Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Swamp_Thing on May 24, 2005, 04:43:04 pm
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TUCSON, Ariz. - The sudden onset of triple-digit heat led to a rash of deaths among illegal immigrants over the weekend in the Arizona desert, with 12 people reported dead between Friday and Monday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7957133/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7957133/)
They can´t stop the immigrants from trying to get in, so maybe they at least try to avoid things like these. Maybe place a few water holes, scattered about the border...
This goes to show that the human being will do just about anything to get a better life. Including crossing a friggin desert without water...
:blah:
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I know I should feel compassion but...dumbasses.
And if you read the article, you'd see that the US Border Patrol actually came in and saved most of them.
But seriously: wait until it's not as hot, bring water, or go a different way.
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It's just the tragedy of a poor, desperate people.
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You know, if their country(ies) half as much effort into developing their own economies as they do *****ing...
I'm for a fence like the one that Israel is building.
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Lib let's be honest you'd put up Tesla turrents along the border :p
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nah...I'd have an battallion of Flak Tracks patroling the border day and night, picking up illegals and taking them back across the border.:D
That's something that needs to be said, they died committing an illegal act. It doesn't matter what you think of the US or the circumstances that lead to the act. From a purely objective point of view they were committing a crime.
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...and what is the intent of the law?
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Lib: technically, yes. But stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family is technically a crime. The thing is that I can understand America's desire to remain ethnically "proper" (and let's be honest here, every nation has the same wish, with only a few exceptions) by keeping out the Mexicans, but I can't honestly say that I wouldn't do the same thing if I were in their shoes. Given the choice between institutionalized poverty and a chance at a better life...
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Oh yes lets encourage people to violate the law by setting up water holes just so we can spend more money when they are caught prosecuting them and sending them back. I have no problem with mexican immigration. But I wish they would use the proper channels. This is also why I like the idea of a visitor worker program. It makes sure where they are and that they are paying their ****ing taxes. It is a shame though that they died but I find it laughable that people insinuate that the United States is liable for their deaths(which there are people out there).
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Originally posted by Rictor
Lib: technically, yes. But stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family is technically a crime. The thing is that I can understand America's desire to remain ethnically "proper" (and let's be honest here, every nation has the same wish, with only a few exceptions) by keeping out the Mexicans, but I can't honestly say that I wouldn't do the same thing if I were in their shoes. Given the choice between institutionalized poverty and a chance at a better life...
No, I would just become a US citizen, instead of living off the goverment, and avoiding taxes.
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I like how you can make statements like that with such certainty, given that it's a group of something like 10 million people, about whom information is mostly scarce or non-existant, for obvious reasons.
The thing is that even in Canada, "home of the immigrants", immigration is a real bitch. They have very high standards, and it's simple logic that if people were well off in their own country, they wouldn't need to emmigrate.
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Originally posted by vyper
Lib let's be honest you'd put up Tesla turrents along the border :p
Really? I'd think he'd be one for putting turrets along the border.
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I, personally, would have no problem lowering the standards for immigrants. Especially since most americans can't for their life pass a nationalization exam. This is even more so since the US was populated by immigrants. Instead of give me your tired, hungry and repressed we have a NO VACANCY sign erected. Additionally, I should point out the political reasons as well. Unions are afraid that they wll loose jobs to immigrants as well. ****ing Politics.
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Okay, I have no problem with them coming in...but:
A)They must do it legally
B)They must Natualize(learn the language...customs...ect, I would expect that they would want me to do the same thing if I came to live in their country.)
C)They must stop trying to ****ing remake the United States of America in the rundown rathole they ran away from...
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Originally posted by vyper
Lib let's be honest you'd put up Tesla turrents along the border :p
[size=143]TURRET!!!!!!!!!!![/size] :hopping:
(in case KT's post wasn't obvious enough...)
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actually i think they did put up first aid stations that had drinking water and rattlesnake anti-venom and other medical stuff. only problem is the mexicans avoid them like the plague in fear of being caught. i dont mind the mexicans coming across. i actually rather like the mexicans, they have really cool drinking rituals and ileagal immigrants make 90% of phoenix's kick ass mexican food (just dont ask whats in it). .they provide cheap day labor, which is good if you need somone to keep your golf course mowed. as for not paying taxes, i dont even think they make enough to pay taxes. hell i didnt have to pay any taxes last year, they had to give it all back when i filed my tax return, i just didnt make enough. mexico isnt as bad as you think it is, you might not want to drink the water there but there is less bull**** and more freedom.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
:hopping:
Really, if I had adminly powers, (which I do not) I would look into adding that into the word filter.
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there are those wh misspell turrent on purpose just to annoy people :D
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But it's not a word.
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Originally posted by Liberator
C)They must stop trying to ****ing remake the United States of America in the rundown rathole they ran away from...
I think that's a very idiotic and stereotypical view to take. I can only presume you're upset that people may want to hold onto their own culture in a strange land.
Particularly the implict equation of low-paid immigrants (who often form the backbone of the services industry, especially the illegals who end up in near-slavery) as being rats, and holding them responsible for the ills of your country.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Really, if I had adminly powers, (which I do not) I would look into adding that into the word filter.
That's an awesome idea. Implementing. :D
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Crikey, the rains coming down in turrents outside.......
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I think that's a very idiotic and stereotypical view to take. I can only presume you're upset that people may want to hold onto their own culture in a strange land.
Particularly the implict equation of low-paid immigrants (who often form the backbone of the services industry, especially the illegals who end up in near-slavery) as being rats, and holding them responsible for the ills of your country.
Come on, it's Liberator. What is this "compassion and understanding" you speak of?
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:D
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Oooh... impressive.
now no-one can ever misspell turrnets!
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:lol:
uhm... turretns ? :nervous:
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Turretns?
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Originally posted by redmenace
I, personally, would have no problem lowering the standards for immigrants. Especially since most americans can't for their life pass a nationalization exam. This is even more so since the US was populated by immigrants. Instead of give me your tired, hungry and repressed we have a NO VACANCY sign erected. Additionally, I should point out the political reasons as well. Unions are afraid that they wll loose jobs to immigrants as well. ****ing Politics.
I agree, that test is ridiculous.
"Give me your tired, your hungry, and poor, your huddled masses, ...." is one of the things America stands for. I don't think we should change that. It is unfortunate that people have to leave their own countries in search of a better life, and theirs should be trying to better their peoples' lives, but denying them the opportunity to come to America is against everything we stand for, or at least what we used to stand for.
Also, back in the day, you pretty much had immigrants coming into two designated areas: Ellis Island and Angel Island. Not like it is today, that's why there's so much trouble. They may not learn our culture at first, but over the generatons they do, and it's their own cultures that enrich ours. Our ancestors probably didn't welcome American culture with open arms, and the native borns probably didn't like them coming in with theirs. Why do you think Italians, Irish, Chinese, etc. were persecuted for so long? They weren't welcomed here and they came in droves. (The Chinese so much that they were actually forbidden for a while.) It's the same thing going on now.
What those people did was dumb, but they weren't in the right frame of mind in the first place, so it's no surprise they did what they did.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Okay, I have no problem with them coming in...but:
A)They must do it legally
B)They must Natualize(learn the language...customs...ect, I would expect that they would want me to do the same thing if I came to live in their country.)
C)They must stop trying to ****ing remake the United States of America in the rundown rathole they ran away from...
My thoughts exactly. I live in Texas so I have to deal with these people daily.
My primary problem with these mexican 'refugees' are:
1. Stop trying to take our f**** jobs.
2. Dont make me pay your taxes. Its not fair for you to leech off of my money. One of the reasons America is a nice place to live because people pay taxes. If you come here pay your property taxes.
3. Learn to speak my language. If you want to have any hope of getting a job from me or anyone else I want to be able to communicate with you. I hate resorting to charades.
4. Leave your mexican flags at home. The american flag is your flag now. Dont fly a godam mexican flag in front of your house.
5. Dont steal my bike or car.
6. And lastly, dont buy so much f***** beer during new years, you have to leave enough for everyone.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Crikey, the rains coming down in turrents outside.......
You'd be looking for "torrents", like in BitTorrent. :D
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This thread officially gets my stamp of approval simply for the "turrent" = turrent bit.
It's always a tragedy when people die needlessly, but honestly I would not expect ANY nation to actually facillitate illegal immigration.
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
My thoughts exactly. I live in Texas so I have to deal with these people daily.
My primary problem with these mexican 'refugees' are:
1. Stop trying to take our f**** jobs.
2. Dont make me pay your taxes. Its not fair for you to leech off of my money. One of the reasons America is a nice place to live because people pay taxes. If you come here pay your property taxes.
3. Learn to speak my language. If you want to have any hope of getting a job from me or anyone else I want to be able to communicate with you. I hate resorting to charades.
4. Leave your mexican flags at home. The american flag is your flag now. Dont fly a godam mexican flag in front of your house.
5. Dont steal my bike or car.
6. And lastly, dont buy so much f***** beer during new years, you have to leave enough for everyone.
1. That's capitalism, buddy. It would be hypocritical to support it only when its convenient for you (and inconvenient for someone else) and not visa versa.
2. Statistics?
3. You probably have a point, but it's hard for fully-grown adults of any nationality to learn a whole new language that late in life.
4. Who are you to tell them? They can fly a Martian flag if they like. Where you physically live is not always the place that you identify with as "home". Personally, I like it when immigrants retain their own culture (and besides, Mexicans have good food).
5. Bull****, man. Are you saying crime is drastically more prevalent among Mexicans than among born-and-bred Americans?
6. This is your big, important arguement against immigration? Beer?
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1 and 2 have problems. first off you need to take into consideration the average jobs illegal immigrants get. there pretty much restricted to day labor, organized crime rackets, or otherwise working for some american who wants to take advantage of a problem. in other words they take jobs you probibly wouldnt want. once they get a green card, then they can work in a more open manor and they will usuallypay taxes at this point. as for the taxes, usually they dont make enough to pay taxes. i think i said this already. according to last years tax table you need to make more 6000 a year before you need to pay any.
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Originally posted by Rictor
2. Statistics?
They have been known to run businesses as independent contractors and then not pay taxes.
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
My thoughts exactly. I live in Texas so I have to deal with these people daily.
My primary problem with these mexican 'refugees' are:
1. Stop trying to take our f**** jobs.
2. Dont make me pay your taxes. Its not fair for you to leech off of my money. One of the reasons America is a nice place to live because people pay taxes. If you come here pay your property taxes.
3. Learn to speak my language. If you want to have any hope of getting a job from me or anyone else I want to be able to communicate with you. I hate resorting to charades.
4. Leave your mexican flags at home. The american flag is your flag now. Dont fly a godam mexican flag in front of your house.
5. Dont steal my bike or car.
6. And lastly, dont buy so much f***** beer during new years, you have to leave enough for everyone.
1/ you want to pick strawberries or wash dishes for $1 a day? The reason illegal immigrants get jobs, is because no legally employable citizen would take a job working under the same pay & conditions.
2/ I'm sure if they were there legally, they would (and if not would be prosecuted for it). The illegal immigrants you seem to be referring to are the same kind who, by dint of their 'illegal' status, wouldn't really be allowed access to state-funded resources.
3/ That's fair enough; although technically IIRC english speakers are a minority in parts of US, so maybe the situation should be reversed there?
4/ Would you make the same objection if I was to move to (say) Florida and fly a Scottish flag outside my house? What's wrong with remembering where you come from - isn't the US a nation of immigrants anyways?
(incidentally, my cousin came over from Airdrie with his Texan wife and works in a hospital over in Texas; do you object to that as well?)
5/ Fair enough again; but don't stereotype immigrants as criminals.
6/ :wtf:
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turrent turrent turrent turrent turrent turrent turrent
Best. Smiley. Ever.
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@ Aldo
2. They use the roads don't they? How about parks?
4. I doubt anyone would even recognize a Scottish flag, and thus not object. However, the point is valid.
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
My thoughts exactly. I live in Texas so I have to deal with these people daily.
My primary problem with these mexican 'refugees' are:
1. Stop trying to take our f**** jobs.
2. Dont make me pay your taxes. Its not fair for you to leech off of my money. One of the reasons America is a nice place to live because people pay taxes. If you come here pay your property taxes.
3. Learn to speak my language. If you want to have any hope of getting a job from me or anyone else I want to be able to communicate with you. I hate resorting to charades.
4. Leave your mexican flags at home. The american flag is your flag now. Dont fly a godam mexican flag in front of your house.
5. Dont steal my bike or car.
6. And lastly, dont buy so much f***** beer during new years, you have to leave enough for everyone.
1. Stop working our farms? Stop bagging our groceries? Stop serving our burgers? Stop mopping our floors? Stop cleaning our toilets?
Don't fool yourself. You wouldn't want to do any of those jobs either, and neither does any other American. That's why mexicans are here to do our ***** work. Why? Because as much as it sucks, it apparently doesn't suck as much as their country. If they're willing to do twice as much work as you for half the pay, then let them. When's the last time you wanted a job so bad as to try an outbid one of them on pay?
2. How do you "pay their taxes"? You don't pay their taxes anymore than I pay yours. They come here, buy property and put their kids in school and don't pay taxes, they get deported. Otherwise, well, they still do #1.
3. Why? They lived here first. We came 150 years ago, beat the snot out of them, and took half their country. The people they interact with speak spanish. The people at the places the shop speak spanish. Unless you're saying that since we took their land, we should subjugate their culture as well, there's no real reason for them needing to speak English other than in cases of emergency or when communicating with our government, such as in instances of #2.
Telling them they have to speak English is silly. You can't, as a democracy, walk onto somebody's land in a war, take it for your own, tell them they can stay, but force them too act as you do. The land belongs to the ethnicity as far as language goes. If anything, you should make an effort to communicate with them, if you're going to complain about it.
4. :wtf: So, if I immigrate to another country, I'm not allowed to display my heritage? When I decide to move to France, I shouldn't be allowed to fly the American Flag on the fourth of July? Or any other day for that matter if I should feel so inclined?
What ever happened to freedom of speech?
5. Don't make my country look ignorant.
6. They're doing you a favour here.
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1)so you suport exploitation of people from a thrid world nation. You know I hear Africa is a real **** hole, maybe we should grab a few people from over there and put them to work in our **** hole jobs, yeah I'm sure they'd be better off that way.
this is probly the real reason nothing is ever done to fix this problem the corperations funding both parties love the cheap labor they get our of the deal, if your illigal you can get paid less than minimum wage, what are you going to do about it? ***** to the cops?
2) if there useing public services financed by tax dolars (like hospitals, police, fire department, welfair, ect...) that they didn't pay into then you and I and mat here are paying his taxes.
3)actualy the indians lived there first, then they came, then we came like 100 years later (I know it's more than that) speek the language of the nation you move to, when you move to france you r better damn well learn french, why, because your french because you live in france, it's the nation you are a citizen of, you should be able to speak the language of your nation. (note my use of the word should not must.) all the people I know who've immegrated (and it's a supriseingly large number of people) know perfict english, and they'd laugh at me if I ever asked them if they shouldn't
4)no, you shouldn't.
5&6)agreed
(though it sounds like these come from personal experience.)
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Too all of the people who disagreed with me on 1, 2 and 3
Come live in Arizona, New Mexico or Texas and I think you will change your mind.
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And by no means am I trying to be racist (nor am I racist for that matter.) I am just stating about what I have observed over my years of living in texas.
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i did live in arizona for 4 years. and i didnt much mind the mexicans. i worked with several. they are hard working people. most of them know more languages than your average white american. we could learn alot from them. i think we should aproach langueages the same way european schools do, make it mandatory to learn more than one, usually they would teach languages of neiboring countries. just because america is a big country doesnt mean we should avoid learning the languages of our neibors.
as for taxes, the number of mexicans dodging there taxes cant be as bad as the number of white people dodging theirs :D
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British schools took that approach for Modern languages. I hated every minute of French.
I couldn't even choose German, or Italian, like I chose Physics over Biology - it was bloody abritrary and annoying.
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1. Stop working our farms? Stop bagging our groceries? Stop serving our burgers? Stop mopping our floors? Stop cleaning our toilets?
Suppose robots are built to do these menial tasks, which someday they will be im sure. Then what? What do you do with a bunch of people with very little skill, little education, who only speaks spanish and has found it very hard to adapt to the american working society? Im talking about people who shouldnt be here aka ILLEGAL immigrants.
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That's horrible. I know all the laws governing this, but this is still a sad day when things like this happen in our world. It would be a tragedy if this world didn't actually have a real source of hope.
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
Too all of the people who disagreed with me on 1, 2 and 3
Come live in Arizona, New Mexico or Texas and I think you will change your mind.
Ahem. And California is any different?
Bob:
- Taking them? No. But if they feel their country sucks, and they feel so inclined as to come here and take up jobs which seem like cake to them, or are worth it anyway, why not let them? Especially as they are jobs the average "american" would ***** about doing in the first place. Yes, there is quite the potential for exploitation of said immigrants,. Yet they are willing to come here and do **** jobs for minimum pay, and for the most part, they are happy to do so compared to what they didn't use to have. Don't complain if someone is willing to work harder than you are to earn a living.
- Alright.
- The difference is that there are no Inidians anymore, save for the... what.. maybe... hundred thousand at the most left? And they're spread all across the states.
There's a flaw in your analogy though. If I were to move to France, I would be totally out of place. Unless there was a town of English speaking Americans in France, yes, I damn well better learn French, or suffer the obvious. However, the difference between me moving to France, and Mexicans living in the states is that:
1) They never really left. As a result, have the people here, in the border states especially, already speak primarily spanish.
2) The French didn't conquer France from English speaking people as far as I know. If I were to move to France and speak English, it'd be almost the same as if I were to move to China and speak English. The difference is that We took the Mexican's land away from them, but never forced them to stay out. When they "move" to the US, legally or otherwise, they're moving physically, yes. Yet, culturally, it's the same thing.
Now, either you know some exceptional immigrants, or you know some who moved straight into 'American' society. While immigrants probably should learn English, when moving into a self-containable community as they do, it isn't always a priority or necesary for them. If you look at history, you'll see that in the late 1800's and early 1900's, a lot of immigrants came over from Europe and lived in communities with others of their ethnicity, especially on the East Coast. In short order we had Dutch, Irish, and German cities, and a lot of them spoke their native tongue within them. Newspapers, shops, communication, all in their language. While they eventually grew out of it, it was entirely possible for them to come here and not 'learn your language' and still be American. Hell, you go to Chinatown in San Francisco, and a lot of the Chinese there, particularly the older ones, don't know perfect, or even great English. Maybe enough to get by, or to make money, but certainly not on a grade school level even. And nobody *****es about them.
- Why not? Which brings me to another question... Why do you even care?
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dosnt the average chineese person speek adequit englisg, i think i heard somewhere that chineese people have to learn english in school. noone *****es about the chineese-american population because they are really good at buisness and make really good food. how many chineese food places are run by white people, seriously. the chineese are such an adaptable people they could move anywhere and succeed.
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Originally posted by Deepblue
@ Aldo
2. They use the roads don't they? How about parks?
4. I doubt anyone would even recognize a Scottish flag, and thus not object. However, the point is valid.
RE 2/ if they're using the roads, I'd imagine the US will have taxation upon fuel and the cost of a car? Parks...well, I guess tourists also use parks, would you like them to pay a residency tax as well?
4/ So people only object if they recognise the flag? And why is the point valid? Why do people who move to America - a country originally founded as a colony after all, whose indigenous people were nearly wiped out - have to forget their root? (what's so offensive about a foreign flag?)
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when i was in phoenix i think they made a brittish family take down a brittish flag on their own propery. i remember i saw it on the news. it was actually pretty sick. surely we as a species has outgrown the need for flags. we dont need a banner to tell us who we are. to pledge your allegance to an object is the first step to facisim. take a simple image and create a cult phenomena around it. every dictator in the world knew this. something as stupid as a piece of cloth can create violence and death.
i think motorhead said it beast
'i hold a banner drenched in blood
i urge you to be brave
i lead you to your destiny
i lead you to your grave'
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Originally posted by Nuke
dosnt the average chineese person speek adequit englisg, i think i heard somewhere that chineese people have to learn english in school. noone *****es about the chineese-american population because they are really good at buisness and make really good food. how many chineese food places are run by white people, seriously. the chineese are such an adaptable people they could move anywhere and succeed.
I agree.