Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: KARMA on May 13, 2005, 06:20:27 am
-
don't forget it's just a wip...
the wip of the big C ....
I don't have access atm at any imagedepot/ftp 'cept here: xoomer.virgilio.it/svfferra/col1.jpg
xoomer.virgilio.it/svfferra/col2.jpg
xoomer.virgilio.it/svfferra/col3.jpg
xoomer.virgilio.it/svfferra/col4.jpg
xoomer.virgilio.it/svfferra/col5.jpg
xoomer.virgilio.it/svfferra/col6.jpg
just copy/paste, sorry, maybe someone could upload em somewhere and edit the post?
they're just the engines but I think that it should give already a good idea of what I'm doing....and what I'm doing is not simply adding greeblings or minor changes but also mmmm rethinking the whole design, which is IMHO the only way to do that ship.
I'm not adding a 4th engine or a second handle or something like that. Sizes and proportions of the various elements will remain the same. Of course it'll be needed to rethink the turrett positions.
We could say that instead of adding some k of polys to a low poly model I'm remaking it as I think :v: modellers would have done it if they had actual poly limits.
Anyway, I'd like to hear your opinion
-
That looks seriously cool :yes:
-
Now THATS a thing of beauty! Great job :yes:
-
Wow. Now that is awesome.
-
a BIG improvement, can't wait to see the whole thing redone...
-
Wow, that's plain stunning so far. :yes:
now who says the big C can't possibly look really cool? :p
-
Fantastic!
-
Originally posted by KARMA
just copy/paste, sorry, maybe someone could upload em somewhere and edit the post?
I uploaded them to my uni account (since they're so damn cool), you can edit your first post if you'd like.
So here goes:
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/ebuerli/download/col1.jpg)
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/ebuerli/download/col2.jpg)
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/ebuerli/download/col3.jpg)
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/ebuerli/download/col4.jpg)
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/ebuerli/download/col5.jpg)
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/ebuerli/download/col6.jpg)
I'd call that an excellent start :yes:
-
My dreams... A High Poly Colossus!
-
holy mother of ****! you've actualy managed to make the colosus look good!
try to keep the poly count below 30,000. although a lot of that ubbergreebleing youve got could probly make use of the detail box code (finaly).
-
*rubseyes* :eek:
-
is....awesome:) :yes:
-
Looks brilliant, but I share Bobb's concerns over Poly count. How many is it so far?
-
Oh god yes... excellent start. Keep up that style and she'll look like a ship worth gawping at.
-
mutiple w00ts! that thing is sexorific!
-
Cool cheese.
-
ah sweetness!
But you might want to greeble after you have the rest of the ship made so you can monitor the polycount.
-
Originally posted by Rictor
Cool cheese.
That's no cheese. That's a warship.
-
Try giving it a single map.
-
Purple Turtles that's cool... but your polycount scares me, and my mediocre video card.
-
Wow, I defiantly like what you did to the engines for the Colossus. I am really curious for what you are going to do for the rest of the ship.
-
That's almost a little too detailed. :p Nice work, though. My personal preference would be for something that doesn't deviate too much from the Colossus's original design; I'm one of the few people around here that seems to like the Big C. :p I'm not sure if making any major modifications to the turret layout would be a good idea, at least in the realm of the beam turrets, since a few of the main campaign missions rely on their placement. Regardless, that thing is amazing looking; I can't wait to see how the whole thing turns out. :)
-
Originally posted by Mongoose
...I'm one of the few people around here that seems to like the Big C. :p ....
I am also a Big C*-fan. ;)
*C, not Cube, but Colossus!
-
...oh...my...
:jaw:
You've been takening lessons from IPAndrews, haven't you?
With THAT level of detail, I'd be suprised if you can get it ingame without any slowdown.
But good luck.
BTW: I too like the big C. Though it should have it's full armerment of 84 turrets (it only has 63).
-
cool have fun uv-ing that beast.
-
OMFG !! I thougt it was a new spacecraft. And after all, it is THE HTL colossus...
-
Tz, there is no need to cut the polies down, just make two versions, one detailed high-poly version for ingame purpose and an uberdetailled extreme-high poly model for use in renders and cutscenes.
-
NAh. Make all of the greebling untargettable subsystems and use Bobbaou's new code to make the greebling only show up when you're ~1500 meters from it, or something. :nid:
-
Simply drop this amount of greebling. It is not worth it.
-
Or you could listen to Bob and Raa who actually know what they are talking about.
-
Originally posted by karajorma
Or you could listen to Bob and Raa who actually know what they are talking about.
...
...
Nah.
;)
-
Originally posted by karajorma
Or you could listen to Bob and Raa who actually know what they are talking about.
I think this post is pointed at me. ;)
-
I was out these days so I can reply only now...
about pcount....
when I started I was aiming for 12-15k tris, but I soon realized that I was going well over that limit:p
The actual pcount of the engines is iirc 7300/7500 triangles, so I evaluate that the final pcount will be between 17k and 20k triangles, without turretts.
That's high but not THAT high.
Also, I'll make an high poly lod1 (something like 10k tris) in order to reduce the lod0 range and help those with lower specs machines.
I'll use that new code from bob, but I wasn't aware of it and I don't have an idea of how it works. Anyway, if it just lets you define the visible range of specific subobjects, it'll be useful only for the "pure greebling"; it can't be used, for example, for most of the the pipeworks of the engines, where I'd need more a "subobjects' lod system", I mean the possibility to switch between low poly and high poly versions of a subobject depending by the distance of that subobject and not of the whole ship.
The engines btw are heavily optimized: I cutted more than 1k compared to my first version, with some minimal visual lossess but ****ing up the "cleaneness" of the geometry, I just hope that this will not cause shading or lightning weirdnesses. I also sliced the mesh in many submodels to reduce the pcount, some of them are intersecting and I hope that this won't cause problems.
Side note: the horizontal engine is meant to be blocky, alsthought it turned out smoothy in the render.
-
Well, that doesn't sound too killer in the polygons department, and the subobject lodding as you describe it is pretty much what I'm hoping for, since it would allow, for example, with terrains to have a Terrain at Lod0 the whole time whilst to objects on it gain detail as they get closer. As the C practically is a terrain, it kinda makes sense that we are both thinking along the same lines ;)
Anyway, awesome stuff! Looking forward to seeing more ;)
-
This is looking very good.
-
Heh.. I looked at the first few, and I was like... "What the hell is that?" Then I looked at the rest, and I was like... "OH."
Very nice.
-
Wow... Never heard of 'nidding' before... ;)
Ersh... @_@ Sweet merciful prograsms!!!
(Prograsm: The Greatest Computing Experience ;) )
-
"it can't be used, for example, for most of the the pipeworks of the engines, where I'd need more a "subobjects' lod system", I mean the possibility to switch between low poly and high poly versions of a subobject depending by the distance of that subobject and not of the whole ship."
ummm...
that's exactly what it does, you define a box were a subobjec is or is not visable within, so you make a low poly version that is only visable outside the box and a high poly version that is visable only within, try to make ~1000 poly batches.
the closer you get the more objects should become visable, so you have a rough outline and more and more detail gets added
"some of them are intersecting and I hope that this won't cause problems."
it won't
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
that's exactly what it does, you define a box were a subobjec is or is not visable within, so you make a low poly version that is only visable outside the box and a high poly version that is visable only within, try to make ~1000 poly batches.
the closer you get the more objects should become visable, so you have a rough outline and more and more detail gets added
Quoted for good measure!
-
that's phantastic, I'm gonna rework a little the model then, using a little less optimized version.
Just a Q: you have to do it in the model (the box is defined during conversion?)? if so, what hierachy should I use?
-
it looks like a co... uhm ....lossus yea :D
-
I'd like to point out that I am still deleting posts like that. :p
-
just making fun of my bad behavior
-
wow...., realy wow
(can i use a ... and a , together?)
From this point on "Their finest hour" is officialy the mission i dislike the most in the whole game...
...except maby danqurke.
-
subobjects of subobjects that have a detail box do not get processed untill there parent is visable, so if you add more and more detail it will work eficently, only processing the boxes that are postentaly visable.
the converter does not understand this at all, so you will have to do things manualy. the fisrt thing you have to do is, in the object properties (in PCS, unless the max converter allows setting of this stuff) type
$detail_box:
followed by a 1 (drawing while inside) or a -1 (drawing when outside)
this code was origonaly put in place to allow super-detailed launch bays so, by default, it will use the object's bounding box to determine wather or not to draw the object, to define your own box, you will need two more strings
$box_min:
three floats defineing the minimum corner of the box, basicly all the values that would be negitive, and
$box_max:
three floats defineing the maximum corner of the box
the coords are in subobject local coordanants.
-
You can set that stuff in the user properties field and Max will export it without any problem. There's no error checking, but there isn't in PCS either.
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
$detail_box:
followed by a 1 (drawing while inside) or a -1 (drawing when outside)
this code was origonaly put in place to allow super-detailed launch bays
and maybe endor death stars too, mm?
and actually I was thinking that the detail box will work fine for the exterior of the death stars too....mmm... the only problem would probably be the pof polylimit.
anyway...a couple more questions:
1-If I correctly understood, I'll have to make the high detailed version as parent and the low detailed version as child,right?
2-can I use multiple detail boxes for more versions of the same subobject? I think yes from what you said but I want to be sure
3-is there a limit (strict or suggestable) on the number of subobjects with detail boxes that I can use? because if not I may try to make a fully scalable model and use only one traditional lod for the very long distances. It would take more time but the result will be much better
4- can someone remind me the limit of tris that can be thrown in a pof (counting all lods/subobjects)? and the max number of subobjects too?
thanks
-
*falls out of chair*
-
one of theese days im gonna model the ssj dante's interior so i can play with our detail box feature :D
-
I really wonder if these detail subobjects are counting against FRED limits. I suspect that those are table limits rather than model, but I can't really be sure. Anyway, don't go overboard because subobjects still get a seperate render call and so the more you add the slower it's going to get. It'd be better to swap out one for another than to add layer upon layer of detail, I would think.
-
"subobjects still get a seperate render call and so the more you add the slower it's going to get."
words of wisdom :)
but still if there is some pipe greebleing aroung an (200 meter) engine on the back of a 5000 meter ship, there is no reason to waist time drawing the two pixels that 500 poly's worth of pipe greeble is going to equate to.
@KARMA:
1)no, they need to be siblings (children of the same parent), child objects will only be drawen when there parents are so if you make a low detail version a child of a high detail one, it will never draw (because the only instance when it even will be evailuated will be when the high detail object is drawen, wich is when the low detail one never should be).
useing an engine again you have an object with 1500 pollies and a 500 poly version, the size of the object is about 200 meters, so 2000 meters seems like a good sized distance. makeing the two versions of the object childeren of the same parent (most likely the hull) you give them identical detail boxes, but the low detail version a -1 value and the high detail version a 1 value, in addition you make a bunch of pipe greebles on the engine subobject, lets say you use 1000 polys for this, but there only realy visable when you are looking at them from within 500 meters, so you atach the pipe greeble to the high poly engine as a child, then setup a detail box that is about 500 meters in all directions. now lets say after that you decide to make some super greebleing lot's of little cuplings and braces and things holding the pipes together and crossmembers and stuff, it adds another 1500 pollies but it's only visable when you are like right in front of the object, like within 100 meters, so you atach this super greeble as a child to the pipe greeble (because it'll only be visable after the pipes are) and give it a box that's just a little bit bigger than the bounding box of the object.
2)unfortunately this was built as more of an object culling system so you can't realy have like a 100 poly version of an object, then a 1000 poly version, and then a 10000 poly version, you can only have two, and if your not carefull you can end up with situations were both or neither get drawen. although in some very specific situations you can sort of cheat and get a few intermediary versions, but this requiers limiting how the player can aproach an object (basicly in a hanger)
3)don't make the entier hull out of sections, but it would probly be good if you could add detail in groups, the way this is suposed to work is the closer you get to an object the more 'stuff' shows up on it, it isn't exactly like the traditional LOD system you'r familiar with were you make poly choped versions of a high poly object, with this you simply add more objects.
4)well, the max number of *points* that can be assigned to one texture on one object is 65536, that does not equate to a hard triangle limit, but you know you will have at least 1/3rd of that (almost always a lot more than that, you could have more tris than points). don't think there is a max on subobjects, if there is it's probly 256 or 512.
-
"subobjects still get a seperate render call and so the more you add the slower it's going to get."
Would it be possible to set a "pristine" flag that would tell FS to render the model all at once? (This would be completely internal and set only when all the subsystems are undamaged)
Edit: Er, as the new submodel LOD system allows. I'm thinking this could really speed up rendering of fighters, which usually don't have subsystems disabled (as they die first :p) or any capital ships that use the ship-subsystem-guardian SEXP on all subsystems (So you could have a cap battle in the distance with less slowdown)
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
@KARMA:
1)no, they need to be siblings (children of the same parent), child objects will only be drawen when there parents are so if you make a low detail version a child of a high detail one, it will never draw (because the only instance when it even will be evailuated will be when the high detail object is drawen, wich is when the low detail one never should be).
useing an engine again you have an object with 1500 pollies and a 500 poly version, the size of the object is about 200 meters, so 2000 meters seems like a good sized distance. makeing the two versions of the object childeren of the same parent (most likely the hull) you give them identical detail boxes, but the low detail version a -1 value and the high detail version a 1 value, in addition you make a bunch of pipe greebles on the engine subobject, lets say you use 1000 polys for this, but there only realy visable when you are looking at them from within 500 meters, so you atach the pipe greeble to the high poly engine as a child, then setup a detail box that is about 500 meters in all directions. now lets say after that you decide to make some super greebleing lot's of little cuplings and braces and things holding the pipes together and crossmembers and stuff, it adds another 1500 pollies but it's only visable when you are like right in front of the object, like within 100 meters, so you atach this super greeble as a child to the pipe greeble (because it'll only be visable after the pipes are) and give it a box that's just a little bit bigger than the bounding box of the object.
mmmm I'm getting it now, a thing that I missed is that the rendering of the detail box subobjects is addictive and that confused me.
I was hopeing to have the possibility with this system to make a pipe of 6-8 edges that will transform in a pipe with 16 edges when you get too close.
Anyway, ok, it seems to me that the best way to proceed is to define a base-line mesh, which is what will be always rendered (at lod0), and then add details that will be shown only when people get closer.
I'll have to rethink a couple of things, and probably more than with the details already present in the wip shots I'll use it for new details, but indeed it's pretty interesting.
-
Fantastic stuff! :yes:
-
So do we get any updates or what?
-
Mighty neat !!! Those look really amazing, wonder when we get to see the new HTL-Colossus in-action ?
-
Originally posted by Unknown Target
So do we get any updates or what?
Of course we will get some updates, but it is far not sure it will be related to this model.
-
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Would it be possible to set a "pristine" flag that would tell FS to render the model all at once?
nope.
-
:bump:
UPDATEZORZ!!! WE DEMAND UPDATES! :p
-
I agree.
-
Originally posted by Grimloq
:bump:
UPDATEZORZ!!! WE DEMAND UPDATES! :p
Pot, meet kettle. :p
-
I am sure if KARMA makes any progress, he will post as soon as he can. You could have waited more than three days after the last post.
Patience, in the long run, is lucrative.
-
Front page reference for you, KARMA. ;)
-
It's not as good as Black Wolf's Big C ;)
-
Originally posted by Bobboau
holy mother of ****! you've actualy managed to make the colosus look good!
--Yep
And, yes, we need updatezz!
Great work, looks sweet.
-
PATIENCE, You will get updates as soon as KARMA finishes.
-
no hope that you'll get any update for a while, sorry:)
Just be happy enough that there's something in progress;)
-
that truly is awsome...
as to pollys; make it as many as fs can handle - my comp can take it :D
-
Originally posted by KARMA
no hope that you'll get any update for a while, sorry:)
Just be happy enough that there's something in progress;)
For clarification, does this mean you wont be working on this for a while, or simply that you wont be giving updates?
-
*Concerned this will slow his computer to a crawl*
-
Originally posted by freespace2pilot
that truly is awsome...
as to pollys; make it as many as fs can handle - my comp can take it :D
FSO can handel 65536 verts per texture per subobject, wich could easily work out to be well over 30,000 polies per texture and with the C haveing two main hull textures your looking at getting up to around 100,000 polys.
-
Ouch.
-
Originally posted by FireCrack
For clarification, does this mean you wont be working on this for a while, or simply that you wont be giving updates?
that I'm slow and busy so it'll take a lot to complete the model, and that I'll post only major updates
-
That's the better alternative, thanks.
-
Try getting up to ten million polys.
-
Move me to the FSU forum. And please rename thead.
-
*bump, even though redmenace already said something, albeit unrelated*
Anything new, if KARMA is still around at all?
-
KARMA has some RL stuff going on ATM IIRC. He'll be back eventually though, I suspect.
-
I don't supose someone could entice him to put his WIP files up so someone else could continue?