Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vyper on May 24, 2005, 08:41:33 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4575551.stm
[q]Antisocial behaviour in some children could be the result of their genetic make-up, a study says.
UK research on twins suggests children with early psychopathic tendencies, such as lack of remorse, are likely to have inherited it from their parents. [/q]
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As a twin, and a psychopath, I am deeply offended by their insensitive generalizations. Think I'll get my brother and go teach 'em a lesson.
edit: Am I the only one who is deeply distrubed by the hysteria in the UK over "anti-social behaviour"? The wording makes it seem as if though all those who don't fit neatly into society are mad killers, or potential ones, and steps need to be taken to re-integrate them as model citizens. It smacks of the fascist mentality "Everything within the [l]State[/l] society, nothing outside the [l]State[/l] society, nothing opposed to the [l]State[/l] society."
Pardon me, but given the type of society we have, being oppossed to it, or certain parts of it, seems only normal.
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Interesting dichotomy here, between their blame-no-one approach, and this...
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If I may be so bold as to quote myself, "Psychology is the art of belittling other people."
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Actually, Psychology is the art of BSing you're way to millions and subjecting a significant portion of the population to the horrors of "mental balancing drugs" such as Ritalin(the single most over-prescribed drug on the planet) and others.
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Liberator, do you have any f***king idea what Ritalin is even used for?
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if you want to know the effects of a childhood full of ritilin just look at me, the great screwup of the hlp.
as for theese findings, im like wasnt it obvious. its funny when science confirms my delusions. ever heard the dimmu borgir song 'archetacture of a genocideal nature' it says the same damn thing (and has a really cool piano section).
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It's not your fault man, you live in Alaska.
Nobody blames you.
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The thing is, I get the impression that psychological studies seem to have the most effect based on their conclusions.
I remember hearing about someone who told a bunch of kidnergartners that scientists had determined that brown-eyed kids were superior to blue-eyed kids. As a result the blue-eyed kids' grades dropped, the brown-eyed kids started to tease them, etc etc.
Then they said that actually, the study had been wrong, and blue-eyed kids were actually smarter and better than brown-eyed kids, and the trend started to reverse.
Now this is thirdhand information at best (I got it from someone who claims to have read about it somewhere) but I can easily believe it. It makes sense based on what I've observed. So many people seem to base their opinion of other people on what those other people seem to be implying about themselves. EG someone who acts like they're interesting and has something to say will always trump the person who really does have something to say but feels like they're worthless. And in fact oftentimes this just gets worse and worse over time, because people naturally gravitate towards the first person while ignoring or insulting the second. (Sometimes in such subtle ways, like feeling sorry for them and pitying them.)
And IMHO + experience psychology is usually nothing more than saying "It's not your choices...it's just you." and assigning fancy names to specific modes of behavior that in grade school would usually just result in someone saying "(s)he's weird."
Yes, there are some extra-serious conditions, but again IMHO I think a friend that actually cares and is willing to help you improve yourself is worlds better than any paid psychologist in 90% of cases.
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I remember hearing about someone who told a bunch of kidnergartners that scientists had determined that brown-eyed kids were superior to blue-eyed kids. As a result the blue-eyed kids' grades dropped, the brown-eyed kids started to tease them, etc etc.
Then they said that actually, the study had been wrong, and blue-eyed kids were actually smarter and better than brown-eyed kids, and the trend started to reverse.
I remember seeing a video a while ago where someone did that same thing. It was all a part of a presentation about bullying. The entire point of doing that was to try and stop grade school bullying.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
It's not your fault man, you live in Alaska.
Nobody blames you.
i was a screwup in phoenix too so dont blame the state. at least here everyones poorer than i am :D im a screwup because im human and humanity is the biggest screwup of all time :D all hail lord and tyrant screwup!
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Originally posted by Rictor
As a twin, and a psychopath, I am deeply offended by their insensitive generalizations. Think I'll get my brother and go teach 'em a lesson.
edit: Am I the only one who is deeply distrubed by the hysteria in the UK over "anti-social behaviour"? The wording makes it seem as if though all those who don't fit neatly into society are mad killers, or potential ones, and steps need to be taken to re-integrate them as model citizens. It smacks of the fascist mentality "Everything within the [l]State[/l] society, nothing outside the [l]State[/l] society, nothing opposed to the [l]State[/l] society."
Pardon me, but given the type of society we have, being oppossed to it, or certain parts of it, seems only normal.
The definition of 'antisocial' behaviour used in the media - in this context - effectively means 'little bastards who act like dicks to everyone they meet'.
i.e. the kids who attack teachers & set fire to desks (in a school sense), or who get pissed underage then break into cars or bottle a random stranger (in the general sense); 'low-grade' crimes such as harassment or vandalism.
It's anti-social as in the context of harmful to society (such as crime), rather than a differing expression of interest or opinion, which seems to be what you're implying.
It's believed there's a new and growing problem of youth crime; I say 'believed', because the politicians (all of them...) and media have a tendency to hype these things out of proportion for a quick headline.
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There is definitely a problem (I've had 10-year-olds try and start a fight with me, and I regularly get abuse from the local chavs about how I dress etc), but it's been blown out of proportion somewhat. It's the latest moral panic (the last big one was probably paedophiles). I personally think it's a mix of some genetics (some people are more predisposed to behavioural problems), boredom, and bad parenting. [old codger]Kids these days have no respect for authority...[/codger]
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ok, well what if anti-socal (however you want to define that) behavior is genetic?
if you have evedence you can't just ignore it because you don't like it.
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Even if that's the case though - in this day and age - that begins to smack of nothing more than an excuse. "He can't help it, it's genetic". That doesn't alter the fact that the subject potentially harms others and - considering the way society is currently functioning - he or she may be allowed to get away with it as well.
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Originally posted by Kosh
Liberator, do you have any f***king idea what Ritalin is even used for?
It is a drug given to people, primarily children, who are considered Hyper and need help focusing in school. A large portion of the prescribees are young boys between the ages of 5 and 12, because they can't sit still in class(most likely because they are bored because they aren't being challenged). Also, 100% of the perps in recent school shootings have been on Ritalin. I'm not saying it doesn't have a use, but drugging a child because he's more intelligent or more advanced than his peers is ridiculous, dangerous and worst of all, lazy on the part of all who are responsible for seeing after the well-being of the child.
*edit*
It's also worth noting that boys of that age are physiologically predisposed to bounce off the walls.
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
There is definitely a problem (I've had 10-year-olds try and start a fight with me, and I regularly get abuse from the local chavs about how I dress etc), but it's been blown out of proportion somewhat. It's the latest moral panic (the last big one was probably paedophiles). I personally think it's a mix of some genetics (some people are more predisposed to behavioural problems), boredom, and bad parenting. [old codger]Kids these days have no respect for authority...[/codger]
Well, that's simple then. No doctors, no studies, no media hype. Just a simple solution: when your kid starts acting like a little bastard, smack him good. There seems to be an aversion to discipline over here in Canada (and I would venture a guess also in the US and UK). But all my friends who grew up in Europe, Asia, Africa or wherever, they all agree that a big reason why they turned out fine is cause over there when you screw up, you're yelled at and given five across the eye. It's not cruel or anything, kids just don't know any better. And it's not going to screw up their life (unless you're a nutjob, and actually abuse your kids instead of disciplining them), rather quite the opposite.
What I support is people growing up with a basic respect for those around them, and not acting like pricks when they're ten years old. Later, when you're old enough to make a consciece decision about your stance towards authority - fine, go ahead. But for kids, and those just growing up, discipline keeps them from being a major nuisance.
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Originally posted by Liberator
It is a drug given to people, primarily children, who are considered Hyper and need help focusing in school. A large portion of the prescribees are young boys between the ages of 5 and 12, because they can't sit still in class(most likely because they are bored because they aren't being challenged). Also, 100% of the perps in recent school shootings have been on Ritalin. I'm not saying it doesn't have a use, but drugging a child because he's more intelligent or more advanced than his peers is ridiculous, dangerous and worst of all, lazy on the part of all who are responsible for seeing after the well-being of the child.
*edit*
It's also worth noting that boys of that age are physiologically predisposed to bounce off the walls.
Ritalin is/should be only prescribed as a treatment for Atention-Defecit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD); ADHD is a recognised neurological disorder (i.e. down to brain differences rather than parenting or social factors), albeit there is no current standard test for it AFAIK. It's the latter that possibly leads it to being considered as a 'quick fix' drug; i think also some doctors compound the error by going simply upon descriptions of symptons (the symptoms of ADHD are similar to that of a gifted childs behaviour when he/she is 'ahead' of the rest of the class).
So you're right in the sense of over-prescription, but it's a symptom of shoddy diagnosis techniques primarily, IMO, and as such I think it's important to remember it is considered a treatment for a known disorder and thus still has an application within the classroom, with the right diagnosis.
Incidentally, I don't believe Jeff Weise (the last high profile 'school shooter') was on Ritalin (at least not so far as any websearch has shown) - he was on anti-depressants AFAIK. One of the Coumbine shooters was on an anti-depressant as well, I've not seen anything to indicate either or both were taking Ritalin; IMO the 100% claim you make is totally off-base (and would irrellevant if true; there are a morass of factors that figure in these shootings - access to weapons, social ostracisation, mental illness such as depression, etc - you could blame any number of these, but it still wouldn't explain the millions or so in similar situations who don't go out, steal their dads gun, and shoot up a cafeteria).
Originally posted by Rictor
Well, that's simple then. No doctors, no studies, no media hype. Just a simple solution: when your kid starts acting like a little bastard, smack him good. There seems to be an aversion to discipline over here in Canada (and I would venture a guess also in the US and UK). But all my friends who grew up in Europe, Asia, Africa or wherever, they all agree that a big reason why they turned out fine is cause over there when you screw up, you're yelled at and given five across the eye. It's not cruel or anything, kids just don't know any better. And it's not going to screw up their life (unless you're a nutjob, and actually abuse your kids instead of disciplining them), rather quite the opposite.
What I support is people growing up with a basic respect for those around them, and not acting like pricks when they're ten years old. Later, when you're old enough to make a consciece decision about your stance towards authority - fine, go ahead. But for kids, and those just growing up, discipline keeps them from being a major nuisance.
I think that physical discipline - violence per se - is more adept at breeding fear & loathing than understanding & respect of 'the rules'. It's applying the principle of 'award, punish' you use for dogs to children, and I'm not sure that's a viable method.
There's 2 main arguements against this, IIRC.
The first is that physical discipline is normally used in times of frustration - this, especially for young children, gives them an impression that violence is a suitable response to frustration. It also potentionally reinforces an acceptance of violence as a solution because not only is violence used as the 'correct' response to a bad thing (i.e. as the converse punishment, it is regarded as 'good'), and also because the person using violence is usually the parent, i.e. they associate love with violence.
EDIT; connected to this is the general societal acceptance that it's wrong to hit another adult as punishment for some slight; why apply the inverse to children, especially to teach them a 'life lesson'?
(NB: violence being used as it's shorter than 'physical discipline' or soforth).
The second arguement centres over the parents and the aforementioned abuse situation; IIRc the most frequent form of child abuse is beatings of children. From what i understand, in many cases this is the result of progression - for whatever reason - from the use of 'mild' physical discipline. I believe Swedens ban on physical punishment of children (in 1979) was found to lead to a decrease in child mortality due to this type of abuse. Whilst mild to abusive violence may not seem a morally logical progression, it is a physically logical progression.
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Well, the proof is in the pudding. Notice how this isn't a problem in countries where "enlightened parenting" is not practiced, which at last count includes most of the world. I've talked about precisely this with friends from Greece, Iran, Macedonia, Russia etc, and the consensus seems to be that it's perfectly acceptable to establish adults as an authority figure, and basically let the kid know who's boss.
And when you're dealing with a 5 year old, I honestly believe that they learn the same way a dog would learn, positive and negative reinforcement. Maybe it's some other characteristic of Western societies that produces negative traits in kids as a result of discipline, but you have to realize that young children (younger than around 10) don't behave or think rationally. Reasoning doesn't work. So in order that they learn basic respect, a hierarchal order must be present (eg we're not all equals). In no way do I condone taking this to the extreme, and intentionally abusing your kids (mentally or physically) due to the adult's superior strenght and intellect, but a healthy amount of discipline does wonders.
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I agree. :yes:
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Originally posted by Rictor
Well, the proof is in the pudding. Notice how this isn't a problem in countries where "enlightened parenting" is not practiced, which at last count includes most of the world. I've talked about precisely this with friends from Greece, Iran, Macedonia, Russia etc, and the consensus seems to be that it's perfectly acceptable to establish adults as an authority figure, and basically let the kid know who's boss.
And when you're dealing with a 5 year old, I honestly believe that they learn the same way a dog would learn, positive and negative reinforcement. Maybe it's some other characteristic of Western societies that produces negative traits in kids as a result of discipline, but you have to realize that young children (younger than around 10) don't behave or think rationally. Reasoning doesn't work. So in order that they learn basic respect, a hierarchal order must be present (eg we're not all equals). In no way do I condone taking this to the extreme, and intentionally abusing your kids (mentally or physically) due to the adult's superior strenght and intellect, but a healthy amount of discipline does wonders.
Then how do you know they aren't going to equate violence with 'good' things, if they don't think rationally? Children do learn from their parents, after all.
I'm not sure how many studies on corporal punishment have been done; I have read that there has been an indication of it leading to depression in later life (due to the suppressed anxiety of having a lack of control against the stronger adult), that a 1986-90 study (by the University of New Hampshire) in the Us found that physically disciplined 3-5 year olds were more likely to display antisocial behaviour 2-4 years later (hitting siblings, classmates, ignoring parental rules) and that physically disciplined children were more likely to score below-average in IQ tests.
A further, more recent study (lat year) by the University of Michigan also drew the conclusion that physical punishment increased incidences of anti-social behaviour (http://www.umich.edu/news/?Releases/2004/Sep04/r090804).
The NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) holds the same view; I don't have a link to a study, but I have seen an NSPCC presentation that states;
- anticipation of violence can affect brain development
- smacked toddlers are 5x less compliant
- smacked 6-year olds are 6x less obidient at school
- smacked pre-teens are more likely to get in trouble in later life
Children are protected by law from physical punishment in the following countries: Austria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Israel, Iceland, Latvia, Norway and Sweden. I wouldn't mind the opinion of people from there on whether anti-social behaviour (in the sense of crime, etc) is a problem there which they equate to a lack of physical discipline.
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I am a very antisocial person. I got into fights with my brothers constantly; I was picked on in school daily and got into fights frequently; I pissed off teachers; I had no friends; I pay the price of being an antisocial "adult." Although, I'm not necessarily a product of violent discipline (as in smacking and beating). My dad was the authoritarian. I was spanked and he would occasionally hold me upside-down by the legs. I wouldn't put all the blame on that though (see above for other factors). My mom had non-physical ways of discipline. Violence is not the answer, period. One does not earn respect through fear. A wise person once said, "Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering."
I doubt this all has to do with genetics. That's just an excuse for those looking for an easy explanation. It's caused by a multitude of factors and the only solution is early intervention in a variety of ways (therapy, improving quality of life, etc.). If that doesn't work, then maybe you can blame the genes. Instead they just continue to cram pills down your throats and &^%@ us up even more! I have heard countless stories from people about how the drugs screw with the minds and bodies and compound the problems or do nothing. Many refuse to use drugs (inlcuding me) for that reason.
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There are better ways to punish your child for misbehaving. Like cutting down on their TV time, no computer, ground them, all of wich do not involve any kind of violence towards the infant.
Violence is the discipline method of choice of lowsy parents. And it begets more violence in turn. Kids who suffer physical abuse will themselfs likely become abusers in the future.
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i think ritilins been phased out in favor of newer pills which suposidly have fewer side effects. what i dont understand is why you want to give hyper children speed. if your kids are hyper, give them some chores or enrol them in sports. might as well use that excess energy for something.
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Originally posted by Nuke
i think ritilins been phased out in favor of newer pills which suposidly have fewer side effects. what i dont understand is why you want to give hyper children speed. if your kids are hyper, give them some chores or enrol them in sports. might as well use that excess energy for something.
The reason for giving a stimulant is to stimulate the areas of the brain responsible for focus, attention, and impulse control. The active ingredient in Ritalin is Methylphenidate (MPH), is an amphetamine-a-like also used to treat narcolepsy.
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ok, I think a good way to solve this disciplen debate is with a good'ole comparitive study.
asshat% in nations that never backhanded there kids when they were out of line 0.0% (no such nation exsists)
asshat% in nations that stoped backhanding there kids 98.68%
asshat% in nations were if you screwup you get a woop'n 8.43%
HHhhhmmmmmmmm.......
(*numbers were provided by my ass*)
but you get the point, kids in all major western nations are fucking dickheaded assholes
oh, yeah..
"there is no current standard test for it"
what great fucking kind of science is that?
your saying that I can get a kid show him to one doctor and have him diagnosed with ADD, then right after that take him to another doctor and giveing the same sorts of reponces be told he's perfictly normal?!
so assumeing that ADD is a real disiese, we not only have childeren being diagnosed with it and treated for something they don't have but also kids who have it but are not getting treatment? can you see how people could have a problem with this!?
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Originally posted by Bobboau
ok, well what if anti-socal (however you want to define that) behavior is genetic?
if you have evedence you can't just ignore it because you don't like it.
What if it is? The thing about the brain is that it can adapt itself to new or changing conditions. AFAIK after childhood the brain stops developing at a significant rate, but usually you can still learn afterwards. Unless something is totally unconscious or voluntary, you can change your actions. And as socialness is almost totally based on the way others perceive you, which is in turn based on your actions, you can affect how social you are by learning and correcting behaviors. (eg walk up to and talk to women instead of running away shouting about cooties ;) )
I don't think society is really ready (or mature enough) to genetically select people's personality attributes.
Making judgements about how a person will turn out later in life, based on their genetics, seems very similar to basing someone's career abilities on sex or race.
And personally, I don't think physical abuse is the answer to good parenting. It just shows the kid that the person bigger and stronger than them has more power, if you're successful. I think Robert Heinlein may have had a point when he pointed out the disparity of punishments given to adults and children. The problem is that nowadays you can be thrown in jail and fined several thousand dollars for doing harm to nobody. How would that teach someone common sense? (Well, I guess if the kid was brilliant, they'd figure out that by hiring a bunch of lobbyists they could take other people's money for nothing)
Of course I'm rather sour on the whole parenting thing. It seems like socially accepted brainwashing to me (Since kids are basically their parents' property.) OTOH I have yet to pull out a complete method for training a kid out of my ass. :p
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Since kids are basically their parents' property.
So you're saying a 5 year old knows whats best for them?(*note* not the same as making them happy)
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so assumeing that ADD is a real disiese,
It's more real than you imagine.
Mis-diagnosis can happen. The problem is that it is so hard to spot at such a young age. That fact that no two minds are identical only makes it harder.
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So you're saying a 5 year old knows whats best for them?(*note* not the same as making them happy)
No.
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what Bob said.
Basically my answer is: I can only guess at how or why, I'm not a expert on the subject, but the simple fact is that most of the world doesn't have a problem with their kids acting like bastards, and they're not pumping them full of Ritalin or abusing them either.
There is a difference between abuse and normal, healthy discipline. And according to my experience, the kids who's parents weren't afraid to lay down the law usually thank their parents for it later on in life.
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Originally posted by Kosh
It's more real than you imagine.
yeah, aparently I ha(ve/d) it.
my point was more to the subjective nature of the diagnosis, you can prety much say any kid has it.
and didn't someone just lecture me about how just because you have a physiological predisposition for something it's no excuse to let it rule your life?
look, I got a bottle of the shit less than ten feet away from me, I was put into 'special' classes when I was in grade school, I got nothing but worse untill I got out of public schools, I've got a hell of a lot more experience with this shit than I think you realise. so I guess the way I think is a disese, yes I need to be cured, I can't spell I can't do arithmatic, but if you want me to integrate a four dimentional spherical expantion or design some sort of procedural geometry or memory manager, peice of cake. this is an abnormality, something I need to be cured of aparently.
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^story of my life.
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so exactly how many people here were ritilin heads as kids, show of hands
*raises hand*
add shouldnt be cured any more than homosexuallity. its a trait that can be used for good or can lead one to destruction. its no different than agression which can be used to bully or in can become a quality for leadership. the problem is with the parents inability to cope with a child's abundant energy. perhaps the parents should take the ritalin, then perhaps they could keep up. its the responsibility of parents to channel their childrens hyperness or find ways to hold their attention. its a sad thing that its become trendy to have a mental disorder. it really takes away from those who have actual problems.
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Jesus... I cant believe some of the ignorant bull**** that is coming out of some peoples' network cards. ADD is a very real disorder, but it is also very illusive. Here's a hint for you guys. ADD has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with hyperactivity, except for the fact that a person (not child) pays just as much attention to everything else as much as his hyperactivity. The reason why you see ADD tied to hyperactivity, is that kids are, by nature, hyperactive compared to adults. Which brings me to my next point. The one main misconception, and a gross one at that, is that children are the vast majority of ADD victims. Quite the contrary; nine times out of ten, the child never grows out of it. Sometimes, an adolescant acquires it after reaching maturity.
Anyway, I was diagnosed with ADD when I was four years old. It has been with me for almost twenty years, and I know more of what it is about, than many of these would-be school counselors. I also find it appalling that there is a ritalin epidemic. Before this travesty, the estimated number was one in every ten thousand, not one in every ten. I believe the 'dated' ideas are far more accurate than the ones today.
Anyway, ADD is not only an affliction, but it can also be a gift. When I was a kid, I was in two special ed classes. One of them was RSP, the other was GATE. I was using them both at the same time, as odd as it sounds. I was using RSP to find better ways of learning how to "book learn", while GATE served to harness the power of non-linear thinking. It was beneficial, but those were some of the hardest times of my life.
Anyway... I just realized that was the third time I said Anyway. ADD does that. Anyway (:D), it seems people have no idea what the disorder is. Attention Deficit Disorder is not what the name implies. Attention is actually an abundant resource, but the victim has focus issues that does not allow them to focus on only one priority. Instead, every surrounding is important. If a person had a real deficit of attention skills, he would most likely be mentally retarded (forgive the non-PC).
It took me 20 minutes to write this post, and I changed the wording about 35 times. Not very efficient.
EDIT: Study my post. Note how out of order and jumbled it is. I am often accused of ranting and rambling, but fact of the matter is, that is the best post I can come up with. It seems 'out there', but for me, it makes perfect sense.
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it is important to note that add used to be refered to as ad/hd, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. which i believe throws alot of people off, i think eventually they blamed the hyperactivity on the parents and eliminated the h. at the time any of us ex-ritilin heads were taking ritilin it was still primarily called ad/hd. i had to put up with special schools and such too. alaskas kinda dumb, the like to put all the reject kids in the same school. `that includes kids with autisim, mental disorders, kids with drug addictions, retardation, kids with violent streaks up the wazoo, extream personalitys that you didnt want to really mix together.. the place was staffed with alot of security and had metal detectors and little padded detention cells (which i spent alot of time in). its the kinda scholl that unless you were big and looked dangerous you were pretty much screwed. the advantage of being tall and weighing in at 260 kinda saved me from all sorts of crap. but i saw little kids beaten by students, ive seens a student stab another in the arm with a pencil. the kinda place you dont want to put your kids in.but it could have been worce, they could have put me in a christian school.
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It is important to note that it is no longer called ADHD because they realized that ADD has no corrolation with hyperactivity. Now, it is either ADD, or ADD with hyperactivity. Often you see someone just staring into space, looking like an imbecile. Unknown to you, that guy's brain activity is going thru the roof. That's how I was.
I never had to deal with ****ed up schools like you poor alaskan bastards did. I was pulled out after 4th grade, because everyone knew I would follow a similar future.
Now here's some food for thought. I have ADD, I also have petty epilepsy. Discuss :D.
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NB: ADD is not equal to ADHD, it's one of 3 forms; IIRC it can be both (hyperactive & attention defecit) or either of the 2. People with ADHD have been documented as having different size, symmetry and brain chemistry, although it's not conclusive that this is specifically due to/is causing ADHD; I think work is being done to identify (it there are) genetic factors, or whether toxins in the womb during development are a factor.
Scuddie's right in highlighting ADHD isn't a childhood affliction; it's just more obvious because adults are better equipped to control & 'handle' it. However, I believe - in the UK figures at least - the figure that continue to have ADHD is ~50%.
I think the UK (diagnosis) rate of ADHD is 1.7%. IIRC, the US prescription rate of Ritalin is something like 7%; that to me indicates something is wrong at one end or the other.
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"ADD is a real disorder/disese"
diferent!=disese
I mean isn't this the sort of atitude that allowed the real eugenic cleanseing? not that mental traits might have some genetic component. (OH! back on topic, hows that for a disorder of deficent atention)
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Originally posted by Scuddie
Jesus... I cant believe some of the ignorant bull**** that is coming out of some peoples' network cards. ADD is a very real disorder, but it is also very illusive. Here's a hint for you guys. ADD has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with hyperactivity, except for the fact that a person (not child) pays just as much attention to everything else as much as his hyperactivity. The reason why you see ADD tied to hyperactivity, is that kids are, by nature, hyperactive compared to adults. Which brings me to my next point. The one main misconception, and a gross one at that, is that children are the vast majority of ADD victims. Quite the contrary; nine times out of ten, the child never grows out of it. Sometimes, an adolescant acquires it after reaching maturity.
Anyway, I was diagnosed with ADD when I was four years old. It has been with me for almost twenty years, and I know more of what it is about, than many of these would-be school counselors. I also find it appalling that there is a ritalin epidemic. Before this travesty, the estimated number was one in every ten thousand, not one in every ten. I believe the 'dated' ideas are far more accurate than the ones today.
Anyway, ADD is not only an affliction, but it can also be a gift. When I was a kid, I was in two special ed classes. One of them was RSP, the other was GATE. I was using them both at the same time, as odd as it sounds. I was using RSP to find better ways of learning how to "book learn", while GATE served to harness the power of non-linear thinking. It was beneficial, but those were some of the hardest times of my life.
Anyway... I just realized that was the third time I said Anyway. ADD does that. Anyway (:D), it seems people have no idea what the disorder is. Attention Deficit Disorder is not what the name implies. Attention is actually an abundant resource, but the victim has focus issues that does not allow them to focus on only one priority. Instead, every surrounding is important. If a person had a real deficit of attention skills, he would most likely be mentally retarded (forgive the non-PC).
It took me 20 minutes to write this post, and I changed the wording about 35 times. Not very efficient.
EDIT: Study my post. Note how out of order and jumbled it is. I am often accused of ranting and rambling, but fact of the matter is, that is the best post I can come up with. It seems 'out there', but for me, it makes perfect sense.
Makes sense to me, and I don't have ADD. People just fear what they don't understand, morons.
Originally posted by Nuke
it is important to note that add used to be refered to as ad/hd, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. which i believe throws alot of people off, i think eventually they blamed the hyperactivity on the parents and eliminated the h. at the time any of us ex-ritilin heads were taking ritilin it was still primarily called ad/hd. i had to put up with special schools and such too. alaskas kinda dumb, the like to put all the reject kids in the same school. `that includes kids with autisim, mental disorders, kids with drug addictions, retardation, kids with violent streaks up the wazoo, extream personalitys that you didnt want to really mix together.. the place was staffed with alot of security and had metal detectors and little padded detention cells (which i spent alot of time in). its the kinda scholl that unless you were big and looked dangerous you were pretty much screwed. the advantage of being tall and weighing in at 260 kinda saved me from all sorts of crap. but i saw little kids beaten by students, ive seens a student stab another in the arm with a pencil. the kinda place you dont want to put your kids in.but it could have been worce, they could have put me in a christian school.
Nuke brings up a very important point. The state likes to keep its subjects--er, children in public schools. They don't like to let them go for some reason. My brother was not suited for public school. He was in it for quite a while. I think they were planning on "mainstreaming" him. We had to fight really hard to get him out of the public school system. Now he attends a school that addresses his needs. He's much better off there.
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Wait...you had to fight to put your brother in private school?
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I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in the sixth grade. One of its symptoms is ADD.
Before that my life was a total wreck. I never did well in school (it's REALLY hard to succeed when I can't concentrate at all). I was always harrased by the other kids because I was the "different" one.
But that diagnosis marked a major turning point in my life. They did not put me on Ridalin, but instead put me on a drug called Dexedrine. It is also used to treat ADD, but it is far more powerful than Ridalin. It is actually an Amphetemine.
It also allowed me to get the support I needed through Special Ed. Gradually I was wiened off of it over the course of several years.
And Liberator, the teachers (except for two of them in my entire K-12 run) were never the problem. I was the problem. Think about that next time you decide to make your distorted, sweeping generalizations about how everything is the teachers fault.
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I have nothing against teachers, my sister is one(special ed to be specific), but I will be damned if I take it easy on them either. My point is that instead of looking deeper into the problem, many just label the child a "problem child" and decide to drug them instead of getting them the help they need.
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It is unfair to label 'many' without evidence to support that, though; I see that quite often, people will take a number of personal biases combined with a number of well publicised exceptional cases, and use that to build some stereotype without actually having a factual basis.
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Aldo is right, Lib. The tone of your first reply in this subject was quite hostile towards teachers, and it appeared to be directed at all teachers.
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the school i was in dumbed down my education by a great deal. i demanded things like more advanced mathmatics. the school itself had alot of real good teachers though. eventually i managed to get into a part time vocational traning center. where i took computer science and electronics classes. it didnt cost me anything and withought it id be much dumber than i am now.
as for what scuddie says about staring off into space i can agree. i still do that. i have to tell my brain to shut up so i can get back to work. usually some music helps my brain quiet down somewhat. but its not neccisarily a bad thing, it just means your a better thinker than worker. i score pretty high in iq tests. i have the gift for recognizing complex patterns in vast quantities of data where your average person sees gibrish. its a usefull trait for jobs such as engineering.
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I'd just like to say that not all kids diagnosed with ADD are merely misunderstood geniuses. There was this kid at my church who claimed to have ADD, took Ritalin, the whole 9 yards... and he was an idiot. It's not that I couldn't appreciate his intelligence or anything like that, he's just a dumb white trash kid who's never had any discipline. So he does whatever he feels like, then gets in trouble for it, then gets prescribed Ritalin which doesn't do anything.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Wait...you had to fight to put your brother in private school?
That is correct. The town has to pay for his education. (Ooh, I knew I forgot to mention something important.) They didn't want to have to pay for a private school. He's autistic, a public school wouldn't do &^@! for him. Public schools just try to "mainstream" gifted or disabled kids. They prefer to deny anything is wrong or different. Their philosophy is, "If we don't see it, it doesn't exist," and so, turn a blind eye to the talented and disabled. It's really sad. There are many others that are still stuck in the public school system that shouldn't be there. :(
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If what you people are saying is true, people with ADD should be given chess classes. Not only does it improve your concentration skills, but it also gives them simple or complex tasks for them to solve, while (for only some people unfortunatly) having fun.
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[q]When I can't stop my fiddlin'
I just takes me Ritalin
I'm poppin' and sailin', man![/q]
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Originally posted by EtherShock
That is correct. The town has to pay for his education. (Ooh, I knew I forgot to mention something important.) They didn't want to have to pay for a private school. He's autistic, a public school wouldn't do &^@! for him. Public schools just try to "mainstream" gifted or disabled kids. They prefer to deny anything is wrong or different. Their philosophy is, "If we don't see it, it doesn't exist," and so, turn a blind eye to the talented and disabled. It's really sad. There are many others that are still stuck in the public school system that shouldn't be there. :(
What state do you live in?
I think my "mainstreaming" went rather well. Graduated high school with a 3.9 communative GPA. Can't complain about that. :)
But you are right, there are some students who just don't belong there.
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Jersey.
Interesting, do you have a very mild case of Asperger's? Maybe you were misdiagnosed?
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I was for sure diagnosed correctly. I was told that I have a mild case of it (or something like that).
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Originally posted by EtherShock
That is correct. The town has to pay for his education. (Ooh, I knew I forgot to mention something important.) They didn't want to have to pay for a private school. He's autistic, a public school wouldn't do &^@! for him. Public schools just try to "mainstream" gifted or disabled kids. They prefer to deny anything is wrong or different. Their philosophy is, "If we don't see it, it doesn't exist," and so, turn a blind eye to the talented and disabled. It's really sad. There are many others that are still stuck in the public school system that shouldn't be there. :(
The problem is though that very few private schools are equipped to handle such students in most of the US.
...and homeschooling doesn't work. Unless both parents have tons of time to spend with their child and have an education *higher* than a bachelor's degree. The only success stories I've seen are generally from scientists doing field work and raising their child, not ma and pa kettle teaching their son or daughter to shelter them from the evil world.
The best thing to do for most gifted or disabled children are extra-scholastic activities. For gifted students programs like running start, so that the person is going to college and having classes that challenge them as soon as possible, are also the best possible things to do.
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Originally posted by EtherShock
That is correct. The town has to pay for his education. (Ooh, I knew I forgot to mention something important.) They didn't want to have to pay for a private school. He's autistic, a public school wouldn't do &^@! for him. Public schools just try to "mainstream" gifted or disabled kids. They prefer to deny anything is wrong or different. Their philosophy is, "If we don't see it, it doesn't exist," and so, turn a blind eye to the talented and disabled. It's really sad. There are many others that are still stuck in the public school system that shouldn't be there. :(
I wonder if there is a less-than-worthless special needs schooling system in the US. Here in CA, if you are in special ed, you are not given an education at all. Their logic is, "If they have a hard time learning, it must be best to take it slow." Problem is, most kids aren't even challenged at all. They spend a whole many years being taught the same thing... Fundamentals, nothing more.
My sister is in the 9th grade, all she knows are multiplication tables. She doesn't mind, because school is more of a playground to her, and she doesn't have any obligation to do anything in her classes. Do you know how "disabled" she is? She hasn't seen anything more than common division in her school, yet I was able to teach her linear variable substitution in less than 15 minutes! Her main problem though is that it takes her too long to do homework, so the special ed program decided to give her homework that takes her all of five minutes. And at this rate, looks like she is not eligible for graduation.
To compare, the nothing-special private school I enrolled in taught me the 38 personal pronouns in my first week, while my sister wasn't even told what a pronoun is. This leads me to believe that most public school teachers just don't care. I only wish this little private school didn't shut down, else we would have enrolled my sister in it a long time ago.
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Originally posted by Scuddie
I wonder if there is a less-than-worthless special needs schooling system in the US. Here in CA, if you are in special ed, you are not given an education at all. Their logic is, "If they have a hard time learning, it must be best to take it slow." Problem is, most kids aren't even challenged at all. They spend a whole many years being taught the same thing... Fundamentals, nothing more.
My sister is in the 9th grade, all she knows are multiplication tables. She doesn't mind, because school is more of a playground to her, and she doesn't have any obligation to do anything in her classes. Do you know how "disabled" she is? She hasn't seen anything more than common division in her school, yet I was able to teach her linear variable substitution in less than 15 minutes! Her main problem though is that it takes her too long to do homework, so the special ed program decided to give her homework that takes her all of five minutes. And at this rate, looks like she is not eligible for graduation.
To compare, the nothing-special private school I enrolled in taught me the 38 personal pronouns in my first week, while my sister wasn't even told what a pronoun is. This leads me to believe that most public school teachers just don't care. I only wish this little private school didn't shut down, else we would have enrolled my sister in it a long time ago.
Is your sister in a regular public school class or a special education class? I'm a bit confused on that.
My fathers a public school teacher. He's seen pretty much everything from autism to down syndrom and the like. When you have a class of 30 students (as is the norm around here) it becomes diffcult to pander to the special requirements of all the students. I think my dad really tries to do a good job of engaging the students from all ability levels as much as possible (with some extra project responsibilities for the more gifted students) but it can be difficult.
For me in school I had my share of problems. I wasn't very attentive, I didn't do a very good job of listening, I was bored constantly but of the three times I was tested for gifted behavior I came up fairly normal. To this day I'm still not sure how my brain particularly works...its a very odd one. It must work pretty well since I'm now a university graduate but public school was a pain for me in both the overly challenging and the under challenging areas depending on subject. But I never acted out either. So teachers probably had a bit of trouble trying to get something that'd catch my attention. Again, in a class of 30 students, and no special needs students in any of my classes ever, it was surely difficult.
I'm a firm believer that both nature and nuture define someones persona. Blaming strictly based on genetics is silly...one can be taught, trained, and work through whatever nature has given you in the way of geneti
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Originally posted by Scuddie
I wonder if there is a less-than-worthless special needs schooling system in the US. Here in CA, if you are in special ed, you are not given an education at all. Their logic is, "If they have a hard time learning, it must be best to take it slow." Problem is, most kids aren't even challenged at all. They spend a whole many years being taught the same thing... Fundamentals, nothing more.
My sister is in the 9th grade, all she knows are multiplication tables. She doesn't mind, because school is more of a playground to her, and she doesn't have any obligation to do anything in her classes. Do you know how "disabled" she is? She hasn't seen anything more than common division in her school, yet I was able to teach her linear variable substitution in less than 15 minutes! Her main problem though is that it takes her too long to do homework, so the special ed program decided to give her homework that takes her all of five minutes. And at this rate, looks like she is not eligible for graduation.
To compare, the nothing-special private school I enrolled in taught me the 38 personal pronouns in my first week, while my sister wasn't even told what a pronoun is. This leads me to believe that most public school teachers just don't care. I only wish this little private school didn't shut down, else we would have enrolled my sister in it a long time ago.
Is your sister in a regular public school class or a special education class? I'm a bit confused on that.
My fathers a public school teacher. He's seen pretty much everything from autism to down syndrom and the like. When you have a class of 30 students (as is the norm around here) it becomes diffcult to pander to the special requirements of all the students. I think my dad really tries to do a good job of engaging the students from all ability levels as much as possible (with some extra project responsibilities for the more gifted students) but it can be difficult.
For me in school I had my share of problems. I wasn't very attentive, I didn't do a very good job of listening, I was bored constantly but of the three times I was tested for gifted behavior I came up fairly normal. To this day I'm still not sure how my brain particularly works...its a very odd one. It must work pretty well since I'm now a university graduate but public school was a pain for me in both the overly challenging and the under challenging areas depending on subject. But I never acted out either. So teachers probably had a bit of trouble trying to get something that'd catch my attention. Again, in a class of 30 students, and no special needs students in any of my classes ever, it was surely difficult.
I'm a firm believer that both nature and nuture define someones persona. Blaming strictly based on genetics is silly...one can be taught, trained, and work through whatever nature has given you in the way of genetics.
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Originally posted by Scuddie
I wonder if there is a less-than-worthless special needs schooling system in the US. Here in CA, if you are in special ed, you are not given an education at all. Their logic is, "If they have a hard time learning, it must be best to take it slow." Problem is, most kids aren't even challenged at all. They spend a whole many years being taught the same thing... Fundamentals, nothing more.
My sister is in the 9th grade, all she knows are multiplication tables. She doesn't mind, because school is more of a playground to her, and she doesn't have any obligation to do anything in her classes. Do you know how "disabled" she is? She hasn't seen anything more than common division in her school, yet I was able to teach her linear variable substitution in less than 15 minutes! Her main problem though is that it takes her too long to do homework, so the special ed program decided to give her homework that takes her all of five minutes. And at this rate, looks like she is not eligible for graduation.
To compare, the nothing-special private school I enrolled in taught me the 38 personal pronouns in my first week, while my sister wasn't even told what a pronoun is. This leads me to believe that most public school teachers just don't care. I only wish this little private school didn't shut down, else we would have enrolled my sister in it a long time ago.
:eek: Wow, I am shocked. That's really disturbing. That doesn't sound like the liberal California I know. I know Jersey has one of the best education systems for special ed. There wasn't another private school nearby? You live in Sacramento. There had to be more than one.
Originally posted by Ace
The problem is though that very few private schools are equipped to handle such students in most of the US.
...and homeschooling doesn't work. Unless both parents have tons of time to spend with their child and have an education *higher* than a bachelor's degree. The only success stories I've seen are generally from scientists doing field work and raising their child, not ma and pa kettle teaching their son or daughter to shelter them from the evil world.
The best thing to do for most gifted or disabled children are extra-scholastic activities. For gifted students programs like running start, so that the person is going to college and having classes that challenge them as soon as possible, are also the best possible things to do.
There are also many that can't afford private schooling.
I'm not advocating homeschooling. However, there has to be a better way to educate than the current public education system. [conspiracy]It's based on the Prussian system, which prepares you for military service, teaches you to take orders, and not to question.[/conspiracy]
I met a girl while I was in California. She was very pretty. She told me she had been home schooled, but the way she explained it made it sound like she saw a teacher regularly that gave her work, as opposed to being taught by her parents. The freedom allowed her to do other things, such as travel to other countries. She seemed very smart and quite mature for her age. Too bad she disappeared shortly after we met. u_u
Like you said though, most are not qualifed to be teaching their own kids. *Shudders at the thought of the masses being preached religion* Anyway, there has to be a mean. Neither extreme is good.
In my state, special ed/alternative schools are at least an option. I guess not everyone is as fortunate. There's a famous school at Princeton, but my brother didn't get into it. The wait period is forever because of the high demand, but he's in a good school. He'll attend until he's 21. They also teach him a job for the future.
Originally posted by Kosh
I was for sure diagnosed correctly. I was told that I have a mild case of it (or something like that).
I figured, if you had any more than a mild case you wouldn't be on this board. Yours is a case where mainstreaming worked.
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Originally posted by EtherShock
:eek: Wow, I am shocked. That's really disturbing. That doesn't sound like the liberal California I know. I know Jersey has one of the best education systems for special ed. There wasn't another private school nearby? You live in Sacramento. There had to be more than one.
...
There are also many that can't afford private schooling.
True dat. The one I attended cost $200/mo tuition. Most places around here are $600+, and we aren't that rich.I met a girl while I was in California. She was very pretty. She told me she had been home schooled, but the way she explained it made it sound like she saw a teacher regularly that gave her work, as opposed to being taught by her parents. The freedom allowed her to do other things, such as travel to other countries. She seemed very smart and quite mature for her age. Too bad she disappeared shortly after we met. u_u
Yes, that's how it works in CA. In fact, after the private school I attended disbanded, I opted to attend Independant Study. Each week, you spend about an hour with your assigned teacher, one on one, discussing the lesson plans for the next week. The lessons are usually consolidated. In one week, you are expected to complete 1.5 - 3 high school units, usually in one subject, or distributed between two of your most difficult subjects. For example, I completed the Geometry course in three weeks, while it took a couple months to complete pre-Civil War US history and economic study for the year. However, this requires a strong personal responsibility. Many a time when I almost didnt finish the work for the week, because of poor time management habits. Also, it was no coincidence that your friend was more mature than most her age. In these cases, there is nothing to hinder your developmental growth (read: The public school playground). AFAIK, traditional home schooling isn't recognized in CA.
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Yes, that's what it was called, Independent Study! I can see how it isn't for everyone. That should've been obvious. Still, there have to be good alternatives to the current public school system. It can't be the only option for the masses.