Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: General Freak on July 11, 2005, 12:20:15 pm
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Introduction:
For all you Star Wars fans out there, I have some shocking news! Palpatine could very well be Anakin Skywalker's father and Luke Skywalker's grandfather! Remember: all information used in this thread has been taken from official sources, but the conclusions drawn are all made by me, so don't blame George Lucas (for this thread, at least).
Everything I got here is from the second trilogy, but the first 3 movies are mentioned a little bit, though nothing from them has been used to explain why Palpatine could be Anakin's father. A lot of what I write here is based on assumptions that could be true or false, due to the limited information we have from the movies.
Now, to understand what I've written, you must have a pretty good knowledge of the Star Wars universe and all 6 films. In fact, don't even think about continuing reading if you haven't seen any of the films (including episode III) because this thread contains some big spoilers.
Episode I:
The Trade Federation blockade Naboo. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, who have failed in their negotiations for Naboo, convince Queen Amidala to leave Naboo for Coruscant. Their ship, however, is forced to land at Tatooine, for a new hyperdrive. It is there that they meet Anakin Skywalker and his mother.
Shimi Skywalker told Qui-Gon that there never was a father for Anakin, that he was just conceived out of the blue. Qui-Gon himself wondered if Anakin was not created by the midichlorians themselves.
Meanwhile, the Jedi council is surprised that the Sith re-appeared suddenly and weren't extinct, as they thought they were. Since the Sith number only two, the Sith lord has to do some dastardly scheming in order to let the Sith power grow without the Jedi knowing. What exactly did he plan? That'll be told later.
The final senes of Episode I shows Obi-Wan defeat Darth Maul, thus gaining the rank of Jedi Knight and the right to train a padawan: Anakin Skywalker. The death of Darth Maul and the training of Anakin is VERY, VERY, important.
Episode II:
The Clone Wars were very important for Palpatine, with Palpatine fighting for the Republic and Darth Sidious for the Separatists. The fact that Anakin and Padme falls in love and are then separated for long stretches of time during the Clone Wars is also quite important.
Episode III:
Anakin has some pretty nasty dreams about Padme dying in child birth. Obviously, he wants to prevent this, making his attachment for Padme his greatest weakness, and an easy target for Palpatine.
Palpatine tells Anakin, in a theatre, that there was once a Sith lord, Darth Plagus, that could influence the midichlorians themselves and save the lives of his friends and loved ones. He manages to convince Anakin that the Jedi will be unable to pull off such Force tricks on Padme, and that only the Sith can teach one to influence the midichlorians like this.
General Grievous and Darth Vader share many things in common. Both are more machine than human, and both have been saved by 'modern medical technology'. Or have they...?
Anakin fights Obi-Wan and ends up losing the greater part of his body, as well as most of his skin. We don't know exactly for how long he stayed there near the lava, but when he was 'saved' by Palpatine, he was already in a pretty bad state. The birth of Luke and Leia, and Vader's operation, took place simultaneously (as far as I know from the movies). Padme, it is said, died of a broken heart. While this is very romantic indeed (mmm, that's right :p), dying of grief is very difficult, if not biologically impossible. Yes, she was more than incredibly upset and sad, but maybe, just maybe, someone or something pushed her over the edge?
Episode IV:
Luke Skywalker destroys the Death Star by shooting a pair of photon torpedoes in a way not even a computer could do. How? Ben Kenobi was with him in the X-Wing. How? The Force is a mysterious...er..force.
Episode V:
Vader and the Emperor agree to convert Luke to the dark side of the Force. In his duel with Luke, Darth Vader tells him that he's his father. He wants Luke to join him and rule the galaxy together, father and son.
Episode VI:
When Vader threw Palpatine down that big, deep shaft in the second Death Star, he was already seriously wounded from the Emperor's Force lightning. Luke was worried that taking of Vader's helmet would kill him, but Vader didn't mind. Did he really think he deserved to die, or was it something else that made him unafraid of death?
Main argument:
I believe that Darth Plagus is Darth Sidious' old master. By killing his master, he, supposedly, gained Darth Plagus' powers, or he killed him thinking he could get his powers (they're the Sith, after all). With himself as the undisputed master of the Sith, Darth Sidious, who must've been a heck of a lot smarter than Plagus, realized that it would take quite some while to get the Sith back on top. He trained someone in the ways of the Sith, named him Darth Maul, and started using his newly found power over the midichlorians.
Sidious knew that the Sith needed to grow, but having more than 3 Sith at the same time would be too dangerous. The Jedi and Sith fighting and Force techniques are very similar and each could be adapted for the other. Why not let the Jedi train a young, inexperienced padawan for him, so that he could then get rid of whoever was his current apprentice, and take the Jedi as second Sith instead? Darth Sidious knew that Jedi start at a very young age because young children were 'purer' and 'better learners' than adults and teenagers.
Converting a padawan or a Jedi that started from a very early age would be too hard: they would not budge from their Jedi principles. And besides, Darth Sidious needed a capable person, one who was naturally talented with the Force, not some 'normal' kid picked up by some Jedi recruiter in the streets of Coruscant.
On which planet does the Republic and the Jedi council have little or no influence in? Tatooine. We don't know much of just how much Darth Plagus or Darth Sidious could do with the Force. But if they could turn back death, they can also create life. Darth Sidious influenced the midichlorians, with his knowledge of the Force, to create Anakin Skywalker and make Shimi his mother. Since he was created by the midichlorians themselves, Anakin (and all his children) would obviously have a very large potentional with the Force. Now, he just needed to be trained.
To be trained, he had to be picked up by some Jedi, at a late age. Therefore, Darth Sidious planned the Trade Federation's blockade, because he knew that Jedi would come to Naboo's aid. He instructed the nemoidians to kill off the Jedi (he secretly knew that couldn't possibly succeed) in order to force them onto the planet. He also knew that, once on Naboo, the Jedi would want to take Queen Amidala to Coruscant. He allowed this to happen, but not before planting a hyperdrive that would malfunction (he probably [and that is a big assumption, I'm afraid]) instructed all the droid fighters to go for the hyperdrive and then it would not surprise the ship's crew if the hyperdrive started to work badly). The safest planet for Amidala, Darth Sidious knew, was Tatooine.
Ben Kenobi was able to talk to Luke, despite being dead, and I think that Darth Sidious made Anakin believe that he would marry her the moment he put his eyes on her. He probably would've fallen in love with her either way (otherwise, it would be a pretty bad love story...I wouldn't trust in the Force when asking someone out :p) but maybe Sidious made Anakin's love even stronger by telling it to him in his dreams or some kind of limited mind control.
Darth Sidious knew Obi-Wan's potentional strength with the Force, and that Darth Maul wasn't skilled enough to beat him, not if they were both using the dark side of the Force (Obi-Wan was obviously very angry, because of his inexperience, that Qui-Gon was killed). With his anger, which he could control because of his virtue, and his skill with the Force, Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul and was then able to take Anakin as his padawan and train him.
It's obvious that Darth Sidious continued to influence Anakin. It was Sidious that gave Anakin the dreams of his mother and Padme dying. Because he knew his mother was going to die, Anakin went to Tatooine. One event led to the next, and suddenly we have a lot of sand people dead. Episode II was Anakin's first step towards the dark side, if only for a moment. Sidious must have wanted to see how his future apprentice is shaping up. Why Sidious wanted to give bad dreams about Padme to Anakin is obvious. His fear for Padme's life is his weakest spot, and it enabled Sidious/Palpatine to convert him much more easily. Why Palpatine let Count Dooku die so easily in episode III should be pretty clear by now.
How in the world does General Grevious stay alive? His equipment may be advanced, but I think that it is Darth Sidious' knowledge of the Force and influence of the midichlorians that General Grevious is alive. Also, Palpatine probably killed off Padme, and blamed it on Anakin, using the Force. She wouldn't have died, but she was certainly very sick. Because of her 'broken heart', Palpatine was able to do to Padme what he could never do to a fully healthy person: take away her life with the Force. General Grevious' and Padme's examples both make it perfectly reasonable to assume that Anakin Skywalker was also hopelessly beyond the reach of medicine, and needed the Force. All this time, Darth Vader has stayed loyal to the Emperor, even though he knew he didn't kill Padme (despite being told he was the killer), that none of Padmes friends or the Jedi could have killed her, and that only Palpatine was evil and strong enough to do so. The Emperor held a vice-like grip around Vader's own life, and it was this fear for his own life that Vader never rebelled against him master.
Nevertheless, Anakin Skywalker is (probably) the Chosen One. There is still good in him, and when Luke (and maybe Leia) made that good come out, Vader stopped caring for his own life and decided to kill the Emperor. With Palpatine gone, so would the influence of the midichlorians Palpatine had. Darth Vader, without Palpatine, died of his original wounds in the duel on Mustafar. Why didn't Vader gain Palpatine's powers like with the case of Sidious and Plagus? Because Vader turned back to the light side, as a Jedi, and not a Sith.
Conclusion:
I think this idea is a bit far-fetched, but all of the bits of the movies make sense if put together this way. There may be some bits of information from either books or other sources, but, as far as I know, nothing important has been omitted from the 6 movies.
This also means, however, that Sidious is not Anakin's biological father, but he just told the midichlorians to create him. He made the midichlorians create him the way he wanted, I think, but Anakin has no real father. Only his mother.
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Aside from the stretching of plausability in how much Palpatine/Sidious knew about what was going on at any one time in any one location, I agree.
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So whenever we have bad dreams the sith are doing it?
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You're insane, but I think its entertaining. 8 out of 10.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Plagueis
It turns out that many ppl have thought about this before me (see 'Possible Connection to Anakin Skywalker' in the link). It could even be that Darth Plageius created Anakin.
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Star Wars sucks. :p
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
HAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHA
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[color=66ff00]He's a Vorlon, they say head bending stuff like that all the time. ;)
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I've heard the same thing before, admittedly, a lot less well fleshed out. :p
Anyway, dunno. Would've been nice if Lucas actually cleared this up somehow in Episode 3, but apparently plot coherency was not one of his major goals with the new movies.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I've heard the same thing before, admittedly, a lot less well fleshed out. :p
Anyway, dunno. Would've been nice if Lucas actually cleared this up somehow in Episode 3, but apparently plot coherency was not one of his major goals with the new movies.
He deliberatly left it a mystery
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Exactly. I guess I don't see much point in doing something like that, especially considering how much of the story wasn't shown on screen. :wtf:
Still, would be funny to see Luke's reaction to it. "Is there any ****ing person in this galaxy that isn't part of my family?"
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My first thought was that Lucas might`ve wanted to make a sequel and shock the audience once again with this, but now that we know, it won`t be a surprise
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Here's my opinion on this piece of writing:
This theory is not only yours about Palpatine being Anakin's father. As far as I remember, Ace came up with a similiar theory. At any rate, this is also mentioned in the Star Wars wikipedia (http:/starwars.wikicities.com), go to Darth Plagueis' and Darth Sidious' entries and read them.
About the dreams: I don't think Palpatine could influence Anakin's dreams about his mother and Padme. Remember that Anakin was on Naboo when he got the nightmare about his mother dying, far from the Emperor. I think that rather than influencing the dreams, he only took part in the death of Padme. I don't think Palpatine has anything to with Shmi Skywalker's death.
One more note: Anakin fulfilled his prophecy being the Chosen one when he dropped the Emperor into the Deah Star II generator and let Luke remove his helmet. The Sith were extinguished this way.
Obi-Wan killing Darth Maul would have been impossible if Maul hadn't been so overconfident. In face-to-face combat, Darth Maul is superior to Obi-Wan. It was only Obi-Wan's luck that Maul did not notice Qui-Gon's lightsabre still lying on the floor. I don't think Palpatine was counting on Darth Maul's failure, instead, he wanted Dooku to be felt, later in Episode III.
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Palpatine = Sith = big fat layer = he lied to Anakin about preventing death
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]He's a Vorlon, they say head bending stuff like that all the time. ;)
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:nod:
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@TopAce: I thought that once Vader converted back to the light side of the Force, he once again returned to being Anakin Skywalker the Jedi knight, and stopped being a Sith. He died a Jedi, not a Sith.
Also, that Darth Maul is better than Obi-Wan is, of course, possible. If he was over-confident, maybe it was still Sidious' aim? He told Maul that 'the Jedis are of no match to you' when it turned out Obi-Wan was. It would be rather embarassing if he was wrong (although Maul did kill one of them).
The fact that Anakin killed all those sand people did little to turn him to the dark side (it happened years before he turned), and helps my theory very little, so whether Sidious influenced those dreams or not probably doesn't matter in the long run.
I went to #starwars and gave them the link to this thread, for some comments, and they told me more about Darth Plageius and how many people have come up with this theory. It's nothing original anymore, but at least I wrote it in total ignorance of the rest and did something imaginative for once, and it all just makes this thread convergent to the rest.
@Thrasman: Not all Siths lie. Remember that they are only the arch-enemy of the Jedi, who aren't necessarily good, and they're all part of some sort of sect doing things with the Force, which isn't necessarily bad. In the movies, they're potrayed as the bad guys (they ARE the bad guys), but they wanted nothing more than to seek revenge against the Jedi (and gain full dominance in the galaxy, but that's only their sideplot). I don't think Darth Plageius is a lie. There isn't anything to prove either for or against him being a lie (he is mentioned in episode III and in some Star Wars books, after all), so anyone is free to make the assumption that he's for real, which I have, and anyone is free to make the assumption that's he's fake. Depending on what your view is, the whole story will change for you (kinda :P), so it's really your choice. I don't recall Lucas ever touching on this subject about Plageius being real or not.
@Coolmon: Hehe, that last line of your post reminded me to write that the title of my thread is to grab attention, but since neither Plageius or Sidious actually had sex with Shimi (if one of them did, then..er...hm..go figure :P). Lucas has always insisted that Anakin was created purely by the Force. So though either Plageius or Sidious used their powers to create Anakin, neither of them are his true father. (As I wrote in the last few lines of this thread).
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Now what would Darth Vader say if he reads about all these theories?
Oh yes....,
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Darth Plagus isn't real. Palpatine made him up just so he could push Anakin more to the dark side. Anybody with evidence to the contrary, please do bring it up. I wouldn't mind hearing a second opinion.
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You make many references to the impossiblity of Padme dying from a "Broken Heart", outwardly this may just be romantic drivel, but the Human Brain has an amazing influence on the body in matters such as this. I've read numerous counts of people suffering injuries from Placebos, and i believe a man has indeed been killed by a Placebo because his mind thought - without a doubt - that he was dying, so don't discount 'death by broken heart' so easily...
Originally posted by TopAce
Obi-Wan killing Darth Maul would have been impossible if Maul hadn't been so overconfident. In face-to-face combat, Darth Maul is superior to Obi-Wan. It was only Obi-Wan's luck that Maul did not notice Qui-Gon's lightsabre still lying on the floor. I don't think Palpatine was counting on Darth Maul's failure, instead, he wanted Dooku to be felt, later in Episode III.
Actually, he died because Obi-wan achived what is called a "CHEAP HOLLYWOOD SHOT" - meaning, he should have gotten his ass kicked, but because he was the 'good guy' he won...Darth Maul could kick his ass any day of the week and then some...
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Originally posted by Omniscaper
Now what would Darth Vader say if he reads about all these theories?
Oh yes....,
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
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Originally posted by Mefustae
You make many references to the impossiblity of Padme dying from a "Broken Heart", outwardly this may just be romantic drivel, but the Human Brain has an amazing influence on the body in matters such as this. I've read numerous counts of people suffering injuries from Placebos, and i believe a man has indeed been killed by a Placebo because his mind thought - without a doubt - that he was dying, so don't discount 'death by broken heart' so easily...
Actually, he died because Obi-wan achived what is called a "CHEAP HOLLYWOOD SHOT" - meaning, he should have gotten his ass kicked, but because he was the 'good guy' he won...Darth Maul could kick his ass any day of the week and then some...
That wasn't a "CHEAP HOLLYWOOD SHOT". Kenobi won his duel with maul after being enraged when maul killed his mentor and friend.
@ General Freak: :wtf:. 'Nuff said.
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Originally posted by InfernoGod
Darth Plagus isn't real. Palpatine made him up just so he could push Anakin more to the dark side. Anybody with evidence to the contrary , please do bring it up. I wouldn't mind hearing a second opinion.
You just said the word of the day!!
[color=66ff00]Editied for good taste.
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Originally posted by General Freak
Luke Skywalker destroys the Death Star by shooting a pair of photon torpedoes
:doubt:
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:eek:
HEATHEN! *Brings out the pitchforks, torches, and gallows rope and starts handing them out*
Originally posted by InfernoGod
Darth Plagus isn't real. Palpatine made him up just so he could push Anakin more to the dark side. Anybody with evidence to the contrary, please do bring it up. I wouldn't mind hearing a second opinion.
"The best lies are made with truth."
It's not like they go around using their 'Darth' names in public.
"Hello. I'd like to get a speeder license."
"All right - what's your name?"
"Darth Sidious!"
"Hmm...is that with a C?"
"No!! An S!"
"I'm afraid you're going to have to spell that for me sir."
"S-i-d-i-o-u-s."
"Hmm...I notice we have another Darth on here. You wouldn't happen to be related to a "Darth Plagus", would you?"
"No! I've never heard of him in my miserable life."
"Are you sure? He named a 'Darth Sidious' as a dependant."
"No, it must be a mistake. Now give me my speeder license."
"OK, I notice you graduated from the Sith school on Yavin IV...your paperwork seems to be in order. Well, all I need now is your holograph."
"What? Nobody told me about this."
"Don't worry, it'll only take a second. Please open your hood sir."
"No! Take the holograph of me with the hood."
"I'm sorry, sir, it's planetary policy."
"Well, I'm not taking off my hood."
"Sir, if you won't let down your hood, I can't give you a license."
"You WILL give me a speeder license."
"Sir, please, there are other people waiting."
"Bah! No matter...you are no match for the POWER of the DARK SIDE of the FORCE!!!! You will regret this...maybe not today...or tomorrow...or a couple months from now...maybe not before you die in that horrible incident. (I have forseen it) But someday! Someday, I will rule the galaxy! And on that day, young..."*squints*" Shmi, you will rue this day!!! Er...do you have hoverbus schedules here?"
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Actually, he died because Obi-wan achived what is called a "CHEAP HOLLYWOOD SHOT" - meaning, he should have gotten his ass kicked, but because he was the 'good guy' he won...Darth Maul could kick his ass any day of the week and then some...
Unfortunately, this is true.
So, you do admit that Maul was better than Obi-Wan.
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Okay, let me just illustrate this for you; we have some bloke with a Ponytail, and who finds Jar Jar humerous...on the other hand, we have guy with a Double-Edged 'Saber, horns coming out of his Red & Black head, and who could hold his own against two Jedi...at the same time dangit!
The only reason Obi-wan was victorious was because he's the good guy...seriously, who you would you put your money on in a fair fight?
...uh...y'know, i really don't want to be pulled into this sort of arguement, so i'm going to go now...
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Am I the only one who found it odd that Darth Maul lost even though he "had the high ground" :)
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seriously, who you would you put your money on in a fair fight?
Jar-Jar.
Of course, I'd be betting how many sections he'd be sliced into before Obi-wan and Maul finally went at each other.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Am I the only one who found it odd that Darth Maul lost even though he "had the high ground" :)
Obi-Wan and Maul were at the same height when the battle ended. In EpIII, Anakin's limbs had already cut when the two combatants were at the same height.
This isn't actually a response to the quote above, here it is:
Higher ground doesn't really matter in this case, Maul did not notice the danger posed by Obi-Wan until the was slashed.
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@Carl: Yeah, yeah, I meant proton torpedoes.
They sound the same. One must've ripped off the other. :P
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*Meanwhile, on the Bridge of the Enterprise*
Mr. Sulu - "Captain, we're picking a strange object on Sensors!"
Cpt. Kirk - "What is it Mr.Sulu? Is it those darn Klingons again? I hate those guys!"
Mr. Sulu - "No sir...it...it appears that Star Wars is infringing on Copyright again!"
Cpt. Kirk - "...those BASTARDS! Open fire! Proton Torpedoes! Full Spread!"
Mr. Sulu - "...uh...Captain..."
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http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=150
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:lol:
Pretty good one Trashman :)
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Seen it.
It's been posted on these forums before.
Now, plz, stay on topic.
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[me]
TOPIC
I am on topic.
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Originally posted by General Freak
Now, plz, stay on topic.
You mean target? But they're coming in too fast. We need to pull out. ^_^
I don't think Palpatine could've possibly orchestrated everything. Some things had to be beyond his control, like the dreams for instance. I think he's getting more credit than he deserves.
Maul became overconfident during the duel and overlooked Qui-Gon's saber. In other words, Obi-Wan got lucky. Yes, there is such a thing as luck! Plus he was the good guy.
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Originally posted by EtherShock
You mean target? But they're coming in too fast. We need to pull out.
Eww...
I think this is being read way too far into. It's obvious Lucas doesn't know what's really going on anymore, so he makes **** ambiguous so he can have people like you debate and argue and eventually write the story for him.
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No! That's not true! That's impossible!
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General Grevious Eps.3 < Geneal Grevious Clone Wars
Still pretty cool though. That Pray Mantis style combat position he takes at the start of the fight with O.B. is pretty god damn cool.
On the subject of Palpatine, I thought he was twisted and disfigured 'cos he was so unspeakably evil (like the Dark Side was consuming him or somethin') none of this
"I have been left scarred and disfigured yadda yadda ya"
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Palpatine had a mask, which made him look like a normal human. When Windu blocked his Force Lightnings, the mask was melted.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
General Grevious Eps.3 < Geneal Grevious Clone Wars
Still pretty cool though. That Pray Mantis style combat position he takes at the start of the fight with O.B. is pretty god damn cool.
Seriously, that is just sooo true. The General Grevious in the Clone Wars 'toon could take down three Jedi at once, he should have been able to take down Obi-Wan in the first three seconds of their fight...i guess Windu putting the squeeze on him in the last episode of Clone Wars really put him out of action...
...And just after Palpatine was disfigured, did anyone else find that lisp he had for a few seconds bloody mundane...? :p
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Grievous lost A) because Obi-Wan was one of the greatest Jedi the galaxy ever saw, B) because he couldn't use the force, and probably C) because he was trained by Count Dooku.
Oh, and I refuse to acknowledge the Clone Wars cartoons' legitimacy because the whole idea of a Star Wars cartoon makes me want to throw up.
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And don't forget that Obi-Wan had been in fencing training since a very young age, but Grievous had only learnt fencing for a very short amount of time. It's a matter of experience.
I only have to give a reasonable explanation why it was able to kill Stass Allie and three other Jedi whose name I can't remember, one apprentice was named Sha'a Gi, and the other two... wait... one another Council member, maybe Oppo Rancis. I have to look this up. Immediately :)
Got it:
Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seirr, the battle of Hypori
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Originally posted by Roanoke
Still pretty cool though. That Pray Mantis style combat position he takes at the start of the fight with O.B. is pretty god damn cool.
God's last name is NOT damnit, damnit! (You didn't read that, UT... :p)
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Yes it is. Its full name is: Jethro-Jeddediah-Sue God Damnit
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"Bizarre" comes to mind...