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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Swamp_Thing on June 17, 2005, 01:40:43 pm

Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 17, 2005, 01:40:43 pm
I am proud to present y´all, with the ML-16 Medium Laser big arse kicking gun!!
 :biggrin1:

It was a major pain to make, but i think i captured the look and feel of the gun. Considering how i only had this one picture to guide me through.
It´s not textured, i just painted some spots to capture the feel of it. The original has a sort of belt in the back, to help suspend the weapon from the user´s arm, but i thought it could do without since it would be mostly out of sight anyway, when rendered on-screen. The left side of the weapon i had to improvise and use my imagination.
Now, who volunteers to skin this thing?

(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/ML_16Original.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/ML16_shot1.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/ML16_shot2.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/ML16_shot4.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

:nod:

EDIT:
I know everybody calls this the ML-16 laser weapon, but if we look closer, it looks more like a plasma thrower, doesn´t it? Look at the muzzle. It´s too big a caliber to fire a thin beam of laser. It looks more like it would fire a big plasma ball. What do you think?
Anyone have Hallfight handy? If so, could you check to see what kind of "ammo" does the weapon fire, when the shivans attack?

(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/ML16_shot5.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: karajorma on June 17, 2005, 01:44:48 pm
Why does it need skinning? Looks fine as it is :) :yes:
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: pyro-manic on June 17, 2005, 01:48:29 pm
I really like it, but there's no way it could be an ML-16. That's like saying that a modern soldier could carry a Vulcan 6-barrel cannon (or even a Browning .50) - they're way too big...

Also, I'm guessing the first pic is from Hallfight? They were projectile weapons, not lasers.

Good model though. :)

EDIT: Ah, you've edited already. Yes, they fire bullets of some type, and at least one of them has a grenade launcher attachment.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 17, 2005, 01:56:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic
I really like it, but there's no way it could be an ML-16. That's like saying that a modern soldier could carry a Vulcan 6-barrel cannon (or even a Browning .50) - they're way too big...

Also, I'm guessing the first pic is from Hallfight? They were projectile weapons, not lasers.

Good model though. :)

EDIT: Ah, you've edited already. Yes, they fire bullets of some type, and at least one of them has a grenade launcher attachment.


(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/MaybeChaingun1.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)


I always thought this one to be a sort of chaingun. I guess the bullits could be from this one. I don´t see a barrel of that caliber firing bullits, though. Grenades maybe.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: pyro-manic on June 17, 2005, 02:07:27 pm
Bullets and one grenade are the only things that get fired. :) I think the bullets may either be low velocity, large calibre, or high velocity and small calibre. I think they could be magnetically fired (ie railguns), which would explain the large bulky barrels - you need lots of space for the electromagnets and the cooling system...

Checking again, there are two people with those bigger guns, and three with the smaller type. They all seem to fire bullets, but I can't tell where the grenade comes from.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Unknown Target on June 17, 2005, 02:13:27 pm
Wow, now I feel especially lazy :p Looks neat ! :) But it's definately bullets and maybe grenades.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 17, 2005, 02:36:56 pm
Damn!! I just found "Hallfight" hidden in my computer. I wish i had seen that before. The tube on the side of the weapon goes all the way to the back of the weapon, not to the side. I guess i have some work to do...
Oh, and it only fires single shot bursts,( like a shotgun does, or a grenade launcher) wich could be a sort of energy grenade. The bigger gun fires big ammounts of prejectiles, thus a chaingun is a possibility.
Now i gotta go to work...
:nervous:
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Nuke on June 17, 2005, 03:47:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic
I really like it, but there's no way it could be an ML-16. That's like saying that a modern soldier could carry a Vulcan 6-barrel cannon (or even a Browning .50) - they're way too big...

Also, I'm guessing the first pic is from Hallfight? They were projectile weapons, not lasers.

Good model though. :)

EDIT: Ah, you've edited already. Yes, they fire bullets of some type, and at least one of them has a grenade launcher attachment.


a soldier could carry a gau-17 minigun, they are only 40 lbs (ammoi s extra), however they probibly couldnt fire it withough some kind of mounting system. i see a laser as having little or no kick.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: TopAce on June 17, 2005, 03:48:22 pm
This is dangerous. Children are not allowed to play with it.

Nice model, really impressed. :yes2::eek2::yes:
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Nuke on June 17, 2005, 03:51:00 pm
indeed the model does kick ass :D
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Gai Daigoji on June 17, 2005, 04:29:11 pm
And, if all things continue to proceed as smoothly as they are, you will have a working chance to play with this gun in the planned Hegemonia demo :p
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Cobra on June 17, 2005, 05:09:46 pm
what's the poly count? it looks about 10,000+.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Nuke on June 17, 2005, 05:46:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Gai Daigoji
And, if all things continue to proceed as smoothly as they are, you will have a working chance to play with this gun in the planned Hegemonia demo :p


what engine did you alll decide to use, have to make sure i have it when the mod comes out :D
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: pyro-manic on June 17, 2005, 06:43:30 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Nuke


a soldier could carry a gau-17 minigun, they are only 40 lbs (ammoi s extra), however they probibly couldnt fire it withough some kind of mounting system. i see a laser as having little or no kick.


Recoil isn't what I was concerned about, more the sheer bulk. :) 40lbs is pushing the upper limit for a personal weapon, and it's not something you'd want to be carrying for very long. I don't think it's practical to have a weapon you can barely lift, certainly not in a shock/assault role like the Hallfight marines. You need something light and agile...
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 17, 2005, 07:01:24 pm
The minigun in Predator... yeah, what that guy is doing is humanly impossible. For one thing, he's firing blanks, not spitting lead. There's a significant difference, namely being thrown on your back when you're firing live rounds without an emplacement. So yes, recoil is a problem, in concordance with bulk.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: aldo_14 on June 17, 2005, 07:35:41 pm
I think as well the bullet casings would severly injure or burn the soldier, and the ammo (that could be carried) would last mere seconds.

EDIT; from IMDB trivia
[q] The weapon Blain (Jesse Ventura) is using is a minigun. This is a weapon most commonly mounted on the side of a helicopter (or an aircraft carrier) and many, many modifications had to be made to make it useable in the film. It was powered via an electrical cable hidden down the front of Blain's trousers. Despite firing blanks, the actor had to wear a bulletproof vest to protect him from the violently ejecting cartridges. Had he been using live ammunition, the recoil would have been approximately 110 kg sideways force - about the same as lying on your back and trying to push an American football player into the air. Ammo for the 20-second firing sequence would have been 2,000 rounds x 12.5 grams per bullet = 25kg, all of which had to be carried in Ventura's backpack. Since the movie was made, a model of this weapon has been designed, changing the caliber and exchanging the electric motor for a 2 cycle gas engine, similiar to that of a weed-eater. It has never entered service in any armed forces, since the weapon is excessively heavy and impractical in an infantry role.[/q]
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 17, 2005, 08:03:45 pm
32 years have passed since the great war, dont worry if it doesnt look exactly like the ones in hallfight.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Pnakotus on June 17, 2005, 09:23:16 pm
Perhaps the projectiles are large and slow to minimise recoil in zero-g?  They were using stickyshoes, heavy recoil might be a problem?

Excellent, excellent model, by the way.  :)
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Carl on June 17, 2005, 09:43:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic


Recoil isn't what I was concerned about, more the sheer bulk. :) 40lbs is pushing the upper limit for a personal weapon, and it's not something you'd want to be carrying for very long. I don't think it's practical to have a weapon you can barely lift, certainly not in a shock/assault role like the Hallfight marines. You need something light and agile...


but remember that hallfight there was no gravity, soit doesn't matter how heavy it is. maybe it was a weapon designed for use in zero G.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Cannikin on June 18, 2005, 02:33:59 am
Even with no gravity, an excessively large weapon causes many problems due to mass and thus inertia. A very massive weapon requires a lot of force to move around at any decent speed even without weight so the movements of a soldier carrying it around will be signifcantly slowed. And just the same, you require a lot of force to slow a massive object down. Sudden movements may have undesirable side effects, like if you whirl around and try to stop quickly, the momentum of the gun might just carry you off with it.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 18, 2005, 05:33:53 am
After watching Hallfight for a few times, i noticed some inconsistencies. For example, the model animation of the soldier when firing is not matched by the muzzle flashes. The animation makes it look like the guy is firing a shotgun, with a big recoil, but the muzzle flashes look like he´s firing a continuous burst of projectiles.
There is also a scene where one of the soldiers moves his arm around pointing the way, just as if he didn´t have a 50 pound gun strapped to his arm. The weapon looked weightless.
Anyway, we can´t dwell on these inconsistencies, otherwise we would never reach a consensus and get the work done. I guess we have to pick a side and stick to it.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: RED DIAMOND on June 18, 2005, 07:53:48 am
Really excellent model work mate.:yes:
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Setekh on June 18, 2005, 08:25:07 am
She's a beauty, nice work - especially off that single source. :):yes:
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Lone Knight on June 18, 2005, 08:36:46 am
You can also get a good look at a gun in the mini cutscene that can be found on the Silent Threat Disk.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Hippo on June 18, 2005, 09:11:37 am
Sorry, but that is NOT the ML-16. The ML-16 looks like this;
(http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/images/weaponry/ml-16.jpg)

which is MUCH closer to the second hallfight picture you posted. The one you modeled is also seen in the run video, but it is clearly not the ML-16...
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: TopAce on June 18, 2005, 09:32:21 am
I remember a talk about marines using ML-16s in the Hall Fight. Maybe he based his idea on it.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 18, 2005, 09:48:21 am
Actually, i don´t think it´s the ML-16 either. As many pointed out already, having a marine carrying a weapon that is fitted onto a fighter seems impossible.
I only called it ML-16 in this thread, because that´s the name most people relate to.  If i had my way, i would call that a plasma thrower, a kind of energy grenade launcher.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Charismatic on June 18, 2005, 01:01:52 pm
Great model, btw.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Gai Daigoji on June 18, 2005, 03:41:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Nuke


what engine did you alll decide to use, have to make sure i have it when the mod comes out :D


We're using the Unreal 2004 engine :)
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Nuke on June 18, 2005, 04:45:14 pm
good, saves me the trouble of buying another game :D
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Fade Rathnik on June 18, 2005, 05:08:04 pm
The Marine Rifle depicted looks like the ML-16 mesh with a power cell and handles. Likely the mesh was just re-used. But it could easily explaned as a scaled down version of a proven weapon for personal use.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Mefustae on June 18, 2005, 10:02:28 pm
True, i mean, how do we know that it's not just a modified, scaled-down model of the ML-16, for proof, look at how the gun does absolutely jack all to the Shivans, quite a bit like when it's mounted on your ship...:P

...You could call it the ML-16, but modified, like the PML-16D; the 'Personal Medium Laser 16, model D'
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 19, 2005, 12:39:37 am
Didn't the weapon used against the Shivan need to charge up? How was it a grenade?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 19, 2005, 03:58:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Didn't the weapon used against the Shivan need to charge up? How was it a grenade?


Charge? Where did you saw that? I scrutinized Hallfight from top to bottom, and didn´t find anything remotelly resembling charging.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 19, 2005, 01:56:22 pm
Listen as the Marine screams "DIE!" You can hear a humming, buzzing sound that ends when the weapon she's holding fires, downing the shivan.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: JoeLo on June 19, 2005, 05:26:33 pm
In theory, a soldier could carry a scaled down version of the ML-16 laser, that uses the same principal of fire, power source, and every thing else, its just smaller.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Boomer on June 19, 2005, 07:41:53 pm
Quote
what engine did you alll decide to use, have to make sure i have it when the mod comes out


Won't the build have to include the engine in one way or another?:confused:

If not that would really bite... Anyway to possibly download?

[CMA]I'm am not encouraging the reveal of an illegal source!  If you know a place, make sure it's legal![\CMA]

And for the model....

Ooooooohhhhh, pretty......
:jaw:
Mommy, can I get one of those for my birthday?:D
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Annorax on June 20, 2005, 01:43:11 am
Quote
Originally posted by Boomer


Won't the build have to include the engine in one way or another?:confused:

If not that would really bite... Anyway to possibly download?

[CYA]I'm am not encouraging the reveal of an illegal source!  If you know a place, make sure it's legal![\CYA]

And for the model....

Ooooooohhhhh, pretty......
:jaw:
Mommy, can I get one of those for my birthday?:D


I'm assuming the CYA edit was a link to a source for warezing UT2k4. It  should be said that such a link would be totally useless because it checks the serial number against Epic's master server at runtime. Warez serials get banned by the master server, which also bans the user from eventually buying and installing UT2k4 from that computer and flags the IP for auto-banning if another computer is used with a legit serial. In short... don't even try.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 20, 2005, 01:50:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Annorax
It  should be said that such a link would be totally useless because it checks the serial number against Epic's master server at runtime. Warez serials get banned by the master server, which also bans the user from eventually buying and installing UT2k4 from that computer and flags the IP for auto-banning if another computer is used with a legit serial. In short... don't even try.


Pssssssssssst, don´t tell anyone, but they cracked that a week after release. I know it for a FACT.

:p
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Boomer on June 20, 2005, 02:34:02 pm
Ummmm.  CYA stands for Cover Your Ass.  I don't feel like getting banned you know.  Maybe I should change it to CMA for Cover My Ass.

Also, I'm asking if there is a place where I can either buy or download a legal registered copy.  I'm not trying to pirate here.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: TopAce on June 20, 2005, 02:53:08 pm
Consult the Wiki, it might help you.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Boomer on June 20, 2005, 04:19:44 pm
The Wiki did not help.  I just want to know where to get a copy of the engine.  That's all.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 04:24:11 pm
unreal Engine 2 runtime...

http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/UnrealEngine2Runtime
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: TrashMan on June 20, 2005, 05:40:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Listen as the Marine screams "DIE!" You can hear a humming, buzzing sound that ends when the weapon she's holding fires, downing the shivan.


That sounded like gattling gun fire to me...the really fast shell fire
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 05:52:11 pm
Yeah, to me it sounded like the whir of an electronic motor, possibly feeding ammunition.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 05:54:32 pm
Then why does it stop when the explosive weapon hits the Shivan? I've gone over it, and the most reasonable explanation is that it's the big ass gun carried by the girl thats making that sound, and it's that same bigass gun that takes down the shivan.

Whats more, the sound goes like "VRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM-BOOM!-(power down noise). It doesn't sound anything like Gatling fire. More like a vacuum cleaner.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 05:58:46 pm
One more thing: At the same instant the big explosion happens, the Girl's gun Kicks back-Like it just shot something. There's even a MUZZLE FLASH at that same instant, whereas there was none before.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: WMCoolmon on June 20, 2005, 06:00:05 pm
Maybe the weapon spun up the ammunition, so it would drill through targets after launched (a sort of really nasty anti-armor round)
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 06:04:51 pm
That is NOT what happened.

It's not hard. Watch the scene closely. The Group opens fire (with a very distinct sound, too, different from the charge up sound). The Girl wiht the big gun is NOT firing, instead you can hear her gun charging up. Then, she screams "DIE!", You see one (just one) HUGE muzzle flash from her weapon (it also kicks back in her hands), Then a GIANT explosion the same instant, and then her gun makes a power-down noise.

I just watched it, I'm not imagining it.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 06:10:43 pm
Oh, ok, i agree that the girl shoots a grenade or AP shell or somthing. For some reason i thaught you were implitng that the weapon was a laser.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 06:14:54 pm
I don't think it was a grenade or a AP shell. Why would they need to audibly charge up to fire?

The gun itself looks way too funky to be firing bullets or grenades, as well. Look at the shape of the Barrel, for example.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 06:16:04 pm
Gauss gun or railgun. Uses a capacitor or compulsator to charge it's rails/coils
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 06:18:35 pm
(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/species/ada0001.jpg)

There, thats the gun she uses. Whats up with the Long and thin shape of the barrel? What kinda bullet are you seriouly gonna shoot outta that?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 20, 2005, 06:19:39 pm
It really doesn´t matter. Considering how Hallfight is the SOLE source for info on FS troops and weapons, we can´t hardly be expected to match it point for point. I guess we can say we have a bit of creative license to do the way we see best. And a weapon that needs charging is not what anyone would want to see in a FPS. Republic Commando made that mistake with the plasma blood weapon, where you had to start firing 5 seconds before the target comes into play. Not exactlly good for countering an enemy that jumps at you in a corner. Those 5 seconds are enough to get you killed.
:ick:

@Jetmech:

The gun you see there is the second one i posted. It´s the minigun. You´re just looking at it from a diferent angle.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 06:22:29 pm
I don't see why it's hard to accept that the GTVA might have Heavy Energy weapons for Infantry, though.

And I liked the Plasma blood weapon, thank you very much. You just needed to pre-empt you foes a bit. :p
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: WMCoolmon on June 20, 2005, 06:22:39 pm
Were there any weapons in the FS2 intro?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 06:24:10 pm
Railgunsconventianaly shoot square bullets, that's not far of, infact, it's probably a good design as it allows a large area of contact with the rails. No need to have rounded edges though.


Either way, yes it is superficial, jsut the way the weapon doesnt make a very lasery sound leads me to believe against that.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 06:24:25 pm
FS2 intro was all space, except for a skeletal remains on the planet. You didn't really see any infantry weapons, especially in use.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 06:26:36 pm
Quote

The gun you see there is the second one i posted. It´s the minigun. You´re just looking at it from a diferent angle.


I know which gun it is. I also know there's no way it's a minigun.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Boomer on June 20, 2005, 06:47:56 pm
You'll think me stupid, but I want to make sure I get this right.

You guys are using Unreal Runtime Demo right?:o
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 20, 2005, 06:48:34 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


I know which gun it is. I also know there's no way it's a minigun.


Why not? If you look at it, the whole weapon is basically a cilinder. We can imagine a set of rotating barrels inside the frame, just as a minigun. A minigun only fires from the one position. The barrels rotate, but only when a barrel reaches the top position will it fire. And that means you don´t need 8 muzzles in the front of the weapon, you just need one, like a revolver. Infact, a minigun isn´t anything more than an ultra fast revolver. And since we can´t make out any features in the front of the gun, we can´t know the number or caliber of the muzzle. The picture is too dark to make out anything.
We are acostumed to see skeleton-like miniguns where you can clearly make out the barrels, but if you put a cover around them, you end up with something just like that weapon there.
Obviously, this is not a minigun as we know them. There are no feed ammo belts, nor any magazines we can make out(except maybe the back end of it ). So my guess is that it fires a type of energy based projectiles, or a caseless projectile.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 06:49:17 pm
1. Where are you gonna put the ammunition? It's not belt fed, and there's not much room in the weapon itself.

2. It fires nothing like a minigun. It uses 1 shot, which EXPLODES.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 06:50:49 pm
Nah, that's just the flashlight on the front of the gun shining off of the shivans leg.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 20, 2005, 06:53:26 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Boomer
You'll think me stupid, but I want to make sure I get this right.

You guys are using Unreal Runtime Demo right?:o


No, we are using UnrealTournament 2004. We need the editor that comes with. That demo doesn´t have the editor or the texture packs we will use. So, to clear any doubts, you need the full game. Later on, if things work well, we might find a way for Atari to allows us to release a stand-alone version, but that is waaaay down the road, and after much wishfull thinking.
:p
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 06:54:09 pm
The demo has the editor, not the texture packs.


(i think it has the editor, it should)
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Boomer on June 20, 2005, 06:56:41 pm
Ahhh, ****.

Well, its of to the software store I go....
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 06:58:27 pm
No, no,  no... guys. Look. The thing that the guy modelled is the grenade launcher; it's obvious. The thing in that picture is definitely the minigun.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 07:00:21 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
No, no,  no... guys. Look. The thing that the guy modelled is the grenade launcher; it's obvious. The thing in that picture is definitely the minigun.


No, its not. The gun swamp thing modelled is the weapon used by the marines in Hallfight, the autocannon like guns. The ones that bounced off the shivans? The gun the girls holding is the big BOOM BOOM weapon that brought down the shivan :rolleyes:
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 07:22:53 pm
I doubt it. They're both in the cutscene, but the big roundish one is a nade launcher. Hold on, I'll go watch it again.

Okay. Recall the big boom that downs the Shivan? It comes from the guy in front that holds up his hand to shade his eyes. Guess what he's holding? A grenade launcher, which is what Swamp Thing modelled.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 07:25:06 pm
Those grenade launchers are shown shooting bullets at a high rate in other parts of the scene.

Besides, it's the marine WITH the big gun that covers her eyes.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 07:32:03 pm
No, she was over to the left of the formation, not in the center front.

But yes, I can't deny that I saw them shooting bullets earlier.

Volition needed to get their **** together.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 07:33:50 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
I doubt it. They're both in the cutscene, but the big roundish one is a nade launcher. Hold on, I'll go watch it again.

Okay. Recall the big boom that downs the Shivan? It comes from the guy in front that holds up his hand to shade his eyes. Guess what he's holding? A grenade launcher, which is what Swamp Thing modelled.


Glasses or contacts. Pick one, you'll need it.

As Firecrack said, the marine who shields her eyes is the girl with the BIG GUN, not the one Swampy modeled.

Every other gun in the cutscene that actually fires is one of the guns swampy modelled, and you guessed it, they fire like assault rifles/autocannons, not Grenade launchers.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 07:44:21 pm
Until the big boom. And it comes from the guy in the center front, who's holding what you say is a machinegun. Wow! Imagine that. Volition screwed up.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Hippo on June 20, 2005, 07:47:52 pm
*sigh*

How many of you have actually watched the video before posting?

Look carefully, when the shivans come twards the marines with the white cutty things extended, you can see every one of them is shooting something with very quick muzzle flashes. None of this grenade bull. Why did that shivan explode? Who knows.

(http://www.woodentoyandgift.com/files/recoil.JPG)

In the above image, were it not an image, but a video, you would see the marines staggering due to the recoil.


There are no grenade launchers to be seen. Why would grenades be use in the first place? The shrapnel would be guarenteed to kill every one of the marines with no gravity.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 07:54:42 pm
Exactly, it's a big railgun! Possibly with an underbarrel minigun notherless, but whatever.


Also note how they fire their guns in bursts.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 07:57:50 pm
I am well aware, Hippo. But it is also obvious in the frames when the girl screams DIE that shes holding the big gun that charges up. I agree that it's not a grenade launcher, though.

For ****s sake, here's the damn gun:

(http://www.descent-freespace.com/goodies/gallery/species/tsm0002.jpg)

Ghost, no other marines are visible, and the positions shift somewhat. You're comment that the blast came from said marine is loaded.

When the marine fires, you can clearly see the muzzle of the gun. Its the bigass gun the girl is carrying.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 07:58:27 pm
I have.

Time index 1:44. You see the person in the front center shooting with one of the things that Swamp Thing modelled.

Time index 1:45-1:47. That's when the girl screams "DIIIIIIIEEEEE!" and then when the explosion happens. You see the person from 1:44 holding up his hand. If you pay attention during the earlier parts of the cutscene, you don't see anyone taking their hands off of the big thing, but you do see plenty of people taking their hands off of the GRENADE LAUNCHER.

And yes, I did see people with what I call grenade launchers shooting with bullets. This is because Volition screwed up the Marines' weapons. The other explanation is that there are machinegun barrels above the big roundy thing that takes up most of the space. Looking at the pic on page 1, that's probably what it is.

I'm right this time. I may not be right all the other times, but this time, I know I'm right.


EDIT: Oh for Christ's sake. Do you have ANY knowledge of real weapons? That thing is a SQUAD AUTOMATIC WEAPON. Look at the damn thing. The carrying handle is a DEAD GIVEAWAY. Look at the ****ing M249 SAW.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 07:59:47 pm
No, you're just blind. Or in denial. Either way.

I knowyou are wrong.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 08:00:50 pm
See my edit, bubs. You're wrong on this one.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 08:04:25 pm
NOOOOO

Look at the damn video at 1:44, theres no way to tell that this is the center becasue you can see NO other marines!


Anywyas, i'm starting to belive that mabye that Big gun is simply a larger heavier minigun thing, the explosion came from the shivan dying.


And how the hell can you make that outrageous claim in your edit! The handle si there, therefore it's a saw! That's like someone saying "This papaer CD envolope has a window in it, therefoer it's a house"
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 08:07:37 pm
How many other weapons have you seen with a carrying handle of that type? Not bloody many, and I think we can rule out high-caliber sniper rifles in this case.

1:44 is CENTER FRONT. Not just "center," otherwise we WOULD see Marines, so you just proved my ****ing point.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 08:08:44 pm
You're edit, Ghost, means absolutely ****!

YOU CAN SEE THE MUZZLE OF THE DAMN GUN WHEN SHE FIRES IT AND KILLS THE SHIVAN. It looks NOTHING like the other gun. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It's silver, and has 2 holes on the top, and it's TALL. THe other guns are grey, peppered with holes, and are short and round.

Get a clue.

It fires once, theres an explosion, and the shivan dies. Period. Trying to pass anything other than what is shown in the cutscene as what actually happened is stupid, because we can see in the CS that it's not the damn autogun.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 08:09:19 pm
Hey, how the heck many weapons have you seen wiht a carrying handle the same type as the other guns, mounted to the wrist.

Center, center front, what's the difference! The point is we see no other marines so it's imposible to tell if it's center front, left front, or even right front!
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 08:10:18 pm
YOU SEE NO OTHER MARINES BECAUSE SHES IN THE LEFT-FRONT OF THE GROUP.

It's like trying to teach a retarded 2 month old chimp to juggle watermelons. You just don't seem to be able to grasp it.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 08:12:53 pm
Jet, i'm arguing the same thing. We see a shot of the front left marine (with big gun, female) when the shivan explodes, or at the verry least it's imossible to tell what one we are viewing.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 08:15:56 pm
Look at the goddamn LIGHTS, you buffoons! How else do you think I figured it out?


Firecrack: I don't know, but I certainly do see lots of assault rifles that fire in bursts that also have GRENADE LAUNCHERS on the bottom of them. You'll also notice that the SAW in the picture above has the guys right arm in it. Amazing what you discover when you use your brain(which, incidentally, utilizes your EYES to discern information about its surroundings).
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 08:19:34 pm
I see no grenade launchers, provide an image and point it out.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 08:19:57 pm
In scene 1:44, It shows a marine firing one of hte Autocannons. HOWEVER, this is not the marine who fires the big gun, and not hte marine who downs the shivan.

How do I know? Because:

1. The marine with the big gun is in the left-front of the group, as is established earlier in the cutscene.

2. The marine in 1:44 is not this marine, because there is a Flashlight beam coming from the LEFT of him. Therefore, he can't be at the left of the group.

3. The Marine in 1:44 is not hte marine who takes out the shivan, because the marine who takes out the shivan a.has no flashlight coming from the left, and has the big gun muzzle, as is clear from the scene itself.

Therefore, we can conclude it was the Marine with the Big gun who took down the shivan

Case closed.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 08:23:08 pm
Can an admin split this thread, it's supposed to be about swamp-thing's model.

The marine that takes out the shivan has no flashlight coming from the left?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Hippo on June 20, 2005, 08:25:16 pm
Will the lot of you calm down already?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 08:27:33 pm
You're right. Apologies, Ghost, for the temper.


...You're still wrong.

Oh, yes, what Firecrack said. Could an admin split the thread? Sorry to you, as well, Swamp_thing, for derailing.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 08:29:41 pm
Firecrack: look on page 1. The big round thingy is the grenade launcher.

The Marine with the big gun is the woman, yes? Henceforth, I KNOW that's not the Marine in 1:44.

The Marine in 1:44 is the one that blows up the damn Shivan, because you can see his 'autocannon,' as you call it, being lowered after he blows the **** out of it.

It CANNOT be the woman saying "DIE" because you clearly see her with both hands on her weapon.

Out of curiousity(and possibly to help clear this up), how many people are there with the big gun?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 08:29:48 pm
I still have no idea who was saying what.


What a pointless argument.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Ghost on June 20, 2005, 08:30:57 pm
Bah. Fine. It's over. But Jet: you have the wrong word. When you say "You're still wrong," you need to change that to "You're still right."
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 08:32:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ghost
Firecrack: look on page 1. The big round thingy is the grenade launcher.

The Marine with the big gun is the woman, yes? Henceforth, I KNOW that's not the Marine in 1:44.

The Marine in 1:44 is the one that blows up the damn Shivan, because you can see his 'autocannon,' as you call it, being lowered after he blows the **** out of it.

It CANNOT be the woman saying "DIE" because you clearly see her with both hands on her weapon.

Out of curiousity(and possibly to help clear this up), how many people are there with the big gun?


Incorrect. Its the womans BIG gun that is being lowered, after SHE blows the **** outta it.

She has both hands on the weapon at first, then brings one up to shield her eyes when the weapon fires.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Taristin on June 20, 2005, 08:33:39 pm
It'd damn well better be over. How you can fight like little children over a ficticious weapon, carried by a ficticious soldier, in a ficticious universe is beyond me.


Thread will be split and locked next time, and, should it continue further, I will ask the admins to restrict posting priveledges for an unspecified period of time.

Yes, a gross overabuse of power. ph34r.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 20, 2005, 08:44:41 pm
Somebody direct me to where I can download FRAPs, please? I intend to end this...

EDIT: Got the program. Time to fire up that AVI again.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Hippo on June 20, 2005, 08:49:41 pm
just sue mve2avi
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Taristin on June 20, 2005, 08:55:02 pm
Take it to PMs, if you feel the need to continue this further.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 20, 2005, 08:57:32 pm
FRAPS=Screenshots.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 20, 2005, 09:03:49 pm
Guys, this pointless discussion is getting ridiculous. The simple truth is is, you are both right, and you are both wrong. Volition screwed up the animations, they have the bodies do one thing, and the weapons do another. If we guide ourselfs by the body animations, the smaller gun is either a nade launcher or a shotgun. If we guide ourselfs by the muzzle flashes, then it becomes an assault rifle. Either way, it´s pointless. Had you read the first posts, you´d see this was all covered already.
Now let´s drop the issue. It really doesn´t matter, because we´ll make our own minds about it anyway.

Now, to stop ALL the bickering, feast your eyes on this:
;7

(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/FS_Shotgun4.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/FS_Shotgun5.jpg) (http://www.theimagehosting.com)
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 09:06:19 pm
Is THAT a shotgun? or a nade launcher?


And on the topic, what positions do you need filled/have open?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 09:10:37 pm
It's already been dropped. As for your new gun, THAT, I really, really like.

What game is Hegemonia gonna be for?
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: FireCrack on June 20, 2005, 09:13:29 pm
UT2004
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 20, 2005, 09:16:52 pm
Ah Crap.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 20, 2005, 09:20:01 pm
Well, you are both correct...and both wrong.

Exhibit A: Closing In

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/wmplayer2005-06-2019-03-14-41.jpg)

All of them were firing as the Shivans closed in...HOWEVER, it is also worth noting that by the time the female trooper in question fires, the muzzle of her weapon is not in view and so muzzle flashes cannot be observed. This leaves us with the body animation, which suggests she fired a weapon with heavy recoil twice.

Exhibit B: Who The Hell Is That?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/wmplayer2005-06-2018-58-41-48.jpg)

Shot is almost certainly of the center, male trooper. The gun is wrong for it to be the female trooper with the weapon in question, and the view is wrong for any other besides the center man as viewed from behind and slightly to the left (interestingly, roughly the posistion where there was another trooper).

Also please note apparent spot illumination from the right side  of the Shivan's leg, probably from another Terran's weapon-mounted light. The only trooper to the right is the female trooper with the weapon in question. This is reasonable proof she was pointing her weapon in the direction of the Shivan which got whacked.

Exhibit C: Shivan Going Down

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/wmplayer2005-06-2018-58-42-02.jpg)

While the man is in fact moving back, there is no muzzle flash to indicate he is firing his weapon as either AR or grenade launcher. Partial lighting of the Shivan's "head" can be accounted for by the fact the Terran troopers had flashlights affixed to their guns; angle for such illumination is roughly correct. The trooper illuminating it would be, based on rough shape, size, and apparent angle of the illumination, the female trooper with the weapon in question. This operates both for and against the theory she fired: her weapon was pointed at the target, but recoil may or may not have caused it to move off-target. No good shots are available of her firing her weapon to show in which direction it largely recoils.

Conclusion: while impossible to completely disprove he did not fire a grenade or some kind of AP projectile himself, it seems highly unlikely based on the lack of apparent muzzle flash. It is also worth noting that last shot of the female trooper with weapon in question had her lit by muzzle flash, presumably from her weapon.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 20, 2005, 09:20:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
Is THAT a shotgun? or a nade launcher?


And on the topic, what positions do you need filled/have open?


I don´t know yet, but i´m thinking a 23rd century shotgun. The ammo drum holds 12 rounds, wich is good for a shotgun, but a little too much for a nade launcher.


As for "job" openings, we need a skin/texture artist most of all, but we also need a cutscene man, a sound man, and a code man. Oh, and a interface man for menus, HUDs, etc. The rest is pretty much covered.
Anyone interested can post in our forum here:

http://www.game-warden.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=52 (http://www.game-warden.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=52)

:)
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Boomer on June 21, 2005, 11:37:19 am
Ooohhh.....  Shotgun... Me likes.:D

Why would it need a scope though?:confused:

And to end the preceding arguement, look at the last line of my signature.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: pyro-manic on June 21, 2005, 04:03:36 pm
It's a very nice model, but it strikes me as being very.... "un-futuristic", if that makes sense. It looks like something that could be around today (with the exception of the scope), not a weapon 300 years more advanced than that.

EDIT: And it looks like I might have to find a copy of UT2004 on the cheap now.

One thing worries me, however - I'm hoping like hell this project will somehow avoid the usual mulitplayer-only disease that FPS mods tend to suffer from. I simply wouldn't be interested unless there's a single-player element, i.e. a story. That may come across as harsh, but I find multi-player tedious in the extreme for nearly every game I've played (with the exception of Call of Duty)...
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Swamp_Thing on June 21, 2005, 05:33:02 pm
We are doing single player only.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: pyro-manic on June 22, 2005, 08:16:49 am
Thank f*ck for that. :D:yes:
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Fragrag on June 22, 2005, 09:19:55 am
I can just imagine it, standing in a Argo, ready to move in, you dock and then hell lets loose...
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: redsniper on June 22, 2005, 09:43:05 am
I want to get in a swordfight with a shivan. :D
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: Carl on June 22, 2005, 11:15:50 am
our current first person shooters look much better than the pre-rendered cutscenes of 1998.

just pointing that out.
Title: ML-16 Laser gun
Post by: redsniper on June 22, 2005, 01:34:18 pm
Kind of like FSO looks better then the FS2 cutscenes.