Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: ns33 on April 16, 2005, 01:43:59 pm
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I remember that I've run into a composition of research that showed which fleet is based in which system (such as 3rd Fleet HQ in Capella, 13th Vasudan Battle Group in Deneb). But recently, I haven't been able to find it. It's not in the Freespace Bible, and I can't find it anywhere online. Does anyone have any tips or directions they can point me to?
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It's right here (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/search.php) .
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Lol. Dun dun dun dun! Another person directed to the search button. >) Oh happy day!
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should have seen that one coming...
Edit: but really, which system is fleet HQ in?
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Going once.. going twice..
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Originally posted by ns33
I remember that I've run into a composition of research that showed which fleet is based in which system (such as 3rd Fleet HQ in Capella, 13th Vasudan Battle Group in Deneb). But recently, I haven't been able to find it. It's not in the Freespace Bible, and I can't find it anywhere online. Does anyone have any tips or directions they can point me to?
What you most likely saw was Su-tehp's guide on FREDZone's forums which I've frequently linked to.
The forums are down now so you can't get them that way but since I was sensible enough to back them up here's the relavent portion.
(FYI to all mission designers, Terran ship groups are referred to as "fleets’, while Vasudan ship groups are referred to as "battle groups." The list below illustrates this. There is one inconsistency with this in the tech database Artemis bomber entry, which refers to the Terran Artemis bomber being deployed to the Terran 2nd and 3rd battle groups. All the other references I found were all consistent in referring to Terran ship groups as "fleets", so I’ve decided to disregard the Artemis inconsistency.)
Everyone, this is a list of the fleet and battle group organization in both the GTVA Terran and Vasudan fleets and the Neo-Terran Front fleets as well. If you wish to refer to specific fleets and battle groups, please use this list. I’ve done a great deal of work compiling this list to make it as accurate as possible, so that everyone would have the same basis to name fleets. The reason I would like everyone to use this list is to reduce inconsistencies with everyone’s missions. Problems would arise (and have already arisen) if different mission designers would base the same fleet in different star systems. Hence, I created this list. I hope that it serves all of you well.
GTVA Terran Fleet Organization Notes:
For fleets and battle groups that have the word "CONFIRMED" next to them, this means I have found a specific reference to that particular fleet and its base system in the FS1 and FS2 games from either a command briefing, the technical database, or a debriefing comment. The rest of the fleets and battle groups I had to extrapolate and do some guess work. I deduced that there were 26 GTVA battle groups from looking at the technical database entry for the GTM Hornet missile, which said that 2.6 million+ Hornet missiles had been stockpiled after the Great War and they were evenly distributed to all of the GTVA battle groups/fleets with each battle group and fleet getting at least 100,000 Hornets each. So 2.6 million divided by 100,000 = 26 fleets/battle groups. I knew that there were at least 12 Terran fleets because of the reference to the 12th Fleet at Ross 128 that I found in a debriefing and the tech database mentions the 13th Battle Group at Deneb in the description for the GVD Hatshepsut. So I reasoned that there were 13 Terran fleets and 13 Vasudan battle groups.
Determining which planets were Vasudan and which were Terran was a little tougher, but from all the specific references I found concerning which planets belonged to whom, I couldn’t escape from the conclusion that only Alpha Centauri, Altair, Vasuda Prime, Aldebaran, and Deneb were Vasudan planets. ALL the other planets in the vicinity of Vasuda Prime had specific references that they were Terran planets, NOT Vasudan. In order to square this with my conclusion that there were 13 Terran fleets and 13 Vasudan battle groups, I came to the conclusion that, in order to help cement the mutual trust and cooperation that arose from fighting the Shivans, the Vasudans would base many of their battle groups in Terran systems and protect them for the Terrans, who were already stretched thin guarding the rest of their systems. BETAC and the formulation of the GTVA no doubt helped cement this gesture of trust and friendship.
1st Fleet: Based at Terra (Cut off from GTA/GTVA when SD Lucifer exploded)
2nd Fleet: Based at Delta Serpentis (the Terran capital since contact with Earth was lost)
3rd Fleet (CONFIRMED): Based at Capella
4th Fleet (CONFIRMED): Based at Vega
5th Fleet: Based at Beta Aquilae (this system is the capital of the entire GTVA)
6th Fleet (CONFIRMED): Based at Epsilon Pegasi
7th Fleet: Based at Polaris
8th Fleet: Based at Regulus
9th Fleet: Based at Sirius
10th Fleet: Based at Laramis
11th Fleet: Based at Luyten 726-BA
12th Fleet (CONFIRMED): Based at Wolf 359 (a @#%$ assignment for Terrans)
13th Fleet: Based at Ross 128 (the REALLY Terran @#%$ assignment)
The 4th Fleet was based at Vega during the Great War and was still based at Vega during FS2 (I found specific in-game references to both), so I’m guessing the Terrans never re-organized the fleet deployments. The Terrans in the GTVA military are no doubt hoping that the 1st Fleet still exists and will rejoin the GTVA once contact is restored. This is why Earth still has the 1st Fleet based there; it’s also a morale issue. Acknowledging the loss of the 1st Fleet (the cream of the crop of the Terran military) would be a huge blow to morale, so it’s fleet designation was never changed. (This is ALL guesswork here, but I think it’s a good guess.)
NTF Defection notes: (If you want to verify this information, most of it is all in the technical database under the topics "Reconstruction" and "Neo-Terran Front". I’ve extrapolated the rest.)
The Reconstruction period after the Great War was a difficult time for the Terran and Vasudan peoples. The economy of both nations was in a shambles and the GTA even collapsed into several regional blocs. With the rise of Khonsu II, however, the Vasudans fared much better in the Reconstruction than the Terrans did, even including the fact that the Vasudans’ homeworld of Vasuda Prime had been obliterated by the SD Lucifer. The Vasudans’ economic recovery was nothing short of miraculous, while many of the Terran planets (Polaris, Regulus and Sirius in particular) had a much more difficult time recovering from the aftermath of the Great War. This engendered bitterness and resentment in many Terrans, particularly those of the "Lost Generation", those Terrans who grew up during the Reconstruction. Because of this resentment and bitterness, Bosch was able to quietly recruit many enthusiastic followers in the 6th Fleet (which he commanded at the time) to secretly join him and the NTF shortly before the start of the NTF Rebellion.
Once Bosch convinced parts of the 6th Fleet to defect to the NTF, he used these fleet assets to head from Epsilon Pegasi to Polaris and overthrow the government there. The 7th Fleet, based at Polaris, also decided to defect to the NTF once Bosch had made his overtures to them. The GTVA 6th Fleet was still in existence (I found specific references to the 6th Fleet in the Epsilon Pegasi missions in the single campaign; also, Epsilon Pegasi is a contested system, not a fully NTF-controlled system) so presumably NOT ALL of the 6th Fleet defected to the NTF, just a large enough amount to take Polaris with the 7th Fleet’s assistance.
The 8th and 9th Fleets defected to the NTF a few weeks after Bosch staged his revolt in Polaris as Bosch managed to make inroads into Regulus and Sirius. While a few units of these fleets MAY have stayed loyal to the GTVA, they presumably were overwhelmed by the units that defected to the NTF. This helps explains how Bosch was able to secure these three systems so quickly. Once Bosch had these three systems under his control, he had a significant resource base from which to conduct his secret agenda of contacting the Shivans while his subordinates conducted their campaign of conquest and genocide against the Vasudans.
With Polaris, Regulus and Sirius firmly in the hands of the NTF, it is safe to say that the 7th, 8th and 9th Fleets (those units that hadn't defected to the NTF) were effectively obliterated (or perhaps they fled to other Terran systems and were re-integrated into those fleets), while the units that did defect to the NTF became the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Fleets of the Neo-Terran Front. As a result, the 7th, 8th and 9th Fleets of the GTVA effectively ceased to exist.
Neo-Terran Front Fleet Organization Notes:
Neo-Terran 1st Fleet: Based at Polaris
Neo-Terran 2nd Fleet: Based at Regulus
Neo-Terran 3rd Fleet: Based at Sirius
I’ve set up the NTF fleets this way because of the "domino effect" that was referred to in the Neo-Terran Front" entry in the tech database. Polaris was the first to fall to the NTF. The next system on the jump node map was Regulus, which lay between Polaris and Sirius. For there to be a domino effect, the things have to fall in order. Thus, I reasoned that since Regulus fell before Sirius, Regulus should be the base of the 2nd Neo-Terran Fleet and Sirius should be the base of the 3rd Neo-Terran Fleet.
Once the NTF was able to push into Alpha Centauri, Deneb and Epsilon Pegasi, it’s reasonable to assume that Bosch had several months to use the manufacturing facilities on Polaris, Regulus and Sirius to churn out more ships for the NTF fleets. As for the people to crew these ships, Bosch had no shortage of potential recruits or conscripts. Polaris, Regulus and Sirius were heavily populated Terran planets with millions, maybe even billions, of disaffected and fanatical members of the "Lost Generation."
With this resource base, I think it is reasonable to say that Bosch created new NTF fleets to manage the campaigns in Alpha Centauri, Deneb and Epsilon Pegasi. And so….
Neo-Terran 4th Fleet: Based at Deneb
Neo-Terran 5th Fleet: Based at Alpha Centauri
Neo-Terran 6th Fleet: Based at Epsilon Pegasi
This leads to the question of whether NTF fleet Read admiral Koth and the NTD Repulse were stationed in the 6th Fleet or not. I THINK it could be the Neo-Terran 6th Fleet, but don't quote me on that just yet.
Some of you will notice that I put the NTF 6th Fleet in Epsilon Pegasi. You might also have noticed that the GTVA also has its 6th Fleet in Epsilon Pegasi. Coincidence? Or did I do it deliberately?
Hmmm…. What do you guys think? :lol 8) :smokin
GTVA Vasudan Battle Group Organization Notes:
List of Vasudan planets:
1st Battle Group: Aldebaran (it’s the Vasudan capital since Vasuda Prime was obliterated)
2nd Battle Group: Vasuda (the REALLY @#%$ assignment for Vasudans, for obvious reasons)
3rd Battle Group: Altair
11th Battle Group: Alpha Centauri
13th Battle Group (CONFIRMED): Based at Deneb
List of Terran planets but guarded by Vasudan Battle Groups:
4th Battle Group: Ikeya
5th Battle Group: Ribos
6th Battle Group: Adhara
7th Battle Group: Antares
8th Battle Group: Beta Cygni
9th Battle Group: Betelgeuse
10th Battle Group: Procyon A
12th Battle Group: Bernard’s Star (a Vasudan @#%$ assignment because it’s so far from Vasudan territory)
Keep in mind, this is a fleet organization that exists from the formulation of BETAC in 2358 and into the events of FS2. (I’m not even going to try to figure out how the fleets were organized in FS1; there are just too many inconsistencies to try.) If campaign designers wish to refer to this list for their campaigns that take place after FS2, please feel free to do so. You don’t have to, of course, but I wouldn’t mind in the least if you did. ;)
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I read it all, V. interesting.. Thanks for posting that Kara.
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I personally have a few reservations over Vasudan fleets being termed as battlegroups as IIRc there is at least one mission in the Vasudan 'arc' that refers explicitly to a Terran battlegroup.
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Maybe the vasudans call everything battlegroup and the terrans are more magnanimous about using other races (translated) terms.
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Only reason the one terran 'battle group' consitancy may be it was a mixed fleet, T and V's.
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It could be how the translator brings it out of Vasudan and into English; "fleet" may have a very different connotation in that language. Or it may just be the case where the two terms are intended to be synonymous, and are being used interchangeably.
And if we look at this in the context of what the two terms acually mean, they may be seperate and completely independent things. Typically a ship is assigned to a fleet once, and stays in that fleet until destroyed, decommissioned, or the fleet is disbanded (if the entire navy is restructured). Fleets are long-standing organizational units within a navy. They use common facilities for support, and usually consider one area or one location a home base, though they may not actively patrol that region directly. Battlegroups are short-lived groupings of ships, usually not numbered, formed during an active deployment, and used for purely tactical purposes. Battlegroups may include ships from multiple fleets (but not necessary all ships from any one fleet), and exist for the sole purpose of accomplishing some fixed mission. The way the term is used in Freespace actually indicates a fleet, not a true battlegroup, so I still lean toward the battlegroup=fleet argument.
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FS1: Sol
FS2: Delta Serpentis?
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I'm rather leery of FREDZone's veracity, myself.
I also recall a tech description that appears when you're with the Aquitaine referring to "the such and such Terran battlegroups".
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You're welcome to go through the game and check :p
Until then it's the best resource I know of for this sort of thing :)
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It would be nice if someone would put them up to the Wiki. They are definately an excellent source of reference for a campaign/mission developer.
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Mentions of 'battlegroup';
sm1-01 brief
[q]
Allied Command has ordered the Aquitaine into the Deneb system. There we will reinforce the 13th Vasudan Battle Group, led by the GVD Psamtik.
[/q]
sm1-06 briefing (NB: informal mention)
[q]
With recent victories on the civil war front, the GTVA Security Council has authorized the deployment of two Deimos-class corvettes into the nebular theatre of operations. The Lysander and the Actium crossed the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis at 2335 hours and joined up with the Aquitaine's battle group.[/q]
sm1-07
[q]This is Lieutenant Samsa. The allied attack against the SD Ravana has deteriorated. We've lost the GTD Delacroix, and the surviving warships in the battle group are damaged. Petrarch is scrambling the 107th to assist. Command will also sortie the GVC Somtus and the GTC Yakiba. Once they cross the subspace portal, we will move them into position.[/q]
loop1-2 (NTF)
[q]As you have no doubt already heard, the GVD Psamtik has destroyed the NTD Cyrene, flagship of the Sirius fleet. As bad as things look in Polaris, the situation in Sirius is even worse. Bosch has redeployed our battle group to reinforce NTF positions in that system.[/q]
loop1-3(NTF); note that 'fleet' is used in the next briefing stage
[q]I'm Lieutenant Commander Jack Niven, your new squadron leader. Commander Snipes has been reassigned, so until further notice, you'll get your orders from me. With the 13th and 11th Vasudan battle groups advancing, we have a hard fight ahead of us. If we lose Sirius, our backs will be against the wall. The NTF has fought too hard to surrender now.
MISSION BRIEFING 2
The 4th Fleet, based in Vega, is providing the Vasudans with logistical support. They've established a cargo depot near the Alpha Centauri jump node. Recon reports a perimeter defense of 16 sentry guns, and fighter patrols inspect the depot at regular intervals. The 185th has been called in to sever that supply line. All targets are of Terran construction.[/q]
sm2-01
[q]News from the Front
At 2150, the Colossus entered the Polaris system and neutralized the NTD Andronicus and the NTC Camisard, securing the jump node from Epsilon Pegasi. Meanwhile, the 13th Vasudan Battle Group has destroyed the NTD Cyrene and gained foothold in Sirius. Intelligence reports that Admiral Bosch and his elite guard have withdrawn to the rebel enclave of Regulus.
Command anticipates a total allied victory in less than 30 days.[/q]
sm2-04
[q]Bosch's Gambit
We have received news of an alarming development on the civil war front. Massing his forces in the Regulus system, Admiral Bosch outmaneuvered the Colossus and its battle group. The rebel armada is now en route for the Gamma Draconis system, via Polaris, Epsilon Pegasi, and Capella.
Their final destination: the Knossos subspace portal.[/q]
sm2-07
[q]Twilight
This is Admiral Khafre, commanding officer of the GVD Psamtik, 13th Vasudan Battle Group.
The NTF rebellion is over. Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius are now under allied control, and we begin the process of rebuilding these systems after 18 months of bloodshed. NTF officers responsible for the genocide of Vasudan civilians will face a war crimes tribunal in Beta Aquilae. GTVA warships in the nebula are now hunting down the Iceni and the other blockade runners.
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DEBRIEFING 2
A Vasudan never leaves the field of battle without authorization from a superior officer. Your cowardice jeopardized the lives of our brothers and sisters. You are hereby stripped of your wings and all privileges bestowed upon you as an officer of the Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance. You will be taken into custody and handed over to the Terran 3rd Battle Group authority, where you will face a court martial. You are a disgrace to your species, Terran.[/q]
(NB: debrief is reused elsewhere)
So...... IMO there's use of 'battle group' to describe a group of ships not equal to a fleet, at least in informal terms. The 'formal' use seems to be limited to specific vasudan groups, though.
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Also notice that the terran fleets are never given a number except when refered to as a fleet.
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(I’m not even going to try to figure out how the fleets were organized in FS1; there are just too many inconsistencies to try.)
Inconsistencies?
GTA fleets aren't permanently stationed in any system other than propably having an assigned homeport, where the fleets can R&R after coming back from a long patrolling tour. FSRB: "While a temporary stay makes any inhabitants of the system happy, a prolonged tour of duty in a system instills fear into the hearts of civilians." So they patrol around the systems, looking for trouble.;)
Based on my assumption (and a very realistical one at that) that there is only one Orion per fleet (the flagship), then we are left with 5-6 fleets (one for every Orion; Galatea, Intrepid, Minnow, Amadeus, Eisenhower and Bastion).
The only thing we don't know is that was the destroyed 4th fleet ever replaced. The following fleets and their respective flagships are confirmed in FS1:
3rd Fleet: GTD Amadeus
4th Fleet: GTD Eisenhower (destroyed in 2333, replaced?)
5th Fleet: GTD Bastion
As for Silent Threat, there were four more Orions (or were there more than that?); Myrmidon, Krios, Soykaze (sp?) and the, umm, GTD :ha: As far as I understood, they all belonged to the GTI (Special Operations Branch?), and therefore weren't part of the "normal" fleet organizations.
One must wonder though how the GTI can have a fleet in power almost equal to the GTA (especially during the 14th Year War and the Great War). I guess the break-up of the GTA due to economical reasons can then be attributed to the GTI. ;)
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Originally posted by Andreas
Inconsistencies?
GTA fleets aren't permanently stationed in any system other than propably having an assigned homeport, where the fleets can R&R after coming back from a long patrolling tour. FSRB: "While a temporary stay makes any inhabitants of the system happy, a prolonged tour of duty in a system instills fear into the hearts of civilians." So they patrol around the systems, looking for trouble.;)
Technically, that only applies to the GTD Orions; it may be that a fleet controls / patrols several systems, with the Orion travelling between them (providing additional fighter cover when necessary; i.e. on top of wings from Arcadias), but with cruisers and supporting ships stationed permanently in certain systems.
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Absolutely, I thought the same. But has it been established anywhere how many cruisers an FS1-era fleet might have? I would like to think no more than 10, and preferably more Fenris' than Leviathans.
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I think that the GTA's fleets had no fixed bases; this is a result of many years of seesaw warfare and the consequent development of a logistical system that can support them without fixed "home base" areas. With the advantage constantly changing hands, the GTA would have been wise to develop the capablity to support its fleets without the need for fixed installations. These, after all, might be overrun, and cannot pack up and move along if there's a sudden enemy collapse.
The GTVA has no reason to have such an independant capablity, as their fleets have been essentially in garrison for the last 20 years and so far the current setup had proved workable for the problem of the NTF.
The GTD Krios was the only destroyer officially assigned to GTI on a permanent basis: so it says in your command briefing when you come aboard.
The Soyakaze and Myrmidon are both regular GTA destroyers: the Myrmidon was temporarily seconded to GTI for the Einstein escape-pod recovery but was a regular navy ship, the Soyakaze never operated under GTI control as far as we know, though she absorbed the remains of the Krios' squadrons. The unknown destroyer that recovered some of the Einstein escape pods is almost certainly GTI, and is similarly almost certainly not supposed to exist, as the Krios is the only authorized GTI destroyer: it's a wonder Command didn't raise hell about somebody having an Orion when they aren't supposed to, unless Orions are a lot more common they we've been lead to believe.
Come to think of it, there's a continuity error in FS1 about the Bastion. You operate off the Bastion for the Ikeya shield-tech recovery mission that fails, but prior to Doomsday, when discussing the blockade, the command briefing you get says that Command is sending the newly commissioned GTD Bastion to assist the Galatea. The implied subtext is that things are desperate, because the Bastion hasn't gone through even a shakedown cruise to make sure everything works.
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Perhaps the GTD Myrmidon and the GTD Soyakaze were under construction during the T-V/Great War, and were spared destruction (they would replace the Galatea and Amadeus respectively)?
According to the SB Nephilim tech description, "We have already lost two Orion class destroyers to a wing of Nephilims.", there is still one other destroyed Orion (if we take that assumption that GTD Amadeus was indeed destroyed by Nephilims), could that be the GTD Minnow (Hippo, I know your campaign has that ship, so don't get mad ;))?
How long after Silent Threat is supposed to take place anyways? A month, a year? I suppose the GTD ??? was of secret construction, along with Hades.
Incidentally, the tech entry for the Amun: "It carries a massive payload and has been responsible for the destruction of at least 3 Orion class destroyers in the past 2 years." 3 Orions? :sigh: So in total there have already been 9 destroyers existing in the T-V war. Very interesting. I wonder how much a single Orion costs? ;)
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Is there a list of these destroyers?
Intrepid
Eisenhower
Galatea
Minnow
Myrmidon
Bastion
Phoenecia
Amadeus
Soyakaze
There's alot. NTF ships weren't renamed after defection, where they? :p (Although, it'd make more sense if they were, since there'd be a pattern. 'The repulse, and vindication have rebelled. We're watching you retribution....')
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I wonder if any of the Orions the NTF had were built during the T-V/Great War? Bastion was decomissioned after only 30 years, so I guess at least some of the NTF's ships could be that old, since I got the impression that they were basically backwater systems, so the GTVA wouldn't have been in a hurry to modernise them so quickly.
Ugh, my head is starting to hurt. :sigh:
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Originally posted by Andreas
I wonder if any of the Orions the NTF had were built during the T-V/Great War? Bastion was decomissioned after only 30 years, so I guess at least some of the NTF's ships could be that old, since I got the impression that they were basically backwater systems, so the GTVA wouldn't have been in a hurry to modernise them so quickly.
Ugh, my head is starting to hurt. :sigh:
But they were upfitted with beam weaponry like the rest of the fleet, and they were fully stocked with fighters (albeit old ones) by the looks of it. That points to active deployment at the time of defection, as does the number of Deimos corvettes that they had available. Unless the Polaris shipyards had a boneyard where the Orions were mothballed (again, unlikely, because the Bastion and Nereid both were pulled out of mothball status from somewhere else.
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Well... there was a long war with the Vasudans, and a short, but more deadly one with the shivans... so I'd expect all of the capital ships, mothballed or not, to have a large complement of fighters around.
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Very true, I forgot the beams. So, would it be more cost-effective to build a new Orion with beams rather than to upgrade existing but old design, which would perhaps require extensive reactor and system upgrades?
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Or just steal an active one. The Shipyard (completed) mission that is an example of how to use FRED operates on that premise. Though I do get the impression that most of the destroyers that "defected" were actually stolen out from under a much smaller crew than their normal operating levels. I mean, what are the odds that most of a 10,000 man crew actually want to defect?
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I meant that what happened to the old Orions like the Intrepid that survived the Great War? Were they upgraded to have beams or simply scrapped and have the GTVA shipyards churn out new ones with beams?
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I'd imagine that would have more to do with when they were retired than anything else. Though the hull and the interior condition may not have been on a direct correlation, destroyers that were relatively new in FS1 would have been the oldest ones in the fleet by the time of FS2, with many of the FS1-era destroyers getting destroyed during that timespan. I'd also assume that the reactor overhaul necessary to mount heavy beam weaponry on the Orions would have necessitated major refits, and some of the Orions may have simply been incompatible with the changes based on the age of the technology inside. They obviously aren't the same internally though, as evidenced by the Bastion's mainhall vs. the Galatea's.
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Originally posted by StratComm
They obviously aren't the same internally though, as evidenced by the Bastion's mainhall vs. the Galatea's.
Well...that might be a bit of a dodgy assumption, as the mainhalls might simply be in different places on the ship..........
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I think it's a safe assumption, as they both are supposed to be in the hanger bay. Though one could certainly make an argument for different camera position, it's pretty much standard practice to make minor alterations to an existing hull design, especially internally, as demands dictate.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
The GTD Krios was the only destroyer officially assigned to GTI on a permanent basis: so it says in your command briefing when you come aboard.
Not really. It says the Krios is the GTI's Special Ops destroyer. Not the GTI's destroyer, period. Which implies there are other GTI destroyers not assigned to Special Ops.
The Myrmidon is most likely a GTI destroyer. The Soyakaze could go either way... it could be a loyal GTI destroyer that was absorbed into the GTA after most of the GTI went rogue, or it could be a regular GTA destroyer all along.The command briefing you get says that Command is sending the newly commissioned GTD Bastion to assist the Galatea.
It never says that. It says "Command is sending another destroyer, the GTD Bastion." There's nothing that indicates the Bastion was newly commissioned.Originally posted by Andreas
According to the SB Nephilim tech description, "We have already lost two Orion class destroyers to a wing of Nephilims.", there is still one other destroyed Orion (if we take that assumption that GTD Amadeus was indeed destroyed by Nephilims), could that be the GTD Minnow (Hippo, I know your campaign has that ship, so don't get mad ;))?
The Minnow stays around at least until the end of Act 2, during the defense of Vasuda prime.I wonder how much a single Orion costs? ;)
"..., the cost to build one of these far outweighs the cost of paying the crew of this ship for 3 years." ;)Originally posted by Raa
Phoenecia
I don't think there's a Phoenicia in FS1.
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I think that GTI and GTI Special Operations are the same. Like SOC is to the GTVI. Considering that the GTA would have hardly authorized the construction of more than one or two Orions for the GTI, the GTD Krios is certainly a GTI destroyer, and maybe also the Soyakaze.
But like in FS1, League of Defense could "loan" their ships to use in GTI sanctioned operations, so I don't see anything wrong with Myrmidon being a GTA destroyer, on loan for use in GTI ops.
I was just speculating about the Minnow, though I think that the tech entry for the Nephilim does appear before Minnow is even mentioned.
As for GTD Phoenicia, she was a Hecate-class destroyer in FS2.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Not really. It says the Krios is the GTI's Special Ops destroyer. Not the GTI's destroyer, period. Which implies there are other GTI destroyers not assigned to Special Ops.
The Myrmidon is most likely a GTI destroyer. The Soyakaze could go either way... it could be a loyal GTI destroyer that was absorbed into the GTA after most of the GTI went rogue, or it could be a regular GTA destroyer all along.It never says that.
Perhaps...but there are problems with that. What use besides special ops would GTI have for a combatant craft as large and as powerful as an Orion? A destroyer is too big and too useful as a main combatant for escort or guard duty. Arcadias have their own fighter wings for that, and cruisers are the ideal escort craft. The combat power of an Orion is simply too much to be wasted so. You don't use ships of the line to escort merchant convoys. Orions operated at the front throughout FS1, holding the line or pushing the enemy back, and we know of no cases where they were pulled out of the front line any longer then absolutely necessary.
The Soyakaze is almost definitely a GTA ship: recall that your first command briefing aboard it says the the GTA has declared ALL of GTI (outside of your band of Krios survivors, who they presumably trust because GTI shot at you), to be traitors, and authorized all GTA craft to engage them on contact.
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An Orion can also serve as a central command facility for a fleet. It's mobile, so it can go where the fleet goes. And its operations do not have to be limited to special operations.
In Silent Threat: Reborn, we gave the GTI three sections, special ops, intelligence, and research and development. Each has their own fleets headed by an Orion.
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Here's a guess: maybe Bosch arranged for GTVA capital ships to be retrofitted in the general area of Polaris, citing economic renewal as reasons. The upper levels of the civillian government - especially jealous of the Vasudans' quick recovery, as their systems are doing even worse than the rest of the GTVA - put pressure on the GTVA to award these lucrative defense contracts to them.
Bosch's solution seems like an opportunity to quash the complaints while getting the capital ships retrofitted for a slightly cheaper price. Plus, no new expensive training/drydocks are needed for work on all new designs; everyone and everything is already equipped to handle Great War-era ships. So, the ships are sent over to the shipyards with a skeleton crew.
Bosch takes advantage of the lingering discontent at Vasudans; possibly stages an 'incident' or two. (Remember how in the escort-the-Iceni mission, Snipes was quick to blame the Vasudans for asteroid damage to the Hinton? Same principal applies here. :p)
With refits nearly complete, the rebels take control of the vessels and Bosch declares the NTF an independent entity. Command goes "Oh crap!"; enter Freespace 2.
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As for the Iceni, I'm not sure whether Command knew about it or not, which sort of throws a kink into things, but not really. It actually sort of reinforces the above theory.
Command was quick to try and make pilots believe that Bosch wasn't on the station, and wanted to destroy it. They could be covering up an experimental new capital ship...or simply wanting Bosch to disappear, so there would be no chance of him becoming a martyr, and less chance of someone assuming control of the fleet. The hull also seems to be similar in composition to the Colossus', maybe indicating a next-generation ship?
This isn't supported by the fact that Command tells you to investigate the asteroid. Although that could be explained as them being curious if Bosch had taken control of it, or because the weird grey-sphere things were actually engines and Bosch repositioned the installation so the GTVA wouldn't find it.
Maybe it was even another GTI ship, or a testbed for Colossus systems.
If Command didn't know, then it was probably done by Bosch to serve solely for the ETAK deal. (The Iceni's double-jump at the Knossos could've been facilitated by special jump capacitors) But of course all the NTF technicians would be told that it was a Neo-terran flagship, and giggle about how they'd pulled one on Command by using the beam weapons intended for retrofitting existing capital ships to build a cool new frigate.
Regardless, construction of the Iceni would require weapons and components. But with a retrofit, that wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Say you need beam cannons. Well, you classify the final destinations of such weaponry somewhat beyond the people taking them in-system. They know where they're going; obviously, shipyard/drydock locations would be fairly well know.
But they don't know exactly where. They can't track their exact path.
On the other side of things, you keep very accurate records of where things went. But when you want some beam cannons for the Iceni, you tell station A that station B got this beam cannon; station B, when it checks the same records, is told that Station A got the beam cannon.
The end result is that everyone is either in on the Iceni, and therefore gone through security checks, or thinks that somebody else got and used the beam cannon. The high volume of vessels being retrofitted would mean that tiny changes in the supplies wouldn't be as noticeable.
Whee. :p
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
With refits nearly complete, the rebels take control of the vessels and Bosch declares the NTF an independent entity. Command goes "Oh crap!"; enter Freespace 2.
One small problem. Bosch wasn't based in Polaris. Bosch was the commander of the 6th fleet based in Epsilon Pegasi. Once the rebellion started Bosch was either pushed or moved into Polaris and set up his base there.
Seems odd that he could stage a rebellion in Polaris while not based in that system.
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Originally posted by karajorma
One small problem. Bosch wasn't based in Polaris. Bosch was the commander of the 6th fleet based in Epsilon Pegasi.
Is that canon?
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I seem to remember reading it somewhere. I can't remember where now though and without VPView installed at the moment I can't check.
It's worth pointing out that one of the FA campaign ideas was based on that fact so it seems likely that I'm not the only person who has that idea from somewhere.
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I've read it in a few places, but it may be one of those non-canon ideas people just latched on to. Like Su-Tehp's fleet organization. :)
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From species table
Eighteen months ago, Admiral Aken Bosch, commander of the GTVA 6th Fleet, launched a violent military coup in the Polaris system. Within weeks, a regional domino effect also toppled the governments of Regulus and Sirius, all swearing allegiance to Bosch and his Neo-Terran Front.
Note that later on in FS2 the 6th Fleet is quite clearly based in Epsilon Pegasi. Now it's possible that they moved there after the NTF rebellion but that seems somewhat unlikely to me.
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I was just about to edit my post. :) Well, at least that's settled then.
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Originally posted by karajorma
One small problem. Bosch wasn't based in Polaris. Bosch was the commander of the 6th fleet based in Epsilon Pegasi. Once the rebellion started Bosch was either pushed or moved into Polaris and set up his base there.
Seems odd that he could stage a rebellion in Polaris while not based in that system.
I always assumed that Admiral Bosch's area of responsibilities included more than one system, and actually, the same for most of the rest of the fleet. In Bosch's case, it's almost a necessity unless he was able to completely wipe out the GTVA fleets in Polaris and Regulus.
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I suspect he got them to defect in large numbers rather than simply beating them. There are far too many NTF ships in the campaign for it to be mostly made up of ex-6th fleet ships.
Now that could be due to him controlling and subverting those systems before the rebellion or it could be due to him convincing them to defect later.
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I recall mention somewhere that a lot of the ships were reconditioned from the Polaris boneyard...but I can't remember where or who said it.
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I'm sure there's text somewhere in the game indicating a large number of ships defected to the NTF; enough to indicate most of them I believe.
I had a neat wee 'script' written for a mini-campaign when Bosch made his first play for power, incidentally...... I really must dig it out sometime.
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If I recall, aldo, one of the X missions from the Sim of the Year edition involved the start of the NTF rebellion. It might give you a few ideas...or you could already know about it and have used it. :p
I'm guessing the general consensus is that more than one destroyer was assigned to each fleet, in contrast to what someone suggested earlier. At least in my opinion, we see and hear about far too many destroyers during the campaign for them to be that rare.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
If I recall, aldo, one of the X missions from the Sim of the Year edition involved the start of the NTF rebellion. It might give you a few ideas...or you could already know about it and have used it. :p
I didn't actually...albeit my idea was centred around the player being a sort of merc / trader type with a single small fighter and a transport, so it wasn't so much about large battles as nosing around......
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Originally posted by Mongoose
I'm guessing the general consensus is that more than one destroyer was assigned to each fleet, in contrast to what someone suggested earlier. At least in my opinion, we see and hear about far too many destroyers during the campaign for them to be that rare.
I was referring to FS1-era in my posts.
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Ah. Even then, though, I think there were at least a few more destroyers than that. They definitely weren't up to FS2 levels, though.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
Ah. Even then, though, I think there were at least a few more destroyers than that. They definitely weren't up to FS2 levels, though.
While your guess is as good as mine, since we don't have any canon information from :v: in regards of the fleet organizations during FS1, there's a lot of reasons that lead me to believe that there is only one Orion per fleet.
First of all, we never get to see more than one Orion during mission (granted, that was to keep the framerates acceptable back in '98, but that's an out-of-universe explanation, and therefore not valid ;) ). Second, we are never told of any other Orions that for example, would accompany the Galatea (for example in the asteroid escort mission). Third, I've always thought that Orions are one of the most expensive things to build ever, and therefore their cost would prevent widespread deployment.