to work in space...?)
@Sheepy: Good, now stay out if you don't have anything to add ;)
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Uh, they throw out green rings that slice things in half?:p
My guess is that they're designed to burrow into planet's surfacs and take out the bedrock or other substrate, causing collapses, earthquakes, and various other Bad Things. Fett was improvising when he used them in space.
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...space is a vacum it needs substance to cause its impact, no substance, no impace. seismic charges = NOT ****ING LIKELY!
AND DONT IGNORE MY POST!
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Uh, the seismic charge apparently causes seismic activity by destroying underlayers of the ground with that green glowy ring. That's why the blast is planar instead of spherical.
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do you ever get the feeling you like SW a little to much?
.... thought not
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Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to SpaceBattles.com.
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Originally posted by Sheepy
do you ever get the feeling you like SW a little to much?
.... thought not
Do you ever get the feeling you take semantics too literally?
...thought not.
Originally posted by Lynx
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to SpaceBattles.com.
:p
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i guess that all depends on what form of semantics you mean? and even then probably not
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I'm talking about dialogue and names. Just because it's called a laser cannon doesn't mean it shoots cannon balls of lasers or, in the case of a seismic charge, the name doesn't necessarily mean it's an earthquake bomb.
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Originally posted by Sheepy
do you ever get the feeling you like SW a little to much?
.... thought not
tehehehe!!! :)
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It's my policy to NOT give the public what it wants... (so Sheepy's post is ignored)... :P
So... Let's get this train wreck under control, Stithe, any news about the Death Star? I think it's a must have, but implimentation in a non-dedicated SW mod would be tricky.
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And if you give the ISD (impossible) 200-Gt Turbolasers, I'll give ya a swift kick in the -!
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The Slave-1 blew up asteroids with single shots from its laser cannons.
Well, watched the Ep. 2 Slave 1 fight, and I don't know where the hell you guys came up with 20 Kt. Not counting the fact that MANY of those bolts were impacting Obi-wan's fighter (which would have been obliterated, IIRC, if the bolts were approaching 20 kilotons), all that Jango managed with his lasers was to destroy very small rocks, up to have the size of his fighter. And there were many, many instances of several bolts impacting the same rock.
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The novels are canon, you say? Good, chew on this. Direct quotation from X-Wing: Wedge's Gamble.
Ackbar sat back in his eggshell repulsorlift chair. "You have the basics: one standard day ago Warlord Zsinj showed up in the system with the Iron Fist, launched a wing of TIEs, and proceeded with a planetary bombardment. Our base there was hit hard, but since it was underground, not as hard as Zsinj would undoubtedly like to think..."
"...How badly was Noquivzor hit?"
Ackbar's eyes half-closed. "We had major damage to the barracks complex. Multiple floors collapsed one atop the other. We will be a long time digging bodies out. Rogue Squadron lost a significant portion of their support staff. The hanger complex, on the other horizon, escaped damage. When we get them back from Coruscant they will have ships to fly."
Noquivzor Base had no shields, and was the only target of any significance on the world. If a Super Star Destroyer was unable to dig it out, a SUPER STAR DESTROYER with a minimum broadside of 450 heavy turbolasers, was unable to dig it out completely, 200 gigatons is utterly impossible. 200 gigatons would exacavate to a ridiculous depth, a half-kilometer at least. With an opening volley of 450 heavy turbolasers, at 200 gigatons the Iron Fist's first broadside should have blasted straight through the planetary crust and annihilated everything for a conservative minimum of twenty kilometers in every direction. It didn't. Major parts of the base survived, including the hanger and powerplant.
Before you say that they simply glassed the planet, they did not. Noquivzor was still habitable after the bombardment ended and Noquivzor Base was eventually fully repaired.
Another interesting little factoid: cruising about Babylon 5 tech sites, I ran across a reference to the power of a Shadow Battlecrab's Death Ray. There is visual evidence from the series that they can blow a good-sized plantoid (650 meters judging from size in relation to the Battlecrab) in half, and dialouge that suggests they are capable of glassing a planetary surface in a little more then a day. Using only a single weapon.
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The DeathStar is in progress... I am using Goobs recent builds to help me put her together using multi-dock... With this application... You will be on the DS with it's full aresenal! I should be able to fit most if not all "major" ships in this model, suchas the shadows, or the galaxy.... More as things progress in that department!
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did you say "on" as in part of the crew??? I had enough trounble with ships pasing THROUGH the DS cause it was too big. Plus ships attacking itwould cause a crash. I was hoping to make a few stages. stage one is a targetable model for long distance (plus set turret object for cut scenes or fredded fire beam events for SPECIFIC ships destruction. Later using pieces from XWA make tubes for the trench run (I did some tests pretending the DS interior was SDF-1 guts. it was, interesting... half success half failure. In the end for a PROPER trench run I figured i'd have to wait for teh ground mods to get done so as to use those techniques and make the DS surface like that a seperate mission stage (so in toital you had the initial mision plus like 2 red alret types to tie them together for the Death star mission. I'm not sure if they are still doing that but the SW team was thinking along similar lines long ago.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Well, watched the Ep. 2 Slave 1 fight, and I don't know where the hell you guys came up with 20 Kt. Not counting the fact that MANY of those bolts were impacting Obi-wan's fighter (which would have been obliterated, IIRC, if the bolts were approaching 20 kilotons), all that Jango managed with his lasers was to destroy very small rocks, up to have the size of his fighter. And there were many, many instances of several bolts impacting the same rock.
Actually, the most accepted figure is 2 kilotons. And maybe it wasn't obliterated because the shields and hull of the Jedi starfighter were so strong that they could withstand direct hits from kiloton-level blasts?:rolleyes:
Also, the intact circuitry under the hull breaches indicates that the Jedi starfighter has a shield layer under the hull as well as over it.
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Originally posted by Lynx
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to SpaceBattles.com.
It's far worse than that. Welcome to SpaceBattles.com's vs Forum. The place that makes the rest of spacebattles.com look normal.
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Hmm...no rebuttal, Woolie?
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To what? Karajorma's just trolling.
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Nope. Not trolling Expressing an opinion. I'm registered at spacebattles. I avoid the vs forum like the plague.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Actually, the most accepted figure is 2 kilotons. And maybe it wasn't obliterated because the shields and hull of the Jedi starfighter were so strong that they could withstand direct hits from kiloton-level blasts?:rolleyes:
Also, the intact circuitry under the hull breaches indicates that the Jedi starfighter has a shield layer under the hull as well as over it.
Ah, well 2 Kt is a more reasonable figure, I think...
Now if only I could get you away from the whole 200 Gt figure, then my mission would be completel...:p
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Whether you like ICS or not, Base Delta Zero requires gigaton-level firepower. The SPK is rated in the gigaton range as well, so why should an ISD that can do the same thing be rated much lower?
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Because 1: The effects witnessed in the SW movie don't come close to rating that kinda firepower for Turbolasers (contradiction)
2: The ISD is 1.8 Kilometers long, IIRC. The SPK, IIRC, covers half a planet.
3. Same as #1.
4. Same as #1.
5. 200 Gt over 120 Turrets equals 24 Teratons per volley, IIRC. Whats the Recharge rate on Turbolasers again? 1-7 Seconds?
The damage output in the movies isn't even close to that, so essentially, same as #1.
IIRC, Movies > Literature in terms of canon.
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1. Since the movies didn't explicitly say "No BDZ", the BDZ stands. Besides, the guns fired in the movies are light TLs. The heavy TLs were fired only in ROTJ, at other ships, and at too long a range so see anything. An ISD has 120 light guns but only 6 heavies. The light turbolasers' yields have been pegged at anything from a few megatons to a few hundred megatons.
2. First of all, the ISD is 1.6 km, and second, that doesn't matter.
3. Same as #1
4. Same as #1
5. There are only six heavy turbolasers on an ISD, and again, the only time we see them, it's from too far a distance to observe anything, especially if the TLs strike shields.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
1. Since the movies didn't explicitly say "No BDZ", the BDZ stands. Besides, the guns fired in the movies are light TLs. The heavy TLs were fired only in ROTJ, at other ships, and at too long a range so see anything. An ISD has 120 light guns but only 6 heavies. The light turbolasers' yields have been pegged at anything from a few megatons to a few hundred megatons.
2. First of all, the ISD is 1.6 km, and second, that doesn't matter.
3. Same as #1
4. Same as #1
5. There are only six heavy turbolasers on an ISD, and again, the only time we see them, it's from too far a distance to observe anything, especially if the TLs strike shields.
1.Yet the firepower witnessed can in no way be in the Gigaton range, therefore "No BDZ" is a necessity, because BDZ requires many many MANY times the damage capabilities witnessed.
2. Your point was "If the Shadow PlanetKiller has Gigaton weapons, why not the ISD?" My point was that it's far easier to believe something half the size of a planet has gigaton weapons rather than something I could walk across in an hour ;)
An Acclamator transport's heavy turbolasers are rated at 200 gigatons per shot
Ok, so instead of a Warship Armed with 200 Gig all around, with 800 Gig heavies, we have a ship armed with 800 Gig Heavies and 100 Meg lights.
And a transport capable of melting continents with its guns in minutes.
Somehow, this doesn't seem ANY BETTER AT ALL :D
And I know for FACT I heard someone say the light turbos are 200 Gigatons...
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Aha. Found it.
The Episode II ICS states that the MEDIUM TURBOLASER on the Acclamator TRANSPORT SHIP is 200 Gigatons per shot. The main guns on the ISD, a battlecruiser will obviously be much higher than 200GT per shot and according to official and cannon evidence of the movies, turbolasers can shoot once every second or so.
Well, medium, but the point stands.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
1.Yet the firepower witnessed can in no way be in the Gigaton range, therefore "No BDZ" is a necessity, because BDZ requires many many MANY times the damage capabilities witnessed.
2. Your point was "If the Shadow PlanetKiller has Gigaton weapons, why not the ISD?" My point was that it's far easier to believe something half the size of a planet has gigaton weapons rather than something I could walk across in an hour ;)
Ok, so instead of a Warship Armed with 200 Gig all around, with 800 Gig heavies, we have a ship armed with 800 Gig Heavies and 100 Meg lights.
And a transport capable of melting continents with its guns in minutes.
Somehow, this doesn't seem ANY BETTER AT ALL :D
And I know for FACT I heard someone say the light turbos are 200 Gigatons...
I don't know where you get this ****, but only the heavy turbolasers are 200GT+. The others are orders of magnitude weaker. Think more like 800+ gig heavies and 20 megaton lights. Also, we NEVER see the heavy turbolasers used on non-ship targets except in Base Delta Zero scenarios. Besides, there's still the Eclipse, which is an instant planet killer. Also, the SPK is not half the size of a planet. It is much smaller, and stretches out like rubber to envelop the target planet.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
I don't know where you get this ****, but only the heavy turbolasers are 200GT+. The others are orders of magnitude weaker. Think more like 800+ gig heavies and 20 megaton lights. Also, we NEVER see the heavy turbolasers used on non-ship targets except in Base Delta Zero scenarios. Besides, there's still the Eclipse, which is an instant planet killer. Also, the SPK is not half the size of a planet. It is much smaller, and stretches out like rubber to envelop the target planet.
Well, I get this **** from you, no offense :):
The heavy TLs were fired only in ROTJ, at other ships
And I took your "couple megatons to couple hundred megatons" estimate, and chose something in between. Why all of a sudden is it 20 megs?
800 Gigaton heavies is still, quote, bull, end quote.
And I have no idea what the Eclipse is, but if it uses said 800 Gt heavies, it's as bull**** as the rest :)
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Uh, its main armament is a superlaser in miniature that does a BDZ instantly. It's similar in size to a Super Star Destroyer. Since there is no direct contradictory evidence, the Eclipse is there and admissable.
Plus there's the Sovereign, which does the same thing.
And then there's the Galaxy Gun, which is a giant FTL missile launcher. It can send a planet-destroying (as in BOOM, it blows up) missile anywhere in the galaxy.
And then there is the Sun Crusher, which needs no further explanation.
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Well, since I have no reliable first hand information, I can't speak on the matter.
Like I said, My only real problem is with the multi-gigaton Turbolasers.
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The Galaxy Gun could just send a missile through the wormhole linking the B5 and SW galaxies and blow up Centauri Prime.
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The whatuma what?
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And then there's the Galaxy Gun, which is a giant FTL missile launcher. It can send a planet-destroying (as in BOOM, it blows up) missile anywhere in the galaxy.
I bet you really hate the EU now.:D
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Originally posted by Getter Robo G
did you say "on" as in part of the crew??? I had enough trounble with ships pasing THROUGH the DS cause it was too big. Plus ships attacking itwould cause a crash. I was hoping to make a few stages. stage one is a targetable model for long distance (plus set turret object for cut scenes or fredded fire beam events for SPECIFIC ships destruction. Later using pieces from XWA make tubes for the trench run (I did some tests pretending the DS interior was SDF-1 guts. it was, interesting... half success half failure. In the end for a PROPER trench run I figured i'd have to wait for teh ground mods to get done so as to use those techniques and make the DS surface like that a seperate mission stage (so in toital you had the initial mision plus like 2 red alret types to tie them together for the Death star mission. I'm not sure if they are still doing that but the SW team was thinking along similar lines long ago.
I have done it vefore with another model.... First off... You have to increase the mass (that is in the pof model) then you have to edit the density in the tbl files... After I played with it for awhile I had a real good working model.... PLUS... the core will be the main which will allow for slow movements.... And complete turret layout... I have beenb playing with this for awhile!
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
I bet you really hate the EU now.:D
I despised it to begin with. But, yes, this makes it worse.
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Thing is, the Star Wars Universe is thousands of years older than the B5 or Star Trek universes. And their technology database is really screwed, the amount of power even a standard Star Destroyer would need to keep up a battery of weapon-fire is something like the power of a small star. We're talking Omega particles here.
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The reactor medium is called "hypermatter" and the output of an ISD has been compared to that of a star.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
I despised it to begin with. But, yes, this makes it worse.
Just wait till you see the Sun Crusher! A fighter-sized ship that blows up stars! It's lost tech though, because Kyp Durron fkew the only one ever built into a black hole. The dumbass.
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From now on, the movies are the ONLY canon sources. These ****ing Authors can't be ****ing trusted to write decent material.
Assuming, of course, you aren't just ****ing with me.
By the by, IIRC those novels also provide yet ANOTHER contradiction to the 200-800 Gt turbolasers.
The list grows ever larger...
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No, you cannot dictate the canon policy. The creators of the unvierses involved dictate it.
Also, BDZ cannot be dismissed because it has occurred multiple times in the SW timeline.
More evidence of SW's power comes when a single transport fleet took away a planet's entire oceans and the Empire enlisted one private shipping company, Black Sun, to carry out raw-material gathering for and supervise construction of DSII and the Empire had almost completed the project in a matter of month, despite the fact that one company was transporting all the materials and the project was totally secret until the plans were conveniently "leaked" to Bothan spies under Palpatine's orders so as to lure the Rebels into a trap. Were it not for the mother of fluke victories, the Empire would have won.
Even without BDZ calcs, the Empire would win because of (a) the MT-level calcs derived from the TESB asteroid scene, (b) the obscene number of ships the Empire has (25,000+ Star Destroyers and possibly millions of smaller ships), the superweapons the Empire has (Death Stars, Eclipse, Sovereign, Galaxy Gun, World Devastators), and several B5 scenes, including the 2MT nuke scene, the Excalibur-vs.-asteroid scene, and others.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
No, you cannot dictate the canon policy. The creators of the unvierses involved dictate it.
Also, BDZ cannot be dismissed because it has occurred multiple times in the SW timeline.
More evidence of SW's power comes when a single transport fleet took away a planet's entire oceans and the Empire enlisted one private shipping company, Black Sun, to carry out raw-material gathering for and supervise construction of DSII and the Empire had almost completed the project in a matter of month, despite the fact that one company was transporting all the materials and the project was totally secret until the plans were conveniently "leaked" to Bothan spies under Palpatine's orders so as to lure the Rebels into a trap. Were it not for the mother of fluke victories, the Empire would have won.
That first bit was a note to myself. There are several fan communities that do not use novels as canon sources, because, in much the same situation as here, they contradict each other and the movies.
BDZ can be dismissed because, as I said, the Firepower displayed in the Movies (greater canon source than novels) does not support such outrageous outputs. Note: It has occured in the NOVELS, AFAIK. I don't recall any mention of BDZ in the movies :D
That's great and all, but what does it have to do with power? All it really seems to mean is that they have some considerable economic and transportation capabilities. So what's your point ????
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Think about how much ****ing energy it takes to bring "planet-encircling" oceans up into space and haul them away in spaceships. Fursthermore, the TLs according to the TESB asteroid scene are each 10 times more powerful than the nuke that blew up the Minbari warcruiser Black Star. And those are the ship's secondary armament.
You think the EU is a pain in the ass? Maybe we should try a Star Trek TOS debate, where firepower can be sub-kiloton in one episode and teraton the next. And where Kirk becomes invincible when his shirt is ripped.
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So? It says nothing about firepower, which is hte only point I'm trying to get through.
Wow, you must be reading something other than me. Apparently the ESB reference you're refering to is the "asteroid vaporization" example right? Well, Dr. Saxton puts down calculations which seem seem to be within the kiloton range unless my arithmetic is wrong.
I don't doubt you about ST:TOS. Yet it has absolutely no bearing on my points.
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The fact remains that EU is largely canon, and comprises the vast majority of the body of canon. Besides, if you refuse to play by any rules other than your own, you're not really debating. Accept the validity to the EU or I'll be forced to accept your concession.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The fact remains that EU is largely canon, and comprises the vast majority of the body of canon. Besides, if you refuse to play by any rules other than your own, you're not really debating. Accept the validity to the EU or I'll be forced to accept your concession.
:lol:
So now it's "accept what I say, or I plug up my ears and go 'la la la'?"
What exactly is the EU again?
Bah, in any case, I said I don't accept novels/comics as canon. However, that counts for squat when you fail to address my other points regarding contradictions to the movies.
:)
And the EU can be as canon as it wants to certain people. But if something it says contradicts the movies, that 'something' gets the boot.
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EU = Expanded Universe, All of it is canon, unless it causes really big problems with the movies. You cannot conveniently erase BDZ from the canon, because it involves weapons (heavy turbolasers) that have barely ever been seen, and never against a planet, of which the movies provide pretty much no information (keep in mind that despite the long range of the ships in the Battle of Endor, the ROTJ novelization called that range "point blank").
And what makes you think BDZ will never appear in the movies? Lucas adopted Coruscant from the EU.
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Point blank? Yeah, so? :confused:
Now, turbolaser (providing a conveniant 800GT output of energy) hitting the ground would be a disaster beyond human imagination. First of all, while burning through the atmosphere, it would heat up the air to billions of degrees (comparable to a supernova) would cause a sudden expansion of the air so rapid that first of all, it would create a sound shock that's basically thunder (caused by the air being heated up to 10,000 degrees by lightning) x 1,000,000, shattering virtually all non-flexible material for hundreds of miles. Then the wind would be so strong that you wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Imperial Palace fly by.
Next, after it hits the ground the rock on the surface would immediately expand into a plasma fireball, like a nuke, because if the footage is to be believed in Star Wars, the energy is absorbed very rapidly, so it would end up vaporizing everything anywhere close to it.
But most of all, the worst damage would occur from where the turbolaser bores into the ground. The rock is also heated to billions of degrees and expands at insane rates. But this is a solid material, rather than a gaseous substance, so the result is FAR more catastrophic. The expanding and superheated plasma expands and utterly shatters the surrounding rock. This would create both gigantic cracks bursting through the crust of the planet shooting out ultra high-speed, billion degree plasma throughout the area. Then after that, a huge seismic shockwave such that humans have never imagined occuring would propogate under the surface. This shockwave, being relatively shallow beneath the surface would create even more shattering of the crust (think taking a sandbox, and doing a whip motion). And since the wave moves through a solid material, it is transfered very far and quickly, ripping apart all foundations and structures, as well as natural landmarks (mountains etc.) for hundreds if not thousands of miles. Oh and I almost forgot that the shockwave would also cause any tension in the rocks to be released causing even MORE earthquakes.
And that's from ONE shot.
This is the effect those "800 Gigaton Turbolasers" would have on a planets surface. 1 800 Gigaton blast would be sufficient to hull a SSD stem to stern, no matter what kinda shielding or armor it has.
I really did enjoy reading Cannikin's posts, as quoted above. They make it so much easier on my fingers :D
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Woolie, there's no way your profile is accurate. Unless you have an IQ of less than 50, anyway.
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(http://www.gamebanshee.com/screenshots/starwarskotorii/conceptart/screenshot9.jpg)
[SIZE=24]DARTH NIHILUS!!!!111[/SIZE]
[Hk-50]Sarcastic Statement: This thread is now officially stupid.
Rhetorical Query: Why have the moderators failed to engage their assassination protocols against this thread yet?[/HK-50]
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Nihilus is easily the best Sith Lord ever...actually, he's just a little better than Revan w/ Cloak and Mask. But still, that's saying a lot.
And who really cares if you think the thread is stupid? It's a discussion.
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Correction: this thread has been stupid. It just now has Ace's seal of approval.
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I find it amusing that BDZ rearranged becomes DBZ...
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Woolie, I'v just spent the last half-hour reading this thread. I have just one comment....
....Shut up. Now. :headz:
Now, back to the original point of this thread....
The Xover I'd like to see would be:
Original BSG + Stargate SG-1 + Farscape
Of course, I have to point out that that combo is the brain child of a talented man who has posted his story at Fanfiction.net, and any mod that combined these three should follow his vision.
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OK... I'll look into it!
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Originally posted by Ace
[lvlshot]
[Hk-50]Sarcastic Statement: This thread is now officially stupid.
Rhetorical Query: Why have the moderators failed to engage their assassination protocols against this thread yet?[/HK-50]
That's HK-47, you.
Woolie, I've already given a contradictory novel canon example. I can dredge up more if you want. Give up. You can't win.
EDIT: Friggin' timewarp...
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
That's HK-47, you.
Woolie, I've already given a contradictory novel canon example. I can dredge up more if you want. Give up. You can't win.
EDIT: Friggin' timewarp...
[HK-50]Condescending Statement: The HK-50 series protocol droids use two descriptors, while the obviously inferior older model constructed by Revan uses only one descriptor. Of course, only an organic meatbag such as yourself would fail to see this.[/HK-50]
Hrmm, maybe I should do all of my posts HK style ;)
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:lol: I'd love to see how long you could keep it up, Ace. :nod:
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Maybe you should look at the brainchild created by yours truly at spacebattles.com that was the basis of the first Mega-Mod concept as it already includes: early Battletech, Super Robot Wars, Trek, Trek mirror universe, Robotech (mainly), Macross 7, and about to introduce B5 timeline. In the future will include Wars, BSG, Andromeda and a slew of others (I just have to get off my ass and write more)...
http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=42590&highlight=nexus
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Wow just wow.
Has no one here considered the fact that Star Destroyers may carry some sort of bomb or something that has huge output capable of slagging a planetary surface?
That's the only plausible explanation, since obviously the 800 gigaton number is crap.
More like 800 megawatts :lol:
edit: Perhaps all the off topic posts should be removed from this thread. This is, after all, not fanboybattles.com.
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*Growls*
Woolie, what have we 40kers told you at Spacebattles?
You don't know ANYTHING about 40k, you nitpick all kinds of ****ing bull**** from one little statement, you brag about your little 'Starforce' being so uber compared to 40k, take your statements and shove them where the sun don't shine.
Virus bombs are the uber kill everything virus. They do NOT light the atmosphere alight, those are Cyclonic torpedoes.
Christ, you really are ****ing retarded...
Like I said in the TBP forums, where you made the exact same argument, it's a ****ing game you goddamn fanboy piece of ****.
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This thread is funny in a 'seriously needs to get out more' way :)
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Originally posted by Azrael15
*Growls*
Woolie, what have we 40kers told you at Spacebattles?
You don't know ANYTHING about 40k, you nitpick all kinds of ****ing bull**** from one little statement, you brag about your little 'Starforce' being so uber compared to 40k, take your statements and shove them where the sun don't shine.
Virus bombs are the uber kill everything virus. They do NOT light the atmosphere alight, those are Cyclonic torpedoes.
Christ, you really are ****ing retarded...
Like I said in the TBP forums, where you made the exact same argument, it's a ****ing game you goddamn fanboy piece of ****.
IMO, theres way to much in that post that's rather unwarranted.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
IMO, theres way to much in that post that's rather unwarranted.
IMO there's way too many posts in this thread
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IMO, So...?
And this is nothing. 10-12 Page threads aren't all that rare on HLP.
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'IMO, theres way to much in that post that's rather unwarranted.'
There is nothing unwarranted in that post. He can only argue using his skills at 'nitpicking'
"Oooooooh, it can't be that strong because they'd kill themselves."
"That's impossible because bolters can't do (this)"
"Waaaah, I don't care. My Starforce-verse > 40k."
"Uuuuh, how can Virus bombs work? It doesn't make any sense... in my Starforce verse they use (this) and (that)."
Or, by far my favorite.
"If X-Wings are so powerful, how come they didn't use just one (1) at Hoth to vape the AT-ATs and then meet up with the transports?"
Woolie: "BECAUSE TEH TRANSPORTS WOULD DIE!!!!"
"If one X-Wing wasn't there?"
Woolie: "YEEEEEEEEES!!11"
I say the mod is an excellent idea, I'm really only interested in B5 v GTVA, but whenever Woolie rears his stupidity, espicially when it's for a non-canon game mod...
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Originally posted by Flipside
This thread is funny in a 'seriously needs to get out more' way :)
Sadly, I agree. If only because I've completely demolished the opposing argument multiple times.
Originally posted by Azrael15
"If X-Wings are so powerful, how come they didn't use just one (1) at Hoth to vape the AT-ATs and then meet up with the transports?"
Woolie: "BECAUSE TEH TRANSPORTS WOULD DIE!!!!"
"If one X-Wing wasn't there?"
Woolie: "YEEEEEEEEES!!11"
Actually, X-Wings eat AT-ATs alive. Read X-Wing: Isard's Revenge. I'm going to put Hoth down to the stupid pills that all who participate in a movie must take.
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Yeah, I know. I've read all the X-Wing books.
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Originally posted by Azrael15
'IMO, theres way to much in that post that's rather unwarranted.'
There is nothing unwarranted in that post. He can only argue using his skills at 'nitpicking'
"Oooooooh, it can't be that strong because they'd kill themselves."
"That's impossible because bolters can't do (this)"
"Waaaah, I don't care. My Starforce-verse > 40k."
"Uuuuh, how can Virus bombs work? It doesn't make any sense... in my Starforce verse they use (this) and (that)."
Or, by far my favorite.
"If X-Wings are so powerful, how come they didn't use just one (1) at Hoth to vape the AT-ATs and then meet up with the transports?"
Woolie: "BECAUSE TEH TRANSPORTS WOULD DIE!!!!"
"If one X-Wing wasn't there?"
Woolie: "YEEEEEEEEES!!11"
I say the mod is an excellent idea, I'm really only interested in B5 v GTVA, but whenever Woolie rears his stupidity, espicially when it's for a non-canon game mod...
Nevertheless, you really should try to keep the flaming down 'round here. Kalfireth will pwn j00, otherwise :nervous:
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Originally posted by Azrael15
Yeah, I know. I've read all the X-Wing books.
My apologies, then.
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That's why the point was raised, why waste time using snowspeeders, that sucked and lost 2 rebel pilots each, when one X-Wing, y'know if they're so uber, could fry all the At-Ats and then still be able to protect a transport!
I put it down to that Saxton is a ******, just because he has a phd or something doesn't mean he can't speak bull****. :p
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1st: I have asked for 2 or more solid references that can be exploited, and averaged out to help with balancing the mod out.... No one has done that yet....
2nd: On my own research by use of the library, the internet, and games... I have found that almost none of the references have a solid 100% bonifide kiloton potential.... All the references has, could, possibly, perhaps, and in theory... The only solid info that I have seen are in the games (the ones from the creators).... That is what I am using to break down my info....
3rd: I am doing this for several reasons.... 1) I love all the sci-fi fantasy stuff, for it is fun! 2) I am apart of of TBP, SWC, and BSG... The SWC project is hurting.... Where as the B5 team is not, and they are doing well... I am creating a bridge here to help the SWC team get back on their feet... Plus I figured what the hell, why not?
4th: Come back to this tiny little world known as Earth.... In the present preferably.... This is just a game, and all concepts of sci-fi fantasy was an attempt to inspire the "what if" concept.... We do not live in those worlds... We live here, and we seem to have forgotten how to just have fun, and enjoy what is in front of you.... Most of us here are adults with careers and such.... We deal with bickering, and petty arguements every moment of the day... We come here, or grab these sci-fi concepts as a means of escape.... Toi enjoy the what if ideas of others.... Why destroy that by bringing what irritates us in real life in here?
Lastly: I appreciate all of your views, but arguing does nothing.... If you wish to help then help... You know your talents, and obviously you like these concepts.... Help out, or be quiet... Now lets have fun! PEACE!
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Stick to the topic or this thread will get terminated.. ANd keep in mind what stithe just wrote.
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Sorry, stithe. You're absolutely right, about the keepign on track and not arguing. Got carried away.
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Its all good! Now lets have fun!
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Would we be able to get a list of just what all those files contain on your site? Like, are they B5 3.1 or not, and all that.
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Here are my basic rules with the universes mod.... 1) When the TBP, SWC, or BSG release a model or something I will then release it... In other words... What ever is out now, is in there.... 2) Plus there are extras to add to the game.... I will try to have a link up later to show the r1.1 ship list... Keep in mind it will change soon for r1.2 will soon be out!
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I did some conversions of alternate SW vessels for my personal use. IF Darksaber gave permission I would release them. Let me find a screen...
The three standard ones shown are for scale... They were from skimish pack 2 years ago. The reset are unique.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/getter_robo_g_2004/detail?.dir=a628&.dnm=f476.jpg&.src=ph
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Looks awsome! I am basically keeping to a standard ship list, and once I have all I need, I will then add a bit here and there.... Hopefully will have a bountiful amount of ships to awe, and inspire for an infinite amount of missions.... In the mean time.... I am going to finish up Chaos Mission 1.... After everyone has had a taste with the concepts.... I will then ask for helping hands to kick this into full blast... Note.... I am putting this together not only to create a space battles feel, but to help all mods.... More a bit later today! Thanx robo! And robo.... I think it is time to hash some stories here and there..... Hit some ideas up on the pvt forums! Thx!
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Point blank? Yeah, so? :confused:
This is the effect those "800 Gigaton Turbolasers" would have on a planets surface. 1 800 Gigaton blast would be sufficient to hull a SSD stem to stern, no matter what kinda shielding or armor it has.
I really did enjoy reading Cannikin's posts, as quoted above. They make it so much easier on my fingers :D
No, it can't take out an SSD with one shot because an SSD's "durasteel" (whatever that is) hull and insane shields can take numerous hits from 800-gigaton weapons. The Empire does NOT build ships out of anything even remotely resembling known materials.
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Woolie! Shut up! That argument has been dead for like 3 days now, including an explicit warning from both the thread creator and an administrator.
EDIT: ROFLMAO at the next post. Well said stithe!
:wakka:
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Woolie..... If you only come here to stir a flame war, dont bother.... The argument is retarded in regards to fantasy weapons that we will never see in our life time to prove who is right or wrong... Now dont make me go red neck on you, and duck tape you to the ceiling!
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??? I've never heard of that before. As much as I am tempted to ask what that means or how it relates to "Red-Necks", I'm as equally concerned as I am curious. :D
GAME ON!
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Getter I know you're not from the states, so let it suffice to say that it's an inside joke. Though I'm a little curious where duct tape to the ceiling came from, the redneck reference makes perfect sense.
EDIT: Timewarp!
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Its a military thing... Normally if we have a problem child we ducktape them to the ceiling pipe works... Some crucified... Others cacooned!
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Of course, when the waste crusher in Ep IV wasn't crushing super-duper-tough Empire Material, they used it to make small black holes ;)
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Yoy, sorry to bring some more fire here, but I have to defend WH40K :p
What WW says is bull :doubt:
They have like a dozen ways of doing exterminatus, ranging from the virus thing that does not kill everything ( d'huh, it did exist, in the veeeeeery old editions of 40 :p ), to some things more efficent like plasma bombing fault lines and crust borders to trigger some natural disasters, to vaporating atmosphere with -don't remember what- bombs. And finally, there's that Chaos star killer ship. I skip a lof of them, like the geobomb, etc.
If I could find it back, I'd post that funny article about a guy who asked why the Imperium wouldn't tract large asteroids to execute Exterminatus, comparing costs :p
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Er,
Born at Newport, RI Naval Hospital in 1970. Ex US Army Intelligence 88-91. Wasting away for last 3 years in Lancaster PA...
I'm from the states alright, just RI, CT and PA with some visiting to TX and FL
.
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Continue this on PMs if you wish to, Woolie.
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(http://members.cox.net/raurther/02-23-05-Work05.jpg)
Finishing the ISD, and then the mission will be made... After a full day of testing the chaos mission will be released! Then soon after the SWC guys might have a little teaser for you as well!!! :D
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(http://members.cox.net/raurther/03-10-05-ISD.jpg) More to come soon!!!
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Hum, beautiful ISD
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Here (http://www.stithe.biz/fs2-universes-release/klingvsminb.rar) is some in-game action of some of the chaos... More as things progress.... (Hopefully the forums will be back up to snuff too)
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Hmmm.... The rankings have even gotten a bit more interesting as well..... :/