Hard Light Productions Forums

Hosted Projects - Standalone => The Babylon Project => Topic started by: stithe2000 on February 14, 2005, 11:10:09 pm

Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 14, 2005, 11:10:09 pm
Coming soon....
(http://members.cox.net/raurther/CentauriVSEmpire.jpg)
Universes Chaos Mission 1....
A taste before the campaign......
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: IPAndrews on February 15, 2005, 04:25:45 am
The Centauri will get their asses handed to them... unless they take their mass drivers? Actually I tell you what they really need to make this a good match. One word. Octurion.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 06:46:13 am
I think it will be a good match! :)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Col. Fishguts on February 15, 2005, 12:49:52 pm
If Thrawn is commanding the Imperials, the Centauri will get their collective asses handed to them.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 15, 2005, 01:58:41 pm
Even if Zap Brannigan was commanding the Imperials, they'd still rip the Centauri a new one and turn Centauri Prime into a lifeless ball of molten rock.

The only good challenge for SW in any FS mod I know of is my own Starforce, and even they will lose.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 15, 2005, 02:24:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool

The only good challenge for SW in any FS mod I know of is my own Starforce, and even they will lose.


Shivans would rip the empire a new one ;)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 02:47:49 pm
Guess we will see.... depends how many, and what is in use.... IF... The Death Star is there... They are done.... Ship to ship... perhaps a chance... since I do not have the DS ready yet... this will be a ship to ship contest... The super is not ready yet.... However there star destroyers are significant.... I am finishing up a few more models, and will soon put it together... Mind you... It may not be completely balanced... I am slowly formulating the chart, but conversion is slow.... Dont have enough people to put the info together.... However, once the info is there I will balance out everything as I find out... This mission release will be 1.0 and as things upgrade so will the mission... I plan on making about 3 to 4 follow ups with this particular versus... After which I will do other versus... By request or by what you submit my way! I just need more help to bring this awsome what if concept to life.... :)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 15, 2005, 02:54:16 pm
Even with the Deathstar, pfft. Keep in mind, IIRC the Deathstar was pretty much a one of a kind ship.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 03:15:11 pm
yep.... but keep in mind that anything is possible with chaos! This is a what if idea.... so keep what if and possibilities open!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 15, 2005, 03:24:06 pm
...anything is possible, you say...

...Chaos...hmm

Can you get Woomeister to lend you the Gargant...?:nervous:
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Skullar on February 15, 2005, 03:32:20 pm
Alien   vs.   Predator

Batman  vs  Supermann

Coca Cola   vs.    Pepsi


thats Ok... but those Space Opera mixes are .... well.... like trying to bring palestines and jews together, they just don't mix.

And those crossovers never lead to anything good. The idea is to bring together the best of both worlds, but unfortunately, the result just lacks the consistency of each world.

No battleof endor-syndrom , no coca cola vs pepsi , and no more design flaws, please trust me on that.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 03:36:31 pm
You guys are no fun! It is just for the thrill of it! Granted... Nothing is perfect, but all these ideas are sci-fi fantasy, and so are the mods... You can either enjoy the mod, or dont bother with it... As for me... I am going to have fun!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Skullar on February 15, 2005, 03:56:53 pm
Well , I just wanted to say we have all seen this before, pal :)

Star Trek  vs Star Wars
Star Trek  vs  Babylon 5
Star Wars vs Babylon 5 ...

The problem is ... They are not playing at the same time ( Star Trek is further in the furure than Bab5, and Star Wars shows events that happened a LONG time ago in a galaxy FAR FAR away )  not playing in the same universe ( history was different "on the way" to the future ) and not with the same physical reality.

What do you want to do ? You cannot tell a trustworthy background story, or develop a really good storyline with historical background, coz whatever you come up with contradicts with "historical facts" of at least one space opera. Everything would have to stay uncomfortably ... simple.

The only thing you can do with your Empire vs Centauri  thing is to let imperial vessels fight against centauri vessels... but this would get boring pretty fast.

I just think this is a dead end, and I fear there won't be as much fun as you want to have out of it.
Personally, I will ignore it.

"Either we commit ourselfs to this completely, or we don't do it."
-- John Sheridan , No surrender No retreat

If you do 20 things simultaneously, you don't do even one of them properly. Just like those heroes out there who work on 8 FS2 projects at the same time, profoundly lacking the ability to CONCENTRATE. Well , some of them just do it so they can jerk off at the sight of a dozen project ribbons in their profile *lol*

Well, you are working on Star Wars as well..
You will be happier if you'd do B5only and StarWarsonly stuff I predict.

I think there is place enough for all universes , I love B5, and I enjoy Star Wars , looking forward to StarWars mod releases too..... but I still hope they don't get in each others way.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 04:07:42 pm
Oh boy.... I am not going to rewrite anything... This is its own little mod.... I am slowly writing a story about the knossos gate.... This is a "what if" idea... This little mission is just a small piece to a bigger project... Plus, all stories are being looked at, and carefully weighed... In the mean time.... As I said... This is strictly for fun... I know you are dedicated completely to B5, and I am as well.. This is just one mission.... The campaign is a little bit more complex... Plus consider this.... It is easier to criticize another persons idea than it is to build on.... The hardest part is to help find a way to make the idea work.... I know the ideas have been played with, but I did not play them nor make them.... Anyway... I am not going to turn this little idea into a flame war.... That is not my intentions at all.... All this is, is fun, and perhaps to recap a bit more inspriation for modding is all.... Now.... Do you have any constructive remarks, or no? :D
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 04:17:31 pm
OK... You editted a bit while I was responding... First off... This is not a job, and I have done a lot for B5 and a few other mods as well... This is not a job, nor is this paying my bills... This is a hobby, and for fun.... Did you lose sight of that??? Now stop being super critical, and if you have something to say to me, pm me.... Do not do this in public....
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Skullar on February 15, 2005, 04:25:41 pm
Yes, I have a final remark.

1. If its good for inspiration recap, then go for it.

2. I don't see HOW it could ever work. As soon as I see a Centauri ship and an imperial ship at the same time I'd think.... "Huh ? Something is not right here." It produces "This doesn't fit together" feelings, and such feelings are being avoided at all costs. I can even give you a psychological explanation if you want.
It would just be as if the greek Warriors in "Troja" were armed with AK47 StormRifles. and the Trojans were fighting back with magical powers..... no matter how funny the idea is, in the end people would still prefer the ORIGINAL version without misplaced weaponry and supernatural skills.

So, even if you have blessed misson designing skills, come up with a great story.... different univeses didn't fit, they don't fit and they won't fit in the future.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Skullar on February 15, 2005, 04:26:58 pm
oops ..... well, Ill keep my mouth shut now.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Primus on February 15, 2005, 04:27:32 pm
I'll drop my humble opinion here..

Why everything must be so serious? I'm looking forward to see the chaos. I think it's gonna be very interesting and fun, despite the fact it isn't real, or canon, or historical or the universes are diffirent, etc.

For a change, something completely diffirent.. Gotta be fun :)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 04:34:35 pm
Thank you!! That is all I am trying to share!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 04:45:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
...anything is possible, you say...

...Chaos...hmm

Can you get Woomeister to lend you the Gargant...?:nervous:

Maybe if I brought flowers???? lol! :)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Col. Fishguts on February 15, 2005, 05:06:20 pm
While I'm personally no big fan of universe-crossovers...I'd still say give it a try.

It might be hard/impossible to come up with a good and serious story line, but the possibilities for a Deus-Ex-Machina-style campaign are enormous.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 05:28:45 pm
Yep... Which makes it a good challenge!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 15, 2005, 05:30:35 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


Shivans would rip the empire a new one ;)


Do you know what a Base Delta Zero is? It is much worse than what the Lucifer did to Vasuda Prime. In a BDZ, there are no survivors, unlike the Vasuda Prime bombardment. A single Star Destroyer can carry out a Base Delta Zero in a matter of hours.

Also, the Empire has over 20,000 Star Destroyers and an incalculable number of other capital ships. Plus, there are those 200 gigaton turbolasers. One shot is as powerful as four BFReds firing at once.

The Empire would rip the Shivans a new one. The Shivans ripped the FS1 GTA a new one. The FS1 GTA would rip the Centauri a whole bunch of new ones.  Do you get the picture now?
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 05:39:21 pm
Once we have the balance table (proven info, with references, and point break down) released we will worry about that another time... Lets just have fun with the chaos at hand!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 15, 2005, 05:42:07 pm
www.stardestroyer.net

Read everything that has to do with Star Wars.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 15, 2005, 05:48:32 pm
I have, and then some! Once the chart is finished we can worry bout the actual damage% etc... However, for now enjoy the... If you wish to see the actual physics... Help out.... Once everything is busted down, and put into a point value then that will be helpful.... Here is something that may give you a bit of insight... Did you know that a single damage point on the weapons table for any weapon has a .66 kton value? I found this out by digging through FS1, and found a couple of references of medium yields, and got an average base.... After which we are using some break downs from all references to help bring things to light... The hardest ones to locate for true values are B5, BSG, and a few others... So far not enough references have been found to support a good thorough break down... A lot of people speculate... So far the best references I have been able to completely reconstruct is the Star Trek Universe... They have all values, and game values to help with a good break down... Let me know if you have some ideas to approach this.. I think I have covered a good portion of my references... On top of that SpaceBattles.com has a lot of info in this regards, but the hardest info to find are the ones from the creators themselves... However, with time and patients come good things! The same should be possible here! Have fun!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: PSI-KILLER on February 15, 2005, 06:02:49 pm
Can't wait to blow up some Tie-fighters in my starfury!!!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 15, 2005, 06:17:32 pm
That's about the only thing you will be able to blow up with a StarFury. Meanwhile, those TIEs will take you out with one shot.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 15, 2005, 06:22:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by stithe2000
I have, and then some! Once the chart is finished we can worry bout the actual damage% etc... However, for now enjoy the... If you wish to see the actual physics... Help out.... Once everything is busted down, and put into a point value then that will be helpful.... Here is something that may give you a bit of insight... Did you know that a single damage point on the weapons table for any weapon has a .66 kton value? I found this out by digging through FS1, and found a couple of references of medium yields, and got an average base.... After which we are using some break downs from all references to help bring things to light... The hardest ones to locate for true values are B5, BSG, and a few others... So far not enough references have been found to support a good thorough break down... A lot of people speculate... So far the best references I have been able to completely reconstruct is the Star Trek Universe... They have all values, and game values to help with a good break down... Let me know if you have some ideas to approach this.. I think I have covered a good portion of my references... On top of that SpaceBattles.com has a lot of info in this regards, but the hardest info to find are the ones from the creators themselves... However, with time and patients come good things! The same should be possible here! Have fun!


That isn't really a good way to go about it. Fluff > in-game, so take each weapon yield from the fluff. Extrapolate capital ship weapons and bombs from the Harbinger yield of 5 gigatons.

A photon torpedo is around 3 megatons according to some calcs, with a quantum torpedo being twice as powerful. The WhiteStar's firepower has been pegged at about 220 kilotons per second. The nukes that blew up the Sharlin in the Earth-Minbari War were 2 megatons. An Acclamator transport's heavy turbolasers are rated at 200 gigatons per shot, and an ISD, being (a) a real warship and (b) a lot bigger, is presumed to be considerably more powerful The Slave-1, which is pretty much a firepower, has laser cannons with yields of 2 kilotons per shot, 190-megaton missiles, and seismic charges rated in the gigaton range. Things are not looking good for the crestheads.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 15, 2005, 07:26:06 pm
Quote
Many official (non-canon) sources state that a single ISD has sufficient firepower to reduce the surface of a planet to "slag".


Hahaha.

You were saying? Something about base zero something-or-other?

Quote
Note that the asteroid this large-sized TL bolt has just hit is melting (and subsequently vaporised), and the TL bolt passed through, retaining its original shape, continuing on its original course.


FS FIGHTERS pack enough punch to vaporize asteroids. Whoo. They can also withstand plenty of said shots directly impacting their hull.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 15, 2005, 07:31:55 pm
Quote
Also, the Empire has over 20,000 Star Destroyers and an incalculable number of other capital ships. Plus, there are those 200 gigaton turbolasers. One shot is as powerful as four BFReds firing at once


umm...riiight.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 15, 2005, 09:05:03 pm
BTW, those gigaton measurements are absolute bull****, IIRC.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 15, 2005, 11:54:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool

That isn't really a good way to go about it. Fluff > in-game, so take each weapon yield from the fluff. Extrapolate capital ship weapons and bombs from the Harbinger yield of 5 gigatons.


*cough* Read that again. That's the yield of two  Harbingers.

Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
A photon torpedo is around 3 megatons according to some calcs, with a quantum torpedo being twice as powerful.


Says who? Have they actually been fired at a target where we could judge?

Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
An Acclamator transport's heavy turbolasers are rated at 200 gigatons per shot, and an ISD, being (a) a real warship and (b) a lot bigger, is presumed to be considerably more powerful.


First, what the HELL is an Acclamator transport? Being the proud owner of most Star Wars novels, the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, all the X-Wing series of games, and a bunch more stuff, I have never heard of such a ship. And it's misspelled to boot.

Second, that doesn't hold up. Orbital turbolaser bombardment is not destructive enough for that. The demonstration bombardment by the Chimera in Dark Force Rising, for example, was directed at an area outside a Noghri village. The buildings were made of wood. The Chimera presumably fired all batteries that could bear, certainly not a single shot. Yet by your standards a hit by a single shot anywhere within fifty miles should have caused the village to at least burst into flame. It didn't. Information assembled from other novels indicates that a Star Destroyer could, in theory, slag a good-size city with a thirty-minute bombardment. A whole planet, though? That would take weeks, maybe months. A Star Destroyer is capable of knocking an undefended or lightly defend planet back into the Stone Age within a few days, but total destruction is absurd.

Another example: The Super Star Destroyer Iron Fist's bombardment of the Alliance base on Noquivzor. It delievered a forty-five minute bombardment. Noquivzor Base was underground, but not deeply buried. Alliance casualities were high and multiple levels of the base were destroyed, but the hanger complex survived intact. At 200 gigatons a shot, with a forty-five minute bombardment and the number of guns on an SSD, Iron Fist's bombardment should have been the equivalent of the meteor that wasted the dinosaurs. It wasn't. Damage was contained to the base only, and not even all of the base. Clearly turbolasers are considerably less powerful then you state.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Carl on February 16, 2005, 12:34:20 am
Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
A photon torpedo is around 3 megatons according to some calcs


cals made by people who know nothing about antimatter.

it is almost common knowledge by now that one photon torpedo is 64.4 megatons max. (47.7 megatons probable, assuming a 74% reaction is most likely as stated in the tech manual)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 16, 2005, 01:37:21 am
Actually considering if the area in which the antimatter/ matter reaction is in a ideal environment that is actually free of all radiations and other phenomina of that nature in space.... In all actuallity according to real physics and quantom mechanic break down... That will never happen... In all possibilites the full effect would be at best around 55 megatons.... Medium yield would be about 32 megatons (roughly), and nominal would be 15 megatons (roughly)... You have to give way to isotopes, and matter/antimatter break down... All of this comes into effect... I have read all of this from many references... There are a lot of variables to be considered.... Also this is only physical hull effect with minor shield effects (depending on shield strength) according to many references about startrek weaponary.... More on this in full detail when I have all the references to make a 100% break down.... Right now... I am only at 70% of a full break down.... Stay tuned to find out where I am at with the universe chart break down! I will have references and full point break down of each weapon there with references.... This will fully help with many aspects.... The hull effect, sub-system effect, and shield effect will be at most guess work based on novels, and other references on weapon effects.... In the mean time.... The numbers will be very close not perfect, but close! Now.... It would be most helpful if you can take all of this info, and put it into a kilton break down with at least 2 to 4 references from the creators.... That is the tough part.... Now lets have fun with this!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: IPAndrews on February 16, 2005, 03:53:17 am
I see we've moved onto kilotons, megatons, and gigatons now. This brings back memories :)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 05:56:59 am
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r


*cough* Read that again. That's the yield of two  Harbingers.



Says who? Have they actually been fired at a target where we could judge?



First, what the HELL is an Acclamator transport? Being the proud owner of most Star Wars novels, the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, all the X-Wing series of games, and a bunch more stuff, I have never heard of such a ship. And it's misspelled to boot.

Second, that doesn't hold up. Orbital turbolaser bombardment is not destructive enough for that. The demonstration bombardment by the Chimera in Dark Force Rising, for example, was directed at an area outside a Noghri village. The buildings were made of wood. The Chimera presumably fired all batteries that could bear, certainly not a single shot. Yet by your standards a hit by a single shot anywhere within fifty miles should have caused the village to at least burst into flame. It didn't. Information assembled from other novels indicates that a Star Destroyer could, in theory, slag a good-size city with a thirty-minute bombardment. A whole planet, though? That would take weeks, maybe months. A Star Destroyer is capable of knocking an undefended or lightly defend planet back into the Stone Age within a few days, but total destruction is absurd.

Another example: The Super Star Destroyer Iron Fist's bombardment of the Alliance base on Noquivzor. It delievered a forty-five minute bombardment. Noquivzor Base was underground, but not deeply buried. Alliance casualities were high and multiple levels of the base were destroyed, but the hanger complex survived intact. At 200 gigatons a shot, with a forty-five minute bombardment and the number of guns on an SSD, Iron Fist's bombardment should have been the equivalent of the meteor that wasted the dinosaurs. It wasn't. Damage was contained to the base only, and not even all of the base. Clearly turbolasers are considerably less powerful then you state.


Actually, get this: I remember hearing him (or someone) say the heavy turbolasers fire 800 Gigaton burst every second.

Doesn't get more bull**** than that. With that level of firepower, the Death Star itself would be completely superfluous.

Stardestroyer.net is, IMO, ludicrous.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 16, 2005, 09:32:38 am
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


Actually, get this: I remember hearing him (or someone) say the heavy turbolasers fire 800 Gigaton burst every second.


Christ...who the hell said that? Now they're even ignoring the movies. Heavy turbolasers fire once once every five-to-seven seconds...
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Singh on February 16, 2005, 09:47:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool


Do you know what a Base Delta Zero is? It is much worse than what the Lucifer did to Vasuda Prime. In a BDZ, there are no survivors, unlike the Vasuda Prime bombardment. A single Star Destroyer can carry out a Base Delta Zero in a matter of hours.

Also, the Empire has over 20,000 Star Destroyers and an incalculable number of other capital ships. Plus, there are those 200 gigaton turbolasers. One shot is as powerful as four BFReds firing at once.

The Empire would rip the Shivans a new one. The Shivans ripped the FS1 GTA a new one. The FS1 GTA would rip the Centauri a whole bunch of new ones.  Do you get the picture now?


Actually, the Shivans would get their asses kicked the first, and then second time around.

Then they'd build the Gargant, and beat the SW back for a while, before it, too is overwelhmed.

Then they'd build somethng bigger and get back at the Imperial fleet.

One thing you gotta love about Shivans....they always seem to come back with something bigger :D
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Carl on February 16, 2005, 12:20:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by stithe2000
Actually considering if the area in which the antimatter/ matter reaction is in a ideal environment that is actually free of all radiations and other phenomina of that nature in space.... In all actuallity according to real physics and quantom mechanic break down... That will never happen... In all possibilites the full effect would be at best around 55 megatons.... Medium yield would be about 32 megatons (roughly), and nominal would be 15 megatons (roughly)... You have to give way to isotopes, and matter/antimatter break down... All of this comes into effect... I have read all of this from many references... There are a lot of variables to be considered.... Also this is only physical hull effect with minor shield effects (depending on shield strength) according to many references about startrek weaponary....


i think the 74% figure factors in all the break down and radiation stuff. the inside of a photon torpedo is gonna be the most ideal environment you can think of. anything that keeps LIVE antimatter inside of it while being stored on a ship is gonna be sealed like fort knox to the 4th power.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 16, 2005, 01:05:10 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Singh


Actually, the Shivans would get their asses kicked the first, and then second time around.

Then they'd build the Gargant, and beat the SW back for a while, before it, too is overwelhmed.

Then they'd build somethng bigger and get back at the Imperial fleet.

One thing you gotta love about Shivans....they always seem to come back with something bigger :D


They're going to need a huge technology advance to counter the Imperials' much faster FTL (same-day travel across the ENTIRE GALAXY), shielded caps (don't even bother using bombers), much more potent weaponry, etc.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 16, 2005, 01:55:39 pm
Let me summarize for you:

Weaponry point: refuted.
Shields point: Beam cannon bypass shields.
FTL travel: What the hell have you been smoking to give that kind of figure?
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 02:04:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool


They're going to need a huge technology advance to counter the Imperials' much faster FTL (same-day travel across the ENTIRE GALAXY), shielded caps (don't even bother using bombers), much more potent weaponry, etc.


When you have bombs in the 100's of megatons range, shields Capship shields might become a bit...overrated. I doubt even the Lucifer shields could withstand multiple helios warheads.

And I'm telling you, those weapon figures are absolute BULL.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Col. Fishguts on February 16, 2005, 03:47:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
FTL travel: What the hell have you been smoking to give that kind of figure?


The Thrawn trilogy books give some accurate numbers about FTL speed, and they're widely accepted as canon.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 16, 2005, 03:56:41 pm
TPM indicates same-day travel at least halfway across the galaxy as the Sith Infiltrator took off from Coruscant in the deep core and landed on Tatooine in the Outer Rim during the same day. My memory of TPM is hazy, but IIRC the Infiltrator took off during Tatooine's daytime and landed in the daytime, which indicates a travel time of no more than 12 hours or so.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Cyber Phoenix on February 16, 2005, 04:17:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Let me summarize for you:

Weaponry point: refuted.


ICS is cannon and nothing on the movies contradicts it.

Quote
Shields point: Beam cannon bypass shields.


Beam cannons ignore Freespace shields. Prove it that they can bypass SW shields that work on entirely different principles.

Quote
FTL travel: What the hell have you been smoking to give that kind of figure?


Watch the movies. Travelling half of the galaxy on a single day in TMP. The other movies also provide evidence.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 16, 2005, 04:39:40 pm
I think he's also pointing out that Shadow beams bypass Minbari pseudo-shields, but this is as invalid as the FS argument because SW shields are not the same as Minbari defense systems and should not be presumed as being the same.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 04:45:19 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Cyber Phoenix


ICS is cannon and nothing on the movies contradicts it.



Beam cannons ignore Freespace shields. Prove it that they can bypass SW shields that work on entirely different principles.



Watch the movies. Travelling half of the galaxy on a single day in TMP. The other movies also provide evidence.


ICS is baseless, IMPOSSIBLE HORSE****. It's contradicted at EVERY POINT IN THE MOVIES. Whenever a turbolaser is fired, it's contradicted. Whenever a SD is shown moving through space, it's contradicted. Whenever a FIGHTER lands a hit, it's contradicted.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Cyber Phoenix on February 16, 2005, 04:59:11 pm
Quote
ICS is baseless, IMPOSSIBLE HORSE****


Really?!:rolleyes:  Care to say why it is -baseless, IMPOSSIBLE HORSE****- and -It's contradicted at EVERY POINT IN THE MOVIES- despite lucas saying it is cannon?

Quote
Whenever a turbolaser is fired, it's contradicted. Whenever a SD is shown moving through space, it's contradicted. Whenever a FIGHTER lands a hit, it's contradicted.


Again I ask, why is it contradictied? Give me just one example please.
With all the contradictions you know it must be easy to provide a single example.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 05:02:29 pm
According to the figures I've heard from this ICS, the Turbolasers are 200-800 Gigaton weapons.

Is that good enough for you?
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 16, 2005, 05:17:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


ICS is baseless, IMPOSSIBLE HORSE****. It's contradicted at EVERY POINT IN THE MOVIES. Whenever a turbolaser is fired, it's contradicted. Whenever a SD is shown moving through space, it's contradicted. Whenever a FIGHTER lands a hit, it's contradicted.


Wrong. ISDs around Hoth destroyed huge asteroids with their LIGHT turbolasers, indicating megaton-level firepower. The heavies were never used on an asteroid of planet in the movies, but ISDs used them to perform Base Delta Zero attacks several times in the EU (which is canon unless it says something explicitly contradicted by ICS, the movies, or the novelizations), and analysis of the Slave-1 battle scene in Ep2 confirms the 2-kiloton figure for fighter laser cannons, thanks to asteroids being vaporized by Slave-1's guns. Also, the first Death Star moving around Yavin in a matter of minutes in Ep4 indicates very high velocities.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Cyber Phoenix on February 16, 2005, 05:17:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
According to the figures I've heard from this ICS, the Turbolasers are 200-800 Gigaton weapons.

Is that good enough for you?


No.

You can't simply say that they are bull**** just because you don't like them. Either backup your claims or say nothing at all.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 16, 2005, 05:21:49 pm
Wow IP... No kidding!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 05:26:16 pm
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,30607.0.html

Read this thread, Cyber.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 16, 2005, 05:33:37 pm
-snip due to reply to wrong post-
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Cyber Phoenix on February 16, 2005, 05:51:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,30607.0.html

Read this thread, Cyber.


I've read it.
And you still haven't answered my question.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 05:56:43 pm
Then you are evidently illiterate, or you didn't read the points brought up.

It's obvious, using even a little bit of common sense, that there is no ****ing way the Turbolasers are even 100 Gigatons, let alone 800.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 16, 2005, 06:06:19 pm
If the canon gods say 200 gigatons, 200 gigatons it will be. Lucasfilm > you on the canon scale. Before you scream "SCREW CANON!" you should realize that a defined canon is the ONLY way to carry out versus debates. Most prominent universes have canon policies, ranging from strict ones like that of Star Trek (Gene Roddenberry said "It's not Star Trek until I say it's Star Trek!") to relaxed ones like the SW policy to the almost useless, like that of 40k ("The Black Library books are canon...sort of, and the Imperial Armour books are canon...sometimes" is the general attitude).
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Cyber Phoenix on February 16, 2005, 06:03:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Then you are evidently illiterate, or you didn't read the points brought up.

It's obvious, using even a little bit of common sense, that there is no ****ing way the Turbolasers are even 100 Gigatons, let alone 800.


There is one thing called suspencion of disbelief, look it up you will understand more.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 06:17:24 pm
This is the problem with carrying out a debate against everyone at the same time Woolie Wool. You mix up positions. I don't give a rat's ass about who would kick who's ass, in all honesty. What I don't condone are fanboy's who try to justify absolutely IMPOSSIBLE scenarios and stats with "So and so says it's true."

Read my sig, for a clearer explanation.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 16, 2005, 06:27:52 pm
But if Lucas "S3Z S0", than you can't disagree because he's the God of Star Wars. If JMS makes 2MT nukes blow up a Sharlin, then the nukes blow up the Sharlin. If Gene Roddenberry phasers make people disappear, violating the First Law of Thermodynamics, then they make people disappear. If Volition decides that Shivans are actually fluffy pink bunnies in costumes, then so it will be. Hiding from the truth won't get rid of it. The truth is that a single shot from an outdated SW heavy transport is 100,000 times as powerful as a nuke that destroyed a Sharlin warcruiser.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 06:29:50 pm
Like I give a ****. (how many times have I said that, now?)

I don't care about those others, I'm talking about SW.
If Lucas says something that Is total bull, than it doesn't matter if he made the show, it's still bull, PARTICULARLY IF THE EFFECTS WITNESSED IN THE MOVIES REFUTE THIS STATEMENT.

Note, I don't like Star Trek much anymore, not since I started learning basic Science.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: StratComm on February 16, 2005, 08:29:30 pm
God, is this debate really going on in two forums at once?  Disgraceful guys.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on February 16, 2005, 08:47:34 pm
Aw, it's ok. I saved you some room in the thread, too. ;)
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: StratComm on February 16, 2005, 08:52:11 pm
Ah I'm going to pass this one up.  Woolie has shown to be a complete fanboy twit and won't listen to simple reason, and I've made my points.  Something about "Lucas says it's canon" just grates against me since Lucas probably used about 3 minutes and 2% of the contents to make that decision.  Ultimately though, and I will continue to stand by this, inter-universe comparisons are a complete waste of time; there's a different baseline and the two just don't overlap.  If you're forcing a baseline, then you've got to step off of canon completely and go with what you can see for yourself.  Which is precisely nothing of value.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 16, 2005, 09:53:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Cyber Phoenix

ICS is cannon and nothing on the movies contradicts it.


To rephrase an earlier post, based upon a shot in the original version A New Hope showing the gun galleries of the Death Star, a heavy turbolaser is the same size or smaller then the chin guns of an AT-AT walker. AT-ATs are not putting out anywhere near the amount of firepower you state.

Owned. Next please.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: StratComm on February 16, 2005, 10:04:32 pm
ngtm1r: same topic, same poster, same thread.  The fact that the whole thing has already been double-posted here and in Freespace Modding is already unfair to the TBP staff; lets leave them be.  Woolie, when you inevitably read this, take the hint.  Argue this in ONE THREAD, preferably not this one.  As much as I hate to say it, this one needs locking.

*is seriously dissapointed in everyone involved, particularly Woolie*
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 17, 2005, 01:26:18 am
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
God, is this debate really going on in two forums at once?  Disgraceful guys.
My thoughts exactly!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Cyber Phoenix on February 17, 2005, 01:57:11 am
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r


To rephrase an earlier post, based upon a shot in the original version A New Hope showing the gun galleries of the Death Star, a heavy turbolaser is the same size or smaller then the chin guns of an AT-AT walker. AT-ATs are not putting out anywhere near the amount of firepower you state.

Owned. Next please.


Wrong. Those are not heavy turbolasers

These are

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd09.jpg
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd23.jpg
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 17, 2005, 03:38:09 am
That must be the original models for the movies...
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Azrael15 on February 17, 2005, 05:46:02 am
Damnit, Woolie Wool. It's a game. A mod for a game.

What do you say about the Spacebattles movies? Do you go 'OMGZ!?! WHY DID TEH VORLON DREADNAUGHT TAKE OUT THE ISD WITH IT's 200GIGATONAS!!!' ? :rolleyes:

Kindly, take your ICS, take your stupidity and shove it. If the mod maker wants to make a Primus superior to an ISD, then it is. But it does not change ANYTHING.

Goddamn...

If he wants to make Starfuries vape TIEs in one shot? Does it change the ridiculousness of the ICS?

You, as you have always been, are a damned nitpicking fool. And don't even think of mentioning your wank Starforce, christ, we hear enough about that on Spacebattles. Did I mention Woolie likes to nitpick? :ha:
-

I wouldn't mind seeing an B5 v FS2 mod, Omegas duking it out with Fenris' and Orions... *drool* But, IIRC, tables only have limited space for ships? Would be nice to see, though.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 17, 2005, 06:18:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Azrael15

I wouldn't mind seeing an B5 v FS2 mod, Omegas duking it out with Fenris' and Orions... *drool* But, IIRC, tables only have limited space for ships? Would be nice to see, though.


Table limits can be bumped. The INF build, for example.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: -Norbert- on February 17, 2005, 08:19:50 am
I don't understand why anyone would bother discussing about Star Wars Weaponary anyway.
Geroge Lucas wrote Star Wars to be an action movie, not an scientific presentation.

I don't think he thought about how those weapons correspond to reality. And to be honest who cares, as long as the balance between the different parties within Star Wars is a good one.

And for crossovers it doesn't matter to me too if whats in the mod is cannon or not.
It should be fun to play. And (at least in my opinion) that means roughly equally strong parties (or if it's made in a way that doesn't compromise the fun while playing few strong against many weaker ships. But thats far more difficult to archieve than making the parties equally strong).

And to the discussion about speed I wanted to throw in a quote from JMS which is surely true for Lucas too:
"A ship travels at the speed of plot."
I don't remember how exactly he explained it, but it's was very near to the following lines:
If a starfury is supposed to be at babylon 5 in time he will be, no matter if he has to fly from Earth to B5 in 10 minutes and if he is supposed to miss an event, he will miss it, no matter if he is 5 meter or 5 lightyears away.

If the Deathstar needs 5 days to get around Yavin, then the thrill would have been taken out.
And if that's not enough of an argument:
If the Rebels could detect the Star Destroyers through Hyperspace within the Asteroid Field of Hoth when they stated that they can hardly detect anything at all there, then why have they detected the gargantuan deathstar, which has a magnetic shield that prevents anything bigger than the Falcon to go near it, that should make it a into a beakon for all sensors, just when it already was far into the star system?

With this I just want to tell tose fanatics out there: Don't take it too serios! It's just films and books. No need to get an heart attack about it.
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 17, 2005, 06:09:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Azrael15
I wouldn't mind seeing an B5 v FS2 mod, Omegas duking it out with Fenris' and Orions... *drool* But, IIRC, tables only have limited space for ships? Would be nice to see, though. [/B]


How did you know I already had that stuff in???? Or what I was doing next :D
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: IPAndrews on February 18, 2005, 04:39:29 am
Good incentive to fix those geometry bugs in B5 then Stithe. [cough]
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Azrael15 on February 18, 2005, 05:30:00 am
There's already a mod that can do that?! Awesome!

Can you outline what it has? I'm assuming all FS2 vessels, all B5R3 vessels plus weapons and etc?
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: stithe2000 on February 18, 2005, 05:27:28 pm
Asked for picture references... Plus need to get up with you for the new ftp access... I have the old access, and unable to get on... Will talk to you when I catch you online!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Azrael15 on February 18, 2005, 08:13:33 pm
Since Woolie is not going to try to, hah!, refute my points...

Concession Accepted.
Title: Ending the flame war...
Post by: stithe2000 on February 20, 2005, 11:48:41 am
1st: I have asked for 2 or more solid references that can be exploited, and averaged out to help with balancing the mod out.... No one has done that yet....

2nd: On my own research by use of the library, the internet, and games... I have found that almost none of the references have a solid 100% bonifide kiloton potential.... All the references has, could, possibly, perhaps, and in theory... The only solid info that I have seen are in the games (the ones from the creators).... That is what I am using to break down my info....

3rd: I am doing this for several reasons.... 1) I love all the sci-fi fantasy stuff, for it is fun! 2) I am apart of of TBP, SWC, and BSG... The SWC project is hurting.... Where as the B5 team is not, and they are doing well... I am creating a bridge here to help the SWC team get back on their feet... Plus I figured what the hell, why not?

4th: Come back to this tiny little world known as Earth.... In the present preferably.... This is just a game, and all concepts of sci-fi fantasy was an attempt to inspire the "what if" concept.... We do not live in those worlds... We live here, and we seem to have forgotten how to just have fun, and enjoy what is in front of you.... Most of us here are adults with careers and such.... We deal with bickering, and petty arguements every moment of the day... We come here, or grab these sci-fi concepts as a means of escape.... Toi enjoy the what if ideas of others.... Why destroy that by bringing what irritates us in real life in here?

Lastly: I appreciate all of your views, but arguing does nothing.... If you wish to help then help... You know your talents, and obviously you like these concepts.... Help out, or be quiet... Now lets have fun! PEACE!
Title: Universes Chaos Mission 1
Post by: Fury on February 20, 2005, 01:12:08 pm
I didn't pay much attention to this thread. My mistake. There's absolutely no need to create same thread over four different forums. Just one is enough, and that one is located in the FreeSpace Modding forum.

This is closed.