Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Dark RevenantX on May 11, 2005, 07:00:34 pm
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As we should all know, Terran Command is the most looney and retarded group of buttheads this universe has ever had the unfortune to know. Now it is time to reflect; what is the worst mistake Terran Command has ever done?
This is the ultimate question of Freespace! CAST YOUR OPINION TODAY!
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Waking up in the morning?
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Waiting 15 seconds to tell Alpha 1 about the supernova.
Not getting some Bosch Beer off the Iceni when they had the chance.
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not letting us blow up the Iceni.
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Being born.
*buh-dum-TIS*
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Not listening to Kappa 3.
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They should have blown up the knossos when they had enough information to know how to rebuild one.
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Not mass-producing Mjolnirs.
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Having a poor need-to-know basis.
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They should have had a Meson-equipped Orion standing by to collapse the Capella-Gamma Draconis node during the operation to destroy the Knossos. It's called covering all your bases. After all, they weren't entirely sure the Knossos could be destroyed in the first place.
Their plans seemed to be as follows:
Plan A: Destroy the Knossos
Plan B: Deploy the Colossus
Plan C: Collapse the Capella nodes (this plan wasn't formulated until much later)
They should have planned like this:
Plan A: Destroy the Knossos
Plan B: Collapse the Gamma Draconis node (after all, it's a worthless system)
Plan C: Deploy the Colossus
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Picking a fight with the Vasudans?
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i think they were the ones who started it.
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They were.
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"Oh shivans, oh well, lets explore their nebula and probably generaly upset them!"
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not giving alpha 1 command of the fleet
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Hmm... probably failure to recognize the extent of the Shivan threat until too late. Arrogance.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Arrogance.
Exactly. They underestimate every single enemy the GTVA stumbles upon...:rolleyes:
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Compared to command, Anakin has no self-asteem...
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They had the Tarkin complex. They didn't think realistically like that other guy that knew the rebels were a significant threat. Plus, they didn't learn from history.
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Giving the wrong coordinates and made me jump 1 or 2 click to far from the Iceni
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Originally posted by Fragrag
Giving the wrong coordinates and made me jump 1 or 2 click to far from the Iceni
Except that wasn't a mistake; that was intentional.
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well
the mission where they were blowing up the knossos .. they should waited for the jug THEN hit the mines
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The knossos has as much hp as a sathanas. If three mesons are enough to blow a knossos then it's enough for a sathanas.
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Disbanding the GTI. Notice how everything went down hill after the Hades Rebellion=P
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Commands worst mistake... Hmmm... Lets try this for starters!
Putting all their faith in one super capital ship that suffered from a horrifically large surface area to turret ratio and very poor design, resulting in it's becoming the greatest scientific failure of it's time.
Oh, and not collapsing the Capella-Gamma Draconis Jump Node after the First Shivan Sathanas was destroyed.
Those two were such big blunders they have me in gridlock to decide which was the bigger blunder.
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Command's biggest blunder was deploying the C with no support other than a few bombers. They should have had 5 destroyers flank the first Sath and blew it away before anybody knew what happened.
I'm of the opinion that the whole "rebellion" was a head game played by Bosch and Fleet Command to stimulate the Terran economy.
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the colossus sucks
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That's the best theory I've ever heard.
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Originally posted by Liberator
They should have had 5 destroyers flank the first Sath and blew it away before anybody knew what happened.
no, what they should have done is sent in 20 bomber wings and blown it up in no time flat.
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Amen to that, Carl. I know that the real physical reason this occurs is due to gameplay/resource considerations, but why is it that we never see more than two or three wings of bombers anywhere at one time? The most ridiculous example would definitely be in High Noon, followed closely by Bearbaiting. In either case, you've got a ship capable of destroying your entire civilization, and you send one capital ship and a few fighter wings after it? Come on! If we're looking outside the realm of actual gameplay, Command should have sent practically every fighter and bomber available, armed with the entire ordnance of their respective destroyers. I'm talking dozens of bombers, all outfitted with Helioses. As for capital ships, besides the big C, throw at least three or four Orions and a few Hecates, plus a dozen or so Deimos corvettes. And what about the Mjolnirs? Why weren't they deployed even once against the Sathanes? If you had surrounded that Gamma Draconis-Capella node with a few dozen of those babies, plus the aforementioned force, the GTVA would have had nothing to worry about.
The way I see it, if they had played their cards right, the GTVA could have handled the entire fleet of 80+ Sathanes heading from Gamma Draconis to Capella. Just put all of your fighter and bomber resources (plus some cruisers and corvettes and the odd destroyer) on the Gamma Draconis side of the node and repeat Bearbaiting ad nauseam. Then, as the Sathanes move into Capella, open up with a display of firepower that makes the Battle of Endor look puny. Just keep doing that until either the Shivans let up or you can get a destroyer loaded out with Mesons to the front lines; seal up the Capella-Gamma Draconis node, and you're home free. But no, Command's arrogance and stupidity lead to the loss of thousands of lives and an entire inhabited system. Oh wel, at least the gameplay works out better for us in the end. :p
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Mongoose, you're forgetting that the Sathanas itself most likely has a fighter/bomber complement at least equal to the Colossus. That would be, what 240?
The GTVA could have never taken down 80+ SJs, and just for the record, even just 80x240 would make 19200 fighters and bombers. You think those pathetical Mjolnir RBCs could handle that? Let alone the Colossus?
And who says they would come out one by one from the Gamma Draconis node? Even if they would, eventually (if the GTVA could even muster a battlegroup strong enough to counter Juggernauts head on at that point) GTVA's forces would be depleted.
Their biggest mistake? Command should have saved the Knossos, I guess.
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Except of course, in that situation, the shivans are also free to deploy lots and lots of bombers. Given the whole 'masters of subspace' thing they've got going, I'd expect most or all Shivan fighters are intersystem jump capable. You get the shivans dumping four or five Satanii worth of fighters/bombers through the jump node at once, let alone eighty, the GTVA is in big trouble.
Anyway, some more of commands greatest mistakes:
Not turning off the friggin safeties on those Helioses. What the heck do I need a lock for anyway?
Not bothering to translate "Then you FIRE your Helios torpedos at the Sathanas's main guns" into vasudan, thus ensuring I had to do it all myself.
Every prometheus-R ever made.
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Actually, it seems that jump nodes are 'one way', so to speak - you have to enter/exit along a single vector (line) to the other jump node you're going to/from. Put up a wall of Mjolnirs 'behind' where the Sathanas would exit, and the Sathanas would be hard pressed to turn fast enough, assuming there was a capital ship/fighter/bomber escort.
The biggest problem would be anti-fighter defenses. Those are particularly effective at taking out stationary defense platforms.
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Letting Bosch escape...or was it? :nervous:
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Not listening to Kappa 3.
:nod: Face it, if they had listened and shut down or destroyed the portal when Kappa 3 told them to none of this mess would have happend.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
I know that the real physical reason this occurs is due to gameplay/resource considerations, but why is it that we never see more than two or three wings of bombers anywhere at one time?
That's one of the oldest items on my wishlist for FS3. Having an engine with the ability to handle all the fighters and bombers that ought to be deployed by a typical GTVA battle group when taking on something like a juggernaut.
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Originally posted by Gai Daigoji
:nod: Face it, if they had listened and shut down or destroyed the portal when Kappa 3 told them to none of this mess would have happend.
Well... But what if the JumpNode was already stable at this time?
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SCP CAN handle all those bombers and fighters. Just set your details and crap off and plop in 15 fighter wings. Give those wings 15 waves and set it so that each wave comes when the previous wave has one less fighter than the original.
each wave with four fighters....
60 fighters, 1 kill per wing and you have 105 fighters. It makes it seem epic, as a whole ****load of fighters come on and on. To make it better, you can edit the tables to give capital ships more powerful blob lasers, with faster refire and projectile speed for them, too. Have the waves not jump in, but appear near the main capship.
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Originally posted by Setekh
Having a poor need-to-know basis.
I'm with Setekh on this one. Command seems to hold back too much information that would be highly useful to people in the field.
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Originally posted by Gai Daigoji
:nod: Face it, if they had listened and shut down or destroyed the portal when Kappa 3 told them to none of this mess would have happend.
I never really knew, but was Kappa 3 from the same Kappa Wing from the lost patrol? What the hell happened to it?
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yes, that's kappa 3 from the same kappa wing. it was nearly obliterated by Shivans.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
I'm with Setekh on this one. Command seems to hold back too much information that would be highly useful to people in the field.
What do you expect? Our militiaries do that kind of crap too. :rolleyes:
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Kappa Wing, from the way I understand it, were the first Terrans to run across the Sathanas. Command was over-confident in the abilities of the Colossus and, for some unknown reason, thought that no other race would build a ship as powerful.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
I'm with Setekh on this one. Command seems to hold back too much information that would be highly useful to people in the field.
Actually, the purpose of the need-to-know-basis is to cover all the silly plot-holes. :p
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Originally posted by Flipside
Kappa Wing, from the way I understand it, were the first Terrans to run across the Sathanas. Command was over-confident in the abilities of the Colossus and, for some unknown reason, thought that no other race would build a ship as powerful.
I think Command thought Kappa wing was talking about the Ravanna or something to begin with - they didn;t seem to care an awful lot for what K3 had to say.
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Command did not MAKE mistakes, command IS a mistake...
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Who sais kK3 was even talking about the sathanas...
*Capmaign idea brews*
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Originally posted by EtherShock
What do you expect? Our militiaries do that kind of crap too. :rolleyes:
Our military has never classified all information on a hostile fighter so highly that the pilots who would face it in combat did not have access to that data.
GTVA stupidity uber alles.
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Originally posted by Andreas
Mongoose, you're forgetting that the Sathanas itself most likely has a fighter/bomber complement at least equal to the Colossus. That would be, what 240?
The GTVA could have never taken down 80+ SJs, and just for the record, even just 80x240 would make 19200 fighters and bombers. You think those pathetical Mjolnir RBCs could handle that? Let alone the Colossus?
And who says they would come out one by one from the Gamma Draconis node? Even if they would, eventually (if the GTVA could even muster a battlegroup strong enough to counter Juggernauts head on at that point) GTVA's forces would be depleted.
Their biggest mistake? Command should have saved the Knossos, I guess.
Mongoose does have a point.
A subspace node isn't really big, so not all 80 Saths can jump in a time.
If they were to jump in one-by-one, the GTVA could hold the line (providing it gatherws everything available at the node)...
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When I get a windows I might make one of my capship missions like "The Battle of the Line"
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I don't think the GTVA possesses the concentration of weaponry to take down each Sathani in time before the next arrive; and even if they did, it's probably be possible for the Shivans to attrite the defenses enough to eventually cripple the defenses.
I think the Shivans would probably be smart enough to use their 'support' fleet - Ravanas, Demons, Cains, etc - to create a defensive shield around the priority Sathani, along with sending in numerous fighter & bomber wings to strategically target enemy beam turrets and bombers.
It'd be a hell of a gamble to place pretty much your entire fleet directly in the firing line of an oncoming armada of vastly superior firepower and numbers; especially as if any got through, you'd be looking at a massive gap in defenses behind your blockade line.
To me command should have destroyed the Capella-GD node; quite why they didn't is a mystery (or, more likely, idiocy).
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Originally posted by Goober5000
They should have had a Meson-equipped Orion standing by to collapse the Capella-Gamma Draconis node during the operation to destroy the Knossos. It's called covering all your bases. After all, they weren't entirely sure the Knossos could be destroyed in the first place.
Considering that the Meson bomb was experimental who says that they actually had any meson bombs left to collapse the C-GD node in the first place?
It could very easily be true that three bombs was all they had.
The explaination for why they didn't destroy the capella-GD node could be similar. Although this time they had enough bombs and and fitted them into an Orion in time to blow both nodes out of Capella maybe they weren't quick enough to blow C-GD node and had to settle for evacuating Capella as their back up plan.
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The decision to pre-emptively evacuate Capella, and to continue evacuations even when it seemed that the Shivans had been beaten back, might have been one of Command's brightest moments. They managed to save a lot of lives that way; from reading the mission briefings, it seems as though few people died outside of those in the last few transports who couldn't escape the supernova. It's a little reassuring to know that even Command can get something right. :p
Regarding the Sathanes, I really wasn't considering their fighter complements, which is kind of a big oversight. :p You would need either a large amount of cruisers, a lot of pilots with skill levels similar to your own, or some sort of other anti-fighter defense to deal with them, presuming that the Sathanes dispatched their full complements. (Just out of curiosity, I know the Sathanes could theoretically carry a massive amount of fighters/bombers, but did the game ever give an actual value?) Regarding backup for the Sathanes, we don't really seem to know how many other ships the Shivans had. Even if it was a moderate amount, the setup I mentioned above could take care of anything cruiser-sized or below relatively easily. The real problem I could see would be with Ravanas, due to those forward-facing turrets, but they would be easily stopped with the Bearbaiting treatment. I could see how multiple capital ships coming through at once could be a problem, but as far as we know, there really isn't enough room in a subspace node for that to happen. It might be an interesting exercise to set up a test mission to try this out on a smaller scale.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
Regarding the Sathanes, I really wasn't considering their fighter complements, which is kind of a big oversight. :p You would need either a large amount of cruisers, a lot of pilots with skill levels similar to your own, or some sort of other anti-fighter defense to deal with them, presuming that the Sathanes dispatched their full complements.
Oh yeah, like the GTVA is going to have more than one Alpha 1 in their back pocket. :rolleyes: In my opinion, you'd need all of those resources, not just a few, maybe have a them on standby until needed possibly.
If only one ship could come through the portal at a time, those RBCs might stand a chance with fighter cover, a couple cruisers or corvettes flanking the node/covering the RBCs, and lots of gun emplacements. With so much fire spraying everywhere, it would be a lot more difficult to punch through but most definitely still possible for the Shivans due to their sheer numbers. The node is a choke point and should've been taken advantage of, especially since the consequence was essentially total anihilation.
The fun part is like Mongoose said, we could create missions to demonstrate most of these theories, if you're that into it. :p
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Someone's been playing TTR.
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Well I remember reading somewhere that the GTVA had some 20000-30000 fighters and bommbers protecting Vasuda or was I mistaken!
Anyway AFAIK the GTVA had some 20+ destroyers not to mention cruisers, corvettes....and so on and so on.
The whole RBC theory is quite posible.....just put at leats 12 of those things neard a jump node post 2 or 3 fleets just behind the exiting point of the shivan ships and the rest in defensive positions around the node and no matter how many fighters the shivans send you can take them out quite easely.
and just for the fun of it remember the Aeoleus cruisers the most deadly antifighter weaponry ever created...???
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Originally posted by Mr_Maniac
Well... But what if the JumpNode was already stable at this time?
Then the situation would be the same - except they'd know it a lot sooner. They would have had more time to come up with a new plan.Originally posted by Mongoose
The decision to pre-emptively evacuate Capella, and to continue evacuations even when it seemed that the Shivans had been beaten back, might have been one of Command's brightest moments. They managed to save a lot of lives that way; from reading the mission briefings, it seems as though few people died outside of those in the last few transports who couldn't escape the supernova. It's a little reassuring to know that even Command can get something right. :p
This is very true. :nod:Originally posted by AlphaOne
The whole RBC theory is quite posible.....just put at leats 12 of those things neard a jump node post 2 or 3 fleets just behind the exiting point of the shivan ships and the rest in defensive positions around the node and no matter how many fighters the shivans send you can take them out quite easely.
Not true. If the Shivans deploy all their fighters from all their Sathanes, they would be able to overwhelm the GTVA's fighters and take down the Mjolnirs. Then the GTVA would be out of luck.
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I don't think that the Sathanas can carry many fighters, it deployed 8 fighters for its battle against the Colossus, and I doubt that every Sathanas will have a full complement.
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You could say that the Colossus can't carry any fighters either since it deployed none against the Sathanas. Yet the cutscene says it can carry 240 fighters.
I'd say the Sathanas can carry at least that many fighters too.
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Well the idea was to take 2 or 3 thousand fighters from planetary defense and get them to the node...! Besides I dont think the shivans can send all of theyr fighters at once even with the whole "masters of subspace" thing going for them.
Besides consider how many flacks and AAAF beams and missile launchers you would have over there.....I doubt that a fighter can survive for more then a few seconds!
As far as I can remember the average destoyer complement per fleet was 1 maibe 2 depending on god knows what.
Add to that at leats 3 or 4 corvettes per destroyer and 2 or 3 cruisers per corvette and the numbers keep ading up.
And there you have it a **** load of AAAF beams ,flack turrets,missile launcers beam cannons and why not fighters. Remember that both the Hecate and the Hathepsuit class destroyers can cary some 150 spacecraft! still that does not compare to the number of ships the shivans could gather but the GTVA just have to wait for the shivans to come out of the jump node one at a time and take them out!
Even if the shivans could send in 50 fighters/bommbers at once they would be toasted before they even got a lock on enything.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
You could say that the Colossus can't carry any fighters either since it deployed none against the Sathanas. Yet the cutscene says it can carry 240 fighters.
It had been fighting battles against the NTF, so its fighter complement wouldn't be up to Scratch.
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There's a big difference between having taken casualties and not having a single bloody fighter on board though.
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From what I remeber it does deploy a wing of Myrmidons at one point, no doubt after you have lost all your wingmen(again) in Thier Finest Hour. I always thought people were maybe a little bit too critical of command, Alpha 1 after all only sees a very small (albiet key) part of the campaigns against the NTF and Shivans. They did thier best made lots of mistakes along the way and made sure Alpha 1 had an..intresting carrer.
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The Sathanas' carrying capacity probably isn't as large as the Colossus, IMO.
First reason: General conclusion is the Sathanas is not a warship (although frankly I don't agree with that), and as such it would not have a hefty fighter complement.
Second reason: Look at the sheer size of the Sathanas' fighterbay. It can deploy cruisers, maybe even a Moloch (dunno, I haven't tried) from its fighterbay. If one follows the logic that the Sathanas was not a warship, that fighterbay is not large so it can deploy hordes of fighters. Even if it is a warship, it still doesn't make sense to have a bay entrance-exit that large. The Lucifer could launch a few squadrons in twenty seconds or less with much, much smaller exit/entrances to its fighterbays. (Reference the Lucifer CB ani from FS1.) The bay must be that large for another reason.
The only reasonable conclusion I can think up is that they were expecting to land or launch something that large. Possibly freighters, maybe cruisers or corvettes? Taking that into account, and the facilities for handling such craft once inside the Sathanas, the number of fighters the ship can carry must be revised drastically downward.
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or they could lanch multiple fighters at once.
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Sounds like the Executor (super star destroyer) from Star Wars. That thing had a huge docking bay. Maybe referring to it as a fighterbay is innaccurate. Something of that size is most certainly capable of multiple roles. Even a hangar would be a more appropriate term. I doubt it was just used for fighters. I could be wrong, but why so big then? Why not just a bunch of small hangars?
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Originally posted by Fragrag
I never really knew, but was Kappa 3 from the same Kappa Wing from the lost patrol? What the hell happened to it?
Actually, the Shivans boarded us and took us into custody. They then made us chug 5 cases of Bosch beers each. When we woke up, we ended up here, at the HLP Forums. Pretty wierd, huh?
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Iv read whole topic.
Some things you ALL are forgetting.
1) Tech room or w\e said we have learned Little to nothing about shivans.
Thus their stratagy we Still are culeless about.
So the "They will deploy all fighters and swarm us easialy" or "They will send all 80 Juggs right away" things are based on what We would do, if positions were changed, to minimise losses.
Shivans dont give a flip about us. They deploy minmal fighters. How many fighters they deply when we killed the Jug? Not many concitering it was a big loss, or was it? They didnt seem to care, tho if they had 240+ squadron\wings\fighters w\e, they could easially deploy some and kill us, wrather thne having 2 wings blow up 240 shivan pilots and a big cap.
2) Shivan archetecutre is differnt by Far then ours.
Thus they may not care or hold as many fighter wings. Aka, collosus vs sathy. C gets 240, hell, Sathy could have 40 for all we know. The technology, inter system drives + Mega Uber Doomsday weapsons (x4) + Super nova sauce + Green wavy **** on the side + big engins, may take wayyy more power, thus needs more room thus alot less room for shivan fighters.
GTVA Specializes in making big ships, little guns, and a lot of fighter capability.
. . .
As for the 'we set up all defence and kill them one by one by the bearbateing stratagy' (Which i dont know what it is ATM..still). You say they would deplete our resources, well probably, but defeat us? No they wouldent unless Command is in Command of the fleet activities during the battlles.
I think they would send 100s' of H2's with Trebs, to debeam Easilly the sathys, and pick off any fighters and bombers, then report back, prepare, and kill sathys. They could flood us, 5 disarmed sathys takeing the firepower while other armed ones came in. Its possible, but then again with shivan stratagy and tactics. I dont think they would use the "Protect big ships with smaller cap shield" theory. We would if desprate, but them? Only grouping of shivan caps 4 mutual protetion i can remeber is the thing in FS1 with the foru Hell cains or something.
Stealth terran\Vasudan fighters could stay on the shivan side of node to report and recon ect. Not even the dragon can catch the Vasudan stealth, i think, not sure tho.
What else was i going to say.
Oh yah. Is it possible, sence pilot deaths, tho high, were actually low cauze of the spreading of "AI and Human" Pilots. Thus were human, and we command the stuipd AI, and there are many many differnt mixtures of human and ai wings through GTVA?
Probably a poor thought theory but.. eh worth a shot.
Edit: One last thing. Command brought the C out from nowhere without us even knowing in our briefing. Its possible they had another C, bigger\better, or started on one, or had other tricks up their sleeve for emergency uses only. Could have helped our 'every gtva ship to the GD-C blockade now!' defence.
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Wasting the bombs on the Knossos. I hear bombs are attracted to large warships.