Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The FRED Workshop => Topic started by: DaBrain on April 26, 2005, 11:40:19 am
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Oh, it's been a while since I posted here...
Well, I had an idea for a mission that might make multiplayer more attractive.
Too bad I suck at FREDing and don't have to time to learn it right now...
Perhaps one of you picks it up. I will support you with any graphical stuff you may need. ;)
I am not even sure whether this is posible in FRED. I just though it should be.
(http://img2.echo.cx/img2/5769/tw6xe.jpg)
Each team has a base. An Arcadia, a cruiser and some defense platforms.
Now each player gets 'money' every 5-10 minutes so he can buy stuff. Buy means have ships warp in or change the player ship. (This will probably require to bind keys...) (The ship change works for sure... ;) )
It should be possible to 'buy' capships. You could control them with some basic orders (like in the main campaign).
The goal is to destroy the enemy base. (Of course ;) )
Using your units to defend your base and plan attack in a team could be really fun. :)
I think the 'money' might be a problem. If it's not possible, just use the kill count as 'money'. :)
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Hehe, CptWhite and I had a conversation about this a couple years back as an idea for TBP multiplayer of all things.
The main difference was that "resources" (RTS, anyone?) were being delievered by freighters to each team's Orion station. The more resources each team accumulated the bigger a ship they could produce. One freighter, for instance, might equal an Olympus, while several could build a Warlock. A team could choose when they wanted to devote their standing resources to production anytime they wished. Doing it earlier than the other team meant getting an edge in firepower that much sooner, but if the other team was able to destroy the ship then they would obviously have an advantage in resources in the end. Resources could also be devoted to building base defenses in the form of GOD sats and such. And, of course, each team could prey on each other's resources to rob the other of production capability and compromise their offensive and defensive elements. Each team's Orion acted as that team's home base and factory for building more ships and fighters as resources came in.
Eventually we both decided "no."
;)
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Hmm that's sounds even more complex than what I had in mind. ;)
It's a great idea. I don't see any reason to toss it...
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I love the idea. :yes:
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money = variable
Make a key for showing the money on the screen with a training message.
Make a key for putting yourself in buy mode, then if it is pushed again, you are out of buy mode.
In buy mode, you should be able to push a whole bunch of keys, which are shown on screen in a message with the key, what it buys, and the cost; also using the training message thing.
I suggest making the prices similar to the kill values, only more pricey.
Also, edit the tables so that you have a light, normal, and heavy variant of each fighter/bomber. The light variant has less powerful weaponry than the normal, and the heavy with more powerful weaponry than the normal. The normal variant is the stock ship.
Also, everyone should start with an ultra-light Ulysses. Means: Ulysses with slightly compromised health/shields and the weakest weapons. No secondary weapon for this. This encourages the players to at least get the light version that has the full heath and a secondary weapon.
SUGGESTIONS:
When a fighter is killed give 1 money.
When a bomber is killed give 2 money.
When a non-fighting ship (transport, AWACS, ect) is killed give 5 money.
When an Arcadia is killed give 25 money, and a Ganeymede 20.
Cruisers; Fenris = 6, Leviathan = 10, Aeolus = 15, Aten = 5, Mentu = 9, Cain = 10, Rakshasa = 15, Lilith = 20.
Corvettes; Deimos = 40, Sobek = 35, Moloch = 30.
Destroyers; Hecate = 70, Orion = 80, Typhon = 65, Hatshepsut = 75, Demon = 85, Ravana = 90.
Anything higher is overkill.
Bases are very powerful, like the HP of a supercap.
Also, for every kill you make, you get a special form of money called "personal money" that lets you buy craft for yourself. You get 1 for fighters/bombers, 2 for nonfighters, 5 for stations, 4 for cruisers, 8 for corvettes, and 15 for destroyers. Depending on the strength of the craft you wish to get, you need to pay money for it. Terran/Vasudan fighters are generally 3-10 money, while bombers are 6-20. Shivan fighters are 5-15 money, and bombers 10-30. Everything Shivan is more expensive.
If I was to do anything after my Capship campaign, THIS WOULD BE IT!
Edit: Perhaps the cost for going to a new ship should be reduced by half the price you paid for the ship you have. IE, if you are in a light herc (say 5 money) and want a heavy herc (8 money), you will pay 5 credits for the heavy version. Also, if you die, degrade your ship. IE if you die while in a heavy Herc, you are respawned in a normal Herc. Mabey if you cant get degraded you should lose a couple credits.
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I suggested some changes to mp ages ago: isn't the multiplayer code a bit esoteric? Or can these suggestions be done in SEXPs?
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This is very simple to do in SEXP. You just have to do it right. It is no harder than my capship campaign SEXP thing.
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Well, lets be honest, your capship idea is the best **** ever. We can't ALL do things like that! :)
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I like both ideas...the Capship Commander one, and the C&C: Renegade style of multiplayer too...
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Hmmm... well, it's not impossible, but I think you might have difficulties.
Number 1 - the openess of FS missions. We don;t have super dense asteroid fields or localized nebulae or any real kind of mission scenery. Finding the opposition would be all too easy. I mean, think about it. Say you buy an Orion. If you want to attack the opposition's base, it's going to take the Orion ages to get to within firing range, during which, the opposition can see you and launch its counterattck. Moreover, there's no element of stealth. If you've got 3 cruisers and two destroyers, the opposition can see that and get exactly he same armaments.
2 - What happens if all the human players get killed? I mean, you can't really have infinite respawns, or the game is too easy (Especially since human players are so much more dangerous than AI players, and faster than caps. Infinite respawns would mean Player X would be able to attack your transient Orion over and over again with no thought to his own safety). In a proper RTS, the controller is unassailable, but here that'd be impossible, more or less.
3 - the Buy system. I can't think of any way to effectively do this without binding dozens of keys, and filling up your sexp nodes way too fast.
These are, as far as I can see, the three main problems. Solve 'em, and you're well on your way to getting this working... but I think it might be quite a challenge.
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Yeah, back in the day I imagined a multi system with 'off map' assets for each team, that were deployed into the battle area by whoever's in charge. I'm pretty sure that could be done with SEXPs, too, come to think of it.
Not sure how you'd do the interface: one player per team would probably stare at a spreadsheet all game, jumping in reinforcements, buying ammunition, refitting fighters etc.
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Number 1 - the openess of FS missions. We don;t have super dense asteroid fields or localized nebulae or any real kind of mission scenery. Finding the opposition would be all too easy. I mean, think about it. Say you buy an Orion. If you want to attack the opposition's base, it's going to take the Orion ages to get to within firing range, during which, the opposition can see you and launch its counterattck. Moreover, there's no element of stealth. If you've got 3 cruisers and two destroyers, the opposition can see that and get exactly he same armaments.
A nebula with a couple kilometers worth of sensor range. Problem fixed. Just make your capship go off to the side of their base, then attack from an unexpected direction before they even know that you are attacking. If they happen to scout out for you, send fighters up onto the front (facing your bace).
2 - What happens if all the human players get killed? I mean, you can't really have infinite respawns, or the game is too easy (Especially since human players are so much more dangerous than AI players, and faster than caps. Infinite respawns would mean Player X would be able to attack your transient Orion over and over again with no thought to his own safety). In a proper RTS, the controller is unassailable, but here that'd be impossible, more or less.
The lives SHOULD vary upon the credit assignment. If you start with 0 credits and get one every 30 seconds, then the lives should be limited to enough to count on one hand. Starting with 15 credits and getting two every 30 seconds would have the lives be enough to count on two hands. Starting with a flagship (Hades/Colossus/Lucifer/Sathanas) and 50 credits would require 15+ lives.
3 - the Buy system. I can't think of any way to effectively do this without binding dozens of keys, and filling up your sexp nodes way too fast.
I discussed this earlier. What should happen is there is a key that puts you into "buy mode". Buy mode is where a large training message is placed on your screen, and is re-sent after the first would disappear. This message would include all the ships available to buy for the team, their costs, and the key you need to press to get it (if you can). When you are done, you push the buymode key again to turn buy mode off. You can only buy ships in buy mode, so if you accidentally push a ship buying key while fighting, you won't buy it. Another buy mode should be added, too, that lets you spend your personal money on a fighter/bomber for yourself.
Well, now can we get the show on the road, Dabrain?
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
A nebula with a couple kilometers worth of sensor range. Problem fixed. Just make your capship go off to the side of their base, then attack from an unexpected direction before they even know that you are attacking. If they happen to scout out for you, send fighters up onto the front (facing your bace).
How? You can't send any ship to an arbitrary point using in mission commands, and you can't even have capships follow or guard one of the players since their class makes this impossible (Check in FRED - all they can do is attack and depart).
NB - I'm not exactly trying to pour cold water all over your idea - just pointing out where the difficulties are going to show up so you can possibly try to correct them.
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You'd have better luck (not to mention ease of use) at a Zanzibar-style mission...this is almost impossible in the Real-time environment of FS multi :P
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Zansibar???
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
2 - What happens if all the human players get killed? I mean, you can't really have infinite respawns, or the game is too easy (Especially since human players are so much more dangerous than AI players, and faster than caps. Infinite respawns would mean Player X would be able to attack your transient Orion over and over again with no thought to his own safety). In a proper RTS, the controller is unassailable, but here that'd be impossible, more or less.
I think it's more fun to have infinte respawns. Just think about it. Your ships is not that important, the base is.
There should be something like a short wating period before respawning though, to give the attacking team an advantage. ;)
Another possibility is that you respawn a few miles away from your base and it takes 20-30 sec to reach it.
I like the freigter idea a lot too, but I think it might make things too complex. Well, perhaps it's even more fun though... ;)
@Dark RevenantX
Wow, your buy system idea is impressive.
Originally posted by Black Wolf
How? You can't send any ship to an arbitrary point using in mission commands, and you can't even have capships follow or guard one of the players since their class makes this impossible (Check in FRED - all they can do is attack and depart).
NB - I'm not exactly trying to pour cold water all over your idea - just pointing out where the difficulties are going to show up so you can possibly try to correct them.
Yeah, true. But you could add some 'hostile' nodes which could be used to command to the capships to attack them. They will fly those targets. ;)
You could probably go the more complex way and use something like the suggested buy menu and trigger commands to capships.
Just use a few possible 'navpoints'. I think we saw capships flying somewhere by scripted events in the main campaign often enough.
Anyway, this turned out to be harder than I thought... I'm jus sorry I can't FRED. :(
I hope one of you will go for this. I'm going to support you with everything I can do.
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After my capship test mission is complete (when I get a windows comp), I will definitely work on this. Since it is smaller than a whole campaign, I guess I could go out of my way to do this.
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Hehe, I got a bit free time again...
I should really study now. :doubt:
(http://img2.echo.cx/img2/5769/tw6xe.jpg)
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This was supposed to be successful... (http://www.sectorgame.com/FSCZ) Very similar to what you have now, except more complex. People started disappearing, so (we) the management gave pretty much gave up...
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I think a far more simple (but still complex) concept will be more attactive for gamers.
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It might be worth taking a look at Natural Selection. A half-life mod.
I play it frequently. :D
http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/
Its a cross between an RTS and FPS. Quite fun in my opinion.
Perhaps some of the concepts would be of use?
To get this working really well, I think a coder and a custom build would be required though. Either that, or a hell of a SEXper. :)
Sounds good though. :yes:
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Well, a tactical map would be pretty useful... I'm sure some coders might think about it, if people like this kind of multiplayer mode.
(Well, it's arleady possible to use models as icons... so it might be possible, right?)
I like Axem's idea. I hope you took a look at it on the SF board.
We will need more FREDers for this of course.
Dark RevenantX, you sound pretty confident in creating this multiplayer stuff... Would you like to FRED for Shadows of Lylat?
Not just now as this multiplayer stuff has low priority for us ATM. But perhaps in a few months.
I addition I think even during the creation of this mission for FS2, a small number of testers is needed...
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I can't do three things at once! I already was going to make my capship campaign and work on this, but working on another project is simply too much! When I'm done with my capships then I will be interested.
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hey...what's this capship campaign i havent heard about yet?
anyhow....team-wars idea sounds fun :)
i wonder if similar things are available for IWAR and such...
sure wish we had big-budget spacesims in the pipeline these days...it'd be cool to have some of that "mod-craze" goodness built in (i havent messed with IWAR's POG scripting...but it actually seems versatile from what i've heard)
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*Bump*
So... anyone interested now?
I just don't want this to be forgotten. ;)
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Bumped just when I was thinking of ideas for multiplayer missions :D I wonder if that was a coincidence :)
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still havent been filled in on that capship campaign :-P
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Originally posted by karajorma
Bumped just when I was thinking of ideas for multiplayer missions :D I wonder if that was a coincidence :)
Hehe, who knows... perhaps that means you should give it a shot.
Or I should learn FREDing, but my mod members will fry me if I don't complete some stuff I'm working on soon. (Including MindGames I guess :shaking: )