Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rictor on June 20, 2005, 09:04:03 am
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http://washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050618-115936-3506r
I must say guys, it sucks to be you. Is Blair off his medication or has he just gone completely batshit insane?
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Naw, it's because Darth Blunkett has taken his place at his side as his apprentice. He was always bat**** insane.
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Sounds like a Blunkett special.
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Hey, at least they're in their real uniforms this time. Unlike during the coal miners strikes where they were sent in dressed as police.
Is it possible to get a visa to stay in tenerife while remaining a british citizen? I could happily run my business from there and be able to avoid these idiots.
Edit: On a more serious note, this simply is what it looks like - facism.
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They're opperating in Brighton eh? Should be interesting... I think I'll go take a look some time and let you guys know how it is :)
In all honesty though, I'm glad. There are some complete ****ers on the streets these days, the drunks and the violent idiots who've been allowed to run riot as opposed to being given a firm smack in the face as they so rightly deserve. I rather wish the army was allowed to intervene with them - just to show them what it feels like to be the ones on the recieving end of some unpleasent violence and behaviour.
That said though, something tells me this is just the start of something bigger. We'll see...
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Deploying the army at home, during peacetime, is just about the biggest no-no you can commit in a democracy. There needs to be a crystal clear division between the army and the police.
If you do it, it needs to be for a damn good reason, and not merely to keep a few drunken teenagers in check. It happened only once in Canada, but that was during the "October Crisis" in the 1970's, that involved numerous kidnappings and bombings by a local terrorist cell.
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<---- *starts singing "Sunday, bloody Sunday"*
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The army soldiers have NO powers at all, they are there as a mediating presence.
The Royal Millitary Police have always had police powers in this country (they as an organisation of enforcing civil order predate the real police).
theres a reason for this that the gov doesnt want to admit to, the police have become so mired in pointless paperwork, idiotic directives and a general malaise they cant even deal with the firday night pissed yobbery.
The RMP are simply going to act like the police used to be able to and as such deal with the oiks in a quick and common sense manner without having to file 300 pages of documentation in triplicate.
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All in all it's just another brick in the wall
*Strums guitar*
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This acutally seems like a good idea to me. We're talking MP's here, not standard soldiers. They already have some police power, and will patroll unarmed. That means that unless some ****head decides to start fighting, they'll be mainly there to give the police more eyes. A good thing if you ask me.
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Except MPs are going to be a lot more violent than PCs, and have a different perspective on justice and the law. What works in the army is not what works in a free society.
You cannot deploy the forces designed to protect the population, against that population, without essentially creating a state of civil war.
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Actually there will be normal squadies out and about (only in barrack towns) in some areas BUT this isnt anything new, youve always had squads roaming
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Neither MPs or regular Army troops are AFAIK trained in the application and details of civillian law; the rights of the individual prior, during and after arrest, for example.
The problem with 'removing paperwork' by using MPs (for example) is that you are also risking removing accountability or oversight. That's one of the reasons, i believe, the military isn't used for these tasks. If they have a shortage of people, they should recruit more policemen. If it's down to too much paperwork, fix that problem. But they can't claim it's a good idea to compund the mess with 2 disparate groups of law enforcement, trained in very different ways.
(for example - who has the final say in policing in this type of case - the constable or MoD?)
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We currently have the highest number of serving policemen in the history of the United Kingdom.
Keeping that in mind, as yourself why else do you need the army on the streets except for emergency control of the people? Something is coming. Something that's going to cause riots - and this is preparation.
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edit: mother****ing double post... someone kill dynamic.gamespy!
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Well, considering how Blair killed the last EU balance session i guess you're going to join again with your former colonies ;)
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On the subject of MPs, they operate a lot in Portsmouth (where I go to University) because of the naval base there. I have to say.. it really does work quite well.
Any fights that do break out are dealt with incredibly quickly, and I for one have always felt safe wandering the streets in the area.
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At a time when the British Army is suffering some serious funding shortfalls too.
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No worries. If worse comes to worse, the U.S. W1LL L1B3R4T3 j00!11!1oneone1!
:p
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I thought that said uninformed soldiers, not uniformed...
Seriously though, this is typical Blair reactionism to Media Hype, because the rag-papers have been going on about the terror of hoodies, Blair has, as usual, gone off like a cheap firework.
It's funny, I think hoodies look more like little groups of Jawas out trying to sell droids, but to each their own I guess ;)
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I'll never look at a ned the same way again...
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Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
No worries. If worse comes to worse, the U.S. W1LL L1B3R4T3 j00!11!1oneone1!
:p
I believe a resounding "f*ck off" is in order. :p
I think that the govamint's time would be better spent looking at getting the regular plod to do their jobs properly. Make "Community Support Officers" useful, get rid of the mountains of paperwork, and let them get on with catching the little bastards who are causing the trouble.
Kalfireth's observation is interesting, but I think that it's probably to do with the RN not wanting to have stories in the papers about ratings getting into fights all the time, rather than anything else.
vypre: I try not to look at all - they're most unsightly...
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
I believe a resounding "f*ck off" is in order. :p
It's OK. We know that when you say bad things, you really mean "OH PLEASE, U.S., WE LOVE YOU! COME TAKE OUR OIL (OR IN THIS CASE, SCONES)!"
We'll be right over!
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Is public drunkeness a real serious problem there these days? I know the English drink a whole lot and while the Americans drink alot there isn't anything in their beer so it just never gets to the same levels.
Lots of people are drinking tons here too but I don't hear of too many problems...
Media hype or a legitimate problem? I understand there's been lots of rule changes regarding pubs and hours recently too (I follow the BBC alot).
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From what I gather, the English have the worst problems of binge drinking on the planet at the moment. Where other countries drink to socialise - and consider it quite pathetic for someone to get drunk doing it - the English actually set out to get drunk as quickly as possible.
That seems to be quite true.
What also seems quite true is that there is a lot of street violence these days. Luckily I'm in the right age bracket that means I have to worry about it a bit less now. But even in busier areas of towns at night you still find problem makers.
I'm still not entirely sure how the problem would be best fixed at the moment. My idea was the following: Every drunk teenager who has to have medical treatment such as a stomach pump recieves a flat fee of £100 ($150) for instance to recieve the treatment. Every thug who causes trouble finds themselves doing either long stretches of community service, prison time or is made to make large repayments to those he affected by his actions.
The idea being that it makes being an drunken idiot / street violence such a costly and troublesome activity for those who might do it that pretty quickly they find they simply can't afford to do it anymore. All state benefits (such as recieving money for unemployment) should also be withdrawn. Effectively - if you screw with society - you are cut off from it.
Harsh? Perhaps. But as it is - it's the thugs and drunks who get away with anything - and the middle class who have to foot the bill for it (as well as putting up with it).
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It's 'cos there's harly any coppers and if there are they just cruise round in Astras or sit behind CCTV (and who cares about that ?)
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
From what I gather, the English have the worst problems of binge drinking on the planet at the moment. Where other countries drink to socialise - and consider it quite pathetic for someone to get drunk doing it - the English actually set out to get drunk as quickly as possible.
Umm... College?
:nervous:
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Well.. yeah, I might be wrong - this is mostly what I gather and what I've observed.
Indeed, I suppose I'm part of the problem, I have drank to get drunk before. But I'm not violent by nature - I guess I have that ounce of self control that those who're being labelled "yobs" lack.
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
From what I gather, the English have the worst problems of binge drinking on the planet at the moment. Where other countries drink to socialise - and consider it quite pathetic for someone to get drunk doing it - the English actually set out to get drunk as quickly as possible.
That seems to be quite true.
What also seems quite true is that there is a lot of street violence these days. Luckily I'm in the right age bracket that means I have to worry about it a bit less now. But even in busier areas of towns at night you still find problem makers.
I don't have a statistics to back me up, but that can't possibly be true. Ever heard of these guys?
(http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/russia/story/train/vladivostok.vote/russia.vladivostok.jpg)
Hell, all the Slavic peoples are drunks, big time. And not beer either, home-made moonshine. Either the problem is far worse than I can imagine, or Britain has very low standards as to what constitutes a real problem.
Originally posted by Kalfireth
I'm still not entirely sure how the problem would be best fixed at the moment. My idea was the following: Every drunk teenager who has to have medical treatment such as a stomach pump recieves a flat fee of £100 ($150) for instance to recieve the treatment. Every thug who causes trouble finds themselves doing either long stretches of community service, prison time or is made to make large repayments to those he affected by his actions.
The idea being that it makes being an drunken idiot / street violence such a costly and troublesome activity for those who might do it that pretty quickly they find they simply can't afford to do it anymore. All state benefits (such as recieving money for unemployment) should also be withdrawn. Effectively - if you screw with society - you are cut off from it.
Harsh? Perhaps. But as it is - it's the thugs and drunks who get away with anything - and the middle class who have to foot the bill for it (as well as putting up with it).
Like what's the typical person we're talking about here? Is it more along the lines of getting drunk and robbing a store, or getting into fights behind the bar and roaming the streets singing or what? I don't know how bad it must be that it seems all of Britain, even the normal, intelligent people, is in an uproar.
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A lot of the problem was proliferated by the policy of complete inaction that was adopted for a long time. It's not so much that drunk people cause problems on a regular basis, as such, but more like drunk and anti-social people have been allowed to become part of the 'scenery', so there are areas where you just 'don't go' at night without expecting to see or hear something unpleasant.
A lot of this has been because the legal system has given minor troublemakers so many legal nooks and crannies to hide in that they almost never get bought to justice, we're so busy trying to 'understand' their problem with us, and yet take no steps to make them understand our problem with them.
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Originally posted by Flipside
A lot of the problem was proliferated by the policy of complete inaction that was adopted for a long time. It's not so much that drunk people cause problems on a regular basis, as such, but more like drunk and anti-social people have been allowed to become part of the 'scenery', so there are areas where you just 'don't go' at night without expecting to see or hear something unpleasant.
It's the same in every country, only quite a bit worse. It's a part of life. I don't have any problem with that as such, I much prefer it to having Town X (insert current place of residence) become like Switzerland, orderly and sterile.
Ah, I'll stop now, it's not even my country.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Like what's the typical person we're talking about here? Is it more along the lines of getting drunk and robbing a store, or getting into fights behind the bar and roaming the streets singing or what? I don't know how bad it must be that it seems all of Britain, even the normal, intelligent people, is in an uproar.
Go into any major city centre after closing time, and it'll be full of people near-paralytically drunk; some of those will be starting fights (perhaps in gangs), vandalising in various ways, getting raped (mostly the girls....), or being left unconscious in the gutter with alcohol poisoning. And liver damage in later life (with various other alcohol related diseases).
Go into the suburbs, and it's similar but is less concentrated; there'll be areas (parks, outside shops) where you risk being bottled for simply walking past (most often these will be the underage drinkers; some as young as 12 have been caught, or died from alcohol poisoning IIRC). Noise pollution is also kind of a problem here, although it's minor compared to the other consequences.
I don't know what the statistical scale of the problem is in terms of drunks - to -violent incident terms; but from my perspective binge drinking is a big problem. Scotland is pretty much the sick man of europe in this respect, and it's heightened because there is a drinking culture here (albeit I'm not sure how different that is to the rest of the UK). Although we are -seemingly-much less inclined to football hooliganism than the English (in spite of the odd problem last season).
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Let me give you a couple of examples...
Last week, a bunch of youths filmed themselves shooting a girl in the leg with an airgun using the video camera on their mobile phone, for a laugh.
On the way home from work the other day, some schoolkids were happily making themselves vomit over the bus-shelter seat, for a laugh.
It's only a tiny percentage of the youths in whole that do this sort of thing, but when you are sitting on a bus and don't know whether one or more of the kids drawing graffiti on the window behind your head are a part of that percentage or not, it can make you feel kinda paranoid.
Blair is playing up for the cameras at the moment, 'Yob culture' is all over the newspapers. It's not nearly as big a problem as it's made out to be, but it does need dealing with, and the more the papers popularise it, of course, the more people hear about it and think 'Hey, I could do some 'Slaphappy TV' with my mates!'. Stamping down on people is not the way to do it though, but it may be the only short-term fix.
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So basically the Brits are girl-raping, head-bashing, wall-defacing ****heads when they're drunk? :p
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You brits are showing a worrisome lack of the value of respect in your culture...
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
So basically the Brits are girl-raping, head-bashing, wall-defacing ****heads when they're drunk? :p
If you read the Daily Mail.
In reality; some of them. Flipside is right; it is a tiny minority, and it's down to the media and politicians playing it up (plus the fact these peeps tend to gather together in clumps), that makes it seem like an epidemic.
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Respect went out of fashion with hats...
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Originally posted by Zarax
You brits are showing a worrisome lack of the value of respect in your culture...
That's the trouble... not all of us do. Unfortunately of course it's the football hooligans that go abroad and start fights, the kids who rape their class mates or teachers, the stabbings and the gun incidents.. they're the ones that get noticed.
To be honest though, they don't seem to be getting any better. That's cause enough for concern for the rest of us who don't especially want to get stabbed when they go to the pub with their friends!
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I wouldn't completly trust the source on this. The Washington Times is full of right-wing rubbish. Some of it may be true, but I doubt it is being accuratly reported. It's like expecting a mainland chinese newspaper to accuratly make a report about Taiwan.
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
That's the trouble... not all of us do. Unfortunately of course it's the football hooligans that go abroad and start fights, the kids who rape their class mates or teachers, the stabbings and the gun incidents.. they're the ones that get noticed.
To be honest though, they don't seem to be getting any better. That's cause enough for concern for the rest of us who don't especially want to get stabbed when they go to the pub with their friends!
Sure I didn't meant that all brits go and become hooligans and drunkards (I lived in Reading for some time and it was quite a good place imho), but from your and Aldo's words it sounds like the government is trying to compensate for the lack of a strong social reaction on the phenomena.
Especially the schoolmates raping bit leaves me shocked a bit as it almost sounds like a normal, daily problem there.
Here (aside from the fact it would appear on TV) boys like that would get a very, very troubled life as the people themselves would try to find the responsible and act (usually by calling the police, but in some part of the country there's still a tendency to self justice, even without guns) accordingly...
Somehow, I feel it's more a byproduct of the city environment rather than the alcohol alone...
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Originally posted by Kosh
I wouldn't completly trust the source on this. The Washington Times is full of right-wing rubbish. Some of it may be true, but I doubt it is being accuratly reported. It's like expecting a mainland chinese newspaper to accuratly make a report about Taiwan.
The Washington Times pulled the report directly off of the Sunday Telegraph. It's written at the top.
Um... I should point out schoolkid rape... very rare. But it's big news when it happens as a result.
The government isn't compensating for any lack of social concern, but polaying off what there is. There are some areas where there's not the faith in the authorities to do stuff, and combined with (usually) poverty and lack of alternatives, that's where kids will tend to get into drinking and possibly crime.