Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Dark RevenantX on April 24, 2005, 08:09:15 pm
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I have been planning for a campaign that features you inside Capital Ships. You won't ever be able to get in a destroyer for obvious reasons, nor will you be in a corvette very often (think 2-3 missions of the 20 or so). It isn't very easy to survive in a measly little cruiser next to gargantuan destroyers, so cruisers are what you will be stuck with for almost every mission. You get to use all the terran/vasudan cruisers+corvettes, but not the shivans (even though I really wanted to let you pilot a Rakshasa). The missions will include "destroy convoy", "protect convoy", "form blockade", "run bockade", "destroy ship", "protect ship", "join battle", and some special missions that fall under no category. The storyline starts during the NTF war and ends when Capella goes supernova, but does not exactly follow the retail story. The computer that could run Windows imploded upon itself a while ago, and a replacement will come "soon", so I can not actually make the campaign now.
I know what you are thinking, "It's impossible! Learn the limits of FS2 and SCP, noob!", but I have a response. ITS POSSIBLE! I am fully aware of the hard-coded limits of the game and have worked around it. Using a complex system of SEXPs, I will make it so you can control every aspect of the capital ship you are flying. For example, with five SEXPs used, you can push key X and have your Fenris's main beam unlock fire at your current target until you push key X again, when it will lock and stop firing. This can be done as many times as you would like, so if you target the Cain infront of you, but suddenly change your mind and wish to attack the Lilith to the left of the Cain, you can target the Lilith and push key X twice to target it instead of the Cain. Without this system, all turrets will fire at the enemy automatically. Without this system, your beam would continue firing at the Cain while you scream at the computer to "f*cking fire at the god d*mn Lilith!". The automatic fire can be used to your advantage when dealing with normal turrets. You would push key Y to make the turret fire at your current target, and push key Y again to make it fire at whatever target the AI chooses while you are busy trying to blow up the Lilith. You could also hit key Z to disable your weapons and engines for 30 seconds while your ships repairs its subsystems by 20%. Also, the CTD when you get more than 6 subsystems on your damage display is fixed with WCoolmon's latest builds.
I need your opinions and suggestions before I am sure about weather or not I should do this.
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I have two doubts:
- Is it fun?
- Is it challenging?
Other than that...
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Its challenging when the odds are against you, and fun because you have choices about what to do. One choice will leave you relatively fine, but the others will either impair you or kill you. Example: A convoy of 2 Argos, 3 Elysiums, a Triton, and 2 wings of Hercules is going across your screen. You are in a Fenris with a wing of Myrmidons at your command. The mission objective is to either destroy the convoy or chase the convoy away by making them jump away from the area, but do it before the convoy reaches the jump node. You are given many choices right from the start; you could send your fighters to attack, or have them cover you. You could fire the beam on the Argos, which is better armored, but would save you the trouble of killing them when more enemies arrive. Or, you could fire the beam at the Elysiums, which would be a quick kill, and a kill would disrupt the convoy and give them a likelier chance of bailing out. Either way has its advantages and disadvantages, and because you are in a slower ship than a fighter, you have more time to think about it. What would happen in the mission is that after a convoy ship (non-fighter) is killed, an Aeolus will jump in after a 15 second delay, followed by another wing of Hercules 60 seconds later. Also, if the Elysiums are the last convoy ships left, they will jump out. Since the node is relatively close, you can't afford to take the time to kill every convoy ship. The winning strategy in that case would be first having your fighters go in after their fighters, but not allow the enemy fighters to get out of range of your AAAF beams. During this, you would kill the Argo at the front of the convoy, and work on the second one just behind the first. When the Aeolus comes in at the 45º angle away from the convoy, be sure to order your fighters to disable the rear beam on the back of the Aeolus while you get in behind it. After a while, it will die. If timed right, you will have time to kill the last of the second Argo and the Triton. After the Elysiums jump out, victory is yours!
Have faith in me!
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I think a demonstration is in order. Get FREDing.
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Sounds like a really great idea, but how are you going to handle the HUD? I mean, you COULD have the normal fighter HUD, but it wouldn't be very interesting. Would it be possible to make a custom HUD, so that you could make it look like you're the Captain of the vessel looking out the forward viewport. Also, how are you going to handle looking around, i mean, to handle a Capship you really need to be able to seen in any given direction, like when you switch to the Turret view in Freelancer for example. How are you going to handle these hurdles?
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There is a key that lets you turn your view but not the ship. Anyone is welcome to provide me with a new hud. I can't make it now, my Windows-capable computer is dead.
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This will be interesting. If you can pull it off...
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I think it can be FREDed.
Not only FREDed, but done not too difficulty...
*remembers something Karajoma was explaining recently with strings and the any-of variables.
Hooooly ****. I have an idea. :D
*goes off to plot SexPs!
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Why don't you and Revenant work together? The more Competent FREDders, the better the end product.
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A new hud can be hacked into the code rather easily. Doing something a bit more flexible is something of a pain in the ass, though.
OTOH, custom gauges might still work...so go figure.
The HUD is actually one place where a full scripting language would come in handy. Although it could be done with SEXPs, that would involve making another editor. OTOH you could use it for mod-wide SEXPs.
Edit: One thing I thought about doing was adding in the ability to load HUD data from DLL files. You'd have to have at least some programming knowledge, but it would allow you to make pretty much any type of gauges you wanted.
There really isn't a good, easy way to implement hud gauges. Nothing in life worth doing is ever easy, and all that, I guess.
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WMCoolmon: one minor question for hte hud.
Can we have as many primaries or secondary weapons as we want, without requiring new textures/art for it?
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Yes and no.
The code should support as many primaries as you can stuff in weapons.tbl. The limits come from screen size/clutter (remember, there is 640x480 to think about) and other parts of the code. Most notably the weapons loadout screen.
So I think the limits are 3 primaries, 4 secondaries, but I've never really tested that. It may even be 4 primaries.
But. You can have as many gun mounts as you like. All the new dynamic selection screen art code does stuff dynamically. And as far as I know, the selection screen is the only place where you can't just bump the limits and have things work (at least, it shouldn't be, but there are probably other parts of the code that will break/behave oddly with different numbers).
Edit: Every time I think selection screen, I think or put down "techroom". :p
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hmm....so would it be possible to fly a fenris, and say, be able to use all it's turrets as selectable primary cannons?
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If someone can make a game made completely by squares and triangles then this should be quite possible.
How did Inferno get so good? Easy! The makers followed The Magical Steps of FREDding©
1. Plan The Mission: See what will work best for what you have. Make something that will have a good story, good playability, and good feel; it's like making a movie! In my case, I need a campaign that doesn't judge your hand-eye coordination or dogfighting techniques, but is a test of strategy and planning.
2. Create The Mission: This is the boring part. You FRED it and fix the bugs. No mission flow in this section.
3. Make The Mission Fun: This is the fun part. You shape the mission into something that is enjoyable. Instead of having the player shoot the beam at the cargo box and then jump out, have the player shoot at the Arcadia while repelling waves of fighters and eliminating the pesky cruiser from behind you.
4. Fine Tune The Mission: Add all those little nips and bits here and there to make the mission perfect. Only stop when you are truly satisfied with the mission after many playtests that don't include you!
And last but certainly not least, the most commonly forgotten:
5. Back The Mission Up: Imagine this. You are finally done with the campaign. All 25 long and hard missions are over! You had to sweat blood to get this thing done! You are just about to post the missions on the internet. You are right about to click "upload"... CLANK!!!!ZCLICK!CLANK!!!!ZZBUZZA!!!CLANK!!!! Customer Service"Sorry, dude, your hard drive crashed! Under warrenty? Here, we will send you a new blank drive." Bummer, man! All that work for nothing. MOST IMPORTANT RULE WHEN MAKING A CAMPAIGN: BACK UP THE MISSIONS TO A CD! You never know what will happen! No, this is not reinstalling SCP, this is TAKING YOUR HARD DRIVE OUT OF YOUR COMPUTER AND TOSSING IT IN THE TRASH CAN! Don't let fate get the best of you!
Also, Inferno was not made alone. Others helped. A campaign seldom becomes great when one poor soul tries to make it all by himself. This is why this thread was posted! I need IDEAS! I'm not that little kid whom could somehow make little papers look like starships in his imagination. I'm some wannabe pro trying to make a campaign!
Holy sh*t! Multiple posts while I write this!
Edit: Singh, that would be awkward. To scroll down the primaries list to get to the beam cannon you want would be too slow for my taste. Also, it would be impossible to fire all, say, Laser Cannons at one target.
Edit MK II: Singh, if you work with me, two things will be needed. 1. You wait until I can get a windows, and 2. I will do the turret firing mechanism by myself. I don't trust many people with it because it has been done by many people in a way I think is either awkward or stupid. Also, I think you will have questionable sanity if you work with someone who is just around the corner to turning 13.
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if you did that with 3 or four gun banks and had them all locked in position to point forward, and edited the POF to have gun mounts where the turret guns had been...then yes.
But the code for turret weapons is pretty much completely different from that of primary weapons. Each turret uses the same data structure to store weapon information as the main ship (now), but that's about all the similarities there are.
If you wanted to allow customized turret loadouts...hmm. It'd be possible with an extra state and the new (lab) GUI stuff. It'd also give me an excuse to map out elements of the selection screens using the new GUI. This would also come in handy if/when phreak implements tertiary weapons.
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WMCoolmon, you would have to impliment it into one of YOUR builds, as yours seems to be the only ones that can handle a bunch of subsystems on the screen. Though, if any others have done the same thing you have with fixing the subsystem damage CTD when you have more than 7 subsystems, those builds could be used too.
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If I implement it, of course it'll be in one of my builds. :p
The non-crashing should be in all future builds now, maybe even the last one Goober posted.
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hmm...
another set of questions: can the player have control of ship turrets at all? If hte primary beam turret can be changed to a mount, facing forwards, can the anti-fighter cannons be a different mount facing a different direction?
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If by 'control', you mean so that the player can turn and fire turrets, yes. I don't know how hard that'd be, though. You'd need to: (Edit: By you, I mean whoever chooses to implement it - if anyone :p)
- Disable AI control of turrets (easy)
- Add some way of switching to turrets, I was thinking 0-9 keys could activate the first ten turrets of a ship. (Medium/Hard)
- When a turret is switched to, force the view to first-person from turret (Medium)
- Turn off all gauges except for the recticule and weapons gauge and targetting computer and lock-on recticule (Medium)
- Switch control of the ship to the AI(?) (Easy)
- Map the arrow keys to move the turret (Medium/Hard)
- Map the weapon keys to take efect for the turret (Medium/Hard)
That'd work for projectile-style weapons and missile weapons. I'm not sure how well it'd work for beam weapons, although we'd need to implement some sort of accuracy control, or else the player could easily pick off fighters with a BGreen or such.
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The reason that would not work is because the weapons you fire are very slow. You can't possibly hit a fighter with a standard laser cannon. Even then, AAA beams would be hard to use. It would be impossible to get slash beams. Besides, would the Fenris pilot control every weapon system's firing at the same time? no! However, the captain would be able to order attacks and systems around. So, in a sense, you will be able to control every turret.
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Are you suggesting some ability to control the targets your turrets shoot without controlling them directly? Is that possible under FS2?
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Sounds interesting, make a test mission for proof-of-concept.
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It is very possible indeed.
A five SEXP set for one turret group.
Example for controlling a Leviathan's SGreen:
First make sure that the Leviathan's beam is locked.
Also, make the following Variables: (name/type/starting value)
- [istargettingsgreen] integer - 0
- [targetsgreen] string - (none)
- [canfiresgreen] integer - 1
- [delaysgreen] integer - 0
Event 1. Fire button is pressed - Activate when {key to fire the beam} is pressed while [istargettingsgreen] is at 0. Key Reset and set [targetsgreen] to the current target of the player. Set [istargettingsgreen] to 1. Message to player "Targetting with small beam cannon".
Event 2. Fire button is pressed again - Activate when {key to fire the beam} is pressed while [istargettingsgreen] is at 1. Key Reset and set [istargettingsgreen] to 0. Message to player "Small beam cannon deactivated".
Event 3. Fire at target - Activate when [istargettingsgreen] is at 1 while [canfiresgreen] is at 1. Set [canfiresgreen] to 0 and fire the turret that has the sgreen at [targetsgreen].
Event 4. Firing delay - Activate when [delaysgreen] is at 0 while [canfiresgreen] is at 0. Set [delaysgreen] to 1. Wait for 45 (delay of the sgreen) seconds. Set [delaysgreen] to 0 and set [canfiresgreen] to 1.
Event 5. Target destroyed - Activate when [targetsgreen] is destroyed. Set [istargettingsgreen] to 0. Message to player "Small beam cannon target terminated - deactivating small beam cannon".
This would make it so that when you hit a key, the beam will automatically fire at your current target, and keep firing at that target until it is destroyed, or when you deactivate it. When you want to quickly switch targets, you need to double-tap the key (but not too quickly!).
Obviously, turrets and AAA beams would be treated differently. They would be taken usually in groups, sizes depending on how many the ship has. Also, turrets would be unlocked when not set to target anything in particular; their AI would make them shoot at random things automatically.
You see, it is possible, Pnakotus.
I wish I could ATM. As soon as I get a new Windows OS machine, I will whip out a test mission for you guys.
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I really like his approach - its closer to what a captain would do.
IMHO the ultimate SCP support for this (and other high ranking positions) would be the ability to assign different targets for your forces.
These new add Ai-goal fuctions could be:
Assign Primary target (85% priority), previous target(s) goes into Sec.
Assign Secondary target (65% priority), previous target(s) goes into Ter.
Assign Tertiary target (45% priority) previous target flushed.
Add Primary target (85% priority), old target(s) kept
Add Secondary target (65% priority), old target(s) kept
Add Tertiary target (45% priority), old target(s) kept
Flush Primary target list
Flush Secondary target list
Flush Tertiary target list
Disregard Secondary targets (only targets above 65% are attacked)
Disregard Teriary targets (only targets above 45% are attacked)
Disengage (the ship only attacks its own attackers, and tries to pull away (may be hard to implement)
Assign to Squad
Assign Squad formation
Beside these "command" sexps IMHO the ability to assign orders to your own turrets in the same manner as how you handle your wingman could good.
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The weapon-related things would make it too easy. All the work on the start and the rest is basically a show. The others are simply too damn hard! Besides, you can control your fighters with the built-in menu in-game.
I am making it in such a way that you must keep your side's fighters alive. Just one wing could be the balance between victory and defeat! Just a forewarning.
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This could possibly the one time BoE type Missions could actually work! I mean, who here wouldn't want to be in a Fenris cruiser, sliding through the middle of a BoE style Cap Fest, protecting the larger ships in your fleet from bombers, and taking pot shots at 'Vettes and Destroyers! Of course, it'd have to be very well made, but i would just love to be in a Cap ship leading a Flotilla of craft into a massive battle situation...
...only to be destroyed thirteen seconds later by an errant Helios...
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for the primary weapon, i think it should be the main beam cannon that you can fire yourself.
maybe i can make a bridge for the cap ships?
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Precisely. You're piloting a huge ship that is extremely vulnerable to errant weapons fire. One well-laid bomb or beam and you're out half your turrets, engines, and nav, or you're toast completely. If you're the biggest ship around, then there may be some argument, but ultimately I think FS is the wrong game to put you in control of a capital ship.
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the whole point is coordinating your fighters when you're in a capship. that way you won't get hit with bombs as much.
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How are your pilots going to cover you from a beam barrage though? Nevermind that the AI's defending ability is absolute garbage, and I wouldn't put my faith in their stoping a bomb any day.
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...Make the AI better :p
And remember: you have AAAf Beams and (maybe) Flak. If those arent good for bomb interception, I don't know what is (besides Alpha 1).
As for beams: Move out of the path. IIRC, they won't follow your ship once they've fired.
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You can put yourself out of commision for 30 seconds to repair your vital subsystems, or 45 seconds to repair your vital turrets.
The lowdown: Sorry, you aren't going to get in anything equal to or larger than a Destroyer. I'm skeptical of even letting you pilot a Corvette!
You need to be just as afraid of being blown up by a beam in a capship as you are in a fighter, so I will make it in a way that has a huge danger. There will only be a couple BoE missions, as they are so freaking hard to get right. Don't even try to live through a BoE mission in a Fenris; you will only get one after you are sent to an Aeolus (which is the most powerful GTVA Cruiser, but still falls behind the Rakshasa and Lilith).
Also, the problem with firing the beams manually is that you have no idea when it is active again. Also, it would be awkward in the case of the Aeolus and its 3 sgreens, 2 in the front and 1 in the back. If you wanted to fire them all, you would have to select the first, fire it, select the second, fire it, select the third, turn freecamera on, turn the camera around so that you see behind you, fire it, and turn freecamera off. Or, you could just target the ships you want to fire at, push a few keys, then be happy until you wish to change targets. In a cruiser, a stray Helios could severely compromise you. I doubt that it would kill you if you have enough health, as you are in a capital ship.
The main reason for the manual fire not to work is the weapons subsystem. You are supposed to lose accuracy when your weapons subsystem is hurt. You can't lose accuracy if you are firing the beam!
As for the BoE missions, it is not only hard form good gameplay, it also is hard to make the battle last. Beams are really, really powerful. How long will a ship last to eight beams at the same time?
Anyone is welcome to try to make it while I try to get a computer. You need 2 things: FS2 SCP and time.
EDIT: I hate it when people post while I type! You can order your fighters to blow up the beam turret of an enemy ship if the beams are giving you a problem.
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Here's a solution to crappy AI not doing anything to protect you from bombs; someone could program "Alpha 1 AI", sort of a golden breed of AI, all packed into a Golden Perseus (or what have you), and we're talking AI that will avoid collisions, make their shots accurate, knows it's playing FreeSpace 2, and at every chance, try to break out of your computer through your internet connection and take over the world Skynet Style...
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:lol: nice. :yes:
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I think this is a ****ing amazing idea. I had no idea SEXPs were so flexible: using the logic he described, you could concievably set up groups of weapons to be prioritied to different threats, defence, etc. The 'roll' function will also mean player caps are infinitely better than AI ones, since we'll all roll the whole time, using all of our big beals.
Dark Revenant is now my hero. I wonder if his work can be used to improve the capship AI generally?
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one problemt hough: The ai is NOT going to fire the anti-cap beams anything other than the nearest target. Such is it's limitation, but i could probably be 'cheated' by using fire-beam.
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
Also, the problem with firing the beams manually is that you have no idea when it is active again. Also, it would be awkward in the case of the Aeolus and its 3 sgreens, 2 in the front and 1 in the back. If you wanted to fire them all, you would have to select the first, fire it, select the second, fire it, select the third, turn freecamera on, turn the camera around so that you see behind you, fire it, and turn freecamera off. Or, you could just target the ships you want to fire at, push a few keys, then be happy until you wish to change targets. In a cruiser, a stray Helios could severely compromise you. I doubt that it would kill you if you have enough health, as you are in a capital ship.
The main reason for the manual fire not to work is the weapons subsystem. You are supposed to lose accuracy when your weapons subsystem is hurt. You can't lose accuracy if you are firing the beam!
Actually, a training message can be used, triggered every 35 seconds after the beam is fired or the button is reset.
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The problem with lack of defending is that the engagement radius for fighters escorting cruiser and corvette-sized ships is too small. From the AI's behavior, I have managed to deduce that, given escort orders, the radius within which a fighter will engage hostile craft is dependant on either the type or the size of the craft being escorted, probably the former.
When defending a destroyer, fighters will engage anything that comes within three or four kilometers. This is good. Hostile bombers are intercepted well before they can launch their first salvo of bombs.
When defending a corvette, they engage at two or two and a half kilometers. Hostile bombers are normally intercepted before they launch their first bomb salvo, but not by much; and sometimes they get the bombs off before being jumped.
When defending a cruiser, escorts engage at one or one point five kilometers. Hostile bombers will either be jumped right as they launch, or launch before being intercepted.
And finally, the unkindest cut of all, the one that prompted me to take a look at this and see how escorts behaved: escorting an Argo transport, I have seen, repeatedly, a wing of Myrmidons launch Hornet missiles at the transport before the escort wing even moves to intercept them. It was during a mission from Derelict, whose name I have forgotten at the moment. To get any useful behavior out of my wingmen I had to order them to escort the transport, then once the enemy wing entered, order them to engage the enemy so they would attack on their own hook.
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It is easier to command fighters than you think. All you do is select the bomb flying toward you and make them destroy your target. Shooting all flak guns and AAA beams at it helps too.
Also, in the intrest of ship health, I could make beams become highly inaccurate. Instead of being blown to bits from eight beams, you will be crippled from two beams, while laughing at the six other beams that missed you.
I learned how to make SEXPs with such flexability from my workings in Wc3's World Editor. I pushed that thing to its limits; and it had multiple times as much of actions, events, conditions, functions, and statements than what you have when making SEXPs.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
The problem with lack of defending is that the engagement radius for fighters escorting cruiser and corvette-sized ships is too small. From the AI's behavior, I have managed to deduce that, given escort orders, the radius within which a fighter will engage hostile craft is dependant on either the type or the size of the craft being escorted, probably the former.
When defending a destroyer, fighters will engage anything that comes within three or four kilometers. This is good. Hostile bombers are intercepted well before they can launch their first salvo of bombs.
When defending a corvette, they engage at two or two and a half kilometers. Hostile bombers are normally intercepted before they launch their first bomb salvo, but not by much; and sometimes they get the bombs off before being jumped.
When defending a cruiser, escorts engage at one or one point five kilometers. Hostile bombers will either be jumped right as they launch, or launch before being intercepted.
And finally, the unkindest cut of all, the one that prompted me to take a look at this and see how escorts behaved: escorting an Argo transport, I have seen, repeatedly, a wing of Myrmidons launch Hornet missiles at the transport before the escort wing even moves to intercept them. It was during a mission from Derelict, whose name I have forgotten at the moment. To get any useful behavior out of my wingmen I had to order them to escort the transport, then once the enemy wing entered, order them to engage the enemy so they would attack on their own hook.
Interestingly, if you look at the engage distance for the cruiser and corvette, that's roughly within the range of AAAf beams, which sort of corresponds with the players orders to draw escorts away from the NTC Majestic and Refute in the mission where you trap the NTD Repulse.
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
It is easier to command fighters than you think. All you do is select the bomb flying toward you and make them destroy your target. Shooting all flak guns and AAA beams at it helps too.
Also, in the intrest of ship health, I could make beams become highly inaccurate. Instead of being blown to bits from eight beams, you will be crippled from two beams, while laughing at the six other beams that missed you.
I learned how to make SEXPs with such flexability from my workings in Wc3's World Editor. I pushed that thing to its limits; and it had multiple times as much of actions, events, conditions, functions, and statements than what you have when making SEXPs.
Really? What custom games did you make?
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
The weapon-related things would make it too easy. All the work on the start and the rest is basically a show. The others are simply too damn hard! Besides, you can control your fighters with the built-in menu in-game.
I am making it in such a way that you must keep your side's fighters alive. Just one wing could be the balance between victory and defeat! Just a forewarning.
I meant these as SCP additions to make your life easier (new sexp/interface options).
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Oh, I see.
Also, I made some custom games, but they often were drowned out by DotA at the time.
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(http://www.niele.de/relax/californien/bump.jpg)
We need more posts!
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does this post count? :D
what games did you make and what's DOTA?
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Dota is worse than gay porn, but more popular than it.
And, I made some games, non of which you would know. My bnet name was very similar to my board name.
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bah. make the capship campaign! we all (well, some of us) want it!
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I still cant! If someone could make me a mac sexp-writer program I'd do it!
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you don't happen to mean Dawn of the Apocalypse, do you? :p :shaking:
*finds a happy place*
Well anyway, if you're interested, i can hook you up with some webhosting...
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No. Dota is Defense of the Ancients.
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oh ok... Thats better then :p
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
I still cant! If someone could make me a mac sexp-writer program I'd do it!
ask kazan or WMCoolmon. :D
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You do realise that the chances of either of them to actually take the bother to convert the event editor to the mac is four to the five million, five hundred and fiftey-six thousand, one hundred and nintey-ninth power to one against.
There's always a chance, though.
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So, what you're saying is; there's more chance of every single atom that makes up the Planet Earth spontainiously ceasing to exist at the exact same moment in time and space than there is of kazan or WMCoolmon having converted the Event Editor to Mac...
...wow...that's a pretty damn small chance...!
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i think ye've got it.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,32374.0.html
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its not a conversion of the editor, but it certainly beats text editing without it!
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Oh... sh!t... This is going to take an impossible amount of time unless I can do it as quickly as the event manager lets me do it...