Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Airborne on April 07, 2005, 08:14:38 pm
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I haven't posted here in such a long time, but I've always wanted to start a thread on this particular topic.
If there was war being waged between the two, who would win? The Starforge from Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic? or the Shivan armada? For one, the Starforge is advanced to the point that it can constantly churn out warship after warship as long as it receives suitable energy from a star, which gives this massive battle station it's nickname: "The Starforge and The Infinite Fleet." On the other hand, we have no idea how many ships the Shivan armada is comprised of, though we sure got a taste of it in Freespace 2. Anyways, choose your side, and explain why you've reached this decision.
If one is unfamiliar with what the starforge is here are some reference sources (the first link being the best):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakatan_Empire
http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/starforge/index.html
http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotor/enemies/rakata.php
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Sathani+supernova=win.
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Shivan Armada. Granted, this Starforge you speak of sounds pretty nifty, if they can make ships as long as they have Star-nergy. But my reasoning is.. the Shivans probably grow their ships anyway. Plus they have beams, the subspace weaponry, etc... the Lucifer with it's awesome shield system... and you know, nobody else has subspace except people in the FS universe, so no tracking it. And I hate to use insubstantial evidence, but... I saw a long time ago(I think on HLP) a starmap of the entire galaxy of the FS universe, and there was a small corner, withthe systems the GTVA controls... And then the rest of it was a big-ass mess of red systems, all controlled by the Shivans. If they inhabit that much of the Milky Way, there's no way anything could defeat them.
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Here's a little background on the starforge and it's owners, so you can get an understanding of what fighting the starforge entails.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/starforge/index.html
http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotor/enemies/rakata.php
Here's an even greater reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakatan_Empire
I'll place all these links on my first post as well.
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Oh. Oh. That's bad. Rakata kind of remind me of the Ancients in that they had a really old civilization before extinction. Anyway... Subspace weapon that blows up stars vs. thing that harnesses power from a star. I'm still sticking with Shivans, if only because I think they can't be stopped.
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Sathanas Armada.
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Actually, this empire had a failsafe with which to counter a threat against the star forge, so one could argue that the Shivan's method of destroying the star that supplies it's energy can no longer apply either. Within this star system is a planet that holds a temple, which in turn holds a special device. Here's the info:The Rakata home world orbited the sun to which the Star Forge was linked. On this planet the Rakata built a temple that housed a generator for a defensive field around the Star Forge. The field disrupted any electronic equipment that approached the Star Forge, causing ships to be caught in the gravitational field of the Rakatan planet. The Unknown World, as it was called, was littered with the wreckage of thousands of years of ships unlucky enough to stumble upon the Star Forge.
Plus, what brought the Rakatan Empire's downfall wasn't another civilization's intervention, but in fact the fault of the dark side of the force that surged within the station. So unless you want to stick to the realm of the Star Wars universe, I believe this drawback really doesn't apply.
Read the reference pages I added to my first post if you'd like, I added a wiki version.
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*votes Shivans*
No offense to the Star Wars universe, but two hundred Sathanas, each with 4 BFReds and nearly 70 defensive turrets...unstoppable. Each Sathanas is capable of deploying nearly 300 strikecraft, according to a chart on the Ross 128 website. Which, sadly, has now gone kaput... :(
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The Sathani do not need to close the Starforge to blow up the star it orbits, and once that happens, then everything insystem is well and truly screwed. They seemed to be a good distance away from the Capella star, after all. And the anti-electronics field may not necessarily work on Shivan systemry, which is apparently quite functionally different from that of Humans or Vasudans.
On the other hand, if they realized in time that the Shivans were not using hyperdrives, the owners of the Star Forge might throw up hefty blockades at the jump nodes into the system. They don't have to understand what subspace is or how the drives work for that: just that the Shivans have to enter a system through fixed points. But that's a pretty big if.
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I agree the Saths could probably destroy the star. I also think the Starforge is a laughably lame piece of SW EU rubbish.
I don't, however, think blowing up the star would destroy the Starforge. A Trade Federation 'war freighter' has the heat dissipation on its shields to sit in a star until it's fuel runs out, years down the road - I would be surprised if the Starforge was weaker than a converted freighter. But then, the SW EU is stupid, so who knows.
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Er, excuse me if I'm not mistaken here, but the starforge requires star energry + the force to run, not just starnergey. Which kinda means you've got to have a jedi running the show, and a very very powerful one at that (for information on what happens when a not powerful enough jedi tries to run it, see KotOR2 w Revan as a darkside). One of those jedi powers is the "Holy crap Jedi spider-sense" which does tend to push it a little bit back in the favor of star forge.
Honestly though, the shivans are probably in a good bit of trouble. The forge is not an easy thing to find, we don't even know if there are any jump points to that system, and freespace 1 could've been subtitled "Shivan Naked Gun 4 1/4: Where's earth?". It takes the PC a good bit of time to find it despite all the hints left for him and his magical spider sense. I have a feeling the shivans might take a very, very long time to find it.
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The shivans wouldnt realy care probably, if it was in their way they'd blow it up though.
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Snuffleupagus would win!
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The thing is - the Star Forge can produce an endless supply of Star Destroyers, yes?
That means the Shivans must break trough the defensive armada first...
Since we don't know the power of SW warships of that era or how effective theri shields would be against Shivan weaponry, or the other way around, this whole debate is...senseless..
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Aren't Photons essentially light, or particles thereof?
Do SW Shields block light?
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In concordance with ngtm1r's statement, The Sath's were quite a distance away. Look at the size of the star compared with the size of the Sath's in the cutscene. Plus, BEAMZ! Take (most of) the forge off the star, and then *ploop* goes the star.
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Except that doesn't matter: the Starforge could likely survive the explosion.
Although it is a scifi-stupid Really Fast Supernova so it's probably funky. I'll take 10e22 heat dissipation over FS hull armour any time, though.
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units?
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Didn't we already have this discussion that the units of measure in star-wars are off by a few billion?
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Well, as the name implies, this huge station "forges" starships at a constant rate. And I think if put into the right hands... oh let's say the Terrans and Vasudans... well I think we've just found a way to counter the Shivans. The priority for using this weapon of course is to constantly have your starships on the offensive, so that your enemy can never get too close to your means of supply. Just think of what the GTVA could do with a steady stream of Aeolus class cruisers, Deimos class corvettes, and Colossus class superdestroyers. Not to mention the other ships in the GTVA's arsenal.
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There's one problem with the Starforge inherently and using it in freespace specifically. I'll forgo the arguments over the feasability of such a device or where the resources come from, sure. But there is still the problem of crew. Manpower is not an infinite resource, and crewing 10k+ man warships that pop out at a near-infinite rate doesn't seem like something that humans can do in Star Wars, much less in the more realistic (Yeah, I know. It's relative.) world of Freespace. EU and canonality be damned, the comparison is moot because it is stupid. End of story.
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The heat dissipation numbers are in watts. The numbers are also consistent with things like 'blowing up planets' and the generally ludicrious powerlevels in SW. Although it was from memory: the ships would need 10e18W to survive more than a few seconds in combat with one another. Since troop transports like Acclamator have 10e22W, I'd say Starforge is better.
Lets not forget that stellar plasma, while hot, is extremely diffuse and doesn't actually transfer heat very quickly. Its a scifi brainbug that says stars are dangerous.
Stratcomm, however, is absolutely right. It's just a stupid piece of stupid EU in a stupid game. Lets all ignore it.
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So that's total and not per square meter, thank god.
And heat dissapation isn't realy all that matters. What matters is a wall of material moving at relativistic speeds.
(nots the inconsistencies of ships surviving blasts from supposedly terawat lasers then dieng instantly when a small ship, with a kenetic enrgy of far less than .3 tJ)
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Because crashing into a 900km warship = killed by an Awing. Wow, analysis. :rolleyes: Not to mention that the shields were DOWN, thus making it a pretty stupid example of shield capability.
The relativistic nature of the shivan supernova - both occuring in seconds and propagating at least several AU in 20-30 seconds - would indeed be the only real threat to the station.
However, this isn't a vs thread, and I'm hijacking. I reiterate: although deeply lame, the Starforge can almost certainly survive the detonation of the star it orbits. Simply forming a wall with those silly ships it builds would increase it's defence, if that was even needed. FS2 is pretty low in the scifi pecking order, as it should be as a non-wankfest 24th century setting.
On another note, why would anyone want to build Deimos corvettes with the starforge? Are the ships in KOTOR seriously lame enough to warrant replacement with an FS2 ship?
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Deimos is awesome, so quiet.
And who's to say you couldn't pump out people along with the ships? Just a thought...
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Uh, if the starforge system went nova, the starforge is royal toast, simply because the thing is ludicrously close to the star. We're not even talking mercury close, we're talking "Why, exactly, isn't that thing melting?" close - the ending of Kotor makes that pretty clear. Blow up one stabilizer and the thing falls into the thing.
On the other hand, maybe that just proves it has some absurd heat shielding, making the explosion null and void.
Crew shouldn't be much of a problem for the forge. While people are a bit beyond it's capacity, the thing spews out droids like there were no tommorow. While they may not be the ideal crew, they're certainly capable enough if you make them right.
And you know, I forgot something - the forge has a rather major defense system with one heck of a range, capable of disabling ships from quite a distance. If that works on the shivans, they're in big trouble.
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I would win. I did against both of them.
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Wait, I just remembered something. Which came first, the Dyson Sphere(in Star Trek: The Next Generation), or this stupid Starforge thing from Kotor? Oh wait, that's right, the Dyson Sphere. By about 10 years.
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Dyson sphere was coined in 1959 by Freeman Dyson; I hope you're not giving Star Trek (of all things-!) credit for its creation, it's an ancient idea.
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Though, Gene Rodenberry (And A.C Clarke, I think) were the first people to promote the idea of a 'Desktop Computer' and a portable computer (Tricorder) ;)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Dyson sphere was coined in 1959 by Freeman Dyson; I hope you're not giving Star Trek (of all things-!) credit for its creation, it's an ancient idea.
Although Freeman Dyson's sphere was not a solid construct. More like a distributed system of small planetoids to collect the energy.
Nor was the Dyson Sphere actually Dyson's idea. He merely popularised an earlier idea. As usual wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere) has all the info :)
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The Executor was not 900km long. All rational measurements put it at 17.5 kilometers.
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Originally posted by karajorma
As usual wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere) has all the info :)
Where do you think I got it from? :)
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I prefer discussing Dyson spheres to the Physics of two completely imaginary universes ;)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Where do you think I got it from? :)
Well I actually knew it before I looked for the link :) But then I was a big fan of Larry Niven's Ringworld books so looking up the next biggest thing seemed like a good idea back then :)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Dyson sphere was coined in 1959 by Freeman Dyson; I hope you're not giving Star Trek (of all things-!) credit for its creation, it's an ancient idea.
No, I'm not, honestly... Let us just say that KOTOR ripped off the Dyson Sphere idea, and didn't even give Mr. Dyson himself credit. At least ST kept the original name.
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I won't mention vacuum cleaners...
And Freelancer used a Dyson Sphere too :)
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How about a hundred Unicron's? ;)
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Originally posted by Jal-18
The Executor was not 900km long. All rational measurements put it at 17.5 kilometers.
The 900km starship I referred to was the Death Star II. The Executor can hardly crash into itself!
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Originally posted by Ghost
No, I'm not, honestly... Let us just say that KOTOR ripped off the Dyson Sphere idea, and didn't even give Mr. Dyson himself credit. At least ST kept the original name.
Um... given that Star Wars is set 'in a galaxy far far away, a long time ago', it wouldn't make all that much (or indeed any) sense to namecheck a guy who technically doesn't exist in that universe.
Of course, IIRC the Star Forge wasn't a Dyson Sphere / swarm / whatever because it merely harnessed the stars power; any dyson 'construct' in some way surrounds a star, be it in a network of satellites, rings, encapsulating sphere, etc. I think for one thing the Star Forge was far too small.
Anyways, are you sure you're not just having a go for the sake of it?
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So is that Magog world-planet or whatever its called from Andromeda considered a dyson sphere?
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
So is that Magog world-planet or whatever its called from Andromeda considered a dyson sphere?
Dyson sphere encapsulates a star; so unless it's a shell built around a star*, no.
*NB: doesn't have to be an all covering sphere; can be a network of satellites, rings, etc - i.e. anything that surrpunds a star and harnesses its power.
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Originally posted by Pnakotus
The 900km starship I referred to was the Death Star II. The Executor can hardly crash into itself!
Ahh, I misread your sentence. nvm then.
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Wait, the DSII was 900 Km ind diameter? I was under the assumption is was far smaller than that.
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Strictly speaking, the ISD Executor was about 4m in length iirc and made out of plastic, metal, tin foil etc etc ;) Though I seem to recall they had to make a big model of it for the surface skimming shots, though that may have been the Death Star itself ;)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Anyways, are you sure you're not just having a go for the sake of it?
You've discovered my secret.
KOTOR blows.
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What I find silly is that several of you disregard and criticize this topic simply because the starforge is from the star wars universe. The concept in itself is worth an intelligent discussion, not critical chit chat.
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It really isn't though. There is a slight problem with conservation of matter, and so no matter how you choose to explain it the Starforge concept just doesn't work. Energy can be used to process materials, not make them. Energy-to-matter can be a viable explanation, except the rate at which the thing is supposed to be able to produce ships is greater than the rate of fuel burn inside a star. It just doesn't add up.
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Originally posted by StratComm
It really isn't though. There is a slight problem with conservation of matter, and so no matter how you choose to explain it the Starforge concept just doesn't work. Energy can be used to process materials, not make them. Energy-to-matter can be a viable explanation, except the rate at which the thing is supposed to be able to produce ships is greater than the rate of fuel burn inside a star. It just doesn't add up.
Coming from a universe built around the idea of the Force, I don't think it really has to make sense.
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i vote Starforge/Sith Fleet, since the StarForge has the ability to create an infinite amount of ships.
and i don't think it needs a power source, AFAIK it has its own.
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Originally posted by Airborne
What I find silly is that several of you disregard and criticize this topic simply because the starforge is from the star wars universe. The concept in itself is worth an intelligent discussion, not critical chit chat.
Problem is, it won't be. Simple as that, it starts off sensible and goes stupid every single time.
Edit : It's like saying 'Jam is better than Peanut Butter.' Theres no correct answer.
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Jam!
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Oh... alright, yes there is a correct answer ;)
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no, PEANUT BUTTER! wasn't there a campaign a while ago that tried to combine the different sci fi universes maybe they can solve this issue
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spam fest!
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It is now you've joined in ;)
Why does the phrase 'Professional Witness' come to mind? :p
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After the awing hit the executor it was effectively a huge chunk of space debris that blew up of it's own accord. Unless you're willing to argue that the main reactor core is positioned in the very front of the ship.
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no, what happened was the front of the ship collapsed, creating a chain reaction and the ship exploded.
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IIRC when the awing crashed into it the entire thing went out of control. Thus the ship was effectively destroyed, deaths star or not.
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yeah, the flames from the impact vaporized the helm controls. you guess the result. ;)
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Or.. you know... no oxygen left on the bridge, and people got sucked out/vaporized/burned beyond belief, and they couldn't do anything. Think logically. An A-wing could not crash into anything that large and do anything kinetically. It would have to be side effects, and I don't think the helm controls would vaporize.
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you're not getting it. the helm controls were vaporized and sent the Executor spiraling out of control.
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Prove it.
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Dudes, the people piloting the ship on the bridge got killed, and then the Executor was pulled down into the Death Star's gravity well before the crew could re-establish control using the auxiliary bridge or what have you. I don't see what's so difficult about that.
Or put another way, A-wing hit Executor's brain, Executor stumble into Death Star and go BOOM.
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I guess the bigger question is why did the Executer vaporize itself when only its nose hit the Death Star? The main reactors are way back near the engines, so why didn't it crumple like tinfoil until it got reasonably close to the reactor casing? Oh, yeah, because it's a movie and because 'splosions look cool.
Though that one explosion in particular still strikes me as the worst explosion in the entire trilogy. I mean, you can see the flames spread out across the top of the box that it was shot in (the column suddenly mushrooming out across the top of the screen isn't something a real explosion would ever do, unless there was a solid surface there to guide it), nevermind the flaming crater that it leaves behind. It's just poorly done in comparison to even the other effects of the series. The effects of convection on flame are exactly why you always, alway always shoot an explosion for a sci-fi effect from the bottom.
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*cough*
Just thought I'd point out the Star Forge is not a Dyson Sphere; it's a large space-station, probably in the Death Star range of scale, that appears to be sucking up stellar material from the surface of the star it's near.
I always suspected the Executor didn't blow up: it hit a magazine, reactor fuel storage, or something else 'splody in the Death Star, THAT blew up, then the Executor blew up too. The flame does seem to come from the impact point.
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Magazine? Of what, turbolaser casings?
It's just a bad explosion, a shute of fire which moves FAR too fast considering its supposed to be 16+ km long. Quit searching for in-universe explanations, and look at it for what it is.
It's like the Tie Fighter cannons, in ANH they were like WW2 fighter planes firing a quick succession of shots. And in the later movies they fired seemingly-more powerful and inter-spaced shots. Do all of the Tie Fighters have new guns? No, it's just a new special effect.
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Proton torpedos, concussion missiles, thermal detonators. The Death Star has large wings of TIEs, including TIE Bombers which use all of the above. (And possibly other craft, like the Assault Gunboat. I'm told there's even a TIE Defender hidden in the rush of TIEs past the Millenium Falcon in RotJ, but I've never been able to find it for myself.)
It also has a large garrison force aboard, multiple divisions of Imperial Army troopers and stormtroopers. They make use of explosives: proton grenades, standard grenades, thermal detonators, probably whatever the Star Wars equivalent to plastic explosive is.
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i didnt think Defenders were around by ROTJ
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The events of TIE Fighter actually start shortly after Hoth, and the final campaign available (I have TIE Fighter on CD, so I have everything from the mission disks as well) is titled "Ultimate Victory" and includes missions from the lead-up to Endor, like killing some Rebel capital ships to ensure they bring in all their possible reinforcements, and assassinating a Bothan who thinks the Death Star II information might be a trap. It's done from the cockpit of the Missile Boat, so the T/D is around too. I'm not quite sure where your pilot is for Endor, though, as it's been too long since I've played that campaign.
The Defender appeared before then in X-Wing Alliance, too. TIE Defender group Shadow shows up at the Droid TIE testing facility to oppose you: I remember them all too well, because I nearly wet my pants when one of them came after my fighter. Fortunately he wasn't quite as uber as I remembered.
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Originally posted by Cobra
the helm controls were vaporized
I doubt the exploding A-wing would really vaporise all that much.
The Executor exploded because, when it hit the Death Star, someone fell on the self destruct button. :p
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The player in TIE Fighter isn't at endor. While the emperor is off doing his thing with the death star 2, you get commissioned to go help Admiral Thrawn Chase down the traitorous Admiral Zaarin.