Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jetmech Jr. on April 21, 2005, 09:37:41 pm
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Because if a thread on SC can be made, this deserves one too...
Does anyone still play it? Or did you get fed up with imbalances as well?
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Dawn of War is the game people played for about 5min before WoW came, right?
Heard it was good.
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I played the single player, and noticed that it was unbalanced and now I never even touch it.
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What is unbalanced about it? I was thinking of picking this up after i get my new video card.
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I don't know about unbalanced, but single player was a lot of fun. Very good game in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Mr. Fury
I don't know about unbalanced, but single player was a lot of fun. Very good game in my opinion.
:yes:
First time in years when I really liked a RTS.
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I thought it was quite good and fun to watch the battles.
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Originally posted by Liberator
What is unbalanced about it? I was thinking of picking this up after i get my new video card.
Well, assuming that Relic Gets off its Ass and Finally patches the damned thing, I WOULD advise getting it. The game is fun. But Multiplayer...Thats fuzzy. The Game can get terribly unbalanced in Multiplayer.
Each race is unbalanced in it's own little ways, some more than others. Eldar have a number of things, both good and horribly bad. What stands out is the Fire Prism. It's a 4000+ HP Ultra-quick Tank, with a Beam that deals Good damage to EVERYTHING and has Splash/Knockdown, Flight, and an Anti-Infantry Weapon that actually chews through Vehicles faster than said Beam. And it's cheap and spammable.
Space Marines are the only race that can keep a Unit locked down. I.E. 4 Assault Terminators costing about 400 will annihilate an Avatar or Bloodthirster without losing a single member thanks to a stun-stacking ability of theirs. SM players also have the Scout rush, where they spam cheap, fast, effective scouts like no tomorrow. Against players of equal to slightly higher skill, there is little you can do without intensive studying, and even then there's no guarantee.
Chaos Space Marines have Possessed Space Marines, which Can Tear down a Mid-level SM base in a minute. Flat. 1 Minute. Did I mention this unit is available 1-3 minutes into the game, and does horrifying damage to regular units, too? Otherwise, chaos is pretty weak, though. Substandard anti-vehicle.
Orks are just frightening. The Wartrakk rush is tough. Ork buildings have guns, meaning they can fortify their bases VERY easily, allowing for a quick Fast-Tech to Wartrakks, very fast Vehicles that deal sickening amounts of damage to anything not vehicular (and Quite frankly, the odds of having any sort of anti-vehicle unit at this time is...not likely).
There are some other issues, but those are some of the most oft-complained about.
Really, it's a very good game. I just wish the damned folks at Relic would fix it, already...
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Well they're adding the Imperial Guard race now too with the expansion pack.
It's possible they might fix some of the balance issues with the expansion pack.
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I liked DOW....
It is a challenge to adapt to the enemy, and that's why I love the game.
Enemy attacking you with his termies? - equip your marines with plasma!
Emeny attacking with Tanks? - take rocket launchers
Infantry rush? - Heavy Bolters will chew them up.
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Well, assuming that Relic Gets off its Ass and Finally patches the damned thing, I WOULD advise getting it. The game is fun. But Multiplayer...Thats fuzzy. The Game can get terribly unbalanced in Multiplayer.
Each race is unbalanced in it's own little ways, some more than others. Eldar have a number of things, both good and horribly bad. What stands out is the Fire Prism. It's a 4000+ HP Ultra-quick Tank, with a Beam that deals Good damage to EVERYTHING and has Splash/Knockdown, Flight, and an Anti-Infantry Weapon that actually chews through Vehicles faster than said Beam. And it's cheap and spammable.
Space Marines are the only race that can keep a Unit locked down. I.E. 4 Assault Terminators costing about 400 will annihilate an Avatar or Bloodthirster without losing a single member thanks to a stun-stacking ability of theirs. SM players also have the Scout rush, where they spam cheap, fast, effective scouts like no tomorrow. Against players of equal to slightly higher skill, there is little you can do without intensive studying, and even then there's no guarantee.
Chaos Space Marines have Possessed Space Marines, which Can Tear down a Mid-level SM base in a minute. Flat. 1 Minute. Did I mention this unit is available 1-3 minutes into the game, and does horrifying damage to regular units, too? Otherwise, chaos is pretty weak, though. Substandard anti-vehicle.
Orks are just frightening. The Wartrakk rush is tough. Ork buildings have guns, meaning they can fortify their bases VERY easily, allowing for a quick Fast-Tech to Wartrakks, very fast Vehicles that deal sickening amounts of damage to anything not vehicular (and Quite frankly, the odds of having any sort of anti-vehicle unit at this time is...not likely).
There are some other issues, but those are some of the most oft-complained about.
Really, it's a very good game. I just wish the damned folks at Relic would fix it, already...
So they all have strong units and weaknesses? mmh... :doubt:
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Actually thats a problem. The best balanced RTS games show that you need a mix of units to overcome the enemies mix. Whoever mixes and places better wins.
Its a rock paper scissors type of setup.
In C&C Generals a tank rush can be countered in numbers by rocket launcher units (all sides have them), infantry rushes beaten off by other infantry and light vehicles (like humvees, gatling tanks, and technicals or toxin tractors), and air units are light and easily destroyed by units that are capable of countering them but of course air is very mobile and fast striking so defenses have to be planned.
In Warcraft III its more complicated by different armor types, weapon types, heroes, and spell caster/anti-spellcasters. But its like C&C Generals in that there is a requirement for a balance of units in a rock/paper/scissors like combination.
If one unit manages to fill all roles and is easily built then why bother building anything else. The game degenerates into whoever can build the killer unit faster...and if one team gets it sooner in the tech tree then its easier for that side to win than another.
RTS games are very complex to balance.
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Originally posted by Nico
So they all have strong units and weaknesses? mmh... :doubt:
Don't get smart with me, pal :p
It doesn't work like that. Take the Scout rush, for example. Scouts have 3/4ths the damage of Space Marines, only 50 less Hp, and run as fast as an Eldar using Fleet of Foot. They also aren't affected by the slowing effects of Cover. They can dictate When and where they take you on, and they can utterly ruin your economy by dashing in, Decapping your points, and dashing out with super speed. They cost 1 Pop cap, and are the ONLY unit with that low cost. They also come out at 90 Req, remarkably cheap for their abilities.
This strategy can be performed at a SUBSTANTIALLY lower player skill. And there are Few to no counters, as the first Scouts usually start ****ing with you at 40 Seconds in.
Eldar Fire Prisms. Are uncounterable. NOTHING in the entire game beats them on cost. Not even anti-Vehicle units. LasPreds come out Far later, and cost twice as much. Vs 2 Fire Prisms, it MIGHT come out with 50 Health. A dedicated anti vehicle platform will fight 2 Vehicles on equivalent cost, and Fight to a draw. When you up the numbers, it gets worse. Prism Cannons have an ENORMOUS AoE. They can hit several Targets with one shot.
A good Eldar player can have these out at 5-7 Minutes in.
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Mmh. Well, to be honest, I always considered it odd to have a WH40k game with unit production. If I were to make a WH RTS, I'd do a bastardized version of the tabletop game: I'd give the player a number of points to spend before the battle starts, you give orders of reinforcements, something like that, and your units would then come depending on what happens ingame ( if you get a major ass wooping, the next wave of reinforcement comes earlier, stuff like that ). That way you can keep the restrictions on units the tabletop game as, and you'd have to think better than sacrifying your units in rushes.
But I know, I'm weird.
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It's fun for a stint but not unique.
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Originally posted by Nico
Mmh. Well, to be honest, I always considered it odd to have a WH40k game with unit production.
And what did you think of the WH first person shooter? That one hadn´t anything to do with the original either, but in comparison this RTS is a gold gem! The FPS was just horrible! Simply appalling! Worst i´ve seen yet. I couldn´t play it for more than 10 minutes, i had to stop playing it to avoid major damage to my brain. Now there´s a game they should have left well alone...
:ick: :ick: :ick:
PS: Reinstalled WH: Dawn of War today again, and i´m having a blast.
If they added air units, a few more ground units, and some new buildings and walls in the sequel, it would become a super game.
The bigger problem of it now, is its very little variety in units and buildings. Fix that, and you get a major sucess.
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Actually Nico, I would of prefered a bastardised version of the table top game also. Something more akin to Rome: Total War would of been quite nice indeed.
With a much simplified campaign mode so as to focus more on the battles.
Maybe one day someone will make a WH40k: Total War mod. :)
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DOW is a fraggin' awesome game!
It's not as balanced as StarCraft, but then what is?! That game is a work of art!
That said, it's balance is okay - If you LEARN your side, you can beat almost any other side, but you have to be very flexible.
It also depends heavily on what your objectives are and the map size.
On a small map with annihilate, a good marine player can destroy almost anyone.
On a large annihilate map, eldar are very hard to defeat - They can drop fire-prisms in the middle of your base which has pretty much the same effect as the 9xPrism-tank|Chronosphere finisher in C&C.
We normally play take-and-hold type mission: All sides are very balanced in that.
Orks and Eldar are very good at taking points, but have trouble holding them whereas both Marine-types are harder to capture points with but once they dig in they're bloody hard to get rid of without using all your forces.
Eldar are my favorite team - They the fastest race in the game and you can capture lots of points very early on. Their agility also lets them wizz from one side of the map to the other, which is awesome for counter-attacks and reinforcing.
The other race I tend to play are the Space Marines - They play very differently than the Eldar - Unlike the Eldar, their units are built like brick s**t-houses, but they are very slow, so you have to plan well in advance because it's hard to reinforce them if something goes wrong. The one trick they have up their sleave is their teleport beacon - Dropping a commander unit into a scouted base so he can nuke it, or just a crap-load of dreadnoughts anywhere, is great fun ;7
I don't have too much experience with Chaos or Orks, but I do know the Squiggoth is a right bastard to get rid of :eek2:
The Avatar and Khorne suck compared to the Squiggoth - You can kill them with some upgraded commander units and some dreads/fire-prisms! The squiggy on the other hand... haven't found a good way to counter it aside from throwing lots of bodies at it until it goes away :(
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Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
And what did you think of the WH first person shooter? That one hadn´t anything to do with the original either, but in comparison this RTS is a gold gem! The FPS was just horrible! Simply appalling! Worst i´ve seen yet. I couldn´t play it for more than 10 minutes, i had to stop playing it to avoid major damage to my brain. Now there´s a game they should have left well alone...
:ick: :ick: :ick:
Well, what did I think about Firewarrior? At first I was overjoyed ( at first, I mean when I started playing it, not the original announcement, I was quite... doubtful about it ). I'm a warhammer and warhammer40k player, and in 40K, I play Tau. And the atmosphere, I think, was very clause to what I imagined.
All in all, I don't think it was a bad game. The bases are there I think, it's rather fun to play too. But it lacks something, and there were parts that were horrible ( the difficulty, the second time you meet the space marines, when an assault team warps on the bridge of the cruise, man, it took me a dozen tries to beat that part ). I still haven't completed it, I'm stuck in the last level, not far after you go through a chaotic portal, iirc.
What did I think of it? Well, I don't think much of it, to sum up. It wasn't a great FPS, but it wasn't a waste of money either, I think.
Grug: it seems that Dawn of War was a major hit, and they're making an addon ( with baneblade tanks and other big stuff, from the screenshots ), called "Winter -something-". Maybe they'll tune up the game better with it, like they did with Frozen Throne for Warcraft3 and Firestorm for Tiberian Sun ( IMHO those two addons upgraded their games very well ).
As for the game, I only played the demo, so I have no opinion on it. I just remembre liking how the ork buildings were "built" :p
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Winter Assault.
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Aye, you can check it out on the Official web site.
It adds a fifth team, being the Imperial Guard. yay... =/
But yeah, I used to play Tau too. :)
Was severely dissapointed at the FPS game though... ergh...
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I've got DoW. It's okay but it seems kinda soulless to me...
I just didn't get any feeling as I wiped out the enemy.
At least when you have a Shivan or a Trandoshan under your sights you feel like you're doing something.
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Originally posted by Deathstorm V2
I've got DoW. It's okay but it seems kinda soulless to me...
I just didn't get any feeling as I wiped out the enemy.
At least when you have a Shivan or a Trandoshan under your sights you feel like you're doing something.
You're kidding me, right? It has more character in "blowing stuff up" then a lot of RTS games. Mainly because there's not so much the "one building survives and they rebuild their whole base in three minutes" syndrome.
Plus the attack and death animations for the units have style.
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I love the death animations. It's really fun just to send a bunch of scouts to their death so you can just watch their melee death animations. >D
I think some could of been improved though. If they had gibs, and maming. Woah boy this would of kicked arse. Better yet, custom death animations for each gun. Aka Fallout style.
So a Las cannon to the chest would incinerate a massive hole in them, and they'd just fall over dead, blood streaming out anime style.
Then you could have heavy bolter deaths, where they get pelted over and over and their chest is ripped open, bullet by bullet.
Ooo, or the Eldar weapons. That would be nasty. Fill their victims with shrapnel.
Oh, and the chainsword, mus'nt forget that now can we? Commanders cutting a bloody swathe through the masses, limbs and heads falling to the ground all around him.
Muhahaha! :D
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Really, I'm just waiting for the Tyranid Mod to finish up. And the Tau Mod. And the Necron Mod.
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Kewl. Kindof been out of the DoW community of late. Keep me posted if they ever do finish those mods, or release some sort of beta pack.
How far are they, anything ingame yet?
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Necron Mod has several Units ingame, IIRC.
Tyranid Mod has a ton of models, and Alpha (though I'm not sure if they have any of the models in it) release, and they're working on rigging and animating the Genestealers and Infestation Markers.
The Tau Mod, IIRC, has had a bunch of ingame units for a while now. Not sure about recently though, haven't checked much lately.
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Hmmm, got a linky?
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Necron Mod: http://www.c-l-r.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4
Tyranid Mod: http://www.dudeslair.com/tyranids/
Tau Mod: http://www.xv15mods.com/tau/
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That Tau mod looks pretty bloody awsome. Excellent.
Can't wait to spam gun drones all over the place. >D
The other two sites seem to time out for me though...
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They work for me.
Thats a shame, cuz for the Necrons, I linked to their Pictures thread. They got WAY more done than I thought...Like this:
(http://img177.echo.cx/img177/3639/relic000510qq.jpg)
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I tried again and the links are working now.
That necron mod looks bloody awsome.
Can't find any pics of the Tyrinids ingame. Might have to d/l the alpha and test it out.
Are there any other mods for different teams being made out there? Might have to do some google searches I will... :)
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There's a Grey Knights mod that's pretty much finished. (the models are SWEET, though it's not balanced at all): http://www.innocence-proves-nothing.com/
There's a Dark Eldar Mod. (Not sure as to the site at the moment. I think one of the other sites I posted links to it)
There's an imperial Guard Mod. (Search for Cadian Inquisition. That's the name of the mod.
The Tyranid alpha only uses placeholders (Space Marines as Genestealers). You can find Pictures in the Animation and Models Subforums.
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Y'know, I play DoW a fair bit too, and I think the thought of it being unbalanced is crap. I play Eldar mostly, and the Fire Prisms are bloody useless against anything but massed units and buildings. A squad of Assault Marines will **** it up. You need a good mix of units with all of the races. Sure, the spam tactics work, but all it takes to defeat a Wartruk rush is a few D-Cannons. Seer squads do suprisingly well against vehicles too. The only units that really give me trouble are Defilers. Even worse than Fire Prisms. Its basically a spider walking Leman Russ tank with claws, flame throwers and cannons. It is both an artillery and support/assault vehicle rolled into one scary looking platform. A pair of these bastards can smash most defenses if ignored, and they have the ability to shrug off most infantry. I had a relic literally surrounded by 2 rows of D-Cannons. I looked away for about 10 seconds to assault a base. When I came back, half the buildings were on fire.
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Originally posted by Thorn
Y'know, I play DoW a fair bit too, and I think the thought of it being unbalanced is crap. I play Eldar mostly, and the Fire Prisms are bloody useless against anything but massed units and buildings. A squad of Assault Marines will **** it up.
Would never happen. Ever. Not against a half-decent Eldar Player, anyhow. FP's have the 3rd highest number of hitpoints of any tank in DOW, right behind the Land Raider and Looted Tank. An Assault marine does about 7 DPS (damage per Second) to Vehicle_med Armor types.
The FP's Shuriken cannon, on the flipside (no, not you, Flip) does about 70 DPS to infantry_heavy_med (assault SM armor).
Also, believe it or not, the Fire Prism is roughly equal in cost to a Full ASM squad.
You need a good mix of units with all of the races. Sure, the spam tactics work, but all it takes to defeat a Wartruk rush is a few D-Cannons.
D-Cannons are another issue people have with Eldar, yet even so, the likelyhood you'll have D-Cannons for defense before he starts with Wartrakks is HIGHLY unlikely, unless you try to Fast-tech to them, a very dangerous thing to do.
Seer squads do suprisingly well against vehicles too.
Seer Councils are a joke among DOW players. In the first version, they were unstoppable because the Conceal ability stacked with each member added to the squad, making them practically unkillable. Then, Relic nerfed them and upped the cost.
They are one of the worst units in the game for cost. It takes about 1000 req and 2000 Power to get them fully decked out. This is almost the cost of an Avatar of Khaine AND a Bloodthirster.
They are also no longer unkillable, as the stacking issue was fixed.
The only units that really give me trouble are Defilers. Even worse than Fire Prisms. Its basically a spider walking Leman Russ tank with claws, flame throwers and cannons. It is both an artillery and support/assault vehicle rolled into one scary looking platform. A pair of these bastards can smash most defenses if ignored, and they have the ability to shrug off most infantry. I had a relic literally surrounded by 2 rows of D-Cannons. I looked away for about 10 seconds to assault a base. When I came back, half the buildings were on fire. [/B]
Defilers are admitted to be one of Chaos' most Effective units. They have the second longest Artillery range, a ****ty flamer (it's very pathetic), adequate melee compared to other walkers (though a Dreadnought could take 2 Defilers in HtH), and By far it's most destructive weapon, the Twin Autocannon (it does absolutely amazing DPS, even against infantry).
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That Inquistor mod is pretty kick arse too.
I'm gonna have to d/l these and try them out someday. :)
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the only balanced RTS iv ever played is Total War
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Teleprt a pack of Allault Terminators with Force Commander attached in the middle of enemy Fire Prisms....
Terminators own practicly everything....especiallly with assault cannons...
speaking of which, there is a Space Huld MOD out there too...
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The Total War series are brilliant games don't get me wrong. But even they suffered from balance issues.
Some teams vs others just cannot be beaten. Hands down.
Armenia vs Roman legion is an example at times. If you take a large contingent of Cataphrak archers, you can screw the Romans up real bad.
There are plenty of other better examples too. Some teams only have a handfull of units.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Teleprt a pack of Allault Terminators with Force Commander attached in the middle of enemy Fire Prisms....
Terminators own practicly everything....especiallly with assault cannons...
speaking of which, there is a Space Huld MOD out there too...
Ultra-Late game unit vs. Mid-early game unit.
Not a good counter, and it still wont work. FPs can just jump away, and the Stun affect AT's have vs. vehicles won't stop that.
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Well, Terminators and Assault Terminators are the ultimate infantry unit the Space Marines have, so naturally, they will be in Tier 3.
By the way, patch 1.3 is out.
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I have the game, and I do like it, though I've only played through it once so far. I haven't played multiplayer (not really interested), but some of those mods look really cool. I'm also going to get the expansion - I played Imperial Guard when I used to play the tabletop game, so I'm looking forward to Baneblade and Shadowsword super-heavy tanks. Also the Basilisk and it's variants....
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
I have the game, and I do like it, though I've only played through it once so far. I haven't played multiplayer (not really interested), but some of those mods look really cool. I'm also going to get the expansion - I played Imperial Guard when I used to play the tabletop game, so I'm looking forward to Baneblade and Shadowsword super-heavy tanks. Also the Basilisk and it's variants....
Sorry. There are no Shadowsword tanks for the Imperial Guard in Winter Assault. Only the Baneblade and it is the Tier 3 tank. Requires a captured Relic.
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Oh well. The Baneblade will have to do, then. Not to worry....
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
Oh well. The Baneblade will have to do, then. Not to worry....
The Baneblade is going to have 11 guns in Winter Assault. Who needs the Stormsword?!
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Cheaters and Nerfs?
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Yeah, but I wanted to be able to melt titans' legs off..... :(
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
Yeah, but I wanted to be able to melt titans' legs off..... :(
A few Land Raiders, a few Predators with Lascannon upgrades and a Baneblade should do the job nicely.