Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Charismatic on March 22, 2005, 09:55:03 pm
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Hello all,
Im wondering your opinions on weither the collossus captain was right or wrong?
He sacrificed the lives of 30,000 (or 300,000? donno which) crew, just to stall the sathanis for like what, 15 seconds? What good did it do?
Where was the sathanis heading\what previous damage did it do? No planetary bombardments right?
I personally think the captain shoulda followed orders and jumped.
It is the biggest tragity in the history of FS i think. 30, 000 crew, dead just like that, NO PODS!
Other minor questions\debatable topics
1)Why no pods? In VA2, when hull gets low, pods come, but why no pods?
2)Where are the pods located on the colossus?
More good could have been done if he jumped and repaired.
(His engins were online..wernt they?)
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Replay "Their finest hour."
Pods may have been a moot point. When the collussus goes up, it goes up big time, and it may have been a situation where if you eject early, the shivans shoot you in the pod, and if you eject late, your pod goes down in the giant honking shockwave.
At any rate, given the sheer size of the collusus and the amount of time between the juggernaut's arrival and the collusus's destruction, you couldn't have reached an escape pod from the middle of the ship if you were in a porsche.
There was no choice to jump. The collussus's engines are disabled at the beginning of the mission. It couldn't have jumped if it had wanted to.
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I think the disabled-engines thing was so the Colossus would stay put.
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The Captain was a descendant of Hitler, thats why.
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
The Captain was a descendant of Hitler, thats why.
:lol:
Easy does it. :p
Maybe on another channel command ordered them to stay and die for no purpose. All for the reason that on the off chance that Alpha1 survives the super nova, they will question what happened for the rest of eternity.
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Colossus was a major mistake.
It was never truly meant to fight the Shivans. It was meant to scare the rebelling factions in the dark period after the great war, and to indirectly strengthen Khonsu's rule. it achieved neither.
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The stated purpose of the Colossus was to fight the Shivans if they returned...the Colossus would have easily overwhelmed a force as small as the Shivan force in FS1.
Besides, it couldn't scare the rebelling factions because nobody knew about it. Even Bosch didn't know about it. (I highly doubt he would have even attempted the NTF Rebellion if he'd known of the Colossus, because the Colossus single-handly shattered the NTF within a few weeks, which would not have been long enough for Bosch to achieve his goals in the background.)
When you consider that the Shivans were never seriously interested in challenging the Bastion's deployment, the Colossus' destruction was in vain.
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Lucky they were just fictional lives then eh?
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yes, but you're missing the point.
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Originally posted by Grug
:lol:
Easy does it. :p
Maybe on another channel command ordered them to stay and die for no purpose. All for the reason that on the off chance that Alpha1 survives the super nova, they will question what happened for the rest of eternity.
"psst. hey colossus."
YES, COMMAND?
"if one of the 88 sathanas jumps in, and alpha 1 is still alive, don't jump out."
HAHAHA THAT'LL REALLY SCREW WITH HIS MIND
"i know hahahaha."
HAHAHAHAHA - AND I'LL GET AWAY IN AN ESCAPE POD, RIGHT?
"uh........yeah.........."
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hehehe
yea i dont think the colossos was deployed to the fullest of its capability. it wasnt actually finished, id didnt have all its weapons systems installed. also there were all the great many tactical errors, and by the time collossus met sathanas it was not at its fullest capacity due to damage it had sustained in previous battles. at the very least they should have powered up the engines and rammed the sath to oblivion.
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I think we should all take a moment to remember that it was indeed "Their Finest Hour". The crew of the Collossus and the rest of the attacking ships drew off multiple wings of fighters, at least two cruisers, a Ravana class destroyer, and one Sathanas class Juggernaught. That's not exactly pointless in my estimation. The destruction of the fighter wings and the Ravana undoubtably saved some lives in terms of drawing off an entire destroyer and it's fighter compliment.
Now, that being said, there is something else we should all remember. Command makes decisions based on the particular mood they're in. Intelligence is a moot point with them, since they apparently don't listen to the SOC at all.
Snipes: Yes, that's right. Alpha 1 and I just returned from our scouting mission. There's at least eighty juggernaughts heading straight for Capella. You've got to do something!
Command: It's already been taken care of Snipes, no need to worry.
Snipes: So I assume you'll have forty Mjolinir sentry guns, plus the Collossus and six destroyers waiting at the node?
Command: Oh heavens no. Why would we waste such valuable resources? We'll just draw them in and send in the Collossus.
Snipes: You're not serious.
Command: It'll be easy. We'll just use our other ships as sacrificial shields, while the Collossus single handedly jumps each and every Sathanas until we get them all.
Communications Officer: Uh, command, what about the Bastion and the Meson bombs?
Command: Oh, darn. I guess we'll need a much bigger sacrificial shield. Send in the Collossus, a Sobek, and Aeolus, and a Mentu. That'll really irk the Shivans.
Snipes: And just how do you intend to keep them alive?
Command: By sending in Alpha 1, of course.
Alpha 1: What did they say?
Snipes: It looks like you really do fly more than one suicide mission.
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This is why i suspect it was a fake............
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i saved the collossus once, i didnt destroy that one lilith (baal i think), i just disarmed it's beam cannon and the collossus and cappela were saved.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Colossus was disabled. There was no way it could have escaped even if they had wanted to. Command orders them to get out and rather than remind them that he can't the Captain seizes his chance to get a posthumous medal and a bigger widows pension by appearing to have done a brave and noble thing.
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I think the disabled-engines thing was so the Colossus would stay put.
I doubt it. Giving it no waypoints would have had pretty much the same effect.
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Command: "Colossus! Get out there!"
Colossus: "Gies a mo, eh? I'm still on my lunch break"
Command: "There's a Sathanas approaching!"
Colossus: "Ach, you and your bloody Sathani. Sathanas this, Sathanas that... you're like a broken record"
Command: "It's right there! Look out the window!"
Colossus: "Don't gie us that crap, sunshine - do you think my head zips up at the back? I know fine well there's no big scary ship out there, you just want that waffle iron brought back...."
*looks out window*
Colossus: "Baws"
*rather large explosion follows*
Command: "Alpha 1! Scan that debris! See if you can find my waffle iron!"
I wish Volition had scripted FS2 like River City or Chewin' the Fat........
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:lol:
Originally posted by karajorma
I doubt it. Giving it no waypoints would have had pretty much the same effect.
Er, wouldn't have still been at risk for its baseball-bat-of-doom thing?
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Not if it wasn't ordered to turn around or given ai-attack-ship orders.
Unlike fighters capships generally do what they're told :D
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Not in this case. I tested the mission with the Colossus's engines all at 100%, and no matter what I tried (short of play-dead), it always turned around and headed straight for the jump node.
I'm pretty sure the mission designer just disabled it so it would stay put... that way, all the end-of-mission stuff happens reliably. This could have been done with a source code hack also, presumably; but maybe that wasn't an option.
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[OT]
Had the Colossus been able to move, it would've been a far better idea to jump somewhere else, possibly near the main fleet of Sathanii, and start shooting. It would've lived for the next few minutes, at least, and still would've been a threat.
[/OT]
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Originally posted by Goober5000
This could have been done with a source code hack also, presumably; but maybe that wasn't an option.
Not that Volition would ever do anything like that, of course...........:D
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Originally posted by karajorma
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Colossus was disabled. There was no way it could have escaped even if they had wanted to. Command orders them to get out and rather than remind them that he can't the Captain seizes his chance to get a posthumous medal and a bigger widows pension by appearing to have done a brave and noble thing.
Which makes even less sense. I DARE someone to try and disable the Colossus (or the Aquitane).
Both have several engines (and the Colossus has a kazillion HP).
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As long as you keep up a concentrated attack, you can disable / disarm anything. The Colossus had taken an absolute hammering by that point already; IIRC the fighterbay was destroyed or clogged by debris.
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but they cleared the fighterbay a few minutes into the mission.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Not in this case. I tested the mission with the Colossus's engines all at 100%, and no matter what I tried (short of play-dead), it always turned around and headed straight for the jump node.
I'm pretty sure the mission designer just disabled it so it would stay put... that way, all the end-of-mission stuff happens reliably. This could have been done with a source code hack also, presumably; but maybe that wasn't an option.
:wtf: Why on earth is the Colossus acting differently from every other capship in the game? It does have orders to attack the Sathana oddly enough.
I'll take a look at this later (I'm pretty busy today. I shouldn't even be here :nervous: )
EDIT : Bollocks to work. Let me take a look.... The colossus moves about cause it's given orders in about 4-5 different places throughout the mission. Obviously [V] planned to have the colossus moving about but in the end changed their minds and simply disabled it without changing the rest of the mission. :)
Now if [V] hadn't changed that one detail things might have made a little more sense :)
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Aside from the fact that even with the first Sathanas, the colussus does not use any of it's true fighter capacity, the tactical errors made are gigantic.
If the C jumped in behind the Sathanas, it would have been easy.
If the C launched all it's fighters, it'd've been easy.
If Command used a concentrated offensive, it'd've been easy.
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Originally posted by karajorma
EDIT : Bollocks to work.
:lol:Let me take a look.... The colossus moves about cause it's given orders in about 4-5 different places throughout the mission. Obviously [V] planned to have the colossus moving about but in the end changed their minds and simply disabled it without changing the rest of the mission. :)
That's probably it, then. I didn't dig too deeply in the mission before... maybe I should go back and take another look. :)
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The Colossus was the GTVA 'Death Star'. And oddly enough, the Death Star made precisely the same tactical errors...
1 : A Star system is huge, why did the only place the Death Star could appear have to put the planet between it and it's target?
2 : How many fighters did that thing have, and did the Rebel time their attack to meet the pilots lunch break?
3 : Imagine how the Emperor would have felt if he'd suddenly found 80 Death Stars coming for him? ;)
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Not in this case. I tested the mission with the Colossus's engines all at 100%, and no matter what I tried (short of play-dead), it always turned around and headed straight for the jump node.
shows that the colossus wasnt completely devoid of intelligence, lol
no matter how dumb the ai is, it knows it can't beat a sath
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Yeah but the jump node in question is the Gamma Draconis one :lol:
That actually makes them dumber than they are now :)
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Interesting, [V] planned on letting it get engins.
How was the C not complete?
Wasent it suspoe to have 12 beam cannons, 4 5 lazer turrets.. completely unbeatable by pilots, IMO, it take a very big pilot force to bring C down. I always thought if it was like sideways or in a better position, it could wipe teh Sathys ass clean, like it could hit it with 4-5 beam cannons at once.., instead of 2, and getting hammered.
I still wish they had excape pods. I never thought of the Captain- to be Heroic. It was the most stupid thing (if he had done teh same thing, even if it Had engins) to do.
Colossus running? Good.. lol. Ever gave the C waypoints to put it in best fireing position for when the Sathi comes in ?
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Stoopid Command... Obviously, the Collosus can take on 80 Sathanas, but it was just a bad coincidence that it lost against just one.
Heh... At least there was a big explosion for me to enjoy.
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Actually this thread made me think about the mission a bit more. Look at it this way. What would have happened if the Colossus had jumped out?
The shivans had actually classified the Colossus as a threat. That's the first time they've ever done that since they went after Tombaugh station in the first game. They sent a ravana in to take out the Colossus and when that failed they actually pulled one of the Saths away from Capella deliberately to kill it.
So what would have happened if the Colossus had ran? Well it looks pretty likely that the shivans would simply have sent another Sathanas after it. You want to try sticking a Sath in "Clash of the Titans II" and seeing how easy it is then? :D
So maybe the Captain knew it was suicide to take on the Sathanas but did so anyway in the hope that once the Colossus was gone the Shivans would only send minor capships against the Bastion.
Taken that way he's every bit the hero that the mission debrief makes him out to be.
Of course it could be that V had other plans for the mission and screwed them up when they cancelled all the movements they had planned for the Colossus and simply disabled it. Personally I think the mission would have been much better if we never saw the Colossus die but instead saw it turning to face the Sath as the player jumped out.
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Like I said, he could've jumped elsewhere in the system, maybe attacked the Shivan juggernaughts around the Capellan sun. The only thing I can think of that really makes sense is if there were some other forces in the system that were supposed to cover the Colossus - or maybe some sort of military force that A1 didn't know about. "We're pulling you out of there!" makes a lot more sense if Command was planning on sending other ships to cover the Colossus while it tried to escape, some secret task force, the evacuation fleet at CApella, or even the Cruisers guarding the Bastion.
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The colossus be damned, the ship I admire most is the GTCv Lemnos.
Lemnos here. We are going down. Repeat. We are going down. All units stand clear of the shockwave!
That right there is honor. They're all about to die, and all they can think to do is tell the remaining vessels to watch out for the blast. Selflessness to the very end.
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Pilots know shockwaves of caps dont really kill any\most of them. Fs2 has sheilds remember?
I agree w\ Kara.
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That's not the point. the point is the selfless act. I admire that, despite it being a game.
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Seconded. That quote really moved me. If I was the Captain of that corvette, I'd most likely be singing a different, less selfless tune.
"Ohmyeffingodweregoindown! I call the last escape pod! GET OUTTA MY WAY, UNDERLINGS! NOOOO!"
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:lol: :ha: LOL@ above.
Yeah, id either go down in honor, or do down pissin my pants (so to speak). Or id be soo pissed id be cussin up a storm.
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I'd prefer not to know what hit me.
Which is why, if in battle, I'll stay in my quarters... :nervous:
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Why does the colossus have 13 actual beam cannons even though it is supposed to have 12? It has six bgreens and seven terslashs.
The REAL command leader of the godly command was in a constant vegitative state, so the brains of the terrans went below pidgeon level.
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you know, speaking of this whole engine thing, why didn't the mission designer just put a "Stay Still" order in the initial order editor? that would have been a lot better. :nervous:
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because those commands don't seem to do squat.
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The Colossus was a nightmare to script around, I'm sure. If it is not on a specific waypoint path the whole time, then it's flinging itself around every-which-way and acting like the 3 mile long baseball bat from hell. That ship wouldn't have had nearly as many problems had its centerpoint actually been its center.
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I don't see why it isn't. What's the point of the offset center on all of these ships? I can see it on the triton, but the Colossus?
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Actually I've been thinking about that since working on the Sobek. From what I can tell, each pof has as many as 3 centers (not counting the eye). The physical center of the model, the point defined by (0,0,0), appears to be the point about which the model turns as the ship manuvers in-game. The second is the offset (techroom) center, and that one defines where the model rotates when its being displayed elsewhere (the techroom, the lab, ship-select, the target box, etc). The third is the center of mass, and it appears to be used for the point about which the ship spins if hit by sufficient force. The offset centers, as with the Colossus, are the physical centers, and my guess is that they are where they are either because of modeling fluke or (more likely) because for larger ships it allows them to turn without swinging their aft sections way around and instead only turning their nose to point toward the target. The hatshepsut suffers from this terribly, and from the minicap model it would appear that the same was intended to apply to the Sath as well. It got changed at some point if that was the case, quite possibly because the Sath may have to turn in-mission at some point and it's baseball-bat swinging probably became apparent. Though thinking about it, large ships almost never turn in the retail campaign.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Taken that way he's every bit the hero that the mission debrief makes him out to be.
But that misses the point: the Shivans were never seriously interested in stopping the Bastion. Though heroic, the Colossus' sacrifice, the whole mission, was never really necessary. And the GTVA by that point in time had more then enough dead heros.
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
Why does the colossus have 13 actual beam cannons even though it is supposed to have 12? It has six bgreens and seven terslashs.
There were a lot of turrets cut (look at the tbl description and all the commented out entries) - possibly for performance or balancing; either they found all those turrets increased the polycount and code load (for weapons fire checking etc), or they simply decided the Colossus was grossly overpowered for its intended purpose..
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Originally posted by Raa
The colossus be damned, the ship I admire most is the GTCv Lemnos.
Lemnos here. We are going down. Repeat. We are going down. All units stand clear of the shockwave!
That right there is honor. They're all about to die, and all they can think to do is tell the remaining vessels to watch out for the blast. Selflessness to the very end. [/B]
Thirded, But why didn't they send out any escape pods? :confused:
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Originally posted by aldo_14
There were a lot of turrets cut (look at the tbl description and all the commented out entries) - possibly for performance or balancing; either they found all those turrets increased the polycount and code load (for weapons fire checking etc), or they simply decided the Colossus was grossly overpowered for its intended purpose..
It almost has to be performance-related. Of all of the turrets that were cut, most, if not all, are the ones described in the colossus video as "laser turrets". The main cannons all remained, so effectively the strength of the Colossus remained unchanged from the high turret version. That does bring up an interesting point; the colossus has commented-out table entries to indicate that its turret count was reduced from what it was originally, but it is not alone. The Sobek and Hecate were also definitely changed (refering to videos and cbani's) and quite probably most of the other FS2-era ships were originally overgunned to start with as well.
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There's a substantial number of AAAf turrets removed though, isn't there?
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Thirded, But why didn't they send out any escape pods?
Not enough time, I suppose. It only takes eight seconds for a corvette to blow, and that isn't enough time to get to an escape pod. Escape pods are only used when a ship thinks it's gonna go down, like when the Aquataine was disabled in the nebula.
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I'm just going by the briefing, which makes no reference to AAAf. The old comments also include commented out primary guns though, yet all of those are where they should be. My guess there is that the turrets were renumbered after the extras were cut, and that the majority of the missing turrets were just of the terran turret variety. Turns out the colossus has almost no standard turrets, despite the briefing referencing 45.
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Well, I checked the tbl;
; 42, 43, 45, 34, 35, 73, 72, 71, 66, 69, 68, 77, 76, - AAAf
; 67, 70, 86 - BFGreen
; 73, 72, 71, 66, 69, 68, - AAAf
; 83, 82, 81, 80 79, 78 - Medium Slasher
There are 7 AAAf; by the looks of it they went from 14 to 6 to 7. There aren't any turrets > 63, but I'm not sure if the beams on those turrets weren't moved; there are more beams now than then, but they're weaker I think; TerSlashes and Green beams, no BFGs atall.
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Originally posted by Cobra
you know, speaking of this whole engine thing, why didn't the mission designer just put a "Stay Still" order in the initial order editor? that would have been a lot better. :nervous:
Wouldn't have worked unless they'd ripped out all the other Events where they gave AI-goals to the Colossus. Otherwise the first one's clear-goals would have cancelled it.
Disabling the colossus was no doubt a quick way to fix the problem of it moving around.
Originally posted by ngtm1r
But that misses the point: the Shivans were never seriously interested in stopping the Bastion. Though heroic, the Colossus' sacrifice, the whole mission, was never really necessary. And the GTVA by that point in time had more then enough dead heros.
Command didn't know how serious the Shivans were about stopping the Bastion. If they'd tried to pull the Colossus out though as soon as the Sath had killed it the sath would have started on everything else in the area. That includes the Bastion as well as all the civilian ships that try to escape in the final mission.
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Like I said, he could've jumped elsewhere in the system, maybe attacked the Shivan juggernaughts around the Capellan sun.
I don't see what jumping elsewhere in the system would have done. The Sath would have simply followed it there and killed it. It would be the same thing in a different place.
As for attacking the Sath fleet that might have actually made the shivans wonder why on Earth the GTVA would do something so stupid. Remember we don't actually know if the shivans knew what the GTVA planned to do to the node.
The GTVA almost certainly thought that it was something that the shivans might try to stop.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Command didn't know how serious the Shivans were about stopping the Bastion. If they'd tried to pull the Colossus out though as soon as the Sath had killed it the sath would have started on everything else in the area. That includes the Bastion as well as all the civilian ships that try to escape in the final mission.
/// the Bastion was far away and there were no civy ships in the vicinity. Just how much time did the colossus buy with it's sacrifice? 10 seconds?
I don't see what jumping elsewhere in the system would have done. The Sath would have simply followed it there and killed it. It would be the same thing in a different place.
As for attacking the Sath fleet that might have actually made the shivans wonder why on Earth the GTVA would do something so stupid. Remember we don't actually know if the shivans knew what the GTVA planned to do to the node.
The GTVA almost certainly thought that it was something that the shivans might try to stop.
If the Collie jumped out and the Sath folowed, it would have bought more time that if it stayed. Especially if it jumped as far away from the Bastion as possible.
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Exactly...there was no guarantee the Sathanas wouldn't just wipe everything else out by the node, while it was convenient to do so.
And I'm sure Command would've liked to get a closer look at what the Sathanii were doing.
And (depending on how long intrasystem subspace travel takes) crewmembers could've gotten to the escape pods and launched as the Colossus emerged from subspace - assuming they couldn't launch while in subspace, which would've been even better.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
the Bastion was far away and there were no civy ships in the vicinity. Just how much time did the colossus buy with it's sacrifice? 10 seconds?
Excellent job you've done there in completely missing my point. The Colossus wasn't buying time. It was sacrificing itself because they knew that the shivans would follow it and everyone else in the vicinity of where it dies would also be dead.
Originally posted by TrashMan
If the Collie jumped out and the Sath folowed, it would have bought more time that if it stayed. Especially if it jumped as far away from the Bastion as possible.
Who says that they would have sent the same Sath? They had 80 of the buggers you know.
I doubt jumping the Colossus out would have made the blindest bit of difference to how dead it would be 1 minute later.
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Exactly...there was no guarantee the Sathanas wouldn't just wipe everything else out by the node, while it was convenient to do so.
Which is what makes the Colossus' sacrifice so noble. They had no guarentee that wahat they were about to do would have any effect whatsoever on the eventual fate of the GTVA ships near the node. They only knew that they could make it worse if they did try to escape.
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Excellent job you've done there in completely missing my point. The Colossus wasn't buying time. It was sacrificing itself because they knew that the shivans would follow it and everyone else in the vicinity of where it dies would also be dead.
So why not go someplace else in the system where nobody else was?
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Because then they wouldn't be able to make a quick escape through a node if they had to.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
So why not go someplace else in the system where nobody else was?
Because, for the ten-millionth time, it was disabled. But, assuming it wasn't, they could've gone to the Vega or Epsilon Pegasi node.
However, that would have brought unwanted Shivan attention to the fleeing convoys. ;)
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Yes, why spread them out to attack convoys you'll never catch if you can keep them bottled up?
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Exactly. I think we should fix the mission and some FREDer release it, without the C being disabled, then we could make a campaign FS2ish, but if the C didnt die + had all its turrets, to the capella insodent..
Anyone think of makeing a fully complete (The briefing movie of it and its 45 L. Turrets) C for show? Would be interesting seeing it fire all its turrets and beams at once (Even if its croped) fireing at multiple targets (thus drawing the fire from the C).
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There's a max turret limit... although WMC just beat that with a hammer, IIRC.
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with a hammer? Care to explain that..?
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I bumped a couple of limits and have gone through the turret code and modified a whole lot of that.
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that is a good point that the Shivans probably would have sent another Sath from the their close orbit around Capella, i mean, if the Collossus did indeed jump out, the Sath it was facing would not have followed, as she would have had to recharge her jump drives. But then, another Sath would have been taken from around Capella to take out the Collossus where the first Sath failed, meaning that there would now be TWO bloody Saths roaming around the system and not at Capella itself, thereby endangering any other ship in the system, namely the Bastion. So there, the Collossus' crew didn't have a bloody choice about whether or not they were to be destroyed, it seems that they were stuck between the Proverbial Sathanas and a Hard Place...
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So new and yet he gets me perfectly :D
:welcome: Mefustae
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
So why not go someplace else in the system where nobody else was?
They'd have had to update their jump coordinates. In the time it took them to do that the Sath would have killed them anyway. It's possible they might have tried that anyway but the end result would have been the same.
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Should rename topic "The FATE of the Collossus", heh.
Command: So.. you wana die by one Sathi or two?
Col: Um, two sounds good.
Com: Well the down-side is we have 2 roaming Sathi in our home systems.
Col: Ok fine, one will be fine.
Com: Godspeed.
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Originally posted by karajorma
It was sacrificing itself because they knew that the shivans would follow it and everyone else in the vicinity of where it dies would also be dead.
//excatly. Wouldn't it be better then if it jumped as far away from other ships possible?
Who says that they would have sent the same Sath? They had 80 of the buggers you know.
//Perhaps they wouldn't. But they could send another Sath at other ships anyway, with or without it jumping.
I doubt jumping the Colossus out would have made the blindest bit of difference to how dead it would be 1 minute later.
// but it would buy one more minute. It takes time to chargew the engines and jump. buying 5 minutes is better then buying 2 minutes.
Which is what makes the Colossus' sacrifice so noble. They had no guarentee that wahat they were about to do would have any effect whatsoever on the eventual fate of the GTVA ships near the node. They only knew that they could make it worse if they did try to escape.
///You just said the Shivans would follow. How would thier escape make things worse?
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Originally posted by TrashMan
excatly. Wouldn't it be better then if it jumped as far away from other ships possible?
They were already at the Gamma Draconis node on the other side of the system. Exactly how far away do you want them to get? :confused:
Originally posted by TrashMan
Perhaps they wouldn't. But they could send another Sath at other ships anyway, with or without it jumping.
Why would they send another Sath to the current location of the Colossus when the one already there was doing a perfectly good job of killing the Colossus :confused:
Originally posted by TrashMan
but it would buy one more minute. It takes time to chargew the engines and jump. buying 5 minutes is better then buying 2 minutes.
And yet again you're making no sense. Who are they buying time for? My whole point was that the Colossus's sacrifice had nothing to do with buying time because it's pretty f**king obvious that they didn't buy any time whatsoever. It had to do with making the Shivans think that they could defeat the remaining ships with their bombers and smaller capships and letting the Saths go back to working on their suntan.
Suppose the Colossus had jumped out but instead of going after it the Shivans just sent two saths to hold each node instead? F**ked up the GTVA pretty badly hasn't it?
Originally posted by TrashMan
You just said the Shivans would follow. How would thier escape make things worse?
As I already stated if the Shivans followed them back to the Epsilon Pegasi or Vega nodes the Colossus would still have died and so would everyone else nearby. Doesn't that qualify as worse?
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Yes it qualifyes.
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Cripes, it's really a good thing none of you have a position in the military.
//Sarcasm Enabled
Yes, jumping to a node in an attempt to escape will *so* not lure the Shivans after you, slaughtering you and the fleeing civilians.
//Sarcasm Disabled
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No one is talking about jumping to a node. That wasn't physically possible. What we're saying is, why not do something instead of sitting there and dying? There was nothing to stop the Sathanas from jumping to the pitiful fleet with the Colossus and wiping it out, then jumping and taking out the Bastion.
Generally, in the military you don't order troops to do nothing in the hope that by killing them, the enemy won't send as many troops at you.
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I'm not even convinced the Sathanas would have followed the Colossus if the Colossus had jumped. The Sathanas' deployment was essentially a defensive measure, so they might well be satisified with driving the Colossus off.
Funny thought I just had: What if those juggernauts that didn't jump out in End Part 1 were, at least partially, the GTVA's fault, because the GTVA interrupted the supply line between Gamma Draconis and the juggernauts around the star? They couldn't get fuel or parts or something, so they weren't in tip-top shape and malfunctioned or ran out of power when they tried to both keep the star-nuker active and activate their subspace drives.
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^neat theory, furthermore mabye they didnt instend to even collapse the star!
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why would the sathani jump out of the area if they are going to die from the explosion anyway? it makes no logical sense!
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/cliche pretentiously "intellectual" response...
Who says the Shivans are completely logical, by human (or Vasudan) standards?
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
why would the sathani jump out of the area if they are going to die from the explosion anyway? it makes no logical sense!
Maybe they jumped to the extreme edge of the system - or can remain in subspace for long periods of time.
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Wow, what a jump, we've gone from "was the Collossus staying and dying the right thing to do", to "was the Collossus staying and dying the NOBLE thing to do", to "why the hell didn't the Collossus just jump away", to "did the Sathani get left behind because of their own error or human intervention", and finally to "what did those Sathani do anyway?!?".
Talk about thread hijacking! Yeesh!
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Mefustae : This is pretty mild by this boards standards :D You've got to remember that we've been talking about this stuff since FS2 was released so it's easy for the topic to drift to closely related things. :)
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
No one is talking about jumping to a node. That wasn't physically possible. What we're saying is, why not do something instead of sitting there and dying? There was nothing to stop the Sathanas from jumping to the pitiful fleet with the Colossus and wiping it out, then jumping and taking out the Bastion.
Generally, in the military you don't order troops to do nothing in the hope that by killing them, the enemy won't send as many troops at you.
As I said before they probably would have been happy to jump out. Do we know how long it takes to change the jump co-ordinates though? For all we know it takes a while to plot a course like that if you don't have any kind of backup plot already done.
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Yeah, it's not like we're talking about frankfurters or something. :p
As I said before they probably would have been happy to jump out. Do we know how long it takes to change the jump co-ordinates though? For all we know it takes a while to plot a course like that if you don't have any kind of backup plot already done.
Well, you'd think as the second-most-important GTVA asset in the system (Alpha 1 or the Bastion would be first), you'd think they'd have some way of escape in the event that the Shivans sent one of their eighty-eight Sathanases in the system to destroy it. Something besides turning towards the Gamma Draconis node and thrusting for a half hour, or jumping to one of the nodes they were trying to distract the Shivans from.
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And what would that have been? Seriously. Cause I can't think of a damn thing that would have made a difference if the Shivans had decided to kill the Colossus.
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As I said before they probably would have been happy to jump out. Do we know how long it takes to change the jump co-ordinates though? For all we know it takes a while to plot a course like that if you don't have any kind of backup plot already done.
Well... In FS2, people can repair a dammaged engine (Aquitaine) in two minutes...
And I think that this is a HUGE Engine..
And I don't think that they just have to replace a fuse...
So why should the calculations for a new coordinate take so long on those futuristic Computers? ;)
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Because you want to make sure you don't emerge in the centre of a star.
People tend to double check for little things like that :D
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Originally posted by karajorma
They were already at the Gamma Draconis node on the other side of the system. Exactly how far away do you want them to get? :confused:
A jump node isn't always on the edge of a system, so the Colossus could probably jump beyond the node, although if it had jumped out then the 1st Sath (Sathanas 17 on most people's games.) would have probably stayed around to kill the [voice=dripping with sarcasm]fleet[/voice], and the Shivans would have sent another Sathanas from the star after the Colossus.
Why would they send another Sath to the current location of the Colossus when the one already there was doing a perfectly good job of killing the Colossus :confused:
And yet again you're making no sense. Who are they buying time for? My whole point was that the Colossus's sacrifice had nothing to do with buying time because it's pretty f**king obvious that they didn't buy any time whatsoever. It had to do with making the Shivans think that they could defeat the remaining ships with their bombers and smaller capships and letting the Saths go back to working on their suntan.
Suppose the Colossus had jumped out but instead of going after it the Shivans just sent two saths to hold each node instead? F**ked up the GTVA pretty badly hasn't it?
Beta 1: We're hurting sir, they sent in every damn bomber in the Shivan armada.
*2 Saths jump in*
Baston Dies cutscene is a little different[/B]
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
A jump node isn't always on the edge of a system, so the Colossus could probably jump beyond the node, although if it had jumped out then the 1st Sath (Sathanas 17 on most people's games.) would have probably stayed around to kill the [voice=dripping with sarcasm]fleet[/voice], and the Shivans would have sent another Sathanas from the star after the Colossus.
I know but
"Your mission is to create a diversion at the Gamma Draconis node. The operation here will be a feint to lure the Shivan armada. The Colossus and its group will form a battle line near the node. By focusing our firepower here, we'll draw the brunt of the Shivan offensive. Meanwhile, on the other side of the system, the Bastion will collapse the node to Epsilon Pegasi."
Besides in terms of subspace jumps there's no evidence that longer distances mean longer times in subspace.
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Offhand, I believe intra-system jumps are described in the techroom as instananeous anyways.
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Yeah but the fact that it takes the Belasarius a while to appear after it jumps out in the first mission sort of puts a lie to that.
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Hmm.... true. Ref bible definately says (nearly) instantaneous, though. I'm sure the techroom in FS2 does too, but I can't be arsed checking.
not that Volition would ever dream of contradicting themselves, of course.......
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25 seconds or so to cross several hundred million miles qualifies as near instantaneous in my book :D
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Well whos to say, the shivans Could spare 1 or 2 more Sathi? They probably needed every last one, and had one extra\sacrificed to go after the colossus. So the extra strain on the otehrs, led to melt downs and malfunctions, which could be the 'powered down sathi, that got toasted'.
Also, if they did 'jump further away' what good is it, you say?
Well from my point of view, the farther away from the supernova, the better chances of you and your ship surviving the little conflict, wouldent you say?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Hmm.... true. Ref bible definately says (nearly) instantaneous, though. I'm sure the techroom in FS2 does too, but I can't be arsed checking.
Hello? Luficer mission in FS1. That was alot longer than instantaneous...
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intra-system. :p
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Originally posted by Charismatic
Well whos to say, the shivans Could spare 1 or 2 more Sathi? They probably needed every last one, and had one extra\sacrificed to go after the colossus. So the extra strain on the otehrs, led to melt downs and malfunctions, which could be the 'powered down sathi, that got toasted'.
Also, if they did 'jump further away' what good is it, you say?
Well from my point of view, the farther away from the supernova, the better chances of you and your ship surviving the little conflict, wouldent you say?
They didn't know there was going to be a supernova, though.
Although either way, they'd be dead.
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If they needed all of them to create a Nova, what were their crew Not informed?
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
intra-system. :p
Originally posted by karajorma
25 seconds or so to cross several hundred million miles qualifies as near instantaneous in my book :D
following the course of the discussion
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Originally posted by Charismatic
If they needed all of them to create a Nova, what were their crew Not informed?
Who says they meant to create a nova?
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Originally posted by Raa
Hello? Luficer mission in FS1. That was alot longer than instantaneous...
It's not following the course of the discussion, because it isn't relevant to the discussion. :p We were talking about intra-system jumps, the 'Lucifer mission' (I assume you mean the end one) took place in an intersystem subspace corridor.
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Originally posted by Raa
following the course of the discussion
Several hundred million miles = roughly the size of a system. I was talking about intra-system jumps.
Originally posted by Charismatic
Well whos to say, the shivans Could spare 1 or 2 more Sathi? They probably needed every last one, and had one extra\sacrificed to go after the colossus. So the extra strain on the otehrs, led to melt downs and malfunctions, which could be the 'powered down sathi, that got toasted'.
Also, if they did 'jump further away' what good is it, you say?
Well from my point of view, the farther away from the supernova, the better chances of you and your ship surviving the little conflict, wouldent you say?
You make no sense. We're talking about what went through the mind of the captain of the colossus when he decided not to jump. He had no idea that the supernova was coming and even if he had then jumping away from the nodes leading out of the system would have shortened his chances of survival not improved them. So quite frankly I have no idea what point you were trying to make.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Why would they send another Sath to the current location of the Colossus when the one already there was doing a perfectly good job of killing the Colossus :confused:
/// Of course you are. You haven't read what I wrote carefully.
I said shivans COULD send another one if they wanted to at any time, regardless if collie retreats or not.
And yet again you're making no sense. Who are they buying time for? My whole point was that the Colossus's sacrifice had nothing to do with buying time because it's pretty f**king obvious that they didn't buy any time whatsoever. It had to do with making the Shivans think that they could defeat the remaining ships with their bombers and smaller capships and letting the Saths go back to working on their suntan.
//// Of coure they could defeat defeat the reamining ships without the saths (and they did that too) there were kazillion of shivans.
It is clear one single sath could destroy AGTVA ships more quickly and effectivly than a Ravana (ans the shivans would surely have their own losses), yet the shivans still didn't deploy a single one.
They could have allso swarmed teh collie with ravanas.
the point is - collie had nothing to do with the Sathanases staying by the star.
Suppose the Colossus had jumped out but instead of going after it the Shivans just sent two saths to hold each node instead? F**ked up the GTVA pretty badly hasn't it?
/// You couldn't know that. The Shivans posses subspace tracking abilties. Why would they blockade the node when they know exactly where the collie went?
As I already stated if the Shivans followed them back to the Epsilon Pegasi or Vega nodes the Colossus would still have died and so would everyone else nearby. Doesn't that qualify as worse?
/// I never said they should jump to another node. Just jump AWAY from BOTH nodes as far as possible. So no - it wouldn't be worse.
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Colossus - Colossal mistake.
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In a situation such as this one has to ponder the given facts, or complete lack there of;
1)The Captain of the Collossus chose, againt direct orders, to stay in the field of engagement to "buy more time for the Bastion", his EXACT motives will remain a mystery, so whether he did it to stall the Sathanas just those 6 extra seconds, or stayed there so the Shivans wouldn't have sent another Sathanas to get him, we just don't know...
2)We don't know the motives the Shivans had in creating the Subspace Field around Capella, thus we don't know if all the Sathani were need, ergo, we cannot say exactly whether or not the Shivans would have sent another Sathanas to deal with the Collossus threat has she chosen to jump.
3)We don't know exactly the Fleet Resources the Shivans had in-system at the time, meaning we can't simply say "why didn't the just swarm the Collossus with Ravanas and such", as we don't know if the Shivans even had that many Destroyers. We don't ever get an estimate on the size of the Shivan Armada past that of the 80 Sathani, and thus cannot base any arguements on that of the remaining Shivan Presence in the System beyond that of the 80 Sathani orbiting Capella.
4)The only thing we DO know is that the CO of the Collossus did indeed give the order to his crew to remain in the firing line of the Sathanas. We know that this action cost the lives of 30,000 Crew Members, and it likely saved the Bastion (evidenced by the fact that her mission did indeed succeed). Thus, one can only conclude that, whatever her Captain's motives were, the Collossus did indeed do the right thing in staying there, shown by the fact that the Human & Vasudan races still exist.
So really, someone shooting down another's theories based on their own theory, which is in turn based on other completely unsupported theories (such as saying the Shivans definitely wouldn't have sent another Sath because they probably needed all of them at Capella itself), well, it's just plain not nice. This should be about shooting out our own ideas and building upon them, not putting an idea on the table and simultaneously shooting down another's as completely wrong...finally, my apologies for rambling...
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/// You couldn't know that. The Shivans posses subspace tracking abilties. Why would they blockade the node when they know exactly where the collie went?
I don't think we ever knew that for certain. Although depending on their sensor capabilities (and depending where it was), they might be able to track it once it emerged from subspace.
Edit: just because the Bastion survived doesn't mean it was a consequence of the Colossus letting itself be destroyed. For all we know, the Shivans may have been worried about the Colossus going through the G-D node and attacking whatever was beyond the third Knossos, and if it had flown off, it would have no longer been considered a threat.
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They were saying how, the Shivans could deploy an additional Sathi, or more to deal with the Colossus or GTVA, while fixing the BBQ. I said, 'whos to say they could spare 1-2 Sathi'. Maby they had just enough to spare that one.
I also tied that in to the 'and the shivasn who were left behind and got toasted' discussion, in this topic. I said, maby the extra strain of missing that one Sathi, who was dealing with C, possibly made malfunctions or overheated the Shivan nova weaps drives, which cauzed them to 'stay behind'.
What was hard to understand?
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Actually lets forget about the rest and point to the two biggest arguments as to why the Colossus did the right thing.
1) The mission is called Their Finest Hour not Their Idiotic Mistake
2) Petrach never says a bad thing about their decision to remain behind nor does any other pilot in the GTVA.
Between those two it's pretty obvious that [V] thought that the Colossus' sacrifice was valid and heroic not stupid and short-sighted. Obviously they saw something in it that the rest of you are missing.
Originally posted by Charismatic
What was hard to understand?
Why on Earth you thought it had any bearing on why the captain of the Colossus Who DIDN'T know any of that would choose to jump or not jump out. That's what I found hard to understand.
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Or they didnt care and its another loop hole...
Those statments i made were not exactly on the C subject, it was on the sub subjects.. of the Shivans and capella.. which were discussed in a page or 2 ago..
It didnt have to do with the C, your right.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
You couldn't know that. The Shivans posses subspace tracking abilties. Why would they blockade the node when they know exactly where the collie went?
They have the resources for it. The Colossus had already escaped once. Why not do it? Most logical thing in the world to do.
Originally posted by TrashMan
I never said they should jump to another node. Just jump AWAY from BOTH nodes as far as possible. So no - it wouldn't be worse.
That's not any better though is it. If they didn't go to the node they'd be trapped in Capella with the entire Shivan fleet even if the Sath didn't come after them.
Not to mention that escaping into Gamma Draconis is actually the Colossus' best chance of surviving a little longer as it appeared as if all the Sathanases had finished arriving and they were right by the node. If open the mission in FRED and re-enable the Colossus' engines you'll notice that in fact that's exactly where it was headed :D
The Colossus jumping out of Capella actually would probably draw Shivans away from the Bastion too. :D
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Originally posted by karajorma
The Colossus jumping out of Capella actually would probably draw Shivans away from the Bastion too. :D
So that was its best option, IF it knew about the sathys. It would draw them away and be farther away from capella.
But they probably didnt have any idea of supernova, nor any thought of Sathi, beyond the fact that one was roaming twards them. So once again it has two Options.
1) Stay and fight (With or without engins).
2) Run to Gamma Draconis (With Engins).
Whats the chances that the Colossus would be in a better fireing position, if it had engins, by the time the Sathi arrived.
As in, it would go twards the Ravana, and the previous caps, cause it would Not know where the Sathi would come from.
--Would it hapen to be in a better position?
What are the chances of that?
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Personally, i always saw the Collossus as a big waste. But then the way the missions were done and how the story plays out, we never really see the C do anything that it was really designed for. We only hear about it in briefings. I would like to see someone make a mission where the C does exactly what it was designed to do (jump into a fleet and proceed to demolish said fleet). Maybe i will make one, if i remember how to FRED...
As for the rest of the Discussion, going by the strict facts of how the missions played out, i think the C should not have been used as it was in its final mission. I would have put it at the end of one of the nodes as part of a defense fleet to respond to any Sathi's paying a visit. But then, we all know that Command is not exactly well endowed in the Intelligence department...
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Originally posted by Dranon
[T]he way the missions were done and how the story plays out, we never really see the C do anything that it was really designed for. We only hear about it in briefings. I would like to see someone make a mission where the C does exactly what it was designed to do (jump into a fleet and proceed to demolish said fleet).
Me too. :nod:As for the rest of the Discussion, going by the strict facts of how the missions played out, i think the C should not have been used as it was in its final mission. I would have put it at the end of one of the nodes as part of a defense fleet to respond to any Sathi's paying a visit. But then, we all know that Command is not exactly well endowed in the Intelligence department...
:wtf: This is one of the smartest things Command did in the whole game. Read the thread and reread the briefing: "This operation will be a feint to draw the Shivan armada." If the Colossus had been defending the Bastion, the Sath would have jumped in, nuked the Colossus, nuked the Bastion, and jumped out. And then the GTVA would be up a creek.
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I'm not saying have the C defend the Bastion, I mean have it out of the system completely. Granted there would of been more Shivans around to attack everything else, But i doubt much would have changed. I always got the impression that the Shivans wanted nothing to do with us and only attacked when we invaded (unknowingly) territory that they were in. Of course, at this point in the game, we did not really know what they were doing, so i could be wrong about it.
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Well i agree with goober up there. It was one of the smartest things, to i dont see it as being super good idea. It was the thing to do, yet that also means, as Dranon said, command was never really that smart. So yeah, they did one decent move. Yet they could do a "Draw the Sathi attention and run for your life!" kinda thing to actually save 30, 000 crew. Or.. knowing their imminent fait, let most of the crew excape beforehand, and then run it with a skeliton crew. Maby 10, 000..
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They went TO vauda prime to Glass it, they went all the way to Sol, with the Lucy, we only ventured into Vasudan systems. Vasudans didnt invade Shivans. Vasudans were there for many many years...
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Originally posted by Charismatic
They went TO vauda prime to Glass it, they went all the way to Sol, with the Lucy, we only ventured into Vasudan systems. Vasudans didnt invade Shivans. Vasudans were there for many many years...
All true, yet they then left us alone for the next 30 years, when obviously they weren't all that far away if they could use knossos portals as they did in FS2.
I think they tried to conquer us in FS1, failed, and when they found out the Luci was destroyed by these backward races they felt it was better to not give us more chances to learn new tech.
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Bosch opened the portal, though.
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Originally posted by Dranon
All true, yet they then left us alone for the next 30 years, when obviously they weren't all that far away if they could use knossos portals as they did in FS2.
I think they tried to conquer us in FS1, failed, and when they found out the Luci was destroyed by these backward races they felt it was better to not give us more chances to learn new tech.
Who says they weren't far away?
It might have taken the Shivan main fleet - assuming the FS2 fleet is that - 30 years to reach the GTVA systems It might be quick to hop between systems, but if you have to travel across tens or hundreds of systems in doing so.......
Incidentally, on other thing about the Colossus (and the fleet to support it) - regardless of how it influenced the Sathani, it also acted to try and draw away the Shivan fleet from the millions of people trying to escape the system.
If you put the Colossus & it's supporting ships to defend a node, you'd also be attracting Shivans - every Shivan vessel except possibly the Sathani around Capella, assuming one of them wouldn't be retasked - to that single target; by putting the Colossus and a fleet in a seperate area, the Shivans were faced with a choice between a reasonable threat which was attacking them, or going to the nodes.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Me too. :nod::wtf: This is one of the smartest things Command did in the whole game. Read the thread and reread the briefing: "This operation will be a feint to draw the Shivan armada." If the Colossus had been defending the Bastion, the Sath would have jumped in, nuked the Colossus, nuked the Bastion, and jumped out. And then the GTVA would be up a creek.
Hello? He means positioning the Colossuss and hte fleet and the GD node to waste any incoming shivans.
Even the Sath can't hold out against a collie and a bunch of destroyer, corvettes and cruisers (+****loads of bombers)
they could just pick htem off, one by one as they enter. This defense line wouldn't hold forever, but at least they would take several saths with them, and bought more time for hte civilians to escape!
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You make too many assumptions.
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Originally posted by Raa
You make too many assumptions.
I would usually answer him but quite frankly I don't think its worth the effort of typing it.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Hello? He means positioning the Colossuss and hte fleet and the GD node to waste any incoming shivans.
Even the Sath can't hold out against a collie and a bunch of destroyer, corvettes and cruisers (+****loads of bombers)
they could just pick htem off, one by one as they enter. This defense line wouldn't hold forever, but at least they would take several saths with them, and bought more time for hte civilians to escape!
Let's list the assumptions, shall we?
- That the GTVA had a decent number of free warships
- That the Shivan forces already in Capella wouldn't either a) destroy said fleet anyways or b) simply turn their attention towards the civvies and wipe them out
- That the GTVA somehow magically guessed the Shivans weren't interested in the rest of their systems and so felt free to commit the vast majority of their resources to an already futile blockade.
- That the Shivans didn't/wouldn't send in a screen of cruisers, corvettes and destroyers to screen against any hostile blockades
- That the GTVA could even get enough forces assembled to blockade the node.
- That the Colossus could hurt a Sath enough to avoid damage (it took it ****ing ages to bring down a disarmed one, after all - and after that it was almost out of comission with the damage from overheating)
- That the Colossus+ships could reach a node - any node - in time to stop the Shivan armada assembling in sufficient numbers to obliterate the GTVA fleet in Capella
What've i missed?
Oh, there's no point atall blockading a system when the enemy has already transported in overwhelming forces. It's a bit like guarding the gates when the castle keep has already been taken.
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My opinion is that the C should not have been in that system at all. Big waste of resources, even though i guess it did help draw shivans away from the Bastion.
But then i have never really liked how the C was used throughout the Campaign..
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I think the idea of that mission was to make the Shivans believe we had something massive ready for them hidden in Gamma Draconis, the Shivans would then come and try to stop the Colossus doing whatever it was doing and go back to the BBQ.
BTW I think I have a different version of that mission to most people, the Sathanas that jumps in is simply called Sathanas, not Sathanas 17, and when it has finished off the Colossus it just sits there.
Oh yeah and for once I actually agree with Aldo :D
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I don't know why Sathanas 17 departs there... You don't notice it on the radar, the 17 makes it blatently obvious when pressing F4, and it takes a good 11 seconds (at least, last time i checked it, which was LONG ago) after it departs for the real one to arrive, which doesn't fit with an in-system jump time... Maybe they had an idea, and changed it... (like, they were going to be closer to the action, instead of just a background effect)...
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Originally posted by Hippo
it takes a good 11 seconds ... after it departs for the real one to arrive, which doesn't fit with an in-system jump time
Seeing as the Belisarius took around 15 seconds to arrive in the first mission, it seems fine to me.
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The 11 seconds are so it can take the D off the nameplate so it just says SJ Sathanas 17.
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Originally posted by Hippo
I don't know why Sathanas 17 departs there... You don't notice it on the radar, the 17 makes it blatently obvious when pressing F4, and it takes a good 11 seconds (at least, last time i checked it, which was LONG ago) after it departs for the real one to arrive, which doesn't fit with an in-system jump time... Maybe they had an idea, and changed it... (like, they were going to be closer to the action, instead of just a background effect)...
Or perhaps it's like the cutscene show(ed?), where one or two Sathani jump out before the star goes Nova.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
I think the idea of that mission was to make the Shivans believe we had something massive ready for them hidden in Gamma Draconis, the Shivans would then come and try to stop the Colossus doing whatever it was doing and go back to the BBQ.
I think it was a simple case that the fleet had to hold Capella and evacuate the civillians.... they didn't know the Shivans intended on supernova-ing the star (the most they indicated was they were powering up some super-weapon), so they simply deployed every asset they had to engage the Shivans on all fronts until a) all civvies were evacuated and b)Epsilon Pegasi was cut off from the Shivans.
For all the GTVA knew, the Shivans would have marched on from Capella and destroyed them system by system - they had no choice but to stop them at Capella, at least until they could seal the nodes off.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
What've i missed?
The thing that that blocade should have taken place after the first Sath was spotted. I was reffering to that.
I mena the GTVA formed a blocade at the GD-Capella node and sent oe corvette to blow the portal for crying out loud! What utter stupidity!
Isn't it easier to wax the Sath when it jumps in (and can't stop immediately) so you have a clear shot at it's behind then simply standing at the other node where it can charge at you head on?
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Originally posted by TrashMan
The thing that that blocade should have taken place after the first Sath was spotted. I was reffering to that.
I mena the GTVA formed a blocade at the GD-Capella node and sent oe corvette to blow the portal for crying out loud! What utter stupidity!
Isn't it easier to wax the Sath when it jumps in (and can't stop immediately) so you have a clear shot at it's behind then simply standing at the other node where it can charge at you head on?
Except you don't know the arrival vector for an incoming ship through a subspace node, so you can't position ships under that assumption. And GTVA command rated the Sathanas as having sufficient power to destroy the Colossus - and the Colossus was pretty much the only hope there was (note that by default it's armed with fairly weak beams). Risk the Colossus and lose, and you also pretty much lose any hope of winning what was then (seemingly) a winnable war.
Also bear in mind that the GTVA was still finishing off the NTF; there were still probably a number of ships engaged. And the Colossus' location is unknown; it's been shown to be reliant upon logistical support from convoys, a 'distant' deployment on the GD-nebula node might have been unsustainable, especially if Shivan forces were already getting in-system.
As the game clearly states blockades are not infallible (the NTF fleet is described as running several of them before their attack on the GTVA fleet in GD), it'd be a hell of a gamble to put your trump card in a logistically tricky area, guarding against a ship that may come at any time (recent or distant), from an unknown vector, with an unknown support force. Especially if the Shivans were able to slip through enough bombers and fighters to disable / disarm the Colossus (or even just weaken it) in the same way command intended to tackle the Sath.
Oh, and the GTVA also had blockades on the GD-Capella node, and a blockade line at the entry to Capella; none survived the Sathanas. There was a rally point set in Gamma Draconis - probably well beyond the node to avoid the Shivan ships entering there, which would be well capable of destroying any damaged groups of GTVA vessels around the node.
Incidentally, finally discovered the populaiton of Capella - 250,000,000.
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You should have asked. I could have told you that one from memory :D
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:rolleyes:
I've no doubt........
:p
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Hah.
Thats alot of people. Just listening to some briefings\debriefings using the VP View, i started to relaise how important Capella was. Many times civilians and survivors were avacuated there.
Sadly the shivans had a glitch in their dooms-day-device, and only super nova'ed it. Hehe.
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Ha...if the GTVA had any blockades whatsoever, the Sath wouldn't be at 100%..
and why make a blockade at all at GD-capella node? there's nothing in GD anyway..
wouldn't it be smarter to pull everything back to capella nad make a big blockade on that side?
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Because you could stop them before they get into Capella.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
I mena the GTVA formed a blocade at the GD-Capella node and sent oe corvette to blow the portal for crying out loud! What utter stupidity!
They sent one corvette to provide fire support for Alpha's defense of the freighters that dropped the meson bombs. The corvette didn't blow anything up, unless you count a few Shivan fighters getting beamed off...
Get your facts straight before you post. It might be a good idea to actually play the game once or twice before you post about it.
Were you pecenipek in a past life? You remind me a lot of him.
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Double Post :rolleyes: :doubt: :sigh: :no: :ick:
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Ha...if the GTVA had any blockades whatsoever, the Sath wouldn't be at 100%..
and why make a blockade at all at GD-capella node? there's nothing in GD anyway..
wouldn't it be smarter to pull everything back to capella nad make a big blockade on that side?
from the High Noon Briefing
The Sathanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defence we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the Colossus. With its forward beam cannons still operational, the Sathanas has sufficient firepower to win this engagement......
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Ha...if the GTVA had any blockades whatsoever, the Sath wouldn't be at 100%..
and why make a blockade at all at GD-capella node? there's nothing in GD anyway..
wouldn't it be smarter to pull everything back to capella nad make a big blockade on that side?
a) The GTVa had at least one blockade as quoted
b) the GD-Capella blockade was to allow a second line of defense to be drawn up within Capella, possibly to blockade the Capella node itself; or simply to try and contain the Sathanas within the GD system rather than heavily populated Capella
(remember the GTVA could not simply assume any blockade would fail; it had to plan on the hope of stopping the Sath ASAP)
c)One blockade = only one chance. (and you're assuming they could get enough density of ships).
Also, blockade b can learn from the fate of a.
And b can better organise itself with the time a buys
Any blockade upon the node from GD is either dependent upon assuming the incoming ships' vector, or risks spreading out the fleet and losing density of fire.
And there is always the risk that the Shivans use a forward ship to distract the blockades firepower, and buy the following Sathanas time; remember that a blockade is effectively blind until the target arrives, AFAIK there has never been an instance where incoming hostiles have been detected prior to their immediate arrival (except when tracked from the other side).
The intelligent solution, of course, would have been to destroy the Gamma Draconis node from the Capella side; but the GTVA still thought destroying the Sath could win the war.......
EDIT
[q]
We demolished the portal but to no avail. The subspace vortex generated by the Knossos device has stabilized, and the Sathanas entered the Gamma Draconis system. Our forces are standing by to intercept the juggernaut at the Capella jump node.
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The Sathanas decimated our fleet at the Capella node. Your bomber wing will be scrambled to destroy the Juggernaut's forward beam turrets before it reaches Capella. You must destroy at least two turrets to give the Colossus a fighting chance. You will be armed with the new long-range Trebuchet missile and the Helios torpedo, the GTVA's most powerful tactical warhead.
[/q]
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That blockade would be interesting to FRED.
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Very interesting to play..
Alpha 1 should be admiral after 10 missions. 10 missions =;s aprox. 20 blown up capital ships of all sizes, and about 50 downed wings of fighters 20 of bombers. Hell were a death machine. We do more then a bloddy cap. Except the colossus.
What other fighter or Wing for that case, actually kills more then 1 capital ship in its lifetime. Man.
Maby why command dont like sending reinforcements:
1)afriad A1 will mistake it for a "Hostiles Inbound!" (which you hear every other second).
2)wants you to get a higher kill count to give you a tripple ace.
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i forget which mission it is in FS1, but if you just hang around far away from the lucy, she sends wing after wing after wing of basilisks after you, i racked up over 100 kills on that mission alone. just me and my support ship out there.
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Thats because you could out maneuver a Basilisk if you were floating dead in space. :p
The things are giant shivan caskets.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
a) The GTVa had at least one blockade as quoted
b) the GD-Capella blockade was to allow a second line of defense to be drawn up within Capella, possibly to blockade the Capella node itself; or simply to try and contain the Sathanas within the GD system rather than heavily populated Capella
(remember the GTVA could not simply assume any blockade would fail; it had to plan on the hope of stopping the Sath ASAP)
c)One blockade = only one chance. (and you're assuming they could get enough density of ships).
Also, blockade b can learn from the fate of a.
And b can better organise itself with the time a buys
Any blockade upon the node from GD is either dependent upon assuming the incoming ships' vector, or risks spreading out the fleet and losing density of fire.
And there is always the risk that the Shivans use a forward ship to distract the blockades firepower, and buy the following Sathanas time; remember that a blockade is effectively blind until the target arrives, AFAIK there has never been an instance where incoming hostiles have been detected prior to their immediate arrival (except when tracked from the other side).
The intelligent solution, of course, would have been to destroy the Gamma Draconis node from the Capella side; but the GTVA still thought destroying the Sath could win the war.......
True, but what the hell was the Colossus waiting for? It WAS in the Capella, why didn't it join the GD node blockade?
Instead it waited for it to be obliterated and only then proceeded to engage the Satahanas with 4 fighters as escort????
And 1 big blockade is more likely to work against a frigging super ship like a Sath than 3 small ones.
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The blockade wasn't meant to destroy the Sath IMO, I think it was meant to weaken it sufficiently so that the Colossus could finish it off.
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Yet it was 100% when we faced it, right? *Sigh*
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Originally posted by TrashMan
True, but what the hell was the Colossus waiting for? It WAS in the Capella, why didn't it join the GD node blockade?
The Colossus was probably being held in reserve as a last resort; the GTVA wouldn't want to risk its best asset until a moment of its own choosing. Or perhaps it required rearming / repair after evacuating GD and/or the nebula (I don't think the C's position is stated after the Iceni escapes it; the last mission sees it in GD at the node, it next crops up in Capella).
It's not unarguable that it did join the blockade of the GD node, too; the command brief states that either
The Satahanas has entered the Capella system and engaged the Colossus.
The Satahanas entered the Capella system and obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it. We now have no choice but to send in the $f Colossus.
Which don't preclude the Colossus being part of the life of defense (but indicate it is possibly a rearguard element)
Originally posted by TrashMan
Instead it waited for it to be obliterated and only then proceeded to engage the Satahanas with 4 fighters as escort????
Actually, it waited for the Sathanas to be disarmed as much as possible; the Colossus was only able to destroy the crippled Sath by massively overcharging its beams, after all - who's to say it could have done so under intense fire.
And the 4 fighters thing is simply IMO to stop the mission getting too crowded and slow... Volition would probably have preffered a massive battle, but that'd be crippling on most computers at the time.
Also they would have cut down on the number of Shivan fighters to ensure the player had a fair chance of destroying the 4 beam turrets if they failed previously.
Of course, if the previous blockades were large (comprised the 'bulk of the fleet' IIRC), then perhaps there weren't many free ships anyways; the Sath didn't travel alone.
Originally posted by TrashMan
And 1 big blockade is more likely to work against a frigging super ship like a Sath than 3 small ones.
Remember that Bearbaiting was to 'give the Colossus a chance' and you can clearly see why Command would be reluctant to risk not only their best military asset, but a massive propaganda one. You could view the entire GTVA strategy as trying to break down the Sath before the Colossus could reach it (as the Colossus is possibly the only ship able to inflict enough damage to the hull in a single battle)
Finally, we're not taking several small blockades, here. We're talking of a task force to seal the node, a blockade force at the GD-Capella node, and the rallied ships in Capella (including the Colossus); it also means the Sath has to spend more time fighting to get through them.
The first blockade was also partly to allow damaged ships to reach a Capellan rally point and prepare for engaging the Sath (i.e. to buy time).
With a single blockade - even assuming you can assemble and organize them in time, and that you have enough firepower to destroy the Sath - you only have a single shot. If that blockade fails, then you've just doomed Capella.... and there are ways to beat even the largest blockade (simplest being sending lots of ships to distract, disable and harry the blockade ships in order to protect your key assets).
The single blockade plan might work; but if it fails, it is a catastrophe. 'eggs in one basket' and all that.
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Very good assesment Aldo.
I wonder what debriefing one of the surviving pilots got, (of the obliverated blockade) probably one of the 'you have failed this mission pilot. All of our ships were lost, and now weve doomed the terran and vasudan races to extinction soon. Our only chance is the colossus, which is recently getting its ass whoped all over capella.."
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*goes off to make high noon into the massive battle :v: probably intended*
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Full Blooded High Noon (http://users.cjb.net/kietotheworld/full%20blooded%20high%20noon.fs2)
EDIT: Right-click link and click save target as. Sorry
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Link doesn't work.
And I highly doubt the quality of a mission you made in less than one hour. ;)
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Dam, wish i woulda read goobers post before i kept trying to d\l the file.. *sigh*
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Originally posted by Goober5000
And I highly doubt the quality of a mission you made in less than one hour. ;)
:) Well if all he had to do was add a few more fighters and bombers to the mission and then tighten up the SEXPs to reflect requiring the area to be cleaned up before the end of the mission it should be possible to do all that in an hour :)
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Right click link and click Save-target-as, sorry, and I only editted the actual action, and added a few destroyers and corvettes, I didn't edit any de/briefing.
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thanks, il play it tonight; er when i get time, that is..