Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Lone Knight on May 30, 2005, 08:51:24 am
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Hey everyone, you know how in FRED missions you can only have a certain amount of ships until the mission goes haywire?
I think it's 64 ships total(?). Anyway, anyone here know if anyone has ever changed it so that you could have MASSIVE space battle with perhaps hundreds of fighters?
Just wanted to know.....if not, can it be done?
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Ah, the old Battle Of Endor syndrome.
In a nutshell: no.
Several reasons are present for this:
1. BoE missions are generally heavily system-dependant, and seeing over 10 capships in a single go slows things to a crawl. Add to this the hi-poly models and other stuff currently being used, and you have a recipe for a CTD.
2. After a certain subsystem limit, the game stops calculating collisions; hence weapons will stop firing and will tend to go through ships while doing no damage.
3. The engine is simply not built for such a large number of craft. It will tend to CTD above a certain limit, depending on one's system.
4. BoE games rarely are fun. Although there are a few that get the combination right, few usually do.
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*sigh
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I made a test BoE mission 15vs15+1 capship thing. I had every single detail up, and my computer was rendering every single poly. Add that with AA and AF, and it was STILL running well! You seriously underestimate the power of Freespace.
Also, the best way to do a BoE mission is have a bunch of capships, and assign a few waves for the cruisers and corvettes so that the action is prolonged without the loss of performance. Also, only 6 fighter wings would be needed. Since you would usually be around those fighters, 24 fighters around you is enough. Besides, you could just set the wave count to be high, and have the fighters get launched from near their destroyers, without a warp-in effect. When done right, you have great performance in a very large battle. Setting a high inaccuracy rate for the powerful weapons of the capships is a great way to prolong battles, too. To make the users go into dogfights without dying every time, wingmen with a powerful AI and a lowish wave count, versus enemy fighters with a crappy AI and a high wave count is a fun way to keep the player alive and busy.
I'l shut up now.
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I still think that there'd be laggage....
I'm gonna try what you did. Okay, quick questions. How do you set the guns on cap ships to be very inaccurate?
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I have never, ever, ever seen a BoE mission in Freespace 2. I'm convinced that there were 1 or 2 infamous examples in the very beginning of the FS community (maybe in FS1), that scared everybody else away from them.
In fact, I'd love to see someone give a shot at making a well-designed one if for no other reason than to add variety to the rather-cliche`d set of mission types. (Yay, another escort mission)
Also, you can actually give the player stuff to do that'll turn the tide of such a battle. (SEXP in some effects of blowing up capship subsystems, and decrease the damage of cap-killa weapons to keep things going on longer)
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Edit the tables. It has been forever since I had done it, so don't come to me for a tutorial. If you get to the right table, most of it should be self-explanatory.
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Practically the whole point of spaceship fights are the BoE missions. The community could indeed benefit from a few well-made ones, imho.
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*coughhackcough* (http://www.geocities.com/ngtm1r/Homecoming.zip)
Somewhat modest for the title of BoE, but oh well...
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Considering the Battle of Endor was my favorite sci-fi space battle of all time, I'm always curious as to why its name is used as an insult. :p If the Star Wars mod could pull off the actual Battle of Endor, I think it would go over amazingly well. :D
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Battle of Endor Syndrome (http://www.volitionwatch.com/articles/ArticleDisp.php?ID=26)
Keep in mind that this was written over 6 years ago and geared toward FS1 missions. Some stuff has changed since then... e.g. FS2 has beams and modern computers can handle more ships. Some stuff has not... e.g. balance and design.
A good BOE mission is not impossible, just very difficult.
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Would it be possible to create a “fake” BoE mission through background images?
Basically what I am thinking of is a mission that has the “feel” of being a massive battle but only a few ships are really in the mission the rest are just background images. Would this work or, would this look bad/ cause problems?
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It would work, but it kind of bypasses the original point.
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Okay, then, guys. I'll try to make a BOE Freespace 2 mission as best I can....as a matter of fact, I'll make it kick a$$ with audio voices, briefings, plot, the whole nine yards. For everything to look awesome and work smoothly, it'll take me some time, but when I finish I'll submit it here!
How 'bout that!?
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Well, it certainly can't hurt to try. Just be ready to put in a lot of hard work to balance it well and make it an enjoyable mission to play. :)
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Hmm...well, you guys have really got me thinkin'! I've decided not only to make a single mission but a whole (small) campaign that will place you as a fighter pilot stationed in Capella during the whole crisis. Your missions will include the evacuation of the Capella planet(s). Anyone know how many colonized planets there are in Capella at this time?
It will be a series of missions, and I hope to have at least two BOE stlye missions that work.
I'd like to have actual audio voices for it, so if anyone knows someone who does that, or who wants to help me with the voices, feel free to leave a post here or to email me at
[email protected]
if you know anyone who does voices, etc inform them of this.
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I'm sure you can taste the spam already.
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i made a lucy vs 75 bones on my old, now deceased comp - no lag at all
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How about a battle taking place inside the cage of one of the Sathani? Another Sathanas could be pointed at your battle, shooting at anyone that leaves the saftey of the cage. The only thing holding you back from death is the fact that the Sathanas doesn't want to miss in its beam attack, therefore hitting the other Sathanas. I bet you could stick a couple corvettes, a few cruisers, and about 5 fighter wings in that Sathanas cage.
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I have always loved BOE missions since back in the 90's with the first X-Wing. Computers know can handle quite large battles ala Infryno mission 14?
I actually have set one up in a mission I made to test my new ships and weapons in Infryno for the Sons of Nubia mod. WOWIE! SO MUCH more fun than ever before. Yes balance can be an issue, but that just mission design.
Actually I remember an old X-wing mission where a big battle is going on about 5 clicks from where you jump in and you have to chase down some TIE Bombers before they get to kill the involved corvette.
Missions that have lots of ships can still have player specific goals
that make it more than just kill everyone and then jump out.
A friend of mine made an old mini campaign a while back that was about as realistic as they come(He is military). One of the things I liked was you were stationed on one cap ship and you ran operations that led to these BOE type missions with attainable goals. Most battles ended in the loser retreating realistically and not just getting killed every time.
After playing the campaign a few times I realized he set it up so that the players and ai would have a certain amount of time to complete their mission, if they did not do it in that varied time limit, the next mission would branch according to the results. When I finally looked at the campaign file in fred I was suprised he had branches for just about every mission. It was the coolest. To bad that HD fried and I lost touch with him :mad:
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It is possible to make decent BoE missions, but most end up being very dull. There are a few good ones around, though. The second-last mission in Inferno is one (though I found it simply too hard), and there's a mission which Goober found in the archives called Project Roadblock which is very good.
Lone Knight: good luck with that, though getting voice-acting done will be tricky....
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Originally posted by Mongoose
Considering the Battle of Endor was my favorite sci-fi space battle of all time, I'm always curious as to why its name is used as an insult. :p If the Star Wars mod could pull off the actual Battle of Endor, I think it would go over amazingly well. :D
We would be glad if we were able to release anything at all. There is no way we can make a Battle of Endor mission with all the canon class ships.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
Considering the Battle of Endor was my favorite sci-fi space battle of all time, I'm always curious as to why its name is used as an insult. :p If the Star Wars mod could pull off the actual Battle of Endor, I think it would go over amazingly well. :D
Because a mission with the same characteristics would be, erm, crap. In a nutshell. The player would have to just sit there watching the explosions. You'd be better off with a cutscene instead.
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^
Yes, that's also a point.
but let's see what you are going to do. In retrospect we are cleverer. :p
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I wouldn't mind too much just flying around and looking at explosions, as long as I got to take down a few TIEs while I'm at it. :p
After replaying Derelict, I think the second-to-last mission could almost be qualified as a BOE mission where the player has an active role. There are several Shivan capital ships in the area at a time, but the player has at there disposal three Mjolnirs slaved to TAGs. You get to play an active role in the massive beam battle. I don't know about anyone else, but I found that mission to be very enjoyable. :)
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I had an idea for a BoE mission. You have three small fleets (about 10 cap ships) on each side, making six "fleets". All have their adjoining fighter wings. The entire mission unfolds as the three fleets split to accomplish different objectives, and the player and his wing end up getting called back and forth with things like "Assist First fleet, escort third fleet to location, launch an assault with second fleet". It's too detailed to explain right now, but then it eventually climaxes in the middle, when everyone meets in a giant flanking maneuver.
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A mission like that would span across 50-150 kilometers. How is Alpha 1 going to find the other fleets? The scanners scan only so far. It would really suck if you bumped into an enemy fleet with no backup! Some of the fleets would be so far away that they shouldn't be rendered, but it makes little difference. Something that far away would be 25 polygons, anyway.
And, exactly how large is the FS2 "playing box"? It would be cool if you could try to search the entire mission for the secret cargo box hidden among the 50 other boxes.
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Originally posted by Lone Knight
Hmm...well, you guys have really got me thinkin'! I've decided not only to make a single mission but a whole (small) campaign that will place you as a fighter pilot stationed in Capella during the whole crisis. Your missions will include the evacuation of the Capella planet(s). Anyone know how many colonized planets there are in Capella at this time?
It will be a series of missions, and I hope to have at least two BOE stlye missions that work.
I'd like to have actual audio voices for it, so if anyone knows someone who does that, or who wants to help me with the voices, feel free to leave a post here or to email me at
[email protected]
if you know anyone who does voices, etc inform them of this.
Just a small word of advice to you which you can choose to ignore if you really want: start small, and build your ambitions after that. Start with that single mission and build it, make it great; then maybe move on to a few mission stringed together, see if you can make that work. Studio voices are very, very far down the line - if they were easy and straightforward to do, you would see every single mod hosted here using them. It turns out that hardly any of them, not even some of the biggest ones, have voice acting included. Maybe that gives you a hint towards the difficulty of the task you're setting out to accomplish.
Not to diminish your enthusiasm, mind you. Just be smart about it and begin with baby steps. :yes:
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
I had an idea for a BoE mission. You have three small fleets (about 10 cap ships) on each side, making six "fleets". All have their adjoining fighter wings. The entire mission unfolds as the three fleets split to accomplish different objectives, and the player and his wing end up getting called back and forth with things like "Assist First fleet, escort third fleet to location, launch an assault with second fleet". It's too detailed to explain right now, but then it eventually climaxes in the middle, when everyone meets in a giant flanking maneuver.
I like the idea, but I wouldn't use "fleets" as such. Squadrons would be a better idea (read up on the Battle of Jutland for how it worked in a modern sea battle - the last ever traditional fleet-vs-fleet battle in fact) - capship wings in effect, that carry out tasks as groups. Cruisers would be excellent ships for this - a squadron of three or four Fenris/Aeolus together would make a powerful unit, and their size would mean that you wouldn't be filling the playing space with capship (destroyers would be far too big).
One destroyer or carrier would make up the command group, with perhaps a cruiser or two in attendance. Then you could have a corvette squadron, that would be the main battle unit (speed and firepower). Then two or more cruiser squadrons would be the "cover", providing fire support or fighter suppression where needed, and plug any gaps/ launch flank attacks. The player would have to fend off bombers, destroy beam turrents (love that smiley!), disable certain ships etc.
Lone Knight: heed the words of Steak, for he is wise indeed. :nod:
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Fleet 1 should be made up of three Fenrisi, three Leviathans, two Mentus, and two Deimoses. Fleet 2 would be four Deimoses and three Sobeks. Fleet 3 would be made up of two Deimoses, two Orions, and two Hecates. In each fleet, one ship should have some weapons replaced with stronger versions. For example, One of the second fleet's Sobeks could have its AAAF beams exchanged for AAAH beams except for one which would become a SVas beam. The hitpoints would be increased and the explosion intensified in order to make the changes realalistic. Just a few ideas, though.
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The problem with most BoE missions is that the designer invariably ends up giving the player some lame objective like take care of the never ending stream of respawning fighters.
A cool BoE mission would have the player actually involved in the main fight, by taking out subsystems, launching suprise attacks, etc. The mission should also take awhile, a good 5-10 minutes of constant changing, rather than the short three minute boiling pot of explosions that most of thse types of missions turn out to be.
EDIT: If you want to make a good BoE mission, go play Homeworld 2 or Nexus: The Jupiter Incident, and mold it after those fleet battles :)
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Don't use BReds, BFReds, LRBGreens, or BFGreens. All of those are quite powerful. If you have to use one of those, you need a very good reason.
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Originally posted by Dark RevenantX
Fleet 1 should be made up of three Fenrisi, three Leviathans, two Mentus, and two Deimoses. Fleet 2 would be four Deimoses and three Sobeks. Fleet 3 would be made up of two Deimoses, two Orions, and two Hecates. In each fleet, one ship should have some weapons replaced with stronger versions. For example, One of the second fleet's Sobeks could have its AAAF beams exchanged for AAAH beams except for one which would become a SVas beam. The hitpoints would be increased and the explosion intensified in order to make the changes realalistic. Just a few ideas, though.
I think that's far too many ships, and too many very large ships at that. They'd take up so much space that the player would be spending more time flying to, from and around ships to actually do much fighting. It'd be a horrendous task trying to make that fun. That said, if you think you can pull it off then go for it...
UT: Well said. A mission like this would take an awful lot of scripting to get it working well.
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Hey, just wondering, wasn't there a user-made campaign that involved a virus of some sort being spread around space? I think I can remember playing it years back, but I've played so many I don't know if it was about a virus.
Setekh> I hear ya, bud. I'm planning on taking heed to your words.
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You could have a dogfight go inbetween two destroyers that are duking it out.
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Originally posted by Lone Knight
Hey, just wondering, wasn't there a user-made campaign that involved a virus of some sort being spread around space? I think I can remember playing it years back, but I've played so many I don't know if it was about a virus.
Setekh> I hear ya, bud. I'm planning on taking heed to your words.
I think you're referring to The Apocalypse Project, specifically the Beast (IIRC), the virus from the Homeworld expansion pack.
http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/tap/
It's been rather quiet recently, but I think they're still working on it...
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
A cool BoE mission would have the player actually involved in the main fight, by taking out subsystems, launching suprise attacks, etc. The mission should also take awhile, a good 5-10 minutes of constant changing, rather than the short three minute boiling pot of explosions that most of thse types of missions turn out to be.
*coughhackcoughforthesecondtime* (http://www.geocities.com/ngtm1r/Homecoming.zip)
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Battle of Endor Syndrome (http://www.volitionwatch.com/articles/ArticleDisp.php?ID=26)
Keep in mind that this was written over 6 years ago and geared toward FS1 missions. Some stuff has changed since then... e.g. FS2 has beams and modern computers can handle more ships. Some stuff has not... e.g. balance and design.
A good BOE mission is not impossible, just very difficult.
I think it would be a lot easier to do right in the TBP mod, with flyable Whitestars.