Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: gevatter Lars on March 17, 2005, 02:43:16 pm

Title: Shadows
Post by: gevatter Lars on March 17, 2005, 02:43:16 pm
I just found an old build that supported realtime shadows...but its is quite bugy.
Has their been any new development into this or a even finished build with that?

I liked the idea of these shadows a lot.
Title: Shadows
Post by: karajorma on March 17, 2005, 02:48:11 pm
Bob won't be working on shadows for a while AFAIK. That build was basically an experiment by him to find out what to do and what not to do when he implements the feature properly.
Title: Shadows
Post by: gevatter Lars on March 17, 2005, 02:52:38 pm
Oh to bad...well maybe sometime in the future.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Unknown Target on March 17, 2005, 03:50:06 pm
I actually used that build a lot, it ran pretty well on my machine, and added a LOT to the gameplay experience.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Flipside on March 17, 2005, 04:26:58 pm
Funny thing is I've noticed about a lot of Nvidia cards is that they are not happy with Shadow routines, you tend to get a lot of 'intersecting poly' flicker, this was true for X2, Doom3 and Children of the Nile to name but 3.

Oddly enough Bobb's shadow code worked just fine :)
Title: Shadows
Post by: gevatter Lars on March 17, 2005, 04:34:54 pm
Well for me its the opposite...X2 and Doom3 run well with my Nvidia card, but the shadowcode gave me trouble.
My build is called "fs2_open_shadow3.exe"
Is that the last one Bob made?

And I agree the shadows add a lot to the atmosphere.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Flipside on March 17, 2005, 04:39:39 pm
Well, I have a 5600 in one comp and an oclocked 5200 in the other, so while they are respectable (both have 512Mb) they are not exactly top of the range. Now I come to think of it, the most problems I've had is with the overclocked one, not the least of which is an incredibly loud fan :(

Yep, that's the last build, shadow1 was very pre-beta, shadow 2 had the Z-Buffer the wrong way round, so Shadow3 is the only one that works :)
Title: Shadows
Post by: Bobboau on March 17, 2005, 04:57:06 pm
it's what's known as proof of concept, I figured out what needed to be done, and how to do it, but in the process of learning I messed a bunch of other stuff up, and did a few things backwards.
Title: Shadows
Post by: gevatter Lars on March 18, 2005, 06:24:44 am
Any plans on returning (not now) to the shadows or did you lost interest?
Title: Shadows
Post by: Grug on March 18, 2005, 07:26:41 am
It would indeed be a giant leap for the graphics. As much as the glow and shine maps done.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Bobboau on March 18, 2005, 08:23:13 am
I'd like to put it back in, but it's gona be a while.
what would you rather have? shadows or shaders, cause I'm the only guy who seems to have the will for either of these.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Unknown Target on March 18, 2005, 08:31:27 am
Er...shadows, then shaders, imho.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Grug on March 18, 2005, 08:43:12 am
****, didn't realize shaders were an option.
I'm impartial to either. I wouldn't mind either of them being in. :)

I'm not sure what form of shaders your putting in though. Are we talking about HL2 style shaders? Including bump mapping?
With shine and glow, shaders could probably come after shadows actually...

But yeah, I think that was probably retorical anyways. :p
Gods speed Bob. :) Do your monkey thing :D
Title: Shadows
Post by: quadrophoeniX on March 18, 2005, 09:07:08 am
Shadows before shaders please, just simply because: shadows=> immediate improvement, shaders need models etc. takin use of it. Yeah, on the other hand, the earlier shaders are implemented the earlier we will see them being used in models, but as it might be known from my first posts I really dig the shadows build...
Title: Shadows
Post by: Flaser on March 18, 2005, 09:13:21 am
All those who beg for shadows: I hope you realize this is going to be a further resource drain, whereas the implementation of shaders will finally kickstart another leap just like HTL used to be.

...moreover shaders will bring bloom, bump mapping/normal mapping and lots of cool stuff with it....and possibly make the implementation of shadows easier to its just a rough bluff.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Grug on March 18, 2005, 09:32:51 am
It's up to Bob in the end, and by the sounds he's already made his decision.
I will worship him either way. :p
Title: Shadows
Post by: DaBrain on March 18, 2005, 10:43:19 am
Although some mods (TI, SF:SoL, BSG) might really profit from the shdows, I think shaders are the better choice for now.

I love bloom effects, the will make the game look mucg better without touching the content.

Just take a look at this:
http://d3glow.clanugsm.com/
(It doesn't really work with FS2_open. I was only able to see whats in the framebuffer a few times.)

It looks just great with Doom3 and any other 'dark' games (if supported). It looks horrible with HL.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Grug on March 18, 2005, 11:00:19 am
That's not really a large graphical upgrade though. It's more of a finetuning and polish.
Shadows would add significant atmosphere and could be very well implemented by clever mission editors.

But meh, its all kewl stuff to me. :)
Title: Shadows
Post by: Taristin on March 18, 2005, 11:16:48 am
I'd rather have shadows than shaders, personally. Glow mapping, and shine mapping make the game look excellent, and shadows are about all that's missing.

Over exposure and all that... well... it's nice, but I can live without it, if we have shadows. :p
Title: Shadows
Post by: WMCoolmon on March 18, 2005, 11:38:32 am
Hmm...bump mapping/motion blur/blooming, or shadows. Either one would be nice; I guess the biggest question is, what about the move to Dx9? If there's a lot of coding involved (ie ripping out the lowlevel DX funcs and reimplementing them) then we might as well have shadows to tide us over while DX9 is going in. ;)

I don't really care about blooming (IMHO,everyone goes "OMFG!! Blooming!!" but when it gets right down to it, by the time it's at realistic levels there's not much difference. It always looks artificial if it's obvious.). I can't live without bumpmapping, though;play Halo and turn on the flashlight, well, practically anywhere but over grass or tress and be amazed. :D
Title: Shadows
Post by: Grug on March 18, 2005, 11:49:17 am
I agree with you there too WMCoolmon. Especially the Halo bumpmaps. :D

Which reminds me, if shadows and bumpmapping are in. All fighers should get a spot light on their nose. That would be awsome to be flying along a large cap ship in its shadows, with a spotlight shining down below it. :D
Title: Shadows
Post by: DaBrain on March 18, 2005, 12:15:08 pm
Bumpmapping is nice, but keep in mind someone would have to create normal maps for each map used in-game...

Not even the shinemaps are complete by now, now guess how long it will take to get all those bumpmaps working...



I don't think bumpmapping will be very visible with the current lightning model anyway.

Add some glows and everything will look better.
Shaders will fix the intersecting problem I think.

Will all these nebulas and stuff blooming will look great.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Flipside on March 18, 2005, 12:15:41 pm
It'd look even better to keep it in darkness and see the bumpmaps lit up whenever weapons fire etc is happening ;)

As for normal maps, theres an NVidia plugin for photoshop which automagically makes normal maps out of Bump maps. Also, if I can get my normal mapping working on Lightwave, and I have the time, theres a strong possibility I can generate normal maps the 'professional' way, by converting bump-maps in Ultra-Hi poly models ;)
Title: Shadows
Post by: gevatter Lars on March 18, 2005, 02:52:07 pm
What would shaders do for us practical...I mean I can see the shadows quite clearly but didn't get what shaders would do.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Roanoke on March 18, 2005, 02:56:06 pm
I recall DavB poppin' in and siging the shadows praises.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Flipside on March 18, 2005, 03:33:21 pm
It was actually DaveB who made a request for them ;)
Title: Shadows
Post by: WMCoolmon on March 18, 2005, 05:29:53 pm
Pixel shaders would do bump mapping/motion blur/blooming. It can also be used for weapon effects and semi-transparent effects.

With Cg, I think it'd be possible to add pixel shader stuff to a table, so modders could add their own effects as well. I'm not sure what exactly that would allow/entail, though.
Title: Shadows
Post by: DaBrain on March 18, 2005, 05:50:36 pm
That is exactly what I'm looking for.
EFF made some really cool things possible, but togther with pixel shaders, the possibilities are unlimited. :eek2:
Title: Shadows
Post by: gevatter Lars on March 18, 2005, 05:56:55 pm
Mh Bumpmaps...ok like them.
Motion blure...well don't realy need it, never likes it except for movies.
blooming...what is that?
Half transperent things...also good.

Mh I think their is much more to gain from the Pixel shaders then from the shadows....so I would go for the pixel shaders first.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Bobboau on March 18, 2005, 06:35:41 pm
and shaders would be usefull when I do make shadows again, one of the reasons why I put it off, if things were a bit more organised shadows would be a lot easier to implement.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Deepblue on March 18, 2005, 06:45:42 pm
Huzzah for shaders!
Title: Shadows
Post by: gevatter Lars on March 18, 2005, 06:59:30 pm
I allways thought you would organise yourself or do you guys still do each what he wants and then wonder why sometime the code is unstable ^_^
Beside that I have heard rumorse that with each update the program gets slower...never seen that myself since I still use an older exe.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Bobboau on March 18, 2005, 07:02:10 pm
there was recently a dramatic slow down, I am endevoring to solve the problem, recenter builds should have better frame rates.
Title: Shadows
Post by: DaBrain on March 18, 2005, 07:02:11 pm
Actually it gets faster sometimes. ;)

Well, cool features need more power.


Edit: too slow...
Title: Shadows
Post by: MoodyB on March 18, 2005, 10:19:11 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Also, if I can get my normal mapping working on Lightwave, and I have the time, theres a strong possibility I can generate normal maps the 'professional' way, by converting bump-maps in Ultra-Hi poly models ;)


I might be able to help with any normal mapping issues you're having in LW ( used both the free plugins from Marvin Landis and Microwave at work ) if you could let me know what the issue is ?
Title: Shadows
Post by: phatosealpha on March 19, 2005, 12:06:10 am
I think I'd rather have Bobbau working on pixel shaders as an investment for the future then on shadows again - especially if, as it sounds like, implementing shadows before pixel shaders would require reimplementing them after pixel shaders for highest efficiency.

Though, to be perfectly honest, bobbau could do nothing whatsoever, and I could pump the resolution on the SCP to 2048 by 1536 and Bobbau would still give me the programmer equivalent of penis envy, so anything he feels like doing at the time is absolutely ok by me.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Bobboau on March 19, 2005, 12:29:24 am
I feel like eating a pizza.
:)
Title: Shadows
Post by: Omniscaper on March 19, 2005, 12:50:26 am
(http://www.iband.com/food/pizza_slice_large.jpg)

Here ya go.
Title: Shadows
Post by: WMCoolmon on March 19, 2005, 01:15:29 am
With pixel shaders, pizza eat you! :p ;)
Title: Shadows
Post by: Flipside on March 19, 2005, 07:35:39 am
That's why Duke Nukems taking so long ;)
Title: Shadows
Post by: DaBrain on March 19, 2005, 08:59:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
It was actually DaveB who made a request for them ;)



@Admins Is DaveB still lurking here? ;) ;7
Title: Shadows
Post by: Carl on March 19, 2005, 11:35:19 am
occasionally. he doesn't post much, though.
Title: Shadows
Post by: Fear on March 24, 2005, 05:43:21 pm
Eta on the shaders? *expected to get "when its done"*
Title: Shadows
Post by: Grug on March 24, 2005, 06:07:27 pm
Tommorow. ;)