Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gank on February 15, 2005, 04:40:24 pm
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Seen anon on about this before but didnt exactly realise just how dubious the whole evidence supporting this is:
http://vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html
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People who think the holocaust never happened should be shot. no questioning, nothing. Just shot. I personally know people who escaped from that place and got the marks to prove it.
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Well, questioning it is not a shootable offence ;) It may even, upon further investigation prove that the evidence is wrong and the Holocaust was indeed as terrible as it was thought.
Not questioning it, accepting anything without question is a dangerous course ;)
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Originally posted by Dark_4ce
People who think the holocaust never happened should be shot. no questioning, nothing. Just shot. I personally know people who escaped from that place and got the marks to prove it.
From what place? And you say this guy should be shot, did you watch the video before you decided that? Because hes not actually saying it didnt happen. personally I think people who make kneejerk reactions and call for other people to be shot based on faulty perceptions should be shot themselves. Look:
It is an undisputed fact of history that, during World War II, the Germans ran a network of prison and labor camps, both in Germany and in the territories they controlled. Into these camps were sent Jews, prisoners-of-war, resistance fighters, Gypsies, and other people considered enemies of the Third Reich.
thats the first paragraph on the page
Meh, knew the first reply would be something like this.
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Thing is, it's like science, if science accepted every truth it discovered we'd have a really screwed up view of the world these days. That's why it's actually healthy to go back and 'Question the Unquestionable' as Gank put it. If for no other reason than to make sure it's still unquestionable.
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HUH? Oh not you too...
*shakes Flipside* "Stop ranting nonsence and get back to the code man!"
;)
The only "Questions" I have are:
1.) Is it done yet?
2.) Will it run on my system?
3.) What's so bad about cloaking? (that word makes Freelancers FREAK!)
LOL!
Oh yeah, the holocost happened, deal with it...
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LOL I don't code, I only pretend to :p
As for your questions :-
1 : No
2 : Dunno, if it runs on your system then it will :p
3 : Cloaking is ongoing, but I think the texture system is holding things back :)
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I don't think it didn't happen but.....uhh.....well I have my own theories.
Where's my tinfoil hat?
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We have all heard too many lies from the governments and "free press" in our own short lifetimes that it has become sadly easy to accept that such a thing as the holocaust could have been exaggerated.
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Mkay well if you're all so sure it happened as was said lets see the evidence.
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Here's one.
(http://www.holocaust-history.org/hungarian-photos/jpg/12-1141.jpg)
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My friends dad escaped from Auschwitz. TWICE! He has the tattoo. He has scars. He saw his whole family killed. I doubt he'd make that up or exagarate it.
Questioning isn't a shooting offense. Going out of your way to blatantly disprove a historical event that is perhaps one of the most and well documented, is.
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Countless eyewitness accounts, hundreds of thousands of families torn apart, millions dead. This we know. How can you question that?
Fine, perhaps some little facts are distorted. But how can you dispute the major claims?
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Look, it's like Galileo saying the Earth goes round the Sun, until that point the Earth was the centre of the universe, sometimes someone does have to go against the 'accepted' and be derised for it.
Whether right or wrong, it is still fair for people the question the 'inconsistencies' provided by the link at the top of the thread. If we don't then we are falling victim to over-complacency in our own knowledge of Modern History (which has been proved to be wrong time and time again).
I'm not saying it didn't happen, and I'm not saying that even if it happened on a smaller scale than thought that it wasn't a terrible thing, but read the article at the top with an open mind, even if you accept the Holocaust without question, you should still 'like' to know the answers to the question raised, just to have the complete story.
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Bloody hell...they are arguing the numbers of people exterminated like there's two alternating levels of crimes taking place depending on the number. Here's all the proof that I need:
1) There was mass discrimination and social darwinism present in the Nazi regime. There's libraries full of that evidence. If you were "aryan" then you were ok, if you were anything else (jewish being the biggest group but there were others) then you were an enemy to be destroyed (that included the Slavs/Russians).
2) People were hearded into concentration camps and executed.
I've seen, read, written on, and gotten enough information to satisfy both points. The numbers in the thousands of people who were killed is not the sticking point...its a statistic that frankly is second place to the enourmous human tragedy.
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I think we react far too hysterically to the events of WW2. More people die in the middle east from poverty we impose upon them every year than died in the holocaust, yet we are afraid to risk someone holding an opinion that these are somehow equal.
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*is to lazy to read the article in whole so he just downloads it*
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The fact that the Holocaust even happened is an attrocity, not only for the purpous that it was carried out but also for the sheer number of people killed ruthlessly. I visited a Holocaust Museum and got to hear one of the speakers break down about how almost all of his friends were killed and how he almost died while in the camp. It's a terrible thing, and we have enough pictures, footage, writings, and eye wittness accounts to justify it happened and that it happened on a large scale. Anyone trying to hash the event as "nothing too serious" has their head very far up their ass.
Why is it that people have lately been trying to discredit or hash history? It's like saying this:
"D-Day occured, but not on the scale or the courageous front the Allies had in store. Since there was nothing writen down, we have to say that the Allied attack was probably sucessful because of the massive stores of Panda Bears on the D-Day warships. These Pandas dodged MG-42 fire and reached the Nazi's while still in their bunkers. The Pandas wreaked Havoc. Since, and I say again, there were no writings of the offensive or any "major" evidence (I am being so ****ing stupid at this point) then we are forced to believe the Pandas won the day, and the Allies were merely caught in the crossfire."
Let's make a documentary!
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Look... I cannot give an open mind to an article and video that was created by a closed and biased mind. Its like a doctor going to find proof of his own theory and ignoring anything that might disprove it. But in reverse. I pritty much put this akin to the "We didn't land on the moon" group. I mean come on. This isn't really someone trying push forward the way of science like Gallileo. This is just another conspiracy nut.
There is proof if you look for it. If you ignore it...
All I'm saying is, somethings don't need to be disproved. Having an open mind about everything is impossible. I'm a VERY open minded person and ready to give everything a looksie. Hell, I even believe in time travel. But what he's trying to do is equal to disproving water is wet.
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That's the whole point Tin, are they trying to discredit it or prove it? Simply because people believe it is the truth, it doesn't always follow that it is the truth. The victors write History every time, and they always demonise the enemy. What is so scary about people questioning this that people have to run a mile or go up in flames the moment it is mentioned, are we genuinely that afraid that we might be wrong?
BTW I didn't get the Pandas thing in the slightest, it's nothing to do with the contents of the article ;)
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Well, firstly the Einsatzgruppen recorded detailed records of mass killings of jews on the battlefield in 1941-42, sending detailed records to various officials and SS officers, etc. A commander of one of these units testified that they killed 90,000 jews alone.
Rudolf Hoss, commander of Birkenau, wrote in his memoirs (written in Polish captivity after the war; he was also tortured, which is also written in his memoirs) that an order "all Jews without exception are to be destroyed." was received in 1941, and also mentions the gas chambers. Supporting eyewitness evidence also comes from SS guards and physicians acting at the camp.
Interestingly, Hoss mentions that Block 11 at Auschwitz - the preserved one - was abandoned early on as a gassing venue. The crematorium is mentioned in that article - what isn;t mentioned is that hydrocyanic acid traces were found in there by a study (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/). Said study compares the concentration of hydrocyanic acid in deloused blocs to the gas chambers.
With regards to the swimming pool at Auschwitz, AFAIK there isn't any evidence it was used by the inmates rather then the SS (the SS already played football on weekends in a ground behind the 2nd crematorium). Certainly (http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1386319,00.html) it had facilities for the guards to enjoy.
Of the aerial photos... a quick search revealed this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/aerial_recon_gallery_05.shtml) of a burning pit (for bodies)
With regards to use of the crematoria, there is a lot of support evidence for their gassing use; a written letter (from Jan 1943, from SS Captain Bischoff, head of the Auschwitz Central Construction Management to Berlin) makes specific use of the German for 'gas chamber' with regards to Crematoria 2. Orders also were made for 'gas tight' door and window seals (or record), and a work order specifically (again) refers to the chamber as a 'gas chamber'. The chambers were also unsuitable as air raid shelters - too small for the inmates, and over a kilometer from the guard huts. (there were also already 1/2 man air raid shelters dotted around the place, some of which still stand). Also, the glass in the window of the crematoria was protected against being broken from the inside.
(obviously, there is testimony explicitly referring towards the use of Zyklon B from camp soldiers; Hans Stark, for example)
Furthermore, there are documents from civillian contractors referring to heating up the gas chambers - if this was a morgue as some claim, it would be a very bad thing to do. Good, however, for speeding up the vapourisation of Zyklon B (which was chucked in as solid state).
There are also documents which refer to Auschwitz' incineration rate being boosted to 120,000 bodies a month; if this was (for example) due to a typhus epidemic, it would mean 4/5ths of the camps projected population (150,000) would have to die and be replaced each month.
EDIT; took ages to find this
EDIT2; IIRC Auschwitz was originally built as a prisoner of war, then concentration/forced labour and finally execution camp; it wasn't originally designed for what it's famous for, hence why it's singled out as evidence 'against' because of incongrous design.
EDIT3; shifted to bottom; there's also other stuff about specific addition of gas proof seals on the crematoria and a paper which positively identified the gas holes there, but I couldn't be bothered typing the specifics.
EDIT4; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki Witold Pilecki, volunteered to go to Auschwitz to organise resistance, escaped to try and convice the Allies to send help in person. Claimed "During the first 3 years, at Auschwitz there perished 2 million people; in the next 2 years—3 million".
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No it doesn't, but it's an example that could follow. Since there was no "major" evidence stated in the article of the holocaust (they obviously are ignorant people) then my idea was that since there was no "major" evidence of D-Day's success, then we don't know if the Allied attack involved cuddly Pandas or Grizzly Bears. Maybe both. RIchard Simons also made a guest appearance.
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I think thats his point Flip. :)
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What he said.
Him.
Down there.
I dont get how my post wound up over his.
V V V V
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Its pretty obvious none of you have even read the ****ing article.
BD explain exactly how that picture disproves what the guy is saying, you might want to actually read what he is saying first. it actually proves what hes saying depending on whether not thats actually a picture from auschwitz or not.
Dark_4ace, you say you know this guy, ask him how many people he seen gassed, where and when. Btw, escaped twice, thats some achievement, mind sharing his name? bound to be some way to add some authenticity to what you're saying seeing as only 5-600 prisioners ever escaped and very few of them would have survived recapture, probably hes quite well known.
Corsair, read the article please.
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good ****ing man Aldo, somebody actually read it before they started talking ****e.
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Indeed, as I said before, I'm not saying it didn't happen, what I'm saying is that accepting anything without question is unhealthy ;)
Good evidence there Aldo, I've read the contents of Hoess's diary as well, it is very incriminating. My own personal feeling is that it DID happen and it was as terrible as said, if not more so. But it's still an interesting article, and it does raise a few questions on our knowledge of how Auschwitz worked etc if nothing else.
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Originally posted by Gank
Dark_4ace, you say you know this guy, ask him how many people he seen gassed, where and when. Btw, escaped twice, thats some achievement, mind sharing his name? bound to be some way to add some authenticity to what you're saying seeing as only 5-600 prisioners ever escaped and very few of them would have survived recapture, probably hes quite well known.
Well... His name is Meyer Frank. Want his security number he has tattooed on his arm too? no, he hasn't seen any gassings, because he wasn't in the gas chamber to witness it. Why? HE ESCAPED. And yes. twice. Actually 3 times, if you count an early escape from the march of death, when they took him out of the ghetto. During witch he saw quite a few very healthy people shot in the head for no apparent reason. As well as two young children being killed infront of their mother, before she got shot as well.
And yes, it was quite an achievement. And the only reason he survived was that after he was captured again, he was tattooed. But they didn't know he had escaped before. He managed to escape and hide in a farm yeard by some friendly farmers who hid him in the hay loft.
Ever hear of this one, "just because you can't see it, doesent mean it doesent exist?"
Look. I'm not looking for an argument here. I just know for a fact that it exists. Other people of course have a right to their own oppinions. This just happens to be a touchy subject for me.
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Has anyone ever see Night and Fog (Nuit et Brouillard)? It contains footage taken by the nazi's... I believe noone who has seen it could possibly quibble over numbers, whether it actually happened, etc. It was horrific, beyond description. The mind doesn't want to comprehend what the eyes are seeing.
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Aye well seeing how the article was disputing the claims of mass gassings then your friends dads testimonys are of very little use to us. This is why I was pissed at you, because you didnt read the article and started shooting off about denying anybody died, which nobody has actually claimed. You seem to think that by questioning any detail of the holocaust means denying anything ever happened, hence the thread title questioning the unquestionable.
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Originally posted by Gank
Aye well seeing how the article was disputing the claims of mass gassings then your friends dads testimonys are of very little use to us. This is why I was pissed at you, because you didnt read the article and started shooting off about denying anybody died, which nobody has actually claimed. You seem to think that by questioning any detail of the holocaust means denying anything ever happened, hence the thread title questioning the unquestionable.
Ok. Look. I didn't mean to piss you off or anything. I read the article. I just don't happen to agree with the over all tone of it. Yes, it disputes facts, but theres always a bigger picture. I just don't agree with what that article was drawing.
And Gank, in no way do I consider you "pro-nazi" or anything of the sort. Hell no! If I came off showing that I did, I apologize. You said nothing to make me think anything ill of you. :yes:
Like I said, I just don't agree with the article.
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The mind over here comprehends all too well - and when you begin to see how the world truly works you stop being shocked.
What happened was horrific, there's no debate on that. But it's just another chapter in a history book we have managed to soak in blood. It's just another slaughter.
Think about that "just another".
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I have no proof, but I severely doubt there has been a single day in human history where people haven't been murdered for being 'Not like us'.
Edit :
It's just a step to the left...
And then a jump to the right...
Let's do the Timewarp Aggaaaaain!
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Originally posted by Flipside
I have no proof, but I severely doubt there has been a single day in human history where people haven't been murdered for being 'Not like us'.
Good point. :yes:
Though I half remember hearing in history class that one of the popes once observed an entire day of peace. I dont remember which one, or even if it was the pope. I just remember hearing something of the sort.
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Sadly that doesn't cover all of humanity.
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Well said, Ice.
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Originally posted by Gank
good ****ing man Aldo, somebody actually read it before they started talking ****e.
I read the article...most of the way down anyways. Still I got bored and annoyed. Simply, they are disputing the numbers and the ways of killing. Which is fine enough except that it reads like one of the holocaust deniers having a field day in what reads like a convincing essay but which is lacking substantively.
And the agenda is quite clear at the beginning...which is why I read it the way I did and why I don't agree with what they are trying to say. Again, its a wolf in sheeps clothing. It reads like an academic article but its not and it lacks the critical analysis. Infact, its critical analysis of everyone else but without anything else to say.
Sorry, not convinced.
Millions died in this fashion, most of them Jewish, because of their genetic background and nothing more. Similarly, although not in the same fashion, thousands or millions of Russians were also killed for the same reason. Nazi germany needed "living space" for the German race and thats the kind of war they were fighting in the east...a war of extermination. War in the west was very different...the British in particular were even considered possible allies and well regarded as potent foes but Hitler had little interest in actually invading Britain despite the motions he went through during the Battle of Britain (and Operation Sea Lion which never materialized).
If you study the history of Germany and Europe in a more complete fashion you get to see the pattern and it, in broad strokes by itself, supports the events of the holocaust. The details are perhaps arguable but the denial that it happened and the reasons for it happening are well documented and historically factual. So you'll excuse me when I doubt the credibility of someone who says as has been said in this article. Its not as extreme or blatant as I've heard...but its getting there.
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With all due respect to IceFire, he didn't say anything spectacular or earth moving. In fact it was nothing more than the traditional: holocaust was terrible, stop questioning to what degree it was such.
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How exactly does it show an agenda? It states a hypothesis, or more a position - and then sets out to show proof that it is a tenable position.
edit: friggin time warp
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i often find it amusing how an article can change a person's mind so completely that it makes them cry about how people shouldn't believe everything that they read. that is most amusing.
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All people write something because of an agenda. No person can write something purely out of logic, as in without their own oppinion. Everything that humans ever wrote is biased. Thats why sadly, history can never be logically explained away, because its all about recording illogical people.
I guess if we boil it all down to the bare root, I can stop for the night by saying, "Truth is in the eye of the beholder". That in the end, its all up to ourselves to make our own minds up about what happens around us.
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Funny, I never even said I agreed with what the man was saying, Let alone said it changed my mind completely.
Originally posted by IceFire
I read the article...most of the way down anyways. Still I got bored and annoyed.
I read what you said...most of the way down anyways. Still I got bored and annoyed.
Anyways you'll have noticed the video was from 1992, in 1997 one robert newman of the jewish defence league put this about;
"He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and deception. Just like a low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads his venom to innocent victims.
This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust denier of the Six Million Jews.
Cole is a young Jewish man with an evil plan: To alter history and to deny documented facts. A revolting and horrible monster is this so-called Jew.
He rubs shoulders with the neo-nazi criminals who do their evil deeds for Adolf Hitler and who, to this day, continue to spread anti-Semitism through the guise of Holocaust revisionist denial.
What is a David Cole? Is it a sickness? Is it a mental disease? Is Cole merely a human parasite who clings to his ardent Nazi supporters and friends who back his ideas whole-heartedly? After all, this Cole mania that the media have played on, don't you think it's time that we flush this rotten, sick individual down the toilet, where the rest of the waste lies? One less David Cole in the world will certainly not end Jew-hatred, but it will have removed a dangerous parasitic, disease-ridden bacteria from infecting society.
David Cole laughs in the face of his own people. He takes pride in seeing Jewish Holocaust survivors suffer. He laughs and snickers when someone mentions the words Auschwitz, gas chambers and crematoriums.
Cole's denial is really a denial toward his own people. He hates the very fact that he was born into this world a Jew. But more than anything else, his denial is an enormous crime against humanity.
This despicable low-life beast is worse than the Julius Streichers and Joseph Goebbels. He is more evil than they were - because he is a Jew! This pathetic excuse for a human being is a neo-Nazi traitorous sell-out to his own Jewish people.
An evil monster like this does not deserve to live on this earth. All the news stories about his life only encourage Cole to feed his sick ego even more, bringing attention to his depraved lifestyle. Cole is an abominable psychopath who must be stopped.
The word revisionist is a direct insult to the Jewish community, to Holocaust survivors and to the memory of the millions murdered. It is especially insulting to us Jews who are out to crush these vicious Holocaust-denying Nazis.
Just as we must get rid of this monster, Cole, we must also get rid of the word "revisionism" from our vocabulary. This awful word and Cole, too, must be eliminated altogether. There is no argument. There needs to be no more debates, only the elimination of the Holocaust deniers.
Cole is a sickness, a horrible aberration that is spreading like a cancerous sore. David Cole is being used by and manipulated by the neo-Nazis to further promote their agendas of hate.
He is a Jewish puppet for the Ernst Zundels, Bradley Smiths, Willis Cartos and all the white supremacist, Nazi-loving, murderous gangster thugs. They would love to see all the Jews of the world gassed and incinerated again in the burning furnaces of Treblinka, leaving smoldering ashes in its wake.
This world would be a happier place, indeed, when all the Jew-baiters and Jew-haters have disappeared, especially the most vicious hater of them all, David Cole.
Reward for Information
JDL wants to know the location of Holocaust denier David Cole, pictured above. Anyone giving us his correct address will receive a monetary reward. Contact us through e-mail immediately if you have information leading to the current location of David Cole.
Or contact us at:
JDL
PO Box 480370
Los Angeles, Ca. 90048
(818)980-8535
NEVER AGAIN!"
In 1998 David Cole issued this statement:
"This statement is given in an attempt to set the record straight about my current views regarding the Holocaust and Holocaust denial. As anyone who follows the subject of the Holocaust denial knows, from 1991 until 1994 I was well known in the movement as a Jewish Holocaust denier (a self-described "revisionist"). For the last three years I have no longer been associated with this movement, having realized that I was wrong and that the path I was taking with my life was self-destructive and hurtful to others. I have spent the last few years in silence on the subject of my time with the denial movement, a silence caused mainly by my shame at what I had done with my life and my desire to distance myself from that life.
However, in that shame-induced silence it has been brought to my attention that I have not gone as far as I should have to make a clear and complete public statement in order to set the record straight as to where I stand.
It is my great hope that this statement accomplishes that task.
I would like to state for the record that there is no question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe's Jews during World War II, the Nazis employed gas chambers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in gas chambers which employed such poison gases as Zyklon B and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is overwhelming and unmistakable.
The Nazis intended to kill all of the Jews of Europe, and the final death toll of this attempted genocide was six million. This atrocity, unique in its scope and breadth, must never be forgotten.
During my four years as a denier, I was wracked with self-hate and loathing, a fact that many of my critics were quick to point out. Indeed, this self hatred was obvious to most, but I was too blind to see it. The hate I had for myself I took out on my people. I was seduced by pseudo historical nonsense and clever-sounding but empty ideas and catch-phrases. When my eyes were finally opened, thanks to several good, kind friends who refused to give up on me even at my worst, I was horrified by what I had done. My instinct was to flee and never look back, but I now understand that I owe it to the people I wronged to make a forceful repudication of my earlier views. I also owe a very large apology, not only to the many people I enraged, and to the family and friends I hurt, but especially to the survivors of the Holocaust, who deserve only our respect and compassion, not re-victimization.
Therefore, to all of the above people, let me offer my most humble and very, very sincere apology. I am sorry for what (I) did, and I am sorry for the hurt I caused.
And just as I must set the record straight concerning my views, it is also incumbent on me to set the record straight regarding the video "documentaries" and media appearances I did from 1991 to 1994. These "documentaries" are merely videotaped garbage filled with self-hatred and pseudo-intellectual nonsense. My "media appearances" were nothing but an embarrassment. My glazed look, specious reasoning, and talking-in-circles during my talk show appearances would have hopefully alerted any astute viewers that this was a man not in touch with reality.
It has been brought to my attention that Bradley Smith is still using one of my videos in advertisements he is running on college campuses. Therefore, I would like to make these additional points: This video is being advertised without my consent, and I denounce this video as being without worth. Bradley Smith is no historian, and denial is no "historical field". Students on college campuses should look elsewhere to find out about the Holocaust. To these students, I would say, look to books like Hilberg's "Destruction of the European Jews", Yahil's "The Holocaust", and Dawidowicz's "War against the Jews" for correct information. If your school library doesn't stock these books, have them order copies. Do not pay any attention to any "David Cole" videos, except to rightly denounce them as frauds.
I am thankful for being given the opportunity to make this statement. This statement is made freely and under no duress, and is quite willingly, even happily given to Mr. Irv Rubin of the Jewish Defence League for the widest possible distribution. This statement is the most current and accurate compilation of my views, and it supersedes an(y) previous writings, videos, or statements. It is my hope that there will be no more confusion as to where I stand. I thank you for letting me set the record straight.
(signed)
David Cole
(notarized)
Guess you can all forget about the video and what it says, hes just another self hating jew.
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Why does the name Salman Rushdie come to mind?
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Originally posted by Gank
Guess you can all forget about the video and what it says,hes just another self hating jew.
Uuhm, dude. Some people mind find that resentful.
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Why does the expression "gotten to" come to mind.
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Well if anyone brings it up I'll just tell them to read his statement and you'll see thats exactly what he calls himself. Btw seems you arent the only one who thinks he should be shot, in good company there mate.
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Originally posted by Gank
Guess you can all forget about the video and what it says, hes just another self hating jew.
So one idiot says something bad about him and you decide he must be correct?
Read Aldo's post again. He's put up the facts. Cole has completely failed to put up anything except a his own revisionist explainations.
He's like the moon hoaxers. The arguments sound good when all presented together without the chance for sensible rebuttal but as soon as you look below the surface they fall apart.
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Problem is, the moment a religion starts getting all heated up about it, rather than treating it with the derision they feel it deserves, they actually serve only to focus the attention on the article and, with comments such as above by Robert Newman, serve only to present themselves as bloodthirsty, insecure maniacs.
Had the total response been 'I hope he's feeling better soon', chances are the theory wouldn't be nearly as well known.
Robert Newman is a fool who helped point this article out to people with a response based in fear and hatred. If anything, Jews should be angry at him for giving them such an image.
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Originally posted by Gank
Well if anyone brings it up I'll just tell them to read his statement and you'll see thats exactly what he calls himself. Btw seems you arent the only one who thinks he should be shot, in good company there mate.
*hands up*
I was just giving a friendly piece of advice. In light of recent events, thats all.
And Flip, you are absolutely correct about Newman. The problem with minorities nowadays is, that it takes just one or two people to label the whole group.
The sad fact about religeon nowadays is that the people in charge are too ready to defend it.
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From here on in I shall avoid this thread as if it were the plague. I wouldn't want to overreact and say something rash.
Just an observation. Maybe it's just me but Gank seems to turn up an awful lot in threads having to do with Israel/the Holocaust/Jews in general.
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Gank likes to discuss touchy subjects ;)
Yeah, if you feel a flame coming on, best to get out :p
Thing is, I personally believe that if you are truly comfortable with your faith, you could happily live in a world of non-believers, problem is the human equation of 'Not like Us' would always get in the way ;)
All Hail the Great Pineapple! Bow down before it's mighty spiky bits! ;)
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Originally posted by karajorma
So one idiot says something bad about him and you decide he must be correct?
Now you're sounding like an idiot Kara. You know what sarcasm is?
Originally posted by karajorma
Read Aldo's post again. He's put up the facts. Cole has completely failed to put up anything except a his own revisionist explainations.
Aldos put up facts, a lot of which have **** all to do with the guys arguement and a few of which are dodgy, and a few of which refute Coles points. You'll also notice he was the only one to even attempt to put up facts, the rest of the thread is all "you cant say this"
Originally posted by karajorma
He's like the moon hoaxers. The arguments sound good when all presented together without the chance for sensible rebuttal but as soon as you look below the surface they fall apart.
Maybe, maybe not, wasnt the point of the thread though. Just for reference though revision of the figures has already brought the number gassed at auschwitz down from 4 to 1 million, this was the number used at most ceremonys on the anniversary. I'm guessing the same "arguements" were thrown at people the first time it was looked at.
Originally posted by Dark_4ce
*hands up*
I was just giving a friendly piece of advice. In light of recent events, thats all.
And Flip, you are absolutely correct about Newman. The problem with minorities nowadays is, that it takes just one or two people to label the whole group.
Recent events like what? As for Newman, you said the same thing he did in your first post, just less colourfully.
Originally posted by Corsair
Just an observation. Maybe it's just me but Gank seems to turn up an awful lot in threads having to do with Israel/the Holocaust/Jews in general.
Good boy Corsair, I was waiting for somebody to start crying anti-semite. let me just make something clear, I dont give a flying **** about jews. Any more than I do about anyone else. Dont hate you dont love you dont really ****ing care. I care about foreign and current affairs, the sort of stuff that will have an effect on my future. i also come from a country that suffered 800 years of whats going on in palestine at the minute, and my mothers been there and has palestinian friends, so no I dont ****ing like Israel. this thing I just came across and thought there were people on here capable of discussing it rationaly, and I actually thought you were one of those people, but now that I think about it werent you the kid who thought he had a right to take the palestinians homeland from them because some guy rolled a quarter at hime in school?
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Originally posted by Gank
Aldos put up facts, a lot of which have **** all to do with the guys arguement and a few of which are dodgy, and a few of which refute Coles points. You'll also notice he was the only one to even attempt to put up facts, the rest of the thread is all "you cant say this"
I didn't add anything because Aldo's points were enough.
The reason why no one is bothering to put up facts is because not only has the man himself stated that he's wrong but in addition to this any idiot can type Holocaust into Wikipedia or some other similar site and get all the facts they need.
Aldo also covered most of the important facts in his post but let me also point out that that the entire film the guy made was filmed in the reconstructed and renovated Auschwitz I camp. The Jews were gassed in Auschwitz II. Auschwitz I is responsible for the deths of Polish intellectuals, russians and gay men.
No mention is made of the fact that the gas chambers in Auschwitz I were closed down in 1942 and then converted into air raid shelters.
So if the guy is claiming that 1 million Jews weren't gassed at Auschwitz I then he's bang on. This isn't a shocking revelation.
Originally posted by Gank
Maybe, maybe not, wasnt the point of the thread though.
Okay. I'll bite. What the f**k was the point of this thread then? You didn't lead with a sensible question about the numbers. You posted a thread which mearly linked to a set of claims so stupid that not even the man who made them would stand by them. What the f**k did you want the thread to be about then?
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Originally posted by karajorma
I didn't add anything because Aldo's points were enough.
I wasnt refering to you, mostly to all the others though you're slotting into the catagory quite nicely.
Originally posted by karajorma
The reason why no one is bothering to put up facts is because not only has the man himself stated that he's wrong but in addition to this any idiot can type Holocaust into Wikipedia or some other similar site and get all the facts they need.
The man stated he was wrong after a letter was circulated making death threats against him. Do you know what duress means?
Originally posted by karajorma
Aldo also covered most of the important facts in his post but let me also point out that that the entire film the guy made was filmed in the reconstructed and renovated Auschwitz I camp. The Jews were gassed in Auschwitz II. Auschwitz I is responsible for the deths of Polish intellectuals, russians and gay men.
So the evidence that Aldo provided saying that they were is wrong then? Well done.
Originally posted by karajorma
No mention is made of the fact that the gas chambers in Auschwitz I were closed down in 1942 and then converted into air raid shelters.
Way to prove you havent read the article.
So if the guy is claiming that 1 million Jews weren't gassed at Auschwitz I then he's bang on. This isn't a shocking revelation.
Yet his claims are stupid? Good man. So basically hes right in what he claims but his arguements are wrong because he wouldnt stand by them?
Originally posted by karajorma
Okay. I'll bite. What the f**k was the point of this thread then? You didn't lead with a sensible question about the numbers. You posted a thread which mearly linked to a set of claims so stupid that not even the man who made them would stand by them. What the f**k did you want the thread to be about then?
The point of this thread is in the thread title. If it went over your head tough ****.
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Originally posted by Gank
Good boy Corsair, I was waiting for somebody to start crying anti-semite. let me just make something clear, I dont give a flying **** about jews. Any more than I do about anyone else. Dont hate you dont love you dont really ****ing care. I care about foreign and current affairs, the sort of stuff that will have an effect on my future. i also come from a country that suffered 800 years of whats going on in palestine at the minute, and my mothers been there and has palestinian friends, so no I dont ****ing like Israel. this thing I just came across and thought there were people on here capable of discussing it rationaly, and I actually thought you were one of those people, but now that I think about it werent you the kid who thought he had a right to take the palestinians homeland from them because some guy rolled a quarter at hime in school?
Gank, buddy, calm down a minute. All I was observing was that you post an awful lot about this. Look, if you don't care about Jews one way or another, that's fine. Even if you do dislike them as a group for whatever reason, you're entitled to your opinion and you're entitled to express your opinion. As far as your dislike for Israel goes, you're perfectly entitled to feel that way and I will SYMPATHIZE with you on certain points. We've had a thousand discussions on this board before about Israel/Palestine/the Intifada and I know what you believe on the matter. I'm fairly torn by the conflict, having friends on BOTH sides. So I sympathize with both.
On Sunday, a friend of mine who lives here in town was doing a fundraiser for an organization we work for. When I got there, he said, "There's somebody here who's really excited to see you." I figured it was a friend from one of the nearby unis who I hadn't seen in a while but instead, it was a Palestinian friend who lives in the Old City part of Jerusalem. I was so happy to see him... I gave him a huge hug after practically jumping across the room. Note, this kid is no moderate by any means. Does he want peace? Yes. However, I've heard things come out of his mouth that have absolutely shocked me... but then I think about why's he's saying it and where he's coming from and I understand his point of view. He has every reason to be mad at Israel and hate Israel - they're screwing up his life. It's going to be impossible for him to go to university in Ramallah, where he wants to go, because the IDF has set up four checkpoints between his house and the university. This is just one person, one story.
On the other hand, I know Israeli kids who are 17 now and are taking their first round of tests before entering the IDF. As one, they're very excited to join the army and have the chance to defend their country. Almost all of them know people who have died in suicide bombings or were killed in the wars before the First Intifada.
There are two sides to every conflict. I'm on both sides of this one.
As far as my comment a few months ago about the quarter incident, yeah, that was me. I tried searching for the original post but I couldn't find it so I don't remember exactly what I said. However, I'll try to remember what it was. The incident happened when I was giving my speech for Student Government, some kid rolled a quarter out to me while I was speaking in front of the whole class. If that wasn't a statement about Jews, I'm not sure what is. Anyway, I believe the point that I had tried to make was that yes, I want there to be Jewish homeland for me to be able to turn to if I ever need it. I never said that it justified taking the Palestinian homeland or what is going on right now in Israel/Palestine. Look, I'd be happy with an Israel in Uganda, although then there would be displaced Ugandans, I suppose, which wouldn't be good either. The current conflict is not just, I think most of us will agree to that.
The Palestinian kid who I mentioned earlier only lives in the Old City part of Jerusalem lives in what is now a very religious, Jewish neighborhood. He told me that before 1948, it was entirely Arab but during the War of Independence (or Al-Naqba if you prefer to call it that), all his neighbors fled. They weren't driven out by the IDF but were told to leave by invading Arab armies who promised that Israel would be destroyed within a few weeks and that they would soon be able to return to their homes. When Israel wound up victorious, they chose not to return. My friend's grandfather decided not to leave and instead stay and protect his house and his young son, my friend's father. So they kept their house but lost their neighbors. This is his story, not mine, and I've attempted to retell it as accurately as possible.
The Holocaust is a touchy point with Jewish people. When you start saying things aren't true about what people claim concerning it, it tends to get Jewish people slightly angry. It leads to a lot of overreaction. So I did not mean to imply that you were being anti-Semetic.
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Originally posted by Gank
The point of this thread is in the thread title. If it went over your head tough ****.
I'm not even bothering to discuss the rest until you explain what the f**k you're trying to achieve/discuss with this topic cause you've failed to make it clear in any way. All you've done is present a badly written, overlong article about someone who went to Auschwitz asked some questions of the people on site and then acted as if the fact that the tour guide didn't know everything is proof of some theory of his.
I managed to get down to the conversation with the tour guide before I got bored of his poorly written drivel. Life's to short to read that kind of **** without any idea of what is to be gained from reading it.
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Can we just say lots of folk died and leave it at that maybe?
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the thing i don't understand is how any of these threads have any bearing on HLP. I thought the motto was "bringing modders together" lately it seems to be "bringing politards together to yell about everything political".
as far as i am concerned if you want to argue politics go find a forum that is about politics, but quit doing your damnedest to keep HLP fighting amongst ourselves. That's all that these threads serve to do. If i am pissing you off, i don't much care. The fact is that this is a forum for modding, and you are constantly bringing bullsh1t into this forum that is fully designed to create arguements. Create Freespace, or do those of us who would prefer to work to work on Freespace a HUGE favor and find a forum built for what you want to do. This is for all of you who constantly want to argue politics. This is a Forum built for Modding, not for Politics. I'll even research and find you the Forums if you are willing to take your bullsh1t there. It's ****ing ridiculous how many of you have decided that forum built around a game that we all love is the place to have your political arguements. For ****'s sake get over yourselves. This kind of idiocy is one reason that some of us are no longer very active.
For the admins:
This kind of bull**** is the reason that alot of senior members are getting sick of HLP.
For the members who don't want to constantly be at war:
Stop letting these idiots bait you.
Yeah i am *****ing at all of you for losing sight of what we originally came here to do, this is game forum, treat it as such or get the **** out as far as i am concerned.
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Well, whilst I do agree that some of these threads are created simply to generate flames, maybe Shrike should change the wording on the HLP General Forums, currently it reads :-
'The core of the HL forums, home to the latest in news and discussion about anything and everything. Now converted by Shrike to a 24-hour nightclub.'
Which does suggest that arguing politics and religion, as long as it's here and not in the Specific Freespace Forums, is tolerated.
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Originally posted by Gank
So the evidence that Aldo provided saying that they were is wrong then? Well done.
Actually, what I posted was regarding the use of gas chambers, not who was in them. I did omit the conversion of Crematorium 1 to an air raid shelter (as this was close enough to SS quarters to use that as such, unlike the others) - but I note that Cole doesn't reference to the infeasibly of the other crematoria being used as such. In fact, I'm not sure he mentions them atall.
So my evidence isn't wrong, it's misinterpreted. I never realised that he never checked the other gas chambers atall, only the one which had been provatively changed. His other statement on it - the only one - regards them as not being hidden from the inmates in Birkenau. Except Birkenau was built for extermination, not labour IIRC, so it didn't matter if the inmates knew as much.
Also, the existence of the gas holes in (IIRC) Crematorium 2 has been confirmed in a study on the remains. Probably worth noting he's mentioned nothing of the documentary orders for the likes of gas-proofing.
Also, his statements on Zyklon B levels in crematoria one have been disproven (linked previously) with explicit comparison to delousing areas.
Really,if I can find disproving evidence in a 5 minute internet search, then it doesn't strike me as an honest appraisal - neither does it strike me as shocking that a tour guide might have a different understanding to a supervisor (after all, it would be likely the guid was hired for temp work there and had less overall knowledge). I think in essence the article is seeking to ignore or dismiss contradictory evidence without mentioning what that evidence actually is.
What I wonder is, how did you end up on that website?
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
the thing i don't understand is how any of these threads have any bearing on HLP. I thought the motto was "bringing modders together" lately it seems to be "bringing politards together to yell about everything political".
I draw issue with this point. It's based on some very shaky ground.
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yeah, it is tolerated, and we can discuss the influx of people recently, and when we stop and think about it, we can point to two reasons for most of them....TBP and INFERNO. So while people are in here having a constant pissing contest two mods are carrying them.
how's this, people need to knock off the bull**** and go to work.
I disagree Blaise, because anymore all i ever see in this place is war about ****. hell most times i don't even bother with Hard Light, and i try to encourage the new guys to stay out of here as well. The thing is, i shouldn't have to.
If the admins won't step and say anything to curb this **** then i will.
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TBP has always and will always be the main gateway to FS2 these days though, Babylon 5 is a lot more well known than Freespace ;)
I think the general idea of the Admins is to create one Forum where we can all be 'us' and then a bunch of Forums where we can all be modders.
I agree with you that the intent of the site is to bring Modders together, but sometimes that has the same result as bring a couple of kilos of plutonium together. We're artists, we are touchy.
If someone turned round in a Freespace Forum and said 'I'm not going to help you because you are/said xxxxxxx' then I would take severe issue with what is said in here :)
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Yeah I agree, this thread has pritty much run its course. Its nothing more than a flame thread now. We should all calm down and just leave this subject at that.
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flip you are right, and some of you guys i think can actually hold an intelligent debate without it becoming a warzone. Funny thing is...you are the guys that i actually see Modding as well. Others? Hell they are just here to keep the place in as big an uproar as they possibly can, and it is obvious.
You should probably take issue with me. No sarcasm at all in that statement. I once stated in the Hosted Projects Support Forum that i no longer did any work on a certain mod because anon was on that staff, and to me he was an embarrassment. I feel that strongly about certain things.
I look at guys like you, Blaise, Kara, Aldo, and i know you guys work as hard as i do. I also know that you can have an intelligent debate. Others? well...do i really need to say it?
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Originally posted by Flipside
TBP has always and will always be the main gateway to FS2 these days though, Babylon 5 is a lot more well known than Freespace ;)
Which is why I think we need to make our own game with the FS engine.......... :D
Not that enough people would help, of course.
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LOL Not at the moment, I'm busy with TI, but once the SCP has reached a stage of 'moderate finishedness', I have....plans. ;)
As for the thing with An0n, well, since An0n is one of those people who loves to press other peoples buttons, and post flame threads just about everywhere, I can actually understand why you were wary of working with him :)
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
I look at guys like you, Blaise, Kara, Aldo, and i know you guys work as hard as i do. I also know that you can have an intelligent debate. Others? well...do i really need to say it?
You know, some of us used to contribute to campaigns and such around here but can't now for whatever reason but still hang around because we like FS2. It's all part of keeping the community alive.
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Well, to be honest, I don't think it's people sitting around and liking FS2 that Shadow is annoyed at ;)
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and the constant warring?
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that is correct. i guess i should do some research into finding some political forums for some of these guys.
and for what it's worth, the one's listed are not the only ones here that i think can debate without anger....and i also said "Others" not "The Others"
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I understood you, no worries. :D
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Shadow, spot on. I've all but stopped even looking in Hard Light for the very reasons you posted earlier. I honestly don't know why I even read through this thread, but I see exactly what you're putting a fuss up over. Thanks for saying something, I second it entirely.
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Yeah, you do have a point, Shadow. Hostile threads do create a hostile atmosphere, and religion and politics are the quickest ways to pressing people's buttons.
I wish more people remembered that we're all posting here on sufferance. I don't know... maybe that would remind people that we all ought to be playing nice.
So, uh, how about a sing-song everyone?
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Originally posted by Blaise Russel
So, uh, how about a sing-song everyone?
We'd probably fight about the song........
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No we wouldn't!
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You take that back!
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I think this one's done now.