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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TopAce on March 24, 2005, 03:42:18 pm

Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TopAce on March 24, 2005, 03:42:18 pm: What do you think would have become to the Terrans and the Vasudans if the Shivans hadn't interfered the fourteen year war?
Which side would have won this war? How would the Terran-Vasudan war end? Would have been there peace as a resolution?

Thoughts are welcome.
Here's my theory:

Although we can only guess how the Terran and Vasudan technology could have improved, I strongly assume the Terrans would have reached a higher technological in the long run. They had the Avenger and the Apollo. The Vasudans only had the Anubis as their mainstay fighter and only a handful of Seth fighters.
Total exhaustion and economical recession would have led both sides to sign an armistice, but after a few years of reconstruction, they certainly would have found a valid reason why to continue the war. The continued war would have been even bloodier and more exhausting, which would only end after another fourteen-fifteen years of bloodshed with a total victory of either side.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 24, 2005, 03:55:36 pm: There would have been no war as there would have been no game.

:nervous:

IMHO, I also reckon it would have ended in stalemate and armistace; the Vasudan Typhon apparently was far superior to the Orion, and doubtless they would have produced their own advancements - we just don't see the full picture of Vasudan tech in FS1.

However, I don't think there would be a final war, unless an extremist leader took control of either side. Perhaps, however, local skirmishes and Kashmir / NS Korean border type tension.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Andreas on March 24, 2005, 04:35:42 pm: If the Shivans wouldn't exist in the Freespace universe in the first place, the Ancients would have propably wiped out/enslaved the Terrans and Vasudans.

If the Shivans wouldn't have interfered, then I would see the T-V war lasting for a couple of years more, eventually propably ending in some sort of armstice, seeing as how both the GTA and the PVE, according to the reference bible, were on the brink of internal and economical collapse. But the Terrans would propably gain an upper hand in the conflict for a while, seeing how the had developed the shield system, Avenger cannon and the GTF Valkyrie.

Just a thought, how were the shield systems developed in the first place? Doesn't one mission in Silent Threat point out that the GTI had been aware of the Shivans before the whole thing blew over? Perhaps the GTI captured Shivan shield technology (like in the mission Pandora's Box) at some point?
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: castor on March 24, 2005, 05:01:37 pm: Technological development goes (loosely) hand to hand with spiritual development..
Vasudans couuldn't exterminate terrans, nor wouldn't Shivans.
Remember: all: Terrans, Shivans, Vasudans 're students here..
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: BlackDove on March 24, 2005, 05:29:24 pm: If there weren't any Shivans, there would be the Ancients to take their place.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Kie99 on March 24, 2005, 05:31:32 pm: :wtf: @ Castor
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: castor on March 24, 2005, 05:34:06 pm: @BD
Don't you think they.. are? Someplace.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: castor on March 24, 2005, 05:37:17 pm: Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld
:wtf: @ Castor

Could you be a bit more specific, Kie? :)
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Charismatic on March 24, 2005, 05:55:15 pm: I think Kie is signaling about the religion and tech thing.
I think the [A] are someplace. Always thought it'd be neat to see them again.

If the [A] were inplace of the shivans, we (depending on their size) probably would kick their ass. Why? Look:

1)Ancients got WIPED without a fight, by Shivans.
2)Shivans had no shield tech on fighters.
3)We kicked shivan ass in Great W.2. We actually pushed them back.
4)Acients must not be as powerfull as they seem.
5)So that concludes we would beat ancients or atleast hold them off.

Why hold them off\beat them?

1)Acients did not posess any great wonderfull technology that was so good it stopped the shivans, so they had no trick up their sleev that would beat Terrans but not Shivans.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: castor on March 24, 2005, 06:24:15 pm: Hi Char :)

Yet we don't know how developed the "ancients" were/are..
They seem very developed. Most of the Ancient tech known to us is beyond of what we comprehend.
Look at the problems they faced at their times? They may have (been forced to) develop tech to assist them that not humans nor shivan would interpret as life..
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: karajorma on March 24, 2005, 06:30:07 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Charismatic
1)Acients did not posess any great wonderfull technology that was so good it stopped the shivans, so they had no trick up their sleev that would beat Terrans but not Shivans.

Except for the fact that they could kick the **** out of us 8000 years ago when we had nothing but sticks and stones.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 24, 2005, 06:44:49 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Charismatic
I think Kie is signaling about the religion and tech thing.
I think the [A] are someplace. Always thought it'd be neat to see them again.

If the [A] were inplace of the shivans, we (depending on their size) probably would kick their ass. Why? Look:

1)Ancients got WIPED without a fight, by Shivans.
Eh? The monologues clearly indicate that the Ancients fought until the end - why do you think they were working on subspace tracking? (the had no ships left to use it by then)

They also imply a larger Shivan force with multiple shielded destroyers, IIRC.

2)Shivans had no shield tech on fighters.
Absolutely no evidence to support that - for eithe the Shivans or Anicents
3)We kicked shivan ass in Great W.2. We actually pushed them back.
Um.... the Shivans captured 2 GTVa systems, 'decimated' the fleet (according to end cutscene), destroyed the Colossus, and supernova-ed a GTVA system star, killing millions+

Scarcely got their ass kicked, then.

4)Acients must not be as powerfull as they seem.
Their system spanned an area far larger than the GTVA, developed subspace tracking technology, and also node-stabilising tech. The former implies great strength of numbers at the least, and the latter 2 imply higher technology levels than the GTVA
5)So that concludes we would beat ancients or atleast hold them off.
Um, no it doesn't, because 1-4 are either completely wrong or simply unfounded.

Why hold them off\beat them?

1)Acients did not posess any great wonderfull technology that was so good it stopped the shivans, so they had no trick up their sleev that would beat Terrans but not Shivans.
Neither did the GTVA... until they found the Ancients legacy - the information how to track and destroy the Lucifer. In other words, 'we' built on what the Ancients had done - it was Anceint tech, not GTVA, that allowed the Lucifer to be destroyed
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: BlackDove on March 24, 2005, 06:51:10 pm: Good writing Kara and Aldo - a big WTF goes to the rest of you.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Ghost on March 24, 2005, 06:59:57 pm: Quote
What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?

Then it'd be pretty damned boring.

Yeah, I know, I'm looking forward to the TVWP, too, but come on... Admit it. There'd be no point. The storyline would be pretty stale...
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Kie99 on March 24, 2005, 07:24:20 pm: Quote
Originally posted by castor

Could you be a bit more specific, Kie? :)

I can't comprehend anything about the post. :o
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Charismatic on March 24, 2005, 11:34:12 pm: Well from what iv read into the Shivan Manifesto, IIRC it says we basically won the FS2 war, 2nd great war, for the most part.

The 'no fighter shields' was based on, oh. they did have shields in fs1. Hmm. Well from the shield strength, it seems it was recently developed, thus they didnt have it back then.

You are right about the ancients, sorry for my mis calculation.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Falcon on March 24, 2005, 11:47:34 pm: If Shivans didn't exist we wouldn't have Carl..........
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: WMCoolmon on March 24, 2005, 11:54:42 pm: Where is this 'Shivan manifesto'? It doesn't seem to be at the local library. ;)

The Shivans also had 32 years to upgrade their shielding technology and didn't really seem to do a whole lot...the Mara has stronger shields, but not quite next-generation ones.

Not to mention if the fighters weren't shielded, why did the Ancients say they wouldn't die? If they were killing fighters left and right, that's not really "they wouldn't die".

And if shield tech is easier to use on a large-scale basis rather than a small-scale basis, why was the Lucifer the only shielded capship?
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Grimloq on March 24, 2005, 11:55:51 pm: Castor, that first post of yours made as much sense as a slightly drunk eel trying to hump a doorknob. Please elaborate.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: castor on March 25, 2005, 03:10:12 am: LOL, seems I really cut one corner too many there :D
The thought was to extend the discussion beyond the simple point of technologial superiority (If I read myself correctly, hmm).
...the whole FS story has so many loose ends and unknown motives one could fit almost anything into it (and its hard not to, while giving it a thought).

( Well, okay I admit I got a bit carried away at the end :p )
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 25, 2005, 03:40:13 am: Quote
Originally posted by Charismatic
Well from what iv read into the Shivan Manifesto, IIRC it says we basically won the FS2 war, 2nd great war, for the most part.

The 'no fighter shields' was based on, oh. they did have shields in fs1. Hmm. Well from the shield strength, it seems it was recently developed, thus they didnt have it back then.

You are right about the ancients, sorry for my mis calculation.

The Shivan manifesto is one members best guess at what the Shivans are. It's about as valid as factual evidence in this arguement as the Capellan BBQ theory.

In terms of 'winning' FS2, I look at it this way - who retreated, and who completed their primary aim? And insofar as I can see it, the GTVA retreated (abandoned a key system), and the Shivans achieved their aim of doing something to the Capella star. Any presumption of the Shivans winning is based on presuming their intent and reasons for destroying that star; but it's only a presumption.

Shield strength in Shivan FS1 fighters isn't really a valid point, because it relies on a assumption of how fast Shivans develop their technology*. They may simply be very slow at it (lack of threats), they may have only sent a weak force (or scouting force), or they simply may not care about fighters enough to shield them.

If GTVA shielding was directly developed from shield tech recovered from the Shivans, it's not unlikely it would be of similar strength; so a direct vis-a-vis comparison between the GTVA technology and Shivan shields isn't particularly useful in determining the relative rates of development.

*The Shivans don't seem to be very keen on technological advancement atall, really. Perhaps they simply don't need to - if they've been destroying 'young' races for centuries, they may have never encountered anything enough to force an advancement. It's possible they've not even advanced since the time of the Ancients war, and the presence of beams, etc, on the FS2 ships is simply because they're a different force with a different purpose to the FS1 fleet.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Kie99 on March 25, 2005, 09:14:48 am: The Shivan Manifesto (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18138.0.html)

The Complete and Revised Shivan Manifesto (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html)
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 25, 2005, 02:49:42 pm: I'm completely confused by 5/6 of the posts in this thread. Aldo, Kara, and WM are making some sense, but not anything else.

For one:

Quote

I think Kie is signaling about the religion and tech thing.
I think the [A] are someplace. Always thought it'd be neat to see them again.

If the [A] were inplace of the shivans, we (depending on their size) probably would kick their ass. Why? Look:

1)Ancients got WIPED without a fight, by Shivans.
Eh? The monologues clearly indicate that the Ancients fought until the end - why do you think they were working on subspace tracking? (the had no ships left to use it by then)
As I remember "They were like the others, but they were not like the others. They were the same: hideous, resisting, fighting. But these were not like the others. These did not die.

They also imply a larger Shivan force with multiple shielded destroyers, IIRC.

2)Shivans had no shield tech on fighters.
Absolutely no evidence to support that - for eithe the Shivans or Anicents.
Especially after how the Ancients said the Shivans had them. "In subspace they cannot use their shields, and into subspace they can be tracked."
3)We kicked shivan ass in Great W.2. We actually pushed them back.
]Um.... the Shivans captured 2 GTVa systems, 'decimated' the fleet (according to end cutscene), destroyed the Colossus, and supernova-ed a GTVA system star, killing millions+

Scarcely got their ass kicked, then.
Agreed with aldo. We had a Phyrric victory at best. The biggest we ever won was destroying the first Sath (but even that with moderate damage to the Colossus) and the destruction of the first Ravana.

4)Acients must not be as powerfull as they seem.
Their system spanned an area far larger than the GTVA, developed subspace tracking technology, and also node-stabilising tech. The former implies great strength of numbers at the least, and the latter 2 imply higher technology levels than the GTVA
The Ancients were a whole lot more powerful than anyone in Freespace could have imagined. Like aldo said, huge empire, expanding all the way into Altair and Delta Serpentis. They could've killed the Shivans; they just figured it out too late.
5)So that concludes we would beat ancients or atleast hold them off.
Um, no it doesn't, because 1-4 are either completely wrong or simply unfounded.
Exactly what he said.

Why hold them off\beat them?

1)Acients did not posess any great wonderfull technology that was so good it stopped the shivans, so they had no trick up their sleev that would beat Terrans but not Shivans.
Neither did the GTVA... until they found the Ancients legacy - the information how to track and destroy the Lucifer. In other words, 'we' built on what the Ancients had done - it was Anceint tech, not GTVA, that allowed the Lucifer to be destroyed
Exactly. The Ancients, by contrast, were exactly what saved Earth from the Shivans. And had the Ancients survived up until 2335, they certainly would have extremely advanced technology by then. The last Ancients were killed off 8000 years before the times of Freespace. Effectively, they could have conquered the human race easily while we were still, as kara said, using sticks and stones. It's obvious that the Ancients had ventured into the Galaxy; Altair, Delta Serpentis, in addition to the contact they had with the Vasudans during their early years.
[/b]
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Ghostavo on March 25, 2005, 03:00:16 pm: If the Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace, the Ancients would have been wiped out like countless other races...

*insert nine cities of Troy, and the stretch back to infinity speech thingy by Admiral Bosch*
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TopAce on March 25, 2005, 03:11:39 pm: Sorry everyone, I forgot about the Ancients while making this thread.
People are right that then, we would face the Ancients instead of Shivans.
A strange theory, that we might name the Ancients as Destroyers, and eventually as Shivans.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: WMCoolmon on March 25, 2005, 04:55:57 pm: Quote
The Ancients were a whole lot more powerful than anyone in Freespace could have imagined. Like aldo said, huge empire, expanding all the way into Altair and Delta Serpentis. They could've killed the Shivans; they just figured it out too late.

"When the Destroyers came for us we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others - strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. But these were not like the others - they did not die."

To me it sounds like that the Ancients began expanding from lack of resources. "..and before long, we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited." They continued expanding out of this necessity. Along the way they found other life, and either wiped it out or forced it into slavery - "And we saw other advanced life, and we subued it -- or we crushed it."

Finally, one day, the Shivans just attacked one of the Ancients' colony worlds, near the fringe. Because it wasn't a big deal - they had others - the Ancients retreated and assumed that, like them, the Shivans would be sated with that system for a time before moving on. But they weren't, and so began the great Shivan-Ancient war.

However, the Shivans were only interested in the Ancients. They didn't wipe out the Vasudans, who I suspect were part of the 'subdued'.

The Ancients were a greedy race, but their story is meant to parallel that of the GTA/PVN in FS1. "We made our first retreat - we could forego one system." is very similar to the Shivans' attack on R128 and the subsequent denial by Adm. Wolfe. They discovered where the Vasudans' planet was and wiped it out - "And our world was gone", "There will be little legacy left...".. FS2 takes off on an interesting note, that the humans only really bought themselves some time - which in a sense they did. They just used the Ancients' data to save themselves, they didn't actually achieve anything themselves.

There are a lot of undertones in the cutscenes that aren't carried over into the FS2 missions, come to think of it...perhaps this is why everyone says FS1 has 'better atmosphere'.

Edit: and the guy who wrote the Manifesto probably went on to become a politician. No, an activist judge. *Dodges thrown object from Kazan*
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: karajorma on March 25, 2005, 05:33:50 pm: Having had to listen to all of the cutscenes over and over again in order to transcribe them for the FAQ I'd say that there are tonnes of undertones in FS2 as well. They're just different ones :)
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TrashMan on March 25, 2005, 05:47:30 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
the Vasudan Typhon apparently was far superior to the Orion, and doubtless they would have produced their own advancements - we just don't see the full picture of Vasudan tech in FS1.

Erm...no..No where was it mentioned that the Typhon was superior.
It is mentioned that when it first appeared in battle, the GTD Eisenhower and it's batttle group were destroyed. However, this doesn't mean by a lone Typhon, but by a vasudan battlegroup with tons of fighters...and prolly in an ambush..

By pure stats, the Orion would win (more Terran Heavy Turrets)
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: karajorma on March 25, 2005, 06:05:58 pm: Quote
Where the Aten cruiser failed, the Typhon succeeded well past expectations. The Typhon is an incredible work of engineering and the model of Vasudan technology. When the first one was sighted at the Vega Engagement, it was laughed at by our technicians as a foolish display of non utilitarian design. The subsequent destruction of the GTD Eisenhower and the total decimation of the 4th fleet changed their minds very quickly. The Typhon should never be underestimated. It wields massive weaponry, and has more armor plating than any Terran Destroyer. Its only known weakness is its turret armor, which is significant, but lower than expected. In the two years since this ship first appeared, we have only managed to destroy two of them.
The Typhon is considered a Class A threat to any ships within the same system. Do not engage without backup.

Seems to support Aldo's conclusion. Especially when you consider that IIRC both ships carry exactly the same number of fighters and everyone is saying that the Terrans have the edge there.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Ghost on March 25, 2005, 06:17:50 pm: Yeah, Trash.. Typhon is way more awesome, and more powerful... that's just how it is.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: pyro-manic on March 25, 2005, 06:45:06 pm: Without the Shivans, the Ancients would most likely have subverted the Vasudans (IIRC it is hinted that they had some influence in the pre-historic stage of Vasudan development) and humans as well - Sol isn't that far away from Vasuda after all. However, this has been talked about already, so I'll suggest some other possibilities.

Even without the Shivans, it's possible that the Ancients would not have survived to the FS time period (24th century). They may have been destroyed or reduced to insignificance by another race, further afield than is known about (we don't even know the extent of the Ancients' own empire, let alone the Shivan sphere of influence and beyond), or they may have wiped themselves out in a civil war or fallen victim to a disease encountered on an alien planet. Or they may have "perfected" their technology and Sublimed (read some Iain M Banks books ;)), or simply have dwindled away over the millenia. This would leave the situation for a Terran-Vasudan conflict to occur.

Without the Shivans, there could be other advanced, space-capable species around. Whether these would be peaceful or aggressive is, of course, unknown (we know nothing of the races suppressed by the Ancients, or destroyed by the Shivans), but they may well have made themselves known to the Terran and Vasudan empires at some point. Venom's Unx seems to be an example of one of these old races, though he's kept rather quiet about it up till now, so I doubt he'll ever tell us what it was for...

With regard to the T-V War, it is obvious that the war was a stalemate by 2335, with neither side having made any significant territorial gains for some years (Operation Thresher being the most recent major battle, even that resulting in no major gain for either side). I suspect that the economies of both empires were on the verge of collapse, and the people were probably heartily sick of war by that point anyway. One side or the other would eventually have to open negotiations for peace, and a treaty would have been signed at some point.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Ghost on March 25, 2005, 11:01:30 pm: Well, this is outside of canon, but I remember seeing somebody's starmap of the entire universe, not just GTVA controlled space... I'm not sure where, though. So if you used that in your conjectures, we would know the Shivan sphere of influence.

What I'd like to know is why don't the Shivans leave a destroyer in each system after they vanquish a species? That way, when some uppity race decides they're going to travel in subspace, and the Shivans wake up, they can just smash them.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 25, 2005, 11:44:15 pm: That might not always work. Subspace flight, presumably, predates the formation of the GTA, so there would be multitude of armed factions about in all likelyhood. Weapons tech would not be as advanced, but ironically enough, the first weapon to actually be effective against Shivan fighters that the GTA and PVN deployed was a bit of a step backwards technologically (from chemical lasers to kinetic-impact cannon). And there would be a greater total number of those weapons then if the race were a single united front.

I think that's why the Shivans attacked when they did in FS1. There is a period of vunerablity after the unifying of a race where they are actually not as powerful, militarily, as they were seperate. The Shivans tried to exploit this...but they got it all wrong, because the Terran-Vasudan War was ongoing.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TopAce on March 26, 2005, 04:25:01 am: Because Shivans are like the Predators. They like interfering in the middle of a chaos.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Kie99 on March 26, 2005, 07:41:24 am: Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
That might not always work. Subspace flight, presumably, predates the formation of the GTA, so there would be multitude of armed factions about in all likelyhood.

No there wouldn't, the Shivans would have destroyed them.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 26, 2005, 10:55:41 am: Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
That might not always work. Subspace flight, presumably, predates the formation of the GTA, so there would be multitude of armed factions about in all likelyhood. Weapons tech would not be as advanced, but ironically enough, the first weapon to actually be effective against Shivan fighters that the GTA and PVN deployed was a bit of a step backwards technologically (from chemical lasers to kinetic-impact cannon). And there would be a greater total number of those weapons then if the race were a single united front.

I think that's why the Shivans attacked when they did in FS1. There is a period of vunerablity after the unifying of a race where they are actually not as powerful, militarily, as they were seperate. The Shivans tried to exploit this...but they got it all wrong, because the Terran-Vasudan War was ongoing.

I remember someone from V saying that the Shivans were* attracted to conflict, like locusts to crops. It's possible the Shivans don't have any logic towards this - perhaps there is simply a certain point that, whenever a species is advanced enough, it will inevitably fight with another. Perhaps the Shivans are the extreme of that - they fight everyone. Maybe they even are trying to escape their own nature (perhaps Capella was destroyed in a mass act of suicide - incredibly unlikely & implasuible theory, of course - or to create a gateway to somewhere the Shivans could be alone in).

*or maybe not that explicitly; he at least suggested that was plausible.

Incidentally, RE: the Unx, my understanding was
Spoiler:

The Unx never left their own system; their weaponry, IIRC, did, but the Unx ships simply never travelled via subspace and thus never attracted attention from the Shivans.

Although I have a feeling Venom changed the Unx several times, so that could be bollocks. His OtT story was interesting, though.

Oh, and I took my view that Ancients kept fighting simply from the existance of a weapon against the Lucifer (the subspace tracker) - even up to the point where all their ships were destroyed, they had been working on ways to try and win the war, or just survive.

An interesting aside, of course, is that the technology was discovered on Altair (IIRC); if that's not the Ancients homeworld (and it seems unlikely), then it raises a question as to why they were still there - after all
And we retreated to our home system.
Abandoned our empire.
We believed at home we would be safe.

So were they left behind? If so - and they seemingly survived long enough to develop the tech - then were they close to the Ancients homeworld? (and, I wonder - has Vasuda Prime been devastated twice.....?)
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TopAce on March 26, 2005, 11:00:01 am: Quote
I remember someone from V saying that the Shivans were* attracted to conflict, like locusts to crops.

Independance Day!
(Thinking of the Movie)
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 26, 2005, 11:13:27 am: :rolleyes:

I'm not thinking of that movie, if that's what you're saying. It was written on a post on the FS mailing list (albeit I added the locust analogy).
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: karajorma on March 26, 2005, 11:50:11 am: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
An interesting aside, of course, is that the technology was discovered on Altair (IIRC); if that's not the Ancients homeworld (and it seems unlikely), then it raises a question as to why they were still there - after all
And we retreated to our home system.
Abandoned our empire.
We believed at home we would be safe.

So were they left behind? If so - and they seemingly survived long enough to develop the tech - then were they close to the Ancients homeworld? (and, I wonder - has Vasuda Prime been devastated twice.....?)

I've always taken it that the Ancients on Altair were the survivors of the Shivan attack. In the same way that Vasuans managed to escape the destruction of their planet.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 26, 2005, 12:02:36 pm: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

I've always taken it that the Ancients on Altair were the survivors of the Shivan attack. In the same way that Vasuans managed to escape the destruction of their planet.

Ah, but why Altair? Other thing is that Altair itself we destroyed by Shivan weapons - but the monologues indicate that the Ancients retreated until their homeworld was the last destroyed.

It's a... curiousity, I think.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: karajorma on March 26, 2005, 12:11:49 pm: The monlogues never say that their homeworld was last.

Quote
Ancients 3
And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestial species.
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.

Ancients 4
There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.
We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace the cosmic destroyers took note.
When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us

Ancients 5
There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.
We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt.
We have the knowledge but not the means. And so this is our legacy.
In subspace they can not use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.

They definately lasted a while past the end of their homeworld. Looks like they retreated to their homeworld but went back out again after it was gone.

(I really ought to finish off the FAQ. I've got an unfair advantage having the text of all those monologues at my fingertips) :D
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 26, 2005, 01:20:10 pm: Thinking about it, the Shivans never attacked planets except the homeworld in FS1.... maybe the last of the Ancients were simply left for later.... maybe the Shivans aren't interested in extermination, but simply destroying the culture and the technology.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TopAce on March 26, 2005, 01:35:24 pm: But then how is that the Ancients became extinct? How come if they Shivans only destroyed their homeworld?
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 26, 2005, 01:41:07 pm: Who says they did? :D

Maybe they simply regressed to a pre/low technology state, and simply died off slowly?

Or maybe the Shivans destroyed just enough(infrastructure, technology, key food sources) to make survival impossible?
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TopAce on March 26, 2005, 01:44:39 pm: Or maybe the remaining Ancients are in unexplored space?
Isn't Inferno based around this theory?
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 26, 2005, 01:45:43 pm: I don't think it is, I've never played it.

One theory is that some Ancients survived and made it to Vasuda, but their technology regressed to a state that they couldn't escape elsewhere, and they either guided the Vasudans, or even became them.

(in the latter case, it assumes Ancient technology and society essentially disintegrate to a point where the true history of Vasudans was lost).
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TopAce on March 26, 2005, 03:56:39 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I don't think it is, I've never played it.
...

This is at least common in us.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: WMCoolmon on March 26, 2005, 05:07:05 pm: R1 isn't.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: BlackDove on March 26, 2005, 06:08:20 pm: Anything that contains Ancients, and is set within the FS1-FS2-After timeline, doesn't make sense whatsoever.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Goober5000 on March 26, 2005, 06:10:59 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Thinking about it, the Shivans never attacked planets except the homeworld in FS1....
Well, here's what the FS1 tech room says...
Quote
The Lucifer is the greatest threat to the survival of the GTA, the PVN, and both the Terran and Vasudan species. It wields three massive Flux Cannons which can destroy one of our capital ships in a few hits. These same cannons have been seen bombarding colonized worlds.
Notice it says worlds, plural. Not just Vasuda.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TrashMan on March 26, 2005, 06:34:46 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
Yeah, Trash.. Typhon is way more awesome, and more powerful... that's just how it is.

I say again...NO..

The Tech description didn't say it was the Typhon alone (it was a vasudan battlegroup WITH the new destroyer)

It never said if it was an ambush or not (attacking a damaged Orion is no real test of strength)

It could be the terrans underesitimated the new ship and lost becouse of that, and not the ships superiority.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: pyro-manic on March 26, 2005, 07:13:40 pm: Or it could have jumped in and kicked the living hell out of the 4th Fleet. ;) We don't know. There's no info either way, so it's pointless to debate it. The fact is, the Typhon is a badass ship, on level terms with the Orion (fewer weapons, but significantly more armour). The Terrans and Vasudans were stalemated for years, so it's unlikely that either side would have been able to achieve any kind of meaningful victory over the other. The two possibilities are either a mutual truce and peace treaty, or a total collapse of one or both sides, either economically or politically (or even both). Some sort of peace would have happened eventually, even if it only occurred through the inability of one or both sides to carry on fighting (no ships left, no resources to sustain the war effort).

Aldo: Was the OTT story ever published? I kind of missed the collapse to be honest...
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Ghost on March 26, 2005, 07:36:42 pm: Hmph. Now, if I was any decent sort of FREDer, I'd make a mission(no beams) with an Orion vs. Typhon, and I know that should be easy, but I blow ass at making missions. Someone want to make one, just so one of us will back down?
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: karajorma on March 26, 2005, 07:47:50 pm: Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan

I say again...NO..

The Tech description didn't say it was the Typhon alone (it was a vasudan battlegroup WITH the new destroyer)

It never said if it was an ambush or not (attacking a damaged Orion is no real test of strength)

It could be the terrans underesitimated the new ship and lost becouse of that, and not the ships superiority.

And then they underestimated it and got ambushed in every other battle of the 14 year war?

If all the terran ships are superior then how the hell did the vasudans manage to stalemate them for so long?
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: BlackDove on March 26, 2005, 08:10:47 pm: They're more intelligent.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Carl on March 26, 2005, 10:44:38 pm: it says in the ending cutscene that if the shivans had never come than the terrans and vasudans would have wiped each other out.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Kie99 on March 27, 2005, 07:32:47 am: If the Typhon and the Orion fight with no beams its very dependent on position as to who'd win.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 27, 2005, 10:53:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by Carl
it says in the ending cutscene that if the shivans had never come than the terrans and vasudans would have wiped each other out.

No it doesn't
[q]
(6) End of Game. In the player’s voice. With visuals similar enough that it will be obvious this narration is of a similar nature to the previous five.

I know why the Ancient Ones were destroyed. And I know what they knew.

I know that if not for the Shivans they would have been conquered long before.

Without the Shivans, someone would have discovered them long before, in their infancy. And destroyed them, just as surely as they destroyed countless billions of others.

I believe it is only the destroyers who are destroyed. The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers. That is why there was no one to destroy us.

Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.

In the Vasudan war we learned how to adapt.
We learned how to study our enemy.
We learned how to overcome.
We learned how to survive.
And so we did.

All the jump points from Earth have been destroyed.
But the Shivans can rebuild them.

[Timbre of voice shifts, closer, more personal, no reverb.]

I’m told we can expect them again.
But not in my lifetime.
Such is liberation.

May you live to see your home.
[/q]
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Ghost on March 27, 2005, 10:57:18 am: Question... where are you getting that "May you live to see your home" bit? I've never heard that before...

EDIT:: Uh.... yeah.. dependent on position? See, that's why they have engines.. so they can MOVE.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 27, 2005, 11:18:37 am: FS Ref Bible.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 28, 2005, 03:44:28 am: Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
EDIT:: Uh.... yeah.. dependent on position? See, that's why they have engines.. so they can MOVE.

Do they come at each other such that the Orion can bring the majority of its Terran Huge Turrets to bear? That's what dependant on posistion means.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Kie99 on March 28, 2005, 05:00:06 am: Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
EDIT:: Uh.... yeah.. dependent on position? See, that's why they have engines.. so they can MOVE.

*is tempted to flame Ghost. * Wonders if flames effect ghosts*
Dependent on poisition is like this, if you have a Colossus behind a Sathanas, the Sathanas will slowly but surely get killed, if however you put the Colossus in front of a Sathanas the Colossus will get toasted in less than a minute.

ngtm1r got it right.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 28, 2005, 06:12:38 am: Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic

Aldo: Was the OTT story ever published? I kind of missed the collapse to be honest...

I don't actually remember if it was....... I wouldn't like to tread on Nicos toes by saying what I do remember, though.

Unfortunately all the old project forums have been deleted and archived, so I can't even check to see if the internal was opened up. Means I can't access the old Reci forum either, which is mildly annoying.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: TrashMan on March 28, 2005, 07:18:45 am: Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
Hmph. Now, if I was any decent sort of FREDer, I'd make a mission(no beams) with an Orion vs. Typhon, and I know that should be easy, but I blow ass at making missions. Someone want to make one, just so one of us will back down?

I did that in the good old days of FS1.

I've made a mission like "the clash of titans", the Orion and Typhon heading for eachother.

Without fighters, Orion won.

With fighters on both sides (equal number) it was roughly a even matched fight.

Quote

And then they underestimated it and got ambushed in every other battle of the 14 year war?

If all the terran ships are superior then how the hell did the vasudans manage to stalemate them for so long?

What are you talking about? What does this one battle have to do with others?
We know 2 Typhons were destroyed during the war, how many Orions - we have no idea.

And I never said terran ships are superior, I said the Typhon isn't superior to the Orion. Don't stretch the mening of my words.

EDIT: positioning really din't have a high influence on Fs1 ships. They didn't have end-all weapons like beams, and they would quickly start circling eachother anyway.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: aldo_14 on March 28, 2005, 07:35:27 am: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
Well, here's what the FS1 tech room says...Notice it says worlds, plural. Not just Vasuda.

:o

Never read that until just there :doh:

Oh, and incidentally; the techroom gives the first sighted Typhon credit with destroying the GTD Eisenhower and decimating fleet; given how utterly ****e the other Vasudan cruisers are (IIRc it even says so in the techroom), that would imply the Typhon was key.

It also implies that it wasn't a simple ambush of a damaged ship, otherwise it wouldn't be cited in the techroom as an example of the Typhons' threat; plus I'd find it less likely that a damaged Orion was somehow still travelling with a fleet rather than seeking repairs, and IMO any initial attack which 'softened' up the Orion to a suitable degree to make the Typhon look inferior would hint at the ship being weak itself.

Remember, also, that the techrooms purpose is to a) inform the player and b) fill the sort of role a GTA technical database would. In both cases, it simply wouldn't make sense to exaggerate or misrepresent the ships strength.

Of course, as with the Colossus, it's possible the Typhon had to be toned down for the game balance or performance - there's definately a high(er?) poly version of it at the least.
Title: What if Shivans didn't exist in FreeSpace?
Post by: Ghost on March 28, 2005, 09:02:18 am: *praises Aldo*