Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on February 18, 2005, 05:31:15 am
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Hey guys :) I was hoping one or two of you who agree with the below letter wouldn't mind forwarding it around?
Please, if you don't agree with it, try not to derail the topic.
Thank you!
(Yes, I know some bits may be construed as anti-christian, but I assure you I have nothing against that faith, and if you don't believe me, read our most recent religious thread :))
To see one’s own mistakes, one must first admit them. This is what I truly believe in, and for our nation to overcome the atrocity of our recent past, we must first admit that maybe we didn’t do the right thing. Turn and look, and see what you, the American people, have done. I’m talking to both liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans alike. Yes, even the liberals and Democrats are at fault here. They, like all of America, have turned their back on the glory that once was, and have instead decided to simply yell and scream, pointing accusing fingers at other. Why? I ask you, what does it matter who’s fault it is? All that matters is who will be the first to take a stand and say that this is not right. This is not what our forefathers fought and died for.
They did not fight and die for the United States to invade foreign soil. They did not fight and die for one religion (Christianity) to completely dominate the government. Yes, they were Christian. Yes, they came to North America to freely worship the Christian God. But just because our forefathers were Christian, does not give Christians the right to dictate to other what can and cannot happen! If you are saying that gay marriages should be illegal---why? There is nothing fundamentally wrong with gays marrying. If, perhaps…the Buddhist religion allowed gays to marry…you would be telling two gay men, very much in love, that they could not marry each other, because the Christian faith does not believe in it! That is not what America is! America is free! To be an American is to deserve the wonder of the world, to be an American means to work to stand above petty differences, to work for the good of all, to be part of the greatest nation ever conceived!
Yet we are losing this vision and we are losing this dream! Read what has happened to our liberties, read what our president, whom you, the people, elected, has done to our nation! Weep at the loss, weep for the souls who were sent to their deaths for an unjust war. 9/11 was a horrific event, truly; however, 9/11 was because of Bin Laden, not because of Sadamn Hussein! Now you are allowing our president to send thousands of Americans to their deaths! Deaths at the hands of a people whom we unjustly invaded!
It is not just the President’s fault, either! It is your fault. You elected him into office, you elected your senators into office. They passed the bill with hardly a whimper of protest from the people. The great thing about America is that our citizens have the power to change the world. We are the mightiest nation ever seen, and we have a responsibility as such.
It is not too late. Please, I beg of you, find ways to oppose what is happening right under your noses. Write to your senators, call for impeachments, call for votes of no confidence, do something, anything to prove to the world that we are not cattle being led blindly by the horns, but instead a proud, glorious people capable of moving the world!
- American
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to be an American is to stand tall above your peers, to be part of the greatest nation ever conceived!
I'm sorry, but I take offense in the fact that you think that Americans are better then the rest. Cuz that's basically what it says. :doubt: Though, for the purpose of this letter, i can see why you go there. But that doesn't mean that I agree.
The first thing you must do in such a letter is tell the truth. Don't blow it out of proportions or you'll be just as bad as all those other propaganda writers.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword. Your side, their side and the truth." - Kosh
As for the letter itself, I suggest you organize it a bit. You have various topics crunched into a few lines.
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I'd have to agree with Tiara on that part; I think it's pretty unfair & sounds arrogant (insulting towards other nations, even), especially 'deserves the respect of your peers' (you earn respect, not deserve it). As such, it does tend to alienate people from agreeing.
The rest of the sentiments, I pretty much agree with.
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Sorry :) This letter was written mostly to encourage American nationalism, and thus inspire Americans to change their government. It has been changed.
to be an American means to work to stand above your peers,
Better?
And it is just one letter (for now), hence, I tried to fit as much into it as possible.
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Just one more nitpick; 'peers' means 'those equal to you'. How can he/she be one's equal if he/she is above them?
Sorry, but you don't work to be 'above' anyone. However, you can work on being above 'something'. Like this for example;
"To be an American is work to stand above the differences between people. To be above arrogance, hate and maybe the most grievous error of all, indifference. To be American is to show everyone else that you have earned respect by doing so."
Just a suggestion. :)
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And once again, we see how much of a sci-fi- geek Tiara is :D
Good job on the B5 quote though.
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Fixed once more:
to be an American means to work to stand above petty differences, to work for the good of all
Is it satisfactory enough to spread around now? :)
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Yes, much better :) though, it is your letter, I'm just giving some suggestions ;)
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No problem, all suggestions are welcome :D
Anyway, please do forward it around, if you wouldn't mind :)
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Well, that letter basically says everything I'm...
...against.
But go ahead with it. Free speech is the best thing about America. ;)
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Mind if I just say at this stage that - after pointing out so many times that some people here have been unable to talk about politics without things getting out of hand - I wanted to address that balance and thank all of you here for not doing it this time. I hope this trend continues :)
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Well, we can hope. There's always going to be someone to come along and be stupid.
Damn, I've jinxed it.
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Hmmmmmmmm... Maybe 'Freedom of Speech' is the weak-point here?
After all, what we really need is 'Freedom of Expression', it's all very well being free to talk about things, if people cannot accept the fact that other people are different can still make sure that no action can ever come of it, then it is a pointless exercise.
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I always believed that if you struggled hard enough, you could make change. At least in America, where certain tenants that still haven't been taken away (yet) exist, allowing you to do so.
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I agree.
People confuse 'Democracy' with 'Mob Rule', but without representation for those who are not a majority as well, even if it's not as strong being represented properly, that's all it is.
Would you ask Diner Waitress to make critical decisions for a Finance company? No. Because he/she is not in a position to make an informed decision on it, they have no experience of Finance.
And yet.... What experience do men have of Abortion? What experience does a Heterosexual have of being gay?
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Very logical letter, and very well written.
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When he does something impeachable, he should be impeached. The Law and constitution outlines strictly what impeachable offenses are. Lieing under oath, bribery, treason, murder stuff like that are really considered heainous enough. Just because you hate him doesn't mean you can impeach him. Just because congress tried to do it to Jackson doesn't mean that it is right to do so.
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You could possibly call for impeachments over the evidence for the WMD, etc, in Iraq... i'm not sure how possible it would be; proving wilfull lieing would be very difficult, and there's a whole subnetwork of sacrificable : bureaucrats and mid-to-low level politicians who can be scapegoated for protection.
Put it this way; if the President or his staff (i.e. key members of the cabinet) were found to have lied in order to get support to go to war, would it be an impeachable offence?
Or, as an alternate thing, would it be impeachable if they awarded countracts 'unfairly' to favoured companies (specifically thinking of the Halliburton thing, but also the whole camapign contributor thing)?
Not that i believe any competent politician would allow themselves to be able to be caught, of course. I have no doubt that 99% of the people there (including the opposition) have mud on their hands from something, but they'll be experts at covering their arses too.
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I don't think so, as non were under oath, so it wouldn't even by perjury. The contracts would be possible, though.
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They could be charged for murder/war crimes. Witness Guantanamo Bay. That was authorized directly by the GWB.
BTW, if you do agree with the letter, please, pass it on. :)
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I don't agree with it ether, but I'm keeping my mouth shut, why I don't.
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I don't agree with the vast majority of that, but I do applaud your efforts to write up something about what you believe in.
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Oky dokey. *avoids political statements, but would like to make it known that there are some to be said*
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You realize of course that the vast majority of people have already made up their minds and those that haven't don't really deserve to vote? (I think people should be required to research and answer simple factual (simple [unspinnable]) information on canidates before being alowed to vote.)
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I'm trying to attempt an old trick at getting people to get up and fight for their rights: inspiring nationalism. One of the main problems with America today is that we don't have a national identity anymore, like we did in the 40s, therefore, no one feels a sense of unity to the nation. If you inspire nationalism and get the vast majority of the people to rally behind their country, changes will occur.
EDIT: And dissention is welcome, so long as it has a valid argument backing it, and is delievered in a well-meaning fashion. You can't have liberty without listening to other people, even if you don't agree :)
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There is a sense of national identity, just not as much on the side of the fence you are playing to. Not to mention the fact that the US has become a much more global country than it was in the 40s.
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Exactly, and with that global power, we have lost that identity. Our identity is McDonalds, strip malls, etc.
I just want an identity that says "This is America," one that allows us to rally behind a war (I'm not saying the Iraq war is good, I'm just saying any war), and put our entire nation into it.
It's scary when you go to the states these days. Some people don't know who our president is, and most everyone doesn't even notice that our sons and daughters are dying in an unjust war.
Now that we're there, I think we should see it through, but how about having some sort of support from the home country, hm? What's the point of giving rights and freedoms to another country, when we are losing sight of the things that we stand for? Look at the treatment of POWs in WWII, and compare it to today. Publicly, at least, it's kind of scary how far we've dipped.
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I don't want to make any real political comments, since I know how easily they generate into flamewars here. :p But I do want to take note of one thing you said in your last post, about the treatment of POWs. I'm willing to bet that, in WWII at least, there were many abuses of German POWs that never made the media. Look at the beginning of the movie Saving Private Ryan, for example, where the GIs shot the surrendering German soldiers. I know that's a movie, but I have heard non-fictional accounts of such actions. They've happened in pretty much every war throughout history, no matter how "noble" one side seems. Face it: the expression "war is hell" isn't just a catch phrase. Personally, I think that, since the time of Vietnam, there haven't been any real changes in the treatment of POWs; rather, I think that the abuses that do take place have been placed much more in the public eye, for better or worse.
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Yes, I do know that abuses took place before. I never denyed that. But what reason is that to continue the trend?
Even if the abuses then were just as bad as they are now, then why continue that trend? Why not be the better person/country, and rise above that?
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Originally posted by Deepblue
There is a sense of national identity, just not as much on the side of the fence you are playing to. Not to mention the fact that the US has become a much more global country than it was in the 40s.
Exactly... A Global Presence with an identity that only encompasses the core Nation.
Precisely the same mistake us British made when we went building an Empire. And the outcome will, alas, be the same.
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If only kids today cared a whit... Maybe some hard times would do us (some) good, even if it would be bad. Then again I'm all in favor of not having such a thing, but if it happens it is only our fault.
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The way I see it, is that why we dont have the same national image as we did back in the '40s, is the same reason why we have the same image as we did in the '20s. Back in the '20s, as it also is now, we acquired so much height and wealth, that people didnt even care anymore. We lost almost all respect for our country, and we took everything for granted. Then, something happened. Our existance was threatened. And when I say that, I dont mean some petty 9/11 horse****. I mean our way of life was literally in the jaws of the beast.
Look at the history of American Culture. The same thing happened prior to the Revolutionary War and Civil War. Our way of life was legitimately at stake before we were nationalistic at all. We are now the same way as we were those times. We are a sleeping giant, and nothing short of a rude awakening will wake us up.
I know my thoughts are unorganised and such, but thats how I see it.
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EDIT: WTF? I only clicked once, I swear!
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
It's scary when you go to the states these days. Some people don't know who our president is
This reminds me of a quite hilarious documentary I've seen. A Dutch reporter went to America (NY, DC, Miami and some smaller cities/towns) and asked them some very simple questions. This documentary was made about 3 months after 9/11.
He asked people 'Who is the current President?' Some answered with 'Clinton' :p (though most knew it was bush. But even then they had trouble with the question 'Jr. or Sr.?').
He also asked 'Where is Holland?'. About 10% knew the rest said Africa, Russia, Canada, Asia or part of Germany. :lol:
Next was 'Where is the Netherlands?'. Some even said 'In Hell, the Netherworld.' :lol: But once again, only a few people knew.
The following question was 'What's the difference between Holland and the Netherlands?'. And this is where me cheeks began to hurt from laughing. :lol:
And one of the last question was 'Do you know who was responsible for 9/11?' And this scared the **** out of me. About 10% said it was the Europeans. :doubt: Roughly the same amount of people were adamant that the Russian Commies were behind it.
There were more questions but i can't remember those.
To be fair, there were also quite a few smarter people (most of them) who knew this stuff and gave sensible answers. :p But geography obviously isn't America's strong suit. Most of 'm couldn't point to Brittain on a world map. :doubt:
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Once again, all of the reasons stated above is why I'm trying to induce nationalism in America any way I can :)
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Originally posted by Flipside
Exactly... A Global Presence with an identity that only encompasses the core Nation.
Precisely the same mistake us British made when we went building an Empire. And the outcome will, alas, be the same.
I'd just like to say I don't believe we made a mistake at all. We're still here, we've built an empire and got the t-shirt, and come out of it all with the Commonwealth.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Once again, all of the reasons stated above is why I'm trying to induce nationalism in America any way I can :)
America is overflowing with nationalism. That's the whole reason most people know diddly squat about what is happening in the rest of the world. They don't care.
The best thing you can do is try to make people more aware of the fact that America isn't the center of the universe. Because sadly so, that is how many (Note; not all) Americans perceive their country. They see America as the biggest, best and most powerful nation on the planet and don't look beyond that.
Sure, it is the most powerful nation. But with power comes responsibility. With power comes the increased vulnerability of making mistakes. Once people truly begin to understand this instread of boasting about it, then you will see a definate improvement.
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That's not the kind of nationalism I am looking for, Tiara. I am looking for nationalism not rooted in the power of the country, but instead of the ideals that birthed it. If nationalism and pride in the founding father's vision is promoted, then I believe that yes, the United States will regain what it used to have.
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I admire your idealism and optomism, but I pity your sense of reality sir. I do not intend this as an insult, as we all spend a long time trying to find the truth of what our own nation is. However, you must remember that there has never been such a thing as a black and white situation. Perhaps you should look at the history of your nation in detail before you laud it's founders' "vision" with such vigour.
Certainly, my loyalty to the British Crown exists only so long as a "better" and more globally peaceful system of Government is in absentia.
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It's pretty emotional but lacking in cold facts, and that's why it doesn't affect me at all.
Be more precise. Cut back on the religion part.
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Originally posted by vyper
I admire your idealism and optomism, but I pity your sense of reality sir. I do not intend this as an insult, as we all spend a long time trying to find the truth of what our own nation is. However, you must remember that there has never been such a thing as a black and white situation. Perhaps you should look at the history of your nation in detail before you laud it's founders' "vision" with such vigour.
Certainly, my loyalty to the British Crown exists only so long as a "better" and more globally peaceful system of Government is in absentia.
I do know my country's history, and I don't like a lot of it. I know all about the mistreatments that America inflicted, especially during the age of imperialism, and even during WWII, with their mistreatment of Amer-Asians.
However, I do not use the pretense that since my country did bad things in the past, that it means those actions have to continue in the future. If we are to succeed, we must change the cycle, and I believe it is possible, and I will work to accomplish that mission.
And about the facts: they've been stated millions of times already. Anyone who reads this email probably already knows them. I admit that maybe it could use more facts, however, I still think that any person who would actually bother reading the thing, probably already knows them.
And religion is a crucial factor and cannot be left out, imo.
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Hey UT. Although I don't agree with several things you have said, I do acknowledge your good intentions. I am also amazed at the nonconfrontational repsonses... Watch out or I'll actually start liking you guys. LOL:lol:
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[Q]. I know all about the mistreatments that America inflicted, especially during the age of imperialism, and even during WWII, with their mistreatment of Amer-Asians.[/Q]
Thats exactly the point - that wasn't what I was referring to. :)
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Then name others, and I'll see if I know of them or not :)
Besides, it doesn't change the fact that a nation, especially one with the democratic abilities of the United States, can move past such things and prepare for a better future.
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Originally posted by vyper
I'd just like to say I don't believe we made a mistake at all. We're still here, we've built an empire and got the t-shirt, and come out of it all with the Commonwealth.
Oh, I agree, in the end we started to realise that we were making violent enemies everywhere in the world and that we would have to take steps to make amends or pay some other way, but I just hate to think that, after the example of how many millions died in India and other countries before we got the message, that this situation is heading for a repeat performance.
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Originally posted by Tiara
I'm sorry, but I take offense in the fact that you think that Americans are better then the rest.
Well, it's like this. There are americans(IE geograpically from the USA) and then there are Americans(those who stand for freedom and justice(not the gundams) and right of all Men(generic humanity) to live free from oppression of any kind) And you'll forgive me axe lady, but the USA is the only country that has ever done that. If we were an Imperial power like so much of the Eurotrash Elitist scum(nobody here...much) then why isn't Japan part of the US or Germany? When the dust settles, Iraq will be free to choose their path, indeed they have already started.
Something interesting to note...almost all of the "insurgent"(they are actually almost all foreign non-iraqis) attacks have been against Iraqi police and civilians. The ratio of innocent Iraqis killed to American casualties is overwhelmingly toward the Iraqis. What does this say to us about the true intentions of the "insurgents"?
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Originally posted by Liberator
And you'll forgive me axe lady, but the USA is the only country that has ever done that.
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No, I won't forgive you because your self-glorification is simply bull**** to the biggest extend physically possible.
Eurotrash Elitist scum
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Ow ow ow... :rolleyes:
Something interesting to note...almost all of the "insurgent"(they are actually almost all foreign non-iraqis) attacks have been against Iraqi police and civilians. The ratio of innocent Iraqis killed to American casualties is overwhelmingly toward the Iraqis. What does this say to us about the true intentions of the "insurgents"? [/B]
Ehm... So, suddenly you've become an intelligence officer operating from the pentagon with 100% accurate information and not just disinformation that is distributed by the press, lunatics and other assorted weirdos?
Sorry, but this is exactly the thing I was talking about to UT. It's 'Me, me, me and not you!' kinda thing. You make it sound like America is the embodyment of the Second Coming that will deliver everyone to freedom and prosperity. Well, here's a shocker for ya; it isn't.
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only because you won't get out of the way....
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Lib, you're turning a perfectly civil and intelligent debate into horse****. Please stop it.
The United States is more morally superior to any other nation than the UK, France, the Netherlands, or Germany is. The difference between us is that you are still at the stage where the majority of your population believes that you can do no wrong. American involvement in overseas affairs has time and again proven you are the last people on earth anyone's freedom and liberty should be entrusted to.
Also, you'll find that steam-rollering over everyone else who you are daft enough to think are "in the way" or morally inferior, leads to quite a few folk not liking you - folk who can come back to cause you problems when your steam-roller runs out of steam.
Now, I suggest if this is to go any further you create a new thread before you destroy UTs.
UT - my references are to the 40s and previous to them, you may want to consider the concept of Wilsonian policy. Additionally, try to remember that the wars of Independence were not fought for any great moral idealism but rather for a multitude of political schizms between Westminster and the colonies.
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fine, **** it, this was mostly spam to show off my new siggy component anyway...
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Cliche.
But funny IF you haven't seen it before and know binary.
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Originally posted by vyper
UT - my references are to the 40s and previous to them, you may want to consider the concept of Wilsonian policy. Additionally, try to remember that the wars of Independence were not fought for any great moral idealism but rather for a multitude of political schizms between Westminster and the colonies.
True that, and indeed, the Civil War also wasn't fought to end slavery, either, it just happened to come about because Lincoln needed the troops.
Still, though, the United States has a reputation of being founded on morals, yet the problem is that since the public usually just stops there, they don't think beyond that and go "Wait...so what about all these infractions?" If you get the public to actually look back on history, (something that the No Child Left Behind act does not require) and compare it to today, you'll see that we have lost many morals and obligations to the world as a self-proclaimed "world police".
Now, my optomism starts there, where I believe that it is still possible to save the country, even without most of the "peons" if you will, if only a few people would stop trying to cover their asses and actually get up there and lay something down on the line. If people would just wake up and fight for their rights, then they could not only improve America, but the world as a whole.
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ok to be honest with you, while i found alot of lib's remarks to be distateful, i did find something that he said to be true to the mark. Japan, Germany, Italy, everyone who's ass we have kicked in the last century and now in this one.....how many are really under the control of the united states? None. Japan and germany are beating us in a different kind of war...a war of economics, make no mistake about it, we are losing that one, and badly.
If america was truly interested in imperialism, why are these countries onot controlled by our government? Why is it that 12 years after we were there the first time, we were back? We had Iraq beaten, let's face that fact right now, we had them beaten and the world was with us, had we rolled in then and finished the job, they could have set up a new and democratic government then. Would iraq have been a puppet state? No more so than japan and germany.
I don't look at it as imperialism, as we are not adding anyone to any empire. We have had 50 states since the 1950's, and we have had ample oportunity to annex other countries. It hasn't happened, and it isn't happening.
Here's a question that i beg an answer to. Since most of the people on this forum are against america and her actions, what do you same people think that america doing right?
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The reason that we didn't go in the first time and finished the job is the same reason we shouldn't have this time: we have no way to get out.
And the US was an imperialist country. If you look back at history, you'll see how we were part of the unequel trade agreements that forced many Asian countries to trade with us, at a disadvantage to themselves. Sometimes imperialism doesn't mean conquering land, it means conquering economics, so there's no rival to your own.
Also, if we annexxed another country, the world would go ballistic. Almost every country would rally against us, because as soon as the giant flexes it's muscle, it either means it's going to punch something, or is warning everyone else.
EDIT: And about that. I'm not against America at all. In fact, I am a true patriot, a man who believes in his country and the greatness of it. However, following any leader, no matter how brilliant, without question, is simply asking for that leader to screw you over. You need to be able to disagree with your leader as well as agree, or you will never get fair representation.
I'm sorry if all that is hard to understand, my thoughts are bouncing around in my head right now.
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If you're really interested in saving your country UT, sort this (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/) out. Forget about the ideals, principles and good intentions, because unless this is curbed the US will not be in a position to lead anyone to anything.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/454b9d94-7...000e2511c8.html
http://www.businessweek.com/magazin...22077_mz054.htm
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?...yLhzkE&refer=uk
http://www.globalagendamagazine.com...thewsimmons.asp
Read these links and ask yourself, in a world where oil is in short supply, whos it going to be sold too, the man who has a few quid in his pocket or the man who owes money to everyone and anyone.
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Once again: a problem with ideals and principles. No one thinks of the future in America, hence the above problems.
EDIT: Also, none of those links work :-p I based that on the "debt clock" text in the first link :)
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
The reason that we didn't go in the first time and finished the job is the same reason we shouldn't have this time: we have no way to get out.
That is patently false. It's just going to take time. In the End freedom cannot be given by another, it can only be won by and for yourself. We were in Japan for 12 years before we left. The fact that we had essentially bombed them back to the stone age was a factor that actually made it easier to rebuild them. The problem in Iraq is not that the Iraqi are against us, no, they are coming out in droves to join the Police and Military. Partly because it's a steady paycheck, but mostly because they want to see their country free of foreign influence. The average Iraqi knows that the fastest way to be rid of the Americans is to get rid of the "insurgents"(they are actually Terrorists whose only goal is anarchy from which they can gain power) and establish a stable government by Law. After these events, they would only receive the aid they request with all other American presence departing. Unfortunately, we in the West(this includes most of Europe) have become very impatient by and large, we want what want now with no excuses, and there are precious few of us left who can think in the long term(perhaps my greatest flaw is that I cannot think effectively in the short term). I suspect that we(the USA) will be in Iraq for at least another 6 years, probably more. It would have been significantly easier if we had bombed them back to the stone age.
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
ok to be honest with you, while i found alot of lib's remarks to be distateful, i did find something that he said to be true to the mark. Japan, Germany, Italy, everyone who's ass we have kicked in the last century and now in this one.....how many are really under the control of the united states? None. Japan and germany are beating us in a different kind of war...a war of economics, make no mistake about it, we are losing that one, and badly.
In WW2, the only country the US could have had any real claim to control would be Japan. But to 'control' Japan would have been very expensive, manpower-wise, and the US already had a stranglehold on Japan's supplies (IIRC).
Annexing a country not connected with the annexer has a great many disadvantages, since you have to afford the same rights to citizens. Also, other countries will point fingers and complain.
Of course, you can always make them colonies, but then you still have the peer pressure from other countries to not do it.
There is much money to be had in rebuilding a country, however...
Although ideals and morals may be great for gaining support, being practical seems to be a far more widely practiced method in running a country. If that practicality works with morals and ideals, so much the better.
The debt situation is a pretty bad problem though (as is the dropping value of the dollar), but I'm not sure it's the fault of the average consumer. Government (military) spending is definitely a large chunk of it. I suppose everyone could 'Buy American', that might help a little, but I think a better idea would be to try to cut down on government spending. (Privatizing social security - not so great an idea when you're $3 Trillion in debt).
Anyways, I don't think there's any real cure for apathy. If people don't want to vote, they aren't going to vote. And, personally, I'm fine with that. :D If people aren't willing to keep up with who's President, I doubt they have enough info to make an informed decision on many issues. Plus, it means that any of my votes will just count that much more. If they don't like that, they're just going to have to start caring. :)
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Originally posted by Liberator
only because you won't get out of the way....
Twat.
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'to be an American is to stand tall above your peers, to be part of the greatest nation ever conceived!'
Actually, I don't take offence at that in the slightest, after all, isn't that what more or less everyone believes about their country in an 'Insert Name Here' kind of way?
Thing is, America is trying to form an Empire, even some of those in a position to know have admitted it, I believe a Bush aide spoke to Ronald Suskind of the New York times, telling him that they were now an Empire and made reality up as they chose it, and that the media's only job was to document it.
It's when people make comments like this, that makes me seriously worried that, not only are they deliberately misleading their own countrymen, but are actually rubbing their face in it, almost as if they are laughing at people for believing them.
Whether it's true or not, such arrogance in power will always lead to mistrust.
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Liberator, even though you may be somewhat on my side, you are so uninformed and so conftrontational, that I really wish you weren't. Please, stop posting such off-base remarks.
A) If we had bombed them back to the stone age, then not only would we have even more trouble rebuilding, but the international uproar over it would be tremendous.
B) The fact is that we don't have an exit plan. In case you haven't noticed, US troops are dying daily. Maybe if you had a son or daughter in the conflict, and watched them get torn apart from the feet up by a hidden land mine, then you wouldn't be so quick to support the war.
I, luckily, have not, but I know many people who have, and the problem with the supporters of the war is that they usually don't realize the fact that Americans are dying, and lots of them.
Lib, when I say we don't have an exit plan, that means that we can't leave. If we left Iraq right now, the country would tear itself apart, leaving a huge power vacuum in that area, ripe for some othe Al-Queda type organization to come in and take over.
So we can't leave. We can't ask for help, because no one will give it. So what does that mean? We don't have any way to get out. That means that over the next twenty or so years, many more Americans will lose their lives.
Sure, I agree that Saddamn should have been taken out, but not like this. Saddamn was a horrible man, yes, but right now, we are no better. If you look at the abuses piling up, then we are no better. If you look at the fact that we committed an un-sanctioned invasion, then we are no better.
That is why the United States needs to improve itself before it improves others.
Anyway, I need to get off, someone needs a ride somewhere and I can't think straight (just woke up). Sorry if some of that didn't make much sense, or wasn't explained in detail.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Once again: a problem with ideals and principles. No one thinks of the future in America, hence the above problems.
Ideals and principals arent going to pay the bills, and unless those bills are paid it doesnt matter what ideals and principles the US stands for, because nobodys going to listen to it.
Originally posted by Unknown Target
EDIT: Also, none of those links work :-p I based that on the "debt clock" text in the first link :)
hmmph, thats what I get for copy and pasting.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/454b9d94-7fbf-11d9-8ceb-00000e2511c8.html
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_09/b3922077_mz054.htm
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=aZ6yVeyLhzkE&refer=uk
http://www.globalagendamagazine.com/2005/matthewsimmons.asp
Originally posted by Flipside
Thing is, America is trying to form an Empire, even some of those in a position to know have admitted it, I believe a Bush aide spoke to Ronald Suskind of the New York times, telling him that they were now an Empire and made reality up as they chose it, and that the media's only job was to document it.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Click the statement of principals button and take note of the names.
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I call for public spankings for those that resorted to name calling... Get out the bamboo switches and cat-o-nine-tails. :p
UT started this thread as a request for those that agreed with his email to express it by sending it along. Up until the last page or so, it was pretty much just a meeting of the minds with an exchange of opinions on what he had to say. Then we just had to slip back into old habits, didn't we....
Not one of us would be taken seriously if we claimed that we were in possession of all pertinent facts or that all the facts we did have were 100% truth. All here have formed opinions based on what information they have accumulated, and express themselves according to that opinion.
We all have a right to our opinions, however that right becomes corrupt when we stoop to personal attacks, fruitless argumentation, baiting, or crude name calling. Those things only serve to make you look immature, unintelligent, or anti-social.
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Originally posted by Sapphire
I call for public spankings for those that resorted to name calling... Get out the bamboo switches and cat-o-nine-tails. :p
UT started this thread as a request for those that agreed with his email to express it by sending it along. Up until the last page or so, it was pretty much just a meeting of the minds with an exchange of opinions on what he had to say. Then we just had to slip back into old habits, didn't we....
[/b]
NO DISCUSSION HERE JUST PRAISE ME OK :confused:
What do you except. Someone posts a political thingie in the internets. Debate is bound to happen. It should happen. It happens.
Not one of us would be taken seriously if we claimed that we were in possession of all pertinent facts or that all the facts we did have were 100% truth. All here have formed opinions based on what information they have accumulated, and express themselves according to that opinion.
Quite a few things are facts, not just "ur opinions mang". Bad relativity sucks.
We all have a right to our opinions, however that right becomes corrupt when we stoop to personal attacks, fruitless argumentation, baiting, or crude name calling. Those things only serve to make you look immature, unintelligent, or anti-social. [/B]
It's debate, a fine art indeed.
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Debate is a fine art... Thats what I'm saying. Why turn it into a brawl?
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Originally posted by Sapphire
Debate is a fine art... Thats what I'm saying. Why turn it into a brawl?
Trolls or "trolls".
What constitutes as a troll is a fine limit. People get pissed off at Lib's opinions, but I doub't he's trolling with them - he propably believes in his cause, so dismissing him outright is a big mistake. Of course, such opinions tend to heat some people up, so what begins as honest (lol) argument ends in flames. It's pretty much unavoidable and the only way to stop it is strict moderation (bans).
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No, the only way is for people to take personal responsibility for their own actions. Thats a sign of maturity.
edit: btw...I am not trying to "get" Lib...k? He and I probably have many of the same opinions on things. I am addressing the delivery of those opinions....and I'm not addressing just his. I mean all of us in general.
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basically it's debating verses flaming. when we head for name calling, we begin a flame war. For the most part, we have had a debate thread on religeon and now one on politics. This one is beginning to degenerate. The idea of this thread is to debate without flaming. Let's try and keep our eye on the ball here ok?
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
Here's a question that i beg an answer to. Since most of the people on this forum are against america and her actions, what do you same people think that america doing right?
In terms of foreign affairs in particular (because I probably don't know enough of internal American politics to make an informed-enough opinion) - not much. In fact, I can't really remember looking at a US foreign policy over the last 3,4,etc years and thinking 'well done, good on you'.
Does that make me biased? I don't know - I don't think so, because there's not much my own country has done that I approve of.... tuition fees, supporting the Iraq war, internment without trial/house arrest, ID cards, the scapegoatery of asylum seekers/immigrants/refugees,etc.
But, in complete 100% objective honesty, nothing springs to mind.
NB: I'm annoyed when people have a go at 'Europeans'. Europe is about 10-20-30+ (depending on how you define europes size) countries of vastly differing culture and ethnicity. I think it's unfair to group such a wide region of diversity into a single catch-all term, and at worst it avoids actually examining the motives of the people of each nation.
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A heated debate is still just a debate. It has not yet lowered to the point of personal attacks. And also, an argument has to be honest, otherwise it's just libel.
More on-topic, I find it saddening that even Canada has a richer American culture than the US itself. The "American Way" has been bluntly replaced with "The American Administration's Way". But what saddens me even further, is that people know this, but they dont care anymore. And it will always be my belief that the only way around it, the only way to restore what should be, is to make the masses realize what a privelage the "American Way" is.
I seriously cant wait until the next World War to come and cripple the US's morale, so that others may share the same love I (reluctantly) have for the country.
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Originally posted by Janos
NO DISCUSSION HERE JUST PRAISE ME OK :confused:
[/B]
I never said that. In fact, if you read my posts, I clearly stated that I welcomed all opinions.
However, we had a few "unnamed" people come into the thread, resort to name calling, and it all went to hell. If you read the first page, you'll see that not only was it flameless, but we were having a civil discussion with people from many different view points.
Admins, I leave it up to you to see whether or not you want to see if this thread gets back on track, or lock it as you see fit.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
I never said that. In fact, if you read my posts, I clearly stated that I welcomed all opinions.
However, we had a few "unnamed" people come into the thread, resort to name calling, and it all went to hell. If you read the first page, you'll see that not only was it flameless, but we were having a civil discussion with people from many different view points.
Admins, I leave it up to you to see whether or not you want to see if this thread gets back on track, or lock it as you see fit.
Sorry, it came out a little blunt. It was not meant for you, but for Sapphire. plz don't hate me we can be e-lovers
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I'm...not gonna touch that one :D
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Janos you do know that she is engaged right?
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Public spanking!:D To all who name call.
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
Janos you do know that she is engaged right?
She? you turned me off
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
A) If we had bombed them back to the stone age, then not only would we have even more trouble rebuilding, but the international uproar over it would be tremendous.
#1)Rebuilding a country with 0 existing governmental structure is far easier that trying to fit a new system over an existing system that works differently
B) The fact is that we don't have an exit plan. In case you haven't noticed, US troops are dying daily.
#2)We have been in country for just under 2 years. You've fallen into the same intellectual trap that the Left wants you to. Rebuilding a country is a LONG TERM venture, it can't be done in a couple of years and then say **** 'em. We will be there a minimum of 10 years if we want to look like we're taking it seriously.
It is a problem that there are US soldiers dying daily. However, there are many times that number of Iraqis dying from the same bombs and raids. What needs to happen is a full size high impact media campaign to educate the Iraqis that we are there to help them, and if they are unhappy with us being there, the fastest way to get rid of us is to turn over the bastards that are killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters.
______________
Lib doesn't troll on purpose...
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The problem there Lib, is that there will always be people who see that as coercion, i.e. 'You want us out of here? Then give us what we want.'.
It's a Catch 22. It isn't government that is the stumbling block, it is the culture. The poor Iraqi people are caught in the middle of an argument that most of them want no part in. The fight has never been between America and the Terrorists, it's between Freedom of Life and Forced Compliance. And that's a messy War, because there is no home country, no bases, no uniform and no 'Right or Wrong' for either side. There are 'Generals' for both sides in both America and the Middle East, and that War can never, ever be won with bombs or bullets.
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...you think all that hasn't been tried?
Look, this argument's delving into emotional stupidity, I'm not even going to touch those points, I'll leave it to someone else to start the flame war.
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sorry UT, and it was going so well...even though i don't agree with your opinion, the thread was going well.
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(@Lib re WW2 reconstruction)
One thing you are forgetting, I think, is that both Germany and Japan still had an existing governmental structure after WW2 (including police and army); in the case of Japan, the US resisted calls to try Emperor Hirohito for war crimes in order to use him to pacify the Japanese public , and in Germany it was Armiral Karl donitz (for all of 20 days) and then Konrad Adenauer who became Chancellor after Hitlers death. Likewise in the case of Italy.
So.... you're talking about wiping out governmental structures, but more of that was done in Iraq than during WW2, at least in terms of aving some co-operative proxy government. Iraq is probably a classic example of a post-war power vacuum - the looting being the most blatant example - and as such it's created a fermenting pot for crime and violence (including the insurgency), as well as paralysing the likes of power and hospital services.
NB: oh, and I don't think, IIRC, the Marshall plan had all the rebuilding contracts pre-emptively awarded to US firms without the government of the countries being consulted. That sort of thing can cause resentment.
EDIT;
Originally posted by Liberator
It is a problem that there are US soldiers dying daily. However, there are many times that number of Iraqis dying from the same bombs and raids. What needs to happen is a full size high impact media campaign to educate the Iraqis that we are there to help them, and if they are unhappy with us being there, the fastest way to get rid of us is to turn over the bastards that are killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters.
What makes you think they'd trust you to do so? I doubt many Iraqis would naive enough to change opinion based on the media after living for so many years under a propagandistic dictatorship.
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There is a big media campaign in Iraq saying exactly that, its not working because of stuff like this:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/050228/usnews/28road.htm
Btw theres some very good admins on here who stay impartial even when the topics being discussed involve their beliefs, countries and ways of life, people should just leave the moderating to them.
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do you mean that we should all just shut up and tolerate the flaming?
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Wow. Just wow.
One person (Liberator) managed to turn a civil discussion into an all-out brawl.
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It isn't a brawl, not yet anyways. And all I see is mostly debate, not much flames yet.
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See the wee button that says report this post to a moderator? Its there for exactly this purpose. If you feel somebodys insulting you without grounds use it. I guess really it all boils down to the individual, I work on building sites and hear so much bad language that it doesnt even register anymore so getting called a few names isnt going to bother me.
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It's not the actual names, it's the fact that people are being called names when it's completely uncessery in a civil discussion such as this.
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agreed UT. and for what it's worth Gank, yeah the button is there, but instead of using it, wouldn't it be better if it wasn't needed? it's not hard to have a debate without flaming, we've proven that.
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Well I just think that if there wasnt a few people making such a big deal about it, it wouldnt be such a big deal.
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and i think that if people would debate sensibly and not resort to the immature actions of flaming there wouldn't be a problem. Do you personally think that watching threads get ruined by flaming is a good thing? I am asking. I am like you in one respect. i don't acre if i get flamed, it doesn't matter, i will go happily along and mod freespace. What does bother me though, is watching an intelligent debate be thrown to the wayside for no reason except for the simple fact that some people cannot debate without arguing.
i like to think that right now we are debating and not arguing this point.
my personal feelings are simple, if a person is adult enough to discuss politics, then they should be adult enough to do so without having to become a child about it when someone disagrees.
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Originally posted by Liberator
It is a problem that there are US soldiers dying daily. However, there are many times that number of Iraqis dying from the same bombs and raids. What needs to happen is a full size high impact media campaign to educate the Iraqis that we are there to help them, and if they are unhappy with us being there, the fastest way to get rid of us is to turn over the bastards that are killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters.
[/size]
So, you're working on the assumption that the US is there to help the Iraqis, and that the insurgents are the true enemies?
Seems a bit of a stretch.
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To be perfectly honest Rictor, I don't know why we are in Iraq. Most of the excuses we were given have been largely disproven or at the most proven to be of secondary importance.
The fact of the matter is we are there now, regardless of anything else.
And it is now our duty to see it through to the end. The bitter end if necessary.
There are lots of foreigners fighting American/Iraqi forces, and killing LOTS of Iraqi civvies, throughout the country, you can't tell me you think they are there to help the Iraqis throw off the yoke of American oppression, when we've said we're leaving an indefinate period in the near future. Them killing and dying for something that's going to happen anyway is kind of pointless isn't it?
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Originally posted by Liberator
To be perfectly honest Rictor, I don't know why we are in Iraq. Most of the excuses we were given have been largely disproven or at the most proven to be of secondary importance.
The fact of the matter is we are there now, regardless of anything else.
For once, I agree with you. :eek:*SHOCK*:eek:
:p
And it is now our duty to see it through to the end. The bitter end if necessary.[/b]
Ok, I have to ask. The bitter end for who?
There are lots of foreigners fighting American/Iraqi forces, and killing LOTS of Iraqi civvies, throughout the country, you can't tell me you think they are there to help the Iraqis throw off the yoke of American oppression,
[/b]
No, but you have to realize that they believe in things just like you and I do. they only act on it in a far more extreme manner. i'm certainly not condoning their actions and their methods even less, but in a weird and sick way, it is understandable. Especially when you look at the first point you made. there was and is no solid reason for this war.
(Just playing the Devil's advocate here for a moment)
when we've said we're leaving an indefinate period in the near future. Them killing and dying for something that's going to happen anyway is kind of pointless isn't it?
Yes, 'indefinate', 'near future'. All kind of relative terms don't ya think?
I could say the same for the American and other coalition forces. Them killing, fighting and dying is kind of pointless without good reason. Sure, now they've started it, they'd better finish it or else things will crumble and the **** will really hit the fan, but the point still stands.
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Originally posted by Liberator
There are lots of foreigners fighting American/Iraqi forces, and killing LOTS of Iraqi civvies, throughout the country, you can't tell me you think they are there to help the Iraqis throw off the yoke of American oppression, when we've said we're leaving an indefinate period in the near future. Them killing and dying for something that's going to happen anyway is kind of pointless isn't it?
Originally posted by Tiara
No, but you have to realize that they believe in things just like you and I do. they only act on it in a far more extreme manner. i'm certainly not condoning their actions and their methods even less, but in a weird and sick way, it is understandable. Especially when you look at the first point you made. there was and is no solid reason for this war.
There are not alot of foreign fighters in iraq. However, those that are there are effective and in a manner proffesional terrorists. If you remember the military camp that the terrorist blewup the mess hall? Investigations pointed found that he was a Suadi(Go Figure). They are taking a more prominant role than the average Sunni insurgent. In military terms they are referred to as force multipliers. Other fighters are a mixture of regular civilians, and former republican guard finance by money from Syrian banks. Additionally, there are some hired mercenaries in Iraq as well. Saddam was no idiot.
*Waits for Swamp_Thing to come and say you are a bush lacky and listening to Bush propaganda after laughing in my face*
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I'll agree that a great deal of the insurgence is either co-ordinated or instigated by non-Iraqis. I'm wondering about the Syria connection though, is there evidence of Syria funding these people at all? I'd be far more inclined to suspect that a larger percentage of their funding would come from Saudi terrirtory, much as the 9/11 Terrorists, but no action will ever be taken against Saudi Arabia.
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Originally posted by Flipside
I'll agree that a great deal of the insurgence is either co-ordinated or instigated by non-Iraqis. I'm wondering about the Syria connection though, is there evidence of Syria funding these people at all? I'd be far more inclined to suspect that a larger percentage of their funding would come from Saudi terrirtory, much as the 9/11 Terrorists, but no action will ever be taken against Saudi Arabia.
Taking action against Saudi-Arabia would be rather stupid. The royals are supporting US and trying to tackle extremists and islamists, and is pretty unpopular. Attacking the monarchy would be A) attacking your friends and 2) pawing way for more religious people. Using anything other than kind words and monetary aid for the throne (ie. more US military actions against the opposition groups) would propably cause the islamists gain even more support among the population and could destabilize the country. So far the only thing US can do is to support the throne and pray.
As for Syria, well, ugh. I cannot believe that some idiots in home front are drumming for another war (against someone who is no threat at all), when the Iraq stuff isn't ready. It would destablize the ME even more, be a massive PR hit, etc. etc. Add the fact that I have seen no casus belli that is in any way beliavable (LOL WMDs ARE THEYR BECAUSE THEY R BAATHISTS!!!1 TERRISM is the best one, and that's not much), it could drive the economy to shambles, the diplomatic repercussions would be bad, manpower issue et cetera et cetera..
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Originally posted by redmenace
[snip]
...
and former republican guard finance by money from Syrian banks. Additionally, there are some hired mercenaries in Iraq as well. Saddam was no idiot.[/snip]
This Syrian banks thingy, source?
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It wouldn't suprise me if in fact Syria is hiding the bathist leaders especially since Sunni Bathists and Syrian bathists are very closely related. As per funding it, wellI think they are not since Saddam had alot of money stored up. This is more evident by the fact they have found in Falujah crisp dollar bills on insurgents. These did not come from the contractors since they pay in the iraqi currency. It must have come from either cash stores or money from syrian banks.
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That's pretty shakey evidence against a whole country.
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A question to you all, do you think the insurgency in Iraq will ever end so long as the coalition is in there? I seriously doubt it. The comparisons between Israel/Palestine may be few, but I believe that's what the situation will devolve into. In light of that, perhaps it would be best to pull out now, let them have their civil wars and save face as well as our soldiers' lives. So long as we're in there the situation will only become worse.
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If you're so sure that the majority of the resistance is evil terrorists trying to take over the country, then how come for the first maybe 6 months of occupation there was barely any resistance, at least by today's standards, and how come it has progressively been ramping up the longer the US stays there? That's cause by and large Iraqis gave the US a chance to prove their legitimacy, and they failed spectacularly by wreaking havoc on the country and ****ing over the population.
Yes, different factions are playing for power in Iraq, including foreign governments and the US, but at the end of the day I think that the resistance in general better represents the wishes of Iraqis than the Americans do. You also have to take into account that Americans are more foreign than say, a Syrian or a Saudi. Thats cause the "foreign elements" of thre reistsance are all Arab Muslims, as opposed to Anglo-American Christians. If China occupied the US, who would you think is more foreign, the Chinese occupiers or the Canadian insurgents crossing the border to help their neighbors?
Originally posted by Liberator
To be perfectly honest Rictor, I don't know why we are in Iraq. Most of the excuses we were given have been largely disproven or at the most proven to be of secondary importance.
The fact of the matter is we are there now, regardless of anything else.
And it is now our duty to see it through to the end. The bitter end if necessary.
There are lots of foreigners fighting American/Iraqi forces, and killing LOTS of Iraqi civvies, throughout the country, you can't tell me you think they are there to help the Iraqis throw off the yoke of American oppression, when we've said we're leaving an indefinate period in the near future. Them killing and dying for something that's going to happen anyway is kind of pointless isn't it?
If you're walking to the store, and after 20 minutes you realize you're walking in the wrong direction, do you keep walking the wrong way with the hope that you will one day reach your destination, or do you turn around and start walking the other way?
As for the US troops withdrawl, I think you're naive to believe a word out of the mouths of the people who are saying the occupation will end any time soon. What you have to realize is that there is no job to do, the occupation isn't a means to an end, it is the end, at leasy in the foreseeable future. The "we're leaving" story has gone through about 10 thousand different versions, so I have no reason to believe the ten thousand and first, especialy considreing who its coming from...
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Even if we were to leave, they would still be attacking the provincial gov't and the Shiite. It is not as simple as we are there, therefore we would will be attacked. But if this resistance represents the wishes of the Iraqi people, why have they now begun attacking Shiite? Are we to believe that the Shiite want themselves to be visiously killed.
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Maybe the insurgents were simply biding thier time and waiting? A few attacks, emboldening themselves to the standards that they are today. I don't think that they were afraid, i think that they were waiting, and have since changed plans because we didn't leave fast enough.
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To be honest, if anything or anyone had created a power-vacuum in Iraq then this would have happened, it was a massive free-for-all just waiting to happen. An oppressed people, and a leader who was a Wolf surrounded by Wolves.
What may need to be remembered is that, whilst being a Muslim Country, the religion in Iraq was actually far more liberal than, say, Afghanistan. However, it is surrounded by countries that would much rather see a far tighter grip on the country by it's religious leaders, and removing a strong military leader, regardless of his ethics, has left that void open to be exploited.
Remember, whilst Saddam was in control of Iraq, he had access to his own army, and little hope of relying on his neighbours for help. However, a state based on Fundamentalistic Islam would find supporters scattered around a far larger area.
America is far from the only country that dreams of Empire ;)
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Originally posted by redmenace
It wouldn't suprise me if in fact Syria is hiding the bathist leaders especially since Sunni Bathists and Syrian bathists are very closely related. As per funding it, wellI think they are not since Saddam had alot of money stored up. This is more evident by the fact they have found in Falujah crisp dollar bills on insurgents. These did not come from the contractors since they pay in the iraqi currency. It must have come from either cash stores or money from syrian banks.
Iraq and Syria are/were not very friendly towards each other, even though the origins of both Baath parties were pretty much the same. Syria supported Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, and after that the diplomatic relationships between the countries have been cool-calm. Syria was also against Iraq during the 1991 Gulf War. They've been nitpicking about which country is runned by "true Baathists" (OK, were nitpicking). There were also differences between the stance on Palestinian issue and so on.
Recently there have been allegations about Syria supporting Iraqi insurgents/rebels/guerillas/whatever, but no waterproof evidence of Syria's government's part has been introduced.