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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TopAce on May 15, 2005, 05:02:38 am

Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 15, 2005, 05:02:38 am
Now that KARMA's Hi-poly Colossus is on the way, I feel like asking why you dislike the Colossus so much? Is it because of the modelling, or the shape, or is it simply ineffective for your likes?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mr_Maniac on May 15, 2005, 05:57:03 am
Well... Let's look at all the technical breakdowns...
When the Colossus should have killed the Iceni, they had a problem with the fire controls, when they were in battle with the first Sathanas, they said, that their cooling-system isn't build for a heavy load like this...
What have the colossus done?
NOTHING...
It destroyed one Deimos, one Ravana and one Sathanas for which it took a very long time, when I remember right (the repulse doesn't count ;) )...
This ship was big, but not good...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ashrak on May 15, 2005, 07:03:27 am
yeah for a ship that size it should have been armed to the teeth and vasporize fleets instead of takeing day with a bloddy corvette
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: DeepSpace9er on May 15, 2005, 07:21:34 am
The BFG beams were just absolute crap. Therin lies the problem.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: n00by on May 15, 2005, 07:55:29 am
It's just a giant death-trap. Well, it MAY look intimidating, but for its size (cost, crew size) it is far too weak. Especially in terms of armament - even without that "cooling system" thing...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ashrak on May 15, 2005, 07:59:59 am
now the Neo-Colossus (from some campaign cant remembre) kicked arse it had like uhm 12 BFReds on both sides that was impressive firepower :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Taristin on May 15, 2005, 08:41:16 am
It was a glorious beacon of Terran Command's ineptitude.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on May 15, 2005, 08:54:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Maniac
Well... Let's look at all the technical breakdowns...
When the Colossus should have killed the Iceni, they had a problem with the fire controls, when they were in battle with the first Sathanas, they said, that their cooling-system isn't build for a heavy load like this...
What have the colossus done?
NOTHING...
It destroyed one Deimos, one Ravana and one Sathanas for which it took a very long time, when I remember right (the repulse doesn't count ;) )...
This ship was big, but not good...


With the Iceni the Colossus' guns were sabotaged by the SOC so ETAK could be used.  The Colossus also ripped an NTF Battlegroup to shreds.  The Colossus was never designed to take out Juggernauts, only to eliminate smaller ships.  If you put a few Orions against a Colossus the Colossus will own them.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Flipside on May 15, 2005, 09:34:54 am
Too many eggs in one basket, lack of manouverability, the heating problem was with the beams, not what it was shooting at, a well planned assault with 8 cruisers would have crippled it, a logistics Achilles-heel, too many blind spots, the list goes on.

The Colossus was a folly.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Gai Daigoji on May 15, 2005, 09:50:27 am
I thought the Colossus was a good ship, only that Command used it in the wrong situations :nervous:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: DaBrain on May 15, 2005, 10:22:54 am
The only thing I dislike is the shap and the model.

It just doesn't look very powerful.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 15, 2005, 10:39:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Maniac
Well... Let's look at all the technical breakdowns...
When the Colossus should have killed the Iceni, they had a problem with the fire controls, when they were in battle with the first Sathanas, they said, that their cooling-system isn't build for a heavy load like this...
What have the colossus done?
NOTHING...
It destroyed one Deimos, one Ravana and one Sathanas for which it took a very long time, when I remember right (the repulse doesn't count ;) )...
This ship was big, but not good...


The sabotage that allowed the Iceni to escape was not a fault in the Colossus' design. Rather was it the mistake of Counter-intelligence.
The message concerning the reactors is only a random message the High Noon's FREDer wrote just to have some messages to send.

And what has the Colossus done? Won against the NTF, saving the GTVA. It was the only ship that had firepower to deal with a Shivan juggernaut. Shivan warships have always been stronger than Terran or Vasudan ones. Think of an Orion-Lucifer duel and a Colossus-Sathanas one. See the difference? Simply the GTVA did not expect to encounter 80 Sathanas juggernauts. Why do you blame the Colossus for not being able to stop this fleet? What ship could have?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Andreas on May 15, 2005, 11:01:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by Raa
It was a glorious beacon of Terran Command's ineptitude.

Colossus was a joint venture (Emperor Khonsu II proposed it's construction in the first place), and as far as I know, Terran Command doesn't exist anymore in the GTVA, only Command, which handles both the Vasudan and Terran fleets. ;)

Reasons why I dislike it? Along with most of the other new ships in FS2, it is very poorly designed, big, ugly ****, and has a horrible brown-yellow-texturing.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuke on May 15, 2005, 11:02:55 am
surly 80 colossuses would have stood a slight chance against 80 sathani. had the gtva not had to deal with the ntf, the collossus would have been perfected before fighting the shivans. by the time it got to sathanas that ship had been quite beat up without a decent repair overhaul. the amout of damage a collision with the reuplse had caused im suprised the ship didnt fall apart sooner. parking the colossus in front of the sathanas should have been a nono. the intel alpha 1 gathered should have given command a better idea as to where the clossus should have been positioned.

the game was designed for fighter combat, the capships were only there to give the feel a ww2 naval battle, and to build a good story around. story and atmosphere are the 2 best things about this game, and in that respect the colossus was used perfectly :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 15, 2005, 11:03:47 am
The Colossus is pretty powerful.
There are four BGreens and four TerSlashes, each on the side.  When the Colossus was in powerful mode, the Terslashes went bye-bye and the BGreens turned into BFGreens.  The colossus' laser blobs suck because there is a small shipsize to range ratio, plus the blobs move slowly, do little damage, and are easy to evade.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Roanoke on May 15, 2005, 11:25:42 am
People forget the Colossus was designed to kill Lucifers, not Sathanas (that's kinda the whole storyline for FS2 too). No one in the GTVA was aware of the Sathanas clsass Jug while the C was being designed.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 15, 2005, 11:59:15 am
^
That's the point of my second post!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mongoose on May 15, 2005, 01:14:05 pm
I'd like to ask the same question myself, TopAce.  Besides you, I sometimes think I'm the only person who actually likes the way the Colossus looks.  Its design practically screams "super-ship-o'-doom." :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on May 15, 2005, 02:37:20 pm
ALL GTVA ships suffered from the massive cooling problems, hence the huge 30 sec recycle tyme for terran beams compared to the 2-7 econds for shivans.

And i also enjoy the looks of the colossus, not the ugly brown texture though.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: phatosealpha on May 15, 2005, 02:56:09 pm
It's just the looks.  The general shape doesn't bother me too much, or even the texture - it just really really needs high polying cause it needs a lot of extra detail.  It takes up a lot of screen real estate and it's a ship you see a lot of in the campagain, so it's low level of detailing really stick outs like a sore thumb.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Anaz on May 15, 2005, 02:57:17 pm
I've got no problems with the idea behind it, or the overall shape of it, I just think that super ships should be, well...super
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Roanoke on May 15, 2005, 02:59:55 pm
It nailed a Ravana no problem. How much more super do you need ? :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Flipside on May 15, 2005, 03:02:12 pm
Thing is, if command had decided to build 30 Destroyers instead of 1 Juggernaut, they would have been more versatile, less vulnerable, and would still have bought down a Sathanas, especially considering most of the work was done by Alpha 1 by taking out the Saths main beams, else the C would have been roasted alive.

This is why the US Navy mothballed ships like the Missouri, and instead focussed on groups of Ticos and the like, because small. adaptable ships which could be refitted to newer technologies more easily proved to be more effective than simple 'bigger is better' thinking. When the Colossus started being build, it was using tech that was 30years old by the time it came into service. Whereas increasing the production rate of Hecates for example, would see a slow progression of more and more advanced ships which could be kitted out to meet the needs of the moment.

Yes, the Colossus sunk the NTF, but so could 30 Hecates, and they could have been much more malleable and much harder to outmanouvre, thus making the job of blockading the nodes behind the C a heck of a lot easier, allowing the GTVA to focus more on the Nebula ops. In fact, once Alpha had removed it's 'teeth' the Sath could hae been destroyed by multiple wings of bombers at leisure.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 15, 2005, 03:37:24 pm
Nothing quite screams "You're DOOOMED!" like a battleship, though.

The Colossus single-handedly destroyed the NTF as a military force, doing in weeks what would have taken multiple destroyers months. The NTF had a lot of practice at node blockades, and threw back multi-battlegroup attempts to breach them repeatedly. They could not stop the Colossus. Sometimes you can get away with a bunch of smaller ships, but sometimes they just die too fast when exposed to heavy fire one at a time.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Flipside on May 15, 2005, 04:00:51 pm
It is true that the C did a lot of damage to the NTF, but the colossus was overpowered for what it was used for. As stated, it was designed to flatten the Lucy. Three Hecates could take down an Orion pretty swiftly, especially with fighter and bomber support. And even if you played safe and used 5 Hecates, that would give you the ability to defend 6 jumpnodes simultaneously (still working on the '30' value), yo could defend a larger area and engage more enemies simultaneously. The C had 8 Beam weapons, which usually meant it could engage 4-8 large targets at once. 5 Hecates could engage/delay almost twice that number, maybe not with the same single-hit power, but still effectively enough to mean far less ships were being allowed to slip through.

At the end of the day, I would much rather face a single large, unmanouverable ship like the C than a large number of smaller, more manouverable ships covering a large area giving me less room to breath, regroup or evade.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 15, 2005, 05:50:06 pm
I think one of the problems with the Colossus was that it never, as far as I remember, tore the hole out of another ship.  All I remember of the big C was being rammed by another ship, failing to hit the Iceni, and being waxed by a Sathanas.

That and it was a horrible shade of khaki yellow and green......
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Jal-18 on May 15, 2005, 10:14:14 pm
Actually, even the Tico's are now seen as too big... the USN loves the Burkes.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mongoose on May 15, 2005, 11:07:03 pm
aldo, it did tear the hell out of the Sathanas, albeit a disabled one,  in High Noon.  I think that mission is the reason why I like the Colossus.  I had played through Bearbaiting about fifty times in a row, getting more and more frustrated each time, in order to get all four of the Sathanas's beams disabled. :p Then, when High Noon came around, all I had to do was sit back, relax, and watch the Colossus pump more firepower into the Sathanas than any other allied ship had shown up until that point.  I liked the dialogue about the ship's heat sinks being absolutely pushed to the limit, and watching those massive BFGreens pound into the Sathanas never got old.  When that thing finally went up in the game's most massive explosion of all (I think you could feel the shock wave at several thousand meters), I almost felt like cheering.  I can't really explain it, but that, I think, is why I'm a big C fan. :)
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 15, 2005, 11:18:11 pm
I can explain it.

You were very tired and all from the bearbaiting mission.
When you got to high noon, you expected work but got none, and you were therefore glad.  Because you got to sit back and relax while the colossus tore the sathanas apart, you gave it respect, and therefore liked it.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on May 16, 2005, 01:54:03 am
The problem with the Colossus is that we never really got to see it in action.

While numerous destroyers might also be capable of taking down the NTF to does anyone here think that they could have done it without taking massive casualties too? Hecates and Orions are comparatively weak. Every time one is destroyed you lose 10,000 personnel. The Colossus on the other hand destroyed the entire NTF with no loses.

When the colossus is used for the task it was designed for then it does a fantastic job. I certainly wouldn't want to be on the crew of an Orion facing a lucifer class. A few shots and boom. The big c on the other hand would stand up to that kind of firepower long enough to deal with the threat.

Problem with the Colossus wasn't that it was constantly misused by command so much as the fact that when it was used properly, we didn't see it.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghostavo on May 16, 2005, 02:33:26 am
Not to mention when you saw it in action you had to be on the look out for it not to try to make a home run with you, alpha 1, as the ball!

God how I hate the location of that ship's rotation axis.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mongoose on May 16, 2005, 02:48:59 am
It's funny; I've never experienced that baseball effect myself, although I almost wish I had. :p

Dark RevenantX, you might be right.  Regardless of how I got through Bearbaiting, though, I think that the sci-fi nerd in me would have still been thrilled at the prospect of watching a several-kilometer-long warship tear into another several-kilometer-long warship with absolutely massive green beams. :)

Maybe one conclusion that we can draw from this is that our perspective of the Colossus is skewed by the missions we saw it in, which were mainly tailored toward Alpha 1's perspective.  It might be interesting for someone to make a test mission that really puts it through its paces.  Whether it involves taking down a few Hecates and Orions at once, or whether it's mano-a-mano with a Lucifer, I think it would be interesting to see how the Colossus really performs.  If someone was interested enough, you could even try making a mini-campaign of the Colossus's destruction of the NTF; we already have most of the ship names from the command briefings.  Who knows; if I ever decide to learn FRED, and if I ever develop enough creativity to come up with a good story/dialogue, maybe I'll give it a shot. :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mefustae on May 16, 2005, 03:48:48 am
While many would agree that the Colossus was the embodiment of bad naval mentality (Bigger is Better went out of style a loooong time ago), I personally consider the Colossus to be the 'Little Behemoth that Could'...

...You have to remember that, as some have said before, the Colossus did exactly as it was meant to do, it annihilated the current threat of the NTF, and held its own against a large scale (yet somewhat preliminary) Shivan Incursion. You cannot escape the fact that the Colossus proved admirably in what it was designed to do, save the GTVA (albiet for only a short time). Sure, a fleet of 30 Hecates would have been the better choice superficially, providing better mobility, customisation, and saturation of the enemy, but really, how would they have faired against 80 Sathani, no better than the colossus, and instead 30,000 of the Colossus crew dead, you'd have a whopping 300,000 Deaths! I don't know about you, but that's a pretty big number of Deaths...

...Moreover, you have to consider that the Colossus was built, not only a super-weapon against opposition to the GTVA, but as a major Morale booster, which it succeeded in doing quite admirably. I mean, who here didn't feel a little bit more upbeat and just plain awed when you first played through FreeSpace 2 and saw the Colossus blow the stuffing out of the NTF. 30 Hecates may have lifted the spirits of the GTVA, but not nearly as much as the Awesome scale of the Big C...

...Basically what i'm saying is; if you're examining the effectiveness of any ship, especially the Big C, you have to not only look at the Military aspect of its role, but also the Political and Social aspect too...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on May 16, 2005, 04:12:40 am
FS2 engine never had the capability to show the Colossus destroying so many ships. I'm willing to overlook this.

I like the Colossus. I don't even mind its texturing. I think the C kicks ass, you know? Big ol' pump-shotgun shape, lots of beams, invincible against fighters, blows the living shit out of destroyers and cruisers, etc... But a primarily forward-armed juggernaut blindsiding it is certainly going to destroy it. "OMGWTFBBQ COLLOSSUS SUX IT CAN'T TAKE A SATHANAS" SHUT THE **** UP. The reason the C died isn't because it sucks. It's because Command 1. Used the thing too much. 2. The coding kicked the C down to 66 in the mission where it dies, even if you take out all 4 beams on the first Sath.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mefustae on May 16, 2005, 07:35:36 am
Wait, i've completely changed my mind...I was just playing the mission "Sixth Wonder", doing pretty well i might add, and the Colossus shows up as per usual. At this point, i just sat back back and prepared myself for an entertaining laser-light show. And so, i waited...i waited...i waited some more...I put time compression up to 16x...nothing...NOTHING?!?

...So, i start flying around the Big C, hoping that whomever's driving this giant hunk of scrap will wake up and press the big red button marked "FIRE!", but alas, 40 in-game minutes passed quickly with Time Compression on full force, and nothing had yet happened...

...So i decide to take matters into my own hands, getting my Subachs (sp?), i fly down the the Deimos Corvette below, crank TC up to 64x, and unleash an unrelenting stream of Purple Death...

...At 120 ingame minutes (which is about Five minutes at 64x Compression), i've got the 'Vette down to 5%, Enif Station is almost at 12%, and the Big C, useless as per usual, is YET to fire...

...I get the 'Vette down to 1% and start to believe i might actually finish this mission, and then, lo and behold, Enif Station goes up in smoke, in less than a second compressed 64x, the 'Vette & Colossus have jumped, and i've failed the mission...

...It is for this reason that i shall forever truly Loathe the Colossus for taking away 5 minutes of my life that i could have been wasting in a far more productive manner...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 16, 2005, 07:49:40 am
That's the problem with the mission. Simply do not give any orders in that mission. That's not safe.

V had incautios FREDers, nothing special.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 16, 2005, 07:50:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
aldo, it did tear the hell out of the Sathanas, albeit a disabled one,  in High Noon.  I think that mission is the reason why I like the Colossus.  I had played through Bearbaiting about fifty times in a row, getting more and more frustrated each time, in order to get all four of the Sathanas's beams disabled. :p Then, when High Noon came around, all I had to do was sit back, relax, and watch the Colossus pump more firepower into the Sathanas than any other allied ship had shown up until that point.  I liked the dialogue about the ship's heat sinks being absolutely pushed to the limit, and watching those massive BFGreens pound into the Sathanas never got old.  When that thing finally went up in the game's most massive explosion of all (I think you could feel the shock wave at several thousand meters), I almost felt like cheering.  I can't really explain it, but that, I think, is why I'm a big C fan. :)


It didn't though (IMO); that's my point.  

There's a crippled Shivan warship setting of its starboard side, and it takes a bloody age to destroy it - and in the process wrecks itself by overheating the beam cannons....

There's not a single point I can remember, where the Colossus does a 'hero' bit and simply annihilates an enemy fleet or whatnot... it's always against a weaker opponent.

It's a technical thing, as has been pointed out.  But it's still annoying; we never see the Colossus being, well, super IMO.  Put me in a losing battle, the Aquitane / Psamptik / Carthage / whatever surrounded by enemy vessels, and have the big C jump in and tear them into tiny shreds.  That'd make me like it more.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: vyper on May 16, 2005, 07:51:15 am
One simple reason why the Colllossus was a bad idea: dreadnoughts went out with world war one.

You'd think the design of ships-of-the-line would've evolved slightly by the era of FS2. It was the phallic extension of Command, in a bad way.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 16, 2005, 08:56:28 am
Personally, I liek the idea of a rifle-shaped warships (alltouhg they sure picked an ugly rifle for hte big C).

The problem with C wasn't it's shape or it's weapon placements..

It was:
1. Stupid command
2. Weak beams...terran beams fire 4 times slower than shivan ones.. It's just too big of a handicap. Give terrna and shivan beams the same fire rate and THEN watch the Big C in action.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Singh on May 16, 2005, 09:00:39 am
The big C in itself had nothing drastically wrong....

What was wrong was the way command used it did. The biggest mistake with the colossus was that Command woke up that morning obviously drunk and acting all moronic-like.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 16, 2005, 10:58:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
If someone was interested enough, you could even try making a mini-campaign of the Colossus's destruction of the NTF; we already have most of the ship names from the command briefings.


Inspiration strikes!

Although considering the Colossus annhilated the NTF as a military force, I doubt that only what was mentioned in the CBs was destroyed.

The Colossus was uniquely suited to the role of node-blockade smasher. Only a few ships can jump through a node at once, small ones: you can only get one destroyer or larger through at a time. The NTF threw back repeated multidestroyer attempts to breach the blockades of the Polaris nodes, inflicting heavy casualities in the process. They could stop Hecates, Orions, Hapshepshuts, Typhons, and smaller ships in their tracks.

The Colossus? That was a different matter.

Sometimes you need flexiblity. And sometimes, you need a sledgehammer.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: StratComm on May 16, 2005, 11:32:31 am
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Personally, I liek the idea of a rifle-shaped warships (alltouhg they sure picked an ugly rifle for hte big C).

The problem with C wasn't it's shape or it's weapon placements..

It was:
1. Stupid command
2. Weak beams...terran beams fire 4 times slower than shivan ones.. It's just too big of a handicap. Give terrna and shivan beams the same fire rate and THEN watch the Big C in action.


We might as well move its center to a more reasonable location then, shouldn't we :doubt:

We can't go changing the tables just for the hell of it and call the new stuff canon.  It doesn't work that way.

What you're saying there that the GTVA would have the technology to equip the Colossus with such beams.  The point of the long coldown isn't to unbalance things, it's to reflect the relatively primitive state of GTVA weapon and energy systems.  The Colossus sucked because, well, it sucked.  It didn't look cool, had horrible coloring, worked wonders at shooting down a lone destroyer or corvette but nothing else, and was always seen by the player in a situation where it was either useless or was almost destroyed.  None of those things make that ship imposing.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 16, 2005, 02:54:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Personally, I liek the idea of a rifle-shaped warships (alltouhg they sure picked an ugly rifle for hte big C).

The problem with C wasn't it's shape or it's weapon placements..

It was:
1. Stupid command
2. Weak beams...terran beams fire 4 times slower than shivan ones.. It's just too big of a handicap. Give terrna and shivan beams the same fire rate and THEN watch the Big C in action.


RE: 2

There's a reason Terran beams are worse.

Offhand, I think Bobs Odin(?) destroyer is the nicest gun-like design I've seen.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Boomer on May 16, 2005, 03:08:53 pm
The Colossus was great.  That is, it was the greatest technological failure of its time.  While it was a political success, and yes, it contributed to several major victories.  However, it just wasn't designed well.  Think about it:

The term "Super Capital Ship" doesn't necessarily entail being big.  A Super Capital ship is a ship which is armed far more heavily than a typical capital ship.  On a ship the size of the Colossus, you could have had hundreds of beam turrets, but they only put in a measly dozen?!  Come on!  In a Super Cap, the surface area to turret ratio should be high.  The Colossus was sadly lacking in this respect.

[edit] The Colossus is however a beautiful sight, except for the khaki.  All I'm saying is, more turrets people, more turrets! Even in High Noon, the Colossus shot maybe 1 or 2 beams at a time.  When I think super-destroyer, I want to see a devastating oldschool "broadside" that pounds the enemy into submission.  Not some overly expensive musket!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on May 16, 2005, 03:17:23 pm
The other failing of the Colossus that I can think of was that it couldn't be used as a weapon of intimidation against sentient species. Shivans can't be reasoned with, and therefore can't be frightened.

And it wasn't really the fact that the C didnt' have enough weapons. It was more the fact that It could only fire 3 max at a time, just like other Destroyers. Damn you, programming...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 16, 2005, 03:36:04 pm
The Colossus would have been far stronger that way, that is true.

Sacrifices are to be made for game balance, I guess.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on May 16, 2005, 03:42:15 pm
Who cares? The second Sath still would've blindsided it with its four beams.. but still. That's how it should've been. If every ship could fire all its beams at once, it'd be way more impressive, but if the Colossus is meant to be unbalanced, and it obviously is, why bother to balance it?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 16, 2005, 03:44:40 pm
This is not only true for the Colossus. Of what use would it be that capital ships finish off each other in twenty seconds? That would happen if all the turrets were able to fire simultaneously(<- if this word is misspelt, don't comment, I am damn tired. :p).
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on May 16, 2005, 04:12:38 pm
Simlutanou... Simulltra.... um.... That word is spelt correctly TopAce.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 16, 2005, 07:14:06 pm
Using my magical method of ship scoring, the colossus scores 834 points normally, and if it switches its 6 bgreens into bfgreens, as in the high noon mission, it gets 852 points.
     The Sathanas, however, gets a whopping 1,349.5 points.

852 to 1350... the sathanas is almost exactly 1.583920187793 times better than the Colossus.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 17, 2005, 06:16:21 am
Interesting. I though BFGreens are much more powerful than standard BGreens.
Anyway, isn't the Big C armed with LRGreens in High Noon? Long Range beams, I mean. :nervous:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 17, 2005, 06:23:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r


Inspiration strikes!

Although considering the Colossus annhilated the NTF as a military force, I doubt that only what was mentioned in the CBs was destroyed.

The Colossus was uniquely suited to the role of node-blockade smasher. Only a few ships can jump through a node at once, small ones: you can only get one destroyer or larger through at a time. The NTF threw back repeated multidestroyer attempts to breach the blockades of the Polaris nodes, inflicting heavy casualities in the process. They could stop Hecates, Orions, Hapshepshuts, Typhons, and smaller ships in their tracks.

The Colossus? That was a different matter.

Sometimes you need flexiblity. And sometimes, you need a sledgehammer.


I have to agree with you on that last commnet.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 17, 2005, 08:36:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
Using my magical completely arbitrary  method of ship scoring, the colossus scores 834 points normally, and if it switches its 6 bgreens into bfgreens, as in the high noon mission, it gets 852 points.
     The Sathanas, however, gets a whopping 1,349.5 points.

852 to 1350... the sathanas is almost exactly 1.583920187793 times better than the Colossus.


There ya go; fixed.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 17, 2005, 09:27:21 am
It is by no means completely arbirtary!  It may be a little off of what it can really do, but it is just used as a gereral guideline.  I took the very induvidual stats of each of the weapons that are used by capships, got the damage per second, added that to what you get when you have the velocity divided by ten, and added all that to the range divided by a hundred.  I took that number, divided by fiftey, and what I had was the amount of points that one weapon was worth.  For flak, slash beams, homing weapons, and heet seeking weapons, I would modify the point values slightly, as to reduce that arbitrariness!

(((dmg•rate)+(velocity/10))[obtional custom operation]+(range/100))/50=Weapon's Point Value

If you add up all the points of the weapons in a ship, add that number to what you get when you take the hull strength of the ship and divide it by five thousand, and then add all that to the number you get when you double the ship's speed in kilometers per hour.  That total is the points of the ship.  This only works for capships, or a fighter would have the weapons worth, 10 points, plus the hull/5,000, plus the shields/2,000, 11 points total, plus double the speed... 191 points!  Wow, an ai fighter could kill a capship by itself!  You see, this way of doing things is great for capital ships!

[total weapon points]+(hull/5,000)+(speed•2)=Ship's Point Value
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 17, 2005, 09:44:22 am
?????????

Geez...wouldn't it be better to just rate the armor and damage done by ships weapons over time?
And even then, how can you account for weapons placement?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 17, 2005, 09:51:14 am
I had already stated that it is just a general marking, not the exact amount.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 17, 2005, 10:08:48 am
I notice you don't factor in maneuverability to your calculations.  Or the subsystem size / strength (plus likelihood of that susbsystem being destroyed and thus affecting the rest of the ship and the offensive spread).  Or  factors the position of turrets for capships.  Or turret refire rate.  Or default AI settings for ship/turrets.  Or power output.

Or indeed that the effectiveness of a ship is almost always determined by the tactical situation.

Hence I would judge a rating based upon a series of incomplete variables to be highly arbitrary for judging relative effectiveness.  Plus the inaccuracy upon a single weapons 'grade' will be multiplied by all the turrets upon a ship, thus increasing the existing inacurracy proportionally to turret numbers.

(not to mention your constants are themselves arbitrarily assigned).
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 17, 2005, 06:33:02 pm
Any more complex and I would have to make a java ship point calculator!  I don't want to have to use quantum math to figure a simple thing out!

Also, the constants are good for capital ships.  The speed effects a supercap less than a cruiser because the cruiser is harder to hit, so you would have to have some skill to hit it if it was fast.  A fast supercap is almost no different than a slow supercap; they are both huge targets.

The hull is a huge factor.  I don't want a Hades to be less powerful than an orion simply because of weapon innefficiency.  The Hades has 4x the hp of an orion.

Range is a powerful part of a weapon, but it is not something to use with multiplying because the further something is from you, the harder it is to hit it.  Therefore, you need to add it.

Velocity is more important than range, as it really helps when killing fighters.  It is not godly important, so I used it with addition rather than multiplication, but with a lower division constant than range.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 17, 2005, 06:52:02 pm
The constants are still arbitrary, though. Assumptative.  Made up.

Hence, not useful for an accurate weighted comparison; same as for any calculation involving attributes (plus it's very easy to subconsciously set weigtings based on your opinion as what is most important, rather than by testing).

You like it, use it.  But I don't think anyone else will regard it as a fair/accurate method to judge relative 'power'.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 17, 2005, 07:58:59 pm
Look, I did weapons first, then built the ship operation over that.  Okay, I admit that the ship operation is a bit arbitrary, but it's the best I can do when it has been three months since I last played FS2.  Still, a Sathanas beats a Colossus any day.

However, we are straying from the purpose of the thread!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 18, 2005, 06:50:36 am
agreedd...get back on topic..

the Collie doesn't stink! Only terran beams do!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Liberator on May 18, 2005, 09:01:59 am
So you're saying the C wouldn't have sucked so bad with Vas beams?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on May 18, 2005, 09:18:49 am
Don't be stupid.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 18, 2005, 09:38:28 am
The BVas beam is stronger than the BGreen beam, but much weaker than the BFGreen and LRBGreen beams.  In general, Vasudan beams are better than Terran beams.  Vasudans are too stupid to create their own superbeam, which would be better than LRBGreen.  Terran beams have the worst refire rates.  Vasudan beams aren't as powerful as Terran beams, but they fire faster.  Hell, a LRed is better than a LRBGreen!  You can fire up to five LRed shots before you get hit by a BFGreen!  It is odd, LTerSlash beams are better than SGreens!  For such a weak beam, you would expect a fast reload.  Sadly, it reloads the slowest in the whole game.  45 seconds is horrible!

The Mjolnir theory would work; Mjolnirs are more damaging than BFGreens.  Mjolnirs have the shortest beam reload in the whole game.  Why would a terran beam reload so quickly?  The world may never know!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 18, 2005, 10:12:12 am
Yes, I also noticed that the Mjolnir beams are good.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 18, 2005, 01:01:00 pm
Remember, folks, that the BFGreen and LRBGreen are supercharged BGreens. The Colossus' standard armament according to the tables is BGreens. Presumably, the BVas can be supercharged in the same way the BGreen can.

This also means that, technically, an Orion or a Hecate could fire BFGreen/LRBGreen shots, since it's only a supercharged BGreen.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 18, 2005, 02:02:18 pm
Yes, those beams are only used in High Noon.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on May 18, 2005, 02:06:14 pm
Why didn't they just put Mjolnirs inside the Colossus?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 18, 2005, 02:36:06 pm
Because :v: did not want it.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Black Wolf on May 18, 2005, 02:54:26 pm
I reckon its got to do with cooling. Mjolnirs are open to space and can cool easier, so the can refire faster. Plus they'd have an independent powerplant.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on May 18, 2005, 03:30:40 pm
Not to mention the fact that a mjolnir beam only fires at targets directly in front of it. You'd either need to devote an enormous amount of internal space to moving the beam or keep moving the Colossus itself in order to target anything.

Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
This also means that, technically, an Orion or a Hecate could fire BFGreen/LRBGreen shots, since it's only a supercharged BGreen.


Presumably the Colossus had bigger heat sinks that allowed it to supercharge in that fashion. A hecate might get off a shot in that way but would probably wipe out a large portion of the ship in the process.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 18, 2005, 06:45:37 pm
If the Colossus had Mjolnirs in place of BFGreens, then it could pose a threat to the Sathanas in a 1v1 duel.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on May 18, 2005, 07:54:05 pm
If the colossus had mljnors it could pose a threat to the whole sathanas fleet.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 18, 2005, 08:06:08 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Presumably the Colossus had bigger heat sinks that allowed it to supercharge in that fashion. A hecate might get off a shot in that way but would probably wipe out a large portion of the ship in the process.


I doubt the damage would be that catastrophic, but they'd probably burn out the weapon in four or five shots. Beam cannons seem more likely to fall into the "failure=meltdown" category then the "failure=explode"
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 18, 2005, 09:01:01 pm
Apparently, my more tested and lengthy version of my calculator thing gives the Colossus 1108 points at normal mode, compared to the 222 points of an Orion.  The Sathanas, however, only has 1580 points.  Mjolnirs would make the Colossus unstoppable if used correctly.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: IceFire on May 18, 2005, 11:19:56 pm
Colossus = Big Thumbs Up

Was designed to:
- Defeat Lucifer class destroyers
- Defeat other Shivan destroyers in number
- Boost the economies of the Alliance (20 year construction project is a big thumbs up to all the companies involved)

Pit the Colossus against 4-5 conventional destroyer class vessels plus bomber waves....all by itself...and it will still win.  Its not armed to take on one large ship...the Sathanas is...all its guns are arranged forward.  The Colossus was designed for broadsides...it can litterally wade into the middle and take out everything smaller than it that moves.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 18, 2005, 11:25:42 pm
Yes, the Colossus can take on ships with a total with more points than it.  All it has to do is destroy a few, then the points of the remaining ships total something lower.  Still, Taking on five Orions with no problem is pretty damn good!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: phatosealpha on May 18, 2005, 11:32:46 pm
I've been thinking a bit, and part of the problem is that Freespace 2 is very much a compendium of the most unimpressive moments of the collosus.

The sixth wonder:  It warps in and blows up a deimos.  It blows it up quick....but heck, a hatshetup did that in the very first mission.

The mission after that is just a resupply mission, and it doesn't even show up in time to blow the cruiser to kingdom come.  Joy.

The next mission we see it is the last of the bomber squadron missions where it annihilates an Orion that tries to crash into it.  This would've been more impressive if the two missions before it didn't both involve your puny inexpensive bomber squadron annihilating Orions.  And cruisers and corvettes and just about everything else in the universe.

The we don't see it again till high noon, where it caps the Sathanas.  Which would've been real real impressive - if it hadn't come directly after bearbaiting, where you (pretty much alone, since your wingmen are useless) turn the said Sathanas into a giant paperweight and then blow up a Demon class destroyer just cause you're alpha one and you can.

Then you get their finest hour, where they sit back and let the cruisers and fighters do the work till they take out one Ravana (and you take out one yourself earlier in the game, so its not too too impressive) then blow up.

They really could've given the big C some more action where it's actually impressing us, y'know?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on May 19, 2005, 12:52:57 am
Well, practicaly every other command group you head somthing like

"The Colossus destoyed the 2nd NTF fleet"

"The colossus destroyed a shivan destroyer group and escort"
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: phatosealpha on May 19, 2005, 01:01:43 am
That's kind of the point firecrack.  It's like "The collosus just annihilate the entire NTF fleet and blew up Epsilon Pegasi, just for good measure.  But you weren't there.  Now it's gonna shoot 2 fighters and a bomber.  go defend it."

FS2 really could've done a better job hyping up the big C.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on May 19, 2005, 03:56:24 am
I've been saying that someone should make a Colossus based campaign for ages. I'm getting tempted to do one myself now since no  one seems interested.

Since I don't need anything in the way of new mods I might be able to crank this one out at Blaise Russel speeds :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 19, 2005, 05:46:11 am
Well, I was planing of putting some of it's more stellar momnets in my campaign...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 19, 2005, 05:48:52 am
Delta wings = good for high speeds
Reverse wings (tips forward) = good for lower speeds (>1500)
Variable wings = best
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 19, 2005, 08:53:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
Colossus = Big Thumbs Up

Was designed to:
- Defeat Lucifer class destroyers
- Defeat other Shivan destroyers in number
- Boost the economies of the Alliance (20 year construction project is a big thumbs up to all the companies involved)

Pit the Colossus against 4-5 conventional destroyer class vessels plus bomber waves....all by itself...and it will still win.  Its not armed to take on one large ship...the Sathanas is...all its guns are arranged forward.  The Colossus was designed for broadsides...it can litterally wade into the middle and take out everything smaller than it that moves.


It can win, yes, but think of the cost and time the repairs on her would take. :eek2:.
That's what I think the main fault of the Colossus is, beside any other uber-sized ships, including real naval ships or spaceships from other fictional universes, it takes too much time and costs too much money to put her into its old condition.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 19, 2005, 10:52:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Delta wings = good for high speeds
Reverse wings (tips forward) = good for lower speeds (>1500)
Variable wings = best


:wtf:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: EtherShock on May 19, 2005, 11:01:55 am
Great idea! :yes: Wings will make the Colossus unstoppable! :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Roanoke on May 19, 2005, 11:20:35 am
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Delta wings = good for high speeds
Reverse wings (tips forward) = good for lower speeds (>1500)
Variable wings = best


where did that come from ?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mongoose on May 19, 2005, 02:35:08 pm
I believe that was meant for another thread in the Freespace Modding forum. :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 19, 2005, 05:03:06 pm
crap... How the hell that that end up in theis thread!?!?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Dark RevenantX on May 19, 2005, 05:56:35 pm
I thought the only problem was timewarps...
Now we have Text Warps!
Title: I suppose I'm reiterating, but...
Post by: Gregster2k on May 19, 2005, 07:34:29 pm
Back on topic, I personally also do very much like the Colossus itself, just not how Command used it. And yeah, they didn't expect the Shivans to have Sathanas class warships. I very much remember the tone in Command's voice when the first Sath in the nebula is discovered, and it pretty much said without saying, "OH ****".

If the Shivans didn't have Sathanas class ships, the Colossus would be the best of the best ship around, but FS2 drove home the point that when you are facing up against an enemy that has GOD-KNOWS-WHAT for its technology and you think you have the best crap in your armada don't be surprised if they have something bigger in larger quantities.

As for the usage of the Colossus, you can't fault Command for using it to get the Iceni, nor can you fault them for using it against the Sath. Command had a choice --- they could either let a Sath rampage through their systems with no idea of its intention (at that time they didn't know it was headed for Capella's sun) or deploy their best warship to duel it.

In retrospect, the only stupid thing about it was that Command should have deployed Mjolnirs and HALF THE FLEET against the Sathanas but despite having MANY scans of the Sathanas' specifications decided to pit the Colossus against the Sathanas alone.

The GTVA Colossus is a freaking awesome ship and perhaps the most tragic of any ship in the game. Its destruction was the equivalent of sending the most elite fighter pilots into a suicide mission with no backup --- which quite frankly HAPPENED --- *COUGH* "DIVE DIVE DIVE HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT" ... I never thought of the Colossus as a failure, I instead always wished that the GTVA would get NEW FRIGGIN FLEET ADMIRALS.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Liberator on May 20, 2005, 12:07:52 am
They can't, the officers who actually know what they're doing keep getting killed in suicide missions.
Title: Re: I suppose I'm reiterating, but...
Post by: TopAce on May 20, 2005, 04:53:16 am
Quote
Originally posted by Gregster2k
Back on topic, I personally also do very much like the Colossus itself, just not how Command used it. And yeah, they didn't expect the Shivans to have Sathanas class warships. I very much remember the tone in Command's voice when the first Sath in the nebula is discovered, and it pretty much said without saying, "OH ****".

If the Shivans didn't have Sathanas class ships, the Colossus would be the best of the best ship around, but FS2 drove home the point that when you are facing up against an enemy that has GOD-KNOWS-WHAT for its technology and you think you have the best crap in your armada don't be surprised if they have something bigger in larger quantities.

As for the usage of the Colossus, you can't fault Command for using it to get the Iceni, nor can you fault them for using it against the Sath. Command had a choice --- they could either let a Sath rampage through their systems with no idea of its intention (at that time they didn't know it was headed for Capella's sun) or deploy their best warship to duel it.

In retrospect, the only stupid thing about it was that Command should have deployed Mjolnirs and HALF THE FLEET against the Sathanas but despite having MANY scans of the Sathanas' specifications decided to pit the Colossus against the Sathanas alone.

The GTVA Colossus is a freaking awesome ship and perhaps the most tragic of any ship in the game. Its destruction was the equivalent of sending the most elite fighter pilots into a suicide mission with no backup --- which quite frankly HAPPENED --- *COUGH* "DIVE DIVE DIVE HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT" ... I never thought of the Colossus as a failure, I instead always wished that the GTVA would get NEW FRIGGIN FLEET ADMIRALS.


I have not read the whole post, but if Command had diverted half the fleet to the Colossus insread of launching scan mission, there would not have been enough information about the Sathanas and it would have destroyed the Colossus.
Title: Re: I suppose I'm reiterating, but...
Post by: karajorma on May 20, 2005, 05:41:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by Gregster2k
In retrospect, the only stupid thing about it was that Command should have deployed Mjolnirs and HALF THE FLEET against the Sathanas but despite having MANY scans of the Sathanas' specifications decided to pit the Colossus against the Sathanas alone.


1) Mjolnirs are new. I wish people would remember that before using them in arguments all the time. We've got no idea how long they take to manufacture or how many the GTVA has made so far. For all we know the Mjolnirs we see in Kings Gambit are the entire first production run.

2) Command had deployed half the fleet. At the time the Colossus engages the Sathanas they are now burning wreakage surrounding one of the jump points. In fact there are only a few assets (like the Aquitane) that we can be at all certain could engage the Sathanas. After seeing what the Sathanas did to the Phonecia in one volley I can't say I blame Command for not sending more capships against the Sath. While the Colossus can survive a shot or two from the Saths main guns very little else can.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 20, 2005, 05:43:04 am
The GTVA did divert half the fleet to launch a massive blockade against the Sathanas; it failed, which is the reason why the Colossus was sent in.

Of course, let's not forget that the Shivans have a number of other ships which would occupy the GTVA fleet........

EDIT; bloody hell Kara, stop jumping ahead!!  :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on May 20, 2005, 08:36:25 am
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
They can't, the officers who actually know what they're doing keep getting killed in suicide missions. [/QUOTE


LOL!:lol:

Quote

Command had deployed half the fleet. At the time the Colossus engages the Sathanas they are now burning wreakage surrounding one of the jump points. In fact there are only a few assets (like the Aquitane) that we can be at all certain could engage the Sathanas. After seeing what the Sathanas did to the Phonecia in one volley I can't say I blame Command for not sending more capships against the Sath. While the Colossus can survive a shot or two from the Saths main guns very little else can.


Stragne how the Sath comes in with 100% hull after engaging half the fleet? What, they didn't fire a shot?
And talk about an even bigger stupidity, why send a fleet against a Sath alone? Wouldn't it have been better if they pulled the fleet back to the Colossus and all ships engaged at once?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Gai Daigoji on May 20, 2005, 08:47:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


Stragne how the Sath comes in with 100% hull after engaging half the fleet? What, they didn't fire a shot?
And talk about an even bigger stupidity, why send a fleet against a Sath alone? Wouldn't it have been better if they pulled the fleet back to the Colossus and all ships engaged at once?


That would have been the SMART thing to do, and we all know Command is anything but smart.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 20, 2005, 11:23:03 am
Bearbaiting had to be hard. That's the reason.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 20, 2005, 12:41:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


Stragne how the Sath comes in with 100% hull after engaging half the fleet? What, they didn't fire a shot?
And talk about an even bigger stupidity, why send a fleet against a Sath alone? Wouldn't it have been better if they pulled the fleet back to the Colossus and all ships engaged at once?


They were trying to break the Sath down; because they knew the fleet couldn't win a direct confrontation, they were trying to slow it down (partly to help evac Capella), and to damage it incrementally.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on May 20, 2005, 03:41:17 pm
Normally, if the Sathanas is attacked from the back, it's quite vulnerable. How come Command did not recognise this?

I would have prefered an 'attack the Sathanas with everything we have got'-type mission to the High Noon mission we all know.

Of course, that's only me.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on May 20, 2005, 04:23:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
Normally, if the Sathanas is attacked from the back, it's quite vulnerable. How come Command did not recognise this?

I would have prefered an 'attack the Sathanas with everything we have got'-type mission to the High Noon mission we all know.

Of course, that's only me.


They probably expected the Sathanas would simply jump out if under that threat, or deploy defensive cover either through its own fighter/bomber complement or a supporting fleet.

High Noon should have been a proper engagement, definately.  But I guess it wasn't technically feasible for them....
Title: Re: Re: I suppose I'm reiterating, but...
Post by: Gregster2k on May 24, 2005, 09:54:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


1) Mjolnirs are new. I wish people would remember that before using them in arguments all the time. We've got no idea how long they take to manufacture or how many the GTVA has made so far. For all we know the Mjolnirs we see in Kings Gambit are the entire first production run.


Hmmm...good point.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: oohal on June 01, 2005, 04:01:39 am
bah the whole reason command sucked so bad is freespace 2 engine restrictions, can you imagin how slow it would run if you had half the GTVA armada attacking the sath. But still it would have been better to have some missions where you can see the awesome power of the big C wasting a dozen cruisers/corvetts

-oohal
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on June 01, 2005, 07:04:44 am
FreeSpace was not memory-devouring, not even its age. There could have been a better fight. I guess the point is rather the 'poly-per-screen' restriction.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: CFInsane on June 23, 2005, 10:07:08 pm
like some of you said, the colossus was never meant to engage sathanas juggernauts, and the colossus is very INEFFECTIVE against the juggernauts.  a sathanas with the 4 beams fully functioning will tear the colossus to shreds in seconds, and i have tried it with FRED2.

but, the colossus wasnt weak **** either, it was VERY strong and VERY effective against other ship classes. it rips shivan crusiers and destroyers to bits.  i tried a scenario in FRED2 where the colossus is surrounded by 4 deimos class corvettes and 2 Orion destroyers, and yes, surrounded.  i also made a small fleet consisting of 6 aeolus class cruisers, 4 deimos class corvettes, an Orion, and an iceni ship move in to attack the colossus as a reinforcement fleet for the current attacking ones surrounding the colossus.  the colossus destroyed the surrounding corvettes and destroyers and destroyed the reinforcement fleet.  the colossus however does suffer a lot of damage because they were a lot of ships, but it survived with around 20 hull integrity left.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on June 23, 2005, 10:30:39 pm
Hmm... CFInsane, you've given me an idea(basically do exactly what you said you did).

By the way, welcome!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 23, 2005, 10:34:11 pm
:welcome: (There, guys, the welcome beam has been fired. Could we try not to deep-fry this one? ;) )

I like some of the points you just made, though I would like to continue on them a bit. :)

Whether this has been posted or not before, I would like to point out the reason why the Colossus was ineffective against the Sathanas: it wasn't designed to fight Saths. The Colossus was designed, IIRC, to destroy another Shivan Lucifer, and, as the Shivans attacked a second time with much more powerful weapons, the Sathanas was found to more than powerful enough to take down the Colossus--the GTVA apparently only prepared itself for what it knew that the Shivans had, but not by what the Shivans could have possibly had for them.

If you want a little more on this, you could read up on a slightly-related topic in the "Shivans, Beams, and the Great War" thread just around this one--my most recent post can vaguely explain what I just summarized.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: DarthWang on June 23, 2005, 10:49:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TopAce

 Why do you blame the Colossus for not being able to stop this fleet? What ship could have?


The Death Star.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: DarthWang on June 23, 2005, 10:56:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
aldo, it did tear the hell out of the Sathanas, albeit a disabled one,  in High Noon.  I think that mission is the reason why I like the Colossus.  I had played through Bearbaiting about fifty times in a row, getting more and more frustrated each time, in order to get all four of the Sathanas's beams disabled. :p Then, when High Noon came around, all I had to do was sit back, relax, and watch the Colossus pump more firepower into the Sathanas than any other allied ship had shown up until that point.  I liked the dialogue about the ship's heat sinks being absolutely pushed to the limit, and watching those massive BFGreens pound into the Sathanas never got old.  When that thing finally went up in the game's most massive explosion of all (I think you could feel the shock wave at several thousand meters), I almost felt like cheering.  I can't really explain it, but that, I think, is why I'm a big C fan. :)



Actually, the game's most massive explosion of all occured in the last mission:D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on June 23, 2005, 10:58:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CFInsane
like some of you said, the colossus was never meant to engage sathanas juggernauts, and the colossus is very INEFFECTIVE against the juggernauts.  a sathanas with the 4 beams fully functioning will tear the colossus to shreds in seconds, and i have tried it with FRED2.

but, the colossus wasnt weak **** either, it was VERY strong and VERY effective against other ship classes. it rips shivan crusiers and destroyers to bits.  i tried a scenario in FRED2 where the colossus is surrounded by 4 deimos class corvettes and 2 Orion destroyers, and yes, surrounded.  i also made a small fleet consisting of 6 aeolus class cruisers, 4 deimos class corvettes, an Orion, and an iceni ship move in to attack the colossus as a reinforcement fleet for the current attacking ones surrounding the colossus.  the colossus destroyed the surrounding corvettes and destroyers and destroyed the reinforcement fleet.  the colossus however does suffer a lot of damage because they were a lot of ships, but it survived with around 20 hull integrity left.


That's a whole GTVA fleet minus fighters and a few cruisers.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on June 23, 2005, 11:02:23 pm
Yes, which means the Big C kicks ass, FC.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: DarthWang on June 23, 2005, 11:03:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
The other failing of the Colossus that I can think of was that it couldn't be used as a weapon of intimidation against sentient species. Shivans can't be reasoned with, and therefore can't be frightened.




Even if they could, I don't think the C would do it, considering they had an available fleet of at least 80 ships just as big and powerful as it was.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on June 23, 2005, 11:07:39 pm
What happens if you surround a sath with an equivalent fleet?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 23, 2005, 11:08:27 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
Yes, which means the Big C kicks ass, FC.


That is assuming, of course, that nothing happens to the Colossus during the battle, such as overloading or redlining fire control or heat sinks as the Colossus did against the Sathanas. What is there to assume that the Colossus wouldn't do the same against a huge number of warships, which could all outflank the Colossus's weapons/destroy the weapons/cripple the ship in multiple ways and then finish it off?

The Colossus was mostly intended (IMO) to handle one-on-one engagements, be it with the Repulse, the Iceni, the predicted-Lucifer, or the Sathanas, but not large-fleet engagements, as some depict it as doing. The Colossus has a lot of firepower spread across its hull, and directing it into one target is much more effective than spreading it out over multiple vessels at the same time.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: DarthWang on June 23, 2005, 11:14:50 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
Normally, if the Sathanas is attacked from the back, it's quite vulnerable. How come Command did not recognise this?

I would have prefered an 'attack the Sathanas with everything we have got'-type mission to the High Noon mission we all know.

Of course, that's only me.



I made a mission just like that! It's going to be in the campaign I'm making
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: CFInsane on June 23, 2005, 11:52:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
What happens if you surround a sath with an equivalent fleet?


sath will probably get destroyed, but VERY slowly.  the sathanas will destroy everything in the front or in firing range of the beam cannons.

the reinforcing fleet, if coming in from the front, will get torn up.

a sathanas, is VERY strong and nearly impossible to assault from the front (unless you have bombers).  i matched up a small battle where a single sathanas faces off with a terran vasudan fleet.  the fleet is huge, and it consists of a hecate, orion, and hatshepsut destroyer.  the fleet has 4 deimos and 2 sobek class corvettes, 4 leviathan crusiers, 4 aeolus cruisers, and 5 aten cruisers(thses are useless)

on start, you see about 8-10 beams shooting at the sathanas and that probably puts the sathanas around 90-95 hull integrity.  then the sathanas shoots its beams, and on the first wave, 2 deimos corvettes get destroyed.  then eventually the entire fleet gets destroyed.  i added bombers into the mix to see what happens, and the sathanas does get destroyed, but all the captial ships are also gone.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 24, 2005, 01:43:08 am
The sathanas' rear/lower areas are protected by an LRed, which is more than enough to paste any destroyer. If you attack it from the rear, all it has to do is shift its front downwards ever so slightly, and any capship can kiss it's ass goodbye.

Whatsmore, the Sathanas can turn (OMGWTFBBQ!), meaning positioning means squat.

*Orion pops in behind a Sathanas

Admiral Newb: H4 H4! I 0wn3d j00, pR3p4R3 t0 D13!!10oneone!!!!1

*Orion fires BGreens and TerSlash's, bringing the Sathanas down to 99%

*Sathanas turns around

Admiral Newb: ****.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Pnakotus on June 24, 2005, 01:52:11 am
I agree: all this 'OMFG t3h TGVA is soooooo dumbzor!!!11' stuff is inane.  Given SJs shape, a slight roll 'downwards' would bring the lower super-kill-you-fcuking-dead beams into play against anyone behind them, and do people really think it'd take the minutes required for SJ to turn around?  Sure, FS capship AI might be stupid, but THINK about this.

Course, I'd like to see an SJ with a proportional fighter/cap escort and not wandering around by itself, but hey, whatever.  Remember the Yamato?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on June 24, 2005, 02:23:19 am
But nuke, come on. That was in there solely for storyline and "OMG THE COLOSSUS MIGHT DIE!!!11ELEVEN" stuff. As long as it keeps firing(and so will the fleet) then it'll prevail.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on June 24, 2005, 08:18:00 am
The Colossus in High Noon had stronger beams than usual mounted on it. That's why the Reactors were blowing.

And on a side note, what's with all the l33t in this thread?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 24, 2005, 10:57:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by nuclear1


That is assuming, of course, that nothing happens to the Colossus during the battle, such as overloading or redlining fire control or heat sinks as the Colossus did against the Sathanas. What is there to assume that the Colossus wouldn't do the same against a huge number of warships, which could all outflank the Colossus's weapons/destroy the weapons/cripple the ship in multiple ways and then finish it off?


Faulty logic.

Colossus' standard table mounts BGreens. Colossus' problems in engagement against the Sathanas were due to overcharging its beam cannon to produce BFGreens.

Unless CFInsane altered the tables or manually changed the beams in FRED, the Colossus would have maintained that rate of fire indefinitely.

Regarding the Sathanas: attacking it from MULTIPLE vectors is essential. At least give the GTVA that much credit.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: JoeLo on June 24, 2005, 11:05:48 am
I liked the C, proabably because I'm a sucker for huge ships. I think hi-poly is nessecary, but it was still pretty cool.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Boomer on June 24, 2005, 11:32:22 am
Why is it that the Colossus never uses it's fighterbay?  

In High Noon, the Colossus should have been throwing out bombers like nobody's business.  Yet, lo and behold!  4 bombers are all that is assumed necessary.

BTW, call me a swip swap, but I just realize that the big C kicks ass, it's only problem lies with the AI (and some technical ones maybe), but on the whole, the Big C could take out anything that came it's way.  (Minus a Sathanas of course...)
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Fade Rathnik on June 24, 2005, 12:17:05 pm
Hey is the FS for homeworld mod working yet, test fleet engagments in there.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Liquid Fire on June 24, 2005, 12:57:15 pm
It works, sure, but it's only freespace 1 right now, so the only thing with beams is the lucifer.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on June 24, 2005, 01:09:57 pm
The C does deploy some fighters, but only in "Their finest hour"

It deploys two wings, one perseus, one boanerges.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 24, 2005, 01:26:45 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r


Faulty logic.

Colossus' standard table mounts BGreens. Colossus' problems in engagement against the Sathanas were due to overcharging its beam cannon to produce BFGreens.

Unless CFInsane altered the tables or manually changed the beams in FRED, the Colossus would have maintained that rate of fire indefinitely.

Regarding the Sathanas: attacking it from MULTIPLE vectors is essential. At least give the GTVA that much credit.


Are we talking simply from a game standpoint, or if such an engagement actually happened? In Real Life™, a number of things could go wrong, as I elaborated on in the first point. The Colossus, while still powerful, had a number of weaknesses, and they came to be exploited on a number of occassions. For one, the Colossus was meant to fight the Lucifer, which may have been more vulnerable to BGreens and Slash beams, but as soon as the Sathanas came along, which happened to be much tougher than a Lucifer, the Colossus had to up its firepower--therefore using BFGreens and LRBGreens which would cause its cannons to overheat.

Now assuming a large fleet engagement occurred: it's safe to assume that the fleet commanders attacking the Colossus aren't stupid--they more than likely will realize the dangers posed by the ship's anti-cap beams and will try as best as possible to disable them or somehow get around them. This can be accomplished using a Bosch-style sabotage to the fire control systems, or simply attacking certain subsystems of the ship that would lead to an overload or power spike in the beam turrets.

In Real Life™, all sorts of things can happen. If we're simply talking about placing the Colossus and a dozen or so enemy caps in FRED2, hitting Beam-free-all and then playing the mission, then yes, the Colossus would maintain the same fire rate.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on June 24, 2005, 05:24:26 pm
And somehow in real life the collossus inst allowed to disable turrets on enemy capital ships or deploy interceptors to defend it....


not to mention the colossus would have the rest of it's fleet with it.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 24, 2005, 05:42:51 pm
Still faulty logic.

In Real Life™, the Colossus remains practically unstoppable. The sheer size and armoring of it resists rapid or easy disabling of turrets/weapons subsystem/engine. The only area of safety from its beams is directly aft of the engines...in the engine wash. Bad place to be, as in Real Life™ the Colossus engine wash would be considerably more powerful then an Orion's or Hecates.

Also in Real Life™ at least grant the Colossus the same abilities you would its enemies. A single BGreen is enough to knock out most subsystems on anything up to and including a destroyer. Lost engine subsystems, and inability to manuver, would render its opponents unable to seek safety from its beam fire.

The Colossus is surprisingly fast for something its size: 25 m/s, which means that in Real Life™ it can outrun any destroyer in FS, and hold even, at minimum, with most cruisers. It is also surprisingly quick to manuver (baseball bat effect, anyone?). This casts doubt on the likelyhood of being able to effectively approach from an angle it cannot engage you at.

The NTF sabotage of the Colossus' weapons knocked them out for twenty seconds. No more. The Colossus can easily weather twenty seconds of enemy fire. In Real Life™ knocking out the Colossus' weapons subsystem would not slow its rate of fire, only degrade its accuracy, and given the size and speed of the targets it would be engaging it would be difficult to miss even so.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: MedicinalGoat on June 24, 2005, 11:53:35 pm
Regardless of whether or not it was an effective machine of war it did help one thing: the economy (This was already touched on earlier in the thread). Kind of like a new Tennessee Valley Authority to help push society through the economic turmoil that the first great war left. The Colossus involved hundreds if not thousands of contractors and probably created a few billion jobs. Hope those GTVA politicans enjoy trying to do something with all that debt now that the fruits of the labor got toasted :D

Oh, and the Colossus was really ugly. Honestly, for 20 years of work and money you think they could make it look more like a ship rather than a cryptic tool or bizarre tantric sex toy.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 24, 2005, 11:55:22 pm
:lol:

You make some good points, Goat. :)

:welcome:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: ChronoReverse on June 25, 2005, 01:19:22 am
Quote
Originally posted by Boomer
Why is it that the Colossus never uses it's fighterbay?  

In High Noon, the Colossus should have been throwing out bombers like nobody's business.  Yet, lo and behold!  4 bombers are all that is assumed necessary.


The mission briefing states that damage had blocked the fighterbay entrance while all deployed craft were destroyed already and that's why you have no reinforcements.

My question is why they didn't think of having more than one door when they designed the thing.



Personally, I've always liked the Colossus.  That's mostly because I'm a sucker for gigantic capital ships that fire enormous beam weapons (unlike the equally enormous Star Destroyers that fire peas in Tie Fighter).
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: EtherShock on June 25, 2005, 10:21:33 am
Obviously, the Terrans suggested one hangar.

That's why I like big ships too, but I think we all can agree that they're impractical and huge targets.

The star destroyers had turbolasers with a huge range in XWA though. They were fearsome to cap ships and stations from a considerable distance.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on July 09, 2005, 03:14:12 pm
I just FREDded a mission with a Hecate, an Orion, a Hatshepsut, a Typhon, and a Ravana against a Colossus with no fighters involved.

After about 10 Minutes all that remained was the Colossus and a Large Debris field.

This shows that the Colossus is excellent at what it is designed to do.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kosh on July 09, 2005, 04:46:31 pm
One thing I don't like about the Collossus is that it is a real ***** to repair. After High Noon, it was stated that it would take "many months" of repairs to make it fully operational.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on July 09, 2005, 05:45:17 pm
That was cause they had melted the heat sinks on the beam cannons by overloading them in order to kill the sath. They can probably repair other damage at a reasonable rate but getting new heat sinks probably involved actually making new ones.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Steel on July 09, 2005, 05:45:40 pm
while i like FS a lot, i do think the ships look a bit odd.  take the colossus - a very long extension from the main hull with more engines mounted at the end of it...  seems like it would be a bit difficult to keep proper forward momentum with the long moment arm of that additional thrust off center from the rest of the thrust...

i think ships look better if ther are  a bit more like Star Wars or Robotechish (maybe disounting the SDF in its somewhat robotic form) and the space battleship yamato sure does look cool as well...  kinda so they make sense, rather than (as somone else said) a trantic sex toy...  :wtf:

ah well, i know there should not be too serious limitations on streamlining, but thrust vectors should be taken into account.

yes, i know it is sci-fi,   :)
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 09, 2005, 06:56:08 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
That was cause they had melted the heat sinks on the beam cannons by overloading them in order to kill the sath. They can probably repair other damage at a reasonable rate but getting new heat sinks probably involved actually making new ones.


Not to mention other sections of the ship affected by this, excessive current draw from the reactors could cause the coils of generators to fuse, power counduits would probably have melted here and there, the beam cannons themselves may have taken excessive damage, compulsators torn apart for example, mabye they're big an require precision macining.

It's not a case of slapping some new armour on the ship, it's an engineering nightmare.





I personaly like the FS style, how things are tall and have extranuous engines on the bottom, if you think about it it would be somwhat logical for manuvering, atleast in pitch, this way.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Taristin on July 09, 2005, 07:26:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by EtherShock
Obviously, the Terrans suggested one hangar.
 


Unlike the Vasudans, the Terrans feel that any additional fighterbays would be a waste of space and a redundancy quite unnecessary...


*shrugs* 's what happens when you build foolishly.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 09, 2005, 08:12:36 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kosh
One thing I don't like about the Collossus is that it is a real ***** to repair. After High Noon, it was stated that it would take "many months" of repairs to make it fully operational.


Actually, that was because you get the same debriefing wether or not the Colossus is damaged. If you do destroy all  4 beam cannons, you get the good job debriefing - even if the C survived with 1% hull. However, if the C destroyes the Sathi before you take out all the beams, you get stg like "had you completed your objectives, the C would've sustained less damage". This is quite strange, but I guess [V] made Bearbeiting so hard so that you can`t destroy all beams and the C suffers damage. Then the C`s comm officer`s shouting makes much more sense ("were giving it all we`ve got" etc.), and the mission is more interesting (since you have to destroy two or one more beams while enemy fighters are attacking you). If you do destroy the beams, you still get the medal, even if you failed to complete Bearbeiting perfectly.

BTW, that cb was clearly referring to the hull: it will take several monts "to fully repair the warships hull"
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Fenrir on July 09, 2005, 08:31:03 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld
I just FREDded a mission with a Hecate, an Orion, a Hatshepsut, a Typhon, and a Ravana against a Colossus with no fighters involved.

After about 10 Minutes all that remained was the Colossus and a Large Debris field.

This shows that the Colossus is excellent at what it is designed to do.


Indeed. The Colossus was supposed to be the biggest and baddest of them all. When they were building it, they figured the only thing the Shivans, if they reappeared at all, could throw at them is a bunch of Demons and maybe another Lucifer, and it could definitely eliminate the former (we've all seen how fast a disabled C. got rid of a Ravana).

As far as I can tell, the C. was designed to be a Lucy killer. Another Lucy would definitely be the highest on the list of things to develop weapons against and they were not expecting to ever encounter a ship just as big and more deadly than the C... Much less 80 of 'em.

That's how Capships in FS work. They're meant to rapidly dispatch ships of classes below them. When put up against a ship of equal power, it's typically a pretty even match and is swayed by the presence of other ships like fighters, bombers, and cruisers. The only thing is that the C. has no equal. Even though everything else falls below, the Sathanas outclasses it and was only destroyed by the C. because of extensive preparation by the GTVA (Read: Blowing off the thing's guns long before it ever saw the C.).
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mefustae on July 09, 2005, 09:12:48 pm
Quote
Originally posted by knn
Actually, that was because you get the same debriefing wether or not the Colossus is damaged. If you do destroy all  4 beam cannons, you get the good job debriefing - even if the C survived with 1% hull. However, if the C destroyes the Sathi before you take out all the beams, you get stg like "had you completed your objectives, the C would've sustained less damage". This is quite strange, but I guess [V] made Bearbeiting so hard so that you can`t destroy all beams and the C suffers damage. Then the C`s comm officer`s shouting makes much more sense ("were giving it all we`ve got" etc.), and the mission is more interesting (since you have to destroy two or one more beams while enemy fighters are attacking you). If you do destroy the beams, you still get the medal, even if you failed to complete Bearbeiting perfectly


Okay, who here hasn't completed Bearbaiting perfectly, c'mon, own up to it...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on July 09, 2005, 09:51:13 pm
:nervous:

I don't think I've ever gotten the flak turrets and all the beams.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 09, 2005, 10:31:59 pm
The first time I played FS2 i didn`t get all the turrets, I just thought it wasn`t worth it, but later I did it
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Fenrir on July 09, 2005, 11:54:29 pm
I haven't. I'm on that mission right now, so I suppose I could try.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kosh on July 10, 2005, 01:10:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by knn



BTW, that cb was clearly referring to the hull: it will take several monts "to fully repair the warships hull"



I usually can take out all 4 beam turrets, just not the flak guns and the beams.



I was referring to the CB. I don't recall it saying that in the debriefing.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: BlueFlames on July 10, 2005, 01:47:08 am
On my most recent pass through Bearbaiting, I destroyed all four beams and was lining up for my first pass against the flak battery.  I think I had just locked my Trebuchets when the Sathanas jumped.  My average run has me taking out three beams and starting in on the last one before I have to get clear or get run over.  The real trick seems to be knowing when to call for the supply ship and when to actually stop for it.  I've not got the timing established yet, but I'm starting to believe it could be possible to knock out all four beams and the flak battery.

Of course, that's entirely off-topic...  I seem to recall another one of these threads from a couple years back.  Several other posts have established what the Colossus was and was not designed to fight, but I must add that the Colossus was designed to fight in a particular way.  Like the Orion, the Colossus has the most threatening field of fire to the sides of the ship.  As with older naval warships, it is designed to fire enormous salvos from its broadside into its target.  End-on, it has very little stopping power, but if it 'crosses the T,' that is, turning perpendicularly across the path of a line of hostile ships (with similar turret configurations; I'm not talking Sathanases here), the smoke from the first ship won't have cleared before the last ship in the line is dead.

The Sathanas really is a special case.  Given the out-of-the-box ships, the Sathanas is the only ship with the BFRed beam (christ, it'd be nice if we didn't have to pull names from the table file for beam cannons), and it has FOUR of them essentially sharing one firing arc.  Really, if you use a head-on confrontation with a Sathanas as your measuring stick for a capital ship's quality, something tells me that even the Sathanas will suck.  It's just an absurd metric.

Actually, now I'm curious to see exactly how long it takes one Sathanas to kill another, but that's not something to test at 2:40am.  I'll crack open FRED tomorrow afternoon and give it a twirl.  I've got a feeling that placing two ships and orienting them to face each other will take longer than the killing.

[edit]Tested the Sathanas against itself earlier today.  Over several trials, one Sathanas cannot stand against another for much more than a minute.[/edit]
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on July 10, 2005, 03:50:34 am
Quote
The Sathanas inflicted moderate damage against the Colossus, though its systems remain 80% operational. Terran and Vasudan engineers anticipate it will take several months to fully repair the warship's hull.


Of course they could be refering to repairing the hull after they have to open it up to stick the new beam cannons in :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on July 10, 2005, 04:06:29 am
In my FREDded scenario, the Colossus wouldn't have even blown its heat sinks, because it had the default armaments.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 10, 2005, 04:17:21 pm
It's funny how the colossus doesnt actualy have a fighterbay.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Goober5000 on July 10, 2005, 04:30:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
It's funny how the colossus doesnt actualy have a fighterbay.
It has one... :confused:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 10, 2005, 04:34:09 pm
Look at the model...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on July 10, 2005, 05:33:21 pm
It has one
A wing was deployed from it in the Their Finest Hour mission.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 10, 2005, 05:54:14 pm
there is no modeled fighterbay, just an area outside the ship called "fighterbay" where fighters magicaly spawn.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 10, 2005, 06:03:36 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
there is no modeled fighterbay, just an area outside the ship called "fighterbay" where fighters magicaly spawn.


There`s a large triangular hole in it, that`s the fighterbay, but you can`t see it, because it`s all covered in lights texture like the hull around it. Switch to wireframe view
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on July 10, 2005, 07:55:43 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Colossus is surprisingly fast for something its size: 25 m/s, which means that in Real Life™ it can outrun any destroyer in FS, and hold even, at minimum, with most cruisers. It is also surprisingly quick to manuver (baseball bat effect, anyone?). This casts doubt on the likelyhood of being able to effectively approach from an angle it cannot engage you at.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on July 10, 2005, 07:57:06 pm
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 10, 2005, 08:01:35 pm
:lol:

BTW, that belongs into the Tribute - MS Paint The FS Moments thread, even if it`s not paint
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Goober5000 on July 10, 2005, 08:18:34 pm
:lol:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: EtherShock on July 10, 2005, 08:34:38 pm
:lol:

You cheated! That's photoshopped.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on July 10, 2005, 08:40:48 pm
Am I the only person to have never seen the baseball bat effect with the Colossus? Jesus.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 10, 2005, 09:10:05 pm
Play the mission after bearbaiting, where the colossus engages the sathanas, and watch in awe as a 6km long object with the density of water swings out with excentric acceleration.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Fenrir on July 10, 2005, 09:43:28 pm
I've had it nearly hit me, but I've never seen it smack the Sath... that's happened to people?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 10, 2005, 09:52:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fenrir
I've had it nearly hit me, but I've never seen it smack the Sath... that's happened to people?


That was supposed to be a joke
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on July 10, 2005, 10:24:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
Play the mission after bearbaiting, where the colossus engages the sathanas, and watch in awe as a 6km long object with the density of water swings out with excentric acceleration.


Um... I did that earlier today. Not only is the big C not ordered to shoot the Sath for some odd reason(is there a fix for this, or should I extract the mission and reorder the C to do so and then put it back in the VP?), but no, it doesn't swing around at all.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on July 11, 2005, 04:29:13 am
You must have told your fighters to ignore the Sathanas.  This makes every friendly ship ignore your target.  Even ships you have no control over.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on July 11, 2005, 04:51:29 am
I just fixed that in CVS.

At least, I assume it was a bug.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on July 11, 2005, 07:31:50 am
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
there is no modeled fighterbay, just an area outside the ship called "fighterbay" where fighters magicaly spawn.


That's a fighterbay, technically. :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on July 11, 2005, 12:11:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I just fixed that in CVS.

At least, I assume it was a bug.


Wait? You just fixed the thing when every ship ignores the target you order you wingmans to ignore???


YAAAAEEE!!! Oh..wait...amy we should have anoter command..
6 for Ignore (wing)  and SHIFT-6 for ignore (all)
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 11, 2005, 12:49:11 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


Wait? You just fixed the thing when every ship ignores the target you order you wingmans to ignore???


YAAAAEEE!!! Oh..wait...amy we should have anoter command..
6 for Ignore (wing)  and SHIFT-6 for ignore (all)


He fixed the bug when ships other than your wingmen ignore the target. They should not ignore the target as you cannot order them to ignore the target (i.e. you cannot tell the Colossus to stop firing at the Sathanas). Just like in vanilla FS2
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on July 11, 2005, 02:01:57 pm
Well, where do I get that fix? It's bothersome, because I want to see beams.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 11, 2005, 02:11:06 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
Well, where do I get that fix? It's bothersome, because I want to see beams.


Guess you should check out the latest build
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on July 11, 2005, 02:39:40 pm
I'm using taylors 06022005 or whatever it is build.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 11, 2005, 02:57:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I just fixed that in CVS.

At least, I assume it was a bug.


Whoops, he said CVS, Guess you`ll have to wait for the next build, or download and compile FS2
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on July 11, 2005, 04:35:33 pm
Meh..I'm waiting for 3.7!!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 11, 2005, 04:42:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Meh..I'm waiting for 3.7!!


I`m waiting for 4.0 :)
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Krackers87 on July 12, 2005, 01:49:11 am
Im waiting for bump mapping, volumetrics and better quality animations.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 12, 2005, 03:10:07 am
I'm waiting for freespace 3




*runs*
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Prophet on July 12, 2005, 04:13:05 am
How dears he! FireCrack must be banned! :mad2:

*Prophet sends out his priests to hunt down the heretic*
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on July 12, 2005, 04:38:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Meh..I'm waiting for 3.7!!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on July 12, 2005, 04:51:29 am
Waiting to do what?

Next release is 3.6.7. You could be waiting a long time :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on July 12, 2005, 07:13:48 am
What about 3.6.6.2.1?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on July 12, 2005, 07:16:17 am
Ups...ment 3.6.7.

When is it do anyway?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Carl on July 12, 2005, 08:17:18 am
speaking of the baseball bat effect, are they gonna correct the off center axis of the Collosus in the SCP, or is that going too far down the slippery slope of gameplay changes?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 12, 2005, 08:50:07 am
This has been discussed before.

The answer is no.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Boomer on July 12, 2005, 11:10:41 am
Whoa, wait.

Why do the SCP guys have to do that?  All it requires is some tinkering in the POF file.  You can do it with the PCS or Modelview.  I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with anything hard coded.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 12, 2005, 11:36:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by Boomer
Whoa, wait.

Why do the SCP guys have to do that?  All it requires is some tinkering in the POF file.  You can do it with the PCS or Modelview.  I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with anything hard coded.


Yes, but it won`t get into the Media vps, that`s what Carl and ngtm1r were talking about
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Goober5000 on July 12, 2005, 03:28:19 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
This has been discussed before.

The answer is no.
Actually, it has been discussed before and the answer is yes.  At least as far as warping out is concerned.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: SuperCoolAl on July 12, 2005, 05:24:36 pm
I've beaten Bearbaiting with all 4 guns destroyed. The trick is to call in support at the beginning so it will follow you around and you won't have long to wait before rearm. You have to get clear shots on every gun aswell (i.e. takes out in one shot not down to 13% or whatever). Never destroyed flak aswell though.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on July 12, 2005, 05:36:13 pm
Someone (EDIT: Goober) once posted a screenshot of the objectives page that you get by pressing F4, and he had knocked out all the beams, all the Flak, and even got the LRed on the back end of the Sathanas.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: SuperCoolAl on July 12, 2005, 05:58:05 pm
he could have cheated
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 12, 2005, 06:02:26 pm
The rear sathanas turret is poorly armoured, very poorly armoured.


It's entirely possible.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Goober5000 on July 12, 2005, 07:44:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld
Someone (Grimloq?) once posted a screenshot of the objectives page that you get by pressing F4, and he had knocked out all the beams, all the Flak, and even got the LRed on the back end of the Sathanas.
That was me.  On Medium, without cheating:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,26697.0.html

Since then I've managed to accomplish the same thing on Insane except without getting the bonus beam cannon or saving the Thebes. :)
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on July 12, 2005, 08:10:44 pm
Jesus.

By the way: I went back and did High Noon without ordering my wingmen to ignore the Sath...(they got wasted, if you were wondering.)

1. I noticed how quickly the C swings around to bring its turrets to bear, but it's not as quick as you guys describe.
2. I can't believe you guys hate the Colossus so much. What is wrong with you? 4 or 5 beam cannons going off at once, pummeling the Sathanas into oblivion. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. It's so beautiful.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on July 12, 2005, 08:58:14 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
Jesus.

By the way: I went back and did High Noon without ordering my wingmen to ignore the Sath...(they got wasted, if you were wondering.)

1. I noticed how quickly the C swings around to bring its turrets to bear, but it's not as quick as you guys describe.
2. I can't believe you guys hate the Colossus so much. What is wrong with you? 4 or 5 beam cannons going off at once, pummeling the Sathanas into oblivion. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. It's so beautiful.


I don`t hate the C. It`s one of my favourite ships and I like the cutscene too. I like beamfest ships

BTW, you should order each wingman to attack one turret, then take out one yourself, then proceed to help your dumb wingmen. They do deliver at least one bomb. You should leave the others do their job, Delta (IIRC that`s the squadron given the objective to take out the flaks) does it`s job sometimes, but you`ll have to help most of the time
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 12, 2005, 09:09:38 pm
Delta always plows right into the sath, and get pushed along by it all the while spraying acheton madly.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Cobra on July 12, 2005, 09:40:45 pm
eh, the only thing that was wrong with it was it was that it was 75% vasudan. :nervous: *runs away from raa*

Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
That was me.  On Medium, without cheating:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,26697.0.html

Since then I've managed to accomplish the same thing on Insane except without getting the bonus beam cannon or saving the Thebes. :)


pfff. that's easy. :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Goober5000 on July 12, 2005, 10:13:39 pm
:blah:

*bans Cobra*
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: BlackDove on July 12, 2005, 10:31:24 pm
Did all except the rear cannon.

Totally forgot that it was there, never tried.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: EtherShock on July 12, 2005, 10:38:21 pm
I can never get in position in time to get the rear cannon.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Taristin on July 12, 2005, 11:53:36 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
:blah:

*bans Cobra*


*falls on the floor laughing*
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: deep_eyes on July 13, 2005, 12:26:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Nothing quite screams "You're DOOOMED!" like a battleship, though.

The Colossus single-handedly destroyed the NTF as a military force, doing in weeks what would have taken multiple destroyers months. The NTF had a lot of practice at node blockades, and threw back multi-battlegroup attempts to breach them repeatedly. They could not stop the Colossus. Sometimes you can get away with a bunch of smaller ships, but sometimes they just die too fast when exposed to heavy fire one at a time.


i agree with the DOOMED part.

however the colossus was moreso like a political  statement... on joint terran vasudan coporation for the good of the alliance.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Duelron1001 on July 13, 2005, 02:58:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
:blah:

*bans Cobra*


*/me joins Raa laughing on the floor*
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on July 13, 2005, 03:39:31 am
Did he insult you so much, Goober? You don't know how a professional player he is unless you have played a multiplayer face-to-face melee with him. There is a probability that completing Bearbaiting perfectly is easy for him.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on July 13, 2005, 05:27:14 am
After playing multiplayer with him, I can confirm that Cobra could not possibly complete BearBaiting perfectly.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on July 13, 2005, 05:28:23 am
Still doesn't deserve a ban, In my opinion
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Taristin on July 13, 2005, 07:20:15 am
He wasn't banned, TopAce. It's called humour.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on July 13, 2005, 08:15:51 am
Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
Did he insult you so much, Goober? You don't know how a professional player he is unless you have played a multiplayer face-to-face melee with him. There is a probability that completing Bearbaiting perfectly is easy for him.


That's not the point. The thing is, he's bragged about this in the past, and while his skill is all good and well, he doesn't need to put others down in regards to it. :doubt:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Goober5000 on July 13, 2005, 02:28:51 pm
More generally, he has an annoying tendency to jump into the middle of discussions about missions or FRED or contests or whatever, and say "Pfft, that's easy!" or "I've done that!" or "You guys are slow, I did that years ago." when it's quite clear that either a) he hasn't done it (more likely); or b) he has no desire to show us.  That's trolling.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kosh on July 14, 2005, 01:28:59 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
Jesus.

By the way: I went back and did High Noon without ordering my wingmen to ignore the Sath...(they got wasted, if you were wondering.)

1. I noticed how quickly the C swings around to bring its turrets to bear, but it's not as quick as you guys describe.
2. I can't believe you guys hate the Colossus so much. What is wrong with you? 4 or 5 beam cannons going off at once, pummeling the Sathanas into oblivion. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. It's so beautiful.



It took the Collossus 15 minutes to take out that Sathanas. The Sathanas could obliterate the Collossus in less than 1 minute. Which one do you think is stronger?


And the Collossus was ugly. It looked like a giant baseball bat in space.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on July 14, 2005, 01:33:58 am
That doesn't mean it sucks. Besides, Shivan things have always, on average, been more powerful than their Terran and Vasudan counterparts. Particularly when it comes to weaponry. Besides, I was commenting on the beauty of 4 or 5 green beams going off at the same time. Yes, beauty, because it's a giant shotgun shaped thing spewing energy all over the place. That's awesome.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 14, 2005, 02:01:48 am
The colossus looks like a baseball bat?


Jeez kosh, what kinda discount baseball do you play?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: StratComm on July 14, 2005, 12:22:10 pm
FireCrack, have you ever actually seen the big C trying to turn?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: BlueFlames on July 14, 2005, 12:53:47 pm
Moreover, have you ever been hit by the Colossus when it was trying to turn?  Just take your hand off the throttle and you go for one heck of a ride.  Well...  You go for one heck of a ride, or your hull integrity is too low to survive the initial impact, and you go for one very short ride.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 14, 2005, 01:37:13 pm
I've seen it turn. I still don't get how it looks like a baseball bat.

My thought was pistol-whipping someone with an SMG...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on July 14, 2005, 02:18:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
The colossus looks like a baseball bat?


Jeez kosh, what kinda discount baseball do you play?


There are two reasons you call the Colossus a baseball club:
1/ The model's centre is not located in the centre of the ship, it's in the engines. (Basically, just where it is ideal to grab a real baseball club :)).
2/ The notorious manoeuvre in High Noon.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on July 14, 2005, 02:39:32 pm
Yes but none of those actually make it look like a baseball bat, it merely acts like one.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TopAce on July 14, 2005, 03:31:31 pm
I wonder, how many things does the Colossus make you remember: One said it was a water-pistol, the other says it's a baseball bat, someone else mentioned it a a wireless drill(or something like that).
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on July 14, 2005, 03:36:10 pm
A giant heap of ****e.

but not in visual terms
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on July 14, 2005, 04:05:55 pm
How about an Assault Rifle?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on July 14, 2005, 04:33:57 pm
Someone actually suggested that Axem use the Big C as a ray gun on GTVA Man...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on July 14, 2005, 05:05:48 pm
It would have looked better than the hades, that's for sure!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Taristin on July 14, 2005, 05:45:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by nuclear1
Someone actually suggested that Axem use the Big C as a ray gun on GTVA Man...


T'was my suggestion... :nervous:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on July 14, 2005, 08:00:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
The colossus  looks  like a baseball bat?


Jeez kosh, what kinda discount baseball do you play?



Repsted and edited for clarity.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Support 1 on September 23, 2005, 08:14:59 pm
The only thing we saw in the campaign the Colossus did was tear up a Deimos (which any old Orion could do), collide with an Orion, and take 15 minutes to destroy a crippled Sathanas.

We never saw what the Colossus was really supposed to do -  take on as many small ships as possible. It wasn't really supposed to take on big ships such as Sathani.

I've actually created a mission pitting the Colossus against five Orions, and the Colossus owned! I also put it against a modified Hecate, and a Hatshepsut, a Typhon, a Ravana and a Demon (all at once) and the Colossus swatted those five too (and yes, the Shivan ships were facing the Colossus so their beams could fire).

In both cases, the Colossus was completely standard. None of that "firepower mode" throwing away the small beams in favor of BF/LRBGreen stuff.

I did the same thing to the Sathanas, and the Sath blew up with minimal damage to the destroyers, unless one of them is unlucky enough to stray out in front. The Sathanas could kill a dozen Colossuses in front in ten minutes, but it couldn't swat a bunch of flies swarming around it. Then again, the Sathanas was a perfect display of Shivan tactics. I.e. jump in, destroy something really big, jump out. The Ravana could do that to any other destroyer, and the Sathanas could do it with a Colossus.

Another flaw in the standard Colossus is that the beams had a very short range. With a 4000 meter range, the beams couldn't even fire at a ship that was at the opposite side (the Colossus is 6KM long, remember).

It's a shame we were never able to see the Colossus blowing up that NTF battlegroup.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Ghost on September 23, 2005, 08:51:17 pm
I sure do love beating this dead horse!
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: CP5670 on September 23, 2005, 11:01:45 pm
eh...where did this comes from?

Must have been one of the threads while I was absent.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on September 24, 2005, 01:59:21 am
Nope, check the dates...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Galemp on September 24, 2005, 02:13:31 am
Didn't we institute a warning system to stop n00bs from dredging up old threads like this one? Oh well.

I just reread the first post... Hi-poly Colossus? Wha? Where? ;7
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: CP5670 on September 24, 2005, 02:34:50 am
Quote
Nope, check the dates...


yeah, it's definitely a thread from a period when I wasn't around. I've seen this topic come up many times over the years, but this seems to be the definitive collection of opinions on it. :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: MrBig101 on September 24, 2005, 02:02:03 pm
Well, while the thread is bumped, has anyone made a mission where the colossus demolishes an entire fleet in all it's glory?  You know, the kind you make in 5 minutes?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: BlackDove on September 24, 2005, 02:06:07 pm
No, but there was a good "Merry Christmas" mission, where five meson bombs detonate and destroy a Colossus.

That's its best use really.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on September 24, 2005, 02:09:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by MrBig101
Well, while the thread is bumped, has anyone made a mission where the colossus demolishes an entire fleet in all it's glory? You know, the kind you make in 5 minutes?



Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld
I just FREDded a mission with a Hecate, an Orion, a Hatshepsut, a Typhon, and a Ravana against a Colossus with no fighters involved.

After about 10 Minutes all that remained was the Colossus and a Large Debris field.

This shows that the Colossus is excellent at what it is designed to do.


Unfortunately I deleted the mission after I played it.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Hudson on September 24, 2005, 03:31:22 pm
I think the big c is more of a pychological weapon, one for both sides. One the allied side it raised morale and tightened the GTVA alliance. On the NTF side it demoralized, and destroyed. I kinda think the Big C was designed more to win the war against the NTF and destroy the "smaller" shvian destroyers. In a way the Big C was a sucess, though  it was destroyed before it could prove itself ;P
and maybe you could make another one ? XD

*edit its people like me that should be kicked in the head :P I read only the first page and now I look dumb =( *
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: ZmaN on September 24, 2005, 09:29:00 pm
I like the colossus.... Its my favorite ship....  it does have a ton of firepower, and besides, yea the GTVA never thought that they would have to battle 80 Sathanas's, and well if they did, they would have constucted multiple C's, and well, that would wipe out the Sathanas's.  Think about this:  If theres a GTVA Orion (or suttin like that), and a Sathanas, and you have a colossus jump in BEHIND the sathanas, its done!!!!  The Sathanas has a major weakness;  that is all the beam turrets (the primary ones, not the anti-fighter beam turrets) are in the front, so if the colossus jumps in behind it, the sathanas is history!!!  (then again, a ship MAYBE a little smaller could do the job too)...   Maybe Ill try to FRED a mikssion like that, and well see the outcome.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on September 24, 2005, 11:06:04 pm
I'm honestly sure that the Shivans aren't aimless or careless enough to just allow the Colossus to sit behind a Sathanas and slowly (very slowly) tear it to shreds. The Shivans have 80+ Juggernauts, and during the time that it takes for the Colossus to destroy one, more could be sent in to destroy the Colossus and not be vulnerable.

The Colossus met its match with the Sathanas. Against the NTF, it performed magnificently, because:

A) Humans have morale that can be destroyed by the knowledge or even threat of a massive weapon or ship. Read up on the Cold War if you don't believe me.

B) The GTVA knew how Terran ships are constructed, and thus was able to design the Colossus and modify its beams to successfully destroy NTF fleets once the rebellion had begun. Why do you think the Colossus kept reporting reactor meltdowns when it had to overload its beam cannons against the Sathanas? The Colossus's ordinary beams were more than enough to destroy large Terran capital ships. Shivan ships were a little less understood.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on September 25, 2005, 02:31:11 am
Bah, apples and oranges. Or a more apt analogy, shotguns and sniper rifles.

The Colossus was meant to jump into the middle of an enemy fleet and obliterate it, yes, yes, we've established that. A dozen times, probably.

More specifically it was meant for situations like the one in Freespace 1, where you fly the captured Dragon. In that situation, the Colossus could probably have wiped out every Shivan vessel in the area without sustaining too much damage, even with beams.

Note that it could've also taken advantage of the Lucifer's forward-facing weapons with its massive broadside armanment.

It didn't work well in Freespace 2 because the enemy vessels changed. Specifically, the Sathanas was introduced. Rather than being a general purpose vessel like most Shivan vessels, the Sathanas is a specific tool. It's configured to shoot forward at big, slow things. The Colossus is a big, slow thing.

Thus, the Sathanas was perfectly configured to take advantage of the Colossus' weakness, while the Colossus' weakness (spread-out rather than concentrated firepower) was perfectly suited to make it ineffective against the Sathanas.

I believe the point Volition was trying to make is that Command was trying to fight the last battle - they were using tactics/strategies they'd learned to be effective in the last war against the Shivans, rather than coming up with new ones.

Consider the difference in weapons and ship assignments in Freespace 1 and 2. In Freespace 1, weapons and ships are invented out of desperation. In Freespace 2, weapons and ships are pretty static; you're simply given access to them.

Meanwhile, the GTVA is getting totally reemed. The only person trying something new and coming up with new technology is Bosch.

It's basically the exact opposite of FS1.


But I digress, by a rather huge amount. :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on September 25, 2005, 05:16:53 am
Quote
Originally posted by ZmaN
I like the colossus.... Its my favorite ship....  it does have a ton of firepower, and besides, yea the GTVA never thought that they would have to battle 80 Sathanas's, and well if they did, they would have constucted multiple C's, and well, that would wipe out the Sathanas's.  Think about this:  If theres a GTVA Orion (or suttin like that), and a Sathanas, and you have a colossus jump in BEHIND the sathanas, its done!!!!  The Sathanas has a major weakness;  that is all the beam turrets (the primary ones, not the anti-fighter beam turrets) are in the front, so if the colossus jumps in behind it, the sathanas is history!!!  (then again, a ship MAYBE a little smaller could do the job too)...   Maybe Ill try to FRED a mikssion like that, and well see the outcome.


No, because this is how it goes, even if there was only one Sathanas:

*Colossus jumps in behind Sathanas and begins firing beams*
*Sathanas' Hull Integrity is at 97%*
*Sathanas Jumps out*
Colossus: :wtf: Command, the Sathanas has left the area.
*Sathanas exits subspace with the Colossus right in front of it.*
Colossus: ****.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on September 25, 2005, 10:10:08 am
There are no tactical short jumps in Fs as I recall....

but anyway, there is one huge difference. If a Sath jumps in in a perfect fire position against the Colossuss, it will obliderate it, but  Collie will fight back and do some damage.

On the other hand, if the Collie jumps in a perfect fire position against the Sath, the sath is doomed and it will do little to no damage in return.

Point is that practilcly any terrna ship can be used effectivly against a sath, but no shivan ship (save hte Sath) could be used against the Colossuss.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on September 25, 2005, 10:33:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
There are no tactical short jumps in Fs as I recall....


That's because they're only useful if you're ambushed.  In open combat, if you nano-jump, your opponent can nano-jump as well. However, if your opponent has just jumped in, you can jump out before they get the chance to warm up their jump drive.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: CP5670 on September 25, 2005, 10:35:51 am
Has anyone ever tried attacking a hostile Colossus? This thread has basically centered around its anti-capital ship abilities, but it would be interesting to know how well it does against fighters. The Sathanas isn't all that great against fighters, relatively speaking. None of the Shivan ships are, for that matter.

Quote
There are no tactical short jumps in Fs as I recall....


It sort of happens at the point where the Colossus gets destroyed. The SJD Sathanas 17 jumps out a few seconds before the SJ Sathanas comes out close to the Colossus, so it's a fair bet that they are supposed to be the same ship.

You know, the last time I played that mission, I fired a few pot shots at the Colossus hoping that I would get the kill since the rest of the damage is all done by beams. :D Unfortunately it doesn't award you kills for friendly ships like that. :(
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: BlueFlames on September 25, 2005, 12:50:55 pm
Since you've obviously extracted the mission to look at it in FRED2, you could always add and event to change the Colossus' IFF as its hull integrity drops.  ;)  Set its IFF to neutral, and tick the 'all teams at war' box, and the Sathanas should finish it off, while you whore all the points.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on September 25, 2005, 01:26:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
It sort of happens at the point where the Colossus gets destroyed. The SJD Sathanas 17 jumps out a few seconds before the SJ Sathanas comes out close to the Colossus, so it's a fair bet that they are supposed to be the same ship.


I don't think that can be counted as a tactical jump as the two ships are 115km apart measuring in FRED and are probably actually further away in terms of actual distance seeing as how the Saths are described as having taken up position surrounding Capella it's doubtful that they would actually be that close to the Colossus.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on September 28, 2005, 04:36:27 pm
Damn collie doesn't fire at all.. Is it set to Play Dead when the Sath arrives or something? Or is it just the short range of it's beams?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on September 28, 2005, 05:42:39 pm
I think it is. The captain said that he was trying to hold off the Sathanas until the Bastion got through to the node, and I'm guessing playing possum does just that.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on September 28, 2005, 05:45:08 pm
the best reason to love the collie...

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,32591.0.html


How's that goiong Karma?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: psycho_fergo on October 09, 2005, 08:18:12 am
hmm, the C is good, but i really do wish that someone would make a campaign about the C's opperations. you know, a different perspective as a pilot based on the C

PLEAAAAAAASe someone do this, it would be awesome

also about the bearbating mission, i have finnished that with all objectives done (all 4 beams, flacks and bonouse rear beam) and also..just to rub it in, i did it on insane ;) it took me maybe 8 times to do it, but i did. its hard, but after a while you kind get used to it. plus i took some pointers of how i think goob did it. i think it was him who did the in game video of him doing it on medium.

i would do an ingame video to show u all, but i dunno something.. does it slow down ur computer at all? because i get slow FPS normally...ive got a pretty crappy computer..

the trick is to start with the closest turret, then after u take out the 2nd, do the flack, then order your wingmates to take out the rear beam
then take out the other 2 beams

if you have time, which sometimes you do, go for the rear beam yourself because your wingmates are quite dumb

anyway..thats all ive got to say...

p.s. ive finnished the game many times on insane. after about 10 times, you kinda get used to it. i find medium a little harder, because the enemy use a different tactic/wepons thingo on you and im so used to going crazy on insane, i dont know how to cope...

insane admeral psycho, signing off
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on October 09, 2005, 09:10:38 am
Quote
Originally posted by psycho_fergo
hmm, the C is good, but i really do wish that someone would make a campaign about the C's opperations. you know, a different perspective as a pilot based on the C

PLEAAAAAAASe someone do this, it would be awesome


I've been toying with the idea for some time actually. I keep trying to convince other people but no one seems interested. Maybe once Seeds Of Rebellion is done :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mongoose on October 09, 2005, 12:36:44 pm
*raises hand wildly in a violent display of interest* :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 09, 2005, 12:46:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by psycho_fergo
hmm, the C is good, but i really do wish that someone would make a campaign about the C's opperations. you know, a different perspective as a pilot based on the C


I imagine it'd be a lot of staring at a hangar bay door.

"No!! Nobody gets to attack the Sathanas except Alpha wing!!"

"Sorry, we're only going to be deploying 2 of you 60 fighter wings to defend the Knossos"

"Oops, the hangar bay door controls are jammed again. No reason to be alarm-wait, what the hell is that? Oh my God! It's another Sathanas! We're all going to die! Oh, is this thing still-?"

That being said it would be interesting if you could find an excuse to have the player not sit in the Collie for 90% of the time. :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on October 09, 2005, 01:01:08 pm
The entire NTF arse-kicking is never seen in-game as the player is busy elsewhere. Seeing as how the Colossus and it's battlegroup singlehandedly defeated the entire NTF I think that there's lots of scope for a bunch of strike missions with some big exploding capships :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on October 09, 2005, 04:09:35 pm
I'll prolly put a Collie mission or two in my campaign...

Some NTF as kicikng..maby some shivan ass kicking..

that said, it is never specificly mentioned that hte Collie destroyed only one sath, yes?
I mena, the sthanases were going around he sun while hte lesser sivan hips fought - that is implied.

It could be a stretch if I make it fight another sath..

EDIT: If a cille jumps in beside a sath, it's still dead. by matching it's speed and heading it makes it impossible for hte Sath to turn around..

I tested a few missions like that with tow orions chasing after the sath and a collie chasing after the sath - sath allways get's roasted :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Fenrir on October 09, 2005, 04:27:33 pm
It would be a huge stretch, considering all the evidence against it. And I doubt I'm not the only one tired of "It wasn't specifically stated not to  have happened, therefore it did happen!!1!" After all, it was never specifically stated that Command, in fact, did not have a gargantuan Bosch Beer party with the Shivans and the destruction of Capella was a mere accident caused by a drunken Shivan hitting the wrong button.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on October 09, 2005, 04:40:45 pm
But don't you think Command would've mentioned at least a little something about the Colossus attacking another Sath, a situation which previously involved two whole sorties over?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Sandwich on October 09, 2005, 04:45:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
The entire NTF arse-kicking is never seen in-game as the player is busy elsewhere. Seeing as how the Colossus and it's battlegroup singlehandedly defeated the entire NTF I think that there's lots of scope for a bunch of strike missions with some big exploding capships :D


Gah!

Come... *smack* ...join... *smack* ...the FSU! *wet trout smack* :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on October 09, 2005, 05:20:36 pm
You're right..It will strictly be Demon and Ravana kicking during the Capealla engagements :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mongoose on October 09, 2005, 06:31:06 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fenrir
It would be a huge stretch, considering all the evidence against it. And I doubt I'm not the only one tired of "It wasn't specifically stated not to  have happened, therefore it did happen!!1!" After all, it was never specifically stated that Command, in fact, did not have a gargantuan Bosch Beer party with the Shivans and the destruction of Capella was a mere accident caused by a drunken Shivan hitting the wrong button.

Do I smell DEM II? :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Galemp on October 09, 2005, 07:02:24 pm
n00b! There will be no DEMII! If it's not by Goob, it's not DEMII! If one more n00b comes in here asking about DEMII I'm going to kill them! Read the FAQs!! :mad:

get it?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Mongoose on October 09, 2005, 07:29:14 pm
:lol:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Sandwich on October 10, 2005, 02:46:53 am
Err.... DEMII??
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on October 10, 2005, 03:07:33 am
Deus Ex Machina II. The sequal to Goober's joke campaign.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Sandwich on October 10, 2005, 06:53:00 am
I never did play DEM...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: SuperCoolAl on October 10, 2005, 09:31:55 am
You must. Right now.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Gregster2k on October 10, 2005, 12:00:54 pm
...I consider Axem's JAD (Just Another Day) Special Edition to be presently filling the void of "DEM sequel."

---

Remember the GTD Hades class super destroyer was effectively an attempt to make a Terran equivalent of the Lucifer class. What if the Hades had been *captured* instead of destroyed at the end of Silent Threat?

Had the GTD Hades class gone into mass production along with the GTCv Deimos, GVD Hatshepsut, and GTD Hecate classes, then the Big C might have stood a MUCH better chance in that battle.

Has anyone here tried escorting the Big C with fully armed Hades class destroyers and seeing what happens to a Sathanas without Alpha 1's intervention?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Galemp on October 10, 2005, 02:17:31 pm
Depends on what tables you're using. :p
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Sandwich on October 10, 2005, 05:52:40 pm
...periodic table of the elements...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on October 10, 2005, 06:40:50 pm
I just played teh Collie vs. Sath mission...and the Collie waxed the sath in record time without taking a single hit (the sath didn't come close enough to fire it's only remeinning beam cannon (got 3 of them before).

The strange thing is - in my tbl the collie is set ot have all 12 BGreens (alltough the weapons setup in the mission should override that)...
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: aldo_14 on October 10, 2005, 06:44:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Gregster2k
...I consider Axem's JAD (Just Another Day) Special Edition to be presently filling the void of "DEM sequel."

---

Remember the GTD Hades class super destroyer was effectively an attempt to make a Terran equivalent of the Lucifer class. What if the Hades had been *captured* instead of destroyed at the end of Silent Threat?

Had the GTD Hades class gone into mass production along with the GTCv Deimos, GVD Hatshepsut, and GTD Hecate classes, then the Big C might have stood a MUCH better chance in that battle.

Has anyone here tried escorting the Big C with fully armed Hades class destroyers and seeing what happens to a Sathanas without Alpha 1's intervention?


There might not have been enough materials to mass-manufacture the Hades; if it was using any form of recovered Shivan tech, for example, they'd be stuffed.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Nuclear1 on October 10, 2005, 06:47:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I never did play DEM...


Quote
...periodic table of the elements...


*wet trout smack* :D

I have actually tried pitting a Hades versus a Sathanas--suffice it to say, the Hades didn't last very long. I would assume that unless the Hades escorts are targeting the Sath's beams, then the escort would go down rather quickly.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 10, 2005, 07:53:12 pm
JAD...was that the one with disco inferno? I liked that one. Made me screw with time compression to see if it would still sync.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Axem on October 10, 2005, 08:01:42 pm
Yup, that's the one. How bad did it get? I tried my best to get it to be a whole number of seconds but it never really worked out. There would always be some delay within the mission from other things while the music kept on going by itself.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 10, 2005, 08:22:08 pm
Actually it worked out really well. :nervous:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on October 11, 2005, 03:55:49 pm
I just made that mission I was talking about..

the Collie pawns those shivan destroyers good and fast! :D
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: bob-sama on October 12, 2005, 12:25:07 am
I would love to be in full combat with the colossus... it would totally own to match speed in the one area of the ship (on the interrior) that has guns... especially since they rarely go after the guns on a ship... its a great place to sit and let the Colossus get a hangover while you sit, wait, and hope she don't blow up! (that would be a fauking huge explosion... ur shields would go to like 0 and ud have like 1% hull... as well as totally disabled... that is a heck of a big ship
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Sandwich on October 12, 2005, 02:25:34 am
:nervous:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on October 12, 2005, 06:09:11 am
4 Demons, 4 Ravanas and 3 Cains pawned by the sucker (and they were coming in waves of approx 2-3 ships).

The Collie rulez.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Goober5000 on October 12, 2005, 12:23:56 pm
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
4 Demons, 4 Ravanas and 3 Cains pawned by the sucker
How much were they worth?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on October 12, 2005, 12:26:18 pm
^eh?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on October 12, 2005, 01:05:06 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
How much were they worth?


:wakka:
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on October 12, 2005, 01:28:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
How much were they worth?


:lol:

@FireCrack, Trashman said Pawned (Presumably meaning Pwned).  If you pawn something you sell it, i.e. Pawn Shops.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Osiri on October 19, 2005, 11:51:35 pm
I always thought of the collossus as a huge toy that children(High Command) was playing around with.  

It made sense to build the collossus but not to design it as they did.  

The Saths didn't make much sense either.  If just one of those big fu**ing beams had been on its back it would have been a much better weapon.

If nothing else they could have had the beam cannon power relays hooked up in such a way that they could alternate back and forth.  

It makes no sense to have the cheaper part of a weapon like that(the lense or whatever) be the only outlet for the expensive part of the ship(the huge generators).

Why not have a switch that shunts the power so that you could have 4 beams on the front but with 2 of those having the ability to be disabled and shunt the power to the assend of the ship...

I think it would be a much better use of the power grid.  

Under the current design the entire power grid would likely overload anyhow if the front outputs were disabled(bye bye ship).


MY PICTURE OF THE COLLI


A BORG CUBE.  Why.  

Modified to FS world of course.

You would have on each of the 6 sides redundant outputs.  

4-8 big guns and whatever flak and laser.

you would also have 3 engine outputs.

This is space all that matters for flight is mass not aerodynamics.

each of the 4-8 guns would be able to be deactivated and power from them shunted to another gun.  

Thus you with the current power model you can run 12 cannons simultaneously.  BUT only like 4 were up front and in the end it is extremely difficult to fire all of them at once you know.

Anyhow....
you could shunt all power to the side with a sath on it for the 8 cannons and the rest of the power could be devoted to sides with smaller targets such as ravanas or demons.  

how long can a Sath last against 8 of the 12 main beam cannons of the Collie all firing at once.

I also think the problem was cooling time for the emitters right.   This solution give you another option.  Turn the ship 90 degrees and you have completely cooled off beam cannons to fire from.


actually scratch the cube.

Make it a sphere with highly reflective skin.

The curved hull would reflect the fire and the ship could continuously turn and shunt power from one cannon to another and since the power generation was not the problem it would be able to fire almost constantly.

If nothing else make it a dodecahedron but with the same armaments and engine ports.  IF would be able to just spin and keep the guns firing.

Just a thought.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Galemp on October 20, 2005, 12:09:38 am
let it die
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Osiri on October 20, 2005, 12:19:57 am
? let it die ?
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on October 20, 2005, 12:37:59 am
A cube is a poor design, a wedge (like a star destroyer) is much better.
Title: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Osiri on October 20, 2005, 12:45:17 am
A uniform shape that has a uniform distance to any vital part is a good design in many ways.  

There is also an arguement that I would accept for placing heavier armor on one side of the ship.

The uniform armor allows for the ship to turn a badly damaged area away from the enemy.  This would allow the ship to survive longer.  You would not want your power generators in the butt end of a collossus far away from the guns at the front.  Nor do you want distributed power generators to the extent the collossus was designed.  This allowed for the blowing up of the grid in sequence.  

IMO it would be better to have a thicker skin around all of your generators with the ability to shunt power in any particular direction.

If one side has been fighting the sath and has taken damage while another side has been fighting a ravana and has almost no damage just rotate the ship which would be a much faster turn rate than any other capital ship could keep up with.  You now have presented the sath with a side that is almost undamaged that it has to eat through again.
Kinda like the current collies baseball bat of death act.

Plus I thought the sheer enormity of the Colly was a waste.

There was no reason to have it so spread out.  yes it allowed for hierarchical damage but that does not matter when (and this is the only explanation I have for FS destruction rules) only the forward section is damaged and the whole ship blows up due to the power grids failure overall in that section.

This essentially weakened the design by making it unable to fire with all beams at a nearby enemy.

I see one valid defense.

The collie was designed to be a behemoth.  It was never supposed to have to fight a Sath.

The biggest target it was to fight was the Lucifer.

The distribution of guns across its huge body was to allow it to engage multiple destroyer class ships at once.

This does not work so well when it is a behemoth v. behemoth.

Then the Sath is better because you can use your most powerful guns all at once while cutting any interference to pieces with your flak guns

anyway
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 12, 2005, 02:24:17 pm
IF all 4 beams on the Sath. were gone, why didnt command put out somore ships? like a corvette or even a couple of cruisers? wouldve been quicker and the C's guns wouldn't have overheated.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: SuperCoolAl on November 12, 2005, 02:45:54 pm
IF all 4 beams on the Sath. were gone, why didnt command put out somore ships? like a corvette or even a couple of cruisers? wouldve been quicker and the C's guns wouldn't have overheated.

The Sathanas decimated all ships in the area before the Collie took it on.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 12, 2005, 04:01:41 pm
ahh.  Another thing, how come the only ' action' the aquatane ever  saw was in the mission with the test pegasus and the mission where you escort it? the one with the trinity didn't count. And how come you barely ever see hecates? Its always Orion, leviathan/fenris, deimos, aeolus, then hecate. the hecate only made 4 or 5 apperances in the game! and its not liike that they were THAT new.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on November 12, 2005, 06:02:03 pm
Actualy, they were "That" new, and also such things werent made to engage in large scale combat.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on November 13, 2005, 08:18:53 am
IF all 4 beams on the Sath. were gone, why didnt command put out somore ships? like a corvette or even a couple of cruisers? wouldve been quicker and the C's guns wouldn't have overheated.

The Sathanas decimated all ships in the area before the Collie took it on.

And emerged with 100% hull integrity to boot...
Geez, they could have weakened the Saths hull a bit for realism sake at least.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on November 13, 2005, 09:21:10 am
The sath can kill a destroyer in a single 7 second volley then can do the same again in 3 seconds...


Not to mention that all non "supercap" weapons only do a fraction of damage (or no damage) to supercapital ships.

So i suppose it's reasonable
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 13, 2005, 06:17:54 pm
ahh.  Another thing, how come the only ' action' the aquatane ever  saw was in the mission with the test pegasus and the mission where you escort it? the one with the trinity didn't count. And how come you barely ever see hecates? Its always Orion, leviathan/fenris, deimos, aeolus, then hecate. the hecate only made 4 or 5 apperances in the game! and its not liike that they were THAT new.

They might actually have been that new; there's also the point that the Hecate makes a lousy ship for when you're forming Battle Line. Still and all, the Hecate could have made a few more appearances; that forward-mounted BGreen could have been put to use in a variety of situations where it wasn't.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 14, 2005, 09:28:02 pm
one of those big fu**ing beams

speaking of big fu**ing beam cannons, why didn't  they put lucy beams on the saths?
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Unknown Target on November 15, 2005, 05:38:33 am
This thread's still alive? :wtf: Kill it!

Anyway, they didn't put the lucy "beams" on the Sath because they were most likely powerful only by contemporary standards. By modern GTVA standards they were probably relatively weak.
Or it could have to do with the apparant uniqueness of the Lucy - a topic that has been debated for ages.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Shiku on November 15, 2005, 10:37:19 am
Or even the fact that the only Lucy beams in existance were destroyed on the other side of the Sol Node. Making it kinda hard to figure out how they worked. (My guess is that Terran/Vasudan command came up with beams by guess work and tactical data from the Lucifer encounteres, as they didn't have any actual beam cannons to studdy untill the Second invasion(and it was to late to put them on the Collosus by then, wasn't it)

I don't really mind the Colossus, I see it as more of a big prop than an actuall ship in Freespace, mostly because it didn't really do much besides what it had to do in the story.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 15, 2005, 11:25:22 am
Four Shivan Super Lasers are actually more powerful then four BFReds, IIRC. Or at the very least extremely close. The Hecate and the Orion actually have the same number of hitpoints, and the Galatea was toasted by four shots from the Lucy, while the Phonecia can be toasted by four shots from the the Sathanas.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 15, 2005, 03:36:58 pm
they do? i always thought the Orion would have thicker armor beacuse it is a more combat oriented destroyer, while the hecate is almost like a light carrier.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: knn on November 15, 2005, 03:38:09 pm
yeah, but the phoecia was a hecate, not an orion.

They have the same hitpoints
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: WMCoolmon on November 15, 2005, 09:57:42 pm
one of those big fu**ing beams

speaking of big fu**ing beam cannons, why didn't  they put lucy beams on the saths?

You'll have to ask the Shivans.

Or even the fact that the only Lucy beams in existance were destroyed on the other side of the Sol Node. Making it kinda hard to figure out how they worked. (My guess is that Terran/Vasudan command came up with beams by guess work and tactical data from the Lucifer encounteres, as they didn't have any actual beam cannons to studdy untill the Second invasion(and it was to late to put them on the Collosus by then, wasn't it)

I don't really mind the Colossus, I see it as more of a big prop than an actuall ship in Freespace, mostly because it didn't really do much besides what it had to do in the story.

There was that mission where you were supposed to scan all sorts of ships, I think the Lucifer weapons subsystem was one of them. Maybe teh data provided let the GTVA build beams.

Or maybe there's something they weren't telling us...some isolated incident...:drevil:

Oh, wait, I'm not making that campaign.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on November 16, 2005, 02:43:04 pm
Four Shivan Super Lasers are actually more powerful then four BFReds, IIRC. Or at the very least extremely close. The Hecate and the Orion actually have the same number of hitpoints, and the Galatea was toasted by four shots from the Lucy, while the Phonecia can be toasted by four shots from the the Sathanas.

They're miles off, a single BFRed Blast can toast and Orion/Hecate, and the only reason the Phoenecia survives (sometimes) is becasue of the guardian flag.  FRED a quick mission with a lilith and an Orion, give the Lilith a BFRed, and the Orion will die in a single shot.  Arm the Lilith with a Shivan Super Laser and they'll take ages, the LRed is more powerful that Shivan Super Laser.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 16, 2005, 03:07:12 pm
Then how come they could destroy stuff so quikly in FS1?
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on November 16, 2005, 06:24:19 pm
Because the Orion has 100000 Hitpoints, and the Shivan Super Laser does 15000 Damage per shot, and is always fired twice by the Lucifer.  It shoots them every 10 seconds, doing 30% damage each time to an Orion.  The Orion was already damaged by the time the Lucifer jumped in, and the only other time it uses it's Lasers is when an Arcadia is at 1%.

A single BFRed blast can destroy an Orion at full strength.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 16, 2005, 07:22:39 pm
No it can't. I looked it up in the weapons.tbl, the BFRed has 2100 damage.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: watsisname on November 16, 2005, 08:40:19 pm
IIRC, a single BFRed will last 7 seconds, and it does the most damager per shot, most damage per minute, and has the shortest "reload" time.
(Go figure, the Shivan's always have the best beams.)  So when you say in the tables it does 2100 damage, that doesn't account for a full 7 seconds of hitting the target.  Check the FS2 beam reference for details on all beam statistics. :)
Try FREDing a Sathanas with the fire-beam SEXP, shooting once at an Orion.  I think it does in fact destroy it.  (I haven't tried it, so perhaps I am wrong about that.)
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on November 17, 2005, 04:31:45 am
The 2100 Value is applied every few milliseconds, which is mentioned right next to it in the tables.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 17, 2005, 04:00:07 pm
wouldn't the lucifer beam be applied every few seconds too then?
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on November 17, 2005, 04:25:16 pm
Using the FS2 Lucifer as the basis for any tests of the power of it's beams is an exercise in futility. The weapons on the Lucifer were changed between FS1 and FS2. In FS1 the Lucifer fired a missile which had been altered to look like a beam. In FS2 :v: added real beams which do damage in a different way (as well as looking better) and decided to change the weapons on all FS2 ships (Including the Lucifer) to reflect this.

The only fair test that can be done is to compare the effect the Lucifer does to an Orion in FS1 with the effect the Sathanas can have on an FS2 Orion.

No it can't. I looked it up in the weapons.tbl, the BFRed has 2100 damage.

Word to the wise. If you don't understand why ask a question rather than directly refuting a statement. You're less likely to get burned to a crisp that way :)
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Polpolion on November 17, 2005, 04:28:29 pm
sorry...It was an accident...yeah...an accident...
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 17, 2005, 09:52:16 pm
The 2100 Value is applied every few milliseconds, which is mentioned right next to it in the tables.

Every few seconds. Big difference.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: TrashMan on November 18, 2005, 09:13:25 am
Incidently, a single BFRed can't take out an Orion...

I jsut tested it.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on November 18, 2005, 09:48:51 am
The 2100 Value is applied every few milliseconds, which is mentioned right next to it in the tables.

Every few seconds. Big difference.

Quote
NOTE: for beam weapons this is kind of a "continuous" damage applied every few fractions of a second that the beam is on.

I was closer :ha::p

A single BFRed definitely destroyed an orion when I tried it a while back.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on November 18, 2005, 04:46:36 pm
Then you were playing with some whacked settings. The sathanases forward armnent is just enough to take out a destroyer in one volley pf beamfire.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Boomer on November 21, 2005, 11:21:46 am
Too bad they can't do squat against anything smaller than a transport...

There ya go, take 4 Erinyes Wings, +another 4 Ares, +6 Artemis D.H. Wings and about o 7 Wings of Ursas...

Lets see the Sathanas stand up against that! >: )

And woe be to the one who brings up Rendering Engine Limitations! 
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on November 21, 2005, 08:03:07 pm
^i'l bring up the supercap damage flag....
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on November 22, 2005, 01:45:55 pm
And I'll add that the Sathanas carries enough fighters and bombers to grind that pathetic fleet into dust.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Boomer on November 23, 2005, 08:50:17 am
Quote
^i'l bring up the supercap damage flag....

I'm pretty sure the Helios works on supercaps...  Unfortunately, I'm at school so I can't get to the tbl's...

Quote
And I'll add that the Sathanas carries enough fighters and bombers to grind that pathetic fleet into dust.

Hmmm...  I see your great fighter complement and raise you a convenient bearbaiting plothole!  Sathanas takes damage to fighterbay in earlier battle like Big C did!

<prepares for fast approaching smackdown from the headmasters BFRed>
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on November 23, 2005, 09:22:20 am
Helios wont even scratch the sath.

And i dont remember the sath ever taking damage to it's fighterbay...
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: karajorma on November 23, 2005, 10:33:12 am
Hmmm... I see your great fighter complement and raise you a convenient bearbaiting plothole! Sathanas takes damage to fighterbay in earlier battle like Big C did!

If you're allowing plotholes be warned that large numbers of terran fighters frequently fall down plotholes too (The incredibly low number of fighters on both sides in Bearbaiting and High Noon etc).
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 23, 2005, 11:27:46 am
Helios wont even scratch the sath.

Dual Helios is good for 1% Sathanas hull. And they will kill it; I've killed the Sathanas in "Their Finest Hour" that way.
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: FireCrack on November 23, 2005, 03:09:07 pm
^realy, i've turned on cheats just to fling innane amounts of helioses at a sathanas and never killed it...
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Prophet on November 25, 2005, 11:54:29 am
'Cos the topic is what it is, I'd like to mention that same goes for the Colossus...

I once played a stupid mission where about 4-5 wings of bombers were pumping Helioses on Colossus. I got bored in about 15 minutes when the Colossus hull strenght wasn't dropping significantly... (It wasn't I who made that mission BTW...)
Title: Re: Why do you dislike the Colossus so much?
Post by: Kie99 on November 25, 2005, 08:22:11 pm
Jake Wars?  Did you have to take out all of it's subsystems first?