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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Kie99 on March 18, 2005, 11:50:36 am

Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Kie99 on March 18, 2005, 11:50:36 am
After the weaker Ship won in the last debate IMO
Sathanas Vs. Lucifer

Which would survive a Colossus-less war against the GTVA, if there is only one of each?  Their supporting fleets are the same and the Lucifer has 3 BFReds instead of 3 Shivan Super Lasers, it also has its Über shield o' doom.  

EDIT:  The Über-shield o' d00m! is vulnerable to Über b33ms o' doom (LRBVas/Green and Higher.)

The third beam is either where it is in the cutscene or on the back of the Lucifer.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: phreak on March 18, 2005, 12:04:32 pm
Where's the 3rd BFred go? there are only two arms.

This all really depends whether beams would be able to pierce the lucy's shields or not.  They are alot more powerful than anything the GTA/PVN had in Freespace 1.  The Harbinger bomb couldn't even affect fighter-size shields, but the smallest beams pass right through heavy-bomber shields without any trouble.  The Sathanas would be made into an oversized carrier after a "Bearbaiting" style attack, then 4 Orions would be able to pummel it in short order.  If beams do pierce the Lucy's shields, then an attack from behind using concentrated beam fire will take care of all of the reactors on the Lucy.  Two Hatshesputs can accomplish this.  Also an attack from behind can also quickly incapactiate the Lucifer since it's engine subsystems are exposed in this manner.  This would prevent the Lucy from turning around to engage the destroyers.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 18, 2005, 01:45:54 pm
Sathanas rocks.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: BlackDove on March 18, 2005, 02:46:36 pm
A Fenris can take down a Sathanas.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 18, 2005, 02:50:14 pm
BS. A fenris can't take down a sathanas if there was a fleet of them. sathanas would rip 'em all apart, one by one, destroying them in 5 seconds each.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: aldo_14 on March 18, 2005, 02:53:38 pm
IIRC, a Fenris can take down a Sath if it warps in behind, disables the engines, and stays there.

Assuming there's no fighter escort for the Sath, of course.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 18, 2005, 02:55:18 pm
yes, but it would still take like a day or something, since the sathanas has over 100000 hit points and the Fenris has only 1 anti-ship cannon.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Carl on March 18, 2005, 03:22:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by PhReAk
Where's the 3rd BFred go? there are only two arms.


The secret 3rd flux cannon that was never on the model or used in-game, but could be seen in cutscenes.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Kie99 on March 18, 2005, 03:24:47 pm
The advantage of the Lucifer is that the BearBaiting tactic couldn't be used against them, since they are invulnerable to bombs/weaker beams, the only thing you could do would be to take it out in subspace.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 18, 2005, 03:24:49 pm
Carl is the Shivan expert. he is wise.

[EDIT] OOooooo, simultaneous post :D
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Carl on March 18, 2005, 03:28:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld
The advantage of the Lucifer is that the BearBaiting tactic couldn't be used against them, since they are invulnerable to bombs/weaker beams, the only thing you could do would be to take it out in subspace.


Beams go through the Lucifer shield.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Charismatic on March 18, 2005, 03:31:41 pm
If there was a screenshot or a very short move of the end of a game> where a fenris takes out a sathy all by itself (no other support jumpoing out b4 hand of the screenshot), that would make a interesting pic\movie.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Carl on March 18, 2005, 03:32:38 pm
just set it up in fred.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: aldo_14 on March 18, 2005, 04:07:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra
yes, but it would still take like a day or something, since the sathanas has over 100000 hit points and the Fenris has only 1 anti-ship cannon.


That's what time compression is for :drevil:
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: willy_principal on March 18, 2005, 10:11:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Carl


Beams go through the Lucifer shield.


Beams go through ANY shield.

The Sathanas is superior to the Lucifer in every way. More firepower, bigger, stronger.

The only thing good about the Lucifer. You couldn't bomb it. So you couldn't destroy its beam cannons (doing that with beams would be too difficult)
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Mongoose on March 18, 2005, 10:35:59 pm
I'll have to stick with the good ol' Lucy, provided that nothing other than beam cannons can penetrate its shields.  As was mentioned above, pull a "Bearbaiting" on a Sathanas, and you're left with a giant fighterbay.  You can't say the same for a Lucifer; those beams would need to be taken out either by pinpoint targeting or by just blowing the whole damn thing up. :p I'm not saying that the GTVA wouldn't be able to beat a Lucifer; they would, but there would be a guarantee of far more casualties than a Sathanas could cause.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 18, 2005, 10:38:40 pm
Sathanas is pwning the lucy. :D
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: FireCrack on March 18, 2005, 11:25:33 pm
Well if youre gonna give the lucy 3 bfreds then it.

But if you dont inexplicably give the ships random modifications i'd say the sath.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Bobboau on March 19, 2005, 03:04:48 am
for those saying a tactical minded finres captin could destroy a sath, you are forgetting about the sath's ass blaster lred, a deimos and a couple bomber wing's could maybe do it if and only if no other shivan ships were alowed in mission, but a finres would get owned in one lred volly.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on March 19, 2005, 03:47:22 am
A Sathanas would royally **** a Lucifer any day of the week.

And Twice on Sundays.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Kie99 on March 19, 2005, 04:32:24 am
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
Well if youre gonna give the lucy 3 bfreds then it.

But if you dont inexplicably give the ships random modifications i'd say the sath.


Random Modifications?  The Lucifer has 3 Flux cannons according to FS1, so in this debate it has 3 BFReds.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on March 19, 2005, 04:35:36 am
BFRed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flux Cannon. Thats his point.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: TrashMan on March 19, 2005, 08:12:45 am
Whatever he Lucy has, Sathanas would kick ass..

I'ts bigger (more imposing, carrier more fighters & bombers), has more HP, has more firepower (anti-cap and anti-fighter), stronger subsystems, more engine subsystems and can frag a destroyer in one salvo. We all know Lucy need 4-5 salvos to take out the Galatea.(and even with BFreds it would take two)
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: TopAce on March 19, 2005, 10:50:24 am
Sathanas. Need I say more?
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Blitzerland on March 19, 2005, 12:29:12 pm
Sathanas. Would kill Lucifer in a mere three volleys or so. Its fighterbay is so freakin' huge. That thing could launch cruisers! :eek2:
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: redsniper on March 19, 2005, 01:17:34 pm
Since the only thing that could damage the Lucy is an uberb33m it could just fry any ships in the area with such a beam (since it has 3 BFReds) and then just kill anything that comes by with impunity.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: BlackDove on March 19, 2005, 01:32:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
for those saying a tactical minded finres captin could destroy a sath, you are forgetting about the sath's ass blaster lred, a deimos and a couple bomber wing's could maybe do it if and only if no other shivan ships were alowed in mission, but a finres would get owned in one lred volly.


We used to test this. There is a way to avoid the ass beam.

Fenris > Sathanas.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: MicroPsycho on March 19, 2005, 02:10:22 pm
The Sathanas would wreck Lucy. Besides, I think the Lucifer and a Ravana is a fairer comparison IMO.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Kie99 on March 19, 2005, 02:43:21 pm
LOL @ MicroPsycho, please tell me you're joking.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: pyro-manic on March 19, 2005, 03:11:05 pm
I'd say a Lucifer would last longer, as it isn't vulnerable to precision attacks (ie bomber strikes to the engines and weapons). Also, it is far smaller than the Sathanas (less than half the size) but has 80% of it's hitpoints (800k compared to the Sath's round million). That means it's far harder to find, but almost as hard to destroy. It's offensive firepower, while not as potent as the Sath, is still vastly superior to any GTVA vessel, so there isn't much that can present a serious threat (except maybe a group of several destroyers, maybe a pair of Orions plus a pair of Hatshepsuts would manage it, if they could destroy enough subsystems (engines first, then beams and reactors) quickly enough, but the losses would still be significant.

I think the lack of bomber support would prove critical. The Sath is a more dangerous individual target, but the Lucy's superior durability is key - without bomber strikes to soften it up, capital ship attacks are more difficult as the target is at full strength to begin with (as opposed to being damaged and possibly slowed down). The Sath can be reduced to an effective hulk by a few bomber wings, leaving it as target practice for the capital ships sortied to finish it off.



Much more importantly, however, the Lucy is so much cooler than the Sath in every possible way. So it gets my vote purely on that basis. :nod:
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: TopAce on March 19, 2005, 03:49:06 pm
Quote
Originally posted by MicroPsycho
The Sathanas would wreck Lucy. Besides, I think the Lucifer and a Ravana is a fairer comparison IMO.


Go ahead, make that thread. You will see what people think.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Kie99 on March 19, 2005, 03:52:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TopAce


Go ahead, make that thread. You will see what people think.


Seconded!
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: MicroPsycho on March 19, 2005, 04:57:09 pm
I guess i wasn't as clear as I had wanted... screw it, I'll make that thread!
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Blitzerland on March 19, 2005, 06:30:13 pm
You crazy fool.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Hippo on March 19, 2005, 06:48:34 pm
Ignoring the fleet/backup part of this thread, and just going head to head...

here's more!:

Lucider forward armament: Shivan Super Laser (2x) 15000 damage per shot per turret= 30000 damage per dual shot and 10 second fire wait.

Sathanas forward armament: BFRed (4x) 80850 damage per shot per turret per 17 seconds = 323400 damage per shot per quartet shot per 17 seconds.

Lucifer hull= 800000 = 3 quad shots to destroy = 51 seconds to live
Sathanas hull= 1000000 = 34 shots to destroy = 340 seconds to live.

Therefore: the sathanas is 10.78 times as destructive per shot as the lucifer HOWEVER: the sathanas' 4 turrets COMBINED only have 58800 damage per cycle, meaning that it is only TWICE as powerfull as the lucifer should the beam have contact with the taget at exactly one point (basically, for any target with less than 30000 hitpoints, the lucifer would destroy it in the exact amount of time as the sathanas). In summary, the sathanas can bring more firepower to bear along its bow than the lucifer can, even with the longer fire delay, and is also 1.25 times as strong as the lucifer.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 19, 2005, 08:27:59 pm
So, I was right. Sathanas pwns Lucy. :D

uhh, hippo, how did you do all that math? awesome. :yes:
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: redsniper on March 19, 2005, 10:48:58 pm
it was just arithmetic :rolleyes:
I'm not discrediting you or anything Hippo, just... trying to curb Cobra's enthusiasm, I guess.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Hippo on March 20, 2005, 07:00:17 am
all i did was look at the tables/chart, multiply, add, divide, and multiply again... :p
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: TopAce on March 20, 2005, 08:58:03 am
Yes, that's simple. At any rate, thanks for your calculations.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on March 20, 2005, 04:23:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Hippo
BFRed (4x) 80850 damage per shot per turret per 17 seconds = 323400 damage per shot per quartet shot per 17 seconds.
 


This is incorrect. The Sathanas Does NOT spend 17 Seconds between shots. It spends 3 seconds. As far as I can see, the Delay countdown seems to begin the second the beam starts firing, meaning its 3 seconds between every full volley.

Test it for yourself.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Hippo on March 20, 2005, 04:27:22 pm
thats per difficulty setting i belive... The firetime of the BFRed is 7 seconds, and the firewait time is 10 seconds according to the table entery. therefore, it is 17 seconds...
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on March 20, 2005, 04:43:27 pm
Nope. On Very Easy, the Sathanas spends 7 Seconds between shots, when according to you it should spend 10.

On Medium, the Sathanas spends 3 Seconds between shots.

On Very Hard, the Sathanas spends 1.5-2 Seconds between shots.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 20, 2005, 07:12:03 pm
what about insane? :nervous:
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Hippo on March 20, 2005, 07:33:50 pm
were you counting cooldown/warmup times? I'm taking things directly from the tables, so if there are any contradictions, its mission descrepencies
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on March 20, 2005, 07:42:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Hippo
were you counting cooldown/warmup times? I'm taking things directly from the tables, so if there are any contradictions, its mission descrepencies


The gun fires, the beam lasts 7 seconds, then dies. 3 seconds later, it charges up again. Like I said, the Fire Wait countdown seems to start right when the beam starts firing, leaving 3 seconds before it fires again.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 20, 2005, 07:46:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Hippo
were you counting cooldown/warmup times? I'm taking things directly from the tables, so if there are any contradictions, its mission descrepencies


and it only takes 1.5 seconds on 4x time compression, .2 on 64x :D
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on March 20, 2005, 07:49:25 pm
I don't trust time compression. I'd advise you just stick with Normal difficulty, regular time. It gets the point across far better.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 20, 2005, 07:50:14 pm
Bah.
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Dark RevenantX on March 21, 2005, 06:16:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra
what about insane? :nervous:

it constantly fires nonstop
Title: Battle Of Shivan Caps. Round II
Post by: Cobra on March 21, 2005, 07:19:21 pm
*wonders what happens when he plays the last mission of FS2* :drevil: