Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Goober5000 on March 14, 2005, 09:14:46 pm
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Among the many unanswered questions in FS2 is what happened to the Nereid. As far as I can tell, nobody has really discussed this (at least on HLP) so I'd like to bring up a few points for consideration.
1) Do we know for a fact that the Nereid was deployed after the last mission? The supernova obliterated the Shivan fleet, and Command may have aborted the launch, deciding that the hot gases left over from the explosion would be just as good a barrier as a collapsed node. They could keep their citizens in the dark about it, leading them to believe that the node was collapsed according to their original plan.
Also, if they developed a super-heat-resistant ship somewhere down the line, they might like to have an open route to the nebula so they could study it. If the Shivans managed to develop such a ship first, they could still collapse the node if they really had to. But keeping it open would leave more options available.
2) Here's one I thought of only recently. Even if the Nereid was deployed according to plan, it may not have actually collapsed the node. The command briefing for COTT2 shows the destroyer exploding at the Capella end of the jump corridor, which means the Nereid would have been exiting subspace as its bombs were being detonated. However, it would have been jumping right into the aftermath of the supernova. For all we know, the Nereid could have melted in seconds before any of its bombs exploded.
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I thought in the last command they say that the Nereid "sucessfully completed its mission."
I dunno though I guess it could be possible that they aborted the mission...
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Judging from the way Petrarch speaks during the ending monologue, I've always been under the impression that the Nereid went through according to plan. He probably would have mentioned something if the node had not been sealed off. Besides, the GTVA had no way of knowing if Shivan ships were capable of surviving in the superheated gas environment of a nebula; for example, if the GTVA feared the existence of other Lucifers out there, they would have no reason to believe that the nebula would prove any deterrent. I was always under the impression that they played it safe and closed off the node according to plan. Regardless of the scientific/strategic value of studying the nebula, the risk would be too great; besides, no ship in the GTVA arsenal would be able to withstand it themselves.
As for the command animation, I seem to remember it showing the Nereid detonating while still within the subspace tunnel; when it goes up, the whole tunnel squiggles and fades away. (This could just be eyecandy, though.) There's no real canon source one way or another to suggest that collapsing a node can only occur if a ship detonates while jumping into/out of a node; just because the Lucifer and Bastion accomplished it this way doesn't mean that detonating a ship while in transit won't have the same effect. Regarding the Nereid being destroyed by the supernova, remember, the last GTVA ships had to make it through the Vega node before the Nereid could make its run. Obviously, Command was well-aware of the supernova before you escaped, so they would have to be holding off the Nereid anyway. My guess is that, after learning of the supernova, and after the last ships made it through to Vega, they stuck to plan and sent the Nereid through to eliminate any chance of the Shivans getting through.
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Could a supernova collapse a node?
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Don't jump nodes require a strong gravitational force to latch on to at each end of the node? I.e a planet or a star? In that case, with the star nova and the planets obliterated, shouldn't the node be too unstable for travel?
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If the sun was at least partially in subspace at the time, probably :p
I'd say that Command probably DID collapse the node. However, I wouldn't put it past them to start up a concurrent Knossos program with the Terran one. Actually, I had an idea for a campaign where the GTVA did seal off the node, but reopened it in just such a fashion and established a base there, equipped with a Meson cannon and a heavy defense force to discourage future Shivan invasions...;D
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I think we asked this on the old VBB. The answer was "yes we should assume that the Nereid completed its mission.
It would have detonated at the Vega side of the node. Melting in the supernova is not really a likely possibility.
The Bastion detionated on the Capella side because that was the quickest way. Otherwise, the Bastion would have had to go up through several systems and then in through Epsilon Pegasi.
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Let's NOT get into the whole "do subspace nodes requre gravity" argument again. If that happens I'll split off those posts and lock them. This thread is for discussing the Nereid and the plans to collapse the node.
The Bastion going through Capella to the Epsilon Pegasi node makes sense, given that the meson bombs were developed at "the Hideki institute in Vega" and that's probably the only system where they're produced. I agree completely with that part. What I want to highlight is the Nereid cbanim which shows the node being collapsed at the Capella end. (See attached.) It struck me as odd when I first saw the anim - there's no reason why they shouldn't have detonated the Nereid at the Vega end. But assuming they had planned to detonate it at the Capella end, and they stuck to that plan, the Nereid would have melted before it exploded.
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I think that the GTD Nereid has completed the Mission.. when i'm remember correctly, than the Nereid waiting in Vega during the last Mission, so i thought, that the Nereid was blow up in Vega at the Node after the Capella Supernova instead the GTVA send it to the Capella side.
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Well, the original concept for a ship dying in subspace was that it would colapse all the nodes in the system it was in IIRC (hence the extra sol nodes in fs1)
Mabye this was a carryover?
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Originally posted by FireCrack
Well, the original concept for a ship dying in subspace was that it would colapse all the nodes in the system it was in IIRC (hence the extra sol nodes in fs1)
Mabye this was a carryover?
When you're right then they need only 1 Ship in Capella.. but they send the Bastion AND the Nereid to destroy both Nodes.
In FS1 Anims Sol have 3 Nodes, but the FS Story based only on the Delta Serpentis -> Sol Node.. also Sol has only 1 Node in FS.
It makes sense, in FS1 the Lucifer fly over DS to Sol instead over Beta Aquilae where a Node to Sol exist in CBAnims.
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The Sol nodes collapsing were retroactive continuity changes. In other words, they never existed. ;)
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After the Sathanas fleet and the nuking of Capella, I suspect that GTVA Command would be in a rather paranoid state of mind regarding Shivan capablities, and would collapse the node just to be sure. After all, if they can build that many Sathanas juggernauts and nuke stars, who knows what else the Shivans might be capable of?
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I think the only reason the Bastion exploded entering the EP node was for eye candy.......I'm not sure it ins't entirely plausible for the ship to explode whilst in subspace; I always thought the Lucifer did so....
Of course, do we know if a ship exiting subspace is vulnerable to supernova heat before it has fully exited?
Oh, and both end cutscenes definately say 'we sealed off the Capella system'; and I'd expect them to check that (i.e. trying to send a drone through or similar; offhand, I think collapse occurs at both ends of a subspace connection, so if the Vega side was unstable, you'd be sorted).
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Unless the GTVA has been keeping things a secret, I think it's safe to assume a node is collapsed on both ends if one end goes down.
(Wasn't there a thread awhile back that some star system in the GTVA was only 20 LY from Earth, and so therefore could've sent/received a signal to/from Earth?)
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Vega is 20 LY, but Alpha Centauri is only 4. They could have had a dialogue going by 2367.
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"Hello"
**4 years later**
"Yes?"
**4 years later**
"Is that Earth?"
**4 years later**
"No, sorry; this is Vega Pizza delivery. Would you like to place an order?"
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Still it is somewhat odd that no-one even tried to send a simple radio signal. I mean, it is still the homeworld...
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Maybe they did, and no-one was listening for it. Of course, they might not have radio anymore; it could simply be so outdated and obsolete they need to find or redevelop the necessary equipment.
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Or maybe they all died out like suggested sometime in the campaign, due to lack of resources etc. Probably turned on each other and had a last man standing war.
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To the officers and crew of the GTD Aquitaine. We have halted the shivan advance. The battle of Capella is over. We sealed off the system and our people are safe, maybe forever.
Notice he says that we sealed the system off not we did half and the shivans finished the job for us.
I've always taken that to mean that the node was sealed.
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It completed the mission. The final monologue seals it really.
Also, the story doesn't work if it didn't.
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Command could have kept it a secret that the node was still open. In the Twilight campaign, they kept the Ikeya-Gamma Draconis node a secret... :nervous:
The tech room says, "According to declassified transmissions, the mission succeeded." So Earth was communicating via slower-than-light means, and some of what they said is classified. ;)
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About the radio signal from Alpha Centauri, I've heard some theories that there could possibly be some sort of interference, such as some sort of interstellar gas or other material, preventing clear radio transmission. To me, this makes as good sense as any other theory I've heard. If Command had been getting signals through with no response, I don't think they'd gain anything by keeping that fact a secret. I've also heard suggestions that there was possibly a response from Earth, but that it wasn't exactly favorable. While this doesn't tie in with any canon, it does raise some...sinister possibilities.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Let's NOT get into the whole "do subspace nodes requre gravity" argument again. If that happens I'll split off those posts and lock them. This thread is for discussing the Nereid and the plans to collapse the node.
The Bastion going through Capella to the Epsilon Pegasi node makes sense, given that the meson bombs were developed at "the Hideki institute in Vega" and that's probably the only system where they're produced. I agree completely with that part. What I want to highlight is the Nereid cbanim which shows the node being collapsed at the Capella end. (See attached.) It struck me as odd when I first saw the anim - there's no reason why they shouldn't have detonated the Nereid at the Vega end. But assuming they had planned to detonate it at the Capella end, and they stuck to that plan, the Nereid would have melted before it exploded.
Maybe there's a difference with destabilizing the node from one end or the other?
In either case, it doesn't have to actually jump back into the system to destabilize the corridor. I don't think so anyways...it can detonate at the same time it opens the node into Capella. So the explosion from the supernova would be a mute point as the meson bombs have already gone off.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
The tech room says, "According to declassified transmissions, the mission succeeded." So Earth was communicating via slower-than-light means, and some of what they said is classified. ;)
I always took that to mean subspace radio chatter from the Bastion's aerospace group, myself. The Bastion was still talking to you while you were in subspace, so that seems reasonable...
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Originally posted by IceFire
In either case, it doesn't have to actually jump back into the system to destabilize the corridor. I don't think so anyways...it can detonate at the same time it opens the node into Capella. So the explosion from the supernova would be a mute point as the meson bombs have already gone off.
Maybe, but those meson bombs took a long time to detonate. If the timing wasn't perfectly exact, the supernova could have melted/fused everything before the final detonation stage.
Of course, the Nereid could have exploded in subspace, before it even started exiting the other end, but that doesn't seem to be what they planned on doing.
The least risky scenario would be to blow up the Vega end, but again, that doesn't seem to be what they did. :)
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Command could have kept it a secret that the node was still open. In the Twilight campaign, they kept the Ikeya-Gamma Draconis node a secret... :nervous:
The tech room says, "According to declassified transmissions, the mission succeeded." So Earth was communicating via slower-than-light means, and some of what they said is classified. ;)
Unless they meant the last transmissions of the persuing fighters/bombers as they delivered the coup-de-grace, of course.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Maybe there's a difference with destabilizing the node from one end or the other?
I tend to go by this theory. If you blow up a node then the subspace corridor collapses. Thing is we don't know how quickly this happens. The GTVA were trying to get all their ships out of Capella but the last thing they'd want to happen is for the shivans to start swarming into Vega after them.
Now assuming that the subspace corridor doesn't instantly fail (it's a huge assumption but lets see where it takes us) then the logical place to shut the door is at the Capella end. That way you can get your people into the corridor and close the node. They can then travel down the corridor and exit out the other end.
If on the other hand you try to close the door at the Vega end you run the risk of something faster than the ships you have in the coridor getting in. That leaves you with two dreadful choices. Blow the node and kill everyone in the Corridor or fight the shivans swarming into Vega and hope you can hold whatever they've sent through the node until you can get the civies out of the corridor.
A second reason is that if you send the Nereid towards Capella it could act as a backup should the Bastion have failed. If the Bastion didn't make it then pluging the Epsilon Pegasi node is probably more important for the simple reason that the Meson Bombs are made in Vega and there may be more in that system. So you'd only have to fight the shivans for long enough to load some onto transports (or another decomissioned Orion) and send it it into the node.
To plug the Epsilon Pegasi node on the other hand would also require you to get the bombs ready and then jump along this route :
Vega>>Deneb>>Sirius>>Regulus>>Polaris>>Epsilon Pegasi. You'd have to fight off the larger number of shivans who made it through in that time too.
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Well, the only time anyone has ever destablised a node has been at the exiting end - maybe it's as simple as that, something that means the explosion has more of an effect exiting than entering subspace.
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Except that the Bastion was destroyed entering subspace.
That said maybe once you've entered subspace you can't turn around can come back out again to make a bigger bang :D
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1. The Bastion was heavily damaged. It may have blown up in subspace with no crew aboard, so command may have played it safe, detonating at the entrance.
2. Command may also have decided to play it safe with the Nereid, detonating at the entrance because of the nova.
3. The cbanims show the original plan- i.e. to detonate at the exit- for some reason- to maximise ship-escaping-capella time
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Command could have kept it a secret that the node was still open. In the Twilight campaign, they kept the Ikeya-Gamma Draconis node a secret... :nervous:
In Twilight the Ikeya-Gehenna subspace node was kept classified. Gehenna was a system where the GTI conducted some of their research before the Hades rebellion. It's also how the Taranis entered GTA space. All data on the system was classified by the GTVA security council as it was believed that the node was unstable and transit was impossibe, thus it did not pose a threat.
There may or may not be references to such places in BWO :)
Anyway, it's more then possible that the GTVA had been maintaining radio contact with Sol. Sending occassional data packets. However, most of the information beyond "Earth is still there" is classified at the highest level.
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Originally posted by Ace
There may or may not be references to such places in BWO :)
Tease. ;)
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I've always wondered about the GTVA classifying so much information that would probably be highly useful to field commanders, myself...one wonders why they bother to classify data on the Shivans so highly: it isn't like the Shivans are likely to find out about it even if it's not classified at all. Data on Shivan weaponry is understandably classified, but using the highest possible classification on what we are lead to believe is a communications satellite? What about the Shivan Comm Node is so dangerous that it's classified Level Omega? Okay, I suppose it blows up nicely, but that's stretching.
So is classifying all information on the Mara Level Psi, which is presumably beyond the level of clearance that the rank-and-file pilots of the GTVA have, yet these are the people who need the information most. Or classifying the information about the Sathanas so highly when one ought to be distributing such information as widely as possible to get people thinking about how to beat such a monster.
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The GTI knew everything that the GTA knew about the Shivans. They rebelled.
Bosch knew everything that the GTVA knew about the Shivans. He rebelled.
Starting to see a pattern here? :p
But yeah they do seem to be playing their cards very close to their chests.
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During the Homesick campaign, the GTVI had a base of operations in a nebula, and such. This discussion has prompted me to go back and play the thing.
Way to steal ten hours of my life.