Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Nuke on February 21, 2005, 09:02:50 pm
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whats the bare minimum of files needed to get the freespace engine to run without freespace? i was playing tbp 3 and it amazed me that they werent requiring freespace at all to play the mod. other than info entered into tables, what files are absolutely nessisary for the game to run, specifficly anything that is hardcoded directly into the engine.?
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Mostly the interface.
Also the jump node POF. And most of the tables themselves. The HUD images. Fonts. Squadron and player logos, maybe. The mouse cursor.
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TBP still uses some FS files. They were just included...
But if a few skilled people worked together on this we could make the FSO engine standalone.
It's not as easy as one might think.
But what could you gain by this?
An engine without ships and missions....
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As DaBrain says the problem is that unless you've also replaced all of the ships in the game it's a little pointless.
Yes you'd have a stand alone engine but what could you do with it?
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Not a lot. Not allowed to make a game to sell from it, so you'd put a lot of effort into something that, for some minimal licensing fees, you could get elsewhere AND be able to sell the game.
WMC put together a list of the required files for me a LONG time ago, I'd have to search this forum to find it.
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The only imperative I can think of for this is if you are a Masochist like me and have plans to create an entirely new Universe from the SCP Engine one day, simply for the fun of it :)
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Originally posted by karajorma
As DaBrain says the problem is that unless you've also replaced all of the ships in the game it's a little pointless.
Yes you'd have a stand alone engine but what could you do with it?
Nothing, of course!
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you forget that im a modder, make the engine stand alone and mods become free games, the babylon project for example. mainly it would be aimed at the total conversion modder. seriously if you consolidated every mod ever made for freespace you could make your own universe anyway.
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But only with great difficulty could you eliminate everything :v: from the pile. Terran you can get away with since it's well, us, but you can forget anything relating to the Freespace universe. And that includes the often-used :v: tile textures.
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Just to clear any possible confusion. TBP still does use some FS2 files, not everything has been replaced just yet. The biggest problem is the interface, where there are hundreds if not thousands of files that we still would need to replace. A lot of work for quite minimal gain.
I'd love to get those files replaced but its just too much work.
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any chance a console based or menu based interface could be coded into the engine that may override the freespace interface system. it may prove to be less laborous that making new interface art. with all the total conversions comping out it might be something they all will want to use.
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The way I look at it is this, I'd love to do the work to be able to create a free non-Freespace combat game using the SCP. It WOULD be hard work, no doubt, else the TBP crew would have done exactly that, but I think if push came to shove, some things, mice pointers etc, Volition couldn't give a toot if you used it, I mean how much Intellectual does it take to make an arrow?
That said, it's probably best to play safe, but either way, one day...... ;)
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Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Just to clear any possible confusion. TBP still does use some FS2 files, not everything has been replaced just yet. The biggest problem is the interface, where there are hundreds if not thousands of files that we still would need to replace. A lot of work for quite minimal gain.
I'd love to get those files replaced but its just too much work.
We at Wing Commander Saga go the same way. We use FS2 demo, which is free, as core package: mostly interface, hud as well. The gain is obvious: people, who do not posses FS2 can still enjoy the mod :)
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Originally posted by StratComm
But only with great difficulty could you eliminate everything :v: from the pile. Terran you can get away with since it's well, us, but you can forget anything relating to the Freespace universe. And that includes the often-used :v: tile textures.
If you've replaced almost everything like TBP have or if you're likely to have a huge fan base who haven't played FS2 then I'm fine with going stand alone but I don't like the idea of FS2 mods going stand alone that much to be honest. Quite frankly I don't see the point.
What I'd hate to see is every single mod released as stand alone with their own launchers cluttering up my desktop and hard drive for something that could be done using only one.
If we're going to be putting up the interface files for all of these stand alone mods why not just simply put FS2 up for download and be done with it?
Originally posted by Tolwyn
We at Wing Commander Saga go the same way. We use FS2 demo, which is free, as core package: mostly interface, hud as well. The gain is obvious: people, who do not posses FS2 can still enjoy the mod :)
Unfortunately we don't get the option of watching the really ardent FS2 haters in the WC community have to eat humble pie and get themselves a full copy of FS2 in order to play it that way :p
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If you were to replace all the art in the default FS2 VP files with a completely unique and original universe, you could stuff all that on a CD and sell it, completely legally, with a few restrictions:
- No use of volition files, ie POFs or VPs.
- You could include the Launcher, but not FS2, FRED2, or POFCS. (The latter depends on the legality of reverse-engineering file formats)
- Pieces of art specific to the FS universe in the mediaVPs (ship skins) could not be included but, AFAIK, you could include missile trails and such as their likeness would not be owned in any way by Interplay or Volition and wouldn't have anything to do with the FS universe.
That of course is based on my knowledge of US copyright laws.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Unfortunately we don't get the option of watching the really ardent FS2 haters in the WC community have to eat humble pie and get themselves a full copy of FS2 in order to play it that way :p
hmm... it would not change anything. Loaf, the Uber-FS2hater, does not play any mods. And he has no love for WCS either ;7
EDIT: Take a look at this (http://wcnews.com/loaf/saga-frigate.pdf) . :D
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
Not a lot. Not allowed to make a game to sell from it, so you'd put a lot of effort into something that, for some minimal licensing fees, you could get elsewhere AND be able to sell the game.
could you post some examples plz?
On my own I've heard about torque and seen something about truevision, dunno exactly about the first one but TV didn't seem to me all that good.
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Originally posted by karajorma
If you've replaced almost everything like TBP have or if you're likely to have a huge fan base who haven't played FS2 then I'm fine with going stand alone but I don't like the idea of FS2 mods going stand alone that much to be honest. Quite frankly I don't see the point.
Well, how many people in the world have FS2, and how many places are there where you can get a copy? Not many, I'd wager, and only a small percentage of those are likely to still be playing enough to stumble onto here (and I'd wager most of those have already).... if we want to attract new people & even get publicity for our wee community, then we need something like this that we can use as a long-term base.
I think most of us mod as much for other people as ourselves, after all. I can make a ship or campaign or whatnot, but only about 100 or so at most will ever see or play it. Let them get the full monty for free, and I reckon that amount would at least double.
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Originally posted by KARMA
could you post some examples plz?
On my own I've heard about torque and seen something about truevision, dunno exactly about the first one but TV didn't seem to me all that good.
Torque's actually a pretty good example of a licenseable engine...IIRC, the price was something around $100 for the source code, I'm not sure if that allowed you to sell what you did with it.
I've not heard of any recent arcade-space-sim engines being openly licenseable, but then, I haven't really been looking.
However AFAIK you can sell all the artwork and stuff that you make, you just can't provide the fs2_open exe. *Bumps open a source code file*
/*
* Copyright (C) Volition, Inc. 1999. All rights reserved.
*
* All source code herein is the property of Volition, Inc. You may not sell
* or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the
* source.
*
*/
The question is the definition of 'commercially exploit'. As long as you make something that doesn't use specific SCP features, you're in the clear as far as selling it goes. But if you sold something that took advantage of SCP features, you're in a grey area. You'd not be directly commercially exploiting the source if the exe's not on a CD, but it could be considered to be indirectly exploiting the source. (There's probably a court precedence on this somewhere.)
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Originally posted by Tolwyn
. Loaf, the Uber-FS2hater, does not play any mods. And he has no love for WCS either ;7
EDIT: Take a look at this (http://wcnews.com/loaf/saga-frigate.pdf) . :D
It's funny how he blatantly ignores everyone who explains the ambient-factor setting to him.
And for some reason he argues like this:
unidirectional, more realistic/dramatic light (a la FSO) = no lighting
omnidirectional light without any actual shading (a la WC) = A1-supar!!
I don't know what FS has ever done to him....
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Please please don't get started on this again. The WC community feels that the FS franchise killed space sims as a genre and nothing you or I say will change the minds of some of them. Just leave them be please.
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Originally posted by Tolwyn
EDIT: Take a look at this (http://wcnews.com/loaf/saga-frigate.pdf) . :D
I don't get it - what is this supposed to be for/about?
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
The question is the definition of 'commercially exploit'. As long as you make something that doesn't use specific SCP features, you're in the clear as far as selling it goes. But if you sold something that took advantage of SCP features, you're in a grey area. You'd not be directly commercially exploiting the source if the exe's not on a CD, but it could be considered to be indirectly exploiting the source. (There's probably a court precedence on this somewhere.)
I'm guessing that "things you create based on the source" only applies to actual code, not models that use the code. One reason is that the license is embedded in the source code files, which fewer people have access to than the binary files.
Another reason is that if you apply it to models, you could apply it to model editors as well. AFAIK there's nothing preventing Heiko Herrmann or Kazan or Bobboau from selling their respective POF editors to the community. However all three of them needed the POF specification (which is dependent on the code) to create their program.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Well, how many people in the world have FS2, and how many places are there where you can get a copy? Not many, I'd wager, and only a small percentage of those are likely to still be playing enough to stumble onto here (and I'd wager most of those have already).... if we want to attract new people & even get publicity for our wee community, then we need something like this that we can use as a long-term base.
I think most of us mod as much for other people as ourselves, after all. I can make a ship or campaign or whatnot, but only about 100 or so at most will ever see or play it. Let them get the full monty for free, and I reckon that amount would at least double.
Exactly. So if you're going to the trouble of including a bunch of FS2 files (illegally) in your stand alone why not just go the whole hog, club together with other people who also want to put up stand alones and just put up FS2 for download instead?
That way they get your mod AND freespace to play. Fractux has a new build of HotU that fits in the contents of both Sparky_vp files and a few other important files into about 300MB. Why not simply make sure that your mod works with that instead of making a stand alone?
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Originally posted by karajorma
Exactly. So if you're going to the trouble of including a bunch of FS2 files (illegally) in your stand alone why not just go the whole hog, club together with other people who also want to put up stand alones and just put up FS2 for download instead?
That way they get your mod AND freespace to play. Fractux has a new build of HotU that fits in the contents of both Sparky_vp files and a few other important files into about 300MB. Why not simply make sure that your mod works with that instead of making a stand alone?
Because we can't distribute FS2 as standalone through the 'media channels'; it's not legal to download. Do something standalone, and we have a good chance of getting proper mentions through the gaming press; just look at Grand Prix Legends, for example. FS2 is an old game, people are going to hold that against it - unfair as that may be. Something shiny and brand new, that is more likely to pique curiousity. Something which has mod support, and the promise of further expansion, doubly so. We have that already in the form of tBP (and probably WCSaga later on), but they are handicapped by the copyright issues of their source material.
I'm suggesting becoming an FS engine community, rather than just an FS community.
(oh, and I'd point out that I've now almost completely stopped using :V: textures anyways for that exact reason).
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Well, HOTU is generally legal, so we can use that as a precendent to get the game on a coverdisk.
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Originally posted by kasperl
Well, HOTU is generally legal, so we can use that as a precendent to get the game on a coverdisk.
speaking of which: Freespace 2 WAS on the Gamestar (http://www.gamestar.de) cover disc a few months back. Sadly they were unaware of the great job you guys have accomplished. What readers got was basically the game that was released back in 1999
@aldo: somebody still has to redo the complete interface, then the game can be truly called stand alone ;)
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Noone can legally make a game with this source code an sell it. Period. The license under which the code was released is explicit in this.
And HOTU is NOT generally legal. They strive to be, but, at the end of the day, they have not (to my knowledge) been granted permission to redistribute. They are technically in violation of some the EULA. It's one of those grey areas though, if someone cared enough to sue, then that means someone would care at some level, which means we could get direct answers to the distribution questions from some human being.
If folks want to make a game from scratch, standalone, license an engine. TGE makes a great starting place and is cheap and multiplatform. There are others, some free, some more expensive, some less. Making games is hard work. if you are going to work that hard, there should be the possibility of reward at the end of the endeavor.
Torque Game Engine and Torque Shader Engine are popular indie development tools: http://www.garagegames.com I made a tech prototype of "Freespace Forever" back before hte source was released in a day based on that source. Kazan wanted to write an engine from scratch (hence ultimately, Ferrium).
Let me reiterate: There is no possibility of making a commercial game with SCP. None. Not until someone in authority changes the license under which this code was released.
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Who's talking about a commercial game? I'm not.....
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I'm suggesting becoming an FS engine community, rather than just an FS community.
In which case what we should do is make a stand alone package and distribute mods for it. We can include FS2 as a mod for that package. I'm okay with that idea.
As I keep saying what I don't want to see is every campaign wasting disk space releasing stand alone's just because they can. What we need is one central download that everyone uses.
Which oddly enough answers the question I posed in my first post on the topic :D
The download would consist of files from the media vp and the interface graphics along with the latest version of FS2_Open. The package would be upgradable to a full version of FS2 which had all the files FS2 does (although maybe not in exactly the same VP files). All future gamess could be played as mods of this package (even things like TBP).
If that's what you're suggesting I'm 100% behind it.
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Originally posted by karajorma
In which case what we should do is make a stand alone package and distribute mods for it. We can include FS2 as a mod for that package. I'm okay with that idea.
As I keep saying what I don't want to see is every campaign wasting disk space releasing stand alone's just because they can. What we need is one central download that everyone uses.
Which oddly enough answers the question I posed in my first post on the topic :D
The download would consist of files from the media vp and the interface graphics along with the latest version of FS2_Open. The package would be upgradable to a full version of FS2 which had all the files FS2 does (although maybe not in exactly the same VP files). All future gamess could be played as mods of this package (even things like TBP).
If that's what you're suggesting I'm 100% behind it.
That's pretty much what I meant, and what I think Nuke meant; our one problem is interface art, really - it's a pain to make, and it's the one main thing we need to replace to allow some freeware distribution.... what I'm wondering is, could someone write up a cheat sheet of how to use the demo to get a very basic version of FS_open (by that I mean the SCP exe, and maybe some minimal mod such as 2 ships, 2 weapons and a mission), and then we could use that as a basis for more elaborate TCs which also act as a freeware game to bring people into the community.
It's a shame we don't have a set of generic interface templates, unfortunately.
I'm actually thinking of what the Grand Prix Legends community did, specifically - especially as that got into PC gamer (i.e. mass media coverage).
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I made an incomplete list awhile back, which Inqui alluded to, but that was based on TBP R1, I think.
The interface is completely convoluted, though. 1000 files and many of them are the same thing, with minor alterations, repeated over...and over....and over....and over....again. There's no standardized template, the files are custom-built based on the interface screen.
The best I think anyone can do is group the prefixed images with their associated hotspot and background images and label what 'room' they're for.
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I seem to recall someone worked on a major UI overhaul.
The thing that comes to my mind is moving all the position data of interfaces to a table.
IMHO the current system is way to wasteful - instead using the cheap million image files, nowadays it would be way more efficient to apply some effect files to a base set of images.
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It's a shame we can't move to some xml-esque tbl system where you simply define position and link (i.e. function call) for the screen.... but I suspect that would be a complete nightmare to code.`
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I do not know really... Kaz was going to work on the feature, but I have not seen him lately.
Demo package lacks a lot of interface files, mostly needed are those for the tech room :(
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Nightmare? Not really. All you need is a function to load the default values and then parse the TBL. And make a crapload of hardcoded values global arrays.
So-mind-numbing-you'd-rather-watch-twelve-reruns-of-some-really-boring-and-overly-cliched'd-sitcom-episode-and-go-out-of-your-mind? Yes.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Who's talking about a commercial game? I'm not.....
well, I wouldn't dislike it, but talking about fs2 mods a standalone is the way to go. Unfourtunately most mods use fs2 artwork, which doesn't mean only the interface, but also sounds models and effects, so just making a new interface won't be a solution, I dare.
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Originally posted by KARMA
well, I wouldn't dislike it, but talking about fs2 mods a standalone is the way to go. Unfourtunately most mods use fs2 artwork, which doesn't mean only the interface, but also sounds models and effects, so just making a new interface won't be a solution, I dare.
A solution in and of itself? No. But it'd certainly be a big step in the right direction. If we had the interface, we'd probably have enough existing mods that we could make a very hackish, thrown together, but [V] free standalone game within a week or so. I mean, apart from the explosions and maybe the subspace warp ani, pretty much all of the main ingame effects have been redone by LS, DaBrain and the rest. Admittedly, the textures are still problematic, but stuff like Venoms OTT stuff, Aldo's nightmares, even Flipside's Aesir show that, as a community, and certainly as certain, specific talented individuals, we're capable of doing this sort of thing. It'd just be... hard.