Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: JoeLo on June 19, 2005, 07:24:15 pm
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The Promethus R claims to use the some of the Banshee's technology, so what I ask is why not just use a refurbrished Banshee? The refurbrished Promethus S worked fine.
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Banshees probably need lotsa Argon or somthing.
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Intresting point, but why not continue production of the Banshee after wards, I have fond memories of that gun.
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They had this little thing called an economic breakdown. Add to that the loss of the large industrial cappacities of the Sol system and suddenly you're protecting the scattered remains of an alliance armed with just Avenger cannons.
BTW, where did it say that the PromR uses tech from the Banshee?
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With the link to Earth severed, the GTVA has been unable to obtain sufficient quantities of Argon, a required element in the Prometheus's power generation module to continue to manufacture the standard Prometheus. GTVA engineers modified the original design to incorporate some of the advanced electromagnetic mechanisms of the Banshee. The technology hasn't been perfected, and the Prometheus R suffers from a long recharge cycle and high energy requirements.
Also why build a Promethus R compared to the Subach HL-7 it was a weak gun.
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No, no, no! The Banshee did not need Argon!:hopping:
The Banshee fired an extremely power burst of fluctuating EM energy! It was NOT a Laser!
Hmmmph. Show some respect to one of the most kickass weapons :v: ever made.
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It would depend on just how much Argon the Prometheus required but I find it hard to believe that Earth/Sol is the only place in the entire galaxy that has a plentiful supply of Argon. It makes up ~0.9% of our atmosphere, ~1.6% that of Mars and is probably present in the atmospheres of some of the gas giants and moons as well.
Now, the GTVA have discovered/colonised a number of different planets, some of which presumably have atmospheres similar to Earth, yet they're trying to say that none of these have enough Argon to make mass production of the original Prometheus feasible? Yet Earth/Sol, with its relatively low volume of Argon (which would have been hammered through the production of other weapons like the ML-16 for 14 years), can?
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@Boomer:
It was the Prom S (or the original Prom) that required Argon to operate.
Actually, if you think about it, the Banshee is a laser according to what you just said. (Then again, the term 'laser' in FS is somewhat misused.)
The problem with the Banshee was that it consumed far too much power during use, and was obviously far more difficult to produce. Personally, my choice goes to the Prometheus as the better weapon.
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Probably too expensive to maintain. The Prometheus R probably became the standard "peacetime" weapon of the GTVA forces. The Subach as you'll note is not available in the COOP campaign dealing with the Hammer of Light and its probably a more recent innovation involving a shield impacting weapon of small power consumption.
An example of this would be just after WWII were thousands of frontline top notch military aircraft were sold for a mere few thousand dollars. They were vital and necessary during wartime and cost was meaningless...but in peacetime, things change and the priorities change.
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Good point, but I still hate the Promethus R so much. They should have a stress reliever where you just go destroy Promethus R's. It would be awesome. Actually I am going to make a campaing where you try to pay civilians to take them off your hands. (Runs off to do impossible FREDing job with minimal knowledge of how to work the program)
Then why do they grant you a Promethus R after the Subach
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Still, if it encorporates some of the Banshee's electronics, and the Banshee was the premier FS1 anti-shield weapon, then the Prom-R's feebleness against shields makes little sense...
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I chose the subach over Promethus. Simply because of the fireing rate. Suback is weak but it shoots constantly, which i like. So many times the enemy is in your sight and you miss it due to a hudge delay by the Promethus. Some times i dubbled up promethus's and did a trick that made them fire constantly, one then the other. Then i kicked ass.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Still, if it encorporates some of the Banshee's electronics, and the Banshee was the premier FS1 anti-shield weapon, then the Prom-R's feebleness against shields makes little sense...
The Banshee electronics were most likely incorporated into the Prometheus R as a way to reduce the amount of Argon it consumed keeping the design feasible while sufficient supplies of Argon weren't available. It's still more or less the same basic design as the original and that was designed to take out hulls and not shields so it makes sense the new one has much the same pros and cons.
Just because one design incorporates elements from another doesn't mean it inherits all the features of the other design. Case in point: Modern cars contain computers to regulate fuel injection, ignition etc. These computers contain elements of the same basic architecture as the PC you're most likely reading this on. However, a fuel injection computer is a vastly different animal to a desktop PC.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Probably too expensive to maintain. The Prometheus R probably became the standard "peacetime" weapon of the GTVA forces. The Subach as you'll note is not available in the COOP campaign dealing with the Hammer of Light and its probably a more recent innovation involving a shield impacting weapon of small power consumption.
That was the general idea of what I was thinking as well. The Banshee, IIRC, used an enormous amount of power out of a ship to fire, and it was very plausible that the GTVA simply discontinued the Banshee after the Great War, since they developed newer and more effective weapons to do the Banshee's job (the Subach, the *ahem* Windshield Blinder--er, Shield Breaker).
The Prometheus R is simply a retrofit of the original Prometheus, which, unlike the Banshee, was much more effective in terms of power reserves and damage, IMO. While they discontinued the Banshee due to power issues or expenses, they decided to continue the Prometheus, though the GTVA had to change its makeup in order to compensate for the lack of Argon.
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Woo woo. Argon? Iv never heard that name before. Where the hell in FS or FS2 is that ever mentioned? What dark corner did you guys pull That out of?
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The tech database...
weapons.tbl if you want to get technical...
It's mentioned in like the fifth post in this thread which is pretty much a copy 'n' paste from the tech database.
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Originally posted by Charismatic
Woo woo. Argon? Iv never heard that name before. Where the hell in FS or FS2 is that ever mentioned? What dark corner did you guys pull That out of?
Well the tech database, the weapons table (same thing), and the command briefings.
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what confuses me is how they managed to weld their ships together without argon, its a key requirement of plasma welding. they probibly just substituted it with some other inert gas.
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Or possibly they weld via some other method.
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For reference;
[q]
GTW ML-16
Argon laser weapon; uses transparent ceramic technology in order to create an optical system that is extremely durable and stable under battle conditions; provides adequate destructive damage to the hull of enemy ships by vaporizing molecular bonds at the target area and destabilizing molecular bonds across the grain of the hull material.
GTW-41 DISRUPTOR CANNON
A gas-focused krypton laser; when the ship is in flight, the chamber of the GTW-41 rotates at a constant speed; a small amount of NO2 is injected into the container .05 ms prior to the emission of the laser
light; the rotation of the NO2 in the chamber focuses the laser pulse to a state that is only very slightly (1%) diffused; after the laser pulse is emitted from the chamber into space, the chamber expels the NO2 into space (thus expelling ionized molecules and moisture); the process repeats for each subsequent burst of laser energy; as this laser is very slightly diffused, it is not effective as a destructive weapon, but as a tactical weapon; the Disruptor Cannon is best suited and is used for the permanent disabling of enemy ship subsystems.
GTW-15 AVENGER
A rapid-fire, computer-controlled radar and gun system; capable of firing at a rate of more than 4500 rounds per minute; used primarily for close-defense situations; uses closed-loop radar technology to locate,
identify, and direct a stream of highly destructive 45mm projectiles to the target.
GTW - 32 FLAIL
A rapid-fire, low energy, ceramic optic focused, krypton laser; used in tactical situations to distract or lead an enemy to their destruction at the hands of other allied fighters; this weapon, if used over an
extended period of in-flight battle, can destroy an enemy fighter, but, as a destructive weapon, should only be used as a last resort.
GTW - 5 PROMETHEUS
Named after the Titan who gave fire to humanity, the Prometheus is a laser-based weapon; an advanced radar and X-ray tracking system lock on the target and determine the target’s material structure; argon laser
focused via transparent ceramic optics; uses only slightly more energy than the GTW ML-16; the laser is generated at the destructive frequency (full out-of-phase) for the target’s material structure; emitted no more than .02 ms after targeting and activation by the pilot, the Prometheus stands as one of the GTA’s most effective deterrents to enemy attack, an effective form of defense for GTA pilots, and as a durable, portable, and highly destructive offensive tool.
GTW - 7 BANSHEE
An electromagnetic weapon; sends rapid pulses of exceptionally strong electromagnetic energy resulting in a 1.63 x 105 J blast that forces its way through any known shield technology and produces a dramatic shearing effect which quickly destroys the target ship’s materials; named for the fact that in an atmosphere, the pulse creates an atmospheric disturbance similar to a quasi-human scream at 180 dB; uses up a tremendous amount of available ship energy; already, it is has been used by many GTA fighter aces and test pilots as a coup de grace, although such a use for this massively powerful offensive weapon is officially viewed as poor sportsmanship by the GTA.
[/q]
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GTW - 7 BANSHEE An electromagnetic weapon; sends rapid pulses of exceptionally strong electromagnetic energy resulting in a 1.63 x 105 J blast that forces its way through any known shield technology and produces a dramatic shearing effect which quickly destroys the target ship’s materials; named for the fact that in an atmosphere, the pulse creates an atmospheric disturbance similar to a quasi-human scream at 180 dB; uses up a tremendous amount of available ship energy; already, it is has been used by many GTA fighter aces and test pilots as a coup de grace, although such a use for this massively powerful offensive weapon is officially viewed as poor sportsmanship by the GTA.
See, like I said, Not a Laser. No "light" involved, just energy.:p
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'light' is made up of photons, which are packets of EM radiation.
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I do prefer the later weapons where you can be all patient like and nail someone with a few well placed rounds.
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The Prometheus S is NOT -- i repeat, NOT[/u] the same as the original 2335 Prometheus. There's a 600 meter range difference (900 vs 1500), as well as sound, energy usage, damage, and fire rate.
My guess as to why the Banshee was scrapped: It wasn't compatible enough. Only the Herc, Valk, and Loki could mount it. That and it was probably too expensive; after Sol was gone, the GTA probably had a fraction of the industrial base (and tax base)to call upon. And the Breaker* was likely cheaper anyhow.
Why use the Prom-R versus the Subach? Because the Subach wasn't developed for mass production until some (unspecified) time after the Great War. They knew how to make it, more or less; they just didn't have the tricks to make it less expensive to produce, until the industrial base recovered.
As for Prom-R versus Prom-O (original), well, they ran out of argon. Probably bought back all those ML-16s to recycle their argon power units, but that can only have lasted em so long. Also the Prom-R's longer range** helps it versus the original.
Now here's the question I was thinking: Why use the Prom-R versus the Avenger, the main weapon at the time the Prom-R was developed? Basically, because it packs a bigger wallop per shot, and does slightly more** shield damage over time.
Heeyarr.
*"Shield Breaker" is too long a name. So I just call it the Breaker for short.
**I am of the opinion that [V] goofed the Prom-R's TBLs (on purpose or otherwise) and that the gun should be significantly less crappy than it is. Hence the "slightly more" and "longer range" comments.
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It wouldve taken less time to type Sheild Breaker once than to write that whole footnote.
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'light' is made up of photons, which are packets of EM radiation.
Damn, I knew a physics stickler would put that in. Fine, here's the disclaimer.
I realize that all wavelengths of the EM spectrum can be considered light, however, a laser consists of a highly coherent beam (or short burst) of photons with a consistent wavelength and frequency, the Banshee however uses an electro-magnetic pulse, which doesn't maintain a constant wavelength or frequency.
i.e. Laser=lots of the same.
Banshee=lots of everything.
Edited. So there.:p
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Where does it say the Banshee fires a fluctuating EM pulse? (Sorry, I don't have FS1 loaded on my computer, so I can't refer to the briefings.) The closest thing to that I can find is in FS2's Circe anti-shield weapon.
In any case, even if the Banshee does fire in that fluctuating manner, essentially what this means is a coherent laser is fired for a short period of time before the weapon switches to another frequency and fire 'again'. Still a laser. At least, that would be my interpretation.
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Originally posted by kv1at3485
Where does it say the Banshee fires a fluctuating EM pulse? (Sorry, I don't have FS1 loaded on my computer, so I can't refer to the briefings.) The closest thing to that I can find is in FS2's Circe anti-shield weapon.
Here's the FS1 tech entry:An electromagnetic weapon - sends rapid pulses of exceptionally strong electromagnetic energy resulting in a 1.63 x 105 J blast that forces its way through any known shield technology and produces a dramatic shearing effect which quickly destroys the target ship's materials - named for the fact that in an atmosphere, the pulse creates an atmospheric disturbance similar to a quasi-human scream at 180 dB - uses up a tremendous amount of available ship energy - already, it is has been used by many GTA fighter aces and test pilots as a coup de grace, although such a use for this massively powerful offensive weapon is officially viewed as poor sportsmanship by the GTA.
The GTW-7's impressive anti-shielding capabilities make it the weapon of choice against the Shivans. The main limitation of this weapon is low weapons compatibility. It can only be fitted on a GTF Valkyrie or a GTF Hercules.
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Indeed. Then unless I'm going blind, there is no mention of the weapon ramping its discharge up and down the EM spectrum, only that it fires rapid pulses of EM energy which (to me) would imply that it fires on a discreet frequency.
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All right, now they're just trying to hard.....
All I'm saying is that a Laser in the conventional sense use distinguishable wavelengths of VISIBLE light (with few exceptions)
that is focused through the use of a focusing lens and\or crystal and\or transparent ceramic optic, whatever.
What the Banshee does, however, involves no focusing whatsoever. While it uses photons (I will conceed that point) it is not the photons themself that do the damage. It is the polarized magnetic field surrounding them that disrupts and punches through the shields. When they say that it fires a 1.63 x 105 J blast of electromagnetic energy, they don't mean EM radiation, they mean the energy associated with an electro-magnetic field.
The photons act only as a medium to carry the devastating electro-magnetic fields that shields seem to hate so much.
Think about it! If a shield can stop a laser blast, why should it not be effective against the Banshee? It's because the Banshee's destructive power is based on the inherent magnetic field associated with photons. By firing a **** load of different photons, each with a unique electro-magnetic signature affixed to it, it would render a devastating anti-shield blast. That's why it takes so much energy: instead of making a whole lot of the same, it has to make a whole lot of everything.
On a final note, sorry about the fluctuating EM thingy, wrong weapon. That's the Circe.
*Material referencing done via Wikipedia. The online encyclopedia made by the people who use it, for the people who don't.*
Please excuse my shameless pimping.:thepimp:
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I belive that should be 1.63*10^5 and the exponentiation was lost in a copy-paste somewhere.
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I figure the Banshee did what it did because its discharge was simply more powerful than its contemporaries. i.e. It's a brute force weapon.
Shields at that time simply were not powerful enough to stop such an obscene amount of energy delivered in a single 'concentrated' shot (absorption threshold leading to leakage?), let alone multiple shots within a short period.
That would also partially explain why production of the weapon was discontinued while the Prometheus lived on. Not only was it horrendously expensive, but over time its brute force method was mitigated by improved shields (too much power now required to achieve the same effect.)
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I figure the Banshee did what it did because its discharge was simply more powerful than its contemporaries. i.e. It's a brute force weapon.
But......
Ahh.....
Hmmm....
Well....
****, Occam's Razor bites me in the ass again.
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Now here's the question I was thinking: Why use the Prom-R versus the Avenger, the main weapon at the time the Prom-R was developed? Basically, because it packs a bigger wallop per shot, and does slightly more** shield damage over time.
Not to mention the Avenger was a shell-firing ballistic cannon, and as such used up ammunition, which means it would have been considerably costlier to use.
Originally posted by kv1at3485
I figure the Banshee did what it did because its discharge was simply more powerful than its contemporaries. i.e. It's a brute force weapon.
By the very nature of its description, however, the Banshee would seem to be a directed EM pulse across multiple frequencies, not a mere brute-force laser. Note that all other lasers (ML-16, Prom-O, Flail, and both versions of the Disruptor) are described as lasers. (Also worth noting the Subach is described as a xaser.)
The Banshee, then, would probably fire EM pulses that are spread across multiple frequencies, but do not fluctuate. They are composed of multiple frequencies generated simultanously, focused and directed simultanously, and arriving simultanously. Some small fluctuating effect might have been obtained by the two barrels of the weaponing firing different combinations of frequencies.
The more effective S-Breaker had an even greater number of barrels (somewhere between six and eight; don't have the tech ani handy). Basing off this, it would seem the GTA wasn't able to generate a fluctuating EM pulse using a single-barrel weapon and had to use multiple barrels to obtain the same effect.
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Well, the Banshee honestly probably had a very very short lifespan. It came into limited production towards the end of the great war, and we're talking the very tail end. And it was essentially an anti-shield weapon with a bit of hull damage, horribly energy inefficient and generally specialized entirely for taking on ships with powerful shields and weak hulls, ie, the shivans. After the lucifer was destroyed, and the shivans disappeared, there was no reason to expand the banshee manufacturing capabilities - the only reason it exist had vanished. Against shivans it was a useful weapon. Againts terran and vasudan space pirates....well, it's not cost or energy efficient.
The Prom-R is harder for me to explain, primairly cause of order of events. If they were developed post great war and then replaced by the subach, I could understand it. However, that's just not the way it's shown in FS2. Prom-R comes after the subach, and it seems quite unlikely to me they'd give subaches to new recruits if they were only in limited production - and they sure wouldn't make you wait until you're flying a heavy assault fighter to get the PoS-R. And the tech database claims the subach sidearm is the standard weapon from the beginning of FS2. There are certainly no shortage of them laying around.
*shrug* the only real possible explanations I can come up with for the Prom-R are:
A:) Someone said to command "This civil war has been going on for quite some time, could drag on longer, or worse, could degenerate into a second round of the Terran-Vasudan war. We've got all this old Prometheus manufacturing equipment around, and we've figured out how to make a working, if not wonderful, weapon with it. Better to be prepared just in case, neh?"
B:) Someone said to command "Hey, I want to sell you a bunch of lasers. Come visit me on my space yacht, prostitutes and liquor on me, including some ultra-rare real earth vintages."
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Or [v] fudged the tables, that's the one i'm personaly sticking with.
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Now here's the question I was thinking: Why use the Prom-R versus the Avenger, the main weapon at the time the Prom-R was developed? Basically, because it packs a bigger wallop per shot, and does slightly more** shield damage over time.
You never know, the Prom R might have been chosen for completely different reasons. As the tech entry clearly states, the GTW-15 Avenger is a projectile weapon, based upon some big honking 45mm rounds, while this is may appear an outwardly better weapon, the industrial base for both the Vasudan & Terran civilisations took a mighty blow from the loss of Sol & VP, and the subsequent fracturing politically of the entire sector would have only compounded this damage. The Avenger may have been in use for a little while after the end of the Great War, but really, why devote a sizable portion of weapons production to Ammunition for the Avenger (that's not even bringing the logistics of moving the 'Rounds around) when you've got perfectly fine Energy Weapons that require no Ammunition at all (going on the assumption that they found an alternative gas to Argon, and thus would be considerably easier to Transport - evidenced by the presence of...that...gas freighter...the name escapes me)...and that's my two cents, well, around 7 cents really...where's my change dammit...!
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Why use the Prom R over the avenger? At one point in FS1 they called Promethus the next generation Avenger, I inferred Argon from that.
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Prometheus is beter than the Avenger, yes, but the Prom-R isn't.
Avenger:
$Mass: 0.4
$Velocity: 525.0
$Fire Wait: 0.25
$Damage: 16
$Armor Factor: 1.25
$Shield Factor: 0.85
$Subsystem Factor: 0.35
$Lifetime: 1.9
$Energy Consumed: 0.30
Prom-R
$Mass: 0.2
$Velocity: 450.0
$Fire Wait: 0.45
$Damage: 18
$Armor Factor: 1.1
$Shield Factor: 0.8
$Subsystem Factor: 0.35
$Lifetime: 2.0
$Energy Consumed: 0.60
The faster projectile speed of the Avenger makes up for the geater lifetime of the Prom-R. The slightly greater armor and shield factors combined with the greater fire rate of the Avenger compensate for the Prom-R's greater overall dammage figure. On top of that, the Avenger has a lower energy drain factor and a higher projectile mass. Give me an Avenger over a Prom-R any day.
I'd quote the figures for the Prom-O, but I don't have them at hand. All I've got is those of the Prom-S, which has already been established as being different from the original as far as the tables are concerned.
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Avenger isn't in FS2 though, is it? So odds are that all FS1 weapons tbl data has to be taken with a pinch of salt when being compared to the stats of a weapon intended to be - and be balanced for - 30 years in the future.
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Besides, they had already begun replacing the Avenger with the Maxim.
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
The faster projectile speed of the Avenger makes up for the geater lifetime of the Prom-R. The slightly greater armor and shield factors combined with the greater fire rate of the Avenger compensate for the Prom-R's greater overall dammage figure. On top of that, the Avenger has a lower energy drain factor and a higher projectile mass. Give me an Avenger over a Prom-R any day.
I'd quote the figures for the Prom-O, but I don't have them at hand. All I've got is those of the Prom-S, which has already been established as being different from the original as far as the tables are concerned.
I'd gladly use the FS1-era Prometheus over the FS2 Prometheus anyday.
FS1 Prom
$Velocity: 450.0 ;; speed of the weapon (initially) -- may or may not change
$Fire Wait: 0.3 ;; in seconds
$Damage: 20
$Armor Factor: 1.3
$Shield Factor: 0.7
$Subsystem Factor: 0.35
$Lifetime: 2.0
$Energy Consumed: 0.40 ;; Energy used when fired
Might not do as much damage as the S or go as fast, but the firewait is somewhat better and the energy use is much less.
Besides, they had already begun replacing the Avenger with the Maxim.
The Maxim isn't worthy to take the place of the Avenger. The Maxim is simply a rapid-fire cheat gun for a little fighter to utterly neuter large ships from distances where they can't even be touched. The Maxim needed some serious balance issues fixed--reduce the lifetime or the velocity and the range would not have been so extreme.
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
Prometheus is beter than the Avenger, yes, but the Prom-R isn't.
*snip*
Give me an Avenger over a Prom-R any day.
Your (and [v]'s) figures for the Prom-R are wrong. :D
(Sometimes it's fun to be stubborn.) :p :drevil:
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Banshee blew anyway.
Avenger + Prometheus = w1n.